Unleashing the Creative Power of System Choreographers

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What's working on purpose anyway? Each
week we ponder the answer to this question.

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People ache for meaning and purpose at
work to contribute their talents passionately and

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know their lives really matter. They
crave being part of an organization that inspires

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them and helps them grow into realizing
their highest potential business can be such a

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force for good in the world,
elevating humanity. In our program, we

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provide guidance and inspiration to help usher
in this world we all want Working on

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purpose. Now. Here is your
host, doctor Elise Cortes. Welcome back

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to the Working on Purpose Program.
Thanks for tuning in again this week.

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I'm your host, Doctor Release Cortez. Join you live from Dallas, which

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is home base for me. If
you don't know me yet, I'm a

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management consultant specializing in meaning and purpose, organizational logo therapist, inspirational speaker,

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social scientist, and author. My
team and I help companies discover and articulate

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their purpose to thread it through their
culture and operations. We work with forward

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thinking or forward reaching organizations to develop
inspirational leaders who career cultures where people actually

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want to come to work and do
their best, and we provide programs like

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the gravir gusta that enable individual team
members to discover and unleash their passion and

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purpose at work to Cantilz's fulfillment,
engagement and productivity. You can learn more

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about us and how you can work
together at at leastcoretest dot com, orgustodashnow

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dot com. With us today is
Dan McClure. He's the founding partner of

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Innovation Ecosystem. He is working to
make system innovation a core creative capability that

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is enthusiastically embraced and widely practiced.
He has authored a number of papers on

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system innovation methodologies and agile enterprises.
It is also actively engaged with programs addressing

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cutting edge issues such as scaling,
localization, and dynamic collaboration building. We'd

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be talking today about innovation and disruption
and how leaders and companies can take a

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vastly different approach to them than they're
perhaps previously considered. He started today from

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Bloomfield Hills, Michigan. Dan whilcome
to working on Purpose. It's great to

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be here, Lis, Thanks very
much, You're so welcome. Glad our

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passive crossed and when I started to
dig into your work, Dan, I

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really got excited. And first we
have to talk about the title that you've

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given yourself that you've discovered. F
it's best Systems choreographer. Let's start there.

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Yeah, so the core of the
work that we do is really focused

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on how do you change the systems
that exist around us? And this doesn't

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mean like, you know, how
do I remake the world economic financial system.

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We are surrounded by systems of all
types. So the system that allows

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you to get a coffee in the
morning, the system that educates your children,

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the system that provides you an opportunity
to create value in the job that

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you're working at. These are all
systems built out of people, organizations,

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resources, technologies, and in many
ways, we haven't focused very much on

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those. From the perspective of innovation, we focus on individual pieces and parts,

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but we haven't really stepped back and
say how do we intentionally shape these

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things? And so when we started
looking at, you know, what's the

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job of doing that, we realized
there wasn't a good job title in the

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commercial business sectors of things. So
we started casting about for where do you

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have these jobs where people are working
with complex, messy, not entirely well

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defined challenges And it was the Arts, so we stole the title of choreographer,

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and the idea of system choreographer is
really somebody who shapes complex, messy

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things in ways that end up producing
beautiful value. How's that? I like

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it? Well? And as I
told you before we got on air,

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I am a systems person. I
like systems, I think in systems,

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and so I really was drawn to
that whole notion, which is part of

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the reason I wanted to have you
on the show in case you were wondering,

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Yes, right, just in case. So part from my vantage point,

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Dan, I'm so up to this
notion of trying to help the world

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create organizations where people want to come
to work. As you heard of the

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introduction, and I had Marcus Buckingham
on my show probably over a year ago.

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We were talking about how so many
companies are designed to be efficient and

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effective for the benefit of the organization
at the expense of the human soul.

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And so you know, I'm very
interested in this notion of you know,

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how you're out to intentionally change systems
because I really do believe that the pandemic

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has helped to see how wrong the
world of work is for so many people.

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So what's your perspective on this notion
of how many organizations are designed.

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But you know, I think in
some ways the organization gets a bad rap

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because the organization is only doing what
it needs to do to create the kind

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of value that it's bringing to the
marketplace. And if your organization is about

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efficiency and replicating a process and making
something work the same today as it does

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tomorrow and the day after that,
those jobs have to look a certain way.

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You know, they have to be
jobs that are designed around a box

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or around a you know, rigorous
definition of this is what you're going to

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do every day, day in and
day out. If, however, you

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say, the purpose of my organization
is to go out and create unique value

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in the marketplace, to bring together
different pieces of what's out there, and

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you know, either craft unique value
for different people or different organizations, or

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respond to changes in the market,
then the organization itself can be different.

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It doesn't have to be a machine
like set of gears and cogs that fit

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together. The organization can actually be
one where people are not only encouraged to

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be creative, but need to be
creative for the organization to do what it

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needs to do. So I think
the first thing to do is reimagine what

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you want to get out of the
organization, and then a lot of the

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other good behaviors to go along with
it. Mm. I like that,

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I really like that. And then
stepping into that hole, you said that

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really what you're really all about is
intentional changing of systems. So let's first

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start with when do we know when
does an organization start to recognize that it

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needs to change it systems? Are? What are the indications or the symptoms

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that it's time? M Well,
so you know, it can widely vary.

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You know, one is you look
up and you see a really big

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truck coming at you, and if
you happen to notice that you're about to

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be smashed by something, that's a
good sign that disruption is maybe in your

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future. And so, you know, for a lot of organizations, the

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trucks are coming at them. They're
about to be smashed by you know,

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potentially a you know, set of
small little competitors that are eating away at

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the bottom of their business, or
by some large competitor that's coming and transforming

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the business. But either way,
almost every organization is facing this ongoing truck

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and so you know, there's a
certain amount of you know, it's time

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when you're existing business model, when
your existing way of creating value in the

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market doesn't have any more many more
days left for it. So that's one.

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But there's another, which is you
look out there and you say,

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look at all these pieces, this
legos of the world that I could assemble

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in some unique and different way,
and you get excited by the opportunity,

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and I think, you know,
you can go that direction too, of

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just saying I can do so much
here if I just freed myself from what

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I'm already doing. Mm hmm to
know. So it's so interesting to me,

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Dan. So one of my most
detested phrases that I hear people say

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to me is, well, that's
just how we do things here our early

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How's I working for you? So
I'm so interested in this notion of you

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know, automated behavior. We all, you know, live with a lot

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of automated behaviors. And just a
really quick example to get our listeners and

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viewers into the space with me.
When I first moved into this home that

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I live in now some five years
ago, my daughter you would get out

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of the passer's seat of the car
and she'd walk across the lawn and got

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to the front of the house,
and invariably she would track blood into the

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house and I'd get mad about it. I'd be like, oh, there's

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blood in my clean house. And
you know, Dan, what I somehow

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realized was, gosh, you know, my driveway is pretty long, and

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if I actually pull my car up
so she's not just snuggling with the tree

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right here, but I pull her
up just a little bit further to the

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driveway, you guess what happens.
That passenger door aligns with the sidewalk that

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goes up to my house, and
my daughter can walk on that and not

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get mode of my house. It
was there the whole time, Dan,

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but I couldn't see it because I
automated behavior and habit of parking in that

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one same space. So I'm very
interested in, you know, how it

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is that we as individuals and how
organizations can start to get present to there

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are other ways of doing this.
I just didn't see it before. You

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know, I think it's a two
part process. You know. One of

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the phrases we use in system innovation
is if you're if it's hard, you're

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doing it wrong. The mere fact
that it's hard is indicative of there's something

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about the system that's pushing against you, that's working against you. And the

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nice thing is a system innovator is
that you've got the tools at hand to

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change things. You know. So
often if you're working within a highly structured

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w organization that doesn't allow much change, you don't have very many tools for

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making things better. You know,
in your example, you have the tools

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in place to you know, pull
the car forward. It's funny. As

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a system innovator, I was thinking, oh, the solution to that is

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to build a sidewalk from where her
daughter gets out, And so I was

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I came up with roughly the same
solution, but from a broader perspective of

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change. And I think this is
one of the things that's so freeing about

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once you realize that you can change
the systems is you don't have to be

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satisfied with oh, it's hard,
I'm just going to continue to do it

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wrong. You can say oh it's
hard, and I'm going to start making

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changes to the underlying pieces that make
that not work. So then if we

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step back a few steps, I
want to take us into where and I

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reached out to you and got so
excited about some of the work that you

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do. And one of the articles
that you have on LinkedIn that I think

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is just wonderful. It's called the
Creative Power of Big Problems. That's one

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of them that's listed. And what
I thought was so great and this is

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I'd like to unpack this and give
our listeners and viewers access to this because

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I think this would fundamentally change the
way organizations go about solving problems and innovating

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if they were to embrace even a
portion of this. So what you talk

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about here is, you know,
instead of you know the idea, the

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conventional path is rush to solution,
where you have you know, you've got

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an idea and you take it to
address this, make it into a solution,

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and then you have another of better
options to look back at the specific

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cause. But the fundamental shift is
to understand the system behind the problem.

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And so what I thought was so
cool about what you've done here, Dan

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is you said the first step is
to see the problem as a symptom of

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underlying system issues and then go explore
the big picture of the system behind the

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problem and then see the whole challenge, imagine a better solution et cetera,

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et cetera. So the part that
I thought was so exciting was Wow,

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stepping into that space and how do
we get ourselves that it is in the

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first place was so mind modeling and
was right there in front of me.

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But I didn't see that until I
read your article. Well, and you

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know, I think there's a lot
of natural human emotions that lead us away

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from that. So we tend to
want to simplify things, and so you

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know, the rush to solution is
often one of we know what the answer

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is, and if we just simply
like accepted that knowledge, we could begin

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action and all of those things feel
really good, right. We eliminate ambiguity,

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we begin to act. You know, it feels like this is the

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kind of thing that really proactive people
do. On the other hand, it

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ignores the fact that oftentimes there's a
great deal of opportunity in taking that stepping

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back, embracing the complexity. And
you know, we talk about the seduction

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of simplicity. City is just so
seductive because it feels like you can do

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things, It feels like you can
eliminate risk. But by embracing complexity,

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you can see first a bigger problem
and that might sound awful, but what

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it really means is that you can
embrace a more exciting, in dynamic challenge,

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something that potentially has greater impact.
You know, one of the experiences

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I had in the past was working
with a media company and they wanted to

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go and improve the websites for their
television stations, and this was, you

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know, seem like a good investment. As we asked them about, you

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know, what's the future of those
television stations, what they said was,

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well, they're all going to be
bankrupt in five years. Oh. Their

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desire to rush forward and improve the
websites of the television stations basically ignored the

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fact that there was this much bigger
challenge out there that they could have embraced,

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and if had they embraced it,
they could look at potentially more powerful

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solutions. So instead of merely you
know, improving the website, they could

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look at, you know, all
sorts of things that they might bring together

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in this new exciting world of media, and they would also have many more

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options if things went sideways. You
know, if all you're doing is improving

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the website, then that's really the
only thing that you can adjust and refine.

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But if you've embraced the bigger problem, you can have lots of different

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directions you can go. And this
idea of complexity being a positive, powerful

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thing is really quite exciting once you
start getting your arms around it. I

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love that. So here's what I
like to do if we can, Dan

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is we're going to go grab our
first break here in just a second.

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And while we're on the brink,
if you could take that beautiful mind of

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yours and you're an example of an
organization that has to use this fundamental shift

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methodology that you were talking about,
that would be really lovely if if you

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could chew on that. So let
us grab our first break. I'm your

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host, doctor Elise Cortes. We
are on the air with Dan McClure,

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a system integration architect, strategist and
system choreographer. We've been talking a bit

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about his space and his interest in
intentional changing of systems. After the break,

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we want to hear that example.
We're also going to get into disruption

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state with us. We'll be right
back. Doctor Elise Cortes is a management

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consultant specializing in meaning and purpose and
inspirational speaker and author. She helps companies

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visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and
develop purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures

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that elevate fulfillment, performance, and
commitment within the workforce. To learn more

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or to invite Elise to speak to
your organization, please visit her at Elisecortes

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dot com. Let's talk about how
to get your employees working on purpose.

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This is working on Purpose with doctor
Elise Cortes. To reach our program today

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or open a conversation with Alease,
send an email to a lease Alise at

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00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:22.600
Eleasecortes dot com. Now back to
working on Purpose. Thanks for staying with

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us and welcome back to the program. I'd like to invite you to check

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out my book that I put out
last in November. It's called Purpose Ignited,

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How Inspiring Leaders Ignite Passion at an
LA cause. It's on Amazon.

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I wrote that book to awaken readers
to their passion and purpose and help transform

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them into inspirational leaders who enlighten their
workplace and elevate the contribution of business to

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all at stakeholders. I also use
the content as a basis for my vitally

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Inspired Leadership program and grab your GUSTO
programs if you're just joining the program today.

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My guest is Dan McClure. He's
the founding partner of Innovation Ecosystem.

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He is working to make system innovation
a core creative capability that is enthusiastically embraced

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and widely practiced. He has authored
a number of person systems, innovation methodologies,

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and agile enterprises. It is also
actively engaged with programs addressing cutting edge

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issues such as scaling, localization,
and dynamic collaboration building. I'm your host,

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doctor Release Cortes. So while we
were on Breakdan, did that mind

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of youewers come up with an example
you can share with us on how to

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take us through that methodology? Yeah, and actually I'm going to offer you

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a cobbled together example of several different
organizations because their challenges were all related.

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And I think it's it's really interesting
when you see an entire industry getting reinvented

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to see how organizations respond to that. So, in this particular case,

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the industry is education, and you
know, there's been a number of different

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angles that folks have taken as far
as you know, how do we respond

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to you know, the kind of
obvious disruptions that we see around the world

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In some ways. The story of
education is just so exciting right now.

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You know, the level of education
in countries is much higher than most people

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realize. You know, the vast
majority of children are being educated today.

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The level of college education is dramatically
higher in the current generation than it even

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was a generation or two ago.
So there's a lot of growth in education.

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But that does open the question of
if you're an organization whose job and

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whose business is education, what do
you do? What do you do in

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this new marketplace? And so one
of the organizations that we've worked with in

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the past had developed technology that was
to be used in the classroom, and

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they had done all the right things
from an innovation perspective. So we know

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as innovators growing up over the last
ten years, that you're supposed to develop

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minimum viable products, you're supposed to
fail fast, you're supposed to engage the

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people who are going to use the
product, and you know all of these

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best practices around user centered design.
And they did all of those things,

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and they took their brand new product
and put it into the classroom and none

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of the teachers used it was entirely
not adopted. And what they realized was

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the challenge was they had developed a
great product, but the system around the

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product, all the curriculum that needed
to be integrated with the teachers, the

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pedagogy that the teachers would apply to
that, the just general training of everybody

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to how to use this technology in
a classroom environment. None of those things

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had been fully explored, and alt
the organization needed to make a deep pivot

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from being simply I'm a product organization
delivering this piece of technology. Too,

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I'm an organization that is going to
transform the way the classroom works. And

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as they moved into this space,
what they realized was it wasn't just about

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the teacher. It was also about
the school administration, and about the nature

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of the content, and about the
integrating with the parents themselves. And so

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they expanded the size of the problem
that they were looking at and in the

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same time created many more opportunities for
them to create value. Instead of just

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being I'm delivering a iPad onto your
desk, they became an organization that really

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could influence a whole bunch of different
pieces of the school environment and how children

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learn. M that's yummy, Dan, That's really yummy. That is really

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interesting. So you know that sort
of speaks to They tried maybe you know,

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the conventional path plus a better option, but then they really had to

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go into that fundamentalship you were talking
about and really step into or step back

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and look at what got us into
this mess in the first place. Where

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did this problem get generated? And
what was the system that helped create that.

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That's really interesting, Dan Well,
and it's it's not even just limited

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to what created the problem. The
flip side of this is where are all

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the other opportunities? You know,
once you start saying I can embrace this

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big space, I can start thinking
about how could I create new sources of

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content that were exciting and new and
different than what I had before. How

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could I engage parents in different ways? So it's not only your problem gets

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nearlier, but your toolbox gets so
much bigger. And that's what I find

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really exciting is that, you know, when I set down and think about

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some of these challenges, it's like
when I think about the bigger system,

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I have so many more things that
I can do. Mm hm. So

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recall before we came on the show
that I told you that one of my

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big interests and intents and this this
program as well as the work that I

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do is helping to elevate consciousness in
leaders in businesses et cetera. I am

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a conscious capitalist. I believe very
much in the notion of a business serving

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all of its stakeholders well. And
that takes being intentional and to elevate consciousness.

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And I feel like what you're talking
about your work is very much smacked

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down that line. So as you
were talking down, tell me if I

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this analogy that I'm about to share
with you brings true, or if you

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want to tweak it somehow. But
as you were sharing that last example,

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what I got was, you know, using this methodology that you're talking about,

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where you then you go back and
you step back and really look at

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you know, where did this problem
come from? What was this that generated

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it? And then of course what
are the opportunities that we have going forward.

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I almost felt like it's like kind
of doing like time travel. So

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it's like I'm standing here today in
twenty twenty one, but I have the

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abilities somehow to step back to the
like to the nineteen sixties. And when

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I walk in that room and I
see, you know, this educational place

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that you were talking about, I
see it from these eyes, and then

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so I can evaluate, Oh,
I see where that start, where those

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things came from, and where the
problems arose. And wow, from this

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point I can see so much more, like there should be paintings on the

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walls over here, and there should
be this and that. So it sort

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of seems like that to me.
It's like you're using the ability to time

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travel almost so you have the ability
to see with twenty twenty one eyes what

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the problem or whatever the situation was, say in nineteen sixty, and then

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you come back and you iterate and
start to apply solutions and create from those

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from these fresh eyes. Is it
something like that? Something? But I'm

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gonna flip your your analogy around.
I love to time travel, but I

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tried time travel forward. So instead
of spending lots of time imagining what the

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nineteen sixties look like, I try
to understand the system as it exists today,

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and then I say, five years
from now, what would a system

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look like that was so much better
than this? What would the future system

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look like? And this is some
This is sort of the other half of

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the challenge that most people don't fully
embrace. They get sometimes a really good

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understanding of what the underlying problem is, and then they start playing whack a

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mole. So they pick a particular
problem and whack at that, and then

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they pick another problem and whack at
that. But there's no intent around how

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all these different actions that they're doing
are going to fit together to create a

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better future world. A system innovator
steps back and says, I now understand

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how the system works. I'm now
going to time travel into the future and

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I'm going to imagine a system where
all the pieces come together. You know,

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we're working right now with some folks
that are trying to reimagine power systems

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in response to climate change, and
this is a case where there's so many

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different stakeholders and you can't imagine half
the solution. You can't imagine the solution

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where power gets generated and power gets
used unless you've figured out how the power

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is going to move or how the
bank financing is going to work. So

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a future system is one where all
the pieces work together to produce the type

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of outcomes and value that you want. And that ability to time travel into

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the future and paint those systems to
paint a complete picture of what would work.

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That's really what a lot of what
the job of the choreographer is is

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to be able to see that future
system. Mm hmm. Okay, so

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now that gets me into the space
when I when, ever, I want

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to talk about disruption, So you
know, it's okay, are we ready?

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Can we get there? So talk
to me about productive disruption and creative

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disruption? M well, So,
first off, disruption is good, and

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it is good because it implies that
you're breaking free of the status quo.

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So productive disruption is breaking free of
the status quo in a way that produces

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better value. So you know,
one of the dangers I think sometimes if

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you find yourself confronted with a really
bad situation and a bad system, is

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that the first inclination is to just
go and beat on it with sticks and

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you know, tear it down.
And the problem is, systems don't naturally

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reassemble themselves in a better way.
So a much more powerful form of disruption,

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a much more productive form of disruption, is where you imagine that future

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system and then you start saying,
Okay, I know where I want to

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go. What pieces of the house
do I need to start pulling down now

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to get to that future version that
I want? Interesting? Very interesting when

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you were talking about the education example. I thought that was really interesting because

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as somebody who you know, I
would say that I really do traffic in

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the educational sense inside organizations. Right, That's a large service that I'm providing.

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I've also taught in universities as well. I've never taught online, but

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I feel like there is there has
been such an opportunity to really look and

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examine at that particular industry for disruption. Can you weigh in on that?

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Oh? So, what I find
interesting is there's a lot of folks that

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when you ask them about disrupting an
industry, they imagine making the status quo

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players uncomfortable and sort of that's their
definition of disruption is they've put a p

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under the mattress of the status quo
players. For me, in this age,

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this moment of time, one of
our great luxuries and pieces of excitement

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is that there is so much that
can be done that is just radically different.

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So the thing that I've been playing
with lately, and you know,

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I've been chatting with people on and
off, is just one of the things

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that's going to happen is we're going
to have self driving cars. Right,

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that's going to happen. Once you
have self driving cars, you actually don't

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need to have car ownership anymore because
you can just uber everything. What could

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you do in a self driving car? So you could have parties or something,

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but you could also have like little
self driving universities. Absolutely, I've

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totally thought about this then totally on
this. Yes, So why is Stanford

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or the University of Michigan or Rice
in the business of selling education? Why

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isn't Ford or Toyota. And if
you were going to suddenly say Toyota is

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now a key deliverer of educational content, who could they partner with? That

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would be you know, really exciting
and different. So you know, could

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you imagine, for example, content
being generated by every business that wants to

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hire somebody for their particular business.
And so if you now want to go

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work for you know, Bob's Auto
t and submission, you can get your

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auto transmission course from your forward car
as you're driving along. I mean,

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just you begin to see completely different
sets of collaborations and partnerships and opportunities to

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do things. And I think that's
the disruption that gets me really excited.

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You know, I'm not worried about
making the status quo uncomfortable because in all

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likelihood they're going to be obsolete.
It's what's the big new thing you're going

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to invent instead? Sounds good to
me, Dan on that No. Listen

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throughout our last break we've bet I'm
at least Corte as your host. We've

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been on the air with Dan McClure's
system integration, architecture strategists and system choreographer.

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We've been talking about about both system
changing of systems as well as one

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of his favorite favorite topics, disruption. After breaker and talk more about innovation

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and how we can teach organizations and
their team members to be more embracing of

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disruption, change, and innovation.
Stay with us, We'll be right back.

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Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant
specializing in meaning and purpose and inspirational

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00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:11.000
speaker and author. She helps companies
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop

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00:31:11.079 --> 00:31:18.200
purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures
that elevate fulfillment, performance, and commitment

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00:31:18.279 --> 00:31:22.519
within the workforce. To learn more
or to invite Elise to speak to your

386
00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:27.359
organization, please visit her at Eleasecortes
dot com. Let's talk about how to

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00:31:27.400 --> 00:31:40.000
get your employees working on purpose.
This is working on Purpose with doctor Release

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00:31:40.079 --> 00:31:44.920
Cortes. To reach our program today
or open a conversation with Elise, send

389
00:31:44.920 --> 00:31:52.680
an email to Elise Alise at Elisecortes
dot com. Now back to working on

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00:31:52.759 --> 00:31:57.319
Purpose. Thanksteresting with us, and
welcome back to working on Purpose. One

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00:31:57.359 --> 00:32:00.039
other bit of news that I want
to share with you is that the anthology

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that I spent the last two years
curating. It's a collection of twenty five

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stories of women from around the world
that I found and enrolled. It's called

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00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:13.279
Passionately Striving and Why in Anthology of
women that persevering mildly to live their purpose.

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00:32:13.319 --> 00:32:15.000
It's on Amazon now and I'm so
proud of it I could bust because

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00:32:15.119 --> 00:32:19.920
essentially, all these women are sharing
their very, very intimate stories of what

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00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:22.920
they went through to be able to
discover and then serve from their purpose.

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And so it's meant to be something
that is educational as well as inspirational.

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If you're just joining us today,
my guest is Dan McClure. He's the

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founding partner of Innovation Ecosystem, and
he's working to make system innovation a core

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creative capability that is enthusiastically embraced and
widely practiced. He has authored a number

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of papers on systems, innovation methodologies
and agile enterprises, and is also actively

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00:32:44.680 --> 00:32:49.119
engaged with programs addressing cutting itge issues
such as scaling, localization, and dynamic

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00:32:49.160 --> 00:32:52.519
collaboration building. I'm your host,
doctor Lee's Cortes. So for our last

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segment here dan as I said,
really, I want to talk more of

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it. If there's anything else you
want to share about disruption, and then

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if that bleeds over into innovation,
so that we can start to situate a

408
00:33:01.799 --> 00:33:07.480
space that leaders and organizations can create
a place where more of their team members

409
00:33:07.680 --> 00:33:12.640
can embrace what it is that you're
out to evangelize in the world. Yeah.

410
00:33:12.680 --> 00:33:19.440
So I think a big part of
system innovation begins by realizing that you

411
00:33:19.680 --> 00:33:24.359
want to embrace disruption. Then you
want to step us away from the seduction

412
00:33:24.440 --> 00:33:30.680
of simplicity that you want to say, complexity is where I see my opportunity,

413
00:33:31.599 --> 00:33:38.720
and that step is actually a big
step for organizational leaders. It's a

414
00:33:38.720 --> 00:33:45.279
big step for the folks that work
inside an organization. So in many ways,

415
00:33:45.960 --> 00:33:51.000
the making an organization a place where
people can embrace this kind of work

416
00:33:51.559 --> 00:33:57.519
begins by the organization as a whole, particularly their leadership, embracing not only

417
00:33:57.559 --> 00:34:04.119
the necessity of disruption, but the
opportunity of disruption and clearly communicating that across

418
00:34:04.160 --> 00:34:09.920
their organization. And you know,
there's an interesting book that recently came out

419
00:34:09.960 --> 00:34:19.159
that talked about how one negative thing
is more powerful than five good things.

420
00:34:20.519 --> 00:34:27.079
This is particularly true if you're asking
somebody to embrace something as uncomfortable as diving

421
00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:30.800
into a burning building, which is
in many ways what doing disruption can feel

422
00:34:30.880 --> 00:34:37.000
like. And you've got to be
very consistent in conveying this message. You

423
00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:44.320
know, it's we're on board with
complex, big challenges, and we're going

424
00:34:44.360 --> 00:34:50.000
to drive forward into this new space. And we think that there's great opportunity

425
00:34:50.039 --> 00:34:52.320
here and that's just got to be
reinforced over and over and over again.

426
00:34:52.559 --> 00:34:57.840
But that gets you started, and
then you've got the groundwork on which to

427
00:34:57.880 --> 00:35:01.599
do the other work. So would
you say, Dan that you know part

428
00:35:01.639 --> 00:35:07.400
of this is is it starts with
just the story that we as individuals and

429
00:35:07.480 --> 00:35:12.039
we as companies tell ourselves about ourselves. You know, if we say we're

430
00:35:12.159 --> 00:35:15.440
creative, we're creative profit solvers,
we we we look for a new ways

431
00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:20.679
to do things, or we are
we're thinkers, you know, we really

432
00:35:20.719 --> 00:35:22.719
are thorough, we're systematic kind of
thing. I mean, it seems like

433
00:35:22.760 --> 00:35:27.800
it starts with just the way that
we talk about ourselves and so how do

434
00:35:27.920 --> 00:35:31.119
leaders socialize. Who's a team and
who are we together? Is that right

435
00:35:31.239 --> 00:35:37.079
or so? I think so.
But I think there's another piece that comes

436
00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:43.440
along with that. So I think
the message of we believe we are the

437
00:35:43.599 --> 00:35:49.360
kind of people who can do changes
to systems. You know that we can

438
00:35:49.400 --> 00:35:52.920
make many pieces come together. That's
an important belief you have to have,

439
00:35:53.000 --> 00:35:55.880
and you have to be able to
say that to yourself, both as an

440
00:35:55.880 --> 00:36:01.000
individualist and an organization. But I
also think you actually need to build the

441
00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:08.400
organization that has the structure, the
roles, the processes that support that belief.

442
00:36:09.360 --> 00:36:14.960
You know, if you basically tell
somebody you are now going to go

443
00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:20.920
out and be system disruptors, and
then you put all your processes in place.

444
00:36:21.360 --> 00:36:24.719
For somebody who's in a replicable job, it doesn't matter how much they

445
00:36:24.760 --> 00:36:31.559
tell themselves I want to be This
the actual organizational structure of bite back.

446
00:36:31.960 --> 00:36:37.000
So it's really I think a two
part thing. Get yourself with the right

447
00:36:37.039 --> 00:36:43.239
attitude and the right vision, but
also then build the structures within the organization

448
00:36:43.639 --> 00:36:46.320
that support that. Okay, So
since we're really in the part where we're

449
00:36:46.400 --> 00:36:50.320
kind of applying what we've been talking
about here, So what would an organization

450
00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:52.840
need to do, Like when you
say, you know, put those that

451
00:36:52.880 --> 00:36:55.400
structure in place, So like,
can you sketch that out for us?

452
00:36:55.440 --> 00:37:01.159
What would they need to address?
Well, I think part of it is

453
00:37:01.320 --> 00:37:07.119
realizing that it's something that the entire
organization does. You know, much of

454
00:37:07.159 --> 00:37:12.079
the innovation work that was done over
the last ten years sort of imagine that

455
00:37:12.159 --> 00:37:15.559
you could put innovation off in a
corner. So you could create an innovation

456
00:37:15.800 --> 00:37:20.119
lab, or you could do a
spin off, or you could make it

457
00:37:20.320 --> 00:37:27.679
a one week event where you had
a heckathon. And that idea of we're

458
00:37:27.719 --> 00:37:31.800
going to make innovation something that a
few people do, yeah, doesn't fit

459
00:37:31.880 --> 00:37:37.360
with the idea of system innovation.
The power of system innovation is that you're

460
00:37:37.400 --> 00:37:42.840
taking all the parts of the organization
and you're bringing them together to do new

461
00:37:42.920 --> 00:37:47.800
things. So that's the first big
thing is realizing this is something that's going

462
00:37:47.840 --> 00:37:58.039
to engage business and technology and outside
partners. Okay, the other piece then

463
00:37:58.280 --> 00:38:01.719
is that you've got to me sure
and empower people in the right way.

464
00:38:02.239 --> 00:38:07.239
You know, and we mentioned this
before that if you're measuring people on how

465
00:38:07.599 --> 00:38:12.639
rigidly they perform on particular pre defined
tasks, you're not going to be in

466
00:38:12.639 --> 00:38:17.039
a good position to evolve and do
the sort of adaptive learning that's necessary if

467
00:38:17.039 --> 00:38:22.519
you're going to change a big system. So you've got to put in organizational

468
00:38:22.599 --> 00:38:28.920
rewards that basically say, we see
this system that we're going to and we're

469
00:38:28.960 --> 00:38:34.719
going to reward you for moving us
towards this new complex idea, rather than

470
00:38:35.400 --> 00:38:39.320
we've got specific goals that we want
you to achieve next month or at the

471
00:38:39.400 --> 00:38:42.800
end of the year, et cetera, et cetera, and we're not going

472
00:38:42.840 --> 00:38:45.280
to pay attention to what's been happening
around the world, you know, we

473
00:38:45.519 --> 00:38:51.840
simply want you to accomplish your task. So then, of course that makes

474
00:38:51.840 --> 00:38:54.920
me want to ask you if you've
got an example of an organization that you've

475
00:38:54.920 --> 00:38:59.440
worked with, that you know of, that has done this kind of overhaul

476
00:38:59.559 --> 00:39:04.079
of their overall corporate entity or their
company entity to be able to enable this.

477
00:39:05.639 --> 00:39:10.039
Yeah, So I think there's a
lot of organizations that are pushing to

478
00:39:10.079 --> 00:39:17.239
do this right now. This work
began being labeled as digital transformation, and

479
00:39:17.599 --> 00:39:23.719
you know, oftentimes this sort of
more agile, adaptive approach was applied strictly

480
00:39:23.719 --> 00:39:30.880
to the technology groups and then it
was applied to we're going to integrate technology

481
00:39:30.960 --> 00:39:35.239
in with you know, more of
the business practices, et cetera. But

482
00:39:35.360 --> 00:39:44.119
there's really an organizational transformation movement right
now that is focused on broader adaptation of

483
00:39:45.079 --> 00:39:51.880
entire enterprises, and you know,
we're seeing it in really all types of

484
00:39:51.920 --> 00:40:00.639
businesses. So whether that's insurance companies, humanitarian aid organizations, even large organsizations

485
00:40:00.719 --> 00:40:07.320
like the u N are having serious
discussions about how do we respond at a

486
00:40:07.360 --> 00:40:15.159
system level across this entire complex organization
because the problems that we're facing are fundamentally

487
00:40:15.199 --> 00:40:21.880
these big complex system problems. Interesting, very very interesting. Yeah, organizational

488
00:40:21.880 --> 00:40:25.400
transformation is really really fascinating for me. And you know, I'll share an

489
00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:30.119
example from my vantage point in the
work that I've been doing as I'm working

490
00:40:30.159 --> 00:40:37.079
with a consulting client, small boutique
firm, and they really were attracted to

491
00:40:37.159 --> 00:40:40.159
work with me because they just recognized
that the ship was sinking and you know

492
00:40:40.199 --> 00:40:43.639
that they they really you know,
they need to be able to make some

493
00:40:43.679 --> 00:40:47.039
serious fundamental changes to how it is
that they do work together in order to

494
00:40:47.440 --> 00:40:52.000
you know, really remain a strong
provider of services in their industry. And

495
00:40:52.159 --> 00:40:58.400
so you know, they are keenly
sitting on the hanging on the edge of

496
00:40:58.400 --> 00:41:00.920
their seats. You know, Okay, how do we do this? How

497
00:41:00.920 --> 00:41:04.719
do we transform ourselves? And you
know, so like that pain that they've

498
00:41:04.760 --> 00:41:07.400
experienced has allowed them to step in
into the burning building that you're talking about.

499
00:41:07.519 --> 00:41:10.280
Right, I'm willing to go in. Right, It's it's that hard

500
00:41:10.320 --> 00:41:14.119
out here. I'm willing to run
into the burning building kind of thing.

501
00:41:14.719 --> 00:41:17.239
So it's interesting when you start thinking
about, you know, the things that

502
00:41:17.960 --> 00:41:22.920
push for that. So it seems
to me that maybe what you're trying to

503
00:41:22.920 --> 00:41:25.000
do in your work is to make
it so that we're not forced into that

504
00:41:25.079 --> 00:41:29.440
so much is that we opt into
it. It becomes more of the normal.

505
00:41:30.519 --> 00:41:35.960
Well, I've always been a big
fan of pull versus push. Absolutely,

506
00:41:36.239 --> 00:41:39.760
you know, if you're basically telling
somebody, you know, eat those

507
00:41:39.800 --> 00:41:44.400
Brussels sprouts, which by the way, I do not understand Brussels sprouts at

508
00:41:44.440 --> 00:41:49.599
all, but you haven't had them
done right this is what everybody tells me.

509
00:41:49.639 --> 00:41:52.079
But the truth of the matter is
they're just awful no matter what.

510
00:41:52.519 --> 00:41:58.400
Anyways, if somebody is telling you
to eat the Brussels sprouts, you know

511
00:41:59.079 --> 00:42:05.119
that's not You're going to be pushing
back against all their inclinations. If you

512
00:42:05.360 --> 00:42:09.960
find a here is something that you
can go towards, here is a reason

513
00:42:10.039 --> 00:42:16.679
that you want to do these changes
in adaptation, then you've got people solving

514
00:42:16.719 --> 00:42:21.760
a lot of the problems, helping
remove their own barriers because they see the

515
00:42:21.800 --> 00:42:25.119
thing that they want to do.
And I think this matter this is as

516
00:42:25.199 --> 00:42:30.920
true for organizations as it is for
individuals. When you find an organization that

517
00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:37.440
you can say, if you master
this capability of system innovation, you're going

518
00:42:37.519 --> 00:42:42.519
to be able to do new things
in your marketplace or for the people that

519
00:42:42.599 --> 00:42:46.800
you serve that you've never been able
to imagine before. That gets people excited.

520
00:42:47.039 --> 00:42:51.679
I think that's one of the things
that's really fun about doing this kind

521
00:42:51.719 --> 00:42:57.840
of work is watching people when they
finally it finally clicks for them that,

522
00:42:58.199 --> 00:43:06.280
oh, this complexity stuff actually makes
me more powerful and more creatively empowered in

523
00:43:06.320 --> 00:43:12.719
the market. That then gets people
excited about doing these things and it stops

524
00:43:12.760 --> 00:43:17.519
being a change management thing and becomes
how do we rod up this mountain and

525
00:43:17.639 --> 00:43:22.199
you know, take on these challenges. So what I like about that,

526
00:43:22.320 --> 00:43:25.519
Dan from you know, the human
element of that is that to me,

527
00:43:25.679 --> 00:43:30.960
that that just is all of that
just screams empowerment. It screams expansion,

528
00:43:30.119 --> 00:43:35.280
It screams you know, a team
connected and united, and and you know,

529
00:43:35.320 --> 00:43:37.239
we come out of this thing and
as we continue to journey, we're

530
00:43:37.239 --> 00:43:44.400
all elevated, We're bigger from that
experience. Yeah, I mean it's not

531
00:43:45.039 --> 00:43:49.719
you can't do system innovation with top
down control. You know, you can't

532
00:43:49.760 --> 00:43:55.199
do system innovation with cogs in the
machine. You need every actor to be

533
00:43:55.280 --> 00:44:01.800
empowered, to be part of a
dynamic system that's responding to opportunities. And

534
00:44:01.840 --> 00:44:07.000
so the very nature of the type
of thing that you're trying to do with

535
00:44:07.079 --> 00:44:12.360
this innovation being cross enterprise, being
very flexible and letting go of the status

536
00:44:12.480 --> 00:44:16.840
quo. This is something that empowers
people, requires people to be empowered,

537
00:44:19.440 --> 00:44:22.800
which is of course what I stand
for. I mean activating the human potential,

538
00:44:22.840 --> 00:44:28.159
the human element inside organization so that
they not only rise to their greatest

539
00:44:28.239 --> 00:44:31.800
level, but the organization wins too, everybody wins. Well, you know

540
00:44:32.519 --> 00:44:37.880
what I find so frustrating about sort
of the traditional reductionist, top down,

541
00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:45.400
controlled business model is that it doesn't
deliver all that great of value in the

542
00:44:45.440 --> 00:44:49.760
world. You know, if it
was, we were suffering through these miserable

543
00:44:49.840 --> 00:44:53.920
jobs, because this is truly the
best way to create value for the for

544
00:44:53.960 --> 00:44:58.239
the people of the world. You
know, maybe I could, I could

545
00:44:58.920 --> 00:45:02.719
be talked into that, but the
truth is that's really good if you're just

546
00:45:02.840 --> 00:45:08.760
replicating bars of soap. But you
know, in the reality is the opportunities

547
00:45:08.800 --> 00:45:14.000
and the needs, the problems in
the world today need a different kind of

548
00:45:14.039 --> 00:45:16.800
solution. So in so many ways
this is a win win. You know,

549
00:45:16.840 --> 00:45:22.360
we can deal with bigger, harder, more complex, pressing problems,

550
00:45:22.800 --> 00:45:27.519
and we can create a better workplace
that's more exciting and more energized. M

551
00:45:27.800 --> 00:45:30.280
m. Yeah. And so you
know you heard my introduction. That's what

552
00:45:30.320 --> 00:45:35.119
I'm out for is I want to
help create organizations where people actually want to

553
00:45:35.159 --> 00:45:37.400
come to work and do their best
and they become a bigger, better version

554
00:45:37.440 --> 00:45:40.480
of themselves. And so doing everybody
wins from that. And so what I

555
00:45:40.519 --> 00:45:45.159
love about what eure up to Dan
is I do think that you know,

556
00:45:45.239 --> 00:45:47.760
you're creating, You're helping to create
a space where people can play at a

557
00:45:47.840 --> 00:45:52.199
higher level. They can iterate themselves
in that process of serving to be able

558
00:45:52.239 --> 00:45:58.239
to innovate into disrupt and in so
doing it's enlivening for them and they grow

559
00:45:58.280 --> 00:46:00.719
into a bigger version of themselves.
Yes, you know. I think one

560
00:46:00.760 --> 00:46:07.880
of the things that's interesting is where
we began this work, like where this

561
00:46:07.000 --> 00:46:13.719
work really emerged as being necessary.
We're in the areas of humanitarian aid,

562
00:46:15.719 --> 00:46:21.760
social activism, you know, ecological
activism. You know, these were the

563
00:46:21.800 --> 00:46:28.159
big complex problems that weren't being solved, and so this was these types of

564
00:46:28.199 --> 00:46:36.320
practices, these system innovation practices were
necessary in those really big, messy challenges.

565
00:46:37.599 --> 00:46:43.360
I think that's indicative of just these
are the tools for doing really big,

566
00:46:43.400 --> 00:46:46.119
exciting stuff in the world, and
the fact that you know, commercial

567
00:46:46.239 --> 00:46:51.960
environments are not being disrupted, that
those trucks are coming and running over companies,

568
00:46:52.079 --> 00:46:57.039
or that those big opportunities. It's
almost like the commercial world is now

569
00:46:57.159 --> 00:47:01.000
beginning to get on board with the
same sort of buses and things that we're

570
00:47:01.119 --> 00:47:08.159
actually already being pioneered in the social
and the humanitarian space. That's so exciting,

571
00:47:08.639 --> 00:47:12.079
and there it is. Dan.
We've managed to go through the whole

572
00:47:12.119 --> 00:47:14.159
time on our show here, so
we've come to the end. I want

573
00:47:14.159 --> 00:47:16.000
to give you the chance to be
able to leave our listeners with what you'd

574
00:47:16.000 --> 00:47:19.679
like to leave them. Let's say, in under twenty seconds, with listeners

575
00:47:19.719 --> 00:47:22.360
across the globe, you know what
the show is about. How would you

576
00:47:22.400 --> 00:47:27.000
like to close? I would say
it's exciting to reinvent the world, and

577
00:47:27.239 --> 00:47:34.159
we are uniquely privileged as people to
live in an era where we're empowered to

578
00:47:34.320 --> 00:47:38.280
do that. So let's go out
and change things in a big, complex

579
00:47:38.760 --> 00:47:43.239
way. Sounds good. I'm in
Dan, thank you so much for being

580
00:47:43.280 --> 00:47:45.760
a guest. I'm so glad I
found you that you came on my radar.

581
00:47:45.880 --> 00:47:46.719
It has been a delight to talk
with you. And yes, let's

582
00:47:46.760 --> 00:47:50.800
go help change and elevate the world. It sounds good to me. Thanks

583
00:47:50.800 --> 00:47:53.320
alce So welcome listeners and viewers.
If you want to learn more about Dan

584
00:47:53.400 --> 00:47:57.880
McClure, his articles, or the
work he does, start by visiting innovation

585
00:47:58.119 --> 00:48:00.400
ecosystem dot com. Last week,
you've missed the live show, I can

586
00:48:00.400 --> 00:48:04.760
always catch av a recorded podcast.
We are on the Earth Rabbi doctor Baruk

587
00:48:04.800 --> 00:48:08.440
Halevi talking about his work in our
same field of logotherapy and unleashing the defiant

588
00:48:08.440 --> 00:48:13.360
power of the human spirit to transform
tragedy into triumph and darkness into light.

589
00:48:13.679 --> 00:48:16.960
It was an incredibly beautiful expos avist
brilliant mind, heart and soul that invites

590
00:48:17.039 --> 00:48:21.000
us all to travel inward and sabor
the journey. Next week will be on

591
00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:23.400
the Aera with Nikolai chen Nielsen,
who is the co author of Return on

592
00:48:23.480 --> 00:48:28.239
Ambition, a Radical Approach to Your
Achievement, Growth and well Being, talking

593
00:48:28.239 --> 00:48:31.039
about how to best steward our achievement
and how leaders can foster environments where ambitious

594
00:48:31.039 --> 00:48:34.960
people thrive. See you there.
Remember that work is at least a third

595
00:48:34.960 --> 00:48:38.320
of our life, So let's work
on purpose. We hope you've enjoyed this

596
00:48:38.400 --> 00:48:44.000
week's program. Be sure to tune
in to Working on Purpose featuring your host,

597
00:48:44.039 --> 00:48:49.400
doctor Elise Cortes, each week on
the Voice America Empowerment Channel. Together,

598
00:48:49.719 --> 00:48:55.119
we'll create a world where business operates
conscientiously, leadership inspires impassioned performance,

599
00:48:55.559 --> 00:49:00.960
and employees are fulfilled in work that
provides the meaning and purposepis they crave.

600
00:49:00.679 --> 00:49:04.239
See you there, Let's work on
purpose,