June 2, 2026

The Anti-Freedom Truth: Why Constraints Spark Breakthroughs

The Anti-Freedom Truth: Why Constraints Spark Breakthroughs
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If you hate rules, this episode might challenge everything you believe about innovation. Rules get blamed for everything—slow progress, lack of innovation, stuck teams. But what if they’re not the problem? In this provocative episode, Sheri Jacobs reveals how boundaries, when used intentionally, become the catalyst for clarity, creativity, and real progress. The breakthrough you want may be hiding inside the structure you resist.

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The topics and opinions express in the following show are

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solely those of the hosts and their guests and not

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be directed to those show hosts. Thank you for choosing

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What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the

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answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose

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at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their

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lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization

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that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their

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highest potential. Business can be such a force for good

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in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide

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guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we

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all want Working on Purpose. Now, here's your host, doctor

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Elise Cortes.

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Welcome back to the Working on a Purpose program, which

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has been brought to you with passion and pride since

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February of twenty fifteen. Thanks for tuning in this week.

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Great to have you. I'm your host, doctor Eluse Cortes.

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Most leaders are sitting on untapped human energy, and I

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help them unlock it. I'm an organizational psychologist, logotherapist, workforce

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advisor and the founder of Gusto Now. But the title

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I live by that's much simpler, is simply I traffic

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and energy, not the surface level motivation or another engagement initiative,

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but the deeper force what I call Gusto, the life

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force for performance that drives commitment, perseverance, and genuine ownership

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of his shared mission in the clients we serve. You

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can learn more about us on how we can work

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together at gusto dashnow dot com or visit my personal

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website at Leastcortes dot com for information on my speaking

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and books we have with us today. Sherry Jacobs. She's

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an author, keynote speaker, and innovation strategist who helps organizations

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unlock their creative potential by rethinking boundaries, risks, and leadership.

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She's the founder of Avenue m Group, where she has

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partnered with over three hundred organizations and surveyed over half

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a million people to uncover what drives real transformation and growth.

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She's the author of The Unexpected Power of Boundaries, Rethinking

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that the rules risk and the great drivers of innovation,

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which we'll be talking about today. Specifically, we're going to

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focus on the key drivers of boundaries, voice and permission

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to help leaders unlock and unleash more innovation in their organizations.

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She joins it today from Denver, Sherry, A hearty welcome

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to Working on Purpose.

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Thank you, Lisa. It's such a pleasure to be here.

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It's amazing as I want to celebrate this book that

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we were talking about before we got on air together,

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and I want to share just you know how much

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I got out of this, Sherry. I learned so much

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from your book, and one of the reasons I keep

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hosting the show is because it is that catalyzing learning

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engine for me. So thank you first for just bringing

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a beautiful, well written book into the world.

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Oh, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

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You are so welcome. And let's let our listeners and

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viewers understand a bit more of your background. I know

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it because I read your book, but let's hear about

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your background and where this book came from and why

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you were so compelled to write it. It's not easything

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to write a book, so let's hear the background.

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Absolutely so.

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Over the last sixteen years, as you mentioned in my introduction,

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I have run a research company, surveyed a lot of people.

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Five hundred thousand is a lot of people across every industry,

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and I kept seeing a trend show up and it

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was conorintuitive to what most people think. So most people

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are trying to drive growth, they're trying to make change happen,

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they're trying to be innovative. Yet something is missing. And

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from my research and from my own observations, and then

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also from my own creative pursuits, I discovered that it

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was not that unlimited freedom, but it was more having

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clarity around the space where you can play and explore

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and experiment. That actually was the most likely driver for

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people to see growth happen or to see change happen.

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And when it kept seen that trend over and over,

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I started collecting these stories and then writing the book

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actually came fairly easy.

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You know, I'm one of those people that you talk

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about in your book who chafes about the idea of

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rules and boundaries, and yet you have completely convinced me

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of their import so I'm in now, So I appreciate. Also,

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you know why you wrote the book and who's its

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FOREMANA love for you to just expand on this so

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people understand. But you talk about it's for people for

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teams that are hesitating to experiment, if your strategic plans

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sound bold but they stall on execution, feeling a bit

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more about who is this book for and who can

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who can help?

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Sure?

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Absolutely, so I really do see this book as for

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many different people within all different types of organizations. If

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you lead a team, regardless of the size the industry

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or how large of a company, you want to make

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sure that your team brings forward great new ideas. And

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yet you and you may walk into a meeting and

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say everything is anything's off the table. You can do

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any idea, bring me your best ideas or think outside

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the box.

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Right.

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We do that all the time, and the leaders who

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say it mean it. They really do want people to

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bring forth ideas like that, or they usually mean it.

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So your question was who is this for?

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And the problem is is that oftentimes the people fall

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into one of four quadrants when they are trying to

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bring fourth ideas. Either the boss says it, but there's

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no clarity around Okay, where's this space where I'm a

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lot of experiment or I'm not allowed. And so this

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is for those teams to say, Okay, fantastic, I'm going

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to bring ideas forward, but what are the edges?

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What are the boundaries.

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It's also to give tools to leaders who want to

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bring more out of their team. And they may have

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a team that has those ideas, but it's the clarity

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is there, but.

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They don't have to park, they don't know where to go.

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And so it is both for the leaders and for

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the team so that you can have better conversations and

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really bring forth more ideas.

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So I thought you supplied so many incredible examples, a

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couple of which I want to talk about on the program,

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but that really bring home the importance of this and

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I found it really interesting and fascinating how you anchored

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this in the import and role of fences. So maybe

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first can we talk about you know, the playground research

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that I'm not sure this person's how to say her

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first name, Jack Karava Goodman's study that was really fascinating

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the way that you laid out the import of fences

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in that study with regard to children and playing.

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Yeah, it's one of my favorites.

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And I even started the book telling an anecdote about

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my own daughter and having lived on the edge of

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a park backyard and extended into this park.

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And then when I came across the study, I'm like, oh,

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that makes so much sense.

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So there was a study that was conducted, and what

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the landscape architects student wanted to do was to see

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the power of boundaries and how it impacted how children play,

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how creative they were, how inventive they were. So they

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had to pre school teachers take kids to two separate parks,

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and both parks had swings, sides with chips and a

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big grassy area all around it. But the one difference

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is one park had a fence and the other didn't.

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And so we would think that when the kids were

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at the park with no fence, unlimited freedom and no rules,

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that they would explore and they'd run and they would

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be creative. But what turned out what happened is those

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kids stayed on the playground, and not just that they

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continued to do the same activity they do every time

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they go to a park. But when those exact same

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kids went to the other park a week later and

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there was a fence that was visible, the kids ran,

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they explored, they invented new games, they tried something, and

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if it didn't work, they abandoned it and tried something

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else because they knew the safety of how far they

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could go. And so the fence isn't the limitation. The

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fence actually is the freedom. This happens in our workplace.

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When we know how far we can go. When the

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fences are clear, we will play up to them. When

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we don't, we will continue to do the same slide, swings,

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sandbox that we do every day when we go into

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work because we just don't have that clarity.

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I thought that was so so powerful, and I could

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appreciate that. We're going to talk about the psychological safety

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aspect that comes with knowing that that fence is here.

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But let's go through the three parts of your book here,

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if you can distinguish that for us, boundaries, voice, and permission.

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Yeah, absolutely, so, Boundaries is where everything has to start

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without having that clarity. I mean, clarity is what drives growth,

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Clarity is what motivates teams. Clarity is what increases engagement.

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All that from knowing where the boundaries are, just like

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it did on the playground, and I give lots of

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examples for that. The second part is about voice and

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really making sure that other voices are heard. I have

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long experienced both in a junior role and a more

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senior role, and I've seen this time and time again

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that the person who is the decision maker or sitting

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in the corner office is often three positions away from

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the person who is closest to the customer, the patient,

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the client, whoever it is, and so they don't really

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see the problem, and so they also may not see

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the best solutions. So making sure more voices are heard

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is critical. Once you have those two in place, that's

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when you can go and start more the tiny experiment

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giving people permission, allowing them to take shots, and they

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will because the other two are in place.

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I appreciate this. I'm going to tell you you're going

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to probably appreciate that. I was talking about you on

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my run today. So I run with my friend Charles

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on Tuesdays in the morning, and he knew he knows

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my show was every Tuesday, and he saw me prepping

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when he came over to scoop me up and I

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told him about about your book, and he said, you know,

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this would have been handy before I went through this

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whole air conditioning issue. He said. I called a company

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and they said the part that I needed to be

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able to get this was nine hundred dollars nine twenty

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five in salt. And then the guy says, well, actually,

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if you take this thing off the truck that I

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have for me, it's a different model, it'll be six

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twenty five and yeah, or three twenty five, so saving

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him six hundred dollars. So he said, I went ahead

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and did that. He said, but then I thought to myself,

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what if I just went on eBay and I looked

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for the exact part, and he said, which I did,

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and he was sixty five bucks. And he was just

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kicking himself in the foot for spending three twenty five

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when he could have spent sixty five. And I said,

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that's where Sherry's work would have helped you. If you

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would have had the boundary of I only want to

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spend one hundred bucks or less to solve this problem,

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you might have had a different outcome. And so I

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want you to know I celebrated your first thing this

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morning and put your put your work right to work.

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You have no idea how much I love that story

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for a couple of reasons. First, at least, I'm a

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runner and I have my running friends, and we had

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the best conversations when we're out on our runs. It's

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it's how I came up with the name of my company.

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Even so, I love that that that conversation happened there.

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I also love the that that little anecdote about how

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boundaries because it does impact our.

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Lives in every single way.

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I love fashion, I love to shop, and so the

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boundary I have to put in place is that whenever

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I walk into a shop, before I look at an

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item I fall in love with, I tell myself how

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much I think it's going to cost, and then I

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turned over the price tag, and if it is above

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that I've already put in the boundary, it's easier for

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me to say no, I have to do that because

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I literally can just keep shopping. So I love that

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that example that you gave.

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You know, we do something, So I have a very

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similar approach to that. I do something very what what

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would I be with and to pay for it, and

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if it's more than that, I'm not getting it right right.

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Sometimes sometimes there's fudging, but you know, yes, it just

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depends on how much risk I want to take that day,

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which is where I want to go next. I really

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appreciated your risk capacity model, your four kinds of risk capacity,

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and I appreciated how you talk about how many organizations

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pride themselves and being data driven, but that mindset can

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invertently limit their understanding of risk capacity, and that you

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have a different approach to that. So if you could

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flesh out the idea of risk capacity for.

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Us, sure, absolutely. So.

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I often ask this question is if I were to

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ask you how likely you would to do something something

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you haven't done before, what is the phrase that comes

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to mind? And everyone and every audience, every conversation will say, well,

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my tolerance. Of course, it's about my risk tolerance. I said, yeah,

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that's what we all think. But here's the thing. It

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should not be about your risk tolerance. It should be

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about your capacity to take the risk. So how you

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feel emotionally about something maybe either holding you back or

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you may be taking risks that are too big because

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you have high or low risk tolerance.

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The question we should.

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Always be asking is what is my capacity to run

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this experiment, to try something new, to fail, learn from

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that and move forward. If it's low, if I don't

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have a lot of capacity, don't do it. If it's high,

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then move forward. Make it something that you can learn from.

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So the quick example I share is Amazon clearly has

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high risk capacity. They invest, they can have major failures

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and lose a lot of money. But my little local

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pizza place that's around the corner from my house, they

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have tight margins. They have a small built in audience.

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If they try something new and it fails, that has

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a bigger impact on them, and so their risk capacity

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is lower. And knowing your risk capacity is critical, not

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your tolerance, but your capacity to try something new for

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It's a network for you to learn, but to be

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able to successfully move forward.

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So I think that's incredibly helpful. And then of course

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nelsled in that is you talk about you argue for

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being more data influenced instead of data driven. I thought

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that was also very very insightful.

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Yeah, absolutely, well, I like you you mentioned before we

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got on how many books you've read and how many

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authors you've interviewed, and I picked up a book, and

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it was talking about get eighty percent of what you

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need to.

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Move forward, and that was years ago.

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Over the last fifteen years, I've run a research company,

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So I run a company that helps organizations gather the data.

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But I will always say that there's a certain point

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where you need to get what you have and move

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forward with it. And that is data influence, not data driven.

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Because by the time you cross every tea and dot

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every eye and gather every single data point, the world

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has changed. And we know that, we feel that every day.

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So identify the couple points, a couple of things that

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are going to give you more confident and that fall

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within your capacity to take the risk or to try

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something new. And that is being data influenced so that

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you could learn rather than waiting to have every single

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data point and probably missing an opportunity.

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So powerful, and I think many of our listeners viewers

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can really resonate with what you just said there. Okay,

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So then the other thing that I wanted to cover

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here that I thought was really interesting is you know

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what it makes sense to move the boundaries And I

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thought the Brooklyn Public Library example was stellar to illustrate

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that if you could share a bit about that case.

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Yeah, absolutely, so not too long ago, the Brooklyn Public Library,

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Amy Talver, she reached out to my company and.

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Said, we are we're curious.

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We think that there is a policy in place that

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is out of date. And almost every company organization has

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this in place. They have policies that were there, that

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were designed and they were made sense at the time,

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but nobody goes back and revisits them. Well, in their case,

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it was, you know, when we had public library you

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know cards, we had to make sure that you lived

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within a certain distance of the public library because we

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had physical books. But years ago we started moving to ebooks.

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And I'll even ask a roomful of people who here

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reads an ebook, and almost every hand will shoot up,

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and so so many people used ebooks, and that you

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don't need to physically return a library book to the library.

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But the policy around getting a library getting access to

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books had never changed for most public libraries around the country.

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And so what we were looking at is is this

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a boundary that can be moved, Why does it exist,

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what if it moves, and what will be the impact.

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And as they looked at what their mission was, why

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they existed, and what they hoped to achieve providing people

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with access and what was critical to that was changing

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the policies around getting library cards. There's a bigger program

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that this was bundled into or called Books on Band,

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but that whole entire effort to just make sure that

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any individual, regardless of where they lived, had access to

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certain books was what drove was the initiative that drove this.

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But the takeaway from it is how many of us

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are still operating within policies or within guidelines that have

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become outdated, and so those are boundaries that potentially can.

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Be moved right. Yeah, running the company from nineteen eighty

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three policies.

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Let's change.

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Yeahbub our first break, I'm your host, Doctor Release Cortes.

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We run the air with Sherry Jacob's innovation strategists and

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founder of Avenue m Group, who helps organizations unlock their

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creative potential by rethinking boundaries, risks, and leadership. We've been

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talking a bit about some of the important base of

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her work. After the break, we're going to continue with

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more examples and much more examples of how you can

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use the voice aspect of her work.

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We'll be right back, Doctor Elise Cortes is a management

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consultant specializing in meaning and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author,

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she helps companies visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and

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develop purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance,

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and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to

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invite a lease to speak to your organization, please visit

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her at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to

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get your employees working on purpose. This is working on

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Purpose with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today

362
00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:01.920
or to open a conversation with Elise, send an email

363
00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:07.079
to a lease a LISEE at eliscortes dot com. Now

364
00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:08.920
back to working on purpose.

365
00:19:13.880 --> 00:19:15.720
Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to working

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on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes, as I too,

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am dedicated to help them create a world where organizations

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thrive because their people thrive. They're led by inspirational leaders

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that help them find it and to contribute their greatness,

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and we do business that betters the world. I keep

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researching and writing my own books, so one of my

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latest came out. It's called The Great Revitalization. How Activating

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Meaning and purpose can radically enliven your business. And I

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wrote it to help leaders understand today's diverse and discerning workforce.

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What do they want to stay with you and give

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you their best And then I give you twenty two

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best practices to equip you to provide it for them

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through your leadership and your culture. You can find my

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books on Amazon or more personal site at Lascortes dot com.

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You are just joining today. My guest is Sherry Jacobs.

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She's the author of The Unexpected Power of Boundaries, Rethinking

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the Rule Risks and Real Drivers of Innovation. So I

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absolutely jammed on a lot of the voice section of

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your book because I thought there were so many great

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examples in there, and I wanted to showcase from the

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good Catch Model chapter the idea of the best new

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mistake Ward. I thought that was just brilliant.

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Oh thanks, Elise.

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Actually it's funny because that's one that pubably gets some

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of the most attention from this book or when I

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shared it from the stage.

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So years and.

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Years ago, I worked at a dot com and this

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is at the very start of when people were going

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onto the internet and the only thing people were doing

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they were checking sports scores. They were sending emails or

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going into chat rooms. They were not doing any financial transactions.

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Banking wasn't done online and certainly not payroll. But we

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were launching a company, and in those early years we

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were very innovative and we would take risks and we

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knew that our capacity for which ones we could take,

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and we became a very innovative company, to a point

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where we became the largest online payrole company in the world.

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As we've gained that success, so many companies do and

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they grow want you have this mindset of how do

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we keep that mindset here? How do we make sure

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that people continue to innovate and not get comfortable. And

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so we created something that is called the Sure Choice Awards.

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And so while we had awards for the best new

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innovation in the best customer Service, and other typical awards

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you would see at companies, we also offered an award

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for the best new Mistake, and that ward got four

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times a monetary.

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Value of any other award.

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And with that, the idea was if you tried something,

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it failed, but you learned from it and that helped

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a future improvement. It was the mistake that and that

418
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you submitted that's what could win the prize. And I

419
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remember my boss at the time of Troy Hennecoff and

420
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Michael Alter, saying, you know, a really good leader and

421
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a really good employee never bets the company, but occasionally

422
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bets their job. They take that risk, right, And so

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they wanted to create that culture and also reward people,

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not just say we have a culture of experimentation, but

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actually reward people for it. I would say that that

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whole idea gets replicated when I share it all the time.

427
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People are always looking at how can we create the

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best new Mistake award? What rules do we put in

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and that you have to determine for yourself. But it's

430
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a great concept to replicate.

431
00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:34.200
I think it's brilliant. And I also appreciate that you

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say in your book that this approach reframes mistakes as

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potential breakthroughs. I thought that was wonderful. And then you

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also there's a quote in there from an Ink magazine

435
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article about they were altered. The leader is quoted as saying,

436
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mistakes or the tuition you pay for success. Yeah, I

437
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think that's boy. If you could reframe to that, what

438
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a difference that would make.

439
00:22:56.319 --> 00:22:58.519
Well when I was younger, I felt that a lot

440
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of things I joking say that my mom had like

441
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fine cherriets, hid and talent.

442
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It was this campaign and.

443
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She wrote, yeah, And I tried every instrument and gymnastics

444
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and acting and I just constantly failed. And I remember

445
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when I was young, I talking to a grandparent and saying,

446
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just complaining, I'm like, I am not good at anything.

447
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I keep failing. And what they said to me was

448
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that failure is knowledge earned, and knowledge is power. And

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I just never forget that, because like, knowledge earned is tremendous.

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And when we're young, we do fail a lot, we're

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given that opportunity. When we get older, we put we

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put in things that like I don't want to fail,

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when the truth is that we just need to know

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what is our capacity for failure.

455
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Going back to that, so absolutely.

456
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So good, okay, and then building on that, I thought

457
00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:55.680
the concept that we talk about intelligent failure versus incompetence,

458
00:23:55.759 --> 00:23:57.559
let's let's tease those two out.

459
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Yeah, so, well, not all failures are going to be

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created equal, right, So, and that's important and your team

461
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needs to know it as well. So we definitely want

462
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to have a culture of experimentation, and there's a lot

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of great literature that's been written about this and studies

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about how important it is that people can speak up

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and that people can try things and talk about it.

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But we also want to make the distinction that when

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mistakes are made or they spark growth or one that

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signals that there's a problem here and we need to

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address it, that's very different. That's intelligent failure and that's

470
00:24:37.880 --> 00:24:41.000
Amy Edmondson's brilliant work on that, and I think that's

471
00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:44.319
it's essential as we look at how do we bring

472
00:24:44.359 --> 00:24:47.720
the concept of failure into companies that are so focused

473
00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:51.839
on excellence, are so focused on what we're going to achieve,

474
00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:58.160
they're through thoughtful and crafted and executed experiments and not

475
00:24:58.240 --> 00:25:02.200
just random acts that may happen. On the other hand,

476
00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:06.920
preventable failure happens when there is a clear standard or

477
00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:11.440
a best practice and somebody just didn't follow it. So

478
00:25:12.119 --> 00:25:16.000
it's not about just you know, experimenting and failing just

479
00:25:16.039 --> 00:25:18.640
for the sake of it, but it is making sure

480
00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:21.480
that we know why we're doing what we're doing, what

481
00:25:21.720 --> 00:25:24.480
is the purpose of it, and how to follow through

482
00:25:24.559 --> 00:25:28.200
on it. So you know, again, the preventable ones our

483
00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:34.240
repetition and careless errors and missteps, and you want to

484
00:25:34.279 --> 00:25:39.039
have training and structure versus intelligent failure, which is thoughtful

485
00:25:39.359 --> 00:25:44.279
experimentation with a learning intent. And also we don't want

486
00:25:44.279 --> 00:25:47.039
to forget let's celebrate it and make sure that what

487
00:25:47.079 --> 00:25:50.079
we're learning is something that also can be scalable.

488
00:25:51.000 --> 00:25:53.920
Awesome. It's just that was so crisp. And you know,

489
00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:55.480
I know both of us have spent time in many

490
00:25:55.559 --> 00:25:57.559
organizations that really you know, just to your say, the

491
00:25:57.599 --> 00:26:00.519
mandate is, you know, create, innovate. You've got through space,

492
00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:03.799
but the conditions are not there and the support is

493
00:26:03.839 --> 00:26:06.640
not there for them to do that, and they're not

494
00:26:06.680 --> 00:26:08.759
aware of it until they read your book.

495
00:26:09.799 --> 00:26:11.480
That's right, That's right.

496
00:26:12.440 --> 00:26:14.799
Okay, So I think it would be incredibly useful next

497
00:26:14.839 --> 00:26:17.680
to talk about the role of failure boundaries and why

498
00:26:17.720 --> 00:26:18.240
they matter.

499
00:26:19.799 --> 00:26:20.240
Yeah.

500
00:26:20.279 --> 00:26:22.960
So at the very beginning when I started writing this book,

501
00:26:23.000 --> 00:26:27.319
I really love that phrase around failure boundaries, and it's

502
00:26:27.319 --> 00:26:30.240
something that has stuck with me throughout the writing of

503
00:26:30.279 --> 00:26:34.640
the entire book. And that's what creates that sandbox, that

504
00:26:34.839 --> 00:26:40.960
area where experimentation and play can happen within your organization. Right,

505
00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:44.680
you're defining the edges of the creative space. You're framing

506
00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:47.920
what it is, and within that frame is where the

507
00:26:47.960 --> 00:26:51.359
creativity really can come out. I see this as a

508
00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:54.880
in addition to being a researcher and an author and

509
00:26:54.920 --> 00:26:58.200
a speaker, I'm a wildlife photographer and I see this

510
00:26:58.720 --> 00:27:02.079
in all aspects of my life. Is where when we

511
00:27:02.160 --> 00:27:05.119
know where those failure boundaries are, when we have a

512
00:27:05.160 --> 00:27:08.519
frame for that, then we can take bolder moves. That's

513
00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:11.960
when we can really try something different and not waste

514
00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:15.240
energy on something that is not going to help us

515
00:27:15.319 --> 00:27:20.160
move forward. So a clear failure boundary doesn't just permit risk,

516
00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:24.000
it invites it. It says, let's try it, let's learn.

517
00:27:24.319 --> 00:27:26.359
You know, we've got your back, We're here, we get it.

518
00:27:27.519 --> 00:27:29.480
You Know. One of the many things I appreciate about

519
00:27:29.480 --> 00:27:31.720
your book and the books that contain something like this

520
00:27:31.839 --> 00:27:34.160
is I loved your stories of being a wildlife photographer

521
00:27:34.200 --> 00:27:36.359
and you know all the three thousand shots that you

522
00:27:36.359 --> 00:27:38.799
would take. And the reason I think that's so important

523
00:27:39.480 --> 00:27:41.880
as an author is we know you. We then know

524
00:27:42.559 --> 00:27:44.759
some of your essence and we can relate to you

525
00:27:44.799 --> 00:27:46.400
and feel you. And I just I just thought it

526
00:27:46.440 --> 00:27:49.119
was really delightful. How you shared those stories?

527
00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:50.680
Oh thank you.

528
00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:53.839
Yeah, it is my voice, like when you hear me speak,

529
00:27:53.839 --> 00:27:56.119
and when you read the stories, you do get it,

530
00:27:56.160 --> 00:27:57.039
to get that essence.

531
00:27:57.200 --> 00:28:00.279
You know. She didn't she didn't have a what's where

532
00:28:00.279 --> 00:28:05.359
a ghostwriter? She wrote this, Okay, So having somebody who

533
00:28:05.400 --> 00:28:08.000
is actually just I was in the hospital for a

534
00:28:08.039 --> 00:28:11.759
week in December. So the good Catch program and just

535
00:28:11.880 --> 00:28:14.759
culture example you talk about with the Children's Hospital of

536
00:28:14.759 --> 00:28:18.920
Philadelphia was incredible. So if we could bring that to life,

537
00:28:19.759 --> 00:28:22.519
if we could get more organizations to do stuff stuff

538
00:28:22.519 --> 00:28:24.319
like this, I really think we could change the world.

539
00:28:25.359 --> 00:28:26.000
Absolutely.

540
00:28:26.119 --> 00:28:29.480
So this is a case study about chop which is

541
00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:33.480
at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia. But also Amy ed Vinson

542
00:28:33.519 --> 00:28:37.319
had done her whole body of work around psychological safety.

543
00:28:37.359 --> 00:28:40.680
Also it was around healthcare workers, and so there's a

544
00:28:40.759 --> 00:28:42.880
huge body of work out there. And then there are

545
00:28:42.920 --> 00:28:46.160
anecdotes where you can see it where there are two

546
00:28:46.279 --> 00:28:49.920
ways we can think about things. One, we don't have

547
00:28:49.960 --> 00:28:54.359
a culture where people can bring up observations or mistakes

548
00:28:54.799 --> 00:28:56.440
so that we can learn and move forward.

549
00:28:56.519 --> 00:28:57.519
There's too much fear.

550
00:28:57.920 --> 00:29:00.240
They don't have that freedom to say something, and they

551
00:29:00.279 --> 00:29:03.279
don't build it into a reward system or a culture

552
00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:06.680
where they say this is essential so that we continue

553
00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:09.720
to have the patient's best interest in mind right, or

554
00:29:09.839 --> 00:29:12.960
we have that culture where that is critical for us

555
00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:16.000
to learn and to make sure that ultimately, if a

556
00:29:16.039 --> 00:29:19.880
mistake happens, we want to celebrate the person that observes

557
00:29:19.880 --> 00:29:21.400
something and brought it forward.

558
00:29:21.799 --> 00:29:24.680
No blame happening, but so that we could change things.

559
00:29:24.799 --> 00:29:28.960
And that happens every day in healthcare because everyone is human.

560
00:29:29.359 --> 00:29:32.119
People are going to make mistakes, they're going to overlook something,

561
00:29:32.119 --> 00:29:34.359
they're going to be burnt out. There's all the different

562
00:29:34.440 --> 00:29:37.880
reasons why things will happen, and so how can we

563
00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:41.720
make sure that when something happens we can bring it forward.

564
00:29:41.759 --> 00:29:43.000
How do you have that mindset?

565
00:29:43.480 --> 00:29:46.240
And that happened in the Good Catch program, and that

566
00:29:46.359 --> 00:29:49.039
the Good Catch program was the name at Chop, but

567
00:29:49.079 --> 00:29:52.039
it's also a program now at many other hospitals. Where

568
00:29:52.240 --> 00:29:56.160
you see something and it could be just simply like

569
00:29:56.480 --> 00:29:59.160
a gurney or something that's going through the hospital that

570
00:29:59.880 --> 00:30:02.400
is is wobbly or can put the patient on it

571
00:30:02.440 --> 00:30:05.400
at risk, and you raise the attention to it and

572
00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:07.920
you're like, okay, good catch, we caught this.

573
00:30:08.079 --> 00:30:09.680
Now and so now we.

574
00:30:09.680 --> 00:30:12.359
Can make a change so that future patients don't get

575
00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:15.920
injured by that that kind of culture. We can bring

576
00:30:15.960 --> 00:30:19.079
that same sense to every single work setting. It happens

577
00:30:19.119 --> 00:30:22.920
in aviation, it happens in airlines and with pilots, and

578
00:30:23.039 --> 00:30:25.319
it really needs to happen in all cultures too.

579
00:30:26.480 --> 00:30:28.880
I agree, and I appreciate that. You know, what you

580
00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:31.039
also said in the book about that particular case is

581
00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:33.359
you say this mindset shift at the heart of the

582
00:30:33.400 --> 00:30:36.759
Good Catch program. It's a proactive initiative focused on identifying

583
00:30:36.799 --> 00:30:41.279
and addressing potential issues before they cause harm. It's rooted

584
00:30:41.319 --> 00:30:44.119
in what's known as a just culture, where individuals are

585
00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:47.359
not punished for making mistakes, but rather held accountable for

586
00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:48.799
how they respond to them.

587
00:30:49.000 --> 00:30:54.039
That is so powerful, Absolutely anecdotally. One of my closest friends,

588
00:30:54.039 --> 00:30:57.160
her husband is a pilot. He just retired, but he's

589
00:30:57.160 --> 00:30:59.920
a pilot for a major airline, and I would talk

590
00:31:00.079 --> 00:31:02.519
about this with him and I was curious, you know,

591
00:31:02.759 --> 00:31:03.640
what do we see?

592
00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:04.799
Was he seen as a pilot?

593
00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:07.039
And he says, we have that that is built in

594
00:31:07.119 --> 00:31:09.079
here because at the end of the day, when the

595
00:31:09.119 --> 00:31:11.799
pilot decides to take off, they have all those lives

596
00:31:12.079 --> 00:31:14.680
there on the plane, and so we need to be empowered.

597
00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:17.440
But not just the pilot, but even the co pilot

598
00:31:17.559 --> 00:31:18.880
or anyone else on the plane.

599
00:31:18.880 --> 00:31:21.759
This part of the crew is able to speak up

600
00:31:21.799 --> 00:31:22.960
and say something.

601
00:31:24.559 --> 00:31:27.640
Oh, I just can think of so much disaster that

602
00:31:27.680 --> 00:31:29.480
could be averted if we can make this safe. And

603
00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:31.640
we will talk about more about that after when we

604
00:31:31.680 --> 00:31:33.920
come back from the break. I'm your host, Doctor re

605
00:31:33.960 --> 00:31:36.480
Le's Cortez. We've been on the air with Sherry Jacobs.

606
00:31:36.519 --> 00:31:39.799
She's an innovation strategist and the founder of Avenue m Group,

607
00:31:40.079 --> 00:31:44.599
which helps organizations unlock their creative potential by rethinking boundaries, risks,

608
00:31:44.640 --> 00:31:47.000
and leadership. After the break, when we come back, we're

609
00:31:47.000 --> 00:31:49.640
going to talk about this the importance of bounded psychological

610
00:31:49.680 --> 00:31:53.000
safety and why it's important for performance and innovation. We'll

611
00:31:53.000 --> 00:31:53.559
be right back.

612
00:32:08.880 --> 00:32:12.400
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning

613
00:32:12.519 --> 00:32:16.319
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author. She helps companies

614
00:32:16.400 --> 00:32:20.200
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired

615
00:32:20.279 --> 00:32:24.240
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and

616
00:32:24.319 --> 00:32:27.559
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite

617
00:32:27.559 --> 00:32:30.319
a lease to speak to your organization, please visit her

618
00:32:30.359 --> 00:32:33.599
at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get

619
00:32:33.640 --> 00:32:42.440
your employees working on purpose. This is Working on Purpose

620
00:32:42.559 --> 00:32:45.799
with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or

621
00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:48.599
to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to

622
00:32:48.680 --> 00:32:54.720
Alise Alise at elisecortes dot com. Now back to working

623
00:32:54.759 --> 00:32:55.480
on Purpose.

624
00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:02.319
Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to Working

625
00:33:02.359 --> 00:33:04.880
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor e Relies Cortes. As

626
00:33:04.880 --> 00:33:07.640
you know by now, this program is dedicated to empowering

627
00:33:07.640 --> 00:33:09.960
and inspiring you along your journey to realize more of

628
00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:12.599
your potential. I mentioned my last book came out, The

629
00:33:12.640 --> 00:33:15.839
Great Revitalization, and that it contains those twenty two best

630
00:33:15.880 --> 00:33:18.920
practices to help you to elevate your culture of your

631
00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:21.799
organization for today's discerning workforce. What I did for you

632
00:33:21.880 --> 00:33:24.279
is I created a simple, three page free assessment you

633
00:33:24.319 --> 00:33:27.359
can take off my Gusto Dashnew dot com site to

634
00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:30.279
determine the extent to which you're meeting those standards. If

635
00:33:30.319 --> 00:33:32.640
you are just now joining us. My guest is Sherry Jacobs.

636
00:33:32.880 --> 00:33:36.079
She's the author of the Unexpected Power of Boundaries, Rethinking

637
00:33:36.079 --> 00:33:40.480
the rules, risks and real drivers of innovation. So as

638
00:33:40.480 --> 00:33:44.279
an organizational psychologist, I could not help but just rivet

639
00:33:44.279 --> 00:33:47.039
myself on how much you sprinkled the idea of bounded

640
00:33:47.039 --> 00:33:50.920
psychological safety throughout the book. But I want to anchor

641
00:33:50.960 --> 00:33:53.960
that too, And then just thinking about how so many organizations.

642
00:33:54.000 --> 00:33:58.319
Of course, people aren't encouraged to innovate because they are

643
00:33:58.359 --> 00:34:01.039
worried about their job. They're worried about, you know, getting fired.

644
00:34:01.039 --> 00:34:02.920
They're worried about you know what I'm so they stick

645
00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:05.680
their neck out. So if you could bring to life

646
00:34:05.720 --> 00:34:08.760
a bit more of bounded psychological safety and why does

647
00:34:08.800 --> 00:34:09.800
it matter for performance?

648
00:34:10.400 --> 00:34:11.239
Sure?

649
00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:16.119
And there are within every workforce there or company, there

650
00:34:16.119 --> 00:34:20.159
are different departments that some of them they work in compliance,

651
00:34:20.280 --> 00:34:22.639
they work in finance, but they have to work with

652
00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:25.960
a sales team, or they work with other departments that

653
00:34:26.079 --> 00:34:30.480
have different levels of risk capacity or things that they're

654
00:34:30.519 --> 00:34:34.000
going to do. In addition, like you said, not everybody

655
00:34:34.519 --> 00:34:36.480
is like, look listen, I just want to keep my job,

656
00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:40.679
like they're not necessarily looking to innovate. And I had

657
00:34:40.679 --> 00:34:43.159
this conversation with a friend of mine, Dan Japarkov, who

658
00:34:43.239 --> 00:34:46.519
used to be at Google. And Dan was telling me

659
00:34:46.559 --> 00:34:49.920
about you know, innovation at Google and just about listen,

660
00:34:50.559 --> 00:34:52.719
you are going to have whether it is because it

661
00:34:52.800 --> 00:34:56.400
becomes a seasoned or a product that's been out for

662
00:34:56.440 --> 00:34:59.519
a long time so nobody wants to change it, or

663
00:34:59.599 --> 00:35:02.800
it's the individuals who are there that just simply don't

664
00:35:02.840 --> 00:35:06.800
want to take risk. Having that bounded psychological safety saying

665
00:35:06.800 --> 00:35:11.079
this is the space where risk is okay. This is

666
00:35:11.079 --> 00:35:13.800
the space where there's a certain amount of failure that

667
00:35:13.840 --> 00:35:15.960
we that it's okay for us to do.

668
00:35:16.599 --> 00:35:19.400
It doesn't just help the people that are excited and

669
00:35:19.440 --> 00:35:22.320
want to innovate and try new things. It also helps

670
00:35:22.400 --> 00:35:25.320
those that are that are in a role that.

671
00:35:25.400 --> 00:35:28.480
Needs to be more conservative, that in a role where

672
00:35:28.519 --> 00:35:31.000
they have to protect the company. They work in compliance,

673
00:35:31.039 --> 00:35:35.159
they work in finance, they have tightly held regulated positions.

674
00:35:36.119 --> 00:35:40.760
This idea by bounded psychological safety is fantastic for them

675
00:35:40.800 --> 00:35:42.920
because now they can work with the teams that want

676
00:35:42.960 --> 00:35:46.519
to try new things and they all understand how far

677
00:35:46.599 --> 00:35:48.960
they can go. So it is actually a concept that

678
00:35:49.039 --> 00:35:50.599
really is supposed to help everyone.

679
00:35:51.719 --> 00:35:54.039
You explained that beautifully, Sherry. Thank you. That was just great.

680
00:35:54.920 --> 00:35:56.679
Now I want to talk next about that you said

681
00:35:56.760 --> 00:35:59.119
we did culture, and I want to situated in that.

682
00:35:59.239 --> 00:36:00.800
Of course, in the work we do, we do an

683
00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:04.079
awful lot of diagnostics with organizations around culture engagement, et cetera,

684
00:36:04.320 --> 00:36:06.400
and around how purpose is being lived in an organization,

685
00:36:07.000 --> 00:36:09.159
and so many, so many organizations are really cool about

686
00:36:09.159 --> 00:36:10.960
that idea. They love the idea of getting the information,

687
00:36:11.519 --> 00:36:13.800
but then they don't. They keep it to himself and

688
00:36:13.840 --> 00:36:16.360
they don't do much about it unless, of course, we

689
00:36:16.599 --> 00:36:20.119
push them into it. So if you could talk about

690
00:36:20.440 --> 00:36:23.840
the what is you said, we did culture and how

691
00:36:23.960 --> 00:36:24.880
why is it important?

692
00:36:25.480 --> 00:36:28.079
Absolutely so we mentioned at the beginning of the broadcast

693
00:36:28.119 --> 00:36:30.920
that I own a research firm and I have surveyed

694
00:36:31.119 --> 00:36:34.480
half a million people. And over the years I started

695
00:36:34.519 --> 00:36:37.079
hearing this phrase people said, which was, Oh, it's survey

696
00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:40.320
fatigue and people don't want to give feedback. And I

697
00:36:40.400 --> 00:36:44.000
dug deeper into it, and when I looked at organizations

698
00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:47.559
and companies that both of them were serving, both of

699
00:36:47.599 --> 00:36:50.360
them were collecting feedback through a variety of different means.

700
00:36:50.599 --> 00:36:52.239
But the ones that got really.

701
00:36:51.960 --> 00:36:56.320
Meaningful feedback and we're moving forward and seeing growth or

702
00:36:56.440 --> 00:37:00.239
more innovative, we're the ones where they It wasn't about

703
00:37:00.239 --> 00:37:03.199
survey fatigue. They were the ones who didn't have the

704
00:37:03.280 --> 00:37:06.280
survey in action, right, So they're the ones where when

705
00:37:06.320 --> 00:37:09.280
we ask you for your input, we share with you

706
00:37:09.360 --> 00:37:11.760
what we're going to do with it, and if we're

707
00:37:11.800 --> 00:37:14.280
not going to move forward on something, we're going to

708
00:37:14.360 --> 00:37:17.599
share why. Right, you said we did, and it's also

709
00:37:17.800 --> 00:37:20.039
and we did not do this, but this is why, right,

710
00:37:20.519 --> 00:37:25.159
versus the organizations that constantly ask for input and they

711
00:37:25.239 --> 00:37:27.719
whether they move on it or don't, they just stop

712
00:37:28.119 --> 00:37:30.679
and they never continue that feedback loop and they never

713
00:37:30.800 --> 00:37:33.960
provide input on. Okay, you said this, this is how

714
00:37:33.960 --> 00:37:36.760
we're taking it in So building a culture of you

715
00:37:36.880 --> 00:37:39.760
said we did can help you overcome some of that

716
00:37:39.800 --> 00:37:42.119
what you think of is first survey fatigue, but is

717
00:37:42.159 --> 00:37:43.320
really survey in action.

718
00:37:45.199 --> 00:37:48.159
Beautiful last week, share a head on Mary Barrett who

719
00:37:48.199 --> 00:37:50.360
has a book out called Squash the Sunday Scaries, and

720
00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:54.320
it's really written for HR teams and such, but much

721
00:37:54.320 --> 00:37:56.400
of it was exactly what you said right there. Do

722
00:37:56.960 --> 00:38:00.000
ask for the feedback, do something about it within nineteen days.

723
00:38:00.880 --> 00:38:03.400
Within nineteen days of collecting the feedback, come back to

724
00:38:03.440 --> 00:38:05.159
the people and say here's what we heard you say.

725
00:38:05.400 --> 00:38:07.639
Here's what we can do now, and here's what we

726
00:38:07.679 --> 00:38:11.719
can't do now for this reason. Very powerful, right, really

727
00:38:11.760 --> 00:38:14.440
really powerful. Now people are sitting up and willing to

728
00:38:14.480 --> 00:38:15.360
give their voice.

729
00:38:16.039 --> 00:38:17.280
I love that title of that book.

730
00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:19.559
I remember being in my twenties and with roommates and

731
00:38:19.599 --> 00:38:22.760
living in Chicago, and I remember that Sunday feeling with

732
00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:26.400
my roommates. I mean that is something that it so

733
00:38:26.679 --> 00:38:30.239
overwhelmingly is being felt by probably more of our junior

734
00:38:30.239 --> 00:38:33.599
workforce and those who are coming to work that Sunday feeling.

735
00:38:33.639 --> 00:38:36.440
And I haven't read the book, but that totally resonates.

736
00:38:36.639 --> 00:38:40.159
Yeah, she's just a little firegrecor and her personality shows

737
00:38:40.239 --> 00:38:42.679
up in their big time. So it's a great read.

738
00:38:42.760 --> 00:38:44.880
I certainly recommend it if you're in that camp. I

739
00:38:44.920 --> 00:38:48.760
recommend it. Another case study that you talk about in

740
00:38:48.760 --> 00:38:51.239
your book that I just thought was so compelling was

741
00:38:51.239 --> 00:38:54.840
the Lego case study, and I really appreciated their approach

742
00:38:54.960 --> 00:38:59.039
to you coming from behind. So if you could share

743
00:38:59.079 --> 00:39:01.320
a bit about with that case study is about and

744
00:39:01.320 --> 00:39:03.079
why it's important for innovation.

745
00:39:03.559 --> 00:39:05.960
Sure, I have to start with the quick story of

746
00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:09.199
how I discovered it, So I love it. Yeah, my

747
00:39:09.320 --> 00:39:11.800
sister lives in California, She works in finance for a

748
00:39:11.880 --> 00:39:15.079
very very large global company, and so her when she

749
00:39:15.199 --> 00:39:17.320
comes home from work, her favorite things to do is

750
00:39:17.760 --> 00:39:19.360
did to do Legos.

751
00:39:18.960 --> 00:39:22.519
And problem self. And I went over to visit her and.

752
00:39:22.480 --> 00:39:24.719
All of a sudden, all the family photos were gone,

753
00:39:24.960 --> 00:39:28.360
including my daughter, her only niece, and in its place

754
00:39:28.480 --> 00:39:31.920
was a millennium falcon made out of Legos. And when

755
00:39:31.920 --> 00:39:33.679
I asked her about this, she's like, yeah, yeah, they're

756
00:39:33.719 --> 00:39:35.519
in the other room, but let me show you all

757
00:39:35.639 --> 00:39:36.599
the Lego kids.

758
00:39:36.920 --> 00:39:38.599
So I started thinking about this.

759
00:39:38.840 --> 00:39:41.199
My sister is an adult fan of Lego, and I

760
00:39:41.280 --> 00:39:45.119
started diving into the other adult fans of Lego, and

761
00:39:45.199 --> 00:39:48.280
that's when I came upon the story about Legos and

762
00:39:48.320 --> 00:39:52.119
how they nearly after this long history and this deep, deep,

763
00:39:52.320 --> 00:39:56.880
you know, passionate following from people, nearly went bankrupt. They didn't,

764
00:39:56.920 --> 00:39:59.800
but nearly did, and how they came back, how they

765
00:39:59.840 --> 00:40:01.960
lo us their way they were trying to do be

766
00:40:02.079 --> 00:40:05.199
everything to everybody, and then how they came back and

767
00:40:05.239 --> 00:40:07.559
they had much more clarity around what they would and

768
00:40:07.599 --> 00:40:09.039
went and do, and then.

769
00:40:08.920 --> 00:40:12.480
How they built a community and that community.

770
00:40:11.880 --> 00:40:15.360
That they built were part of the people that were

771
00:40:15.400 --> 00:40:19.800
building that future for Lego and they really supported that

772
00:40:19.840 --> 00:40:23.440
group with team Ambassadors and they built that into their

773
00:40:23.519 --> 00:40:28.400
infrastructure to find out, what is it that our major audience,

774
00:40:28.400 --> 00:40:31.159
because they're adult fans of Logo is bigger than the children,

775
00:40:31.320 --> 00:40:34.880
not surprisingly, and they wanted to as a company, if

776
00:40:34.920 --> 00:40:37.280
we're going to grow, we need to engage them.

777
00:40:37.519 --> 00:40:39.920
How do we do that. Let's create a platform, and.

778
00:40:39.920 --> 00:40:43.360
Let's create a platform where we empower anyone who goes

779
00:40:43.400 --> 00:40:47.800
onto that platform to provide feedback or ideas. So that

780
00:40:47.960 --> 00:40:50.840
co creation that they built and then they came back

781
00:40:50.840 --> 00:40:53.559
from the brink of bankruptcy. It's been written about, but

782
00:40:53.639 --> 00:40:56.519
it just I think there's an idea there that many

783
00:40:56.679 --> 00:41:01.239
organizations that are struggling to move forward forward or they

784
00:41:01.280 --> 00:41:03.679
have they're split in so many areas. How do we

785
00:41:03.719 --> 00:41:06.599
get that clarity and focus. Part of it is going

786
00:41:06.679 --> 00:41:09.320
to come strategically internally, but part of it's going to

787
00:41:09.400 --> 00:41:12.079
come from your audience, from your users or your customers.

788
00:41:13.079 --> 00:41:15.239
I think it also really speaks to the power of

789
00:41:15.280 --> 00:41:19.119
collaborating with you know, those very customers that you want

790
00:41:19.159 --> 00:41:22.239
to serve and depend on, and that and you open

791
00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:26.039
there there's vulnerability in that, there's there's there's trust there's

792
00:41:26.039 --> 00:41:29.679
a request, you know, there's it's really beautiful. And so

793
00:41:29.840 --> 00:41:32.639
I thought that the example was really spoke to what

794
00:41:32.639 --> 00:41:35.119
could happen when you really generally care and want to

795
00:41:35.119 --> 00:41:38.400
serve your customers. You need their help to improve your product,

796
00:41:38.440 --> 00:41:41.360
and you want to enroll them in your process.

797
00:41:42.199 --> 00:41:45.079
Yeah, and they still have fences, so they still have

798
00:41:45.360 --> 00:41:49.679
the boundaries there. So there has to be feasibility, There

799
00:41:49.719 --> 00:41:52.480
has to be they go through, they have a series

800
00:41:52.519 --> 00:41:55.199
of different items that even if they co create and

801
00:41:55.239 --> 00:41:57.760
an idea comes forward and all the fans voted up

802
00:41:57.840 --> 00:42:00.519
and it seems like a good concept, they still have

803
00:42:00.599 --> 00:42:03.360
those fences in place to make sure it's something that's feasible,

804
00:42:03.440 --> 00:42:06.239
that's marketable, and that you know, if they invest their

805
00:42:06.239 --> 00:42:08.800
time and their money and it's something that the market wants.

806
00:42:09.119 --> 00:42:10.599
And so I think it's not just a.

807
00:42:10.559 --> 00:42:14.159
Great idea around collaboration and community, but it also shows

808
00:42:14.159 --> 00:42:15.639
how you bring those fences back in.

809
00:42:16.480 --> 00:42:21.159
It's just it's just so it's so thoughtful and creative

810
00:42:21.199 --> 00:42:26.320
and dynamic. I just really really want to celebrate that. Yeah, okay,

811
00:42:26.360 --> 00:42:28.239
so now let's go on to the permission section of

812
00:42:28.280 --> 00:42:30.679
your book. Here, I just thought that there was so

813
00:42:30.760 --> 00:42:32.440
much in this but of course you know there's you say,

814
00:42:32.480 --> 00:42:34.880
there's a reason so many innovators and creators talk about

815
00:42:35.480 --> 00:42:39.760
feeling failing, failing fast, and failing forward, failing early and

816
00:42:39.800 --> 00:42:41.880
often kind of thing. But you also talk about it

817
00:42:41.960 --> 00:42:44.039
in your own in your own example of being a runner,

818
00:42:44.440 --> 00:42:47.760
somebody who totally said I hate running, to running the

819
00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:50.960
Boston Marathon, you run into, you run into some some

820
00:42:51.119 --> 00:42:52.840
issues along the way, and of course part of what

821
00:42:52.840 --> 00:42:55.559
you're talking about in the whole book here is the

822
00:42:55.599 --> 00:42:59.920
importance of prolific attempts. So if you could just speak

823
00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:03.480
a little bit about this idea of permission forlific attempts failing.

824
00:43:04.719 --> 00:43:07.480
Yeah, absolutely, going back to what I said about when

825
00:43:07.480 --> 00:43:11.599
I was young and all the failures I had when

826
00:43:11.639 --> 00:43:13.960
I got older, when I was in my twenties, I

827
00:43:14.039 --> 00:43:17.320
had spent so many years, all my entire life up

828
00:43:17.360 --> 00:43:19.760
to that point, having this idea in my head of

829
00:43:19.800 --> 00:43:22.280
who I was and who I wasn't and in my mind,

830
00:43:22.320 --> 00:43:24.679
I was not athletic, I was not a runner, and

831
00:43:24.719 --> 00:43:27.000
that is something that I would fail. I failed at

832
00:43:27.280 --> 00:43:30.559
and what I learned because I had this new motivation

833
00:43:31.199 --> 00:43:36.239
that everybody who starts anything, any instrument or any unless

834
00:43:36.239 --> 00:43:39.440
you're just a natural talent. The vast majority of us,

835
00:43:39.440 --> 00:43:42.199
when we start something new, we're going to fail at it,

836
00:43:42.360 --> 00:43:45.639
and so giving yourself permission that that's part of the

837
00:43:45.719 --> 00:43:49.320
process and how you'll get better is critical to it.

838
00:43:49.480 --> 00:43:51.639
For me, it was running and once I got past

839
00:43:51.639 --> 00:43:54.360
that first mile, and then I put together more miles,

840
00:43:54.599 --> 00:43:57.320
and then I set a goal, but even not hitting

841
00:43:57.360 --> 00:43:59.960
the goal, but thinking about, well, what do I need

842
00:44:00.119 --> 00:44:02.639
to do to get to that goal? And that goal

843
00:44:02.679 --> 00:44:04.639
for me was not just to run a marathon, but

844
00:44:04.679 --> 00:44:08.039
to qualify and run Boston Marathon, which is for an

845
00:44:08.079 --> 00:44:10.599
amateur runner, it's about as good as you can get.

846
00:44:11.079 --> 00:44:15.280
And I had multiple failures on the attempts to get there,

847
00:44:15.800 --> 00:44:19.000
but ultimately I made it and I qualified to get

848
00:44:19.039 --> 00:44:21.840
in and then had another setback, which is I got

849
00:44:21.840 --> 00:44:24.920
an injury. And as I met with somebody and I

850
00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:27.599
talked about my injury, we figured out a way to

851
00:44:27.679 --> 00:44:29.719
still get me to the starting line even if I

852
00:44:29.719 --> 00:44:32.000
had to make some adjustments, and what that final race

853
00:44:32.119 --> 00:44:36.119
is going to be. That experience, combined with my wildlife

854
00:44:36.119 --> 00:44:39.719
photography experiences, I've had failures and successes out in the

855
00:44:39.760 --> 00:44:43.320
wild as a photographer really taught me more about how

856
00:44:43.360 --> 00:44:45.719
important it is to take more shots and to give

857
00:44:45.760 --> 00:44:50.280
yourself permission to do so, even if multiple times it

858
00:44:50.400 --> 00:44:51.320
ends up in failure.

859
00:44:51.639 --> 00:44:52.559
But what can we learn?

860
00:44:54.559 --> 00:44:57.079
Yeah, oh my gosh, so good. Okay, So I really

861
00:44:57.159 --> 00:44:59.519
wanted to as we had toward a close here, I

862
00:44:59.559 --> 00:45:01.840
wanted to say, celebrate one of the leaders that you

863
00:45:01.880 --> 00:45:04.920
talk about in your books. It's the chief technology officer

864
00:45:05.000 --> 00:45:10.519
of Battle Motors, right, is that right? Yeah, it's Kaylee

865
00:45:10.559 --> 00:45:14.519
or Keiley Shankle. So she's going through trying to navigate

866
00:45:14.599 --> 00:45:17.360
rapidly changing world of high performance, you know, in a

867
00:45:17.440 --> 00:45:22.000
custom engineered vocational trucking business. And I really this is

868
00:45:22.039 --> 00:45:24.880
perfect for us to share this in terms of leadership,

869
00:45:24.920 --> 00:45:28.199
which you talk about how a philosophy that shows up

870
00:45:28.239 --> 00:45:30.639
in everything Shankle does can be summed up in the

871
00:45:30.639 --> 00:45:34.239
words she learned years ago from a mentor quote, the

872
00:45:34.280 --> 00:45:37.599
best leaders take the heat and spread the warmth. I

873
00:45:37.639 --> 00:45:40.480
think that's incredible. So in an industry that faces multiple

874
00:45:40.480 --> 00:45:45.679
constraints that must continuously innovate, Shankle leads with curiosity, the

875
00:45:45.760 --> 00:45:48.280
drive to make things better, and plenty of heart.

876
00:45:50.039 --> 00:45:52.119
Yeah, you know, I was so fortunate to meet her.

877
00:45:52.199 --> 00:45:53.920
I met her at an event where I was a

878
00:45:53.960 --> 00:45:58.239
speaker and we connected and then afterwards as I learned

879
00:45:58.280 --> 00:45:59.920
as I talked to her, and I talked about the

880
00:46:00.159 --> 00:46:04.159
what she had built, especially as somebody who was not.

881
00:46:06.000 --> 00:46:07.760
A majority gender.

882
00:46:07.800 --> 00:46:11.280
So she was a female in this department and it

883
00:46:11.360 --> 00:46:15.159
was more populated by men, so not dominated. She also

884
00:46:15.159 --> 00:46:19.039
taught me that phrase, it's not male dominated, it's male populated. Yes,

885
00:46:19.480 --> 00:46:22.480
and so she as I talked to her, and she

886
00:46:23.000 --> 00:46:25.519
told me about how she was able to bring such

887
00:46:25.559 --> 00:46:30.559
innovation out in her department. It really came from that

888
00:46:30.679 --> 00:46:35.039
philosophy and making sure whether it was an intern from

889
00:46:35.239 --> 00:46:38.000
I think it was cal Polytech, or from wherever it

890
00:46:38.039 --> 00:46:40.519
might be, to any other person on our team, so

891
00:46:40.559 --> 00:46:44.559
that she could encourage them to do that right, feel hard,

892
00:46:44.559 --> 00:46:47.840
feel fast, feel often, just really bring that forward in

893
00:46:47.880 --> 00:46:50.079
the work that they do, and to support them in

894
00:46:50.079 --> 00:46:52.039
that way so that they could innovate.

895
00:46:52.880 --> 00:46:54.880
I love celebrating leaders like that because I think we

896
00:46:54.920 --> 00:46:56.840
need I know that we need many more of them.

897
00:46:56.880 --> 00:46:58.960
Of course, I'm out to help develop those as well.

898
00:47:00.039 --> 00:47:02.280
I couldn't let you go without celebrating that. I think

899
00:47:02.320 --> 00:47:03.960
you know that this program is listening to by people

900
00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:06.239
around the world, and they tune in for different reasons.

901
00:47:06.239 --> 00:47:09.079
They tune in because they want to continually become a

902
00:47:09.079 --> 00:47:11.599
better leader themselves. They want to learn more about human

903
00:47:11.599 --> 00:47:14.280
flourishing in the workplace and be part of that various things.

904
00:47:14.519 --> 00:47:15.679
What would you like to leave them with?

905
00:47:16.639 --> 00:47:20.079
Yeah, you know what, we think that more is better

906
00:47:20.480 --> 00:47:24.679
and we're often said unlimited boundaries or think outside the

907
00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:27.320
box or if you know, if there's more out there,

908
00:47:27.480 --> 00:47:30.519
more opportunities, that's what I need. And it is a

909
00:47:30.559 --> 00:47:34.400
different mindset to say, actually, frame what you are trying

910
00:47:34.400 --> 00:47:37.000
to do. When you draw that boundary, when you draw

911
00:47:37.079 --> 00:47:39.760
the edges around the box, you will get more done.

912
00:47:40.320 --> 00:47:43.199
And so next time somebody says to you, think outside

913
00:47:43.239 --> 00:47:46.079
the box, don't build the box.

914
00:47:47.159 --> 00:47:50.519
Frame the problem and you will find more creative solutions

915
00:47:50.559 --> 00:47:50.960
within it.

916
00:47:52.159 --> 00:47:54.559
Erry, I learned so much from reading your book, and

917
00:47:54.559 --> 00:47:56.320
then I've been delighted to have you on. Thank you

918
00:47:56.360 --> 00:47:58.239
so much for coming on, working on purpose and talking

919
00:47:58.239 --> 00:47:58.960
about your work.

920
00:47:59.480 --> 00:48:01.840
Oh thanks having me at least, it's truly my pleasure.

921
00:48:02.760 --> 00:48:04.440
Listeners and viewers, you're going to want to learn more

922
00:48:04.440 --> 00:48:07.880
about Sherry Jacobs and the work that she does. I

923
00:48:07.920 --> 00:48:10.639
recommend that you go to her website, it's Sherry Jacobs

924
00:48:10.679 --> 00:48:14.199
dot com. So it's s h E R R. Oh sorry, yeah,

925
00:48:14.239 --> 00:48:17.280
there's just one r s h E r I Jacobs

926
00:48:17.360 --> 00:48:20.599
dot com. If you missed the show last week, we

927
00:48:20.599 --> 00:48:23.079
were on with Mary Baird. We were talking about squash

928
00:48:23.119 --> 00:48:26.599
the Sunday Scaries, where she gives a flywheel framework to

929
00:48:26.760 --> 00:48:29.840
help HR leaders do just that, starting with deep listening

930
00:48:29.880 --> 00:48:32.519
of the employee experience. Next week, we're going to be

931
00:48:32.559 --> 00:48:35.800
on air with Baru Kharlevi talking about his book and

932
00:48:35.800 --> 00:48:39.280
how he helps men stop drifting and start living their why.

933
00:48:40.400 --> 00:48:42.639
His book is called The Guy in the Glass Six

934
00:48:42.719 --> 00:48:46.159
Questions to see the Man who you were meant to be.

935
00:48:45.920 --> 00:48:48.000
It'd be an amazing conversation. He's been on before. He's

936
00:48:48.000 --> 00:48:50.719
a deep thinker and with a big heart. So we'll

937
00:48:50.760 --> 00:48:53.840
see you next week. And let's continue learning, leaning into

938
00:48:53.880 --> 00:48:56.840
discover how to elevate your operating system as a leader

939
00:48:57.159 --> 00:49:01.119
and create destination workplaces where legendary business take place. Let's

940
00:49:01.159 --> 00:49:01.920
work on Purpose.

941
00:49:05.199 --> 00:49:07.880
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to

942
00:49:07.920 --> 00:49:11.559
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes,

943
00:49:11.679 --> 00:49:15.000
each week on W four cy Together We'll create a

944
00:49:15.039 --> 00:49:19.639
world where business operates conscientiously. Leadership inspires and passion performance

945
00:49:19.760 --> 00:49:22.480
and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning

946
00:49:22.519 --> 00:49:26.360
and purpose they crave. See you there. Let's work on purpose.