Unleashing the Creative Power of System Choreographers

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What's working on purpose anyway? Each
week we ponder the answer to this question.

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People ache for meaning and purpose at
work, to contribute their talents passionately

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and know their lives really matter.
They crave being part of an organization that

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inspires them and helps them grow into
realizing their highest potential. Business can be

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such a force for good in the
world, elevating humanity. In our program,

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we provide guidance and inspiration to help
usher in this world we all want

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Working on purpose. Now Here is
your host, Doctor Elise Cortez. Welcome

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back to the Working on Purpose Program. Thanks for tuning in again this week.

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I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortez, to any your live from Dallas,

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which is home based for me.
If you don't know me yet,

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I'm a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose, organizational logo therapist, inspirational

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speaker, social scientist, and author. My team that I help companies discover

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and articulate their purpose to thread through
their culture and operations. We work with

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forward thinking or forward reaching organizations to
develop inspirational leaders who careate cultures where people

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actually want to come to work and
do their best, and we provide programs

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like the Gravier Guster that enable individual
team members to discover, unleash their passion

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and purpose at work to cana Light's
fulfilment, engagement and productivity. You learn

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more about us and how you can
work together at at Least Courtest dot com,

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Orgusto, Dashnow dot Com. With
us today is Dan McClure. He's

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the founding partner of Innovation Ecosystem.
He is working to make system innovation a

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core creative capability that is enthusiastically embraced
and widely practiced. He has authored a

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number of papers on system innovation methodologies
and agile enterprises, and is also actively

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engaged with programs addressing cutting edge issues
such as scaling, localization, and dynamic

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collaboration building. We'll be talking today
about innovation and disruption at how leaders and

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companies can take a vastly different approach
to them than they're perhaps previously considered.

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He started today from Bloomfield Hills,
Michigan. Dan, welcome to working on

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Purpose. It's great to be here
at Least. Thanks very much. You're

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so welcome, glad our passive cross
and when I started to dig into your

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work, Danna, I really got
excited at first, we have to talk

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about the title that you've given yourself
that if you've discovered fits best systems choreographer,

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let's start there. Yeah, so
the core of the work that we

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do is really focused on how do
you change the systems that exist around us?

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And this doesn't mean like how do
I remake the world economic financial system.

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We are surrounded by systems of all
types. So the system that allows

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you to get a coffee in the
morning, the system that educates your children,

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the system that provides you an opportunity
to create value in the job that

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you're working in. These are all
systems built out of people, organizations,

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resources, technologies, and in many
ways, we haven't focused very much on

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those. From the perspective of innovation. We focus on individual pieces and parts,

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but we haven't really stepped back and
say, how do we intentionally shape

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these things? And so when we
started looking at, you know's, what's

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the job of doing that? We
realized there wasn't a good job title in

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the commercial business sectors of things.
So we started casting about for where do

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you have these jobs where people are
working with complex, messy, not entirely

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well defined challenges And it was the
arts. So we stole the title of

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choreographer and the idea of system choreographers
really somebody who shapes complex, messy things

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in ways that end up producing beautiful
value. How's that I like it well?

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And as I told you before we
got on air, I am a

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systems person. I like systems,
I think in systems, and so I

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really was drawn to that whole notion, which is part of the reason I

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wanted to have you on the show
case you were wondering right just in case,

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so part from my vantage point,
Dan, I'm so up to this

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notion of trying to help the world
create organizations where people want to come to

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work. As as you heard of
the introduction, and I had Marcus Buckingham

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on my show probably over a year
ago. We were talking about how so

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many companies are designed to be efficient
and effective for the benefit of the organization

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at the expense of the human soul. And so you know, I'm very

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interested in this notion of you know, how you're out to intentionally change systems

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because I really do believe that the
pandemic has helped to see how wrong the

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world of work is for so many
people. So what's your perspective on this

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notion of how many organizations are designed. But you know, I think in

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some ways the organization gets a bad
rap because the organization is only doing what

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it needs to do to create the
kind of val value that it's bringing to

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the marketplace. And if your organization
is about efficiency and replicating a process and

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making something work the same today as
it does tomorrow and the day after that,

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those jobs have to look a certain
way. You know, they have

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to be jobs that are designed around
a box or around a rigorous definition of

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this is what you're going to do
every day, day in and day out.

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If, however, you say,
the purpose of my organization is to

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go out and create unique value in
the marketplace, to bring together different pieces

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of what's out there, and you
know, either craft unique value for different

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people or different organizations, or respond
to changes in the market, then the

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organization itself can be different. It
doesn't have to be a machine like set

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of gears and cogs that fit together. The organization can actually be one where

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people are not only encouraged to be
creative, but need to be creative for

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the organization to do what it needs
to do. So I think the first

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thing to do is reimagine what you
want to get out of the organization,

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and then a lot of the other
good behaviorals to go along with it.

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I like that, I really like
that. And then stepping into that hole,

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you said that really what you're really
all about is intentional changing of systems.

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So let's first start with when do
we know when does an organization start

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to recognize that it needs to change
its systems? Are the what are the

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indications or the symptoms that it's time? Well, so you know, it

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can widely vary. You know,
one is you look up and you see

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a really big truck coming at you
quick, and if you happen to notice

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that you're about to be smashed by
something, that's a good sign that disruption

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is maybe in your future. And
so, you know, for a lot

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of organization, the trucks are coming
at though they're about to be smashed by

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you know, potentially a set of
small little competitors that are eating away at

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the bottom of their business, or
by some large competitor that's coming and transforming

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the business. But either way,
almost every organization is facing this ongoing truck

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and so you know, there's a
certain amount of you know it's time when

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you're existing business model when you're existing
way of creating value in the market doesn't

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have any more many more days left
for it. So that's one. But

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there's another, which is you look
out there and you say, look at

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all these pieces, this legos of
the world that I could assemble in some

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unique and different way, and you
like get excited by the opportunity. And

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I think, you know, you
can go that direction too, if just

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saying I can do so much,
if I just freed myself from what I'm

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already doing. M you know.
So it's so interesting to me, Dan.

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So one of my most detested phrases
that I hear people say to me

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is, well, that's just how
we do things here, arly, how's

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that working for you? So I'm
so interested and in this notion of you

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know, automated behavior. We all, you know, live up with a

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lot of automated behaviors. And just
a really quick example to get our listeners

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and viewers into the space with me. When I first moved into this home

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that I live in now some five
years ago, my daughter you would get

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out of the passenger's seat at the
car and she'd walk across the lawn and

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and go into the into the front
of the house, and invariably she would

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track blood into the house and I'd
get mad about it. I'd be like,

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oh, there's alood in my clean
house. And you know, Dan,

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what I somehow realized was, gosh, you know, my driveway is

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pretty long, and if I actually
pull my car up so she's not just

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snuggling with the tree right here,
but I pull her up just a little

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bit further in the driveway, you
guess what happens. That passenger door aligns

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with the sidewalk that goes up to
my house, and my daughter can walk

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on that and not get mo out
of my house. It was there the

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whole time, Dan, but I
couldn't see it because I automated behavior inhabited

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parking in that one same space.
So I'm very interested, and you know

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how it is that we as individuals
and how organizations can start to get present

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to there are other ways of doing
this. I just didn't see it before.

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You know. I think it's a
two part process. You know.

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One of the phrases we use in
system innovation is if it's hard, you're

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doing it wrong. The mere fact
that it's hard is indicative of there's something

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about the system that's pushing against you, that's working against you. And the

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nice thing as a system innovator is
that you've got the tools at hand to

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change things. You know, so
often if you're working within a highly structured

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organization that doesn't allow much change,
you don't have very many tools for making

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things better. You know, in
your example, you have the tools in

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place to pull the car forward.
It's funny. As a system innovator,

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I was thinking, oh, the
solution to that is to build a sidewalk

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from where her daughter gets out.
And so I came up with roughly the

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same solution, but from a broader
perspective of change. And I think this

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is one of the things that's so
freeing about once you realize that you can

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change the systems is you don't have
to be satisfied with oh it's hard,

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I'm just going to continue to do
it wrong. You can say oh it's

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hard, and I'm going to start
making changes to the underlying pieces that make

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that not work. So then if
we step back a few steps, I

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want to take us into work.
And I reached out to you and got

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so excited about some of the work
that you do, and one of the

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articles that you have on LinkedIn that
I think is just wonderful. It's called

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the Creative Power of Big Problems.
That's one of them that's listed. And

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what I thought was so great and
this is I'd like to unpack this and

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give our listeners and viewers access to
this because I think this would fundamentally change

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the way organizations go about solving problems
and innovating if they were to embrace even

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a portion of this. So what
you talk about here is, you know,

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instead of you know, the idea
of the conventional path is rush a

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solution, where you have you know, you've got an idea and you take

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it to address this, make it
into a solution, and then you have

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another a better option to look back
at the specific rik cause. But the

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fundamental shift is to understand the system
behind the problem. And so what I

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thought was so cool about what you've
done here, Dan is you said the

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first step is to see the problem
as a symptom of underlying system issues and

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then go explore the big picture of
the system behind the problem and then see

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the whole challenge, imagine a better
solution, etc. Etc. So the

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part that I thought was so exciting
was Wow, stepping into that space,

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and how do we get ourselves that
it is in the first place? Was

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so mind modeling. It was right
there in front of me, but I

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didn't see that until I read your
article. Well, and you know,

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I think there's a lot of natural
human emotions that lead us away from that.

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So we tend to want to simplify
things, and so you know,

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the rush to solution is often one
of we know what the answer is,

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and if we just simply like accepted
that knowledge, we could begin action and

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all those things feel really good,
right. We eliminate ambiguity, we begin

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to act. You know, it
feels like this is the kind of thing

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that really proactive people do. On
the other hand, it ignores the fact

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that oftentimes there's a great deal of
opportunity in taking that stepping back, embracing

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the complexity. And you know,
we talk about the seduction of simplicity.

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Simplus city is just so seductive because
it feels like you can do things.

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It feels like you can eliminate risk. But by embracing complexity, you can

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see first a bigger problem. And
that might sound awful, about what it

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really means is that you can embrace
a more exciting in dynamic challenge, something

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that potentially has greater impact. You
know. One of the experiences I had

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in the past was working with a
media company and they wanted to go and

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improve the websites for their television stations, and this was seemed like a good

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investment. As we asked them about, you know, what's the future of

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those television stations, what they said
was, well, they're all going to

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be bankrupt in five years osment it. Their desire to rush forward and improve

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the websites of the television stations basically
ignored the fact that there was this much

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bigger challenge out there that they could
have embraced, and had they embraced it,

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they could look at potentially more powerful
solutions. So instead of merely improving

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the website, they could look at, you know, all sorts of things

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that they might bring together in this
new, exciting world of media, and

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they would also have many more options
if things went sideways. You know,

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if all you're doing is improving the
website, then that's really the only thing

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that you can adjust and refine.
But if you've embraced the bigger problem,

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you can have lots of different directions. You can go and this idea of

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complexity being a positive, powerful thing
is really quite exciting once you start getting

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your arms around it. I love
that. So here's what I'd like to

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do if we can, Dan is
we're going to go grab our first break

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here in just a second. And
while we're on the break, if you

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could take that beautiful mind of yours
and con you're an example of an organization

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that has used this fundamental shift methodology
that you were talking about, that would

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be really lovely if you could chew
on that. So let us grab our

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first break. I'm your host,
Doctor Elise Cortez. We're on the air

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with Dan McClure, a system integration
architect, strategist, and system choreographer.

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We've been talking a bit about his
space and his interest and intentional changing of

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systems. After the break, we
want to hear that example. We're also

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going to get into disruption state with
us. We'll be right back. Doctor

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Elise Cortez is a management consultant specializing
in meaning and purpose and inspirational speaker and

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author. She helps companies visioneer for
greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired

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leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate
fulfillment, performance and commitment within the workforce.

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To learn more or to invite a
Lease to speak to your organization,

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please visit her at a lease Cortez
dot com. Let's talk about how to

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get your employees working on purpose.
This is Working on Purpose with doctor Elise

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Cortez. To reach our program today
or open a conversation with Elise, send

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an email to Elise ali Se at
Elise Cortez dot com. Now back to

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working on Purpose. Thanks for stating
with us, and welcome back to the

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program. I'd like to invite you
to check out my book that I put

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out at last November. It's called
Purpose Ignited, How Inspired Leaders Ignite Passion

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at la cause it's on Amazon.
I wrote that book to awaken readers to

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their passion and purpose and helped transform
them into inspiration to leaders who enlighten their

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workplace and elevate the contribution of business
to all its stakeholders. I also used

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the content as a basis for my
Bidole Inspired Leadership program and Grab Your Gust

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Too programs. If you're just joining
the program today. My guest is Dan

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McClure. He's the founding partner of
Innovation ecosystem is working to make system innovation

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a core creative capability that's enthusiastically embraced
and widely practiced. Is authored a number

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of pay present systems, innovation methodologies, and agile enterprises. It is also

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actively engaged with programs addressing cutting edge
issues such as scaling, localization, and

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dynamic collaboration building. I'm your host, doctor las Cortez. So while we

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are on Breakkeden, did that mind
of yours come up with an example you

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can share with us on how to
take us through that methodology? Yeah,

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and actually I'm going to offer you
a cobbled together example of several different organizations

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because of their challenges were all related. And I think it's it's really interesting

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when you see an entire industry getting
reinvented to see how organizations respond to that.

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So, in this particular case,
the industry is education. And you

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know, there's been a number of
different angles that folks have taken as far

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as you know, how do we
respond to you know, the kind of

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obvious disruptions that we see around the
world. In some ways, the story

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of education is just so exciting right
now. You know, the level of

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education in countries is much higher than
most people realize. You know, the

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vast majority of children are being educated
today. The level of college education is

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dramatically higher in the current generation than
it even was a generation or two ago.

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So there's a lot of growth in
education. But that does open the

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question of if you're an organization whose
job and whose business is education, what

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do you do? What do you
do in this new marketplace? And so

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one of the organizations that we've worked
with in the past had developed technology that

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was to be used in the classroom, and they had done all the right

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things from an innovation perspective. So
we know as innovators growing up over the

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last ten years, that you're supposed
to develop minimum viable products, you're supposed

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to fail fast, you're supposed to
engage the people who are going to use

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the product, and you know,
all of these best practices around user centered

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design. And they did all of
those things, and they took their brand

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new product and put it into the
classroom and none of the teachers used it

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was entirely not adopted. And what
they realized was the challenge was they had

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developed a great product, but the
system around the product, all the curriculum

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that needed to be integrated with the
teachers, the pedagogy that the teachers would

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apply to that, the just general
training of everybody to how to use this

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technology in a classroom environment. None
of those things had been fully explored,

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and as a res the organization needed
to make a deep pivot from being simply

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I'm a product organization delivering this piece
of technology, too, I'm an organization

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that is going to transform the way
the classroom works. And as they moved

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into this space, what they realized
was it wasn't just about the teacher.

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It was also about the school administration, and about the nature of the content,

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and about the integrating with the parents
themselves. And so they expanded the

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size of the problem that they were
looking at and met in the same time

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created many more opportunity for them to
create value. Instead of just being I'm

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delivering a iPad onto your desk,
they became an organization that really could influence

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a whole bunch of different pieces of
the school environment and how children learn.

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M that's yummy, Dan, that's
really yummy. That is really interesting,

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So you know that sort of speaks
to They tried, maybe, you know,

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the conventional path plus a better option, but then they really had to

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go into that fundamental shipt you were
talking about and really step into or step

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back and look at what got us
into this mess in the first place.

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What's what where did this problem get
generated? And what was the system that

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helped create that. That's really interesting, Dan Well, and it's it's not

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even just limited to what created the
problem. The flip side of this is

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where are all the other opportunities?
You know, once you start saying I

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can embrace this big space, I
can start thinking about how could I create

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new sources of content that we're exciting
and new and different than what I had

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before. Yeah, could I engage
parents in different ways? So it's not

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only your problem gets snarlier, but
your toolbox gets so much big. And

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that's what I find really exciting is
that, you know, when I sat

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down and think about some of these
challenges, it's like when I think about

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the bigger system, I have so
many more things that I can do.

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So recall before we came on the
show that I told you that one of

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my big interests and intents and this
program as well as the work that I

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do, is helping to elevate consciousness
in leaders in businesses, et cetera.

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I am a conscious capitalist. I
believe very much in the notion of business

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serving all of the stakeholders well.
And that takes being intentional and too elevate

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consciousness. And I feel like what
you're talking about your work is very much

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smacked down that lane. So as
you were talking down tell me if I

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this analogy that I'm about to share
with you rings true, or if you

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want to tweak it somehow. But
as you are sharing that last example,

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what I got was, you know, using this methodology that you're talking about,

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where you then you go back and
you step back and really look at

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you know, where did this problem
come from? What was this that generated

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it? And then of course what
are the opportunities that we have going forward.

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I almost felt like it's like kind
of doing like time travel. So

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it's like I'm standing here today in
twenty twenty one, but I have the

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ability somehow to step back to,
like to the nineteen sixties. And when

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I walk in that room and I
see, you know, this educational place

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that you were talking about, I
see it from these eyes, and then

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so I can evaluate, oh,
I see where that start, where those

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things came from, and where the
problems arose, and Wow, from this

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point I can see so much more, like there should be paintings on the

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walls over here, and there should
be this and that. So it sort

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of seems like that to me.
It's like there, you're using the ability

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to time travel almost so you have
the ability to see with twenty twenty one

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eyes what the problem or whatever the
situation was, say in nineteen sixty,

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and then you come back and you
iterate and start to apply solutions and create

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from those from these fresh eyes.
Is it something like that? Something?

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But I'm gonna flip your analogy around. So I love to time travel,

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but I try time travel forward.
So instead of spending lots of time imagining

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what the nineteen sixties look like,
I try to understand the system as it

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exists today, and then I say, five years from now, what would

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a system look like that was so
much better than this? What would the

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future system look like? And this
is something This is sort of the other

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half of the challenge that most people
don't fully embrace. They get sometimes a

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really good understanding of what the underlying
problem is, and then they start playing

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whack a mole. So they pick
a particular problem and whack at that,

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and then they pick another problem in
whack at that, But there's no intent

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around how all these different actions that
they're doing are going to fit together to

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create a better future world. A
system innovator steps back and says, I

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now understand how the system works.
I'm now going to time travel into the

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future and I'm going to imagine a
system where all the pieces come together.

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You know, we're working right now
with some folks that are trying to reimagine

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power systems in response to climate change, and this is a case where there's

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so many different stakeholders and you can't
imagine half the solution. You can't imagine

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the solution where power gets generated and
power gets used unless you've figured out how

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the power is going to move or
how the bank financing is going to work.

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So a future system is one where
all the pieces work together to produce

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the type of outcomes and value that
you want. And that ability to time

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travel into the future and paint those
systems to paint a complete picture of what

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would work. That's really what a
lot of what the job of the choreographer

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is is to be able to see
that future system. Mhm. Okay,

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So now that gets me into the
space when what I whatever, I want

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to talk about disruption. So you
know it's okay, we are we ready?

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Can we get there? So talk
to me about productive disruption and creative

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disruption. MM. Well, so, first off, disruption is good,

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and it is good because it implies
that you're breaking free of the status quo.

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So productive disruption is breaking free of
the status quo in a way that

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produces better value. So you know, one of the dangers I think sometimes

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if you find yourself confronted with a
really bad situation and a bad system,

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is that the first inclination is to
just go and beat on it with sticks

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and you know, tear it down. And the problem is systems don't naturally

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reassemble themselves in a better way.
So a much more powerful form of disruption,

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a much more productive form of disruption, is where you imagine that future

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system and then you start saying,
Okay, I know where I want to

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go. What pieces of the house
do I need to start pulling down now

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to get to that future version that
I want? Interesting? Very interesting when

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you were talking about the education example, I thought that was really interesting because

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as somebody who you know, I
would say that I really do traffick in

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the educational sense written side organizations.
Right, That's a large service that I'm

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providing. I've also taught in universities
as well. I've never taught online,

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but I feel like there is there
has been such an opportunity to really look

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and examine at that particular industry for
disruption. Can you weigh in on that?

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Oh? So, what I find
interesting is there's a lot of folks

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that when you ask them about disrupting
an industry, they imagine making the status

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quo players uncomfortable and sort that's their
definition of disruption is they've put a pun

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under the mattress of the status quote
players. Right, for me, in

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this age, this moment of time, one of our great luxuries and pieces

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of excitement is that there is so
much that can be done that is just

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radically different. So the thing that
I've been playing with lately, and you

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know, I've been chatting with people
on and office, is just one of

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the things that's going to happen is
we're going to have self driving cars.

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Right, that's going to happen.
Once you have self driving cars, you

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actually don't need to have car ownership
anymore because you can just uber everything.

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What could you do in a self
driving car? So you could have parties

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or something, but you could also
have like little self driving universities. Absolutely,

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I've totally thought about this, Dan
totally on this. Yes, So

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why is Stanford or the University of
Michigan or Rice in the business of selling

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education? Why isn't Ford or Toyota. And if you were going to suddenly

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say Toyota is now a key deliverer
of educational content, who could they partner

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with? That would be you know, really exciting and different. So you

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know, could you imagine, for
example, content being generated by every business

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that wants to hire somebody for their
particular business. And so if you now

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want to go work for you know, Bob's auto tra submission, you can

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get your auto transmission course from your
forward car as you're driving along. I

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mean just you begin to see completely
different sets of collaborations and partnerships and opportunities

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to do things. And I think
that's the disruption that gets me really excited.

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You know, I'm not worried about
making the status quo uncomfortable because in

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all likelihood they're going to be obsolete. It's what's the big new thing you're

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going to invent instead. Sounds good
to me. Dan on that no list,

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Let's around our last break. We've
bet at least Cortet your host.

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We've been on the air with Dan
mcclura's system integration architecture strategists and system choreographer.

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We've been talking about about both system
changing of systems as well as one

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of his favorite favorite topics, disruption. After breaker and talk more about innovation

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and how we can teach organizations and
their team members to be more embracing of

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disruption, change and innovation. Stay
with us, We'll be right back.

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Doctor Release Cortez is a management consultant
specializing in meaning and purpose and inspirational speaker

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and author. She helps companies visioneer
for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose

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inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that
elevate fulfillment, performance, and commitment within

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the workforce. To learn more or
to invite a lease to speak to your

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00:31:22.599 --> 00:31:27.240
organization, please visit her at Eleise
Cortez dot com. Let's talk about how

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00:31:27.279 --> 00:31:38.599
to get your employees working on purpose. This is working on purpose with doctor

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00:31:38.680 --> 00:31:44.240
Relise Cortez. To reach our program
today or open a conversation with Elise.

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00:31:44.640 --> 00:31:51.960
Send an email to Elise Alis at
Elise Cortez dot com. Now back to

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00:31:52.079 --> 00:31:56.559
working on Purpose. Thanks forting with
us, and welcome back to working on

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Purpose. One other bit of news
that I want to share with you is

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that the idology that I spent the
last two years curating. It's a collection

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of twenty five stories of women from
around the world that I found and enrolled.

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It's called Passionately Striving and Why in
an anthology of women that person a

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mildly to live their purpose. It's
on Amazon now and I'm so proud of

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00:32:15.079 --> 00:32:16.920
it I could bust because essentially,
all these women are sharing their very,

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very intimate stories of what they went
through to be able to discover and then

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serve from their purpose. And so
it's meant to be something that is educational

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as well as inspirational. If you're
just joining us today, my guest is

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Dan McClure. He's the founding partner
of Innovation Ecosystem, and he's working to

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make system innovation a core creative creative
capability that is enthusiastically embraced and widely practiced.

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He has authored a number of papers
on systems innovation methodologies and agile enterprises,

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and is also actively engaged with programs
addressing cutting edge issues such as scaling,

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localization, and dynamic collaboration building.
I'm your host doctor Lee's Quartez.

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So for our last segment here,
dan as I said, I really I

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want to talk more of it.
If there's anything else you want to share

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about disruption, and then if that
bleeds over into innovation, so that we

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can start to situate a space that
leaders and organizations can create a place where

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more of their team members can embrace
what it is that you're out to evangelize

409
00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:15.559
in the world. Yeah. So, I think a big part of system

410
00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:22.960
innovation begins by realizing that you want
to embrace disruption. Then you want to

411
00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:29.000
step us away from the seduction of
simplicity that you want to say, complexity

412
00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:36.680
is where I see my opportunity,
and that step is actually a big step

413
00:33:36.759 --> 00:33:42.200
for organizational leaders. It's a big
step for the folks that work inside an

414
00:33:42.359 --> 00:33:49.279
organization. So in many ways,
the making an organization a place where people

415
00:33:49.359 --> 00:33:53.279
can embrace this kind of work begins
by the organization as a whole, particularly

416
00:33:53.359 --> 00:34:00.279
their leadership, embracing not only the
necessity of disruption but the opportunity of disruption

417
00:34:00.759 --> 00:34:08.159
and clearly communicating that across their organization. And you know, there's an interesting

418
00:34:08.199 --> 00:34:16.039
book that recently came out that talked
about how one negative thing is more powerful

419
00:34:16.079 --> 00:34:22.760
than five good things. This is
particularly true if you're asking somebody to embrace

420
00:34:22.840 --> 00:34:29.519
something as uncomfortable as diving into a
burning building, which is in many ways

421
00:34:29.519 --> 00:34:35.960
what doing disruption can feel like.
And you've got to be very consistent in

422
00:34:36.079 --> 00:34:42.760
conveying this message. You know,
it's we're on board with complex, big

423
00:34:42.840 --> 00:34:47.559
challenges and we're going to drive forward
into this new space. And we think

424
00:34:47.599 --> 00:34:52.480
that there's great opportunity here and that's
just got to be reinforced over and over

425
00:34:52.519 --> 00:34:55.679
and over again. But that gets
you started, and then you've got the

426
00:34:55.719 --> 00:35:00.519
groundwork on which to do the other
work. So would you say, Dan

427
00:35:00.719 --> 00:35:06.039
that you know, part of this
is starts with just the story that we

428
00:35:06.119 --> 00:35:09.760
as individuals and we as companies tell
ourselves about ourselves. You know, if

429
00:35:09.800 --> 00:35:15.960
we say we're creative, we're creative
profit solvers, we we we look for

430
00:35:15.039 --> 00:35:20.079
new ways to do things, or
we are we're thinkers. You know,

431
00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:22.599
we really are thorough. We're systematic
kind of thing. I mean it seems

432
00:35:22.599 --> 00:35:27.599
like it starts with just the way
that we talk about ourselves and so how

433
00:35:27.679 --> 00:35:31.079
do leaders socialize who's a team and
who are we together? Is that right

434
00:35:31.239 --> 00:35:37.039
or so? I think so.
But I think there's another piece that comes

435
00:35:37.079 --> 00:35:43.440
along with that. So I think
the message of we believe we are the

436
00:35:43.559 --> 00:35:49.320
kind of people who can do changes
to systems. You know that we can

437
00:35:49.360 --> 00:35:52.880
make many pieces come together. That's
an important belief you have to have,

438
00:35:52.960 --> 00:35:55.880
and you have to be able to
say that to yourself, both as an

439
00:35:55.880 --> 00:36:01.000
individual as an organization. But I
also think you actually need to build the

440
00:36:01.159 --> 00:36:08.360
organization that has the structure, the
roles, the processes that support that belief.

441
00:36:09.320 --> 00:36:14.960
You know, if you basically tell
somebody you are now going to go

442
00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:20.880
out and be system disruptors, and
then you put all your processes in place.

443
00:36:21.320 --> 00:36:24.679
For somebody who's in a replicable job, it doesn't matter how much they

444
00:36:24.719 --> 00:36:31.519
tell themselves, I want to be
this the actual organizational structure of fight back.

445
00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:37.679
So it's really I think a two
part thing. Get yourself with the

446
00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:42.480
right attitude and the right vision,
but also then build the structures within the

447
00:36:42.599 --> 00:36:46.119
organization that support that. Okay,
so since we're really in the part where

448
00:36:46.159 --> 00:36:49.800
we're kind of applying what we've been
talking about here. So what would an

449
00:36:49.840 --> 00:36:52.440
organization need to do, Like when
you say you put those that structure in

450
00:36:52.440 --> 00:36:57.039
place, so like can you sketch
that out force? What would they need

451
00:36:57.079 --> 00:37:02.559
to address? Well, I think
part of it is realizing that it's something

452
00:37:02.559 --> 00:37:07.280
that the entire organization does. You
know, much of the innovation work that

453
00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:12.679
was done over the last ten years. Sort of imagine that you could put

454
00:37:12.760 --> 00:37:16.320
innovation off in a corner. So
you could create an innovation lab, or

455
00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:21.639
you could do a spinoff, or
you could make it a one week event

456
00:37:22.079 --> 00:37:28.920
where you had a hackathon. And
that idea of we're going to make innovation

457
00:37:29.079 --> 00:37:32.920
something that a few people do,
ye doesn't fit with the idea of system

458
00:37:32.960 --> 00:37:37.519
innovation. The power of system innovation
is that you're taking all the parts of

459
00:37:37.519 --> 00:37:45.199
the organization and you're bringing them together
to do new things. So that's the

460
00:37:45.280 --> 00:37:51.440
first big thing is realizing this is
something that's going to engage business and technology

461
00:37:51.800 --> 00:37:59.079
and outside partners. Okay. The
other piece then is that you've got to

462
00:37:59.719 --> 00:38:04.039
men and empower people in the right
way. You know, and we mentioned

463
00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:09.760
this before that if you're measuring people
on how rigidly they perform on particular predefined

464
00:38:09.840 --> 00:38:15.440
tasks, you're not going to be
in a good position to evolve and do

465
00:38:15.519 --> 00:38:19.719
the sort of adaptive learning that's necessary
if you're going to change a big system.

466
00:38:20.119 --> 00:38:25.320
So you've got to put in organizational
rewards that basically say, we see

467
00:38:25.360 --> 00:38:30.159
this system that we're going to and
we're going to reward you for moving us

468
00:38:30.280 --> 00:38:37.760
towards this new complex idea, rather
than we've got specific goals that we want

469
00:38:37.800 --> 00:38:40.559
you to achieve next month or at
the end of the year, et cetera,

470
00:38:40.599 --> 00:38:44.639
et cetera, and we're not going
to pay attention to what's been happening

471
00:38:44.639 --> 00:38:47.920
around the world. You know,
we simply want you to accomplish your task.

472
00:38:50.719 --> 00:38:52.400
So then, of course that makes
me want to ask you if you've

473
00:38:52.400 --> 00:38:57.119
got an example of an organization that
you've worked with, that you know of,

474
00:38:57.599 --> 00:39:00.840
that has done this kind of overhaul
of their overall corporate entity or their

475
00:39:00.840 --> 00:39:07.679
company entity to be able to enable
this. Yeah. So I think there's

476
00:39:07.760 --> 00:39:14.960
a lot of organizations they're pushing to
do this right now. This work began

477
00:39:15.079 --> 00:39:21.119
being labeled as digital transformation, and
you know, oftentimes this sort of more

478
00:39:21.559 --> 00:39:27.400
agile, adaptive approach was applied strictly
to the technology groups, and then it

479
00:39:27.559 --> 00:39:31.280
was applied to we're going to integrate
technology in with you know, more of

480
00:39:31.320 --> 00:39:38.920
the business practices, et cetera.
But there's really a organizational transformation movement right

481
00:39:38.920 --> 00:39:47.719
now that is focused on broader adaptation
of entire enterprises, and you know,

482
00:39:47.840 --> 00:39:54.599
we're seeing it in really all types
of businesses. So whether that's insurance companies,

483
00:39:55.000 --> 00:40:02.760
humanitarian aid organizations, even large organizations
like the UN are having serious discussions

484
00:40:02.800 --> 00:40:12.000
about how do we respond at a
system level across this entire complex organization because

485
00:40:12.239 --> 00:40:19.159
the problems that we're facing are fundamentally
these big complex system problems. Interesting,

486
00:40:19.679 --> 00:40:23.000
very very interesting. Yeah, organizational
transformation is really really fascinating for me.

487
00:40:23.039 --> 00:40:28.320
And you know, I'll share an
example from my vantage point in the work

488
00:40:28.400 --> 00:40:34.679
that I've been doing as I'm working
with a consulting client, small boutique firm,

489
00:40:34.719 --> 00:40:38.119
and they really were attracted to work
with me because they just recognized that

490
00:40:38.159 --> 00:40:42.519
the ship was sinking and you know
that they they really you know, they

491
00:40:42.559 --> 00:40:45.559
need to be able to make some
serious fundamental changes to how it is that

492
00:40:45.599 --> 00:40:50.920
they do work together in order to
you know, really remain a strong provider

493
00:40:50.960 --> 00:40:55.719
of services in their industry, and
so you know, they are keenly hitting

494
00:40:55.920 --> 00:41:00.000
sitting on the hanging on the edge
of their seats. You know, Okay,

495
00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:01.519
how do we do this and how
do we transform ourselves? And you

496
00:41:01.519 --> 00:41:06.719
know, so like that pain that
they've experienced has allowed them to step into

497
00:41:06.760 --> 00:41:08.679
the burning building that you're talking about, right, I'm willing to go in.

498
00:41:08.840 --> 00:41:12.679
Right, It's that it's that hard
out here. I'm willing to run

499
00:41:12.719 --> 00:41:15.880
into the burning building kind of thing. So it's interesting when you start thinking

500
00:41:15.920 --> 00:41:20.360
about, you know, the things
that push for that. So it seems

501
00:41:20.400 --> 00:41:23.199
to me that maybe what you're trying
to do in your work is to make

502
00:41:23.239 --> 00:41:27.480
it so that we're not forced into
that so much, is that we opt

503
00:41:27.559 --> 00:41:31.000
into it. It becomes more of
the normal. Well, I've always been

504
00:41:31.039 --> 00:41:36.800
a big fan of pull versus push. Absolutely, you know, if you're

505
00:41:36.920 --> 00:41:40.840
if you're basically telling somebody, you
know, eat those Brussels sprouts, which

506
00:41:40.880 --> 00:41:45.000
by the way, I do not
understand Brussels sprouts at all, But you

507
00:41:45.079 --> 00:41:49.880
haven't had them done right, This
is what everybody tells me. But the

508
00:41:49.880 --> 00:41:53.000
truth of the matter is they're they're
just awful, no matter why. Anyways,

509
00:41:53.760 --> 00:41:59.679
if somebody's telling you to eat the
Brussels sprouts. You know that's not

510
00:42:00.360 --> 00:42:06.400
You're going to be pushing back against
all their inclinations. If you find a

511
00:42:06.960 --> 00:42:10.360
here is something that you can go
towards, here is a reason that you

512
00:42:10.400 --> 00:42:16.960
want to do these changes in adaptation, then you've got people solving a lot

513
00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:22.119
of the problems, helping remove their
own barriers because they see the thing that

514
00:42:22.159 --> 00:42:28.000
they want to do. And I
think this matter is as true for organizations

515
00:42:28.039 --> 00:42:32.119
as it is for individuals. When
you find an organization that you can say,

516
00:42:32.159 --> 00:42:37.119
if you master this capability of system
innovation, you're going to be able

517
00:42:37.159 --> 00:42:43.039
to do new things in your marketplace
or for your the people that you serve

518
00:42:43.320 --> 00:42:47.079
that you've never been able to imagine
before. That gets people excited. I

519
00:42:47.119 --> 00:42:52.079
think that's one of the things that's
really fun about doing this kind of work

520
00:42:52.760 --> 00:42:58.719
is watching people when they finally it
finally clicks for them that, oh,

521
00:42:58.800 --> 00:43:06.800
this complexity that actually makes me more
powerful and more creatively empowered in the market.

522
00:43:07.119 --> 00:43:13.079
That then gets people excited about doing
these things and it stops being a

523
00:43:13.199 --> 00:43:17.840
change management thing and becomes how do
we run up this mountain and you know,

524
00:43:17.920 --> 00:43:22.039
take on these challenges. So what
I like about that Dan from you

525
00:43:22.039 --> 00:43:27.480
know, the human element of that
is that to me, that that just

526
00:43:27.719 --> 00:43:31.280
all about just screams empowerment. It
screams expansion, and it screams you know,

527
00:43:31.400 --> 00:43:35.920
a team connected and united and and
you know, we come out of

528
00:43:35.920 --> 00:43:38.519
this thing and as we continue the
journey, we're all elevated, we're bigger

529
00:43:38.519 --> 00:43:45.960
from that experience. Yeah, I
mean it's not you can't do system innovation

530
00:43:46.079 --> 00:43:51.840
with top down control. You know, you can't do system innovation with cogs

531
00:43:51.960 --> 00:43:57.800
in the machine. You need every
actor to be empowered, to be part

532
00:43:57.960 --> 00:44:05.159
of a dynamic system that's respond to
opportunities. And so the very nature of

533
00:44:05.239 --> 00:44:08.199
the type of thing that you're trying
to do with this innovation being cross enterprise,

534
00:44:08.400 --> 00:44:14.400
being very flexible and letting go of
the status quo. This is something

535
00:44:14.440 --> 00:44:20.360
that empowers people requires people to be
empowered, which is of course what I

536
00:44:20.360 --> 00:44:24.800
stand for. I mean activating the
human potential to human element inside organizations so

537
00:44:24.840 --> 00:44:30.159
that they not only rise to their
greatest level, but the organization wins too.

538
00:44:30.159 --> 00:44:36.679
Everybody wins. Well, you know
what I find so frustrating about sort

539
00:44:36.719 --> 00:44:43.320
of the traditional reductionist, top down
controlled business model is that it doesn't deliver

540
00:44:43.480 --> 00:44:46.119
all that great value in the world. You know, if it was,

541
00:44:46.599 --> 00:44:52.079
we were suffering through these miserable jobs. Because this is truly the best way

542
00:44:52.119 --> 00:44:57.280
to create value for the people of
the world. You know, maybe I

543
00:44:57.360 --> 00:45:02.000
could, I could be talked into
that, but the truth is that's really

544
00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:07.239
good if you're just replicating bars of
soap. But you know, in the

545
00:45:07.280 --> 00:45:13.079
reality is the opportunities and the needs, the problems in the world today need

546
00:45:13.159 --> 00:45:15.920
a different kind of solution. So
in so many ways this is a win

547
00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:21.280
win. You know, we can
deal with bigger, harder, more complex,

548
00:45:21.320 --> 00:45:24.719
pressing problems, and we can create
a better workplace that's more exciting and

549
00:45:24.760 --> 00:45:30.320
more energized. M Yeah, and
so you know you heard, you heard

550
00:45:30.320 --> 00:45:32.800
my introduction. That's what I'm out
for is I want to help create organizations

551
00:45:32.920 --> 00:45:37.119
where people actually want to come to
work and do their best and they become

552
00:45:37.400 --> 00:45:39.679
a bigger, better version of themselves. And so doing everybody wins from that.

553
00:45:39.760 --> 00:45:44.639
And so what I love about what
Europe to Dan is I do think

554
00:45:44.679 --> 00:45:46.760
that you know, you're you're creating, You're helping to create a space where

555
00:45:46.760 --> 00:45:52.079
people can play at a higher level, they can iterate themselves in that process

556
00:45:52.079 --> 00:45:57.119
of serving to be able to innovate
into disrupt and in so doing it's enlivening

557
00:45:57.159 --> 00:46:00.199
for them and they grow into a
bigger version of themselves. You know.

558
00:46:00.280 --> 00:46:06.920
I think one of the things that's
interesting is where we began this work,

559
00:46:07.280 --> 00:46:12.400
like where this work really emerged as
being necessary. We're in the areas of

560
00:46:12.559 --> 00:46:21.039
humanitarian aid, social activism, you
know, ecological activism. You know,

561
00:46:21.199 --> 00:46:27.199
these were the big complex problems that
weren't being solved, and so this was

562
00:46:27.400 --> 00:46:34.960
these types of practices, these system
innovation practices were necessary in those really big,

563
00:46:35.079 --> 00:46:42.000
messy challenges. I think that's indicative
of just these are the tools for

564
00:46:42.119 --> 00:46:45.400
doing really big, exciting stuff in
the world. And the fact that you

565
00:46:45.440 --> 00:46:50.360
know, commercial environments are now being
disrupted, that those trucks are coming and

566
00:46:50.719 --> 00:46:55.280
running over companies, or that those
big opportunities. It's almost like the commercial

567
00:46:55.280 --> 00:47:00.599
world is now beginning to get on
board with the same sort of actuses and

568
00:47:00.679 --> 00:47:07.639
things that we're actually already being pioneered
in the social and the humanitarian space.

569
00:47:07.159 --> 00:47:10.679
That's so exciting and there it is. Dan, We've managed to go through

570
00:47:10.679 --> 00:47:13.880
the whole time on our show here, so we've come to the end,

571
00:47:13.920 --> 00:47:15.639
I want to give you the chance
to be able to leave our listeners with

572
00:47:15.679 --> 00:47:19.159
what you'd like to leave them with. Say, in under twenty seconds with

573
00:47:19.320 --> 00:47:22.239
listeners across the globe, you know
what the show is about. How would

574
00:47:22.239 --> 00:47:25.400
you like to close? I would
say it's exciting to reinvent the world,

575
00:47:25.800 --> 00:47:32.960
and we are uniquely privileged as people
to live in an era where we're empowered

576
00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:37.599
to do that. So let's go
out and change things in a big,

577
00:47:37.679 --> 00:47:43.039
complex way. Sounds good. I'm
in Dan, Thank you so much for

578
00:47:43.079 --> 00:47:45.400
being a guest. I'm so glad
I found you that you came on my

579
00:47:45.480 --> 00:47:46.400
radar. It has been a delight
to talk with you. And yes,

580
00:47:46.480 --> 00:47:50.280
let's go help change and elevate the
world. It sounds good to me.

581
00:47:50.519 --> 00:47:52.960
Thanks a nice so welcome listeners and
viewers. If you want to learn more

582
00:47:52.960 --> 00:47:55.920
about Dan McLure, his articles,
or the work he does, start by

583
00:47:57.000 --> 00:48:00.239
visiting innovation ecosystem dot com. Last
week, you missed the live show,

584
00:48:00.239 --> 00:48:04.280
I can always catch a recorded podcast. We are on the Earth Rabbi doctor

585
00:48:04.320 --> 00:48:08.000
Baruch Kleeve talking about his work in
our same field of logotherapy and unleashing the

586
00:48:08.039 --> 00:48:13.360
defiant power of the human spirit to
transform tragedy into triumph and darkness into light.

587
00:48:13.639 --> 00:48:16.920
It was an incredibly beautiful exposaveus brilliant
mind, heart and soul that invites

588
00:48:17.039 --> 00:48:20.960
us all to travel inward and saver
the journey. Next week will be on

589
00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:23.239
the air Row with Nikolaitch and Nielsen, who is the co author of Return

590
00:48:23.280 --> 00:48:27.559
on Ambition, a radical approach to
your achievement, growth and well Being,

591
00:48:27.880 --> 00:48:30.559
talking about how to best steward our
achievement and how leaders can foster environments where

592
00:48:30.599 --> 00:48:34.760
ambitious people thrive. See you there. Remember that work is at least a

593
00:48:34.760 --> 00:48:38.199
third of our lives, So let's
work on purpose. We hope you've enjoyed

594
00:48:38.199 --> 00:48:43.960
this week's program. Be sure to
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host,

595
00:48:44.000 --> 00:48:49.360
doctor Elise Cortez, each week on
the Voice America Empowerment Channel. Together,

596
00:48:49.639 --> 00:48:55.119
we'll create a world where business operates
conscientiously, leadership inspires impassioned performance,

597
00:48:55.519 --> 00:49:00.880
and employees are fulfilled in work that
provides the meaning and beis they crave.

598
00:49:00.639 --> 00:49:04.239
See you there, Let's work on
Purpose.