April 22, 2025

Unconventional Psychology Hacks for Bold, Human-Centered Leadership

Unconventional Psychology Hacks for Bold, Human-Centered Leadership
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Compare yourself to others. Think about death. Love your worry. Strange advice? Maybe. But leadership enthusiast Sebastien Page makes a powerful case for flipping conventional wisdom on its head. Drawing from positive, sports, and personality psychology, he shares bold, counterintuitive strategies to help you lead with more humanity, clarity, and impact.

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The topics and opinions expressed in the following show are

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solely those of the hosts and their guests, and not

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What's working on Purpose?

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Anyway? Each week we ponder the answer to this question.

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People ache for meaning and purpose at work, to contribute

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their talents passionately and know their lives really matter. They

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crave being part of an organization that inspires them and

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helps them grow into realizing their highest potential. Business can

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be such a force for good in the world, elevating humanity.

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In our program, we provide guidance and inspiration to help

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usher in this world we all want working on Purpose.

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Now here's your host, doctor Elise Cortes.

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Welcome back to the Working in a Purpose program, which

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has been brought to you with passion and pride since

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February of twenty fifteen. Thanks for tuning in this week.

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Great to have you. I'm your host, doctor Elise core Test.

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If we have not met before and you don't know me,

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I am a workforce advisor, organizational psychologist, management consultant, logo therapist,

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speaker and author. My team and I at Gusto now

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help companies to enlive and in fortify their operations by

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building a dynamic, high performance culture and inspirational leadership activated

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by meaning and purpose. And did you know that inspired

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employees outperform their satisfied peers by a factor of two

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point twenty five to one. In other words, inspiration is

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good for the bottom line. You can learn more about

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us on how we can work together at Gusto dshnow

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dot com or my personal site atliscore Test dot com.

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Before we get into today's program, I am thrilled to

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announce that registration has been open for a fabulous new

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conference for women for which I will service the MC.

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It's called Thrive and twenty five and it's a jam

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packed few days in Chicago June twenty fifth through the

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your life to raise consciousness and much more. Visit thrive

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Use my promo code of Gusto all Caps to gain

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access to the free books and programs. I'll be gifting

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registrants as well. Getting In today's program, we have with

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us Sebastian Page, the head of Global multi asset and

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Chief Investment Officer at tro Price. He has more than

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two decades of leadership experience and has done extensive research

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on positive sports and personality psychology. He currently oversees a

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team of investment professionals actively managing over five hundred billion

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dollars in assets under management. He's written too finance books

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and appears regularly on CNBC and Bloomberg TV. We'll be

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talking about his latest book, The Psychology of Leadership, Timeless

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Principles to improve your management of individuals, teams, and yourself.

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We'll talk specifically about the principle's discus us through the

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lens of positive psychology, sports psychology and positive psychology. Sebastian

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joins us from Baltimore, Maryland. Sebastian, A hearty welcome to working.

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On a purpose, Lise, thank you. I'm super excited. I

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love doing podcasts. You mentioned CNBC interviews. I think the

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podcasts are much more relaxed, much more farn.

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I'm so glad. I'm delighted to have you here. And

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of course you know I love your ankset. Once upon

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a time I could speak a little lu Francaise, so

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I'm delighted to hear accent as well. But let's celebrate

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this beautiful thing you brought into the world. Look at

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this gorgeous piece of work, The Psychology of Leadership. It's

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just beautiful. Sebastian. And as we were talking before we

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got on air, you know, it takes a lot to

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one create the book, and then once you write the

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whole entire book and everything, it's all published, you're like

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thirty percent done. Then it's you know, then you've got

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to promote the thing. So so happy to have you

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on to talk about your work.

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Thank you, Thank you for having me.

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Very welcome. Well let's let's just just di spell the

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curiosity right out of the I'm sure listeners and viewers

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are wondering why did this finance money management executive write

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a book on self improvement in leadership? Did something happen

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to you? Elise?

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You know that question. I've gotten it from about two

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hundred agents who rejected represent me for the book. Thankfully,

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I found a great agent and a great publisher. Look,

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I was struggling at work. I was stressed, and I

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was beating myself up for being stressed. I have a

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high pressure job. But I kept thinking, I've been doing

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this for over twenty years. Why am I so stressed?

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So I started talking to a sports psychologist and the

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first time I met him, he told me a story

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and it changed how I view psychology. He walks me

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through his best handball match. Ever, it turns out not

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only easy APHD sports psychologist, he's also a pro athlete.

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He's won forty national titles at the sport of handball.

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At least this is like squash, but you hit the

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ball with your hands. Now forty national titles. His name

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is doctor Daniel Zimmitt. He starts telling me the story

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of his best match. It was ten years ago. He

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remembers everything about it. He remembers where the ball was

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at every point in the match, it's emotional for him

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at the point he recalls being on his knees and

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making an impossible shot. You remember the sounds, everything, And

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at least it's a complete leaddown because he then goes, oh, yeah,

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I lost the other two points. I go, wait, you

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lost the match and he goes yes. But to him,

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as a sports psychologist, it was irrelevant. What was most

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important to him was that he was playing a much

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stronger opponent and that day on the court, he realized

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that he'd improved his skills dramatically and that he was

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able to play at a different level. So just think

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about the mindset of someone who has forty national titles,

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who's talking about their best match ever and they happened

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to have lost the match and it almost doesn't matter.

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At least this kicked off research in sports psychology and

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what it's about, and then I hired him as a

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consultant to help with the research. We went into positive psychology,

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which is about what makes people thrive in the long run,

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and then maybe the most fun personality psychology and not

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just introversion, extraversion, other personality traits and how they drive

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some of our behaviors and how we interact with each other.

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The bottom line release is it started with that conversation,

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ended up with fascinating research, and I've just come to

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realize that business leadership self improvement. There are a lot

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of findings in the research in those fields that have

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yet to be explored, and some of them are counterintuitive.

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Well, of course, you know, as you might know about

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my background, I'm delighted to have a conversation with you

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as somebody who isn't necessarily immediately schooled in those topics

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because my main education is in positive psychology and existential psychology.

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I then taught for many years various things like social psychology,

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personality psychology, So it's totally my damn So it's delightful

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to see how you're getting so much value out of

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it and applying it into your own life and your

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own leadership. It's terrific.

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And to me, at least, I just kept reading about it,

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learning about it and thinking, wow, why don't more people

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know about this? Right?

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Right?

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Serious research over decades, and for example, work Marty Seligman

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did on positive psychology and what types of long term

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goals you should set for yourself to maximize your ability

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to thrive over time. It's just a gold mine. And

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we're all sitting here in business struggling with stress and

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setting goals as leaders, and we underestimate what people like

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you have done in research and it's kind of in

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the drawer and we have to look at this and

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use it.

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I completely agree, and it works, by the way, So

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you brought it, Marty Suliman. I certainly am a huge

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fan of doctor Seliman, and you write and some of

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the core stuff you've drawn in your book is what

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he calls his Perma model. So let's just quickly treat

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that for our listeners and viewers, if you'll run through

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that for us.

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I don't like acronyms. I'm a money management person. In finance,

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we have all these acronyms, and then you go into technology,

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we have all these acronyms everywhere. This one acronym, I

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love it. I use it in the book. I've devised

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chapters around it. Perma stands for positive emotions, engagement, positive

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relationships meaning something you talk a lot about on your show,

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and accomplishment, but in the sense of long term accomplishment.

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And what Seligman says is every day we're all after

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positive emotions and they're nice, you laugh, you get a

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like on social media, you get a good glass of wine.

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But unfortunately, some people aren't wired to experience positive emotion.

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It goes all the way to clinical depression. But irma

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is where the substance is. Irma is where your ability

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to thrive long term comes in. These are the things

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that feed your soul for the long run. I refer

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to positive emotion as sugar highs and irma as the

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proteins for the soul. So you might think, what does

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this have to do with business and leadership? A lot,

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a lot, because guess what a business is about relationships.

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There's a crisis of meaning in corporate America. I love

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your show and I've listened to prior EPs, and it's

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so important to talk about meaning. I was at a

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town hall today talking about what we do in our

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business in retirement and the meaning of managing the money

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to give people better retirements. So all these things in

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positive psychology have huge applications in business, and at least

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it comes down to goals as a leader, and you

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don't have to manage people to be a leader. You're

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a leader in your family, you're a leader in your church,

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you're a leader. You lead by example. As a leader,

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you're the ones setting the goals, because if you don't

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set the goals, who.

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Will, right, right, And that's one of the things I

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really appreciate about your book, Sebastian. There are many things,

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but I also really like how you turn some of

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these common ideas under side and then you treat them differently,

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and I really really really love that. It's delightful. And

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so you do spend a third of your book is

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actually talking about setting long term goals based on positive psychology,

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and you talk about everyday life and all this. But

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can you say but you also then go on to say, though,

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that it is said that measurable goals can become liabilities

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if they make leaders blind to ethics and burnout. So

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could you talk a little bit more about how leaders

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can balance goal setting with maintaining well being and ethical standards.

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This is super important. It's part of my own journey.

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Early in my career, I had what psychologists call goal

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induced blindness. I was working non stop, traveling NonStop, I

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was deprived, I was stressed, And there's a story in

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the Psychology of I almost died from a mysterious infection.

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I think because my body was completely run down, I

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made a full recovery, but that was full on goal

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induced blindness. When we talk about goal induce blindness, we

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mean that you're so focused on your measurable goal, because

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it's usually a measurable goal, you lose sight of other

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things that matter, like your health in my case, or

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your sense of ethics. And those companies will start cheating

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just to reach their goals. Volkswagen famously d on their

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emissions numbers, Wells Fargo created dummy accounts just to boost

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their account numbers. So and here I need to pause

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at least because measurable goals are great. They're actually incredibly helpful, useful, motivating.

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You need them to run a business, and it helps

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to lead organizations to use measurable goals. But to your

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point about counter into it, if fine, goal induce blindness

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is greatly underrated. At least, just to illustrate for our

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listeners and viewers, this is a question I asked a

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group of students three weeks ago, and I'm going to

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ask you. I know what you're going to answer because

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you studied positive psychology, but just rhetorically, I'm going to

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ask you the same question, and our listeners can think

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about what their answer would be. And this is about

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goal induce blindness. I was in front of a thousand

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money management students, finance students, and I offered them. I said,

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if I show you a jar of gummies and there's

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one hundred gummies, four of them are going to kill

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you because they're poisoned. What would it take for me

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to convince you to have one of those gummies to

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eat it? And I started by offering a million dollars

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and I went all the way to a billion dollars.

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And those were students in their twenties. And what shocked

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me was that maybe fifteen percent of the room had

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their hand up at a million dollars. Wow, that is

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goal induced blindness. And there's the reason why I picked

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four gummans out of one hundred. Because in the psychology research,

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Mount Everest debts are used as the prime example of

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goal induced blindness. And at least if you want to

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climb Everest, statistically, based on the historical data, you have

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four percent chance of dying in the process. Those are

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extreme examples of goal induced blindness. But if you don't

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take time to think long term, to think in the

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frame of positive psychology, you're going to chase money. Eighty

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one percent of millennials, when asked, say they want to

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be rich. That's their goal. It's not a bad goal,

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by the way, go ahead, follow that goal, but there's

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nuance that matters, and that's goal induced blindness.

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Completely align with that, dear friend already, my new friend,

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let's a little bit. You mentioned the Permian model that

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the RS for relationships prioritizing relationships in leadership, and it really,

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of course completely echo the idea of in so doing

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that you give ongoing, honest feedback to the people, such

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that annual reviews or even semi annual reviews become completely

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redundant and irrelevant. So can you talk a little bit

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more about why this is so important, especially when it

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relates to leadership through a lens of positive psychology.

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Look, we know from the Harvard study that relationships are

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the number one factor that explains people's ability to thrive

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over long periods of time. Being a positive psychology expert,

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I'm sure you've followed the Harvard study. I love it

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because there's no study like it. They've studied people over

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eighty years, eight decades they've had multiple generations of researchers.

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They constantly ask people throughout their lifetime, how are you doing?

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Here's the questionnaire for you to fill, And then they

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try to do statistical analysis. Are the people that are

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making more money, that are climbing the social ladder, that

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are healthy, happier than those that are losing their jobs,

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that are sick, that are maybe going to jail And

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there's no relationship, there's no connection to self reported happiness scores.

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And the one factor that surfaced is the quality of

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one's relationship in one's life. We talk about meaning at

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work and engagement at work. If you have a bad

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day at work, I'm going to bet that eight out

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of ten times, it's a relationship issue. So that's why

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relationships are important. Relationships mean collaboration. Companies are put together

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or teams are put together to create a sum of

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the parts that's bigger than individual efforts. So it's crucial

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to your question on the feedback. Athletes love feedback. If

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we go back to sports psychology. They want to coach

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who tells them, okay, a tennis player, change your swing.

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Do this. They love the live feedback. But somehow when

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it comes to work. We all hate it. I was

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the same myself. Why is that there's no real reason

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why we.

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Should say how badly it's given? Usually?

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Yes? And uh, doctor Rock, who's a neuroscientist, doctor David Rock,

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has done research on how to improve feedback. So part

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of it at least is, as you said, give it

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frequently enough on a live basis such that the year

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end review becomes almost useless. Not useless because there's no feedback,

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but useless because the feedback is known. But also the trick,

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and this is from neuroscience to improve the feedback process

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is to ask for it.

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Yes, right.

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What doctor David Rock found is and they had people

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why to these machines and trying to measure their stress response,

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their heartbeat, whether they were sweating in the feedback process,

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and they just made this tweak ask for the feedback.

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And that reduces the stress at least not just of

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the person receiving the feedback, it reduces the stress of

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the person giving the feedback. I totally understand because guess what,

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I'm a people menagement people measure for twenty five years.

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It's stressful to me to give feedback because I don't

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know how you're going to react, and I care about

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our relationship. Yes, if you go around that work and

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just flip that, and as a leader you go and

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ask for feedback and then people see you do it,

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then they do it. You change the culture and the

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whole pressure around it goes down significantly.

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I'm going to tell a story about how that I've

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used that across my life. But let's grab our first break.

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I'm your host, doctor Eleas Cortez. We've run the air

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of Sebastian page These the head of the global multi

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asset and chief investment officer at tro Price. We've been

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starting this conversation talking about positive psychology and how it

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can be used to improve individuals and management, management and leadership.

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After the break, we're going to start talking about how

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sports psychology can do the same. We'll be right back.

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Doctor Elise Cortez is a management consultant specializing in meaning

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and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies

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visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired

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leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and

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commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite

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a lease to speak to your organization, please visit her

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at Elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get

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your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose

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with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or

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to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to

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Elise alisee at eliscortes dot com. Now back to working

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on Purpose.

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Thanks for stating with us, and welcome back to working

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on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes, as I

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am dedicated to help and create a world where organizations

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thrive because their people thrive are led by inspirational leaders

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that help them find and contribute their greatness, and we

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do business that betters the world. I keep researching and

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writing my own books. So one of my latest came out.

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It's called The Great Revitalization. How activating meaning and purpose

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can radically in live on your business. And I wrote

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it to help leaders understand what today's discerning workforce really

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wants to give their best and stick around. And then

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I provide twenty two best practices to help you build

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that into your culture to give that to them. You

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can find my books on Amazon or my personal site,

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Eliscortes dot com if you are just now joining us.

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My guest is Sebastian Page. He's the author of the

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Psychology of Leadership, Timeless Principles to improve your management of individuals, teams,

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and yourself. So the story really quick to just to

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illustrate the power of asking for a feedback, which I

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know you will appreciate because you are originally from Canada

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and your first language is French. When I moved to

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Spain in my mid twenties, I had learned French in

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college and I had learned that basically, but then I

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didn't know a whole lot about Spanish. So I just

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immediately when I was out talking to people, I would say,

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you know me, boy espaneur, you know, would you just

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please correct me as I go? And the invitation of

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just saying would you please correct me as I go?

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To your point, I could go on and be comfortable

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and confident because I've already asked for their feedback, and

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they could easily say, well, hey, it's this tense, use

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this tense, and it was just easy, right, So to

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your point, both of us were enjoying the process. I

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rapidly improved how I could speak Spanish in the later

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Portuguese and everybody's having a good time. So an illustration

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of how really soliciting the feedback is so much better

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for everything. And I love the idea of baking that

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into the culture absolutely.

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And what you describe is a little bit like being

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coached in sports. And as I said earlier in the moment, yeah,

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if athletes love feedback, and also the highest level athletes

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in pretty much any sport have coaches and they seek

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the feedback to get better, why don't we think about

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it the same way at work?

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You know, it's interesting you say that just quickly, Sebastian.

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I remember a time when not that distance, maybe ten

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fifteen years ago really that I think people still thought of, oh,

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she's got a coach. In other words, you're a problem child,

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there's something wrong with you. And now what we see

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is people recognize if you want to be really top

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of your game, you need a coach. And I always

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have at least two, by the way. So yeah, that

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whole idea of how we interact, how leaders and business

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people interact with coaches, as I think gratefully certainly turning

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the corner quite substantially.

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And the new thing now sports and beyond is sports psychologists.

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I have in the Psychology of Leadership the story of

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Felix Boomgardner. Most people don't remember this. It was over

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ten years ago. He flew up in a balloon to

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the edge of space and d dived down, yes, twenty

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four miles. He was free falling for four minutes. He

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was wearing a special suit. He was the first human

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being to break the sound barrier without being in an airplane.

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And what most people don't know is this whole thing.

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He was coached by a sports psychologist. And baseball teams

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pro baseball teams eighty percent of them report having a

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sports psychologist on staff, and I will guess that the

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remaining twenty percent are just not telling you. And so

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there's coaching. There's mental coaching too.

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No question. I had a doctor Nate Zenser on my

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podcast some time ago and he, yeah, you know him,

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he's a maze. So he's got a who book on

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non confidence, and he coaches elite athletes and Olympic athletes,

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and of course, being stationed at West Point, people that

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are planning to go into the leadership ranks within the army.

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If you need just a little bit of confidence, to

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do any of those kinds of roles. So yeah, this

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is really becoming quite quite nuanced, which of course I love.

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Now you open the show Sebastian talking about stress, and

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certainly part of what we're learning is there are ways

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to be able to start to reduce our stress or

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how we experience it through psychology and sports psychology in particular,

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And I think it's interesting, and I certainly in line

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you say that, you suggest that high performance isn't about

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avoiding stress but knowing how to optimize it. Completely agree

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and say.

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More well to me, actually was a big realization because

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I was going about my high pressure job always always

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trying to feel less stressed and beating myself up. I

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should be a cool, calm and collected executive I've been

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doing for twenty years. Yes, it's a stressful job, but

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I need to bring my stress down down, down, down, down,

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And talking with a sports psychologist kind of change my

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thinking on this. This might be one of the biggest

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findings for me in terms of self improvement in the

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psychology of leadership. I would summarize it this way, lies

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optimal performance does not happen at a zero stress level.

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Another think about it is stress can increase performance. The

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point after which you choke, you burn out. It's bad

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for your health. But there's a curve, and the research

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behind this goes back decades and it's absolutely fascinating. A

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little bit quirky. The research started on Japanese dancing mice.

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At least, I won't go into the scientific research of

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how this started. It's in the psychology of leadership. But

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I will say this, you can draw curve that maps

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performance to your stress level. Now, if you're sports psychologist,

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you're probably cringing right now, because sports psychologists are careful

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with how they define stress. They reframe it with terms

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such as arousal in the literature or activation. Part of

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handling stress is reframing it. So I'm using stress as

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a broad term here, deviating a bit from the scientific literature.

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Here's the fascinating part of those curves. They're called Yerks

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Dodson's curves. They're different for different tasks. So if you

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go to sports, if you want to do powerlifting or sprinting,

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you're going to reach peak performance at a very high

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activation or stress level. You want your adrenaline to be

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through the roof to do one hundred meter dash, or

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to try a powerlifting task, if you're going to take

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a math test, or if you're going to do archery,

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you actually, we are going to perform optimally, not at

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zero stress. You've got to care about it, prepare for it,

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and get activated for it. But your peak of your

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curve for that task is going to be at a

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lower stress level. So imagine now you run a business

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and you have a team, and you want to think

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about optimal team performance. Well, it's the same thing. We

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have tasks that are simple, straightforward where you can put

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a very aggressive metric. We're digging a ditch today. Everybody,

461
00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:33.119
grab a shovel, let's go, let's be done in two hours.

462
00:27:34.279 --> 00:27:40.200
Other tasks like research and development will be optimized at

463
00:27:40.200 --> 00:27:42.599
a lower amount of pressure. I'm not going to go

464
00:27:42.680 --> 00:27:46.200
to my research and development team and scream at them innovate,

465
00:27:46.400 --> 00:27:51.119
innovate by tomorrow. It's unproductive. So but to me, it's

466
00:27:51.160 --> 00:27:55.920
just so important to realize that Tim Ferriss, who's great author,

467
00:27:56.759 --> 00:28:00.480
has said I like to quote him, embracing as a

468
00:28:00.519 --> 00:28:05.400
superpower if you can reach that optimal point. And here's

469
00:28:05.480 --> 00:28:10.359
one more thing, at least about those curves, they're different

470
00:28:10.400 --> 00:28:14.720
for different people. Yeah, and so you have to learn

471
00:28:14.960 --> 00:28:20.599
yourself where you can optimize your performance, and also you

472
00:28:20.640 --> 00:28:24.160
can work on them. You can work on them, you

473
00:28:24.200 --> 00:28:28.960
can increase your stress tolerance. At least. I talk about

474
00:28:29.079 --> 00:28:34.079
Neil Armstrong in the book. Neil Armstrong was just remarkable.

475
00:28:34.279 --> 00:28:39.480
Everyone knows about the moon landing. It famously went horribly wrong.

476
00:28:39.880 --> 00:28:43.960
The module basically ran out of fuel, they lost connection

477
00:28:44.759 --> 00:28:50.400
with Earth, they veered off course, and the computer wasn't working.

478
00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:56.359
Armstrong took control of the module and lended it in

479
00:28:56.440 --> 00:28:59.680
a different spot than they were supposed to, but handled it,

480
00:29:00.119 --> 00:29:04.319
and the rest is part of human history. He famously said,

481
00:29:04.359 --> 00:29:08.599
it's one small step for men, one giant leap for mankind.

482
00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:12.960
The titbit behind that story is as an astronaut, he

483
00:29:13.039 --> 00:29:16.519
was hooked to a heart rate monitor and for most

484
00:29:16.599 --> 00:29:19.799
of the mission at least can you guess what his

485
00:29:19.960 --> 00:29:20.839
heart rate was?

486
00:29:22.359 --> 00:29:26.920
Well, let's see, that was a difficult task, so one

487
00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:30.519
hundred and eighty eight, So that would be.

488
00:29:31.960 --> 00:29:34.960
Very high stress, full adrenaline one hundred and eighty eight,

489
00:29:35.039 --> 00:29:37.440
or full physical effort for a lot of people. I

490
00:29:37.480 --> 00:29:39.960
can't even get mine to one hundred and eighty eight.

491
00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:44.759
His heart rate for most of the mission was seventy five.

492
00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:47.279
Which was sometimes blood pressure.

493
00:29:47.319 --> 00:29:51.680
I guess, yeah, basically for most people there's some effect

494
00:29:51.799 --> 00:29:55.160
with space, but for most people's arresting heart rate. It

495
00:29:55.240 --> 00:29:57.400
did go to one hundred and fifty when he landed.

496
00:29:58.039 --> 00:30:02.920
But here's someone who can handle high pressure situations, who

497
00:30:02.920 --> 00:30:06.640
has built a stress tolerance. How did he do that? Repetition?

498
00:30:07.079 --> 00:30:11.720
Repetition is huge, repetition and exposure. He was a jet

499
00:30:11.720 --> 00:30:16.440
fighter pilot in the war. And also did you know that?

500
00:30:17.839 --> 00:30:21.680
And also he was just wired that way. But you

501
00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:25.440
can learn to move your own stress curve, which I

502
00:30:25.480 --> 00:30:29.799
find fascinating. And you mentioned doctor Knight Sencer. His book

503
00:30:29.839 --> 00:30:35.359
is about that visualization, Uh, you know, building your own confidence,

504
00:30:35.640 --> 00:30:36.839
having a mantra and so on.

505
00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:40.440
Yeah, oh, this is so yummy. I knew we were

506
00:30:40.440 --> 00:30:42.319
gonna have a great conversation, Sebastian. There's so much I

507
00:30:42.359 --> 00:30:44.720
can extract out of you. Okay, So for just this

508
00:30:44.799 --> 00:30:47.799
last bit on sports psychology, I would be remiss if

509
00:30:47.799 --> 00:30:49.359
I didn't get you to talk about one of the

510
00:30:49.359 --> 00:30:52.039
other things that you know that are counterintuitive that you

511
00:30:52.160 --> 00:30:55.720
suggest we do address, and that is thinking about death

512
00:30:55.839 --> 00:30:58.440
and working backward from your goal. We don't usually talk

513
00:30:58.440 --> 00:31:00.799
about death in this society.

514
00:31:00.920 --> 00:31:05.160
It sounds morbid, but it goes back to Stoicism, which

515
00:31:05.200 --> 00:31:10.799
is more philosophy than psychology. And the original title for

516
00:31:10.920 --> 00:31:15.640
my manuscript was The End in Mind, and it was

517
00:31:15.680 --> 00:31:20.680
a nod to Stephen Covey, who the most popular self

518
00:31:20.759 --> 00:31:24.079
help self improvement book of all time, the Seven Habits

519
00:31:24.079 --> 00:31:27.319
of Highly Successful People. One of the habits was begin

520
00:31:27.400 --> 00:31:30.240
with the end in mind, think very long term. What

521
00:31:30.319 --> 00:31:35.000
covie was saying was by doing that, you can figure

522
00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:38.839
out what your values are, what you want to be

523
00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:43.079
as a person, what you want to achieve in your lifetime,

524
00:31:43.799 --> 00:31:46.559
what do you want to reflect on on your deathbed,

525
00:31:47.319 --> 00:31:49.559
and that guides your values and then you bring it

526
00:31:49.599 --> 00:31:52.519
back to the present and it helps you make decisions.

527
00:31:53.240 --> 00:31:55.799
So that's awesome, and that's part of what I talk

528
00:31:55.880 --> 00:31:59.880
about in the Psychology of Leadership. But the other thing, too,

529
00:32:00.079 --> 00:32:03.200
is that when you set a long term goal, anything

530
00:32:03.279 --> 00:32:07.160
becomes possible because you have the benefit of time, and

531
00:32:07.759 --> 00:32:12.279
it just changes your perspective and to me, and to

532
00:32:12.680 --> 00:32:18.079
the Stoics and to most people, when you take time

533
00:32:18.119 --> 00:32:21.920
to think about this, thinking about the fact that, hey,

534
00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:25.640
we're all going to die, one day. Have this ring

535
00:32:25.680 --> 00:32:28.000
on my finger that has a little sign. It says

536
00:32:28.039 --> 00:32:32.240
memento maori, which means remember you must die. It actually

537
00:32:32.359 --> 00:32:33.319
is very soothing.

538
00:32:34.759 --> 00:32:35.400
I understand.

539
00:32:35.839 --> 00:32:37.839
What does it matter that I stub my toe on

540
00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:41.079
the side of the bed right now? If you know

541
00:32:41.559 --> 00:32:46.160
this is all cosmically a very long term experiment, then

542
00:32:46.319 --> 00:32:48.880
you know we're all going to die one day. So

543
00:32:49.160 --> 00:32:52.480
there's a way to reframe your thinking around this, thinking

544
00:32:52.519 --> 00:32:57.039
long term, working backwards from there, building resilience around it,

545
00:32:57.599 --> 00:33:01.720
and helping these long term perspectives guide your values and

546
00:33:01.839 --> 00:33:02.920
day to day decisions.

547
00:33:03.880 --> 00:33:05.920
I love that to where that rings. Sebastian, you know

548
00:33:06.079 --> 00:33:08.839
as a meaning and purpose woman. So you know, purpose

549
00:33:08.839 --> 00:33:10.680
works in part because we are mortal beings that we

550
00:33:10.680 --> 00:33:12.480
don't know when we're going to hit the excep ramp.

551
00:33:12.839 --> 00:33:15.960
And so the older we get, often especially I can

552
00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:19.240
put myself in this camp, the more fixated we can

553
00:33:19.279 --> 00:33:21.119
get on the things that we want to make happen

554
00:33:21.200 --> 00:33:23.480
in our lives because we know that we don't get forever.

555
00:33:24.319 --> 00:33:28.400
And it's a tremendous It gives us tremendous clarity, tremendous focus,

556
00:33:28.599 --> 00:33:33.480
tremendous energy and motivation. So I'm with you on embracing

557
00:33:33.519 --> 00:33:34.039
this death thing.

558
00:33:36.400 --> 00:33:39.000
I guess we're taking a for maybe for some of

559
00:33:39.000 --> 00:33:43.240
our listeners a morbid turned but it's really a different

560
00:33:43.279 --> 00:33:46.960
frame of mind, and it's I find it a positive thing.

561
00:33:47.319 --> 00:33:47.680
It is.

562
00:33:47.799 --> 00:33:50.799
It certainly is positive for me. Let's let our listeners

563
00:33:50.799 --> 00:33:52.559
and viewers reflect on that for just a moment see

564
00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:55.079
where they can find the positive piece of that. I'm

565
00:33:55.119 --> 00:33:57.119
your host, Doctor Really's Cortez. We're on the air with

566
00:33:57.160 --> 00:34:00.480
Sebastian Page, the head of Global Multi ass and chief

567
00:34:00.519 --> 00:34:03.240
investment officer at tro Price. We've been talking a bit

568
00:34:03.240 --> 00:34:05.960
about how we can use sports psychology to improve our

569
00:34:06.039 --> 00:34:09.920
own experience of life and also our effectiveness at leadership.

570
00:34:09.960 --> 00:34:11.519
After the rik, we're going to talk about how we

571
00:34:11.559 --> 00:34:14.719
can do that with personality psychology. We'll be right back.

572
00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:34.280
Doctor Elise Cortez is a management consultant specializing in meaning

573
00:34:34.320 --> 00:34:38.159
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies

574
00:34:38.239 --> 00:34:42.039
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired

575
00:34:42.119 --> 00:34:46.079
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and

576
00:34:46.159 --> 00:34:49.360
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite

577
00:34:49.400 --> 00:34:52.119
a lease to speak to your organization, please visit her

578
00:34:52.199 --> 00:34:55.440
at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get

579
00:34:55.480 --> 00:35:04.239
your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose

580
00:35:04.360 --> 00:35:07.639
with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or

581
00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:10.440
to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to

582
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:16.519
Elise alisee at elisecortes dot com. Now back to working

583
00:35:16.599 --> 00:35:17.280
on Purpose.

584
00:35:21.880 --> 00:35:23.639
Thanks for stating with us, and welcome back to working

585
00:35:23.679 --> 00:35:26.480
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes. I mentioned

586
00:35:26.519 --> 00:35:28.400
in the last break that one of my books came out,

587
00:35:28.440 --> 00:35:30.599
The Great Vitalization. What I did for you is I

588
00:35:30.599 --> 00:35:33.519
created a very simple three page assessment that's on my

589
00:35:33.559 --> 00:35:36.440
website gustodashnow dot com that you can download and it

590
00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:38.760
will help you understand the extent to which your current

591
00:35:38.760 --> 00:35:42.320
culture is meeting the needs of today's discerning workforce. If

592
00:35:42.320 --> 00:35:44.760
you are just now joining us, my guest is Sebastian Paige,

593
00:35:44.800 --> 00:35:48.039
the author of the Psychology of Leadership Timeless Principles to

594
00:35:48.079 --> 00:35:52.480
improve your management of individuals, teams, and yourself. So for

595
00:35:52.559 --> 00:35:56.599
this last section here, of course, I am, as I

596
00:35:56.880 --> 00:36:00.360
mentioned already already very steeped in personality psychology. But let's

597
00:36:00.360 --> 00:36:03.199
start with this simple aspect of you talk about, you know,

598
00:36:03.320 --> 00:36:05.960
the Big five personality theory for those people who have

599
00:36:05.960 --> 00:36:07.480
not been exposed to it. If you could just quickly

600
00:36:07.559 --> 00:36:09.039
introduce the five elements of.

601
00:36:08.960 --> 00:36:12.880
That absolutely, and I'll do a little bit more. I'll

602
00:36:12.920 --> 00:36:16.599
tell you where I stand on each of these traits,

603
00:36:16.880 --> 00:36:19.199
and if your game at least not to put you on.

604
00:36:19.079 --> 00:36:20.239
The spot, I'm in. I'm in.

605
00:36:20.280 --> 00:36:23.559
I'm in as well. So the first one is openness

606
00:36:23.599 --> 00:36:27.159
to experience. If you score high on this trade, you

607
00:36:27.360 --> 00:36:29.639
like to try new things. You're the person who never

608
00:36:29.679 --> 00:36:33.400
wants to go to the same restaurant twice, and you

609
00:36:33.599 --> 00:36:37.079
like novelty. You get bored easily. If you're low in

610
00:36:37.159 --> 00:36:42.840
openness to experience, you're comfortable with routine, repetitive. I eat

611
00:36:42.840 --> 00:36:47.400
the same salad every day, so for lunch, I'm probably

612
00:36:47.480 --> 00:36:50.480
on the lower side in openness to experience.

613
00:36:50.639 --> 00:36:53.159
At least I'm on the very high side.

614
00:36:53.719 --> 00:36:56.599
Awesome, So you're maybe your listener is going to get

615
00:36:56.639 --> 00:37:00.480
to know you a little bit more today. I actually

616
00:37:00.519 --> 00:37:03.119
have my score results in the third part of the

617
00:37:03.159 --> 00:37:04.320
book in more details.

618
00:37:04.320 --> 00:37:06.800
The second trade I appreciate, by the way, I want

619
00:37:06.800 --> 00:37:08.360
to just I want to celebrate that you did that

620
00:37:08.440 --> 00:37:13.159
because I think it's it's authentic, it's open, it's honest,

621
00:37:13.199 --> 00:37:15.679
and it lets us into your world. I really liked

622
00:37:15.679 --> 00:37:16.199
that you did that.

623
00:37:16.840 --> 00:37:20.360
Thank you, Thank you. Second trade is conscientiousness. So if

624
00:37:20.400 --> 00:37:25.320
you're neat, organized on time, you score high in conscientiousness.

625
00:37:25.519 --> 00:37:30.119
If you're creative, a little bit loose with your deadlines,

626
00:37:31.440 --> 00:37:35.159
you're comfortable with incomplete solutions, which, by the way, is

627
00:37:35.159 --> 00:37:37.440
a great thing to do in business sometimes because you

628
00:37:37.480 --> 00:37:40.440
don't have time to analyze everything is very different from

629
00:37:40.480 --> 00:37:45.039
academia in that way. So I scored in the book

630
00:37:45.079 --> 00:37:49.920
you'll see very high in conscientiousness. What by you elise,

631
00:37:50.440 --> 00:37:53.239
middle of the road middle And by the way, as

632
00:37:53.280 --> 00:37:55.360
we're saying this, I think it's important to use the

633
00:37:55.440 --> 00:37:59.800
usual disclaimer. Only about forty percent of your personality traits

634
00:37:59.840 --> 00:38:04.400
are inherited or genetically linked, and so they can change

635
00:38:04.440 --> 00:38:07.639
based on the situation. They can change over time. You

636
00:38:07.679 --> 00:38:10.800
can even change your personality if you want to work

637
00:38:10.840 --> 00:38:13.960
on it. That's I think an important disclaimer. But the

638
00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:18.599
traits just generally describe how you behave in most situations.

639
00:38:19.960 --> 00:38:22.840
Extraversion we all know, right if you're an extrovert. You

640
00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:26.320
get energy from going to social events, and you like

641
00:38:26.440 --> 00:38:29.480
being around people, you tend to like to speak up,

642
00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:33.360
and introverts would be the other side of that scale.

643
00:38:33.719 --> 00:38:37.679
I'm actually in the middle here and in most situations

644
00:38:37.840 --> 00:38:40.440
I'm on the introverted side.

645
00:38:40.599 --> 00:38:44.199
Would mind just the opposite. I'm also an ambrovert and

646
00:38:44.239 --> 00:38:47.119
sit more in the middle, but more just slightly skewed

647
00:38:47.119 --> 00:38:50.400
to the extroverted side. And one other thing to add that,

648
00:38:50.440 --> 00:38:52.199
I think a lot of listeners and viewers don't know

649
00:38:52.239 --> 00:38:56.519
about personal psychology for the introversion extraversion realm is another

650
00:38:56.679 --> 00:39:04.320
part of that is how you handle sensation and what

651
00:39:04.360 --> 00:39:07.320
I'm a what's the word I'm looking for, emulation how

652
00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:10.159
you handle stimulation. So introverts, i mean, you know, can

653
00:39:10.199 --> 00:39:12.960
be really really rigged out by a lot of stimulation,

654
00:39:13.039 --> 00:39:15.639
and extroverts can handle a lot of stimulation. And that's

655
00:39:15.960 --> 00:39:18.519
I think a really important distinction that doesn't usually get

656
00:39:18.559 --> 00:39:21.320
surfaced when we talk about introversion and extraversion.

657
00:39:22.760 --> 00:39:26.519
A good point. The next one is interesting is agreeableness.

658
00:39:27.039 --> 00:39:30.920
So if you're high in agreeableness, you tend to be

659
00:39:31.079 --> 00:39:34.960
maybe a people pleaser, you like to agree with people,

660
00:39:35.239 --> 00:39:39.039
uncomfortable being the devil's advocate. And then the opposite would

661
00:39:39.079 --> 00:39:44.159
be being low agreeableness would be more being more disagreeable.

662
00:39:44.480 --> 00:39:46.880
By the way in the psychology of leadership, I put

663
00:39:47.559 --> 00:39:49.400
I kind of made it up based on what we

664
00:39:49.480 --> 00:39:53.400
know about the celebrities. I put celebrities on both sides.

665
00:39:53.159 --> 00:39:54.440
So I like that.

666
00:39:54.519 --> 00:39:59.440
Actually, yeah, But for me for agreeableness this one and

667
00:39:59.519 --> 00:40:05.440
I was very vulnerable and transparent in the book, I

668
00:40:05.519 --> 00:40:10.000
scored low and agreeableness, and at least I disagreed with

669
00:40:10.079 --> 00:40:13.119
the results.

670
00:40:13.119 --> 00:40:14.639
A bit of a I did.

671
00:40:15.119 --> 00:40:18.880
But actually I ended up taking another test to double check,

672
00:40:19.519 --> 00:40:22.239
and I've had to come around to the idea that

673
00:40:22.320 --> 00:40:27.559
I score somewhat low in agreeableness. I've had a life

674
00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:33.920
that I would describe involving research and intellectual debates, and

675
00:40:33.960 --> 00:40:37.639
maybe after twenty years of doing that, you dis develop

676
00:40:37.760 --> 00:40:44.239
traits where you're comfortable in a respectful, trustful way, but

677
00:40:44.599 --> 00:40:47.400
disagreeing with people and kind of you build a reflex

678
00:40:48.000 --> 00:40:50.480
in academia, that's kind of the case for a lot

679
00:40:50.480 --> 00:40:54.760
of people. So putting you on the spot again ales. Well.

680
00:40:55.039 --> 00:40:57.400
What's interesting is it's evolved a bit over time as

681
00:40:57.440 --> 00:41:00.000
I've grown as a person. It used to be much higher.

682
00:41:00.480 --> 00:41:04.199
My agreeableness now it's it's more like you know, in

683
00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:07.199
like the eighty five or so sort of realm, and

684
00:41:07.679 --> 00:41:09.239
so I have learned and I like how you put

685
00:41:09.280 --> 00:41:12.800
forth the idea that this is some disagreeableness is essential

686
00:41:12.840 --> 00:41:15.480
to be an effective leader. And that's come as I've

687
00:41:15.800 --> 00:41:17.960
been more discerning in my thought leadership and where do

688
00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:19.719
I agree with this and where do I disagree with that?

689
00:41:20.360 --> 00:41:23.280
So it's its definitely evolved, but today it's about eighty

690
00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:24.000
five percent.

691
00:41:25.760 --> 00:41:29.760
So we're different in that way. And then neuroticism is

692
00:41:29.960 --> 00:41:34.000
do you tend to get nervous anxious, especially anticipating the future?

693
00:41:34.440 --> 00:41:37.679
I score high. I think it's part of how I perform,

694
00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:41.880
and that's why I studied the implications of stress from sports,

695
00:41:41.920 --> 00:41:45.639
psychology and business and life. So I have to admit

696
00:41:45.800 --> 00:41:47.599
I score fairly high.

697
00:41:47.679 --> 00:41:49.679
And I'm also pretty low on that one as well,

698
00:41:50.679 --> 00:41:52.679
and I understand and I like how, and so I

699
00:41:52.679 --> 00:41:54.079
want to get through as many as as we can,

700
00:41:54.159 --> 00:41:56.280
because again, once again in this part of your book,

701
00:41:56.480 --> 00:42:01.000
you're turning some standard sort of accepted ideas on their heads,

702
00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:03.840
and that's one of them is to be able where

703
00:42:03.840 --> 00:42:06.079
can we actually when does it make sense to lean

704
00:42:06.119 --> 00:42:10.039
into our neuroticism, so and worry a little bit. Okay,

705
00:42:10.079 --> 00:42:12.280
so let's take as many as we can here. I

706
00:42:12.360 --> 00:42:14.440
got to start with the introversion extroversion thing, and I

707
00:42:14.679 --> 00:42:17.519
really have found this in my own work Sebastian, where

708
00:42:17.599 --> 00:42:19.440
you talk about, of course reading the room and to

709
00:42:19.599 --> 00:42:22.880
call on the introverts, because this is really about getting

710
00:42:22.920 --> 00:42:25.079
the best out of everybody, and it's not the most

711
00:42:25.119 --> 00:42:27.800
extroverted person that has the best ideas per se. I

712
00:42:27.800 --> 00:42:30.440
love Susan Kaine's book on an Introversion. I read it

713
00:42:30.480 --> 00:42:32.920
as well. So let's talk a little bit about why

714
00:42:32.960 --> 00:42:35.719
it's so important to call on the introverts and how

715
00:42:35.800 --> 00:42:37.119
we can do so effectively.

716
00:42:38.280 --> 00:42:43.039
Introverts tend to be quite thoughtful about what they want

717
00:42:43.079 --> 00:42:48.880
to contribute. In practice, when I call on someone who's

718
00:42:48.960 --> 00:42:53.280
more introverted, who's been more quiet in the meeting, I

719
00:42:53.320 --> 00:42:54.119
get the best.

720
00:42:53.920 --> 00:42:56.079
Inside absolutely right spot on.

721
00:42:56.519 --> 00:43:03.079
Because talk about contorintuitive findings. Introverts make good leaders, and

722
00:43:04.199 --> 00:43:06.639
most of my career I thought to be a good

723
00:43:06.719 --> 00:43:09.559
leader you need to be a good communicator, and to

724
00:43:09.599 --> 00:43:14.320
a certain extent that's true, but as you climb the ladder,

725
00:43:15.280 --> 00:43:19.719
listening becomes the skill you need as a leader way

726
00:43:19.800 --> 00:43:23.840
more important than your quick quality of your communication style.

727
00:43:24.519 --> 00:43:28.719
It's listening that makes you a better leader. Very counterintuitive

728
00:43:28.800 --> 00:43:32.559
for a lot of leaders, and this is what introverts get, right,

729
00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:35.440
So at least what does it mean in practice in

730
00:43:35.480 --> 00:43:41.039
a meeting? I talk about the pivot method in the

731
00:43:41.079 --> 00:43:44.360
psychology of leadership and I use it in my own

732
00:43:44.480 --> 00:43:50.719
leadership meetings. When an extrovert is dominating the conversation, there's

733
00:43:50.760 --> 00:43:53.760
a polite way to interrupt them, because if you don't,

734
00:43:53.840 --> 00:43:56.519
by the way, and if you're too agreeable and you

735
00:43:56.599 --> 00:43:59.800
can interrupt, the rest of the room is not going

736
00:43:59.840 --> 00:44:02.119
to be happy with you at the leader that's right.

737
00:44:03.159 --> 00:44:07.400
So the polite way is you interrupt, but you then

738
00:44:07.519 --> 00:44:12.559
reflect back what they were saying. So, Paul, you were

739
00:44:12.679 --> 00:44:16.880
saying XYZ. So you're showing the room that what they

740
00:44:16.880 --> 00:44:20.320
were talking about is important. You're showing them that you

741
00:44:20.360 --> 00:44:23.679
were paying attention to what they were talking about, and

742
00:44:23.679 --> 00:44:27.519
that takes a lot of the tension out of the interruption.

743
00:44:28.679 --> 00:44:32.960
Then you turn to the introvert and say, Mary, you've

744
00:44:33.000 --> 00:44:36.400
been listening, what do you think? And this is just

745
00:44:36.400 --> 00:44:39.800
just pivot by reflecting first on what the extrovert was

746
00:44:39.880 --> 00:44:42.079
talking about. Is really helpful. The other one is one

747
00:44:42.119 --> 00:44:45.039
over and at least ann is the number of people

748
00:44:45.079 --> 00:44:47.119
in the meeting. We are having a meeting. Now there's

749
00:44:47.159 --> 00:44:50.559
two of us. One over two means fifty percent means

750
00:44:50.599 --> 00:44:53.000
each of us should This is a different format. I'm

751
00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:57.039
talking more today because an interview in a meeting, you

752
00:44:57.079 --> 00:45:00.360
would say we should each contribute fifty percent. If there's

753
00:45:00.440 --> 00:45:04.760
ten people and equals ten, one over ten, everybody should

754
00:45:04.840 --> 00:45:09.039
contribute equally ten percent. I often remind my team, we're

755
00:45:09.079 --> 00:45:12.960
going to seek to go towards one over. If you're

756
00:45:13.000 --> 00:45:16.440
too quiet, you got to contribute more. If you're dominating

757
00:45:16.519 --> 00:45:18.719
the airtime, you got to contribute a little bit less.

758
00:45:20.079 --> 00:45:23.519
Yeah, I found gold and there's such and I've learned

759
00:45:23.559 --> 00:45:26.400
so much about how to engage interprets in a very

760
00:45:27.119 --> 00:45:29.519
make it safe for them, and so then when they're

761
00:45:29.559 --> 00:45:33.000
ready to engage, so so so important. Okay, we're close

762
00:45:33.039 --> 00:45:34.880
to being out of time here, So let's talk about

763
00:45:34.960 --> 00:45:37.559
something that we haven't actually hit already in your introduction

764
00:45:37.679 --> 00:45:42.039
of the ocean. Here, let's talk about, just for grins

765
00:45:42.079 --> 00:45:45.159
and giggles, how can we cultivate the positive side of

766
00:45:45.159 --> 00:45:50.760
conscientiousness eating our vegetables and having good habits habits.

767
00:45:50.800 --> 00:45:53.920
Habits is the answer. As I said earlier, you can

768
00:45:54.000 --> 00:45:59.679
change your personality, you can become more conscientious. Go back

769
00:45:59.719 --> 00:46:04.360
to James Clear bestseller Atomic Habits or Charles Dohigg's research.

770
00:46:05.079 --> 00:46:13.880
Small habits, when done consistently over time, amount to giant results,

771
00:46:14.320 --> 00:46:18.880
meaningful results. At least you publish books. That's the best example.

772
00:46:19.400 --> 00:46:22.559
You don't sit down and write a book. It's small

773
00:46:22.679 --> 00:46:28.000
writing habit that over time amounts to something awesome. That

774
00:46:28.199 --> 00:46:31.639
is the key to becoming more conscientious. And the research

775
00:46:31.719 --> 00:46:35.079
behind it, especially from Charles Dohig, you need a queue,

776
00:46:35.840 --> 00:46:38.920
then the habit, and then the reward, and the reward

777
00:46:38.960 --> 00:46:42.320
can be anything. So for me, for writing, the queue

778
00:46:42.480 --> 00:46:45.320
was basically, it's Saturday morning, I need to write. That's

779
00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:48.800
the queue. I have a schedule. That's my cueue. And

780
00:46:48.880 --> 00:46:51.880
the habit was writing, and then the reward very simply.

781
00:46:51.920 --> 00:46:54.239
I'd got to spreadsheet and write the number of words

782
00:46:54.239 --> 00:46:56.840
I wrote, and to me was satisfying to see those

783
00:46:56.920 --> 00:47:02.440
numbers line up and add up. You habit reward. Small

784
00:47:02.480 --> 00:47:06.159
habits lead to big results if applied consistently over time.

785
00:47:06.559 --> 00:47:10.519
And by the way, bad habits very bad results if

786
00:47:10.559 --> 00:47:14.280
you keep them up over time. Smoking every day will

787
00:47:14.360 --> 00:47:18.440
lead to a pretty bad result over time, likely lung cancer. Right,

788
00:47:19.719 --> 00:47:22.000
you want to observe your habits and tweak them up

789
00:47:22.039 --> 00:47:23.199
and down, good and bad.

790
00:47:24.119 --> 00:47:26.639
I like very much how you talk about keeping track

791
00:47:26.800 --> 00:47:29.320
of your what you did as well, so you can

792
00:47:29.360 --> 00:47:32.320
actually really see the progress over time. I think that's

793
00:47:32.360 --> 00:47:34.679
an essential part of what you're talking about here, to

794
00:47:34.719 --> 00:47:38.840
cultivate conscientiousness. So we did it, Sebastian. It goes by

795
00:47:38.920 --> 00:47:41.199
so very fast. You know that this show is listening

796
00:47:41.199 --> 00:47:43.440
to by people around the world who are tuning in

797
00:47:43.480 --> 00:47:46.280
for various reasons. Sometimes they're tuning in to get specific

798
00:47:46.280 --> 00:47:50.920
subject matter expertise from the guest. Oftentimes it's about becoming

799
00:47:50.960 --> 00:47:54.480
a better leader themselves, or to becoming a better business leader.

800
00:47:54.880 --> 00:47:58.880
What would you like to leave them with today.

801
00:47:58.719 --> 00:48:06.199
Think long time, embrace stress up to an optimal point,

802
00:48:07.599 --> 00:48:10.320
and enjoy the ride.

803
00:48:11.239 --> 00:48:14.119
Fantastic way to finish, Sebastian. I'm delighted to know you

804
00:48:14.159 --> 00:48:17.920
and thank you for making yourself even more conscientious to

805
00:48:17.960 --> 00:48:19.760
get this book out into the world and then getting

806
00:48:19.840 --> 00:48:21.760
out and about and having conversations with people like me

807
00:48:22.159 --> 00:48:24.119
so we know about it. It's a delight to know you.

808
00:48:24.679 --> 00:48:26.480
Thank you, Lise. This was a lot of fun.

809
00:48:27.440 --> 00:48:29.079
Listeners and viewers. You are going to want to learn

810
00:48:29.079 --> 00:48:31.159
more about Sebastian Page, the work that he does at

811
00:48:31.199 --> 00:48:34.440
turo Price, his various articles on finance or leadership, and

812
00:48:34.519 --> 00:48:37.239
his books, including the latest one, The Psychology of Leadership.

813
00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:41.679
You can start by visiting his website Psychologyoleadership dot net.

814
00:48:41.960 --> 00:48:45.000
He is also on LinkedIn. Last week, we were on

815
00:48:45.039 --> 00:48:48.239
the area with Christopher and Christopher Wong, Michael Sent and

816
00:48:48.320 --> 00:48:51.280
Jennifer Tosti Charus talking about their new book The Meaning

817
00:48:51.320 --> 00:48:55.159
and Purpose of Work and interdis Disciplinary Framework for considering

818
00:48:55.199 --> 00:48:58.440
what Work is for We three researchers got to it

819
00:48:58.599 --> 00:49:01.119
to two deeply on the meaning of work, including one

820
00:49:01.159 --> 00:49:03.800
model which puts forth most of us relate to a

821
00:49:03.920 --> 00:49:06.119
job as our work as either a job, a career,

822
00:49:06.199 --> 00:49:09.760
or a calling, each with pros and cons. If you're

823
00:49:09.760 --> 00:49:12.400
interested in meaning, this is one you don't want to miss.

824
00:49:12.599 --> 00:49:14.639
Next week, we'll be on the air with Brian Cunningham,

825
00:49:14.800 --> 00:49:17.199
who began his career as a parking lot attendant and

826
00:49:17.280 --> 00:49:20.440
rose to CEO, talking about his work in book Leadership

827
00:49:20.480 --> 00:49:23.320
The Universal Principles, which at its core begins with your

828
00:49:23.360 --> 00:49:26.639
awareness and its relationship to what he calls your awareness

829
00:49:26.719 --> 00:49:30.199
quotient as a foundation for your leadership journey. We'll go

830
00:49:30.239 --> 00:49:32.760
on to discuss how to apply this projectal understanding to

831
00:49:32.800 --> 00:49:35.719
your journey through the developmental progression of your service as

832
00:49:35.719 --> 00:49:38.000
a leader. See you then, remember that work is one

833
00:49:38.079 --> 00:49:40.519
of the best adventures and means of realizing our potential

834
00:49:40.559 --> 00:49:42.880
and making the impact with crave and can give us

835
00:49:42.920 --> 00:49:44.679
the opportunity to do business in a way that betters

836
00:49:44.719 --> 00:49:46.719
the world. So let's work on Purpose.

837
00:49:50.000 --> 00:49:52.679
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to

838
00:49:52.679 --> 00:49:56.360
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes,

839
00:49:56.480 --> 00:49:59.719
each week on W four CY. Together we'll create a

840
00:49:59.760 --> 00:50:04.440
world where business operates conscientiously, leadership inspires and passion performance,

841
00:50:04.559 --> 00:50:07.280
and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning

842
00:50:07.320 --> 00:50:11.159
and purpose they crave. See you there, Let's work on Purpose.