The Hidden Costs of Forced Office Returns: Why Productivity and Well-Being Are Suffering

0:00 The topics and opinions express in the following show are solely those of the hosts and their guests, and not those of W FOURCY Radio. It's employees are affiliates. We make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show programs, services, or products mentioned on air or on our web. No liability explicitor implies shall be extended to W FOURCY Radio or its employees are affiliates. Any questions or comments should be directed to those show hosts. Thank you for choosing W FOURCY Radio. What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their highest potential. Business can be such a force for good in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we all want working on Purpose. Now here's your host, doctor Elise Cortes.

1:04 Welcome back to your Working on Breakfast program, which has been brought to you with passionate and pride since February of twenty fifteen. Thanks for tuning and again this week. Great to have you. I'm your host, Doctor Earlies Cortes, and if we've not met before, I'm an organizational psychologist, management consultant, logo therapist, a speaker and author. My team and I at Gusto Now help companies to enliven and fortify their operations by building a dynamic, high performance culture and inspirational leadership activated by meaning and purpose. Did you know that inspired employees outperform their satisfied peers by factor of two point twenty five two one. In other words, inspiration is good for the bottom line. You'll learn more about us now. We can work together at gustodashnow dot com or my personal site of these Couretes dot com. Before we get into today's program, I'm thrilled to announce that registration is open for a fabulous to in conference for women for which I'll serve as the MC. It's called Thrive in twenty five and a jam packed few days in Chicago June twenty fifth to the twenty eight, twenty twenty five designed to develop women as whole selves, from bolstering your mindset to your financial acumen, to leadership, to incorporating nature and art into your life, to your ways of consciousness, and much more. You can visit thrive in twenty five for information and to register. Use my promo code of Gusto all caps to gain access to different books and programs. I'll be giving registrants as well.

2:15 See you there today. With us is Monica Mitchell, who has built a thirty year career at AT and T, where she moved seven times. Today she leads an organization of one hundred and twenty employees that manages a thirty billion dollars software development portfolio. She also leads the Agile, CYOE and Change leadership team that is passionate about employee development and mentoring and making real transformation happen. We'll be talking about how the workforce has changed in the last few years and how we can design a workplace that meets the needs and wants of today and tomorrow's workforce. To jo to today from Dallas, Monica, Welcome to Working on Purpose. Thank you, I'm glad to be here. It's fun, you know soon to d that too. I was like, she's hopelessly wickets smart. I know we could have a very intelligent conversation when you totally you're working on a PhD. My I totally have to talk to her.

3:02 So let's start there. Remind me what you're studying in your PhD? And where working on? A Doctor of Business Administration with William Howard Taft University out of Denver, Okay. And why do we do this? You know there, you've got a family, You've got a big career. I mean, why did this is? What? You know we did call this crazy making manica? Yeah, it really is. Yeah. No. I took a job a few years back with AT and T leading something we called flex Force and tended to have hundreds of our college new hires or people three to ten years in the company, and they wanted mentorship and guidance on their career. And I learned that that was one of my favorite jobs and that teaching them what I had learned over twenty to thirty years was very for filling. And I started looking at the breadth and depth of my career and all the opportunities that this great company had given me. And you know, I've done landline, wireless video, participated in the iPad, the iPhone, these industry changing things and when you go to business schools, the Harvard Business Cases and all of those at and T is in every textbook, and I thought, I have lived this, and who better to teach rising business students

4:38 than somebody who was there. But I didn't have the credential to break into teaching. So sitting at home during the pandemic, why not get online degree so that I can go and share all of this wealth of experience with young people who are really wanting to know brilliant. I love that. And I know we talked about your dissertation, but remind me what you want to research or are researching. I'm researching the impact of return to office on really employees, and that can be anything from financial to what they need to make it worth it to them to come back to the office and put all that effort in.

5:23 And you know there are a number of things they need besides just financial economic benefits, which I think we're going to talk about a little bit today. Yeah, for sure, I love that. That's right, exactly right, Okay. I mean I loved my pursuing on my PhD, and I love teaching as well, so you know I'm already already in sync with you. Okay, So one of the things I thought was interesting about in an article that I read was it was talking about, of course, you know, they've been going through through the pandemic and coming to understand it and so doing we had been through a car crash together. We've survived a car crash. It was so there's so many things about that. So I want this first part of our conversation to stitch kind of you know, we knew humans and where we've come from the last few years. So one of the things I've noticed is that it's very hard now today to get people to come out for any kind of events. I don't care if you're offering them food, drink, it's free.

6:15 It's just people. Prying people out of their homes has been hard. What have you noticed around just the socialization aspect since the pandemic. You know, when we all got sent home, it was hard. As a manager. I had to plan virtual happy hours and lunches because my people felt so disconnected and trapped in their homes and they didn't know how to act. And we were doing that once twice a week just to help them adjust. Well, over time, they did adjust and we went to once a month and then they didn't need it at all, right, And then we asked them to come back, and they're like, I could get sick if I come back. And we finally get them back and they're telling us they're physically and emotionally uncomfortable. Yeah, it's not only the car crash of the pandemic. There's a car crash to coming back and what's causing that.

7:19 Yeah, and I want to definitely cover that when we get into the second part of this conversation. One of the things that I'm also present to is and I noticed it too. I have been working from home for years in might for my business. But what people began to notice is how much time they had spent in that commute. And I remember a conversation Monica when there was a discussion or at least some articles being floated about, is should could people actually consider their commute time as part of their workday because they recognized how much and up to ninety minutes two hours a day in commute time. Now that could be repurposed if you're actually not going to the office. And in fact, many people did work extra hours because they can get out of bed go straight to their computer.

8:03 As we asked them to come back. We are seeing some drops in productivity because they're back on the road. Interesting. That's very interesting. You know. One of the other things that I was present to and I wrote about it in my first book Purpose Ignited It Behind Me, which came out of November in twenty twenty, is I really also discovered in my research that during the pandemic, when people had all that quote down time, or at least alone time, it took stock of their lives and they thought about what they really wanted, and a lot of people found their overall lives and their work lives less than what they wanted. They didn't want to go back to the streaming boss. They didn't want to go back to work that maybe wasn't just fulfilling or interesting. So already we had this notion of people saying, huh, you know, I think I'm going to go ahead and leave this industry now. And so curious, what kind of research have you come across in terms of how people have reevaluated their lives and their work.

8:56 I think they not only reevaluated their lives and their works. I think to some degree, employers brought this on themselves, right, we sold building saved money, even boasted that we didn't see ever going back to the way things were. We got an increase in productivity because people were spending all that drive time working, and we weren't counting on the lack of collaboration and innovation that may come with that because we didn't see that at first. We just saw the productivity that we were getting and the money that we were saving by not paying electric bills and getting rid of buildings and making those statements to employees. They believed us, We're never going back, and so some of them said, I could live further away from the office and save money on my mortgage. They did. Some of them moved to another state to take care of an aging parent or to be near grandchildren because they believed us.

10:05 Now we ask them to come back. That's a major life decision, particularly if the company doesn't want to fund it, right, And so, Yeah, in addition to anything just about the cost of living or the cost of gas, or the time you spend on the road. People who made those adjustments to take care of real life issues, it's a real inconvenience to them. Yeah. I had a great conversation a couple of weeks ago. I think I told you about it with my Nam Maranas, who wrote a book called The Flexibility Paradigm. She has some incredible research in there about flexibility and hybrid and all sorts of things. And one of the things that she said is that really struck me is that, you know, when we don't know, kind of make work more accessible for people, what we're actually really doing at the end of the day is we're limiting their potential. And that really got me, you know, as somebody who's help for you know, to be able to unleash people to their passion and their purpose and create a destination workplace. So just what you're saying is kind of speaking to that, and I think it's another sort of surrounded sound point on the matter.

11:14 Exactly. There is a researcher out of Stanford who did some work showing that we hired more disabled people during the pandemic telework and that return to office may in fact disadvantage them because they can't come in. Yeah, I've also seen some research on that too, and that also came up in one's book as well. And then the other thing that I that I think is really interesting in terms of you know, right now we're just sort of presencing the new kind of the new workforce, the new human that emerged from this the pandemic. We went through other changes in the workplace. But the other phenomenon that I'm seeing that I'm finding really really interested in, which having lived abroad myself in my twenties, is so many people are moving to other countries altogether. I personally know for people alone who have moved to Portugal. So this this is so interesting. And then I met a gentleman who founded an organization here in Dallas called Work Exploring.

12:16 Now what they do is they specialize in helping support companies who offer remote work to other people around the globe as a part of their draw for work, as a perk for the work. You know, I'm stationed in Greece. You know, my company supports that kind of thing or whatever it is. So I'm interested in your perspective whatever you've seen on the mobility that that's emerged after the pandemic. There is great talent in some other countries. There's also been some research on could we use remote work to help underdeveloped areas bring up their economic value by letting some of these jobs move into places that we could put some infrastructure and bring up really the value of their economies by letting them have this higher paying work.

13:08 I think there's a lot of global advantage to allowing some of us to move there and help bring some of those economies kind of into the twenty first century, if you will, and a lot of value to it if we would explore it. You know. Of course, you know that seems to my soul because I'm a conscious capitalist and really I believe in the power of business to lift the world. I believe in that. So that is a beautiful point for me. And then the other side of that occurs to me is that by having someone on in your workforce that's in these different countries, maybe you learn something more about you will and something more about those cultures, and maybe that's another way for you to develop a greater customer base there, or improve the customer base that you already have there. So and of course, as somebody who believes in the power of learning from other cultures, that's where my company is called Gusto now because it means the same thing in the English, Spanish and Portuguese exuberance, excitement, zeal, which is what I'm trying to help organizations impart into their culture. So that is a very very interesting idea to me that I know, I want to explore more.

14:16 If you learn more about that, I want to know. It just means we have to have lunch. That's all, Monica. Okay, well, let's grab our first break. I'm your host, Doctor Lee's Cortes. We've been on the air with Monica Mitchell, who leads an organization of one hundred and twenty employees that manages at AT and T, that manages a three billion dollar software development portfolio. We've been talking about how it is that she got into the space of really trying to understand the impact return to office and her interest in seeing how we can create the workforce of the future. Will be right back.

15:04 Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite a lease to speak to your organization, please visit her at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Elise alisee at elisecortes dot com. Now back to working on purpose.

15:56 Thanks for staning with us. Are welcome back to working on purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes, as I am dedicated to hopen the create a world where people realize the potential at work, are led by inspirational leaders that help them find and contribute their greatness, and we do business that betters the world. I continue to research and write my own books, so my last one came out in twenty twenty three. It's called a Great Revitalization. How activating meaning and purpose can radically enliven your business. And I wanted to help leaders understand that today's workforce what is it they want to need? Much like what we're having in this conversation, and then I offer twenty two best prejudices to equip them to provide that in their leadership and their culture. You can find my books on Amazon or check them out on my website at least core test dot com if you are just now joining us. My guest is Monica Mitchell, who, in addition to leading her software development team one hundred and twenty people at AT and T, also leads the Agile Centers of Excellence and Change Leadership. It was passionate about team employee development and mentoring and making real transformation happen. Sounds good to me. So one of the reasons I totally wanted to have you on that program, you might recall, is when you just sort of mentioned, matter of factly that part of what had happened during the pandemic is that our brains had been rewired. Let's talk about that.

17:04 That's pretty fascinating. Absolutely, before we went home for the pandemic, we were used to the open office concept, noise. I had people lined up outside my door to ask questions. I was used to the interruptions. I maybe had to bring my laptop home for focused work like writing appraisals or whatever because I needed alone time. But I was used to that interaction and noise and chaos at work. I expected it, I even maybe thrived on it. I came home in March of twenty twenty and like my employees, I felt a little lost alone. It was quiet. I was trapped in the four walls of my house, and as I mentioned earlier, we sat up the virtual lunches and happy hours so that we could all feel some connection. And over time I adjusted to the quiet and the piece and that I could focus and get a lot of work done a lot faster. And then when we started return to office, it was only one or two days a week, and so I would go in and I enjoyed the social but I would leave all of the focus work for the days I wasn't going in, and so that was okay. But I would notice that if I was working at home and some of my employees were in the office, I would be like, can't you

18:35 go find a quiet room? All those people walking behind you, talking behind you is distracting me. You know, as you mentioned, I have the Agile Center of Excellence. They coach and teach agility. Their students would complain when they were doing a virtual class if people were walking behind them or making noise because it was distracting, and so we had to tell them on the days you're teaching a home it's bothering your students. And the question was, why does this bother us? It didn't bother us before, and so I started reading research and looking into it. What is it that's going on? And there is some research that all that quiet and the sudden change of the pandemic literally our brains are able to adapt, and they did very well. They love the quiet, and going back is now giving us that same car crash pain and need to adjust, and people are resisting it the same way we resisted coming home because it's emotionally disturbing. You know.

19:47 It's one of the many things I love. The reasons I keep hosting this podcast after ten years because I always learned something significant from each of my guests, and what you've helped me with that as well, Monica, because I just assumed that I had just become or of an introvert during the pandemic. So that's personality, not brain function, and I can completely see that I do. I'm very spooked by noises. Somebody slams that the cupboard in the locker room of my gym, I jump out of my out of my chair. So now we're starting to see in some of those significant distractions are disrupting focus and ampering productivity. And what I find really fascinating is, you know, during the pendemic, there was this big focus on well being, and now it's like, oh, I don't think we're really talking about that right now. If we cared about well being, I think there would be a different approach to how people are coming back to the office exactly.

20:41 And really, our offices are designed for nineteen ninety nine two thousand and the chaos that we were used to. We don't have enough noise dampening devices. We don't have enough focus rooms or places you can do a private chat or deep thought, and so you're bringing in people with a changed brain who are more sensitive to it. I've had employees tell me that their ADHD got worse over the pandemic, which may actually be a side effect of COVID, you know. And then they have this brain change where they got used to the quiet, and they're saying, I can't focus, I'm having trouble getting my work done and there's no quiet place to sit. That's going to have a huge impact on productivity and your overall well being because then they begin to think, is my job at risk if I can't get it done?

21:38 Yeah, for sure, you're reminding me. You know, I remember when I moved from I had a corner office for a job that I was working at in Elite nineteen nineties, and then I came in as a consultant to T Mobile at that time to help them really develop their recruiting department. We were in a big bullpen kind of environment, which was I just hated it because I would sneeze and somebody whom well on the other end of the room would say, bless you, and I felt so invaded. My privacy felt so invaded. I did get used to it, but it just really you're reminding me of this. And what I think is interesting too, is I noticed in one of the articles that you shared with me, the research from the University of California at Irvine found that employees and pubicles received twenty nine percent more interruptions than those in private offices, leading to the high rates of exhaustion, et cetera. And I think it's just if you are losing I know, I read one that said you could lose three to five hours of productive time every day due to people dropping in or unwanted questions or people just board just need to connect kind of thing. That's a lot of.

22:42 Time, it is, and then you add to the time in traffic, how much time are you losing that you previously spent just focusing. Yeah. I liked also this idea here, you know, if those organizations that have managed to really embrace flexible and hybrid sort of options, I like the idea that you know that that there's evidence that allows people to do their best work in the office and that's when of the most effective, and to be able to focus at home. So then the idea that allowing them the employee, the employees to do their focused work, their individual walk at home, like you've been saying, where they have control of their environment and minimize their distructions. But then the office becomes a hub of collaboration and nuanced conversations, mentoring, on the job training, socializing. That's a really nice mix, it.

23:32 Is and I think necessary. Our chief technology officer you know, recently said there are going to be days when your work is so focused you need to stay home most of the time. We want you in the office collaborating, mentoring, having purposeful meetings, but we understand there are going to be days life happens you need to be at home because there's a repairment coming or given you and assignment that's really difficult, and I need you to focus on it. And you know, I think the individual supervisors have to have the authority to make that adjustment so that the real work can be done in the right way.

24:15 Yeah. One of the other articles that I came across that I thought was really really interesting, and I'm pretty sure that you saw it really be ensured it with me, but I thought it was interesting. There was somebody named Thomas Carmichael, professor and chair of the Neurology Department at UCLA David Geffen's School of Medicine. He mentioned in an article our brains are like flatbyt biceps and suggests that we should make ourselves work from the office more often to strengthen those flatby biceps. And then, of course there's some counter to that, so I'd be interested in maybe you're sort of your counter perspective on putting the owners fully on the employee to deal with that adaptation.

24:58 I don't think we should the onus fully on the employee. I think we have to recognize that a we have less office space than we did and if we want a full return to office, we may have to increase our footprint so that there's enough space. And b that the offices we have were designed for people who were emotionally wired differently and there was an impact to the pandemic that we can't erase. Right, So we need to design workspaces that allow the people who are coming back with the limitations and changes that have happened to them to function. And if they need more private spaces, more places where they can focus, sound dampening surfaces and partitions, if that's what they need to be able to both collaborate and focus, then the onus is on the company to provide that good work environment that allows the employee to be productive and successful.

26:10 Mm hmm. I think that's really really interesting. And and then we get into you know, this notion of return on experience and for the for the time and the effort that it that it takes to come into the office. You know, seeing more and more discussion around well, how do we provide a return on the experience for that? And so can you talk a little bit about you know, you say you do something to accommodate the employee, but when we do ask them to come into the office, you know, what can we do for them to encourage and reward that. You know, I think one of the reasons that some of the hybrid arrangements didn't seem successful is there was no structure yeap what people came in whatever day they wanted and none of their team members are there, and so they would they would say, I'm coming in to sit on a teams or a zoom by myself, just like I did at home. What was the purpose? I think you have to design both the workspace and the structure of the day so that people are with the people they need to collaborate with, and you've structured the meetings and the exercises in a way that they feel like they're getting something out of it. That means structured mentoring, giving people work buddies, things, meaningful experiences.

27:32 Yeah. My nam Morolani's talked about that too. So she's she's really putting forth and she's got a whole you know, five step process that she helps companies go through to embrace a flexibility culture. The part of it is it's it's it's structures, it's strategy and structure, she says. You know, so you've got a strategy for flexibility why are you doing this? I was supporting your business objectives, et cetera. And then the actual strategy to carry it out, which was and hold up that structure is what we talked about a couple of weeks ago. I really it was incredible to discover her work. I had another question. I want to ask you on that just a second. Yeah, So when it comes to when it comes to how people are interacting in this new environment, one of the things that I'm trying to put forth is why aren't we embracing more of the possibility here. I know it's so much easier to think you can go back, let's just go back to the way things work because we know that, But there's such an opportunity here to you know, enlarge ourselves and how we think about these things, how we approach these things and do more, being more and therefore have more and when we work to go beyond you know, just what we knew from the past, any research ideas that you've seen about what it's taking to kind of pull more leaders up into this new or higher thinking realm.

28:55 Well, I think first we didn't know the backlash went are going to get because we didn't understand that people's brains were rewired, and that it was really going to be an emotional event. Right now that we're seeing that, I think the researchers are coming forward with the information that managers need to realize they've got to do things differently. But this is just just now hitting the research journals and management journals that people can read to realize we've got to do it different There's actually a reason you're getting this reaction, and here's how you need to react to it. We may take another year and a half to actually react to that, because that's typically how it works.

29:46 Yeah, that's you know. The reason I'm an organizational psychologist, Monk, is because I believe in the wonder power and nobility of work, and I believe it in a way that helps us realize our potential if we do it well, and we can do business that better the world. So I'm dedicated to being part of, you know, the cadre of people that are working together to usher in a world of work that works for everybody. I just don't want to wait for a year and a half, monthing. I really know, you know, And I read the headlines like Amazon doesn't have enough desks for the people coming back, right, and you wonder it's a math exercise. Right it is?

30:26 Yeah? How hard is that? I don't know? Yeah, yeah. So so I'm just very very happy that I found you and your research. A PERSONA did more about that. We'll stay in touch, but let's let's grab our last break here, one more segment that I want to talk about how we can architect today and tomorrow's workplace. We've been in the air with Monica Mitchell, who leads an organization of one hundred and twenty employees that manages a three hundred three billion dollars software development portfolio, among many of the things. I am ELISEE. Cortez, and we've been talking just recently about how our brains have been required during the pandemic. Out of the right, we're going to talk about the future.

31:07 Be right back. Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired leadership and meaning imfused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to a lease ALISEE at eliscortes dot com. Now back to working on purpose.

32:15 Thanks for Jane with us, and welcome back to working on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor at Least Cortes. I mentioned in the last break that my latest book came out in twenty twenty three, The Great Vitalization. What he did for you is I created a free three page organizational assessment. You can learn the extent to which your company's leadership and culture meets the standards of today's discerning workforce. You can find it on my website gustodashnow dot com if you are just joining us. My guest is Monica Mitchell, who, in addition to leading her software development team of one entred and twenty at AT and T, also leads the Agile Center of Excellence. Change leadership is passionate about team employee development and mentoring and making real transformation happen. So for this last segment here, I wanted to get your perspective, your thoughts, your research, what you've seen on how we can architect the workforce, the work place for today's and tomorrows employees. You had mentioned in one of our exchanges that we for us to be able to create that this vision of destination workplaces and such, we actually have to create an architect something very different. So let's talk about that. Let me just let you respond to that, and then I have a few pepperwine questions.

33:20 Sure, when I was working on my bachelor's degree, which is in industrial engineering, I studied ergonomics, how to design a workplace that was centered around the body and safety and health. Flash forward thirty years. We not only need a workplace that thinks about the physical and ergonomics, we now have research that shows the pandemic altered our brains and how we emotion react and behave, and the workplace now has to take that into account. If we want people to be productive and perform at their highest potential, we need activity based spaces where if they need to collaborate, there's room for them to do that. They need to focus.

34:21 There needs to be a place for them to do that. We had one of our leaders in our Israel division note that the US based spaces are not designed the same way as their development center and that when their folks visit US, they can't concentrate because we're noisy and there's no noise reduction, the lighting isn't the same, and that their centers are really designed around software developers and the space that they need and ours aren't. And they're like, why would you ever do that? And probably because no one here thought about it when we were used to the chaos and noise. Well, things have changed, so we need to go and look at the physical design of the spaces in light of the changes that have happened in the employee's brains and emotions.

35:17 One of the things I've come to in my own research and my experience of consulting with companies as well as what I like to say, that we've evolved quite a bit through the pandemic. You know, it was a you know, shared global heart attack. We all responded to it, and it called a lot in US. And I think we have grown in a lot of ways. And I firmly believe that we have also evolved in our consciousness, our requirements for civility and emotional intelligence in our relationships and certainly at work, and it requires, you know, more astute leadership all the way around. And so I liked how you had actually said in one of our exchanges that in the nineties we did architect workplaces for the physical, accommodation for health, etc. And now accommodating creating a work environment that really accommodates those mental emotional needs is a whole different animal.

36:11 Definitely, Particularly we know that COVID long COVID has created an ADHD like reaction in people who didn't have it before, people who do have ADHD have reported that it's worse, and then even folks without that are telling you, I'm just more sensitive to noise. So when you add all that up, we've got way more people bothered by noise and distraction than we did five years ago. But we don't have more quiet spaces, more places to focus, more square footage designated to help them do that. And we have to address that if we want to continue to be productive and to have employees who want to be there.

37:13 Now, if we play out the ramifications feeling those experiences that you just described well, I have to imagine, I don't know what you've seen in the research, that we have to see increased conflicts in the workplace, We have to see probably increased health costs as we deal with these things that are emerging. Any research on these fronts. I don't know that I've seen research on it, but hannecdotally, I've seen people fighting over chairs and desks and the few quiet rooms that are available, people turning in complaints.

37:53 I hold skip levels with my team and some of the most frequent comments are, I can't find a place to take a private call. Well, why why does the guy next to me have a lunch that smells? You know, Things that that they didn't complain about before. Yeah, they bring up every single meeting now, and so the ramifications are that they're going to keep complaining. Some of them may quit just an unwillingness to deal right now. Mm hmmm. You know I want to This is where I like to always, you know, give a shout out and honor all of the managers and leaders out there.

38:39 You know, it's this is hard work these days, and it's getting harder and harder to be an effective manager and effective leader, and so you know it takes real skill, It takes your own self care to handle this stuff, and you know, patients, emotional intelligence, all this stuff. So I just wanted to situate that that must be a little bit trying at times. You know it is, but we do have some great leaders. We have people who are trying to make it better, and I think they will prevail. I certainly plan to make it better for my people any way I can, and I know my boss does. And that's what's important is that we are trying, We are reading the research and trying in any way that we can to overcome these things that we didn't realize had happened.

39:34 That's such an important conversation. You know. The other thing I want a presence, which we've talked about many times in this podcast, is you know, those individuals, those under and twenty individuals that that are on your team, they all go home to people and whatever their experiences, of course has been impacted by what they experienced during the day. And so when you think about just the sheer ripple effect that we have as leaders in people's lives and those families and then into their communities, I mean, it's it's a really big deal. And get this right and well is important. It really is either driving home. We don't want them to have it wrect because they're frustrated, right, and then it does multiply to their families, which then multiplies to wherever they go the next way. It's huge.

40:17 Yeah, yeah, So I really appreciate how thoughtful you're being about this and how you're contributing to advance the conversation on this. I'm here and of course, and you know, back at your own company, I wanted to spend a little bit of time here, Monica. You shared an article with me that I thought was really powerful, and it has four key factors to shaping team workplaces. But I think it might be useful as we talk about how can we actually create that, if not today, then future workplace that really works more for people. I thought it was really smart that it takes into consideration, you know Carl Jume's four areas, you know that speak to the fuller human being, if you would so, I'm not sure how you want to go about that, but I would love for us to hit each of those four core factors and what they're trying to address.

41:02 The way I looked at it and I thought it was really well done to look at activities, emotions, how do people collaborate, what is the purpose of them being together, and how do you pull all that together? And it was very intentional the way that they set that up. Did you want to name each of them? Yeah, so let's just go through each one of them. I've got some notes that I took from that. And so the first area is knowing the individual behavioral self. That's the thinking element of valuing's dynamic here. So thinking about and considering the mental and intellectual activity involved for subjective consciousness. So if you could speak a little bit about you, how could a workplace or work policies support that factor.

41:57 So if you think about the comment that our manager in Israel made about their workplaces being designed for software engineers, that might be completely different than someone working in media productions needs, right, because they need the quiet space to focus. Media productions needs lights and sounds and the ability to collaborate and pull in video feeds and things like that. And that's completely different than what the guy in finance needs. He needs the great big computer screen so he can make his Excel spreadsheet bigger. I think you have to look at what are they going to do. What are the needs related probably to the personality of the person who would want that job, as well as what it takes to do that job and the physical structure of the desk that would help them do it.

43:02 Okay, very very interesting. When we get to a certain point, I realized, I want to share a story. But let's get to this next one. The number the second one is becoming aware of the cognitive needs of the team. We talked a little bit about that, but that, but it also speaks to there's a space and that where it's really speaking to the feeling element, the conscious subjective experience of emotion. And of course that's my jam big time. I mean, I'm for the whole total person, but so much of what I'm doing today it's so interesting, Monica. When I started working in this space, the skills that I was helping develop were considered soft skills, and now they're considered essential skills. And we're seeing more and more of the need for the human element in the workplace to be honored. So how how how might we address and the workplace and the policies to be able to suit and better support the emotional realm.

43:56 You know, we find like with with gen Z. They wanted to come to the office, but to be mentored, not be in the office, right, And we found folks my age when it came to return to office, didn't want to come back just to sit there. I wanted to have a purpose to be there, which probably was mentoring the gen Z person. Because if it was just to come back and sit on a zoom, that didn't seem to make sense to me. And so I think when we think about that emotional aspect, people need a reason for why they're doing it, and we need to structure the day to meet that emotional need for connection and to give them structure that they see what role they play and why what they're doing ties into the greater goal of the company and the success so that they feel valued needed.

45:01 Yeah, this is totally my damn right here. So the story I wanted to tell you really quick, and I want to be sure and cover the other two before we sign off. You'll be shocked, you know, to know that. On the way to my storytelling class, I stopped into the to the bar and had had something to drink and eat. The two jo'nal were sitting next to me, and I overheard them talking and they were talking about having to come back to the office, and one of them said, well, we all have to come back to the office because the CEO said I need people around me in order to be effective. So where we're going to all wady back? And of course I piped up like, hey, Jason, can I talk to you? You don't have a podcast and we're going to be talking about this sort of thing. And they were like so intrigued to know that this was being discussed like this, and one the other guy said, you know, we have a meeting and we were like four miles from downtown, and he said, it's all the way downtown. Why would it come all the way to downtown fine parking to come to a half an hour meeting that I can join on zoo. So it's been so interesting. I think it's important that people, listeners and viewers are aware of whatever style you prefer that you opt in to, that you're not can policy choices and decisions on you have all employees for your preferences, right, this is so important.

46:07 Or if you are, give them a reason why they should do it. Yeah, yeah, So okay. In a third area here, the team's trust belief and trust is the foundation of its ability to contribute to the betterment of its purpose. You kind of address that, but this gets to the intuitive aspects that Carl you and talked about. So if you can speak a little bit to that factor. I think our teams need to trust that we have their best interests at heart, we have their backs, that we're not asking for things we don't need, and that we will take their needs into account. And so when you read about Amazon not having enough desks, did that take their needs into account in any way?

47:04 Yeah. I don't know if you've heard about this, but Jamie Diamond, the CEO of Chase, actually said I don't care that many of the employees have signed a letter that says we don't want to come back full time to goop. He says, I don't care about that. That's a really loud statement, man. That says a lot right there. Yeah, he apparently cursed and they called him out for that. He did you see that. He's since come back and apologized for cursing and walked his statement back. A little bit. He admitted some part of his workforce is allowed to be remote because their job doesn't face the customer and so he said he's not against all work from home, that it should be role based. So he is walking it back a little bit.

47:50 Okay, that's good to know. That's good to I'm really glad you brought that up. Let's get the last one just to fill it out. You've already talked about it before. But the last factor that was discussed here is the sensory environment. Of course, that's the physical the sensory physical feeling and perception, which you've alreay addressed with the Israeli team and such. But if you wanted to say anything more about that, well, I. Think it is partly designing for the type of job they're doing. It's also a recognition, particularly for you know, people like ADHD and just the brain change we all went through that if we're more sensitive to noise or lighting or things than we were five years ago, we need to make some adjustments in the physical space to help employees adjust to that or they will continue to fight.

48:40 Yeah, yeah, for sure. Okay, and say thirty seconds, we've already come read of the show. What would you like to leave our listeners with that? We can make this transition, but it requires compassion and collaboration and working together instead of against each. Other as a beautiful way of finish Monica, I can get right behind that. I really appreciate meeting you and you coming on to working on purpose. Thanks for joining us today, Thanks for having me very welcome. Listeners and viewers are going to want to connect with Monica and the best way to do that is on LinkedIn. Her profile name is Monica B. Like the letter B Mitchell. Monica B Mitchell with two l's. At the end last week, if you missed the Lin Show, you can always catch a via recorded podcast. We were on air with Russell Wallerker, an international speaker and the host producer of the Relationships at Work podcast, The Guy into building workplace connections and avoiding leadership blind spots. We talked about why definitions of key terms like leadership and management are so important for each company to do for themselves, and he gave us seven roadblocks leaders unwittingly put in front of themselves that get in the way of their own effectiveness. Next week will be on there with Ross Blankenshik talking about his book Everyday Leadership, which builds nicely on Russell's work to develop your own leadership mindset, distinguishing what makes leaders effective, on how to think systematically about organizations and teams. See it and remember work is one of the best adventures and means of realizing our potential and making the impact we create and can give us the opportunity to do

50:11 business in a way that betters the world. So let's work on Purpose. We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes, each week on W four C. Why Together, We'll create a world where business operates conscientiously. Leadership inspires and passion performance and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning and purpose they crave. See you there, Let's work on Purpose.