May 6, 2025

The Future of Work Is Now: Reinventing Work and Leadership for What’s Next

The Future of Work Is Now: Reinventing Work and Leadership for What’s Next
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Work is being radically redefined—where, when, why, and how we work is changing fast. In this eye-opening conversation, futurist Rishad Tobaccowala shares how leaders can stay ahead by rethinking work and embracing transformation. From evolving organizational models to the new “why” behind work, learn what it takes to lead and thrive in the workplace and business of tomorrow.

Working on Purpose is broadcast live Tuesdays at 6PM ET and Music on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Working on Purpose is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).

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WEBVTT

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The topics and opinions express in the following show are

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solely those of the hosts and their guests and not

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those of W FOURCY Radio. It's employees are affiliates. We

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make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show programs, services,

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or products mentioned on air or on our web. No

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Radio or its employees are affiliates. Any questions or comments

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should be directed to those show hosts. Thank you for

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choosing W FOURCY Radio.

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What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the

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answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose

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at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their

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lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization

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that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their

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highest potential. Business can be such a force for good

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in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide

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guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we

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all want working on Purpose. Now here's your host, doctor

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Elise Cortes.

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Welcome back to the Working on a Purpose program, which

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has been brought to you with passion and price since

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February of twenty fifteen. Thanks for tuning in this week.

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Great to have you. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes.

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If we haven't met before and you don't know me,

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I'm an organizational psychologist, management consultant, logo therapist, speaker and author.

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And my team and I Augusta now help companies to

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enliven and fortify their operations by building a dynamic, high

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performance culture and inspirational leadership activated by meaning and purpose

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for today's enlightened in dynamic world. And did you know

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that inspired employees outperform their satisfied peers by a factor

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of two point twenty five to one. In other words,

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inspiration is good for the bottom line. You can learn

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more about us and know we can work together at

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Gusto dshnow dot com and my personal site at Lascortes

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dot com. Today we have with us Rashad Tobakawala, who

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has four decades of global and multi disciplinary experience in

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driving personal, team and business growth. He most recently served

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as the global strategist and Chief Growth Officer at the

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one hundred thousand plus person and marketing and business Transformation

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Publicist Group. He is the host of the What Next

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podcast and publishes a thought letter called The Future Does

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Not Fit Into the Containers of the Past, which is

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read by thirty thousand doar every week. He is the

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author of Restoring the Soul of Business, Staying Human in

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the Age of Data, which helps people think, feel, and

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see differently about how to grow their companies, their teams,

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and themselves to remain relevant in the transformational time, and

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also Rethinking Work, which helps people thrive amidst the seismic

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changes that will occur at work due to a combination

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of changing demographics, new mindsets, the rise of distributed work,

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and the spreaday by eye, which is the focus of

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our conversation today. He Jose is from Chicago, Rishat a

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very hearty welcome to Working on Purpose.

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Thank you very much, thank you for having me on

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your show.

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I'm so glad that you said yes when I reached

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out to you, because I got to read this amazing

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book that you put out. I saw you. I forget

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how I found you on Amazon, but I was, just

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as I told you in our LinkedIn exchange, devoured your book.

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It's just what the world in business needs today. Thank you, Rashad,

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Thank you You're welcome. You're so welcome. Well, you, my

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dear new friend. As a futurist, in forty years of

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your own experience starting and building companies, have come to

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understand what's the need, what's behind the need to rethink

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how we lead and run businesses? And I want to

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talk about just a few. I know we don't have

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time to talk about all them, but just a few

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of their driving forces behind the need for rethinking business

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and leadership.

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Today's let's start there.

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Absolutely well, there are five big forces. The first one

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of societal change, which is aging and declining populations, many

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generations that work with different mindsets. Maybe Loma is believing

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in capitalism, gen Z not. There's obviously the rise of technology,

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of which air happens to be one, which is also

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going to basically change work more than we know it

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and makes knowledge free to a certain extent. It is

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the rise of marketplaces, and those marketplaces could be anything

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from Amazon website services to Etsy to shopify that allows

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people to access markets as well as make themselves available

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to markets. There is the rise of the gig worker,

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the side hustle. In the United States, one out of

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every two people will be a side we'll get a

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ten ninety nine this year, not just a W two

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people who work. And finally, there's the long term impact

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of COVID, which is in some part on where you work,

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but more importantly why you work, and who you work

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for and what you think about work. So those five forces,

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which obviously are interconnected, are the five seismic changes changing work.

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Just a few to deal with.

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You know, I have a lot of empathy for the people,

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the leaders that I work with you have to help support.

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This is a hard time to be a leader. And

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I think your book really beautifully, as I was telling

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one my executive before we got on, really summarizes and

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encapsulates just really everything that's there for for us.

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So let's talk next.

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If we can. You mentioned that they're among these societal shifts,

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of course, which are not going away. I don't. I

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personally find it really kind of amusing that people are

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still saying things like, you know, when we go back

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to the way things were, why would we want to

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go back? Why would we want to be a graduate

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from college and say, you know, second grade back in

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elementary school was really good. I want to go back

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to those times, right. I'm just amazed by that. So

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let's situate next year some of the things that you

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suggest that organizations reimagine that will help us help them

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situate the needs and wants of today's workforce.

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Sure, so there are four. So one of the interesting

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things which I find that people find about my book

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that they like, which hopefully, as you have indicated you

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have liked, is that it's very recent, balanced with facts,

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and then says you know things you want to think about.

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It isn't a screed that says there is a symbol

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bullet answer you and I work too much in the

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real world to believe that there's some silver bullet that

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someone can find. So with that, what I basically sense

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is that there are four things that any business of

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insight should be looking at. The first one really is

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to think about do they need a new type of employee.

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So most companies today have three types of employees. Basically

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a full time employee, a contract employee who basically appears

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to be full time it works for another company really

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and you just hire them. And then there's a freelance employee.

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I believe it's time for another employee, which is a

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fractionalized employee. So what is a fractionalized employee. They're an

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employee of the firm with all the benefits that an

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employee has. That in addition to base compensation if they're eligible,

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they have both either equity or bonuses, and they have

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one hundred percent healthcare, but they only work maybe sixty

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or eighty percent of their time. This person is different

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than the freelance because they have both health care and

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they have benefits, if that makes sense, but different from

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a full time employee than they only work sixty to

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eighty percent. Why is that a good idea? The reason

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it is a good idea is a it offers the

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individual and the talent a lot more options than they

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had before. A lot of people want to spend a

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little less time working because they may need to spend

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that time either looking after kids, aging parents, their own health,

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or following some side passion. It is a good idea

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for the company because eight can attract this type of talent.

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But more importantly, in an AI age, I think most

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companies are going to find that they need about fifteen

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to twenty percent fewer employees to do the same amount

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of work. And this is a fantastic way of actually

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having a fifteen to twenty percent savings without having to

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do any layoffs, without hurting your company, because in effect,

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you turn around you ask everybody do you want to

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work sixty eighty, one hundred percent? Some people will say hundred,

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some will say sixty, some will say eighty. You may

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end up with about eighty percent without having to do

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any layoffs, and in effect you can then move up

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and down based on demand and supply. So that's one

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key thing. Second is how do you machines and human

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beings co exist, which is how do you train? How

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do you rethink your company for an age of AI

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where knowledge is free. A third one is very importantly

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to unbundle the office. So I truly do believe that

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in many many companies, in many many industries, in person

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interaction is important, which is human being connecting together. But

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nobody said that that necessarily was ever done most meaningfully

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in the office. In my career, when we needed to

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do creative brainstorming, we'd go to offsites. But I wanted

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to build relationships, I'd go to bars and restaurants. When

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I wanted to learn, I would go to events. And

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nobody goes around and bangs into people in a water cooler.

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We basically you carry our own water bottels. And there's

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a lot of research that says, unless somebody is twenty

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five meters from me, you're not going to bang into

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anybody in a large company on different floors. So, in effect,

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rethinking the office and rethinking the question not how do

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I get people back into the office, but how do

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I maximize the benefits of in person interaction while allowing

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as much flexibility that I possibly can and also eliminate

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costs of real estate as much as I can. And

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the last one, and this one is particularly fun, is

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I've begun to believe that one of the reasons people

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are not wanting to come back to the office may

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not just be because it is a long commute, it's

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a waste of time and a whole bunch of other things,

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but they don't want to come back to the bosses.

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That's one the key things in my book is what

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I call about the fall of managers and the rise

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of leaders, and managers and bosses tend to be people

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who have zones of control, while leaders have zones of influence.

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Boss is basically what all the people sitting in their

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seats so they can conduct them. A leader is improvisational

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like jazz, and I basically believe those four things. A

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new type of employee figuring out how to basically have

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the machine human coexistence, rethinking in person interactions to maximize

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them with flexibility, and retraining leadership to actually lead versus

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just be a boss are the four things every company

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should be thinking about right away.

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Let me come around a couple of those things.

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One the first thing about this idea of a fractionalized employee,

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I really like that concept for show. I haven't really

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seen much of that as socially novel concept to me,

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And one of the things I like about that is

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it also allows more people in the full population to work,

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giving people more access to the world of work and

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being able to earn an income for themselves, which I

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think is going to reduce the overall lift for us

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to support everybody in the community. And then, of course,

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going back to what you're also just saying there, that

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flexibility piece, you know, offering different ways for people to

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embrace and engage in the world of work versus what

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we're seeing today these forced mandate you turn to office

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the same hours, so that ability to be able to

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recognize that the need for that flexibility. You're going to

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get a much more engaged, motivated, committed person when you

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offer that flexibility.

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Absolutely. I think one of the key things is the

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same companies who basically talk about agility, flexibility at personalization

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show no agility, flexibility or personalization for people coming back

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to the office, which means they're lying. That's all. It's

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completely fake. And that's what I tell leaders, the fact

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that you don't give personalization, agility, or flexibility to your talent,

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and then you go around telling your customers you're an agile,

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flexible and personalized company. How does that work? Please tell you, sir.

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Well, speaking of that, Rasharda, the other thing that I

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also quite enjoyed about your book is the idea of

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really encouraging leaders and companies to embrace gigwork, side hustles

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and passion projects so you can speak to why there's

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a benefit for them to do so.

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So there are three benefits, So let me begin with

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the benefit to the talent. To the talent, the side

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gig its side hustle allows you to basically have your

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cake and eat it too. To a great extent, I

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had managed to attract and retain world class talent who

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might have wanted to have a passion of starting a

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gaming company. So I said, look, you can work here,

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work with us on gaming practice, and start a gaming company.

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That's one. The other is what it also basically does

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is that side hustle or side gig brings skills and

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credibility to our own clients. Look, this person is doing

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this other thing so they get more credible, Which is one,

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they can have their cake and eat it too. And

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the third is they're maximizing their optionality, which is they

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now have two revenue streams versus one revenue stream, which

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also allows them to take a little bit more crap

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at work because they have an outlier or something. Right,

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So it's really good enough for the company. Why is

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it good for the company? It's good for the company.

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One because you're reducing your costs without losing your talent.

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You still have your talent right. Second is, in most cases,

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talent loves you even more because now they get to

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have their kk need it too, so they're more likely

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to be loyal. They're actually likely to work more than

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the percentage that they said they were going to basically do.

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Third is you begin to be a place where people

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who have amazing talent come and work with you because

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they say they can work with you and do what

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they want to do. So your costs are better, you've

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got more better people in your culture, and you can

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attract more talent, So it's a win when and why

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that's very important, especially in the US versus let's say,

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Canada or other places, is it's also the only way

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that people can get healthcare of a particular type, because,

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unfortunately the US, outside of the Affordable Care Act, most

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of your health is directly associated with having a job. Right.

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Yeah.

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So one of the things that I got from one

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of my previous guests that I really have not been

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able to forget, which I want to have you speak

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to next, is what she's put forward is that the

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old way that we worked, where we required people to

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be in the office certain hours, you know, do the

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commune and everything else. What it does, really fundamentally, from

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a humanistic dvantage point, is it reduces people's overall potential,

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their ability to realize more of their potential. It squashes that.

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And I think you do a really amazing job in

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your book of describing just how COVID changed our minds,

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and so can you see some of the ways that

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it did.

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So it did. The biggest thing that it did was

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basically it did four key things to change our mind.

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The first one is what I basically call existential questions.

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And existential questions is during COVID, and most of us

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will still remember, we weren't sure whether we would live okay,

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and we were seeing people who we knew or loved

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ones being either very sick or sometimes passing away. So

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you begin to ask a question, what am I here for?

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What am I doing? How am I using my time? Right?

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Am I doing meaningful stuff? So that was the first

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big thing. That was the thing that I said, what

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really changed the way people think about work, not just

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where they work. That was the first thing. Second is

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while people were doing that, they were beginning to realize

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that since nobody was looking, they could now do these

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other things that also fulfill them. Because all of us

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are multitudes of personalities. We're not like bipolar or skidsphrantic.

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It's just we have multiple personalities or multiple interests and passions,

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and now we could feed all of those because we

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had the time to do that and nobody was monitoring

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and watching and looking, and we said, hey, this is

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much more meaningful. The third is, hey, you know what,

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I'm getting a lot done without somebody telling me what

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to do and having a boss on my head right

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and forth. When time became very important because we didn't

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know how long we would live, we began to realize

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we were wasting a lot of time moving our physical

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body parts to a place to be the front of

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a screen. And usually the technology and the office was

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not as good as the technology at home. It wasn't

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as comfortable, and it was loud and noisy because people

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had removed real estate anyway. So you basically came in

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and said, wait, that going back to twenty nineteen is

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not going back to some Holcin days. It's going back

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to the dark ages.

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Second grade.

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Yeah, it's going back to the dark ages. And my

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whole basic belief is why does anybody want to go

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back to the dark ages?

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I don't know.

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And then the other a couple of other things you

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also included there too, is people began to recognize that

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they were going to reject over work and burnout as

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well as toxic work cultures.

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No thank you, no thank you, And what basically begins

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to happen. Is what I always tell people is many

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companies thought and tried to convince people that they had

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a culture. Many people companies had is they had a cult.

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An adult requires two things. It requires a compound like

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Jones down, and it requires you to drink something all

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the time, like a kool Aid. Now people have left

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the compound because they're at home and they are not

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being given the kool aid. So all of a sudden

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they're opening their mind and saying, oh my god, I

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was so unhappy. That was actually a cult. It was

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a toxic place that some or the other I wasn't thinking.

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You know.

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It's sort of like this very famous sick like sort

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of a speech, which is, you know what is water?

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Which is a fish? When they're in water, it's another fish?

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What is water? Right? And sometimes you have to leave

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to understand exactly where you were.

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Yes, And which is why when you and I go

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into organizations, we can hold up that mirror a little

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bit more easily than they.

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Can see themselves.

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That is exactly right.

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All right, let's grab our first break. I'm your host,

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doctor Lee's Cortes. We've been on the air with Rashad

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Talkbakawala a futurist and seasoned businessman who helps unleash the

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superpowers of each individual talent by helping them see, think,

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and feel differently so they can grow themselves, their team

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and their businesses. We've been talking a bit about some

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of the forces driving the great rethinking. After the break,

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when I get into what work will become, We'll be

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right back.

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Doctor Elise Cortez is a management consultant specializing in meaning

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and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies

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visioneer for a greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose

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inspired leadership and meaning infuse cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance,

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and commitment within the workforce. To learn more, or to

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invite at least to speak to your organization, please visit

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00:19:01.319 --> 00:19:04.519
her at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to

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get your employees working on purpose. This is working on

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Purpose with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today

363
00:19:16.839 --> 00:19:19.599
or to open a conversation with Elise, send an email

364
00:19:19.640 --> 00:19:25.200
to Alise A Lisee at eliscortes dot com. Now back

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00:19:25.240 --> 00:19:26.599
to working on Purpose.

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Thanks for sting with us, and welcome back to working

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on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes, as I too,

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am dedicated to helping create a world where people realize

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their potential at work, are led by inspirational leaders that

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help them find and contribute their greatness, and we do

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business that better is the world. I keep researching and

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writing my own books, and one of my last ones

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came out. It's called The Great Revitalization. How activating meaning

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and purpose can radically in liven your business. And I

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wrote it in some ways to do some of the

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things that Rashad is doing to help leaders understand how

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the world has, what does the workplace want and need

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from them, and then offer twenty two best practices that

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you can start to fold into your culture to help

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create that. You can find my books on Amazon or

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my personal site at least Cortes dot com if you

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are just now joining us. My guest is Rashaw Tobakawala.

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He's the author of Restoring the Soul of Business, Staying

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00:20:17.079 --> 00:20:20.279
Human in the Age of Data, which helps people to think, feel,

385
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and see differently about how to grow their companies, their teams,

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and themselves to remain relevant in transformational time. And the

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book that we're talking about today rethinking work which helps

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people thrive amidst the seismic changes that will occur at

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work due to a combination of changing demographics, new mindsets,

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and the rise of distributed work as well as the

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spreader AI.

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So to kick this.

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Part off here, this segment off for shab this is

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about what work will become. You already situated for us

395
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several of those things, including the fractionalized employees, the machine

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human coexistence, the unbundling of the office. You did that

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already for us, beautiful in the first segment. If we

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can now, if we can start by talking about more

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of what the office can and become. The future of

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00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:03.759
the office, you have at least I think six different

401
00:21:03.799 --> 00:21:06.640
aspects or ideas in your book that really champion what

402
00:21:07.119 --> 00:21:08.480
could look like that's much different.

403
00:21:09.480 --> 00:21:11.839
Yeah, So you know, one of the biggest things is

404
00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:19.839
we should think about the office as being a place

405
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where people can come to a interact with other people

406
00:21:26.279 --> 00:21:29.839
because it's being programmed. So you actually have programming. So

407
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when people come into the office, I always basically say,

408
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what are they going to do here in the office

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that's different than what they do at home? Are they

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going to listen to somebody. Is there going to be

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a training program, Are they going to actually have a

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formal brainstorming? Are they going to go have lunches and

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dinners together? So, you know, the whole idea is rethinking

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about it and says, okay, how do I benefit in

415
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person interaction. The other is, you know, in many cases,

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if for global companies, there may be advanced technology at

417
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the office so that you can better communicate and better

418
00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:05.759
better connect with people in the company all over the world.

419
00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:09.279
If but that is increasingly less and less likely because

420
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technology is getting better at home. But that's you know,

421
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sort of a second one. The third is for training

422
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for education. So the idea really is to rethink it.

423
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But in addition, don't think about where these people come

424
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together just being necessarily the office. It could be an

425
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off site, it could be a hotel. It could even

426
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basically be using you know, university spaces during holidays, so

427
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it's literally during summer moving people into a campus for

428
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two three weeks where there's dormitories and everything else and

429
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people get together. So the idea basically is rethinking what

430
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do you want to do when people come together? And

431
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it is all those things, but no longer necessarily thinking

432
00:22:51.559 --> 00:22:55.079
about it in the current office, or reconfiguring and rethinking

433
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the office, and also doing things like around events. So

434
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for instance, if there's a great show that having things

435
00:23:02.440 --> 00:23:05.000
built around the show and buying people tickets for the show,

436
00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:06.400
it's those kinds of stuff.

437
00:23:06.799 --> 00:23:07.200
Mm hmm.

438
00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:09.960
That is radically different than hey, you know, in fact,

439
00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:12.279
I just saw this on a on a chatboard recently

440
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we shot. Somebody was asking about what are you doing

441
00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:17.240
to re engage people? When ask them to do they're

442
00:23:17.240 --> 00:23:20.720
still talking about parties and pizza and potlocks.

443
00:23:21.559 --> 00:23:24.359
Yeah, And my whole thing is like listen, you know,

444
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in fact, I'm going to put on LinkedIn something that

445
00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:33.119
I found actually somewhere else. But which is what what

446
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do companies think people want? So companies think what people

447
00:23:36.519 --> 00:23:41.559
want is they basically want a big, nice, interesting office space,

448
00:23:42.160 --> 00:23:47.240
they want free food, and they want some technology. Well,

449
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what people actually want is meaningful work, leadership, autonomy, optionality,

450
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good income. None of those are what they're doing when

451
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they're basically my own stuff is you know, if you're

452
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if you're providing people with free food and foodsball, then

453
00:24:04.039 --> 00:24:06.640
why don't you basically go there, go and send them

454
00:24:06.680 --> 00:24:08.960
to Dan and Basto Chuck E cheese, that's better to

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do it.

456
00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:15.200
There completely with you. And this is so listeners and viewers,

457
00:24:15.240 --> 00:24:17.640
you know, we're with you. We're arm in arm on this.

458
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We just want to show you that there's such a

459
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better way than what many people are probably thinking about today.

460
00:24:23.640 --> 00:24:26.599
I definitely want to go into because of course, so

461
00:24:26.680 --> 00:24:29.400
much in my world is also focused on developing managers

462
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and leaders. And I really really like what you have

463
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to say about the fallable managers and the rise of

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new leaders. And you talk about five ways to become

465
00:24:37.359 --> 00:24:41.000
a better manager, and I think that really bears These

466
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are very different sorts of behaviors than people have been

467
00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:47.079
probably taught or exposed to. If you could talk about those.

468
00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:49.960
Yeah, you know, I would say that, you know, some

469
00:24:50.119 --> 00:24:55.519
of the big things, which like I'll sort of and

470
00:24:55.759 --> 00:24:57.279
I will sort of pull it out so I could

471
00:24:57.279 --> 00:25:00.440
give you the entire you know, sort of list without

472
00:25:01.400 --> 00:25:04.759
sort of uh like sort of losing losing the flow.

473
00:25:05.240 --> 00:25:07.759
But the thing that to me is one of the

474
00:25:07.759 --> 00:25:12.400
most important things about it is just by basically thinking

475
00:25:12.440 --> 00:25:13.759
what does a leader do?

476
00:25:13.920 --> 00:25:16.799
How does how does a leader spend their time? Versus

477
00:25:16.799 --> 00:25:19.240
how does a manager spend their time. Does that make

478
00:25:19.279 --> 00:25:23.000
sense absolutely? And so what tends to happen? And not

479
00:25:23.160 --> 00:25:25.799
that leaders don't have to have some sort of management

480
00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:29.599
like jobs or do some management, but a management a

481
00:25:29.640 --> 00:25:40.079
manager spends a lot of their time overseeing, checking in, monitoring, allocating, delegating,

482
00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:44.680
delegating right, while a leader tends to basically be much

483
00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:52.039
more about creating, making, mentoring, guiding, inspiring and so the

484
00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:54.559
five things that I basically sort of mentioned to be

485
00:25:54.599 --> 00:25:58.599
a better manager is one is to basically think about

486
00:25:58.960 --> 00:26:03.400
when you're talking to people abouth, nuance and personalization, understand

487
00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:06.720
the person who is working with you and each one

488
00:26:06.759 --> 00:26:09.000
has sort of a different personality and how do you

489
00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:12.559
deal with them and how do you modify things.

490
00:26:13.359 --> 00:26:17.160
Second, in many cases is get people to raise their

491
00:26:17.160 --> 00:26:20.079
hand when they need your help. Was just constantly checking

492
00:26:20.119 --> 00:26:23.000
in right. You don't have to monitor, you have to

493
00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:26.200
be like a drone, like you know, hovering over somebody.

494
00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:29.000
You can just basically say, hey, look, your is a

495
00:26:29.039 --> 00:26:32.079
bad signal, and when you need me, press the button

496
00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:37.160
right and then I will show up. The third we

497
00:26:37.440 --> 00:26:43.000
underestimate how important communication is, which is continuously keeping people

498
00:26:43.000 --> 00:26:45.640
apprized of what is going on. Because one of the

499
00:26:45.680 --> 00:26:49.440
things I've basically now come to believe is, you know,

500
00:26:49.640 --> 00:26:54.480
very much like insiens, they say, nature abores or vacuum.

501
00:26:55.160 --> 00:26:58.480
When there is a vacuum of information, people make up

502
00:26:58.559 --> 00:27:02.359
whatever they think should be there, and usually they make

503
00:27:02.440 --> 00:27:07.759
up the most worst case scenario and the most scandalous outcome, right,

504
00:27:08.279 --> 00:27:10.400
and so what tends to basically happen. It makes a

505
00:27:10.440 --> 00:27:12.640
little bit of time if you actually tell people this.

506
00:27:13.599 --> 00:27:16.000
The fourth which is the thing I've already mentioned, which

507
00:27:16.039 --> 00:27:19.720
is please invest your time more in creating, building, coaching,

508
00:27:19.839 --> 00:27:24.559
and servicing versus all this monitoring stuff. And finally, something

509
00:27:24.599 --> 00:27:27.839
that is so so important, and this, by the way,

510
00:27:27.880 --> 00:27:32.440
it can be done in any form, is feedback, because

511
00:27:32.480 --> 00:27:36.480
we grow through feedback, both giving and receiving it. But

512
00:27:36.599 --> 00:27:40.200
a lot of companies now have become very reticent about

513
00:27:40.240 --> 00:27:42.759
giving feedback. They don't even call it feedback. They call

514
00:27:42.799 --> 00:27:46.599
it envisioning sessions or something like that, whatever it is.

515
00:27:46.960 --> 00:27:49.440
But if you're constantly giving feedback, so when you do

516
00:27:49.519 --> 00:27:53.319
quote unquote a formal appraisal, it's nothing. The person has

517
00:27:53.359 --> 00:27:56.519
already known everything and you're moving back and forth and

518
00:27:56.519 --> 00:28:00.240
it's just like, okay, the appraisal really is much. Well,

519
00:28:00.240 --> 00:28:02.319
what are some of what goes for next year or

520
00:28:02.359 --> 00:28:04.599
the next six months, and what have we achieved? So

521
00:28:04.680 --> 00:28:10.160
those five things, which is nuance communication changing to become

522
00:28:10.279 --> 00:28:14.039
more of leading like things versus managing like things, providing

523
00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:17.200
people with sort of feedback if that makes if that

524
00:28:17.240 --> 00:28:22.359
makes sense, and then obviously encouraging employees to signal with

525
00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:26.519
the bad signal when they need your help. Of five ways, I.

526
00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:27.880
Want to echo a couple of things that you said

527
00:28:27.880 --> 00:28:29.720
there were shout and what you also have in the book,

528
00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:31.680
which is just tremendous solicits of viewers. You just you

529
00:28:31.720 --> 00:28:33.400
got to get the book. There's just so much in

530
00:28:33.440 --> 00:28:35.799
it that's going to help you. But on one thing

531
00:28:35.799 --> 00:28:38.240
you talked about the constant communication, and you know this

532
00:28:38.359 --> 00:28:42.480
idea of today people crave being being in connection, They

533
00:28:42.559 --> 00:28:46.000
crave feeling connected to other people. So that connection communication

534
00:28:46.119 --> 00:28:48.079
is so important. And one thing that you say very

535
00:28:48.119 --> 00:28:51.079
overtly in your book, which I profoundly agree with this,

536
00:28:51.440 --> 00:28:56.160
especially the younger generations resist being monitored. That's software monitoring

537
00:28:56.240 --> 00:28:57.119
stuff that's going on.

538
00:28:57.519 --> 00:28:58.559
Oh that is terrible.

539
00:28:58.920 --> 00:28:59.920
That is it is.

540
00:29:00.039 --> 00:29:02.680
It should be outlawed. It really should be. And so

541
00:29:02.720 --> 00:29:04.359
that's the first thing I just wanted to echo there,

542
00:29:04.359 --> 00:29:05.839
and then the other thing I wanted to echo too,

543
00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:08.359
on this notion of really, you know, how to give

544
00:29:09.000 --> 00:29:11.839
you know, good feedback, the kind of feedback that grows people.

545
00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:14.160
And I really like what you offer in your book

546
00:29:14.160 --> 00:29:16.480
for shot, where you're talking about, you know, don't just

547
00:29:16.759 --> 00:29:18.880
don't be harsh about it, said that wasn't good. It's

548
00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:21.039
not what I want. It's hey, let's talk about what

549
00:29:21.119 --> 00:29:23.039
really good performance looks like. You know that last project

550
00:29:23.319 --> 00:29:26.440
that you just just set in that was that was

551
00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:28.720
where it was at. That's great, So we can do

552
00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:30.880
more of that over here. So now what you're doing

553
00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:34.279
is you're teaching your people to develop greater, deeper skills.

554
00:29:34.319 --> 00:29:36.920
You're showing them what's good and writing them already, and

555
00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:39.799
you're helping to elevate their performance for the future. And

556
00:29:40.039 --> 00:29:43.440
most managers are not definitely not doing that right.

557
00:29:43.519 --> 00:29:46.200
So the idea always basically is, you know, when you're

558
00:29:46.240 --> 00:29:49.559
providing people with feedback, as you say, the key is

559
00:29:49.839 --> 00:29:52.279
you can remind them that this time they were not

560
00:29:52.359 --> 00:29:54.839
doing it to the potential that they'd done in the past. Time,

561
00:29:55.000 --> 00:29:58.079
was there something that was preventing them from doing so?

562
00:29:58.440 --> 00:30:01.319
Which is, hey, you you have done this at this

563
00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:03.720
high level. Today you didn't do this high level. Is

564
00:30:03.759 --> 00:30:08.279
there something going on personally? Nil? Right? Or is there

565
00:30:08.319 --> 00:30:10.599
a reason? Or is there something that I have set

566
00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:12.559
up an obstacle that didn't allow you to do it.

567
00:30:12.839 --> 00:30:15.720
So the idea is you're basically not criticizing the person

568
00:30:15.799 --> 00:30:19.079
or their potential. You're basically pointing out that this time

569
00:30:19.119 --> 00:30:21.839
they weren't working at their level of excellence. And that's

570
00:30:21.880 --> 00:30:25.480
so much easier. So the whole idea is, I'm you

571
00:30:25.960 --> 00:30:27.880
work at a high standard. Today, you did not work

572
00:30:27.920 --> 00:30:30.559
at that high standard. Can you explain to me was

573
00:30:30.599 --> 00:30:33.440
it something I did? Was there an external situation or

574
00:30:33.519 --> 00:30:35.759
just it didn't happen this time? That kind of things.

575
00:30:37.039 --> 00:30:38.680
And the other one is to remind them that you

576
00:30:38.720 --> 00:30:41.880
have gone through the same thing. So I would basically say, hey, listen,

577
00:30:42.119 --> 00:30:44.680
I've gone through the same challenges and yes, how I

578
00:30:44.839 --> 00:30:49.680
your storytelling? So this empathy storytelling giving people there that

579
00:30:49.720 --> 00:30:52.279
you have a sense of belief. So I always say

580
00:30:52.279 --> 00:30:55.640
you should leave a feedback meeting with clarity, energy, and belief.

581
00:30:56.599 --> 00:31:00.599
I like that to be inspired. Yeah, well, let's grab

582
00:31:00.640 --> 00:31:02.960
our last break. I'm your host doctor Realise Cortes. We've

583
00:31:03.000 --> 00:31:06.319
run on the air with Harbershaud Tobakawala, a futurist and

584
00:31:06.359 --> 00:31:10.319
seasoned businessman who helps unleash the superpowers of individual talent

585
00:31:10.359 --> 00:31:13.000
by helping them see, think, and feel differently so they

586
00:31:13.000 --> 00:31:18.599
can grow individual, individually, as teams and as organizations. We've

587
00:31:18.599 --> 00:31:22.279
been talking a bit this time about what the work

588
00:31:21.960 --> 00:31:24.960
will become in the future. In the last segment, we're

589
00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:27.640
talking about how to prepare for the future of work.

590
00:31:27.759 --> 00:31:28.519
We'll be right back.

591
00:31:43.799 --> 00:31:46.960
Doctor Elise Courts has as a management consultant specializing in

592
00:31:47.039 --> 00:31:50.720
meaning and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps

593
00:31:50.759 --> 00:31:54.160
companies visioneer for a greater purpose among stakeholders and develop

594
00:31:54.240 --> 00:31:59.000
purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance,

595
00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:02.079
and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to

596
00:32:02.119 --> 00:32:05.200
invite Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her

597
00:32:05.240 --> 00:32:08.480
at Elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get

598
00:32:08.519 --> 00:32:17.319
your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose

599
00:32:17.440 --> 00:32:20.680
with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or

600
00:32:20.720 --> 00:32:23.480
to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to

601
00:32:23.559 --> 00:32:29.079
Elise A LISEE at Eliscortes dot com. Now back to

602
00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:30.319
Working on Purpose.

603
00:32:35.599 --> 00:32:37.359
Thanks for stating with us, and welcome back to Working

604
00:32:37.400 --> 00:32:40.200
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes, if you're

605
00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:42.599
just now joining us. My guest is Rashad to Bakawalah.

606
00:32:42.680 --> 00:32:45.720
He's the author of Restoring the Soul of Business, Staying

607
00:32:45.799 --> 00:32:48.680
Human in the Age of Data, which helps people to think, feel,

608
00:32:48.720 --> 00:32:51.480
and see differently about how to grow their companies, their teams,

609
00:32:51.519 --> 00:32:55.160
and themselves to remain relevant in the transformational time. In

610
00:32:55.200 --> 00:32:58.279
his latest book, which we're talking about today, Rethinking Work,

611
00:32:58.440 --> 00:33:01.559
which helps people thrive the seismic changes that will occur

612
00:33:01.599 --> 00:33:04.960
at work due to combination of changing demographics, new mindsets,

613
00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:06.640
and the rise of distributed work as well as the

614
00:33:06.640 --> 00:33:09.480
spread of AI. So for this last segment here, Rashot,

615
00:33:09.559 --> 00:33:10.880
I want to get as much as I can as

616
00:33:10.920 --> 00:33:12.440
well out of you. This has already been nice and

617
00:33:12.519 --> 00:33:16.160
dense and tight you situate, but you come back at

618
00:33:16.160 --> 00:33:18.599
this at the last section of your book talking about

619
00:33:18.640 --> 00:33:22.519
how you've situated these major seismic shifts here and so

620
00:33:22.559 --> 00:33:26.440
now we want to talk about what organizations and leaders

621
00:33:26.480 --> 00:33:28.599
can do to be able to create this future. And

622
00:33:28.680 --> 00:33:30.519
one of the things I really appreciate that you say

623
00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:34.240
is that many senior leaders are saying, well, the future

624
00:33:34.359 --> 00:33:37.440
is too uncertain to make any change right now, and

625
00:33:37.480 --> 00:33:39.599
you really push against that. In fact, several my other

626
00:33:39.640 --> 00:33:43.200
guests have also said organizations that don't change are perfectly

627
00:33:43.319 --> 00:33:47.279
right for disruption. So if you could say a few

628
00:33:47.319 --> 00:33:50.920
things about how now, since we're talking about orchitecting the

629
00:33:50.920 --> 00:33:54.240
future of work, what can leaders and organizations do.

630
00:33:55.839 --> 00:33:58.000
Well. One of the biggest things to great extent, when

631
00:33:58.039 --> 00:34:01.559
somebody basically says, you know, I cannot make any decisions

632
00:34:01.640 --> 00:34:05.880
because the future is uncertain, I basically say, I just

633
00:34:05.920 --> 00:34:09.519
want to let you know. You've just described the inherent

634
00:34:11.280 --> 00:34:15.639
reality of life. Life is uncertain. So in effect, you're

635
00:34:15.679 --> 00:34:19.480
basically saying you want certainty when life is not certain, Like,

636
00:34:19.519 --> 00:34:22.480
how does that work? So what is you can't do that?

637
00:34:22.920 --> 00:34:26.199
But interestingly, there are some things that are tending to

638
00:34:26.199 --> 00:34:31.119
be certain, and those certainties make your current business model

639
00:34:31.199 --> 00:34:36.599
uncertain and you're not willing to actually adjust to those certainties.

640
00:34:36.639 --> 00:34:39.800
There are certain certainties. So my book basically puts forth

641
00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:42.320
certain certainties which are quite shocking for a lot of

642
00:34:42.360 --> 00:34:47.039
business people. So one is that increasingly in many many industries,

643
00:34:47.639 --> 00:34:51.679
scale will not be an advantage. So many companies basically say,

644
00:34:51.679 --> 00:34:55.519
you know, we've got scale of spending, scale of manufacturing,

645
00:34:55.679 --> 00:35:00.960
scale of talent, and AI these new market at places

646
00:35:02.519 --> 00:35:05.599
else basically is the technology that allows David to bring

647
00:35:05.639 --> 00:35:12.480
down Goliath. Now there's obviously in some industries like semiconductor manufacturing, pharmaceuticals,

648
00:35:12.519 --> 00:35:16.719
scale may matter, but not everywhere. That's number one, So okay,

649
00:35:16.760 --> 00:35:19.480
I've built a business model where scale will be less important.

650
00:35:19.639 --> 00:35:22.480
Second is a lot of people say I'm going to

651
00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:25.559
use AI to make myself more efficient and more effective.

652
00:35:25.639 --> 00:35:29.039
I said, that's very cool, but every company is going

653
00:35:29.079 --> 00:35:31.639
to basically use AI to be more efficient and effective.

654
00:35:32.159 --> 00:35:34.000
So you're not going to go running around saying you're

655
00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:36.719
better than another company because you use electricity. You're not

656
00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:38.519
going to say you're going to better the company because

657
00:35:38.519 --> 00:35:41.760
you use AI. The biggest challenge of AI is not

658
00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:44.159
how to take your current business model and make it

659
00:35:44.199 --> 00:35:48.840
faster and cheaper, but to rethink your business. And the

660
00:35:48.880 --> 00:35:52.199
big thing today is companies that rethink their business have

661
00:35:52.280 --> 00:35:55.000
to recognize that their opportunities and threats come from outside

662
00:35:55.000 --> 00:35:58.079
their category. Very much like the automobile companies saw the

663
00:35:58.079 --> 00:36:02.280
biggest opportunity and threat emactly from Tesla and Uber and

664
00:36:02.360 --> 00:36:05.400
not from each other. So the first thing to think

665
00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:07.519
about is why does your firm exist? Why is it

666
00:36:07.599 --> 00:36:11.960
designed like that when there is no scale advantages. The

667
00:36:12.039 --> 00:36:14.800
other one to actually think about, which is even more

668
00:36:14.840 --> 00:36:18.039
further like a front. The whole thing is why you

669
00:36:18.079 --> 00:36:20.239
even organize the way you are and could it be

670
00:36:20.320 --> 00:36:23.280
that in the future a majority of the work that

671
00:36:23.400 --> 00:36:26.519
is done inside your organization is going to be done

672
00:36:26.559 --> 00:36:30.000
outside your organization by people who aren't in your organization,

673
00:36:30.400 --> 00:36:32.440
And you might say, what are you talking about, Well,

674
00:36:32.480 --> 00:36:36.440
that's existing. It exists. For instance, in the world of entertainment,

675
00:36:36.880 --> 00:36:40.360
very few people work at the studios, right they work

676
00:36:40.400 --> 00:36:42.199
on the show, they work on the movie, they work

677
00:36:42.239 --> 00:36:44.960
on the Broadway play or whatever. That is. So in

678
00:36:45.039 --> 00:36:49.639
effect that your company is organized wrong. Scale may not

679
00:36:49.679 --> 00:36:52.320
be the big issue. Those things are all quite certain

680
00:36:52.400 --> 00:36:55.559
because of AI, because of distributed work, because of marketplaces.

681
00:36:56.519 --> 00:36:58.920
At least get ready for those certainties if you think

682
00:36:58.960 --> 00:37:03.679
you can't operate uncertainty, if that makes sense, and then

683
00:37:03.719 --> 00:37:06.440
you have to retrain your people because everybody basically says

684
00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:08.960
I want to transform my company and you and I

685
00:37:09.039 --> 00:37:13.320
know that companies don't transform, people do, right, and where

686
00:37:13.320 --> 00:37:16.440
are you helping them transform? So it's so obvious, so

687
00:37:16.440 --> 00:37:18.280
a lot of people when they've read my book. So

688
00:37:18.440 --> 00:37:20.280
you make it so obviously. You tell us exactly, what

689
00:37:20.280 --> 00:37:22.000
are some of the things we should be thinking about

690
00:37:22.079 --> 00:37:24.440
on what to do? I said, Yeah, which of these

691
00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:27.360
makes sense for your category, your country? You should start

692
00:37:27.400 --> 00:37:29.840
thinking about, right, and you come up with a solution.

693
00:37:29.960 --> 00:37:32.199
I can't tell you what the solution is because I

694
00:37:32.199 --> 00:37:35.400
don't know your company, your category, and your current life

695
00:37:35.400 --> 00:37:38.960
cycle of your company, but clearly I can tell you

696
00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:41.199
it's not the same as it used to be. And

697
00:37:41.239 --> 00:37:43.960
by the way, going backwards, you're not going to find

698
00:37:43.960 --> 00:37:48.639
an answer. The answer is you in you with your partners,

699
00:37:48.679 --> 00:37:51.119
and in the future, your answer is not looking back.

700
00:37:52.280 --> 00:37:55.400
Yeah. I want to echo to this notion of retraining

701
00:37:55.440 --> 00:37:58.920
the workforce, and you also really talk about the importance

702
00:37:58.960 --> 00:38:01.679
of embracing growth mindset. Completely agree in a line with that.

703
00:38:01.800 --> 00:38:03.920
Everything you've got in your book, I can't argue with

704
00:38:03.960 --> 00:38:05.920
anything but this notion.

705
00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:09.440
How many organizations push against investing in developing their people.

706
00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:13.920
Yes, they do. And one of the things I've always

707
00:38:13.920 --> 00:38:17.519
basically said is if you want to transform your company,

708
00:38:17.599 --> 00:38:19.840
And because once upon a time I had a big job,

709
00:38:19.960 --> 00:38:22.519
and with my teams and with my CEO and board,

710
00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:25.960
we did transform a company. And what did we learn.

711
00:38:26.119 --> 00:38:29.159
What we learned the hard way was that there are

712
00:38:29.199 --> 00:38:32.960
six things that make transformation happen, and most companies don't

713
00:38:33.000 --> 00:38:36.039
even get the first three right, which are difficult in themselves,

714
00:38:36.280 --> 00:38:39.480
which is coming up with a strategy, then figuring out

715
00:38:39.519 --> 00:38:41.760
what gaps do you have to strategy I call future

716
00:38:41.760 --> 00:38:45.079
competitive advantage? Then what gaps do you have? And that

717
00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:46.960
can be either you hire people or do M and A,

718
00:38:47.400 --> 00:38:50.159
and then often you do a reorganization. Those are hard

719
00:38:50.199 --> 00:38:52.480
to do. And let's say you get those three done.

720
00:38:53.000 --> 00:38:57.480
What we learn the hard way is that started off, four, five,

721
00:38:57.519 --> 00:39:01.760
and six are all about people. People don't fit in spreadsheets.

722
00:39:01.960 --> 00:39:05.400
People are messy, right, So I always basically say, you

723
00:39:05.400 --> 00:39:08.039
know very much like it. Supposedly it was Michael Tyson,

724
00:39:08.039 --> 00:39:09.760
but I think with Joe Lewis is said everybody's got

725
00:39:09.800 --> 00:39:12.039
a plan till they get punched in the face. I said,

726
00:39:12.039 --> 00:39:14.760
every leadership team, after they have their Excel spreadsheet and

727
00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:17.840
their board meetings, gets punched in the face by something

728
00:39:17.840 --> 00:39:21.800
called people. Everybody in their organization basically says, what's wrong

729
00:39:21.840 --> 00:39:24.360
with you? And they ask the following three questions, which

730
00:39:24.440 --> 00:39:27.519
nobody answers. Why is this good for me? I understand

731
00:39:27.559 --> 00:39:29.800
it's good for the company. It's good for you, big hotshots.

732
00:39:29.880 --> 00:39:33.280
Why is it good for me? Right, nobody's answering that.

733
00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:36.960
The next question is, can you tell me how my

734
00:39:37.039 --> 00:39:39.079
incentives will change? If you want me to do this

735
00:39:39.119 --> 00:39:41.880
new behavior, how will that impact my salary? And if

736
00:39:41.880 --> 00:39:44.199
you're basically continue to promote people who are doing the

737
00:39:44.199 --> 00:39:45.920
old stuff and telling me to do the new stuff,

738
00:39:45.960 --> 00:39:49.639
I'll do the old stuff right. And finally, okay, you

739
00:39:49.639 --> 00:39:51.679
want me to go in this new direction, maybe because

740
00:39:51.760 --> 00:39:54.960
I will grow and you're changing my incentives. That's interesting.

741
00:39:55.360 --> 00:39:56.920
Now explain to me how I'm going to learn these

742
00:39:56.960 --> 00:39:59.480
new skill sets. Are you going to give me tuition?

743
00:40:00.039 --> 00:40:01.880
Are you going to give me resources? Are you going

744
00:40:01.920 --> 00:40:05.320
to give me time to self learn? Where is that? Right?

745
00:40:05.639 --> 00:40:08.440
And So, basically, a company that wants to get to

746
00:40:08.480 --> 00:40:13.719
the future and sees investment in their talent as an

747
00:40:13.800 --> 00:40:18.159
expense is lost at sea because as I always tell

748
00:40:18.199 --> 00:40:21.239
people in the agency business, they would say, our assets

749
00:40:21.280 --> 00:40:25.320
go up and down the elevator. Okay, And I said,

750
00:40:25.519 --> 00:40:27.880
that's true, but you don't treat them like your assets

751
00:40:27.920 --> 00:40:30.360
are going up and down the elevator, because if your

752
00:40:30.360 --> 00:40:33.239
assets were going up and down your elevator, you would

753
00:40:33.280 --> 00:40:36.519
invest in your assets. I believe you are treating them

754
00:40:36.559 --> 00:40:38.679
as an expense, and your expense is going up and

755
00:40:38.719 --> 00:40:42.199
down the elevator, and therefore you think any investment in

756
00:40:42.239 --> 00:40:46.280
your expense is another expense, while an investment in an

757
00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:49.679
asset grows the asset. And then of a sudden everybody

758
00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:51.599
keeps quiet and says, oh, what do we do? I said,

759
00:40:51.639 --> 00:40:52.599
we'll invest in training.

760
00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:55.280
You know, I have had a privilege of working with

761
00:40:55.320 --> 00:40:58.320
a leader where I've we've followed him I don't know,

762
00:40:58.400 --> 00:41:00.400
four different places. The very first thing he does when

763
00:41:00.440 --> 00:41:03.000
it comes in is he invests in training. The very

764
00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:04.679
first thing he does is he comes and he lifts

765
00:41:04.719 --> 00:41:06.599
up the team. It's the first thing he does. So

766
00:41:06.639 --> 00:41:09.320
I want to just echo that. Okay, Now I want

767
00:41:09.360 --> 00:41:11.519
to talk about you. You put forth these ideas, this

768
00:41:11.599 --> 00:41:14.159
idea of how to redesign structures, and you talk about

769
00:41:14.199 --> 00:41:16.320
three transformations and the first one that I found so

770
00:41:16.320 --> 00:41:19.000
so intreatuing. Again, I never heard this before. Is you

771
00:41:19.039 --> 00:41:22.320
talk about moving from legacy structures to roots and wings design.

772
00:41:23.079 --> 00:41:26.199
Yeah. Yeah, So one of the things is the following,

773
00:41:26.719 --> 00:41:29.000
which is I do believe and you know as someone

774
00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:32.400
who worked in the same company, that I believe roots

775
00:41:32.440 --> 00:41:35.760
are very important because roots of are the history of

776
00:41:35.800 --> 00:41:40.400
a company offered. It's the culture, the story, the founder's beliefs,

777
00:41:40.440 --> 00:41:44.119
all those are important. But what happens is if you

778
00:41:44.199 --> 00:41:46.000
just hang out to your roots to become a stump,

779
00:41:46.039 --> 00:41:48.400
because you need to grow. I need to grow in

780
00:41:48.599 --> 00:41:52.639
the where the future is so very much like the

781
00:41:53.039 --> 00:41:56.400
you know, the branches, right, the wings of the branches

782
00:41:56.440 --> 00:42:03.000
of a tree, right, basic find a way towards light,

783
00:42:04.320 --> 00:42:07.039
because that's what they're trying to do. They're phototropic, so

784
00:42:07.079 --> 00:42:11.079
the roots provide them with some water, but they grow

785
00:42:11.239 --> 00:42:14.239
looking for lights and then that light feeds the roots.

786
00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:17.480
And you need the root and wing design, which means

787
00:42:17.519 --> 00:42:21.159
you need both a focus and where you came from,

788
00:42:21.519 --> 00:42:25.320
but also very importantly where you're going. And if you

789
00:42:25.400 --> 00:42:27.840
have only roots, you become a stump, and if it

790
00:42:27.960 --> 00:42:30.039
only wings, you become like we work, you get blown

791
00:42:30.079 --> 00:42:33.440
away because you don't have any of the discipline and

792
00:42:33.480 --> 00:42:36.800
the brand and the financial wherewith all which you also need,

793
00:42:37.079 --> 00:42:39.159
you just can't be like airy fairy. But on the

794
00:42:39.199 --> 00:42:41.599
other hand, you can't be like sitting down and looking

795
00:42:41.599 --> 00:42:44.039
at your belly button, which is your best So you

796
00:42:44.039 --> 00:42:46.039
have to do the roots and wings. So that's you know,

797
00:42:46.119 --> 00:42:48.039
one of those things. And have this other thing about

798
00:42:48.719 --> 00:42:53.239
jazz versus you know, classical music, yes, and the other one.

799
00:42:53.519 --> 00:42:57.119
And the other one is basically thinking about running schizophrenic models,

800
00:42:57.559 --> 00:43:00.239
which is one focused on today and one focused on tomorrow,

801
00:43:00.719 --> 00:43:03.880
but letting the tomorrow really compete and focus on tomorrow

802
00:43:04.199 --> 00:43:05.960
versus having to carry a lot of today.

803
00:43:06.519 --> 00:43:09.880
M so good, so much good stuff for Sean. Okay,

804
00:43:09.920 --> 00:43:12.199
so now we're getting close to the in here already.

805
00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:16.559
You have a whole chapter on revisioning the work rippled world,

806
00:43:16.559 --> 00:43:20.440
if you will, and so you know, you address what

807
00:43:20.480 --> 00:43:24.280
will make future companies great. So if you can say

808
00:43:24.679 --> 00:43:26.480
just a little bit about what you're kind of getting

809
00:43:26.519 --> 00:43:27.400
at in that chapter.

810
00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:33.440
So if the future will probably so, I'm increasingly beginning

811
00:43:33.480 --> 00:43:35.239
and I did have this line in my book, but

812
00:43:35.280 --> 00:43:37.880
as I've been thinking about it, I believe that in

813
00:43:37.920 --> 00:43:42.519
the future, the book says, is there will be there'll

814
00:43:42.519 --> 00:43:46.440
be fewer companies there will be companies. Most companies will

815
00:43:46.440 --> 00:43:49.639
have fewer employees than they have today, and there'll be

816
00:43:50.159 --> 00:43:53.480
very few, very large companies, but there will be. But

817
00:43:53.960 --> 00:43:57.559
there will actually be more work and more employment in

818
00:43:57.599 --> 00:44:01.159
the future than today because they will be attually more companies,

819
00:44:02.320 --> 00:44:04.440
and the companies will be smaller, but there'll be many.

820
00:44:04.440 --> 00:44:06.400
So I call it the whale and blanked in model.

821
00:44:06.480 --> 00:44:08.679
There will be some whales and they'll be planked, and

822
00:44:08.719 --> 00:44:11.440
there'll be the occasional squid and shock in between, but

823
00:44:11.480 --> 00:44:15.159
it's a whale and blanketed model. And in that particular model,

824
00:44:15.400 --> 00:44:18.320
you know, a lot of what talent and management are

825
00:44:18.400 --> 00:44:20.559
going to have to do is they're going to basically

826
00:44:20.599 --> 00:44:23.719
have to run companies in a way that is built

827
00:44:23.760 --> 00:44:25.760
a on a growth mindset, which is how do we

828
00:44:25.800 --> 00:44:28.519
actually continue to basically sort of learn. They're going to

829
00:44:28.559 --> 00:44:31.960
have to find ways to basically embrace technology and talent

830
00:44:32.679 --> 00:44:36.519
in very interesting, you know sort of ways. They're going

831
00:44:36.559 --> 00:44:40.199
to have to be very good inspirational storytellers because you're

832
00:44:40.239 --> 00:44:42.280
going to have to pay into vision for the future

833
00:44:42.760 --> 00:44:44.440
and you're going to have to get people there.

834
00:44:46.480 --> 00:44:48.880
Yeah, that's one of the many things that I, of

835
00:44:48.920 --> 00:44:51.559
course I gravitated to in your book is how you

836
00:44:51.599 --> 00:44:56.000
describe how managers and leaders must evolve. And of course

837
00:44:56.119 --> 00:44:59.239
you do talk about the importance of in terms of

838
00:44:59.280 --> 00:45:03.119
the leader is to prioritize inspiration, and you talk about

839
00:45:03.159 --> 00:45:07.239
how many many leaders are very very very strongly astute

840
00:45:07.239 --> 00:45:11.800
intellectually but incredibly flat emotionally. You talk about the need

841
00:45:11.840 --> 00:45:15.239
for faster, continuous learning, right and then also connecting the dots,

842
00:45:15.280 --> 00:45:17.119
making sure that you can see how all the things

843
00:45:17.119 --> 00:45:20.679
fit together, your synergies, your ecosystems. And then I also

844
00:45:20.800 --> 00:45:24.000
can't help but you know, illustrate this idea that you

845
00:45:24.079 --> 00:45:26.960
put forth of the need to learn how to communicate clearly,

846
00:45:27.079 --> 00:45:29.920
eloquently and motivationally. You just sort of mentioned that the

847
00:45:29.920 --> 00:45:33.199
storyteller piece of that. That's the reason, of course I

848
00:45:33.400 --> 00:45:35.280
focus on that is because that's the world that I

849
00:45:35.320 --> 00:45:38.559
also help organizations with too. And it was so heartening

850
00:45:38.599 --> 00:45:40.639
to hear you say that, like, oh, yes, this is

851
00:45:40.719 --> 00:45:42.159
it's just not me who believes this.

852
00:45:42.199 --> 00:45:46.159
There's this, it's it's it's critically important. As I tell

853
00:45:46.239 --> 00:45:50.519
people again and again, there are three things that people forget.

854
00:45:50.719 --> 00:45:53.400
One is, you know, Joan Didion have this great line,

855
00:45:54.000 --> 00:45:56.679
which is she was the famous essays which as we

856
00:45:56.760 --> 00:46:00.400
tell ourselves stories in order to live. Okay, and in

857
00:46:00.440 --> 00:46:04.960
many ways, all technology is really about enhancing storytelling. And

858
00:46:05.000 --> 00:46:07.800
we're living in this ai another age. So when we

859
00:46:07.880 --> 00:46:10.639
had fire, in addition to having warmth and food that

860
00:46:10.679 --> 00:46:13.559
we could eat, it also let people gather around and

861
00:46:13.559 --> 00:46:16.199
tell stories to each other. When you had the veal,

862
00:46:16.400 --> 00:46:19.880
you can visit other places. That's why most stories now

863
00:46:20.480 --> 00:46:23.159
start with someone goes on a journey or a stranger

864
00:46:23.239 --> 00:46:27.280
comes to town, right, and so there is a direction

865
00:46:27.400 --> 00:46:30.159
between advances in technology and storytelling.

866
00:46:32.320 --> 00:46:35.360
How and terribly enlightening this suspense such a great conversation.

867
00:46:36.119 --> 00:46:38.599
I have two last questions for you, both kind of fast.

868
00:46:38.639 --> 00:46:40.480
One is, since you've written the book, of course, we

869
00:46:40.480 --> 00:46:42.079
all know that takes a long time to write a book.

870
00:46:42.280 --> 00:46:44.559
Has there been any other thoughts that you've come to

871
00:46:44.639 --> 00:46:46.880
since you've wrote You've written that book that you want

872
00:46:46.880 --> 00:46:48.119
to share. And then I'm going to ask you just

873
00:46:48.119 --> 00:46:49.079
to close the conversation.

874
00:46:49.639 --> 00:46:52.320
Sure, So there's one analogy that I've come up with

875
00:46:52.360 --> 00:46:56.519
a line, which is since I've written the book, which

876
00:46:56.599 --> 00:46:59.800
is in the future, there'll be far fewer jobs than

877
00:46:59.800 --> 00:47:02.800
there are today, but there'll be much more work to

878
00:47:02.840 --> 00:47:07.880
be done, okay, And the best way to describe it

879
00:47:07.960 --> 00:47:11.639
is that music is the best analogy that I give.

880
00:47:12.400 --> 00:47:14.400
In the past, the way you if you wanted to

881
00:47:14.440 --> 00:47:16.559
listen to music, you had to go where Mozart was

882
00:47:16.559 --> 00:47:20.480
playing the music right right, Then you have the gramophone record,

883
00:47:20.519 --> 00:47:22.280
but you have to afford it. Then you have the

884
00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:26.159
sody workmen you can walk around. Today we listen to

885
00:47:26.280 --> 00:47:30.559
music which is completely up in the cloud, disconnected from

886
00:47:30.559 --> 00:47:33.960
any physical device, disconnected from the song next to it,

887
00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:37.559
which the person who made the music might I've wanted

888
00:47:37.559 --> 00:47:40.239
you to. And how do we listen to music. We

889
00:47:40.280 --> 00:47:43.920
listen to music through playlists based on what we need

890
00:47:44.000 --> 00:47:46.599
to get done. You want to run, you have this playlist.

891
00:47:46.599 --> 00:47:48.639
You want to be calm, you have this playlist which

892
00:47:48.679 --> 00:47:52.239
is either algorithmically created or you hand curate. Doesn't make sense.

893
00:47:52.599 --> 00:47:55.039
So we're living in a world where there is going

894
00:47:55.079 --> 00:47:58.000
to be far more music than there is today, right,

895
00:47:58.320 --> 00:48:01.599
far more musicians than there is in the past, but

896
00:48:01.840 --> 00:48:05.480
far less of a music industry, and far less of

897
00:48:05.639 --> 00:48:08.559
CDs and LPs and shops and all of those other

898
00:48:08.679 --> 00:48:11.079
kinds of things. And that's where the future of work

899
00:48:11.159 --> 00:48:14.760
is going fewer jobs, more work to be done.

900
00:48:15.519 --> 00:48:17.920
That is a powerful way to finish the conversation. Anything

901
00:48:17.920 --> 00:48:19.199
else you want to say in closing see in the

902
00:48:19.280 --> 00:48:20.440
next thirty seconds.

903
00:48:21.039 --> 00:48:23.440
Absolutely not accepting, but thank you very much for the

904
00:48:23.480 --> 00:48:26.519
opportunity to be on your show and hope your guests enjoy.

905
00:48:27.559 --> 00:48:29.800
I learned so much from you, Rashad. You have elevated

906
00:48:29.880 --> 00:48:32.719
my heart, my mind, everything, and I really really appreciate

907
00:48:32.719 --> 00:48:35.440
you coming on working and purpose, sharing your thoughts and

908
00:48:35.880 --> 00:48:36.639
what you've learned.

909
00:48:36.440 --> 00:48:38.119
Over the last forty some years.

910
00:48:38.599 --> 00:48:39.440
Thank you very much.

911
00:48:40.280 --> 00:48:41.840
Listeners in viewers, you are going to want to learn

912
00:48:41.840 --> 00:48:45.159
more about Rashad Tobakawaala the work he does advising leaders

913
00:48:45.199 --> 00:48:48.400
and companies on reinventing themselves and growing in his books,

914
00:48:48.440 --> 00:48:51.199
including Rethinking Work. You can start by going to one

915
00:48:51.239 --> 00:48:55.960
of his websites, it's Rethinkingwork dot. IOW see you next

916
00:48:55.960 --> 00:48:58.840
week for another nourishing and in elevating conversation. And remember,

917
00:48:58.920 --> 00:49:00.639
work is one of the best events and means of

918
00:49:00.679 --> 00:49:03.480
realizing our potential and making the impact we crave and

919
00:49:03.559 --> 00:49:05.519
can give us the opportunity to business in a way that.

920
00:49:05.480 --> 00:49:08.000
Betters the world. So let's work on purpose.

921
00:49:11.039 --> 00:49:13.679
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program, be sure to

922
00:49:13.719 --> 00:49:17.360
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes,

923
00:49:17.480 --> 00:49:20.800
each week on W four CY. Together, we'll create a

924
00:49:20.840 --> 00:49:25.440
world where business operates conscientiously. Leadership inspires and passion performance,

925
00:49:25.559 --> 00:49:28.280
and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning

926
00:49:28.360 --> 00:49:32.159
and purpose they crave. See you there, Let's Work on Purpose.