The Distinguishing Value of Upstanding Company Character

What's working on purpose anyway? Each week we ponder the answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their highest potential. Business can be such a force for good in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we all want working on purpose. Now. Here is your host, doctor Elise Cortez. Welcome back to the Working and Purpose Program. Thanks for tuning in again this week. I'm your host, doctor Elis Cortes too an you live from Dallas, which is home based for me. If you don't know me yet, I'm a management consultant specializing and meaning and purpose, organizational logotherapist, inspirational speaker, social scientist, and author. If you learn more about me and now we can work together at at least Cortez dot com or Gusto Dashnow dot com. Let me think my partner and sponsor work proud. We are a perfect collaboration. Everyone wants to know they matter and at the work they do is meaningful and appreciated. Work Proud is a mobile platform built to encourage employees to share stories and recognize each other's contribution. Work Proud empowers hr and business leaders to help create company cultures where all employees are inspired to feel proud of their work and proud of their company. Go learn more at work proud dot com. With us today is Frank Calderoni, who is the chief executive officer of Anaplan and the chairman of the company's board of Directors. Is the author of Upstanding, How Company Character Catalyzes loyalty, agility and Hypergrowth. We'll be talking today about why company character is so important in today's business climate. Learn about some of the key cultural issues Frank has addressed at Naplan, and hear about a few examples of when company character activated makes all the difference. Echoes today from San Francisco. Frank, Welcome to Working on Purpose. Thank you, re Lise. It's great to be here. It's so great to have you. And as I told you in our exchange before we got on air, I loved your book, and as you know, I read the books cover to cover. But what I want to just give you a shout out for a really quick before we dig into it is I just found the yearbook full of inspiring concepts, but all really just chock full of practical tools and resources. It's just a home run. Thank you, Lise, and I really appreciate you reading it from cover cover so thoroughly, so thank you, and I appreciate the feedback and you're so welcome. And so for our listeners and viewers who don't know get the way that I do because they haven't read the book, I think it's important that we recognize that what we read and what reading that book we're going to hear from you today is really a wealth of experience that you've built over your career. I've got this right twenty one years at IBM seven or nine at Cisco, and then it read hat and a few other places along the way, and then you came to Antiplan in twenty seventeen. So you talk about when you came to Antiplan in the book of how you wanted to bring those experiences to help the organization. So kind of a great start. Yes, I've been around for a while, I have to say that, and I you know age of course, but I've been fortunate to have worked for some great organizations over the years. You highlighted a few, you know, if I go back in twenty one years at IBM, and I was at the time with IBM when they were growing at a very fast pace, really developing, and it was a model of an organization that really spent a lot of time. And I remember the initial premise as far as the value respect for the individual, and then those twenty one years I really learned how an organization really can respect the individual and as a result, the individual is going to do a lot for the organization and that I saw that play out for those twenty one years and I really value that. As you also mentioned, I spent you know, over twelve years at Cisco, another great organization, you know, working closely with a leader like John Chamber and some of the other leadership team that I had the good fortune of working with. I learned a lot from them. But another organization that spent a lot of time cultivating culture at the leadership level and all the way down throughout the organization, and it was a big part of what made Cisco successful. And again I learned a lot. And then also after that, I spent several years at red Hat as the cfo COO. But here was an organization that open source was their software right, just have everyone kind of work in that environment. But they also had an open culture, and I saw firsthand that when you empower people and give them the ability to speak up and be authentic, it's powerful. And I saw a lot of that. So when I came to Anna Plan, what I tried to do is pull from those experiences and having spent so many years really under standing and appreciating that culture is important. It eats strategy for breakfast. I mean that old saying really comes into play, and so I try to even take it collectively to another level. In the four and a half years I've been part of the Antiplant, and we're going to dive into some of the things that you did because you talk about in the book in the second part of the show. But before we do that, I think it's really important and we set the stage for what your book is really built on, which I just think is so important, and that is this trifecta of unexpected events that no one could have expected, as you say, the global pandemic, the recession, and then of course the murder of George Floyd so well you say a little bit more about those experiences why they're so important about a book about company character. So after at least all those years of experience, I think the last fifteen months for everyone, as you mentioned, the pandemic, social unrests, global recession, various other things, all those unprecedented activity really brought about a signific think an amount of change altogether and provided CEOs, leaders and organizations an ability to deal with that change. And I think as a result, both from a leadership perspective and individuals in general, but both personally and professionally, there was a major cultural shift that needed to have some attention paid to it. And I think those events required companies and organizations to really define and demonstrate their character, just like people have character. I think it forced organizations to have to step up and really act upon their character as an organization for the people within the organization as well as for the people in the communities that the organization interacts with. And I thought that, you know, having that all come together, and I actually spent those fifteen months plus really kind of trying to put down some notes and developed the Upstanding book which talks about organization character. And then to top it off you trot yourself into a group of CEOs can being by Google, which I thought was fantastic. And the discussion that you talk about in the book was the change and sensibility toward business leaders engaging on ESG environmental, social and governance issues directly and indirectly affecting their companies. And so there was a clear consensus that came out of that will you share that with us? So first, it was a great opportunity to be invited by Google to be part of that CEO forum. It was a virtual event. It was like you can imagine any company across the US and really global companies as well participated and it was an open forum and there were a couple of topics, but I think the topic that really resonated with me was really reflecting on these these past fifteen months and where CEOs we're really talking about how their position in the organizations have changed in those fifteen months, where they felt it was no longer acceptable to sit on the sidelines when it comes to ESG issues because the employees were requiring it, the communities were requirement requiring it, and cels really had to step up and take a position. One way or the other, and it made a difference, I think, And so hearing it consistently discussed among that group of CEOs I thought was very impactful. I did too. And then you take it another step further and you take it from the insight, take it from the actual individual perspective here, and you make a very strong case in your book too, that we're all dealing with these heightened expectations that employees, customers, investors have a business sector to lead the way through these daily changes. So business is recognizing that this is important for them to take a stance, but so are the individuals in the community as well. Yeah, I think you know, first of all, if you think about employees that are part of an organization, I think of the last couple of years, and it even was accelerated in the last fifteen months. Individuals don't just look for a job for job sake. Yes, that's important in what they do and how they do it, but they select a job also for the organization that they're part of, and so as a result, there's certain requirements that they are expectations that they have that organization, one to attract them to the character that that organization would have and then retain them because it's a very competitive marketplace and they could decide to go elsewhere. So I think that's putting more pressure on organizations to really step up and have a purpose for what they do and how they do it, and then develop a character that helps them decide maybe right from wrong, or where to take positions or not. I think the same is true with customers, right, customers of those organizations have a choice as well, And I think we've seen over the years that even customers take a position on where they buy from depending upon what that organization stands for or maybe does not stand for right. And so as a result, again there's more onus, on the leaders and on the organizations to really step into this new world. Completely agree. So now the way I think we've established the foundation here and what we're talking about, I think now we should distinguish the terms here. So you've been using both personal characters as well as organizational character, So would you distinguish them force in your particular special way. So I think personal character is a code of conduct that we apply when we have a choice to make right. It's the framework for how we as individuals make a decision. Organizational character is comprised of kind of key traits that are also informed by the values, the values that the organization and the people within that organization feel are important to them, that they then embody and they have behaviors that support those values, and then the employees within the organization embrace them and commit to define those behaviors and align with the overall purpose and feel a sense of belonging. And I actually know from my research, Frank, we talked about this when we first spoke as a meaning and work researcher, that sense of belonging is so powerful. So I love that you address that, and then you take it one step further in your book. And so we've been talking about character here, but then you go on to explain that company character is the core that grounds culture and strategy. I mean, it is the persistent through line of fundamental beliefs and values uniting people and teams working with a shared purpose. That I think that that right there, that one or two sentences is just so jam packed with import Yeah. I agree, of course, because I think you know, again, it's if you start at that higher purpose, it's it's it's the purpose that allows people to feel a connection to the organization and then allows them to really identify with those values and then emulate those values. And whether those values, like an anaplan, are open or collaborative, or tenacious or being authentic. People then know what's expected of them. They also know how they want to behave or can behave, and there's a lot of respect and trust among those individuals. And in the end, when when you have that, they're going to be more energized, they're going to be more enthusiastic about what they're doing, and you know that that ties back to, you know, the success of the organization, because if you have people in the organization that enjoy doing what they're doing, enjoy working with the people that they're working with, and feel that they can bring their authentic self to their organization or to their job, they're going to do the best and that that drives him around high performance and then success overall. And it not only stays within the organization, it starts to move out into your ecosystem, your community as well as in your customers, and that becomes contagious as well. Yeah, and so I've certainly been inside organizations when that is present. What you're talking about, they're frank there's literally a buzz that you can feel, and here in the room it's that palpable. It's incredible, incredible energy. So and one of the things, at least I'll just say because when I first you know, as I've been with Anaplan now for four and a half years, I also hear it a lot from customers, our customers, because it's not so much even just the product that they enjoy and reason why they we provide them this service, but they talk about the people that they interact with and the special bond or or the engagement that they have. That our employees are committed to their success. And I know most companies want to say that and they should strive to say that, but making it a reality is what makes the difference. Well, and you've also said in your book that you've got customers who have come to work for you. That's a termendous testament, right, Yes, for sure, yes, And that is good right because they want to be on the inside at times as well as being on the customer side, and so they like that there's also ananta planners that go work for our customers. So it shows that the community that we're part of doesn't just stay in the walls of our organization, it goes out into our partners, and it also goes out into our customers, which of course I applauded. You know, that's a big part of my messaging. So with that, let's take our first break. Joining us today is Frank Calderoni. He's the chief executive officer of Anna Plan and the tournament of the company's board of Directors. He is the author of Upstanding, How Company, Excuse Me? How Company Character Catalyzes loyalty, agility and Hypergrowth. I'm your host. Alas Cortez, doctor Release Cortez is a management consultant specializing in meaning and purpose and inspirational speaker and author. She helps companies visioneer for greater purpose us among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite a lease to speak to your organization, please visit her at Eleise Cortez dot com. Let's talk about how to get your employees working on purpose. This is working on purpose with doctor Release Cortez. To reach our program today or open a conversation with Elise send an email to Elise Alis at Elise Cortez dot com. Now back to working on Purpose. Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to working on Purpose. As we watched the pandemic continue on, we look for ways to help companies support their employees handle their anxiety, stress and depression and feeling disconnected, while also helping to lift and inspire them with ongoing professional development. So we now offer a well being webinar learning series called Grab your gusto Ftal Wellbeing from the inside Out. You can learn more about it at least cortest dot com or email me at at least at least cortest dot com if you're just joining the program. My guest is Frank Calderoni. He's the chief executive officer of Anaplan and the chairman of the company's board of directors. In the beginning of the show, we were talking about what's happening in the world today that requires company character, and now we're going to talk about what a few of the things that Frank and his team have been doing to address company culture at Annaplan. So you say in the book here, it's so interesting you talk about how companies and their leaders can't be silent on racial justice and the sustainability, and when we're silent on issues that matter, people will fill in the gaps themselves to say, and most likely negatively. So first, before we get into what you've been doing at Anaplan, why is this so important in today's times and in the talent marketplace? So first, the talent marketplace is very competitive, and I think if you don't demonstrate your support for diversity inclusion, then those great talent, those candidates will go somewhere else, they'll pass you by. And so that's one. And I think, you know, going back to the conversation around having an organizational character and being standing up and making sure that you take a stand within the communities, having a much more broader, diverse, inclusive environment is the right thing within your community, within your ecosystem. And I think I think you know, as organizations take positions, they allow the employees or even those candidates that are attracted to make a decision as to whether or not they join or not. And I think when you do, you're more likely to have a group of individuals want to sign on and be part of that, rather than join an organization that really doesn't have a say one way or the other, which I think is a big difference from where things may have been, you know, ten or twenty years ago. I really liked the courage in the stands we're talking about, Frank, and I really really admire it, which is another reason that I wanted to have you on the show. I applaud what you're talking about it, and of course I endorse it, so right there with you. So one of the things that you also talk about is that when you you shared in the book that when you entered the company on CEO in twenty seventeen that the culture was considered man a plan. I thought that was quite an interesting term. Help us understand what to identify it and what you knew you had to address and why. So I think that it was interesting because it took a while, and I heard it once or twice, and I heard it more pervasive coming from women that they felt that they didn't feel like they had a seat at the table. That's kind of the words that were used. And after I heard it, I tried to step back and see if I could observe it, and I did, and so I felt that it definitely was not the right thing to do for the organization, but I also felt that the women really didn't have a chance to really participate and provide their best selves into whatever the projects that we were working on, whatever, some of the things that we had to do on behalf of our customers, and so we were missing out, we were missing out on their insights, on their ability to really kind of actively participate and make a difference. And so I determined early on that I wanted to change that. And I you know, we started one talking about it, understanding why it happened, and then what we were going to do to make some changes. And I think, you know, stepping up and acknowledging it and then determining that you are going to make a change and measuring yourself to make that change brought about a difference, which is I think we're I mean, we're not perfect, but we're so much better today than where we were a couple of years ago. And we'll continue on that journey going forward. Another thing that I thought was really interesting about your book, I just was imagine what them must have been like when you were going through the interview process and you were hearing that here the plan has an incredible product, A large green fill of opportunity, loads of potential. But what you began to really notice in those conversations is its culture and character were not well developed. Must have been so interesting for you with all that experience to look at that and go, I know, I can make a difference here. So at least it's true. I think part of it occurred there was a leadership void before I joined. There was a gap between the previous CEO of myself, and so I think when there's a gap with leadership, things happened in an organization. So I just put that out there. But I also saw as I started to get into it, and I saw the product capabilities, and I was really that's what it enamored me with joining the company. And then I heard how our customers were so enthusiastic about the product, and I felt that if our employees were as excited, think about what that could really do. I mean, that could be the icing on the cake really to kind of really make this. And so and then going back to previous experience at IBM or Cisco or red Hat and those strong organizations, those strong cultures that I was, you know, part of I felt that I could really we not me, but we could also make a big difference in anaplan, and so we made that a core just like our strategy was important and the different business initiatives. We made culture a core foundation of who we were and how we started that was really to identify values that were meaningful to the members of the organization. And the way we did that was not for me to decide what those values are or the leadership team, but to have it be kind of a grassroots and invite those in the organization to participate. We had sixty seven percent of the population global population volunteer to participate in certain work groups workshops because they wanted to have a say in what those values were. And then, you know, it took longer because there was more people involved, but it was well worth it because people bought into what those values were and they felt themselves owning it and then wanting to behave and live those values every day. It's very powerful. I do that kind of work with clients as well, So when I read that part of your book, I just thought that was incredibly powerful. So and then you go on to another another interesting point here that I thought was interesting when you were talking about how I didn't know if you meant this as what you do at Aniplan or just in general. But speaking back on evaluating issues, you share that you and your team take a three part working framework approach to helping them segment their approach to macro issues. I'd love to hear you share more about that particular framework and how you got to it. Sure. I mean it's it's, you know, three steps simple. First, decide to take a position. And you know, those positions could be on things internal to Aniplan that may not be directly related to our business, or it could be taking a position on something within our community and really kind of making sure that we stood behind that. I mean this again the last fifteen months with all the social unrest, you know, taking a position on the George Floyd murder at the time, while over a year ago, and what that really meant to and a planners, but also what it meant externally. Second step is create an agenda. Right when you take that position, what's your plan of action? What are we going to do in the organization, what motions do we want to follow, and what outcomes do we want? And then third, it's really the activism. It's it's it's to make a financial commitment. Right, if you decide you're going to take a position and you have that agenda, what are you going to put behind that agenda to make sure it plays itself through? So a financial investment, certain metrics, goals, whatever you were going to commit to to make sure that you're going to be successful. You know, you just now mention this in the conversation, Frank, and I'm pretty sure if my memory s we right, you do mention in the book too, what position did you take on the George George Florid Ludo murder. Excuse me, you know it's you know again, I think that situation and everything else around that, around Black Lives Matter that occurred over the last fifteen months had much a greater impact, not just on black employees, but I think on all employees because I think it forced everyone to step back and really look at what is, what is right, what's not, and also to understand and appreciate how black people felt around that. And so one of the things that we did, which which you know, I just reflected on this recently because we had, you know, the one year anniversary, we had an open conversation with the entire company on that one year anniversary, and I reflected back a year ago and one of the things that we did is I held an open forum without Black and Floyd's I think it was like a week or two after the George Floyd situation in Minneapolis, and all I did was listen. I listened to them all talk about their life experiences as a black person and through that lens and for me, that was very moving and and and it forced me to do nothing but listen. And as a result, I think I was I got I was a better person, I was a better leader. I understood where they were coming from. And from that, we've developed some initiatives around that within and a plan and within the community that I think, you know, we're continuing to work on. Right, as I said, nothing's perfect, but we were working on that and it's making I think for myself and I think even at the one year anniversary, based on what I heard from our eployees, you know, we're starting to make a difference. I'm glad you try them with those Frank, It's it's really important to see how a CEO takes a stance on that. And back to the whole company character and the leader of character. I was just really pleased with the way that you've described your actions. And then of course we're going to tell we're going to share more stories in the next segment about how others have taken action. But it's just so important. So and then to that end, the last thing I wanted to cover in this particular segment is that you say that organizations that have upstanding character have four characteristics embedded in their DNA. What are they? Yes, so again simple statements, but I think they're very meaningful. First, is they operate with a larger purpose and even just kind of what you're talking about. You and I had this conversation recently about purpose, right, Yeah, absolutely, people people want to belong to something where they can understand and appreciate what that purpose is all about, right, so they can relate. That's number one. Second, as I mentioned before, that the organization is values led, right, what are those values that are important for the people in the organization and what are the right behaviors that help support those values. The third is to follow through on the convictions. What convictions you have, You're not just going to put them on a wall and walk away and then revisit a year from now. You're going to put them up there and you're going to you're going to live by them and help you know that, have them help make some of your decisions and take some of those actions. And then fourth is you know, I think again I can relate back to this last fifteen months. They have to answer the call and challenging times, because that's when when you have a challenging situation, you're being forced to react. And if if you have that that purpose, that character, those values, it's going to help guide you in those challenging times really to make the best decision beautiful and just all you bought altogether beautifully there. Now, with that, let's take our last break. I'm Elise Cortez, your host. We get on the air with Frank Caloroni, who's the chief executive officer at Anaplan and the chairman of the company's board of directors. We've been talking about some of the things that he and his team have done at Anna Plan to address culture and character. After the Rake, we're going to talk about a few examples of what upstanding company character really looks like when it's taken in action. Stay with us, We'll be right back, doctor Release Cortez is a management consultant specializing in meaning and purpose and inspirational speaker and author. She helps companies visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite a Lease to speak to your organization, please visit her at a Lease Cortez dot com. Let's talk about how to get your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose with doctor Elise Cortez. To reach our program today or open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Elise ali se at Elise Cortez dot com. Now back to working on Purpose. Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to working on purpose if you're just joining us. My guest today is from San Francisco, Frank Calderoni. He's the chief executive officer of n plan In, the chairman of the company's board of directors. He's also the author of Upstanding, How Company character catalyzes loyalty, fagility and Hypergrowth. I'm your host, doctor Leise Cortez. So before we get at this next segment here, Frank, I want to embarrass you. And I want to tell you that I read in your book that she wanted to be a journalist when we first set out in from college, and you became one. And so it's just your book is really beautifully written, and I hope that causes you to blush just a little bit. But I thought that was kind of a fun little thing how it all sort of came back. It was. So this is when I went to college New York City. I worked for a radio station by the university, and it was a great experience. I became a reporter for a while, I became a disc jockey. Some of the things that you know, I had some fantasies about I got a chance to try for a couple of years. Get it out of my system. But it was a great way to meet a lot of people within the university, but also within New York City because I got a chance to meet with politicians and things like that. So a great experience. Yeah, found a fantastic way to start. I couldn't help but bringing it up and celebrating that. So for this last segment, I do want to share a few of the really amazing examples that you talked about in your book about company character in action. But before we do that, I also really want to call it something that you do that I see very few other leaders do, and that is your commentary on the way forward involves a two way street between companies and employees, and we sell them here a call for employees to take responsibility for their necessary role and the way forward. So it's and what I want to say about that is it is really important to hear a lot about Akash. You know, companies and leaders have got to create a great company culture where employees want to come to work and be engaged. And there's another party in this in this role here, So will you say more about that two way street and really meaning more of the perspective what's on the employees. So at least again the success comes from that two way street, right, you know, expecting for employees to sit back and expect the leaders to answer or address all of the requests that employees have doesn't it's not really fair. I mean, yes, leaders have to provide that framework. They've got to provide you know, some of the structure as far as the vision, the strategy, the set up for the culture. But the two way street is that employees also have to take an active role in that right because they have to live it. They have to also help evolve what that culture is or what that character of the organization is, and so they have to hold themselves accountable as well. And you know that plays out in so many different ways. I know from an anaplan standpoint, like even when you think about diversity and inclusion and taking stands or developing action plans, it's not for just myself and the leadership team to work on, but we have you know, employee resource groups that are focused on you know, black lives matter, or focused on various types of diversity so that we can help together work on an agenda. So I think it goes all around the organization for it to be successful. No, I agree. And of course another reason that I like that, Frank, is that I think it's really important. And of course a lot of what do I do is empowerment, and so I want each individual employee to also feel empowered to do something about this, to manage their own career, to be part of the solution going forward, and to contribute their voice. So that's part of the reason I wanted to celebrate that that comment that you that you put in your book. It's beautiful. So now we've got we have to get to chapter seven. So chapter seven, you say, you identify then the chapter what I woul considered to be the critical orienting compass of your whole entire book. And this is from my vantage point, of course, And you say, if you do nothing else, your call to action is to identify the environmental, social, or governance issues that will test your company character. Yeah, very critical, because how you face them will affect your immediate and long term reputation. Right, and so that's a big part of character. You must decide whether those positions will be active or passive. So that's a decision you're making right there, and then taking action as needed. Right, if you're going to be active, what is that action that you're going to take? And I think you know goes back to sitting on the sidelines is no longer acceptive acceptable If you ignore that call, you're you're taking, You're taking that risk, you're deciding that you're not going to take an action, and then you could be held out by your employees, by your customers, by your community for maybe not taking you know, a position or taking an action. So I think again, and not to say I'm not here saying that you need to take on everything, because then you know too much and then nothing gets done. But selecting what you want to take on, how are you going to prioritize that, what actions are going to take, and then the support you're going to have within your organization and your community to make that progress is going to be important. Agree. So I also really appreciate the more active stance and that there's agency and what you're talking about, and I really celebrate that as well. And so to bring this now homes we've been talking about why is this important and how you've been going about this, I want to I want to share. Have you share a few examples that you gave from the book that really I think illustrate just how powerful it is when when company character is activated and I forget the word that you used, it's not activated, it's what do you call it when you bring it out? Not unleashed? Remember it? But anyway, So the first thing I want to call out, which is I didn't know this, but you share in the book the example of Coca Cola and this position it took in January nineteen sixty five, when Atlanta was trying to determine how to celebrate doctor Martin Luther King's Nobel Prize win. So I didn't know anything about this. This is a great story, So will you set the stage for us as to what happened and why Coca Cola stand was so critical? Sure, as I was researching the book, I tried to get some examples that were just out there that I felt were relevant to the topic, but also even some of my own experiences or peers or folks that I've worked with over the years. But in this one in particular that you called out, you know, Coca Cola's chairman at the time, that was Jake Paul Austin took a stand back in nineteen sixty five when there was planned to party to celebrate, as you said, doctor Martin Luther King's Nobel Prize, and he assembled a group of business elite and he said, you know, it's embarrassing for Coca Cola to be located in the city that refuses to honor its Nobel Prize winner, right, so where are He basically said that, hey, we're an international company, and the Coca Cola Company does not need Atlanta. You all have to decide whether Atlanta needs the Coca Cola company. And as a result of just putting that out there and forcing that conversation in his speech, fifteen hundred people immediately bought tickets to the dinner celebration. So you know, putting that out there caused a reaction, and in this case, people rose to the occasion, which which I think was important. Well, and I think, if that's not leadership, gosh, I don't know what is right. And so let me make sure that I specify this for our listeners and our viewers. So before that the Coca Cola CEO made that statement, no one had bought a ticket. If I remember writing your book, not a single person had boughty a ticket. So for him then to give that very short, eloquent direct speech is I think a great example of company character in action. Wasn't really the difference that it can make. So a beautiful example. And then you go on and talk about companies how they can position themselves in response to other social issue use and your example of the response Cisco had to Proposition eight in California, which is the one where a marriage is legal only between a man and a woman, was incredibly notable and you were actually, I think quite proud of the way that they addressed that. So can you set the stage for that? What was going on and what did they how did they respond in position themselves? So this this goes back to like a personal situation, right. So this was back in three thousand and eight. I was one of the leaders that was part of Cisco at the time, and the Marriage Protection Act was actually out there and the bill gains some national attention, so it wasn't just within California. So I was the CFO and we debated this this taking a position. This is the leadership team within Cisco, you know, were for it? Who was against it? Do we not say anything? What are the pros and cons? Huge discussion, right, and everything came back to what was going to happen if we did take a position either of those positions, and what the impact would be to Cisco and whether it would damage Cisco's reputation. But in the end, after that active dialogue, you know, we stood up for what we believed in and we said that we don't support Proposition eight as a company. And I remember, you know in the book I talked about I had a conversation with with Sue Bostrom, and Sue was our chief marketing officer at the time, and she she you know, recollected this story and she and I were there at the same time, so we kind of reconciled as far as how that was. But however, despite our support, the bill did pass with fifty two percent approval, but as you know, eventually it was overturned. But we felt from a Cisco leadership standpoint, that we stood up for what we believed in, and we felt, even especially now, that we made the right decision and that others in the organization respected us at the time for stepping up and taking that position, and as a result, Cisco as an organization was not damaged with the position that we took. And I don't remember the language exactly, but I of course have it in the copious notes that I take, and I offer to share them with your team if they wanted to see them. But but what I think I remember about what what the what the position or the statement was was something about, you know what, we we support people loving whoever they choose, or you know, love is an important thing. It's an important part of life, and who you choose shouldn't be so important or something like that. So what I what I liked was you. It seemed to me that the statement that you issued was elevated above the whole question. You were still celebrating love and connection and finding somebody important to spend your life with and celebrating that, but which still allowed you to make a make a position and put forth a stance with without really getting involved in the messiness of the politics and the actual discussion. You were you were you elevated above that as far as I could tell. You said that, So well, yes, yes, okay, good, Well that's how it landed for me. Frank, That's exactly how it landed for me. I thought it was elegant. And again I so so appreciate that now we're getting real here, this is a real conversation. We're not, you know, staying safely on the sidelines and hoping that well the whole big dark cloud will pass. We are getting involved. And I think that's why your book is so powerful and so timely, so thrilled that I could to celebrate this and share you with my listeners and viewers. So let's talk about one more example that I thought was really really incredible. You talk about the story of the NBA's response to the HB two bill, that's the bathroom bill, and with regard to hosting an All State game in Charlotte, So you tell us about that one. So this was back in several years ago, right North Carolina state legislature and the governor passed a bill that made it illegal for anyone to use a bathroom that didn't match the gender on their birth certificate. And as you recall, there was so much controversy, not only in North Caroline, but really across the United States, and it was, you know, an issue that really took on a tremendous amount of a political heat from that perspective. And I remember, and I did talk with the former Chief people Officer of the NBA who recalled this because he was part of the organization at the time that in twenty seventeen, the NBA All Star Game was scheduled to be held in Charlotte. However, given the bill was inconsistent with how the NBA values were stated, they voiced disagreement publicly, and they also took a strong position and they moved the game. And this shows the character of the organization taking a strong position understanding that they was financial implications associated, but they moved the game from Charlotte as a result of that. And again, you know, I think they took the decision and they supported it as a leadership team, and in my mind, I think this was a great example of an organization demonstrating strong character. Yeah, and so this goes back to if you listen, listeners and viewers to my tagline for the show, that's very intentional that I really am out to help curate a conversation that allows us to create workplaces where people thrive, where inspirational leaders bring us to our greatness, and we do business that betters the world. And so very much appreciate this whole role that you're spearheading here, Frank, this notion that company character really does make a difference in the world. It's it's important. I love how you use the word ecosystem because of course that's the stakeholder community, and so to be able to really lift the whole community that it touches is so beautiful. So we have just a little bit more time before we'll ask you the last close question. I want to just let you just share whatever you think is important with regard to what we've been talking about around company culture and excuse me, company character. That is important that we haven't gotten to yet before I bring us to a close. So I think again reflecting back on my various experiences at different organizations, and I have to say that I keep putting this out there because I don't know it all and I haven't done everything right all the time. But you know, you learn from sometimes your mistakes or some of the situations that you're part of, and that's what it's all about, right, And so I have learned, and I do have a sense of conviction behind you know, encouraging all leaders to really spend the time sometimes, you know. I think in the past, the whole topic of culture, the whole topic of character for an organization was looked at as somewhat fluff or something nice to have. Well, we'll get to it when, you know, and we don't spend as much time. And I think that time is really long gone. And I think our society in general is requiring all of us, as individuals and as organizations to step up and really take a stand on having a set of values, having a purpose, having a character standing behind it with a sense of conviction and I think that's going to make a big difference going forward. And I think we're starting to see that shift in the right direction, and the more emphasis and having this conversation with your self a leaf, but also with your audience and having others other leaders acknowledge that there is value and it will result in improved performance. Improved results is extremely powerful. I think it is. And you also mentioned something else that's really important for us to call out. You're really quick, and that is this notion that when we really are authentic about our values and what we stand for and we speak to them, what's going to happen is we are going to lose some people and we're going to gain others. And the people that we lose we probably don't want to hang out with anyway, and the people that we gain are probably going to be stronger supporters. You give a great example in the book of even how Jeff Bezos spoke up about I think it was black lives Black Lives Matter, and he got some pushback from there was something on the front page of Amazon about we support black lives or something, and he got a lot of very very vitriolic emails about that, and and he said, well, you know, if that is an appealing to you, then maybe you're not my customer and I'd be okay losing you basically something along those lines. You know, every and I see this, even with an antaplan, every issue you take on, you're not going to make everyone happy, right right, And it's not possible. I should you right right, But but but you got it. You gotta. If you don't try and you don't take on nothing, nothing moves forward right from that, and you don't have the advancement. So you know, I'll just give an example today as we're speaking. We have these regular sessions within Antaplan. I call him Frank answers questions I took about in the book, where it's an open forum on a topic, or it could just be wide open and we allow everyone in the organization to ask questions and I answer them. Today, what I tried to do is I focused and I did on gender pay parody, big focus item across all organizations. But we we This goes back to the question you were asking about Manaplan. I took this on a couple of years ago and I said, one of the ways of addressing this whole gender issue was to kind of look at pay pay for performance and make sure it has parody. Right. I signed up for Paradigm for parody. It's a CEO organization to get CEOs to acknowledge support around that. We talked about it today. We had we had some good exchange, We showed data as far as the progress we've made. We had an active discussion. I think people felt good about just the transparency the openness that we felt. It was a topic for discussion among all both men and women as well as even other types of diverse groups that want us to elevate some other issues. That's amazing, Frank, A great way to finish the show as well. We are really close to out of time, but I want to give you a chance to close as you like, saying, in about thirty seconds, what will you have to lave listeners with? Again, just strongly encourage spend the time as a leader with your company's character. Engage the organization, make them feel part of it, align it to a purpose, let them participate in creating what values they can resonate with behaviors, and then make sure you live by those values and it will evolve. I mean again, nothing stays constant, so you have to always understand and appreciate that those values will evolve, the behaviors will evolve. But providing that guidance in that direction allows employees to have a sense of belonging and as a result, they're going to do their best job for you. Beautiful way to finish, Frank. I'm so very very happy and privileged to have you on the show and share you. I love the book as you know, and I'm happy to get the word out here about it. So thank you very much for joining me as a guest in sharing your heart and your soul. Thank you Lease joined the conversation. Yeah you too, Listeners and viewers. If you want to learn more about Frank Calderoni or Anna Plan, you can start by going to Upstanding character dot com. That's where you'll learn more about the book. Again, upstanding character dot com. You can also go to the company website and aplan dot com. That's a nap la n dot com. I also did discover and this will probably also embarrass you. Frank also has a Wikipedia page if you want to go there. So that's pretty amazing. Thanks again to our partnering sponsor work Proud, which helps companies build a platform where your workforce receives meaningful feedback and thanks for their work from people across your company. Last week, if you missed the live show, you can always catch it recording to podcast. We were on the air with Sean Harvey, who's the Chief Compassion Officer at the Semiponia Institute. Were talking about the work he does. Help me to a thums compassion into hypermasculine cultures and work environments. Next week will be on the air with Bob Graham, the founder of Nama State Direct, a nonprofit organization that supports women business owners in Guatemala with micro loans and business education to lift them from poverty and allow them to thrive. See you there. Remember that works at least a third of a life. So let's work on Purpose. We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortez, each week on the Voice America Empowerment Channel. Together, we'll create a world where business operates conscientiously, leadership inspires impassioned performance, and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning and purpose they crave. See you there, Let's work on purpose. What you