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The topics and opinions express in the following show are
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solely those of the hosts and their guests, and not
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What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the
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answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose
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at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their
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lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization
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that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their
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highest potential. Business can be such a force for good
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in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide
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guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we
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all want working on Purpose. Now here's your host, doctor
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Elise Cortes.
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Welcome back to the Working and Purpose Program, which has
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been brought to you with passion and pride since February
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of twenty fifteenth. Exture tuning again this week. Great to
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have you. I'm your host, Doctor Release Cortes. If we've
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not met before and you don't know me, I'm an
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organizational psychologist and lag with therapist, speaker and author. My
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team and I at gusto Now help companies to enlive
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and then fortify their operations by building a culture and
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leadership activated by meaning and purpose. Our mission is to
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help clients create a destination workplace where people flocked to join,
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are intrinsically motivated to perform at their best, can grow
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into their fuller potential, and are committed to stay in
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an an deliver on their company's mission, which translates to
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higher profits for you. You learn more about us and how
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we can work together at gustodashnow dot com or my
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personal website at Leisecortes dot com. Getting in today's program
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we have with us today, Doctor Carlsure. He's the Professor
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of Strategic Management and director of the Chair of the
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Chair Management by Missions and Corporate Governance at University that
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journas Now. He's the founder of DPMC, provider of strategy
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and change management services for companies such as Coca Cola,
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Sony Camper, Repsol, and Bristol Myers Squib. He is co
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author of Management by Missions, published in six languages, editor
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of the open access book Purpose Driven Organizations, Management Ideas
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for a Better World, and other books and articles in
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leading journals like Long Range Planning and Journal of Business Ethics.
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Today we're talking about his work and researching purpose driven organizations.
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He joins us today from Barcelona, Spain. Carlos A hearty
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welcome to Working on Purpose.
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Hello, thank you very much.
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It's so wonderful to cross paths with you, Carlos. I
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love what you're doing. I want to drink it up
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and be a part of it, so I really want to.
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I'm looking forward to sharing it with our listeners and
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viewers today.
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Thank you very much. It was really looking forward to
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have this conversation with you, and also the things about
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these things about purposon I'm talking.
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Mm hmm.
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Well, let's just sitch week for our listeners and viewers
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who haven't been drinking, you know, from the firehose of
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your LinkedIn articles and from your books, et cetera. Let's
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just start with what you're pouring yourself into today. So
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let's just situate where are you putting your heart and
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soul these days? What do you want to.
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Well, you know, I think for many years I've been
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working and purpose. I've done many things, as you said,
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a couple of books. Also, my PhD dissertation was about purpose,
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realizational corporate purpose. Also I've been working with more than
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two hundred companies today. But really now what I am
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really a concern is how to connect your the personal
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purpose of people with a company purpose. I think this
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is a challenge. This is a challenge for many companies
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because now really it's not only to define the purpose
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in the corporate purpose for a company, but also the
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question is how do you really connect the personal purpose
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of your people with a corporate purpose. And this is
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probably the thing I am more working on for the
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last three four years. I will say.
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It's the life one. We're going to die a little
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bit more deeper into that as we go. I think
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that's amazing. One of the many things that I see
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you really leading the field with is that's one of them.
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The other one, of course, is the measuring, which we'll
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get to in just a second. But I am interested.
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I know I found myself in the purpose space because
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my dissertation was around studying meaning and working identity. So
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I had the meaning stuff which botanly led me into
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the purpose camp. But I'm interested in learning when and
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how did you discover the opportunity and the need for
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organizations to operate from purpose.
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Well, when I discovered, really good question, I would think
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it was not an academy. Indeed, it was research. It
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was volunteering. Yeah, I was voll with Mother Teresa, you
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know Indian Mother Teresa from Kalkatats.
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I remember this in your book, Yes, well.
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I mentioned this in the Yes, in the A pillar
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of the book, you know, So I there is where
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I discovered Mother Teresa was alive at that time. And
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I was working in a house that was called Caligat
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for infirmed people that were living on the streets. And
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there there was a house that we were taking care
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of forty people that they were close to die. And
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I remember the day when I arrived. One of the
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nuns told me, hey, you know this guy, this a
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Hindu guy, and he has been living probably all his
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life in the street and you are going to take
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care of him. And I was feeding him every morning.
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Then I was giving some pills watching him. Also, I
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learned from Hindu poems and learn to Hindu songs and
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and and really I discovered meaning, this is a purpose.
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Those days were very meaningful days for me. And it happened,
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but it was going to happen. This guy died in
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my arms, and then all the purpose went on, all
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the things, all the I was thinking, wow, what is
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And I remember the following day I went to busy
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mother Terisa, and we had a conversation. I was very
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upset that really Ann also thinking about everything would happened
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the day before this guy. And we was telling to
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mother Test what is the meaning of all this? And
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what is the meaning of all this? We how many
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people we are taking care in this house just forty
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We have hundreds of people dying on the streets every
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day here in calcut in the world alone. And ver
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Test was listening to me. When I finished, she said, look, Carlos,
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put love in everything you do, because what counts, what
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really counts, it's not how much you do, but how
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much love you put in the Do you know for me?
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That day I will tell you I really discover what
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purpose means, because really, I said, way, now I understand
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why I was so happy and why that house was
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so purposeful and it was full of purpose. Why because
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the important thing was not how much you feed the people,
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or how many songs you said, or the poems or
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the time you spend with them. The really the important
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thing was the love we were putting all those things.
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And this is where I where I discovered the importance
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of purpose for an organization. And I think this counts
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or if you're volunteering, but also it comes if you're
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in a factory, in a banking, a distribution, in a hospital.
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I mean, this is the big discovery I met. And
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to be honest, for twenty five years now, since then,
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I've been doing just one thing, just bringing this message
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to companies. And I think purpose is a very good channel,
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a very good concept to give this meaning to the
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work that you were doing. The relevant thing. The important
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thing is not how much you do, but how much
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enough you put in the doing.
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What a beautiful story, Carlos, What a great way to
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open our conversation for our listeners and viewers. And I
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would say one thing to what you just shared, and
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that is, of course you know what I whole thing
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about purposes. It's ultimately always about serving, serving and helping.
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But I love how you've now injected the word love
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in there. And I'm increasingly finding that that little four
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letter word is finding its way into more conversations around
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business than I've ever noticed it before, and I take
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that as a good sign.
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Yes, absolutely, you know, this is something I love to
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talk about love in business, and I think it's something
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not only love, but also friendship. It is a very
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important word. This is something very important world. We need
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to use friendship, this is compassion, all these things, communion.
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I think all these words we need spirituality to incorporate
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as well into business because business is human, so we
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cannot detach all these things from business. And purpose is
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a good way to discover this, you, because you know,
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when we talk about purpose, then all these things make
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more sense. Purpose is bringing is not. And I like
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Simon Sinek, for example, he says, it's not what you do,
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is why you do it. But when you talk about
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this why you're doing the things, then love is there.
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It's so beautiful, Yes, and it's so I think it's
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purpose is a very good way to connect with all
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these human basic things.
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Pretty much a lot of the work that I'm doing
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too chology. To me, it just makes intimate sense, right,
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immediate and intimate sense. But it seems that we need
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to do a little bit more persuading that of some
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other folks that haven't quite gotten on the same BANDWAGONES yet,
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which is why we're doing the work that we're doing.
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And one of the things that I think can really
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help that initiative is what you're doing, which is how
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we originally met on LinkedIn. I was so intrigued to
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learn about your measure to Improve initiative? Can you share
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more about how did that come about? What are you
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trying to accomplish?
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Yeah, thank you, well, yes, I love this one displayed
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and it's very connected with the what I mentioned before,
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the personal connection, the personal connection with the employees with
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the company. Yeah. And you know when companies have a purpose,
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then normally they measure it or they're trying to find
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a way to ask the different stakeholders. They ask the clients,
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or they ask a society. You have different certifications like
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bi Corps or you have also some other companies that
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can certify ESG certification. But in thing we have missed
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something that is very important is the voice of employees.
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And it's fundamental. I mean, employees is the main stap
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holder that participate on the purpose. So really and I
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think we want really to have purpose and to measure purpose.
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The first one you need to ask is your employees.
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And this is what we want to achieve with this movement.
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We've been doing this for many years not we develop
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in our research, grow different scales to measure purpose and
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to give boys to the employees. And then after some
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years we say, hey, why not to create a movement
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that we are going to encourage companies to do it
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and to help companies to make this measurement and to
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give boys to the employees so that the employees can
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that Okay, my company, in the company I'm working for.
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Purpose really is something that is alive. It's not just
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the sentence on the website or is something for proper relationships.
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It's something that is connecting with me. I see also
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the management is consistent with it, and also my colleagues.
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This is what we are. We are mentioning and the
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objective is giving boys, giving voice to the employees.
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I think that's incredible. Carlos and I certainly know of
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of the big corpor certifications in the esgy stuff that
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you talked about before, but beyond that, I personally have
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not accounted very many companies that lease in the United
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States that are really measuring purpose the way that you're
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putting forth, which is why I'm so excited about this.
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And I think it will really help excuse me, really
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help us maybe help more people get on the bandwagon
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who think it's a little bit too fluffy. So you
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have a three D index and purpose, so I think
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it's just very potent and size and maybe you can
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cover that next.
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Yes, this is well. We had at the beginning, we
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developed setting scales with more than one hundred measures, not
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then we validated forty eight and then it was okay
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with this with this survey is we can measure many
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aspects of purpose. But then one of the companies we
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are working here from a big company here in Spain and
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other companies, they said to us, we'll like to have
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an index like the net Promoted score, that is asking
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do you do you would like to recommend the companies,
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We would like to have one for measuring purpose. I said, wow,
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this is very good, I mean, and we started developing
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with this company and another sixty companies research and then
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we fail, I will say, because we were not able
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to find just one question, and you know, purposes something
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that at least you need three questions, three questions, and
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this is a and then so will reduce the forty