July 29, 2025

Pushing Limits, Crossing Lines: Doping, Pressure and the Morality of Performance

Pushing Limits, Crossing Lines: Doping, Pressure and the Morality of Performance
iHeartRadio podcast player iconSpotify podcast player iconAmazon Music podcast player iconAudible podcast player iconPandora podcast player iconApple Podcasts podcast player iconPodchaser podcast player iconDeezer podcast player iconAudacy podcast player iconYoutube Music podcast player iconSpreaker podcast player iconPodcast Addict podcast player iconCastbox podcast player iconJioSaavn podcast player iconCastamatic podcast player iconCastro podcast player iconFountain podcast player iconGoodpods podcast player iconOvercast podcast player iconPlayerFM podcast player iconPocketCasts podcast player iconPodimo podcast player iconPodurama podcast player iconPodverse podcast player iconPodyssey podcast player iconYouTube podcast player iconRSS Feed podcast player icon
iHeartRadio podcast player iconSpotify podcast player iconAmazon Music podcast player iconAudible podcast player iconPandora podcast player iconApple Podcasts podcast player iconPodchaser podcast player iconDeezer podcast player iconAudacy podcast player iconYoutube Music podcast player iconSpreaker podcast player iconPodcast Addict podcast player iconCastbox podcast player iconJioSaavn podcast player iconCastamatic podcast player iconCastro podcast player iconFountain podcast player iconGoodpods podcast player iconOvercast podcast player iconPlayerFM podcast player iconPocketCasts podcast player iconPodimo podcast player iconPodurama podcast player iconPodverse podcast player iconPodyssey podcast player iconYouTube podcast player iconRSS Feed podcast player icon

Doping scandals in sports often spotlight the athlete—but what about the coaches, sponsors, and systems that silently endorse the chase for results? From competitive cycling to corporate boardrooms, performance expert Alexander Hutchison shines a light on how pressure for results can lead individuals and institutions to quietly bend the rules. He unpacks the complex dynamics behind doping and challenges us to rethink how we define fairness, success, and accountability in competitive environments

Working on Purpose is broadcast live Tuesdays at 6PM ET and Music on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Working on Purpose is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).

Working on Purpose Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/working-on-purpose--2643411/support.

WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:02.439
The topics and opinions express in the following show are

2
00:00:02.439 --> 00:00:04.080
solely those of the hosts and their guests and not

3
00:00:04.120 --> 00:00:07.000
those of W FOURCY Radio. It's employees are affiliates. We

4
00:00:07.080 --> 00:00:10.160
make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show programs, services,

5
00:00:10.199 --> 00:00:12.519
or products mentioned on air or on our web. No

6
00:00:12.640 --> 00:00:15.519
liability explicit or implies shall be extended to W FOURCY

7
00:00:15.640 --> 00:00:18.320
Radio or it's employees are affiliates. Any questions or comments

8
00:00:18.359 --> 00:00:20.559
should be directed to those show hosts. Thank you for

9
00:00:20.640 --> 00:00:25.559
choosing W FOURCY Radio.

10
00:00:28.280 --> 00:00:31.679
What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the

11
00:00:31.719 --> 00:00:34.880
answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose

12
00:00:34.920 --> 00:00:38.280
at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their

13
00:00:38.320 --> 00:00:41.679
lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization

14
00:00:41.759 --> 00:00:44.479
that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their

15
00:00:44.560 --> 00:00:47.600
highest potential. Business can be such a force for good

16
00:00:47.640 --> 00:00:51.280
in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide

17
00:00:51.280 --> 00:00:54.320
guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we

18
00:00:54.359 --> 00:00:58.679
all want Working on Purpose. Now, here's your host, doctor

19
00:00:58.679 --> 00:00:59.799
Elise Cortez.

20
00:01:05.480 --> 00:01:07.439
Welcome back to the Working on Purpose program, which has

21
00:01:07.480 --> 00:01:09.439
been brought to you with passion and pride since February

22
00:01:09.480 --> 00:01:11.959
of twenty fifteen. Thanks for tuning again this week. Great

23
00:01:11.959 --> 00:01:14.640
to have you. I'm your host, doctor Elie Cortes. If

24
00:01:14.680 --> 00:01:16.519
we've not met before, you don't know me. I'm a

25
00:01:16.560 --> 00:01:21.879
workforce advisor, organizational psychologist, management consultant, logo therapist, speaker and author.

26
00:01:22.319 --> 00:01:24.239
My team and I at gusta Now help companies to

27
00:01:24.359 --> 00:01:27.280
enliven and fortify their operations by building a dynamic, high

28
00:01:27.319 --> 00:01:30.959
per performance culture, inspirational leadership, and nurturing managers that are

29
00:01:30.959 --> 00:01:34.400
activated by meaning and purpose. Many organizations are not aware

30
00:01:34.400 --> 00:01:36.599
of just how critical it is to invest in developing

31
00:01:36.599 --> 00:01:39.319
their leaders and managers not just for their own affectiveness,

32
00:01:39.359 --> 00:01:42.079
but also to avoid burnout and keep them fulfilled. And

33
00:01:42.120 --> 00:01:45.439
also that they can also measure and monitor the purpose

34
00:01:45.519 --> 00:01:47.760
experience in their organization to keep it working as an

35
00:01:47.799 --> 00:01:52.040
operational imperative. It's amazing stuff. You'll learn more about how

36
00:01:52.040 --> 00:01:54.719
we can work together at Eliscortes dot com my personal

37
00:01:54.760 --> 00:01:59.640
site orgustodashnow dot com. Getting into today's program, we have

38
00:01:59.719 --> 00:02:03.280
what is Doctor Alexander Hutchison. He's a fitness and wellness

39
00:02:03.280 --> 00:02:06.120
expert based in Dallas. He is an athlete and coach

40
00:02:06.159 --> 00:02:10.080
and he Urgest, PhD. In exercise physiology. Professionally, he serves

41
00:02:10.120 --> 00:02:13.639
as editor in chief of Current Protocols, a leading journal

42
00:02:13.639 --> 00:02:15.680
in the life sciences, and he's the author of four

43
00:02:15.680 --> 00:02:20.400
different books. They are Exercise Ain't Enough Hit Honey, The HASDA,

44
00:02:20.840 --> 00:02:23.680
The Swim Prescription, and the one we're talking about today

45
00:02:23.719 --> 00:02:27.479
in Defensive Doping. He also has out an unfair advantage

46
00:02:27.479 --> 00:02:31.280
in sports, the Body Matters. Doctor Hutchinson is passionate about

47
00:02:31.360 --> 00:02:37.479
making complex scientific concepts accessible and engaging for his students, athletes,

48
00:02:37.479 --> 00:02:40.240
and readers. We're talking today about some of his ideas

49
00:02:40.240 --> 00:02:43.759
from his book and Defensive Doping, and will situate why

50
00:02:43.879 --> 00:02:48.479
athletes are motivated to take performance enhancing drugs, how use is,

51
00:02:48.520 --> 00:02:52.039
how their use is handled in and penalized across various sports,

52
00:02:52.439 --> 00:02:55.039
Then how they play out in academia and music, and

53
00:02:55.120 --> 00:02:58.919
finally how they drive to direct the draftic perform and

54
00:02:58.960 --> 00:03:03.879
achieve high results underlies performance issues and ethical matters in

55
00:03:03.960 --> 00:03:07.840
business today. Very very interesting threads here today. He joined

56
00:03:07.879 --> 00:03:10.120
today from Salt Lake City, where he's traveling for business.

57
00:03:10.120 --> 00:03:12.680
Doctor Hudgerson A. Harty, Welcome to Working on Purpose.

58
00:03:13.520 --> 00:03:15.360
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to

59
00:03:15.400 --> 00:03:15.759
be here.

60
00:03:16.439 --> 00:03:19.639
Yeah, I'm delighted that you come on. And then I

61
00:03:19.680 --> 00:03:21.439
want to share the story of how we met. And

62
00:03:21.479 --> 00:03:23.319
this is a book that, of course we'll be talking

63
00:03:23.319 --> 00:03:26.879
about in defense of doping. So, ladies and gents, both

64
00:03:26.919 --> 00:03:28.479
of us live here in the Dallas area and we

65
00:03:28.520 --> 00:03:31.560
look close to this amazing perk and body of water

66
00:03:31.599 --> 00:03:33.560
called White Rock Lake. And we were out running on

67
00:03:33.599 --> 00:03:36.240
a Tuesday, as I often do, and he was mining

68
00:03:36.280 --> 00:03:38.240
his own business at the water fountain, and I think

69
00:03:38.280 --> 00:03:40.400
I probably said something to him, and he of course

70
00:03:40.439 --> 00:03:44.000
engaged me in conversation. He said something about his work,

71
00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:46.599
you know, being a publisher and an editor and where

72
00:03:46.599 --> 00:03:47.960
he worked, and I said, oh my gosh, I have

73
00:03:48.039 --> 00:03:51.759
so many people, so many guests on my podcast, you know,

74
00:03:52.240 --> 00:03:54.439
who published through you. And he said I should come

75
00:03:54.439 --> 00:03:57.280
on your podcast as well. So that is how we met.

76
00:03:57.680 --> 00:04:01.000
And I have got to tell you, Alexander, I really

77
00:04:01.080 --> 00:04:04.759
really was rocked by your book. It is a damn

78
00:04:04.800 --> 00:04:07.680
good book, and I'm convinced of your case. And so

79
00:04:07.960 --> 00:04:11.719
let's take it, Brianna Usher and our listeners and viewers

80
00:04:11.759 --> 00:04:14.800
into I think a really, really needy and really important

81
00:04:14.840 --> 00:04:18.319
topic that I think is not understood at all. But

82
00:04:18.439 --> 00:04:21.199
let's first do this, just because my listeners and viewers

83
00:04:21.199 --> 00:04:23.079
haven't met you yet or read your book the way

84
00:04:23.079 --> 00:04:24.879
that I have. If you could just describe a little

85
00:04:24.879 --> 00:04:27.480
bit your early career as a professor as a coach,

86
00:04:27.600 --> 00:04:30.480
and I know you credit your sports for teaching you

87
00:04:30.600 --> 00:04:34.519
lessons about teamwork and merit and resilience and the acceptance

88
00:04:34.519 --> 00:04:37.079
of failure as a prerequisite for success, which I think

89
00:04:37.199 --> 00:04:40.000
is astounding and pretty profound. So if you could just

90
00:04:40.120 --> 00:04:42.480
kind of sketch a bit so people understand the path

91
00:04:42.519 --> 00:04:43.959
you've taken to get to where you are now.

92
00:04:44.759 --> 00:04:47.439
Sure, So, I was a collegiate swimmer at the University

93
00:04:47.480 --> 00:04:52.279
of Sound in Tacoma, Washington. I got a significant scholarship

94
00:04:52.279 --> 00:04:53.920
to go there, quite a full ride, but enough that

95
00:04:53.959 --> 00:04:55.360
it made it so I could leave Houston and go

96
00:04:55.439 --> 00:04:58.480
up to the Pacific Northwest in the early nineties. We

97
00:04:58.519 --> 00:05:01.040
won two national titles my last two years that I

98
00:05:01.079 --> 00:05:03.000
was there, and then I continued some for another two

99
00:05:03.079 --> 00:05:07.720
or three years thereafter. Eventually, well, I knew when I

100
00:05:07.759 --> 00:05:09.240
was in college that one of the things that I

101
00:05:09.279 --> 00:05:11.920
would like to be was a college home coach, and

102
00:05:11.959 --> 00:05:13.439
I was told over and over again, if you want

103
00:05:13.439 --> 00:05:14.480
to do that, you're going to have to get a

104
00:05:14.519 --> 00:05:16.959
master's degree. So in ninety nine I went back to

105
00:05:17.079 --> 00:05:20.279
school to get my master's degree, and that's really where

106
00:05:20.399 --> 00:05:23.480
I started to see. You know, Lance Armstrong in particular,

107
00:05:23.600 --> 00:05:27.040
took over the Twitter frances that particular year, and it

108
00:05:27.079 --> 00:05:28.800
wasn't until several years later, when I was doing my

109
00:05:28.839 --> 00:05:31.879
PAHD that I became convinced that he was doping. But

110
00:05:33.040 --> 00:05:36.079
in that transition, I was a lot like most of

111
00:05:36.120 --> 00:05:38.360
the fans who were out there, who at the time

112
00:05:38.399 --> 00:05:40.560
were in complete disbelief that he could ever do such

113
00:05:40.600 --> 00:05:44.319
a thing, and then was just like them when I

114
00:05:44.319 --> 00:05:49.360
wanted him banned forever. But then over time, when you

115
00:05:49.399 --> 00:05:53.120
get a chance to compete in some other sports Olympic weightlifting,

116
00:05:53.519 --> 00:05:55.959
boxing in particular was one that I did for quite

117
00:05:55.959 --> 00:05:57.480
some time, that I got beat up a lot. I

118
00:05:57.519 --> 00:06:01.160
mean you just do when boxing, and just also just

119
00:06:01.199 --> 00:06:03.199
getting older in sports. You know, as I started to

120
00:06:03.199 --> 00:06:06.199
puach my fortieth birthday, which was eleven years ago, you

121
00:06:06.279 --> 00:06:08.480
start to get these nagging injuries. And one of the

122
00:06:08.519 --> 00:06:11.240
things that really helps or cortisone injections and some other

123
00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:13.079
drugs that you can take just to get you back

124
00:06:13.079 --> 00:06:15.959
on the field. So a lot of the judgments that

125
00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:20.199
I had about doping has been absolutely awful, and cheating

126
00:06:20.199 --> 00:06:22.240
in a shortcut and all these things. As you start

127
00:06:22.279 --> 00:06:25.519
to educate yourself within your PhD program exercise physiology, you

128
00:06:25.560 --> 00:06:28.040
get one sense of it in terms of science, but

129
00:06:28.079 --> 00:06:29.560
then on the other end of it you get the

130
00:06:29.600 --> 00:06:32.360
sense of some amount of empathy in terms of what

131
00:06:32.439 --> 00:06:35.800
it means, particularly if that is your profession and not

132
00:06:35.879 --> 00:06:38.720
just a hobby that you're doing. On the side, a

133
00:06:38.839 --> 00:06:42.240
lot of the folks who are in sports are not multimillionaires.

134
00:06:42.480 --> 00:06:46.079
They have mortgaged their entire lives to be in that

135
00:06:46.120 --> 00:06:49.279
particular sport, and if the nagging injury comes along, they're

136
00:06:49.360 --> 00:06:51.519
left with a choice of doing something that could be

137
00:06:51.600 --> 00:06:55.560
considered unethical or hanging it up for the day. And

138
00:06:55.600 --> 00:06:57.560
if it's a once every four year opportunity to go

139
00:06:57.560 --> 00:06:59.199
to the Olympics, I'm not sure how many people would

140
00:06:59.199 --> 00:07:03.600
actually honestly that I was a professor for a number

141
00:07:03.639 --> 00:07:06.079
of years at three different institutions and was very happy

142
00:07:06.079 --> 00:07:08.800
in that role. My wife always paid more money than

143
00:07:08.800 --> 00:07:12.360
I did, and so her job took us from San Antonio,

144
00:07:12.360 --> 00:07:15.399
where I was a department chair and associate professor to Dallas,

145
00:07:15.439 --> 00:07:18.600
and I spent one last semester at NT, but that

146
00:07:18.720 --> 00:07:22.279
commute was brutal, and I did not like the demotion

147
00:07:22.439 --> 00:07:24.759
down to assistant professor again. So I took a job

148
00:07:25.480 --> 00:07:27.759
in publishing, doing stuff that I've been doing for free

149
00:07:27.839 --> 00:07:29.600
for many years, and now I worked for Wiley, and

150
00:07:29.600 --> 00:07:31.079
I have for the last three and a half years,

151
00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:33.959
and as you said, i'm editor in chief of Current Protocols.

152
00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:37.160
So it's been a progressive, long journey up to this point.

153
00:07:38.199 --> 00:07:42.399
And most of my initial work was just delineating the

154
00:07:42.560 --> 00:07:45.439
science of sports for people to understand in a way

155
00:07:45.519 --> 00:07:48.360
that was more palatable than if you were to read

156
00:07:48.399 --> 00:07:52.399
a sign strum. But then you know, I also I

157
00:07:52.439 --> 00:07:54.959
wanted to do something that's necessarily easier for the sake

158
00:07:55.000 --> 00:07:56.680
of it, but because I had these thoughts. So that's

159
00:07:56.720 --> 00:07:59.319
why In Defensive Doping came out. And then my most

160
00:07:59.319 --> 00:08:02.639
recent book, An Unfair Advantage, which is about the science

161
00:08:02.680 --> 00:08:05.560
or trans women and sport, and it is not a

162
00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:08.160
book about bigotry or hatred or anything like that at all.

163
00:08:09.000 --> 00:08:11.240
But I invite everybody to read the books and let

164
00:08:11.240 --> 00:08:11.959
me know what you think.

165
00:08:13.240 --> 00:08:17.199
Well, Alexander, like I said, you really really got smacked me.

166
00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:20.160
I was one of those people. I'm sitting on the

167
00:08:20.160 --> 00:08:22.920
sidelines judging about the whole drugging thing, and you really

168
00:08:22.959 --> 00:08:27.519
did enroll me into your central thesis of your book.

169
00:08:27.600 --> 00:08:29.680
So let's talk about why you wrote the book and

170
00:08:29.720 --> 00:08:32.000
what it is you're trying to convey.

171
00:08:33.159 --> 00:08:38.639
Sure, so it's important that people who are sports fans

172
00:08:39.159 --> 00:08:42.320
have a sense as to what these drugs are, what

173
00:08:42.399 --> 00:08:45.360
they do, why people take them, and what are the

174
00:08:45.360 --> 00:08:52.559
potential motivations behind cheating. You know, it's only cheating because

175
00:08:52.559 --> 00:08:55.039
the people who run the sports say it is. If

176
00:08:55.039 --> 00:08:57.440
those rules change tomorrow, then it won't be cheating anymore.

177
00:08:58.360 --> 00:09:00.320
You know, a number of these different drug us and

178
00:09:00.320 --> 00:09:02.960
practices have been around for many, many years, and they

179
00:09:02.960 --> 00:09:06.519
were not made illegal until relatively recently within the history

180
00:09:06.559 --> 00:09:09.080
of sports. Now, the one that I focused on the

181
00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:12.879
most in the book and just in general is road cycling.

182
00:09:12.879 --> 00:09:15.559
So the Twitter Fronts just finished Sunday. I watch it

183
00:09:15.600 --> 00:09:21.480
religiously every single year. But that particular sport has a long,

184
00:09:21.720 --> 00:09:24.720
dark history of doping that dates all the way back

185
00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:26.919
to the very first Twitter Fronts in nineteen oh three.

186
00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:31.559
Back then, people would take these horrible concoctions. They would

187
00:09:31.600 --> 00:09:34.200
take heroin, they would take opium, they would take mostly

188
00:09:34.240 --> 00:09:36.519
brandy and wine would be that the lower end things.

189
00:09:36.759 --> 00:09:39.159
But they would take stryccht nine, something that we typically

190
00:09:39.200 --> 00:09:43.399
associate with being a poison because it's remarkable stimulator of

191
00:09:43.519 --> 00:09:47.120
muscle contractions. So imagine that you want to win so

192
00:09:47.320 --> 00:09:50.399
badly that you were willing to drink what is poison

193
00:09:50.519 --> 00:09:52.519
in order to actually have an opportunity to win. So

194
00:09:52.559 --> 00:09:55.320
that gives you a sense. It's to the mindset of

195
00:09:55.399 --> 00:09:58.320
people who are competing in these particular races, and when

196
00:09:58.360 --> 00:10:00.919
you think of their alternatives, and know, pre World War

197
00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:05.360
One France, there weren't a lot. You could try this

198
00:10:05.440 --> 00:10:08.559
and make a fortune and and establish yourself and your

199
00:10:08.559 --> 00:10:11.279
family for years to come, or you can go work

200
00:10:11.279 --> 00:10:13.440
in a foundry or a factory or a farm and

201
00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:17.559
and you know, basically have a subsistence existence. For some people,

202
00:10:17.559 --> 00:10:19.840
they're fine with that. For others, no, they want more,

203
00:10:19.960 --> 00:10:21.960
and they're willing to do just about whatever it takes

204
00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:24.799
to get to that next level, particularly if it's only

205
00:10:24.919 --> 00:10:27.720
about doing something to their own bodies, because that's their

206
00:10:27.840 --> 00:10:32.120
choice to do obviously. So the reason for writing the

207
00:10:32.120 --> 00:10:34.919
book is is you know, hearing these same tropes time

208
00:10:34.960 --> 00:10:38.200
and time again, taking steroids is a shortcut, that's that

209
00:10:38.320 --> 00:10:44.000
is a complete misconception, if anything, taking taking steroids is

210
00:10:44.039 --> 00:10:46.399
the long way to go because it allows you to

211
00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:49.960
train harder and longer than you could if you didn't

212
00:10:49.960 --> 00:10:52.759
take them. So you're not just sitting on the couch

213
00:10:52.799 --> 00:10:55.960
with two beers and injecting yourself with testosterone and then

214
00:10:55.960 --> 00:10:59.159
becoming a star athlete. You have to obviously do the

215
00:10:59.200 --> 00:11:01.200
training that comes along with it, and you can do

216
00:11:01.279 --> 00:11:04.200
more training if you do these particular drugs, and that's

217
00:11:04.240 --> 00:11:07.480
the primary reason that people take these things. So hearing

218
00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:10.039
that time and time again, you wanted to just say, well,

219
00:11:10.039 --> 00:11:11.639
wait a minute, let me let me just explain a

220
00:11:11.639 --> 00:11:14.360
few things to you, and then you add into that

221
00:11:14.440 --> 00:11:15.960
and I'm sure we'll talk about this in a minute.

222
00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:18.679
When you really look at society, the vast majority of us,

223
00:11:18.679 --> 00:11:20.440
maybe not all, but the vast majority of us are

224
00:11:20.480 --> 00:11:24.279
taking some drug as a pharmaceutical or an illicit drug

225
00:11:24.639 --> 00:11:28.480
that's serving the purpose to enhance our performance in something

226
00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:31.799
in our lives. And when you think of it that way,

227
00:11:31.960 --> 00:11:34.279
then a lot of this comes down to a level

228
00:11:34.279 --> 00:11:37.679
of hypocrisy that people just can't reconcile if they're unless

229
00:11:37.679 --> 00:11:39.320
they're being truly honest with themselves.

230
00:11:40.240 --> 00:11:43.159
So beautifully explained, and that's another thing that I really

231
00:11:43.559 --> 00:11:46.639
liked by Book one. It is damn well written, of course,

232
00:11:46.720 --> 00:11:49.639
and it's also very entertaining. I am not a sports

233
00:11:49.679 --> 00:11:52.200
not Alexander. I don't watch sports. I don't follow sports.

234
00:11:52.240 --> 00:11:54.919
I'm lucky if I know what season goes with the

235
00:11:55.000 --> 00:11:58.720
right sport, honestly, I am, but I got I learned

236
00:11:58.720 --> 00:12:02.279
so much about sports and how you taught. You taught

237
00:12:02.320 --> 00:12:04.320
about the different sports and how drugs are used in

238
00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:07.159
them and also punished with them within them, which is really, really,

239
00:12:07.240 --> 00:12:11.159
really interesting. And I think what's also interesting too is

240
00:12:11.240 --> 00:12:15.080
I appreciate your empathy to understand these humans and why

241
00:12:15.120 --> 00:12:18.039
they're taking these drugs, and you help us understand, which

242
00:12:18.080 --> 00:12:21.519
we'll leave throughout this conversation that part of the problem

243
00:12:21.559 --> 00:12:24.159
in all this whole thing is that the only person

244
00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:27.559
that's held accountable for the use of these drugs is

245
00:12:27.600 --> 00:12:31.360
the athlete, not the owner organizations that own the clubs,

246
00:12:32.360 --> 00:12:36.600
or the sponsors or whatever. The only one that gets

247
00:12:36.639 --> 00:12:40.399
punished is the athlete. So that accountability needs to be

248
00:12:40.519 --> 00:12:42.440
really examined, and I want to make sure that that

249
00:12:42.559 --> 00:12:44.759
is heard by you listeners and viewers. This is such

250
00:12:44.759 --> 00:12:46.039
an important part of your point.

251
00:12:47.600 --> 00:12:51.000
That's correct. So when we look at that, and I'll

252
00:12:51.000 --> 00:12:52.600
give you we can go to the toor of fronts.

253
00:12:52.600 --> 00:12:55.200
But let me go over to baseball real quick. In

254
00:12:55.279 --> 00:12:58.440
nineteen ninety four, there was a work stoppage that led

255
00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:01.279
to the cancelation of the World Series for that year,

256
00:13:02.039 --> 00:13:04.399
and when they finally came back several games into the

257
00:13:04.440 --> 00:13:08.600
ninety five season, attendance was way down because the baseball

258
00:13:08.679 --> 00:13:12.000
had thoroughly upset the fan base, who was not interested

259
00:13:12.039 --> 00:13:15.559
in hearing about an argument between millionaires and billionaires. They

260
00:13:15.559 --> 00:13:18.960
just wanted to see the great American pastime and attendant

261
00:13:19.039 --> 00:13:21.879
stayed down until nineteen ninety eight, and that was the

262
00:13:21.919 --> 00:13:24.679
summer that Mark McGuire and Sammusosa had this home run

263
00:13:24.759 --> 00:13:28.159
race to try to beat Roger Morris's record of sixty

264
00:13:28.159 --> 00:13:32.480
one home runs. Now, it's remarkably unusual to have two

265
00:13:32.519 --> 00:13:35.320
different athletes at the same time going for the same record,

266
00:13:35.480 --> 00:13:38.799
and in nineteen ninety eight, actually there were three because

267
00:13:39.320 --> 00:13:41.759
the Quen Griffy Junior started off the season pretty hot,

268
00:13:41.759 --> 00:13:44.679
although he faded away about midway through. But you have

269
00:13:44.759 --> 00:13:47.279
these two athletes that are in the same division with

270
00:13:47.399 --> 00:13:50.440
two very old teams, the Cubs for Sammussa and the

271
00:13:50.480 --> 00:13:55.000
Saint Louis Cardinals for Mark McGuire, same division, and you

272
00:13:55.039 --> 00:13:57.679
know they're going tit for tat back and forth, you know,

273
00:13:57.720 --> 00:14:00.960
getting close to breaking this record, and then it comes

274
00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:03.480
down to basically a four game where it was a

275
00:14:03.519 --> 00:14:08.080
three game series in Saint Louis between the Cubs and

276
00:14:08.279 --> 00:14:11.080
the Cardinals that you could not script this any better.

277
00:14:12.240 --> 00:14:15.559
And then finally, obviously Mark McGuire broke the record, but

278
00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:18.399
then the race wasn't even over. It continued on to

279
00:14:18.440 --> 00:14:20.000
the end of the season because there were still seventeen

280
00:14:20.080 --> 00:14:22.480
games left and then they ended up at seventy and

281
00:14:22.519 --> 00:14:25.919
sixty six home runs with McGuire and so so respectively.

282
00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:29.960
And in addition to that, you had you had Roger

283
00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:33.039
Marris's family that was at that final game where the

284
00:14:33.080 --> 00:14:35.320
record was finally broken. They were all brought out under

285
00:14:35.320 --> 00:14:37.240
the field to celebrate in kind with the rest of

286
00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:40.240
the people who were present. So it was this amazing

287
00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:44.200
crescendo of sports lore that happened in this one go

288
00:14:44.399 --> 00:14:47.960
and that it really saved baseball. It truly did, and

289
00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:51.919
then five years later we have congressional hearings, and then

290
00:14:51.919 --> 00:14:53.879
again in two thousand and five, in two thousand and

291
00:14:53.919 --> 00:14:57.519
three and five that basically just tore all of that

292
00:14:57.639 --> 00:15:00.320
and threw it under the bus and ruined it forever. Now,

293
00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:04.559
there's no possible way that the administration of Baseball didn't know.

294
00:15:04.600 --> 00:15:06.799
Whether Bud Seeley wants to admit it or not, that's

295
00:15:06.840 --> 00:15:09.279
a different story. There's no way that they should have

296
00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:13.200
not possibly known. It's not possible. If anything, you can

297
00:15:13.240 --> 00:15:15.080
look at the number of home runs that were being hit,

298
00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:18.360
and it was significantly higher than it had ever been before.

299
00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:20.960
So there's one thing. And then the simplest thing of

300
00:15:21.000 --> 00:15:23.759
all is just to look at the players themselves. Now,

301
00:15:23.799 --> 00:15:26.480
Sammy Suis has started his career as a string being

302
00:15:26.679 --> 00:15:30.360
and then he exploded into this massive person. Mark McGraw

303
00:15:30.440 --> 00:15:33.080
was always a big boy, but not like he turned

304
00:15:33.080 --> 00:15:35.320
out to be later in his career when he was juiced.

305
00:15:35.759 --> 00:15:37.159
So all you had to do was just pass the

306
00:15:37.240 --> 00:15:39.440
simple eye test to see that and know for sure

307
00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:44.440
that something is not quite right here. And the claim

308
00:15:44.519 --> 00:15:46.720
for Major League Baseball is we had no idea because

309
00:15:46.759 --> 00:15:50.519
no one ever told us. Everybody and their dog knew

310
00:15:50.559 --> 00:15:52.440
about this, and these two were obviously not the only

311
00:15:52.480 --> 00:15:54.919
folks who were doing it. But the point being that

312
00:15:55.039 --> 00:15:59.480
under these circumstances, the fans were somewhat upset. For whatever reason,

313
00:15:59.559 --> 00:16:02.159
Congress decided that they had to protect the children from

314
00:16:02.240 --> 00:16:04.879
the potential of using steroids, which I get into in

315
00:16:04.919 --> 00:16:08.399
the book, And so they had these hearings, and then

316
00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:10.919
we had all these players who were basically banned for

317
00:16:10.960 --> 00:16:13.600
life and will never be in the Baseball Players Hall

318
00:16:13.600 --> 00:16:18.200
of Fame. And for what I mean, what exactly I mean?

319
00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:20.519
So you took these guys who you should have known

320
00:16:20.879 --> 00:16:23.919
Wick Nudge Nudge were taking steroids. You look the other

321
00:16:23.960 --> 00:16:26.320
way as they saved your bacon and the entirety of

322
00:16:26.360 --> 00:16:28.240
the sport of baseball. And then as soon as the

323
00:16:28.279 --> 00:16:30.840
minute came that you had to do something to save

324
00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:33.639
your own skin. I'm talking about baseball, they just tossed

325
00:16:33.679 --> 00:16:36.320
them out with the garbage. This has happened time and

326
00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:38.480
time again. The same thing happened with Lance Armstrong and

327
00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:41.039
the Tour de Fronts in nineteen ninety eight, the same

328
00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:43.440
year that Sei Sosi mark where we're doing their thing.

329
00:16:43.759 --> 00:16:46.720
We had the Fastina scandal in the Tour de France,

330
00:16:47.159 --> 00:16:50.279
which was effectively the Fastina team was the number one

331
00:16:50.320 --> 00:16:53.080
team in the world at the time, and one of

332
00:16:53.120 --> 00:16:55.919
their workers, one of their messuses, was pulled over at

333
00:16:55.919 --> 00:17:00.000
the French Belgian border a typical traffic check. His vehicle

334
00:17:00.320 --> 00:17:04.359
was chocolate blocked, full of steroids and other illegal drugs

335
00:17:04.400 --> 00:17:06.039
that were purchased illegally and we're going to be used,

336
00:17:06.039 --> 00:17:08.880
obviously by the team. So the Fastina team was pulled out,

337
00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:11.599
several of the teams pulled out. The tour almost canceled

338
00:17:11.640 --> 00:17:14.880
that particular year, and so you're looking at this and

339
00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:17.559
they called that, you know, the Race of Misery or

340
00:17:17.559 --> 00:17:20.160
whatever I think it was actually called. The next year

341
00:17:20.200 --> 00:17:22.079
is when Lance Armstrong shows up coming back from his

342
00:17:22.119 --> 00:17:26.240
testicular cancer, almost dies and here he comes and he

343
00:17:26.279 --> 00:17:28.039
wins the Tour de Fronts out of nowhere. So this

344
00:17:28.160 --> 00:17:32.000
was called the Race of Redemption, and he saved the

345
00:17:32.039 --> 00:17:34.880
Tour de Fronts. It may have continued on, but it

346
00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:37.279
certainly would not be the event that it is today.

347
00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:41.240
Yeah, I again, go ahead, go ahead, We got to

348
00:17:41.240 --> 00:17:44.640
take a quick break here. But I love your passion.

349
00:17:44.759 --> 00:17:46.799
And by the way, ladies and gents. It shows up

350
00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:48.960
in the book just like that. It's just the same

351
00:17:49.079 --> 00:17:50.640
voice in the books. So you're do love reading this.

352
00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:54.640
Hold that thought right back. I'm your host, Doctor Release Cortes.

353
00:17:54.680 --> 00:17:56.799
We were on the air with doctor Alexander Hutchison. He's

354
00:17:56.799 --> 00:17:59.440
a fitness and wellness expert based in Dallas who is

355
00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:01.920
also an ounce lead and a coach. Professionally, he serves

356
00:18:01.960 --> 00:18:05.000
as editor in chief of Current Protocols, a leading journal

357
00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:08.440
in the life sciences. We've been talking about the motivations

358
00:18:08.440 --> 00:18:12.119
behind why professional athletes are motivated to take performance enhancing

359
00:18:12.200 --> 00:18:15.240
drugs and some of the accountability and issues related to it.

360
00:18:15.559 --> 00:18:17.000
After the roy We're going to talk a little bit

361
00:18:17.000 --> 00:18:20.000
about how drug use shows up and is punished in

362
00:18:20.079 --> 00:18:21.960
different sports. We'll be right back.

363
00:18:37.599 --> 00:18:41.119
Doctor Elise Cortez is a management consultant specializing in meaning

364
00:18:41.160 --> 00:18:45.000
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies

365
00:18:45.079 --> 00:18:48.359
visioneer for a greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose

366
00:18:48.440 --> 00:18:52.799
inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance,

367
00:18:52.839 --> 00:18:55.880
and commitment within the workforce. To learn more, or to

368
00:18:55.920 --> 00:18:58.839
invite at least to speak to your organization, please visit

369
00:18:58.880 --> 00:19:01.799
her at a lease Corte dot com. Let's talk about

370
00:19:01.799 --> 00:19:10.119
how to get your employees working on purpose. This is

371
00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:13.440
working on Purpose with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our

372
00:19:13.480 --> 00:19:16.559
program today or to open a conversation with Elise, send

373
00:19:16.599 --> 00:19:22.279
an email to Elise Alisee at Elisecortes dot com. Now

374
00:19:22.519 --> 00:19:24.119
back to working on Purpose.

375
00:19:29.160 --> 00:19:30.920
Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to working

376
00:19:30.920 --> 00:19:33.759
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Release Cortes, as I'm

377
00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:36.400
dedicated to help them create a world where organizations thrive

378
00:19:36.440 --> 00:19:39.240
because their people thrive. They're led by inspirational leaders that

379
00:19:39.319 --> 00:19:41.640
help them find and contribute their greatness. And we do

380
00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:43.759
business at Betters in the world. I keep researching and

381
00:19:43.759 --> 00:19:45.839
writing my own books, so one of the least one

382
00:19:45.960 --> 00:19:49.039
that came out is called The Great Revitalization. How activity

383
00:19:49.119 --> 00:19:52.200
median purpose can radically enliven your business and order to

384
00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:56.200
help leaders understand today's discerning and diverse workforce. What do

385
00:19:56.240 --> 00:19:59.279
they want from you to give their best performance? Engage

386
00:19:59.319 --> 00:20:02.359
our talents, and then I provide twenty two best projectses

387
00:20:02.440 --> 00:20:05.160
you can fold into your operations to provide that for them.

388
00:20:05.559 --> 00:20:07.640
You can find my books on Amazon or my personal

389
00:20:07.720 --> 00:20:10.680
site at least courtest dot com if you are just

390
00:20:10.759 --> 00:20:14.279
now tuning in. My guest is Alexander Hutchison, PhD, author

391
00:20:14.319 --> 00:20:18.279
of four books Exercise Ain't Enough, Hit Honey, the HASDA,

392
00:20:18.680 --> 00:20:21.920
the Swim Prescription in Defense of doping, and an unfair

393
00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:25.640
advantaged in Sports, The Body Matters. So you were situating

394
00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:28.160
before we went on break. Of course, you know how

395
00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:33.880
baseball was saved by the two baseball players Sosa and Maguire,

396
00:20:34.119 --> 00:20:36.559
And then of course how Armstrong is really credited to

397
00:20:36.559 --> 00:20:41.839
really saving and advancing and greatly popularizing cycling. Before we

398
00:20:41.880 --> 00:20:45.079
get into a little bit more about how drug use

399
00:20:45.079 --> 00:20:47.839
shows up in these different sports. One thing I want

400
00:20:47.880 --> 00:20:49.759
to bring home that you've been saying that we haven't

401
00:20:49.759 --> 00:20:51.920
said it outright yet, and I think it's important to

402
00:20:51.920 --> 00:20:54.799
say you say in the book. The take home message

403
00:20:54.799 --> 00:20:58.160
just that sports are anything but inherently fair because they

404
00:20:58.200 --> 00:21:01.480
are created by and for humans who are innately wired

405
00:21:01.519 --> 00:21:04.559
to be unfair. The negative impact that money has on

406
00:21:04.599 --> 00:21:09.279
sports far outweighs any potential threat posed by performance enhancing drugs,

407
00:21:09.519 --> 00:21:12.400
in my opinion, is one of the biggest motivations to dope.

408
00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:15.079
So we have the money piece, ladies and gents, is

409
00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:18.200
really important to get your head around here. Did you

410
00:21:18.200 --> 00:21:21.079
want to say anything else about we're going to talk about,

411
00:21:21.160 --> 00:21:23.559
you know, of course cycling first here, Did you want

412
00:21:23.599 --> 00:21:26.000
to say anything else about what you're situating about the

413
00:21:26.039 --> 00:21:29.279
tour before we go on and talk more about cycling, just.

414
00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:32.160
At one point that you know, obviously Armstrong has been

415
00:21:32.240 --> 00:21:35.720
banned for life. It is since the time that he

416
00:21:35.799 --> 00:21:39.440
came forward on OPRAH to talk about is doping, which

417
00:21:39.480 --> 00:21:43.400
was twenty ten or actually twenty twelve. There's been a

418
00:21:43.480 --> 00:21:45.680
number of other cycles who are contemporary to Lance Armstrong

419
00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:47.440
who has since come forward and explained that they too

420
00:21:47.480 --> 00:21:50.319
have doped. They have not been banned for life. So

421
00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:52.720
it was basically judged that it was so egregious what

422
00:21:52.839 --> 00:21:54.960
he did. And I do think the things that he

423
00:21:55.000 --> 00:21:59.920
did to cover up his misgivings or his mis behavior

424
00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:03.480
were awful, but I don't think that it was justifiable

425
00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:06.200
to actually kick him out of forever. So for the

426
00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:08.799
seven years that he won the tour to fronts, there's nothing,

427
00:22:09.680 --> 00:22:11.880
there's no one listed as the winner because they know

428
00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:14.440
that they can't elevate anyone up to that position who

429
00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:19.400
wasn't doping to so again it's that sense of unfairness

430
00:22:19.400 --> 00:22:21.279
with the way that the rules are adjudicated that I

431
00:22:21.319 --> 00:22:22.240
find most offensive.

432
00:22:23.720 --> 00:22:26.400
So what's also fascinating to me is one you go

433
00:22:26.440 --> 00:22:28.480
through and explain all the different kinds of drugs that

434
00:22:28.519 --> 00:22:31.559
are used in sports to enhance performance, which is also

435
00:22:31.720 --> 00:22:35.319
just fascinating, but then also how they're used differently by

436
00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:38.759
the different sports. Like, for example, I learned, if I

437
00:22:38.799 --> 00:22:40.759
have this right, that in cycling a lot of the

438
00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:44.480
drugs are used for recovery purposes because it's such an

439
00:22:44.480 --> 00:22:47.359
acutely endurance sport, right. And the other thing that I

440
00:22:47.400 --> 00:22:50.480
want to situate around that too, that as we talk

441
00:22:50.519 --> 00:22:53.039
about how drug use is different in each of these sports,

442
00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:56.000
is you do situate in the book how part of

443
00:22:56.000 --> 00:22:59.160
the contribution to maybe people drugging or doping as much

444
00:22:59.160 --> 00:23:02.319
as they are is that the organizers are making the

445
00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:06.200
course is extremely difficult. And yes, that means that more

446
00:23:06.519 --> 00:23:09.039
you get more viewers on TV watching it. You know.

447
00:23:09.319 --> 00:23:11.799
Then the climbs are interesting. You talk about the increased

448
00:23:11.799 --> 00:23:14.559
climb scores that are going up that cake. What's going on?

449
00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:18.279
So say a little bit about how drugs show up,

450
00:23:18.279 --> 00:23:20.839
what's the motivation to use drugs in cycling? And how

451
00:23:20.920 --> 00:23:23.279
people are punished for using them.

452
00:23:23.880 --> 00:23:28.279
So initially the reason to use drugs was not necessarily

453
00:23:28.359 --> 00:23:33.319
to write faster. The original sort of frants, there were

454
00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:36.720
like five or six stages, and they would go for

455
00:23:37.240 --> 00:23:38.759
twenty four to forty eight hours and then they would

456
00:23:38.759 --> 00:23:40.359
stop at the next place. They were about three hundred

457
00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:42.319
miles long each as they would go, so they're rinning

458
00:23:42.319 --> 00:23:45.400
through the day, they're riding through the night on gravel tracks.

459
00:23:46.200 --> 00:23:49.200
Fans are throwing out tax and nails to puncture their

460
00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:53.119
wheels so that they can help their the athlete that

461
00:23:53.119 --> 00:23:56.039
they would prefer to win. I mean, it's a crazy

462
00:23:56.079 --> 00:23:58.319
thing to think about when you're thinking about this. So

463
00:23:58.359 --> 00:24:01.039
if you have athletes that are taking large quantities of

464
00:24:01.079 --> 00:24:03.799
caffeine just to stay awake, they're drinking brandy so that

465
00:24:03.839 --> 00:24:08.839
they can stave off the pain. When amphetamines became available

466
00:24:08.920 --> 00:24:12.200
in the late thirties and after the World War Two,

467
00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:16.039
that would be the drug of choice that's still stuck

468
00:24:16.039 --> 00:24:19.400
around for a very long time. In the sixties and seventies,

469
00:24:19.440 --> 00:24:21.880
and you would switch over to corticosteroids. So cortizone is

470
00:24:21.880 --> 00:24:23.559
another one that people would take to bring down the

471
00:24:23.559 --> 00:24:27.720
inflammation between stages and make you feel somewhat better, and

472
00:24:27.759 --> 00:24:30.480
then eventually testosterone would show up, but you wouldn't take

473
00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:33.160
that like you would consider like a track ethlete would

474
00:24:33.279 --> 00:24:35.599
bulk up. Having a lot of muscle mass on you

475
00:24:35.680 --> 00:24:37.759
is the death no for a cyclist, so they would

476
00:24:37.759 --> 00:24:40.640
take really small dosage of this in the attempt to

477
00:24:40.680 --> 00:24:44.440
try to recover more quickly between stages. And then finally,

478
00:24:44.440 --> 00:24:48.079
the granddaddy of mal is erithropooe. This is a hormone

479
00:24:48.119 --> 00:24:51.160
that we make naturally that induces the production of red

480
00:24:51.160 --> 00:24:54.079
blood sells within our red prone marrow. You'll get this

481
00:24:54.160 --> 00:24:58.359
naturally if you open an altitude. When females menstruate once

482
00:24:58.400 --> 00:24:59.839
a month, at the end of their period, they have

483
00:24:59.880 --> 00:25:01.759
a spike and EPO to get some of the red

484
00:25:01.799 --> 00:25:04.240
bood cells back that they lost during menstruation. If you

485
00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:06.160
have a big bleed or a crush insread, you will

486
00:25:06.200 --> 00:25:09.519
also make EPO in large quantities. Now, what they figured

487
00:25:09.519 --> 00:25:11.240
out is that you can just give yourself an injection

488
00:25:11.400 --> 00:25:13.240
and it would elevate your red blood cells to an

489
00:25:13.319 --> 00:25:15.880
enormously high level. And then you have these gigantic sprinters

490
00:25:15.880 --> 00:25:18.319
who should never be in climbing up mountains fast who

491
00:25:18.359 --> 00:25:21.000
or then climbing up mountains fast. So that was throughout

492
00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:22.960
the entirety of the nineties and in all the time

493
00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:27.240
that Lance Armstrong was writing as well. So again, what

494
00:25:27.680 --> 00:25:30.119
started off as as a way to dull the pain

495
00:25:30.759 --> 00:25:34.400
then very quickly evolved into a way to get an

496
00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:38.440
edge over your competitors. And that's really where it remains today.

497
00:25:38.559 --> 00:25:40.920
Is it is it's a means to an end because

498
00:25:40.920 --> 00:25:41.799
everybody wants to win.

499
00:25:43.319 --> 00:25:45.960
And so the big one that is punished in cycling is.

500
00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:49.680
What Oh, there's there's tons of them that are anything

501
00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:52.000
that you get, it doesn't matter what the drug is,

502
00:25:52.039 --> 00:25:54.839
so there's not varying degrees of severity in terms of

503
00:25:54.839 --> 00:25:57.400
the drugs. Any one of them would get you on

504
00:25:57.440 --> 00:26:01.119
the band list for a specified amount of time. Most

505
00:26:01.160 --> 00:26:03.720
of the time. Now it's four years for a first

506
00:26:03.720 --> 00:26:05.599
defense because what they're trying to do is make you

507
00:26:05.599 --> 00:26:10.160
miss at least one Olympic side. Yeah, you know, we

508
00:26:10.319 --> 00:26:15.640
just had the female marathon runner who popped positive three

509
00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:18.799
weeks ago after setting I believe a world record in

510
00:26:18.799 --> 00:26:22.480
the marathon was taking a diuretic and it's a very

511
00:26:22.519 --> 00:26:27.039
common one, and that is that's not a performance enhancing drug,

512
00:26:27.079 --> 00:26:30.160
but that is is a masking agent, and so obviously

513
00:26:30.200 --> 00:26:33.160
a diuretic makes you pee a lot more and a

514
00:26:33.160 --> 00:26:35.680
lot more frequently. What you're trying to do when you

515
00:26:35.720 --> 00:26:37.519
take a diuretic and you have other drugs in your

516
00:26:37.519 --> 00:26:39.119
system is flush them out before you have to go

517
00:26:39.119 --> 00:26:42.640
and drug test. So that's why folks would take a diuretic. Otherwise,

518
00:26:42.680 --> 00:26:45.400
there's no possible reason why a marathon learner would want

519
00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:47.920
to take a diuretic because she's dehydrate herself. It doesn't

520
00:26:47.920 --> 00:26:52.119
make any sense. So that drug is not enhancing her performance,

521
00:26:52.160 --> 00:26:54.079
it's hiding other drugs that will and it's still going

522
00:26:54.160 --> 00:26:56.480
to get her a four year Bankay gotcha?

523
00:26:56.640 --> 00:26:58.640
Okay. So one of the things I thought was so interesting.

524
00:26:58.640 --> 00:27:01.880
You've helped us understand about how cycling drugs are used

525
00:27:01.920 --> 00:27:04.400
now in baseball. The name of the game is to

526
00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:06.640
add muscle mass, right, so you can hit harder and

527
00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:09.640
further and blast the ball out of the stadium. So

528
00:27:09.839 --> 00:27:11.799
talk a little bit about the kinds of drugs that

529
00:27:11.920 --> 00:27:15.359
baseball players tend to use and the ramifications of those.

530
00:27:16.160 --> 00:27:18.119
So there's going to be two primary ones, and there's

531
00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:21.599
that they're going to be antabolic steroids, So anabolism means

532
00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:25.400
that you're adding stuff to your body, okay, and catabolism

533
00:27:25.400 --> 00:27:27.319
means you're breaking it down. And the combination of the

534
00:27:27.319 --> 00:27:31.000
two of those is your metabolids. So anabolic steroids allow

535
00:27:31.079 --> 00:27:34.519
you to accrete or add on muscle mass. And what

536
00:27:34.599 --> 00:27:36.880
that does is you know, with the swing of the bat,

537
00:27:36.920 --> 00:27:39.119
you're generating more power than you would if you had

538
00:27:39.119 --> 00:27:42.440
smaller muscles. The ball is going to travel further. And

539
00:27:42.519 --> 00:27:44.519
so what you'll hear from people who are not so

540
00:27:44.599 --> 00:27:46.160
much in the nose let's they'll say, well, you know,

541
00:27:46.160 --> 00:27:49.559
it doesn't help the person's reaction time. It's still baseball.

542
00:27:49.599 --> 00:27:51.960
They still have to hit the ball, no question. But

543
00:27:52.079 --> 00:27:54.640
the ball that would have been caught at the warning

544
00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:58.759
track before steroids now it leaves the stadium entirely after steroids.

545
00:27:59.240 --> 00:28:02.079
So obviously there's that part. The other drug that they

546
00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:06.920
will take most frequently is human growth hormone. Now, just

547
00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:09.720
like it sounds, that is a drug that allows you

548
00:28:09.759 --> 00:28:12.640
to add additional mass. But we're not so much in

549
00:28:12.680 --> 00:28:15.440
the muscle into things. Where you see that working is

550
00:28:15.519 --> 00:28:18.400
with the connective tissues. So what I'm talking about there

551
00:28:18.440 --> 00:28:22.400
are tendons which attach muscle to bone and ligaments which

552
00:28:22.440 --> 00:28:27.720
attach to bones together at the joint. Okay, those tissues

553
00:28:28.079 --> 00:28:31.359
have very poor blood flow to them, so when they

554
00:28:31.400 --> 00:28:33.880
get injured, they don't get they don't heal up very quickly.

555
00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:36.000
That most of the time, when one of those gets injured,

556
00:28:36.079 --> 00:28:38.799
it's going to be surgery. So what you see with

557
00:28:38.880 --> 00:28:42.480
steroids is that they make the muscles big fast, and

558
00:28:42.519 --> 00:28:44.640
when the muscles get that big that quickly, they put

559
00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:47.119
an enormous strain on the tendons and ligaments that just

560
00:28:47.160 --> 00:28:50.279
can't keep up, and so you see ruptured tendons all

561
00:28:50.319 --> 00:28:55.839
the time. So HGH does help those connective tissues actually

562
00:28:55.839 --> 00:29:00.880
increase in size and become bigger and stronger. So oftentimes

563
00:29:00.920 --> 00:29:04.519
athletes will take these in conjunctions to to at least

564
00:29:04.519 --> 00:29:08.319
to eliminate the severity of potential injuries down the line.

565
00:29:08.359 --> 00:29:10.039
And a lot of athletes will take it after they've

566
00:29:10.039 --> 00:29:11.400
been injured to try to heal up quicker.

567
00:29:13.279 --> 00:29:16.640
Just it's fascinating, and that question we've now illustrated why

568
00:29:16.680 --> 00:29:19.759
they're so motivated to do that. Now, then let's talk

569
00:29:19.799 --> 00:29:24.160
about tennis. Your example of the twenty twenty two French Open,

570
00:29:24.359 --> 00:29:28.359
when Nadal was an obvious discomfort, and you talked about

571
00:29:28.400 --> 00:29:34.359
how he was able they numbed his foot for what

572
00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:36.400
two weeks or whatever for him to be able to.

573
00:29:36.319 --> 00:29:38.039
Put basically the whole fortnite yep.

574
00:29:38.279 --> 00:29:40.119
And why and so you were put forth in book,

575
00:29:40.119 --> 00:29:42.279
why was he Why didn't he get in trouble for that?

576
00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:47.599
Why was that permisial? It's not the same thing in tennis, it's.

577
00:29:47.440 --> 00:29:50.599
Not so each of the different sports that's the signatory

578
00:29:50.759 --> 00:29:54.079
of the World Anti Doping Agency has some level of

579
00:29:54.160 --> 00:29:55.839
leeway in terms of what they will and will not

580
00:29:55.839 --> 00:29:58.839
publish and what they will and will not allow. There

581
00:29:58.880 --> 00:30:02.160
was no confirmation that Rafael and Aldhal took cortizone, but

582
00:30:02.200 --> 00:30:04.640
no one ever denied it either, So that was one

583
00:30:04.680 --> 00:30:07.559
of the problems I had. The other issue is that

584
00:30:07.799 --> 00:30:11.200
basically he got a lighting cane injection right into the

585
00:30:11.240 --> 00:30:14.400
nerve that is a pain sensor only, so it was

586
00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:18.440
not his muscle stimulating nerve. So he could still obviously

587
00:30:18.519 --> 00:30:20.440
move that foot all over the places he needed to.

588
00:30:21.079 --> 00:30:24.079
But imagine trying to run. If you've ever watched the

589
00:30:24.079 --> 00:30:27.000
French Open, it's played on clay, and so these athletes

590
00:30:27.039 --> 00:30:29.160
that are usually baseline athletes, they run one side they

591
00:30:29.160 --> 00:30:31.319
put their legs their feet planted on the ground and

592
00:30:31.319 --> 00:30:33.240
they slide. They run the other way, put their feet

593
00:30:33.240 --> 00:30:35.559
ground on the slide. So it puts an enormous strain

594
00:30:35.640 --> 00:30:38.440
on the feet in the ankles. And I can't imagine

595
00:30:38.440 --> 00:30:40.200
trying to run. Now I'm not rafaeld at all, but

596
00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:43.400
I can't imagine running, sprinting, stopping, sliding and trying to

597
00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:47.039
hit a tennis ball with my foot completely numb, so

598
00:30:47.160 --> 00:30:49.079
much so that I can't feel it at all, as

599
00:30:49.119 --> 00:30:51.160
though you're getting like a root canal and you can't

600
00:30:51.200 --> 00:30:55.279
speak correctly. And when we're talking about the three primary

601
00:30:55.359 --> 00:30:58.599
rules for why it is that we ban particular substances

602
00:30:58.640 --> 00:31:01.640
or practices, one of them is that it's potentially harmful

603
00:31:01.680 --> 00:31:03.640
to the athlete. Well, I can't think of anything more

604
00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:07.079
potentially harmful than having a completely numb foot for two

605
00:31:07.160 --> 00:31:11.200
straight weeks. But if that's what Nadal wanted to do,

606
00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:13.160
if that was a risk that he was willing to take,

607
00:31:13.680 --> 00:31:15.880
that's none. I'm a business and I don't think it's

608
00:31:15.920 --> 00:31:18.240
a nay of Tennis's business either, So they allowed him

609
00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:20.960
to go forth with it. The point being what's good

610
00:31:21.000 --> 00:31:22.720
for the goose is good for the Gander. If he's

611
00:31:22.720 --> 00:31:24.440
going to be able allowed to do that for two

612
00:31:24.440 --> 00:31:27.480
straight weeks in order to win his twenty fourth major,

613
00:31:27.759 --> 00:31:30.599
and I believe it was his fourteenth French Open, then

614
00:31:30.640 --> 00:31:34.079
why can't cyclists take an injection of courtiz OOnt if

615
00:31:34.079 --> 00:31:36.039
they've had a major fall and they want to get

616
00:31:36.039 --> 00:31:38.640
back on the bike the next day? And I know

617
00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:41.359
the answer already, I'm being rhetorical, but the point being

618
00:31:41.400 --> 00:31:42.640
that if this is going to be something that we're

619
00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:44.839
going to look at is being an apples taples comparison.

620
00:31:45.200 --> 00:31:46.880
All the sports should be treated the same.

621
00:31:47.240 --> 00:31:50.440
Yeah, Alexander, I love your passion. I have learned so

622
00:31:50.519 --> 00:31:52.599
much from you. Let's grab our last break. I'm your host,

623
00:31:52.640 --> 00:31:55.880
doctor Rodie Cortes. We were on air with doctor Alexander Hutchinson.

624
00:31:55.960 --> 00:31:58.680
He's a fitness and wellness expert based in Dallas. Was

625
00:31:58.720 --> 00:32:01.519
also an athlete and coach. H well professionally serves as

626
00:32:01.599 --> 00:32:04.519
editor in chief of Current Protocols, a leading journal in

627
00:32:04.519 --> 00:32:07.720
the life sciences. We've been talking about how drug use

628
00:32:07.839 --> 00:32:11.160
is motivated for use in the various sports and how

629
00:32:11.440 --> 00:32:14.279
they're allowed or penalized. After the break, we're going to

630
00:32:14.279 --> 00:32:18.839
get into how drugs and other means of enhancing performance

631
00:32:18.880 --> 00:32:21.920
show up in academia, music, in the business world. We'll

632
00:32:21.960 --> 00:32:22.519
be right back.

633
00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:41.200
Doctor Elise Court has as a management consultant specializing in

634
00:32:41.279 --> 00:32:44.960
meaning and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps

635
00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:48.440
companies visioneer for a greater purpose among stakeholders and develop

636
00:32:48.480 --> 00:32:52.519
purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment,

637
00:32:52.640 --> 00:32:56.200
performance and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or

638
00:32:56.240 --> 00:32:58.920
to invite a lease to speak to your organization, please

639
00:32:59.000 --> 00:33:02.240
visit her at Elise Cortes dot com. Let's talk about

640
00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:10.559
how to get your employees working on purpose. This is

641
00:33:10.599 --> 00:33:13.880
Working on Purpose with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our

642
00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:17.000
program today or to open a conversation with Elise, send

643
00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:21.440
an email to Elise A. L i Se at Elisecortes

644
00:33:21.480 --> 00:33:24.559
dot com. Now back to working on Purpose.

645
00:33:29.640 --> 00:33:31.359
Thanks for chaining with us, and welcome back to working

646
00:33:31.400 --> 00:33:34.000
on Purpose. I'm your host, Doctor release Cortes. As you

647
00:33:34.079 --> 00:33:36.359
know by now, this program is dedicated to empowering and

648
00:33:36.400 --> 00:33:39.039
inspiring you along your journey to realize more of your potential.

649
00:33:39.480 --> 00:33:40.759
If you want to learn more about how we can

650
00:33:40.799 --> 00:33:43.400
work together and learn about how the Gusto Academy for

651
00:33:43.519 --> 00:33:46.839
leaders and individuals on various journeys alike. Make your way

652
00:33:46.880 --> 00:33:49.720
to gustosh now dot com and go to the training

653
00:33:49.759 --> 00:33:52.400
tap if you are just now joining us. My guest

654
00:33:52.480 --> 00:33:58.640
is Alexander Hutchinson, PhD, author of four books Exercise Ain't Enough, Hit, Honey, Damasda,

655
00:33:59.119 --> 00:34:02.680
The swimscris Rption in Defensive Doping, and also the latest

656
00:34:02.680 --> 00:34:05.920
one and Unfair Advantage in Sports The Body Matters. So

657
00:34:06.119 --> 00:34:08.679
in the last conversation talking about how drug use is

658
00:34:08.719 --> 00:34:11.440
motivated in the various sports, I found it really fascinated

659
00:34:11.559 --> 00:34:14.639
to have you start sharing how you started to first

660
00:34:14.719 --> 00:34:17.199
notice it showing up in the classroom when you were teaching.

661
00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:18.719
So let's talk a little bit about that.

662
00:34:19.679 --> 00:34:24.679
Sure. Sure, So this was my second to last year

663
00:34:24.719 --> 00:34:27.320
of teaching, so this would have been abound twenty nineteen.

664
00:34:29.480 --> 00:34:31.960
I had before we had a big exam. I would

665
00:34:31.960 --> 00:34:33.920
always have a review session for anybody to show up

666
00:34:34.039 --> 00:34:35.880
and ask questions that they still didn't understand about the

667
00:34:35.880 --> 00:34:38.119
topics that we were going over. And at this one

668
00:34:38.159 --> 00:34:43.000
particular session, and it most often the people who showed

669
00:34:43.039 --> 00:34:45.000
up were all my amb students. It was never my

670
00:34:45.079 --> 00:34:47.400
APP and D students. Whoever showed up to these things again,

671
00:34:47.480 --> 00:34:49.519
so you have your highly motivated kids who were there.

672
00:34:49.519 --> 00:34:51.559
And so one of my kids shows up and before

673
00:34:51.559 --> 00:34:55.000
we get started, pops out a prescription bottle, gives it

674
00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:57.320
a quick shape, pops it open, and takes a quick

675
00:34:57.360 --> 00:34:59.639
pill and then starts motioning around to everybody else in

676
00:34:59.639 --> 00:35:03.639
the class way, what are you doing just give out prescriptions?

677
00:35:03.679 --> 00:35:05.239
And then you know, it turns out that it was

678
00:35:05.719 --> 00:35:11.199
not Riddling but the other ADHD. I'm sorry adderall, and

679
00:35:11.280 --> 00:35:13.679
so I you know, I started asking around, you know,

680
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:16.159
who all takes adderall? In here? There was about fifteen

681
00:35:16.199 --> 00:35:18.519
of my students there and all but two raise their hand,

682
00:35:19.519 --> 00:35:21.239
and so I asked him, why do you do that?

683
00:35:21.480 --> 00:35:23.719
And you know, you guys don't obviously don't have ADHD

684
00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:25.840
if if you're taking it from someone else. And I

685
00:35:25.880 --> 00:35:28.320
asked the student who actually had the bottle, do you

686
00:35:28.320 --> 00:35:31.079
have a prescription? Now? I just brought off my roommate.

687
00:35:31.159 --> 00:35:33.079
He doesn't take his anymore, be still refills and me

688
00:35:33.079 --> 00:35:36.559
he sells them. Okay, So I mean, there's lots of

689
00:35:36.639 --> 00:35:39.519
unpack here. And so it turned out that, I mean,

690
00:35:39.599 --> 00:35:43.440
it just helped them all focus, but beyond just helping

691
00:35:43.519 --> 00:35:45.719
them focus in the classroom. It would help them focus

692
00:35:45.760 --> 00:35:48.480
when they were playing sports, it would help them. It

693
00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:52.280
would give them more confidence when they were in interchanges

694
00:35:52.360 --> 00:35:54.679
with the opposite sex or even the same section. Some

695
00:35:54.760 --> 00:35:57.559
of my game lesbian students had the same story as well.

696
00:35:57.559 --> 00:35:58.880
When they would go to a party, that would be

697
00:35:58.920 --> 00:36:00.960
their drugged choice because if even more comfortab to speak

698
00:36:00.960 --> 00:36:04.599
to people. I never knew any of this and no

699
00:36:04.719 --> 00:36:07.320
idea whatsoever. So I've had I've got six classes that

700
00:36:07.400 --> 00:36:13.000
particular semester. I did a little impromptu survey. Don't identify yourself,

701
00:36:13.119 --> 00:36:16.199
just tell me have you ever taken Riddlin or I'm

702
00:36:16.199 --> 00:36:19.639
sorry again at all? Yep, do you have a prescription?

703
00:36:20.119 --> 00:36:23.519
And those are the only two questions basically, And I

704
00:36:23.599 --> 00:36:26.400
was shocked to see that it was a huge number

705
00:36:26.440 --> 00:36:28.360
that came back. In terms of the percentage, it was

706
00:36:28.360 --> 00:36:30.920
well over fifty percent. It was a huge number, all

707
00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:33.800
of them taking it without a prescription. That is a

708
00:36:33.840 --> 00:36:37.519
performance enhancing drug. When I went to speak to some

709
00:36:38.119 --> 00:36:40.039
one of my other professors, my colleagues are like, well,

710
00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:41.280
I don't know, you're going to do better. It was like, well,

711
00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:43.360
I'm not really looking to do anything about it. I'm

712
00:36:43.360 --> 00:36:47.440
just surprised that this is actually happening. That then extended to,

713
00:36:47.519 --> 00:36:49.679
you know, having conversations with some of my mine and

714
00:36:49.719 --> 00:36:53.360
my wife's friends about just that, and they would come

715
00:36:53.440 --> 00:36:55.199
up and say, well, I do the same thing. Particularly,

716
00:36:55.440 --> 00:36:57.280
this was an accountant to what I was speaking. When

717
00:36:57.280 --> 00:36:59.719
tax season rolls around, I need additional focus. I just

718
00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:04.239
take adderall and my doctor prescribes it to me for

719
00:37:04.480 --> 00:37:05.960
a couple of weeks and then I don't feel it

720
00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:07.639
anymore than the next time around to do it again.

721
00:37:08.119 --> 00:37:10.519
And I said, we were talking about this in relation

722
00:37:10.679 --> 00:37:14.159
to doping, and she kept insisting, yeah, but that's different

723
00:37:14.159 --> 00:37:17.280
because that's in sports. That's cheating, Like, well, how is this.

724
00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:19.360
I know it's not cheating per se, but it's still

725
00:37:19.360 --> 00:37:23.079
a performance enhancing drug. And with that particular person, there

726
00:37:23.119 --> 00:37:25.480
was no getting through that that she was not going

727
00:37:25.519 --> 00:37:26.719
to see it that particular way.

728
00:37:27.519 --> 00:37:29.840
Yeah, and that's why I think this is such an

729
00:37:29.840 --> 00:37:31.800
important thing to talk about. It's like, all, there's other

730
00:37:31.800 --> 00:37:33.599
horrible people in the world doing these terrible things, but

731
00:37:33.639 --> 00:37:35.880
not me. You know, I'm not part of the problem.

732
00:37:35.920 --> 00:37:39.199
But actually you really are part of the problem. So

733
00:37:39.360 --> 00:37:42.000
let's do this. Let's talk about first musicians and then

734
00:37:42.039 --> 00:37:43.880
we're going to move more into the business world and

735
00:37:43.920 --> 00:37:47.280
even the case that about the individual at the birthday party,

736
00:37:47.320 --> 00:37:50.000
but I was astounded. I certainly go to the Dill

737
00:37:50.079 --> 00:37:52.559
Symphony and you talk about musicians, you know, they compete

738
00:37:52.599 --> 00:37:55.840
for their positions, just like football players do. And you

739
00:37:56.119 --> 00:37:59.320
then situated, you know, concert violinists and a co concert

740
00:37:59.400 --> 00:38:02.880
violinist situate, you know how much the discrepancy is in

741
00:38:02.960 --> 00:38:06.239
their pay. So thinking about how that would motivate someone

742
00:38:06.320 --> 00:38:09.119
to be able to want to take performance enhancing drugs

743
00:38:09.599 --> 00:38:12.239
to compete for that position. Can you kind of situate that,

744
00:38:12.400 --> 00:38:14.559
you know the music piece here with.

745
00:38:16.280 --> 00:38:19.599
So this was I was watching World News tonight sometime

746
00:38:20.280 --> 00:38:24.840
and this particular story came up about symphony musicians who

747
00:38:24.880 --> 00:38:28.760
take beta blockers. A beta blocker is a drug that

748
00:38:29.039 --> 00:38:33.239
blocks the eerinergic perceptors throughout our body, but particularly on

749
00:38:33.280 --> 00:38:35.880
our heart. So if you get into a fight or

750
00:38:35.880 --> 00:38:38.239
flight situation, which is where you're just nervous and you

751
00:38:38.280 --> 00:38:41.239
get it sweaty and your heart starts to pound, that's

752
00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:44.079
performance anxiety is what they call that. You want to

753
00:38:44.079 --> 00:38:46.119
take something like xanax because then it makes you kind

754
00:38:46.119 --> 00:38:48.519
of loopy. You can't perform. But you take a beta

755
00:38:48.559 --> 00:38:50.679
blocker and it makes it so that your heart does

756
00:38:50.719 --> 00:38:53.559
not beat as fast, which is one thing, but just

757
00:38:53.599 --> 00:38:56.480
as importantly, it doesn't beat as hard, so it makes

758
00:38:56.519 --> 00:38:58.840
it so you can have nice, steady hands, whatever your

759
00:38:58.880 --> 00:39:03.360
instrumental choice is. So there is a national organization that

760
00:39:03.719 --> 00:39:08.400
is dedicated to symphonic musicians and they regularly will send

761
00:39:08.440 --> 00:39:11.199
out surveys about different topics. In this case, they sent

762
00:39:11.280 --> 00:39:16.639
out a survey questionnaire specifically about taking beta blockers, and

763
00:39:17.079 --> 00:39:18.920
of the people who return the survey, and it was

764
00:39:18.920 --> 00:39:22.559
a significant number, upwards of seventy five percent had admitted

765
00:39:22.599 --> 00:39:26.320
that they took beta blockers, and around forty five percent

766
00:39:26.760 --> 00:39:29.119
of the total number who took it or took the

767
00:39:29.159 --> 00:39:32.280
survey stated that they thought that it had an impact

768
00:39:32.360 --> 00:39:36.920
on their performance. So that is a performance enhancing drug.

769
00:39:36.960 --> 00:39:39.320
It is absolutely no different than what an athlete would do,

770
00:39:39.800 --> 00:39:42.519
with the exception being that when you and I go

771
00:39:42.559 --> 00:39:45.840
to see the symphony, we don't necessarily, I'd say most

772
00:39:45.880 --> 00:39:49.599
of us do not at all have emotional investment in

773
00:39:49.679 --> 00:39:52.679
what's about this transpire on the stage like we do

774
00:39:52.719 --> 00:39:55.639
if we go to a sporting event. So it's much

775
00:39:55.679 --> 00:39:58.320
easier for me to build to buy way into a

776
00:39:58.360 --> 00:40:00.800
particular athlete as being here, and then to be let

777
00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:03.400
down and disappointed in finding out that that person was

778
00:40:03.440 --> 00:40:05.000
not all that I thought they were going to be

779
00:40:05.159 --> 00:40:08.440
or not going to be the same thing situation as

780
00:40:08.440 --> 00:40:11.880
far as symphony musicians are concerned. But to your point,

781
00:40:12.559 --> 00:40:15.440
it is competitive. It is even more competitive to get

782
00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:18.599
one of these spots on a big symphony because there's

783
00:40:18.599 --> 00:40:21.920
only a handful of them than it is to get

784
00:40:21.920 --> 00:40:24.960
a spot in an NFL football team. The total number

785
00:40:25.039 --> 00:40:27.280
of people who are coming out of college who have

786
00:40:27.400 --> 00:40:31.639
a music performance degree is way bigger than the total

787
00:40:31.719 --> 00:40:35.599
number of potentially eligible draftees into the NFL, and so

788
00:40:35.639 --> 00:40:38.440
you have tight competition for a very very small number

789
00:40:38.440 --> 00:40:41.639
of spots. And the average shelf life of a symphony

790
00:40:41.719 --> 00:40:44.199
musician is much longer than the average shelf life of

791
00:40:44.199 --> 00:40:46.840
ANFL player, which is two or three years max. So

792
00:40:46.880 --> 00:40:49.079
the turnovers and is great. So when these things come up,

793
00:40:49.119 --> 00:40:50.800
obviously they want to compete for it, and they do

794
00:40:50.840 --> 00:40:52.400
get a big difference in terms of how much they

795
00:40:52.440 --> 00:40:56.199
get paid, for sure, but there's also just the prestige

796
00:40:56.239 --> 00:41:00.159
of being the first chair in the first section that's

797
00:41:00.159 --> 00:41:00.760
a big deal.

798
00:41:01.199 --> 00:41:05.039
Yeah, Okay, so I think you made a strong case

799
00:41:05.079 --> 00:41:08.440
for you know, the motivation for taking performance enhancing drugs

800
00:41:08.440 --> 00:41:11.599
in various places. Now let's finish this conversation and bring

801
00:41:11.639 --> 00:41:14.000
it into the world of business. If you could just

802
00:41:14.119 --> 00:41:17.719
quickly touch on the case with Margo. She was talking.

803
00:41:17.800 --> 00:41:19.599
You were talking about, you know, the stuff from tennis

804
00:41:19.599 --> 00:41:22.480
that was going on, and she started talking about how

805
00:41:22.599 --> 00:41:25.079
she takes something and she was up for this big

806
00:41:25.119 --> 00:41:28.840
promotion with which came with the substantial bonus and you know,

807
00:41:29.039 --> 00:41:33.000
a big raise, et cetera. So you are engaging with

808
00:41:33.000 --> 00:41:35.239
her own conversation and saying, but hey, it's the same thing.

809
00:41:35.679 --> 00:41:37.559
So sheared a little bit more that case, what was

810
00:41:37.599 --> 00:41:39.800
she taking She was taking.

811
00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:43.320
It at all, because it's just she was the tax

812
00:41:43.320 --> 00:41:47.280
accountant who was one of a clear certain number of

813
00:41:47.320 --> 00:41:48.440
these big accounts.

814
00:41:48.519 --> 00:41:50.079
Okay, she was saying, to get them right.

815
00:41:50.719 --> 00:41:52.800
And so I was asking all these questions myself because

816
00:41:52.840 --> 00:41:55.320
I never knew how accountants worked or how they were judged.

817
00:41:55.800 --> 00:42:01.000
But there's obviously you can get the a big tax

818
00:42:01.079 --> 00:42:04.760
bill through for a particular corporation or individual and also

819
00:42:04.880 --> 00:42:09.239
avoid getting audited. That's a big, big thing. So there's

820
00:42:09.280 --> 00:42:12.159
there's a lot of pressure to perform as there isn't

821
00:42:12.199 --> 00:42:16.360
any business, you know, enterprise. And in this case, she

822
00:42:16.599 --> 00:42:19.440
was up for a promotion against three other people, and

823
00:42:19.480 --> 00:42:22.119
she laid out very clearly what it was that she

824
00:42:22.199 --> 00:42:25.360
was willing to do. She has a particular moral, ethical,

825
00:42:25.760 --> 00:42:29.039
and potential danger to her body threshold that she's willing

826
00:42:29.400 --> 00:42:31.320
to put up with in order to do her job

827
00:42:31.360 --> 00:42:34.360
at the highest level that she can potentially perform, and

828
00:42:34.440 --> 00:42:37.599
no more than that. But that's probably higher than what

829
00:42:37.719 --> 00:42:38.519
other people would do.

830
00:42:39.199 --> 00:42:39.320
Uh.

831
00:42:39.559 --> 00:42:42.519
And then it's also well, it's not illegal because her

832
00:42:42.519 --> 00:42:44.519
doctor is actually giving her a prescription, but for the

833
00:42:44.559 --> 00:42:47.239
other people who are doing this without a prescription, it

834
00:42:47.280 --> 00:42:51.480
is illegal. So there there these things that we talk

835
00:42:51.519 --> 00:42:54.519
about with morals and ethics. They're always very pliable and

836
00:42:54.519 --> 00:42:58.519
they're always relative to the individual themselves. So one thing

837
00:42:58.519 --> 00:43:00.360
that we have to think about that's the exact same

838
00:43:00.440 --> 00:43:05.239
between a CEO and a Lance Armstrong, is that these

839
00:43:05.280 --> 00:43:11.480
people mentally are not like everybody else. Everybody else has

840
00:43:11.679 --> 00:43:13.760
a threshold in terms of how much they're willing to

841
00:43:13.760 --> 00:43:16.599
do as a workaholic or not, and most people are

842
00:43:16.599 --> 00:43:19.920
not willing to go there. But folks have an absolute

843
00:43:20.079 --> 00:43:23.719
drive to get to the next level, to climb the

844
00:43:23.760 --> 00:43:26.760
next mountain, whether it is in business space or whether

845
00:43:26.800 --> 00:43:30.519
it is in competition. They want that challenge to be met,

846
00:43:30.559 --> 00:43:32.199
and they want to get over the top. And whatever

847
00:43:32.239 --> 00:43:34.559
it is that they have to do within reason, they

848
00:43:34.559 --> 00:43:37.880
have their own reasonable limits they're going to do, and

849
00:43:38.079 --> 00:43:40.840
they're not particularly interested in listening to what the average

850
00:43:40.960 --> 00:43:44.119
American thinks about their choices in terms of what they

851
00:43:44.119 --> 00:43:46.320
will or will not do to get to the next level.

852
00:43:47.639 --> 00:43:49.559
That is the primary place that I see that there

853
00:43:49.599 --> 00:43:52.119
is a congruence between the things that you teach in

854
00:43:52.199 --> 00:43:55.239
terms of, you know, business and the things that I'm

855
00:43:55.280 --> 00:43:57.800
talking about here in terms of sports, because if the

856
00:43:57.840 --> 00:43:58.920
sports is.

857
00:43:59.039 --> 00:44:02.519
Business, yeah, in the game of life. Yeah, So let's

858
00:44:02.519 --> 00:44:04.440
do this. Let's just talk about a couple of some

859
00:44:04.480 --> 00:44:06.880
of the notable scandals that have happened in business that

860
00:44:06.960 --> 00:44:10.239
really are related to what we've been talking about here.

861
00:44:10.280 --> 00:44:13.199
It's a drive to perform, it's a derive to succeed,

862
00:44:13.840 --> 00:44:16.800
you know, and the monetary part of it is huge.

863
00:44:17.039 --> 00:44:19.239
You know. We could always you know, start with the

864
00:44:19.280 --> 00:44:21.920
Wells Fargo you know, Fike account scandal that happened in

865
00:44:22.159 --> 00:44:25.199
what was it twenty sixteen. That's I'm surprised a lot

866
00:44:25.199 --> 00:44:27.400
of people don't know about that. But if you could

867
00:44:27.440 --> 00:44:29.159
say a little bit about what you know about that

868
00:44:29.199 --> 00:44:32.440
and how it's related to this topic of really doing

869
00:44:32.599 --> 00:44:35.440
something at all costs to be able to push and succeed.

870
00:44:36.320 --> 00:44:39.280
Obviously, so you have individuals and wills Fargo who are

871
00:44:39.280 --> 00:44:43.400
giving bonuses to underlings who are opening up as many

872
00:44:43.400 --> 00:44:45.360
accounts as they possibly can. They're getting rewarded for how

873
00:44:45.360 --> 00:44:47.960
many accounts they're opening up. Yeah, when they run out

874
00:44:48.000 --> 00:44:50.440
of people, because obviously you turn to your best friend

875
00:44:50.480 --> 00:44:52.039
and then her friend and then her friend, and then

876
00:44:52.039 --> 00:44:54.480
you go to family, and you keep you keep adding,

877
00:44:54.719 --> 00:44:56.440
you know, your your book. But then there's no one

878
00:44:56.480 --> 00:45:00.440
else to sign up. So then they started to people

879
00:45:00.440 --> 00:45:03.639
who are already customers for products that they did not

880
00:45:03.719 --> 00:45:06.559
ask for and never signed up for themselves. So in

881
00:45:06.639 --> 00:45:09.599
doing so, they're getting these little charges to their account

882
00:45:09.599 --> 00:45:11.000
that they don't even know over there because they never

883
00:45:11.039 --> 00:45:13.000
opened these accounts themselves. And then the person who opened

884
00:45:13.000 --> 00:45:15.840
the account is getting a bonus off that. Now, from

885
00:45:15.920 --> 00:45:20.400
what I read about this, the upper management never explicitly

886
00:45:20.480 --> 00:45:23.280
told them to do so, but had to have known

887
00:45:23.360 --> 00:45:27.039
it was happening and just look the other way, because

888
00:45:27.079 --> 00:45:30.400
if their people are performing well, then they're also going

889
00:45:30.480 --> 00:45:33.880
to get looked upon with a beautiful light because these

890
00:45:33.920 --> 00:45:37.079
are my managees and they're performing at a very high level,

891
00:45:37.079 --> 00:45:39.840
which means I'm a great manager. And then that's going

892
00:45:39.880 --> 00:45:42.360
to obviously provide a bonus to that particular person, and

893
00:45:42.440 --> 00:45:44.639
it feeds up the chain all the way to the top.

894
00:45:46.239 --> 00:45:48.119
So you know, go ahead.

895
00:45:48.280 --> 00:45:49.920
I was just going to say, I just wanted to situate,

896
00:45:49.960 --> 00:45:51.320
you know, because I did a little bit of research

897
00:45:51.320 --> 00:45:54.159
on this. The outcome was there was over three billion

898
00:45:54.199 --> 00:45:56.639
dollars in fines that Wells Barbo had to pay. They

899
00:45:56.639 --> 00:45:59.159
fired a lot of their employees and destroyed the public trust,

900
00:45:59.760 --> 00:46:03.360
and the CEO resigned. So there are definitely some consequences

901
00:46:03.400 --> 00:46:03.639
to this.

902
00:46:04.760 --> 00:46:06.360
There are there are.

903
00:46:07.639 --> 00:46:08.280
To say about that.

904
00:46:08.960 --> 00:46:11.000
I was just going to say, you don't know if

905
00:46:11.039 --> 00:46:13.519
any of the individuals who had their money taken got

906
00:46:13.559 --> 00:46:16.199
it all back, right, I'd say a good chunk of

907
00:46:16.239 --> 00:46:18.400
them did, but it's just not possible to actually know,

908
00:46:18.480 --> 00:46:20.559
especially if they got disgusted and just left, then they're

909
00:46:20.599 --> 00:46:22.480
never going to get that money back obviously, because they're

910
00:46:22.480 --> 00:46:24.920
not going to be there to ask for it. But again,

911
00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:29.400
those same ideas are presents in sports because sports is

912
00:46:29.440 --> 00:46:30.719
just a microcosm of life.

913
00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:34.199
Yeah, exactly as quickly as we can. I just want

914
00:46:34.239 --> 00:46:37.199
to situate a few more. There was the Voltswagen admission

915
00:46:37.320 --> 00:46:41.159
scandal in twenty fifteen, which I was captivated by. So

916
00:46:41.239 --> 00:46:44.519
that's where they literally installed software on over eleven million

917
00:46:44.559 --> 00:46:47.480
cars worldwide to cheat the emission rates, and the vehicles

918
00:46:47.519 --> 00:46:51.599
actually appeared environmental compliant, but they actually admitted up to

919
00:46:51.719 --> 00:46:56.039
forty times more X whatever that is in real world conditions.

920
00:46:56.320 --> 00:46:59.320
And I remember that extremely well. So that's definitely that

921
00:46:59.480 --> 00:47:03.000
drive you succeed at all costs and similar kind of

922
00:47:03.039 --> 00:47:06.280
thread right here, any comment on that that case.

923
00:47:06.239 --> 00:47:08.760
Right, So, I mean that one was even more pernicious

924
00:47:08.800 --> 00:47:11.199
because what they did was they implanted a software within

925
00:47:11.280 --> 00:47:13.840
the car that when you go to get your your

926
00:47:13.920 --> 00:47:17.280
vehicle hooked up, they'll actually plug something into the computer

927
00:47:17.440 --> 00:47:19.639
and then they'll stick another thing and the tailpipe to

928
00:47:19.639 --> 00:47:23.119
measure the gases that are coming out. Well, the software

929
00:47:23.119 --> 00:47:26.679
package in the Volkswagen told the actual machine that's reading

930
00:47:27.000 --> 00:47:29.320
the gas pipe, you're not really reading that's coming out.

931
00:47:29.320 --> 00:47:32.400
You're reading this clean stuff instead, and so this went

932
00:47:32.440 --> 00:47:34.719
on for years and years and years until some really

933
00:47:34.760 --> 00:47:37.679
good technicians figured this can't possibly be right, this doesn't

934
00:47:37.679 --> 00:47:39.880
make any sense, and then you were able to figure

935
00:47:39.880 --> 00:47:42.519
it out. But you know that that skirted the law

936
00:47:42.639 --> 00:47:47.159
of dozens of different countries in terms of their environmental policies. Uh,

937
00:47:47.199 --> 00:47:53.480
and it costs Volkswagen enormous amounts of money. And then

938
00:47:53.519 --> 00:47:55.960
and then how much how much of of your your

939
00:47:56.320 --> 00:47:58.119
brand loyalty has been lost because of this?

940
00:47:58.760 --> 00:48:02.039
Yeah? Huge? And then, just very briefly, just because this

941
00:48:02.079 --> 00:48:04.880
has been in the news just recently, Dorano's blood testing

942
00:48:04.960 --> 00:48:08.639
scandle of twenty fifteen. You know, that's where the founder,

943
00:48:08.639 --> 00:48:14.239
Elizabeth Holmes, falsely claimed that the Durando's technology could perform

944
00:48:14.320 --> 00:48:16.320
hundreds of tests on a single drop of blood. Of

945
00:48:16.320 --> 00:48:19.440
course it never worked, so she's gone through that, the

946
00:48:19.440 --> 00:48:24.840
criminal charges, their company dissolution, very high profile trial resulting

947
00:48:24.880 --> 00:48:28.280
in Holmess convictions. And that's been was also really interesting

948
00:48:28.320 --> 00:48:29.320
any comment on that.

949
00:48:29.280 --> 00:48:32.679
Case that that is the one that I see because

950
00:48:32.719 --> 00:48:36.039
we got a very up close and personal look at Elizabeth,

951
00:48:36.880 --> 00:48:41.119
You've got a sensus to what the pathology is of

952
00:48:41.119 --> 00:48:45.079
these particular individuals her idea was fascinating and she really

953
00:48:45.119 --> 00:48:46.039
wished it would work.

954
00:48:46.480 --> 00:48:47.800
Yeah, but it never was.

955
00:48:47.760 --> 00:48:49.880
Going to And instead of taking the time to actually

956
00:48:49.880 --> 00:48:51.400
sit there and test it and figure out that this

957
00:48:51.440 --> 00:48:53.199
isn't probably going to work with to go a different angle,

958
00:48:54.039 --> 00:48:56.000
just pull bar. I'm just going to put my blanders on.

959
00:48:56.119 --> 00:48:57.960
Eventually this is going to work. We're going to fake

960
00:48:58.000 --> 00:49:00.480
it or make it. Even though everybody around her is

961
00:49:00.480 --> 00:49:02.920
telling you this is never going to possibly work, it

962
00:49:02.960 --> 00:49:05.719
can't possibly work. They just kept on going and defunding

963
00:49:05.760 --> 00:49:08.079
their investors over and over and over again. And then

964
00:49:08.119 --> 00:49:10.480
when it came time to pay the piper, she made

965
00:49:10.480 --> 00:49:13.159
these what I feel were quite ridiculous claim is that

966
00:49:13.280 --> 00:49:17.360
was the other person within the corporation who was she

967
00:49:17.400 --> 00:49:18.920
was in a romantic relationship with him and he was

968
00:49:18.920 --> 00:49:20.880
physically abusing her and making her do this stuff. But

969
00:49:20.920 --> 00:49:22.960
they had tons and tons of evidence that that wasn't

970
00:49:22.960 --> 00:49:23.320
the case.

971
00:49:23.400 --> 00:49:26.039
Yeah. I so wish we had more time, Alexander. This

972
00:49:26.079 --> 00:49:28.880
has been just a fascinating, riven conversation. I'm so grateful.

973
00:49:28.880 --> 00:49:31.360
I literally ran into it. White Rock Lake. You said, yes,

974
00:49:31.480 --> 00:49:34.559
you came on. Thank you for being on working on purpose.

975
00:49:34.639 --> 00:49:36.239
It's an amazing conversation with you.

976
00:49:37.039 --> 00:49:38.880
I can't thank you enough for having me, and I

977
00:49:38.880 --> 00:49:40.880
hope there's another opportunity for us to talk in the future.

978
00:49:41.079 --> 00:49:42.760
Oh you can run, but you can hide, and I'm

979
00:49:42.760 --> 00:49:46.159
pretty fast. Listeners and viewers I who want to learn

980
00:49:46.159 --> 00:49:49.679
more about doctor Alexander Hutchinson's book or his books or

981
00:49:49.719 --> 00:49:52.320
his work, you can find him first on LinkedIn, just

982
00:49:52.360 --> 00:49:56.360
as his name Alexander Hutchison, so it's Alexander and then

983
00:49:56.440 --> 00:50:02.039
Hutchison is spelled Hutchiso in. You can also find him

984
00:50:02.119 --> 00:50:05.679
on Amazon under the listed authors as well, along with

985
00:50:05.719 --> 00:50:08.159
all of his books. Last week, if you missed the

986
00:50:08.199 --> 00:50:10.960
live show, you can always catch it be recorded podcast.

987
00:50:11.079 --> 00:50:13.599
We were on air with Carlos Hoyas. He's a fellow

988
00:50:13.679 --> 00:50:16.280
Forbes Council coach with me who lives and works in

989
00:50:16.320 --> 00:50:19.480
Brazil doing business in Portuguese, Spanish and English, and we

990
00:50:19.519 --> 00:50:22.199
talked about the role of self leadership and building dynamic

991
00:50:22.239 --> 00:50:25.800
teams and creating us strong corporate culture, and we embrace

992
00:50:25.880 --> 00:50:28.719
throughout the conversation how leadership first and foremost is an

993
00:50:28.719 --> 00:50:32.119
inside job. Next week, we'll be on air with Davin

994
00:50:32.159 --> 00:50:35.880
Salvagno talking about his new book Thieves of purpose, overcoming

995
00:50:35.920 --> 00:50:39.159
the twelve mindsets robbing you of your potential. See you then,

996
00:50:39.239 --> 00:50:41.079
and remember work as one of the best adventures and

997
00:50:41.159 --> 00:50:43.440
means of realizing your potential and making the impact. With

998
00:50:43.559 --> 00:50:45.840
Craig and he can give us opportunity to do business

999
00:50:45.840 --> 00:50:48.119
in a way that betters the world. So let's work

1000
00:50:48.159 --> 00:50:48.679
on Purpose.

1001
00:50:52.159 --> 00:50:54.840
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to

1002
00:50:54.840 --> 00:50:58.519
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes,

1003
00:50:58.639 --> 00:51:02.239
each week on W foury. Together we'll create a world

1004
00:51:02.239 --> 00:51:06.800
where business operates conscientiously. Leadership inspires and passion performance and

1005
00:51:06.880 --> 00:51:09.559
employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning and

1006
00:51:09.599 --> 00:51:13.320
purpose they crave. See you there, Let's work on Purpose.