Aug. 18, 2026

Fair Share: Making Gender Fairness a Leadership Value, Not a Program

Fair Share: Making Gender Fairness a Leadership Value, Not a Program
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Gender inclusion has too often been treated as an initiative to launch instead of a value to live. And something that benefits women, and not men. Brad Johnson and David Smith challenge leaders to build equitable workplaces through daily behaviors, male allyship, caregiving support, fair hiring, and measurable culture change—revealing why fear, silence, and performative programs keep organizations from the talent and trust they claim to seek.

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The topics and opinions express in the following show are

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solely those of the hosts and their guests and not

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What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the

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answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose

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at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their

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lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization

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that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their

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highest potential. Business can be such a force for good

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in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide

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guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we

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all want working on Purpose. Now, here's your host, doctor

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Elise Cortes.

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Welcome back to the Working and Purpose Program, which has

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been brought to you with passion and pride since February

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of twenty fifteen. I said again this week, great to

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have you. I'm your host, doctor Elias Cortes. Most leaders

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are sitting on untapped tuman energy and capacity. I help

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them unlock it. I'm an organizational psychologist, local therapist, workforce

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advisor and the founder of the Gusto Now movement. But

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the title I live by is much simpler. I traffic

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and energy, not surface level motivation or another engagement initiative.

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The deeper force what I call gustel, the life force

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for performance that drives commitment, perseverance, and genuine ownership of

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a shared admission in the clients we serve. You can

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learn more about on how we can work together at

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gusto dashnow dot com or visit my personal site at

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least Coortes dot com. Getting in today's program we have

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with us, we have the author and professor duo doctors

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Brad Johnson and David Smith. Doctor Brad Johnson is a

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clinical psychologist and gender in the Workplace expert. A former

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commissioned officer in the Navy, he served as a psychologist

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at Bathesda Naval Hospital and out the Medical Clinic at

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Pearl Harbor, and as a professor of leadership in psychology

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in the US Naval Academy. Doctor David Smith is a

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professor in the Johns Hopkins Carey Business School and co

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founder of the Gender and Work Initiative at JHU. As

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a sociologist trained in military sociology and social psychology, he

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focuses his research in gender, work and family issues including

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bias and performance evaluations, retention of women, dual family family,

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dual career families, mental load, and allyship. Together. They are

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the authors of fair Share, How Men and Women can

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create a more equable Workplace Together, which we'll be talking

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about today, will dive into the importance of leading a

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workforce culture transformation, going all in on supporting caregiving among

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the workforce, and operating fairness across the organization. Doctor Johnson

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joins us today from Bellingham, Washington, and doctor Smith joins

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us today from Baltimore, Maryland. Doctor's welcome to Working on

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Purpose you. I'm really delighted to have you. I said

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to you before we came on air together that I

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of course loved and devoured your book. I really want

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to celebrate what you've done together. And as we were talking, it's,

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you know, no small thing to put this thing into

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the world. And since you both are parents, I will

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also tell you that this is harder than making a

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child and bringing it into the world. And I've done

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both so I can attest, right, So so I really,

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you know, I appreciate it. Oh your book is just

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chock full of so many things, and I kept you know,

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when I'm in public and I read my books, oftentimes

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I get myself in trouble because I'm like, yes, that's right.

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People around me are like, oh my gosh, it's a

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crazy one in forty over here on the airplane, you know. Yeah,

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you guys did that to me.

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So you know, we've always wanted to be on an

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airplane next to somebody reading our books. So we missed

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out on that with you too.

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I also have that deep secret. Yeah. And then you

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go up to them and say, hey, is that book

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any good? And then they say, oh, it's terrible, and

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we just keep walk in right yeah, right, yeah. Anyway,

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I appreciated your humor. I want to say a little

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bit for our listeners and viewers who haven't as you

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yet as I have. I really loved how you talk

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in your book about who the two of you are

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and let me just read that for our listeners and viewers,

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then you can comment on how this came together. But

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you say in the book, we are two tall, straight

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cisgender white men in our sixth decade. In other words,

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we practically ouse identity based advantage. We are college professors

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and former naval officers. We are partners and parents, and

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for the past decade we have been deeply engaged in

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gender inclusion and equity at work. But that doesn't make

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you accessible. I don't know, what does you know.

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We just want to put it out there, right. We're

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not the typical suspects I suppose when it comes to

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talking about gender fairness.

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Yeah.

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I think one of the things that we hear from

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audiences all the time when they see us, it's like, so,

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this is not what we expected, and why are you

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two guys up here talking to us about this? And

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I think it's a great fair question from both men

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and women, and for maybe a little bit different reasons.

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But there's often a little bit of curiosity in question,

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being skeptical about who we are and what we do

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and why we do that. And I think that's fair,

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that's fair for anyone out there today. And Brad and

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I always like to start off, and we've done this

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before with other some of our other books as well,

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that you need to start off with your why, why

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is this important to you? What got you started in

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doing this work? And I think that's really helpful and

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everybody and understanding your motivation to do this is for

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Brad and I. For both of us, we have kind

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of a common connection in this work, and part of

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it is our research and understanding the fact that you know,

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we both have worked in areas where we've seen gender

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disparities play out in the workplace in a variety of

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different ways, and in our research it connects into that

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and really kind of understanding what are the mechanisms and

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what are how are we holding back people from achieving

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their best and thriving in the workplace and really helping

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our workplace is in our professions to really do the

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jobs that we've been trained to do. And then for

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both of us, we both have connections I think from

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a personal side as well, and so from a family side.

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For me, you know, it was my wife.

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We had parallel careers in the military, and really seeing

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the very different ways that we experienced in the military and

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both interpersonal relationships, but also around kind of our careers

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and thinking about how do we combine careers and family.

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And my wife got a lot of different guidance than

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I did.

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I'll just say that.

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And when I look for mentorship and sponsorship and people

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to work with me and to help advance me in

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my career, I didn't have to look very far. For

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my wife, it was often what are you still doing here?

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Why are you still in uniform today? And taking another

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man's job. So again, very different experiences for all of

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us out there, and I think that's part of the

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motivation for why we continue to do this work today.

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That's such a powerful perspective. And I will say, you know,

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wrap out other people in the podcast, I definitely don't

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look you and any sort of direction, and your voice

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really contributes. Right, there's another and we're going to get

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into this, right what is you know, what's in this

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for men as well as women. There's just so much

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to this so and I can't help. But also echo

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you talk about early on in the book, the workplace

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is broken and is calling for a gender for a workplace.

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You may not know this, gentlemen, but so much of

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what we're doing at Gusto now is helping to create

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what we call destination workplaces where people actually want to

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come and give their best and will support the other

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fellow fellow employees and don't really want to leave because

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it's so great here. That's how what we're doing to

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help organizations. So totally, you've added a whole other perspective

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to what does a destination workplace look like?

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Yeah, yeah, and you know you talk about the work

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you're doing at Gusto, doctor CORTEZI sm it highlights the

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maybe failure of imagination on the part of a lot

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of CEOs who who aren't able to look ahead and

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imagine what is it going to look like for us

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in terms of success in terms of competition. If we're

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not not only pulling in talented women but also retaining

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them right at a level equivalent to men, it's not

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going to go well for us in terms of our sustainability,

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our bottom line. So it is a little surprising that

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we don't have people able to look down the road

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and see what's on opportunity when we become best in class.

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Is a gender fair workplace?

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I think for a lot of the leaders that we

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work with, I mean I think it's a tough jobbing

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a leader, right, you both know that. I mean, so

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there's so much on your plate and you're just trying

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to get through the day, and having the capacity to

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look up and try to architect something like that is

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often beyond what they normally allow themselves to do until

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they work with someone like us.

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Yeah.

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I think one of the things that struck us was

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looking working with a lot of different organizations and really

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beginning to understand how they've approached this.

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Is seeing that the organizations that do this.

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Really well well and this will be no surprise to you,

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are the ones that have they baked this into their

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organization are It's there as a part of who they are.

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It's part of their culture, it's part of their values,

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it's part of the way that workflow is designed. They've

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thought about this and in terms of every structure and process,

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who they are recruiting, the kind of talent they're looking

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to retain and advance in their organization. It's baked into

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every aspect of it. And those are the organizations where

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those leaders don't have to worry about it because they've

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already made sure that it's a part of the organization.

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The structure of what we do every day, that identity,

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that culture of who we are and the product that

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service or the clients that they serve out there, so

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they don't have to worry about it as much and

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it's not a lot of work like it is for

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some of those companies where it's not baked in.

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Well, I want to paint this for our listeners and

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viewers who haven't been steeped in this like we have.

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When we say that the work place is broken, and

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of course you do talk about that, there is this

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increasing awareness of how archaic norms, the right language from

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my Vanish point, our cake norms, attitudes, and workplace customs

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around women and men have outlived their relevance and usefulness.

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Can we just quickly paint, you know, why this isn't

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working for women and why we're starting to learn how

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it's also not working for men.

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Yeah, yeah, well I'll begin So, you know, I think

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we're all aware that this has not been working for

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women forever, really since the dawn of the modern workplace,

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created by men for men to do men's work, largely

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by men who had stay at home wives right and

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didn't have any expectation that they were going to be

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involved meaningfully in caregiving or a real partnership in the home.

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That just wasn't the template. Then women entered the workforce

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in significant numbers back in the last century. The workplace

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didn't change, and so women have been forever trying to

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pretzel themselves into this traditional workplace that expects all of

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us to be on twenty four to seven, always available,

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prioritizing work above all else. And it's clearly not sustainable.

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And the way you know that, look at women exiting

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the workforce in droves just this year, right. I think

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the most recent jobs report showed that really the exodus

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from the workforce almost exclusively accounted for by women most recently.

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And that's been a trend for a long time. So

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we might bring women on board, we're not retaining them.

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It's not working largely because we don't support caregivers. We

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don't support employees who have any caregiving obligation outside the workplace.

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And this is for women and men. I think what's

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changed is we have a generation of men who are

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now saying this is not working for me either. If

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my workplace is not going to allow me to show

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up and be the kind of partner I want to

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be at home and the kind of parent I want

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to be. I'm going to vote with my fee right,

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I'm going to leave. So you see a lot of

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junior men leaving now. They're looking for a different kind

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of workplace. They're not looking for the workplace of their grandfather.

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They don't want to sacrifice relationships at home on the

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altar of their career. So I think what's changing is

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profound dissatisfaction on the part of a lot of men

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as well.

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Yeah, and I appreciate how you say who do want

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to be connected to their families, do want to be

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part of the caregiving activities, And we'll talk more about

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the numbers of what that looks like as we go.

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But there, I was just startled by all of the

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research that you report that you reported from, and I

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know a lot of that comes from you both have

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written previous books, but you also interviewed one hundred thought

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leaders and researchers who have a deep expertise and achieving

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gender fair workplaces. And after distilling those ideas that that's

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where this book came from. And I will say I

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recognize two of those researchers that you talk about both

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of it have been on my podcast. That is Jodie

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Thompson who recently came on talking about the Results Only workplace,

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and then Zach mccurio has been on twice. So those

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are two of the people that you mentioned in your

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book that I recognize. But if you want to say

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just a little bit more about what this research entailed

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and why did you go after those particular kinds of people.

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Yeah, So we've Bradon I write books.

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We've again addressing some very serious systemic issues in our workplaces,

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in our society. And I think there's plenty in the

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news around the negative side of this, right there's I

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think many of us understand for way too long how

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we've been challenged by this, both men and women in

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a variety of different ways. What we're really lacking is

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really understanding what works and what are the examples? What

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does it look like? What does it look like in

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my industry? What does it look like my size of organization.

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Maybe I'm a small business, I'm not a large corporation

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multinational corporation. What are the tools, what are the options,

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what are the best practices and how might they look

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different for me? What are the opportunities I have as

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a small business the large corporation doesn't have. So there

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are there advantages for different size organizations. So looking at

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trying to find as many of the leaders out there

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that are doing really creative, innovative workplace practices today, and

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they do have that imagination that Brad was talking about.

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And I think that's what was so much fun as

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we were working through all the different industries and looking

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for the specific practices that we're really working out there,

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is hearing these leaders talk about it. And it was

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really it was really a lot of fun just to

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be able to hear from them how much they just

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wanted to show it off. They wanted to show the

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world and tell the world because nobody really paid any

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attention to them for whatever reason about what was working.

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Because it's like, oh, well it's working, nobody really wants

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to talk about it. But that's what we really need,

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and so that was the goal as we went through

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and we bring in all of the research that backs

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us up about why these work, why these practices work.

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But I think the thing that's most compelling to leaders

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today it's not necessarily the business case and the evidence.

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The bottom line out there it's the stories, it's the examples,

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it's the how how did this leader role model this

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and his company? And I think that that's what makes

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a difference for so many leaders. And once they hear,

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once they get pulled in by that story, then we

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can come back in with the evidence and the data.

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And that's what we try to do with the book

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is tell a great story, show them, show them the

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examples that work, and then give them just enough of

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the evidence there to show them, hey, this is not

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just luck and not a one off. There's actually evidence

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that backs us up so you can count on it.

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There's so much more that I want to add to that.

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Let's go ahead and grab our first break so our

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listeners and viewers can kind of start thinking about how

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what might they need to shift and ask for differently

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in their own lives and also at their companies, because

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I want them to be able to really start chewing

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on this the way that both three of us have

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as we as we've gotten into this, I'm your host,

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Doctorlie's Cortes. We run the year with doctors David Smith

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and Brad Johnson, who described themselves as two tall, straight,

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cisgender white men in our six decade. They are college

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professors and former naval officers. They are partners and parents,

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and for the last decade they have been deeply engaged

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in gender inclusion and equity at work. We've been talking

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about the need to create a gender fair workplace. After

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the break, we're going to continue on and talk more

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deeply about just why we need to go all in

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on caregiving. We'll be right back.

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Doctor Elise Courts has as a management consultant specializing in

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meaning and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps

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companies visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose

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inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance,

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and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to

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en I fight a lease to speak to your organization,

335
00:17:02.159 --> 00:17:05.720
please visit her at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about

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how to get your employees working on purpose. This is

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working on Purpose with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our

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program today or to open a conversation with Elise, send

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00:17:20.559 --> 00:17:25.880
an email to a lease a LISEE at elisecortes dot com.

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Now back to working on Purpose.

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Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back. To working

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on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes as I too,

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am dedicated to help them create a world where organizations

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thrive because they're people thrive. They're led by inspirational leaders

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that help them find and contribute their greatness, and we

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do business that betters the world. I keep researching and

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writing my own books. So one of my latest came out.

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It's called The Great Realization How activating meeting and Purpose

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can radically and live in your business. And I wrote

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it to help leaders understand just some of the things

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we're talking about here today today's discerning workforce. What do

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they want and need from you to be able to

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give their best and stick around? So then I provide

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you twenty two best practices to equip you to do

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that in your culture and your operations. You can find

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my books on Amazon or my site at least quotas

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00:18:12.400 --> 00:18:15.039
dot com if you are just now joining us. My

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guests are doctors Brad Johnson and David Smith, the authors

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of The Fair Share how men and women can create

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a more equitable workplace together. So there's a lot more

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I want to cover here, but the first thing I

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want to get to really quick here is you have

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a chapter on demonstrating gender inclusive leadership, and there's two

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things that you ask us to do to begin your

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gender inclusive leader journey. There's two things to stop doing.

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One is to stop framing gender by fairness as a

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women's issue and stop provoking resistance in men. Can we

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just talk about that briefly before we go on to

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some of these other ideas.

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Yes, boy, that's really kind of the secret sauce right

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to starting the transformation in your culture towards something a

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bit more gender fair. Dave and I see this all

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the time. We go into an organization and we're asked

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to speak on inclusive leadership or better mail allyship for

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a gender fair workplace, and it's often maybe it's not

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International Women's Day. Right, they have tea and cookies that

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are presentation, and Dave and I are the guests. The

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CEO shows up for five minutes to do a quick

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intro and then races off to another meeting. Right, doesn't stay,

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doesn't take notes, doesn't engage, doesn't communicate that this is

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core to who we are. Right, this is a value

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based priority for us, and I want everyone here and

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I'm going to role model it when we see that,

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we are thinking to ourselves performative. Right, This is not

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embedded in the DNA. The other thing that you'll see

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in that organization often is at any progress toward better

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equity for women around pay, around advancement is on the

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shoulders of women, and it's often centered in the women's ergy. Right,

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it's unfunded, it's siloed, it's really not part of the

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fundamental business practice of that organization. So this is making

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it a women's problem. Right. We have done this far

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too long, and you know, look at you know, honestly,

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Dave and I know a lot of really great women's

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leadership programs are out there, and I think organizations got

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to really prioritize those. But if all you're doing is

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sending women to a program to learn how to pretzel

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themselves into the traditional workplace, you're not changing the culture.

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You're not changing the managers they're going to go back

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and have to deal with for the rest of their career.

400
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You're probably getting it wrong. And that's I think fundamentally

401
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what's been wrong for too long. The second part of

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that question is we failed when it comes to showing

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men what's in it for them.

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Right.

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If men hear anything about gender during the course of

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a typical year, it's maybe a siloed many compliance based

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sexual harassment training, or maybe implicit bias.

408
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So it's shame, it's blame.

409
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There's nothing in there about Hey buddy, what's in this

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for you? How are you going to get better? How

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is this going to bump up your EQ and your

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opportunities for leadership? Which, by the way, the research shows

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right when I'm better at crush gender collaboration, I'm actually

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more likely to get promoted and have leadership opportunities. And

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then let's not forget men who share equitably at work

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often are men who are more comfortable sharing equitably at home.

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They have deeper relationships with their family members, their own children,

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They enjoy their lives more. There is a lot in

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this for men when they lean into gender fair behavior,

420
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but we haven't shown them the with them as.

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It were.

422
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Beautifully said Bred and I couldn't agree more. You know,

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I want men to be able to enjoy the fullness

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of their life too, and not be stuck in that

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man box that you also talked about in your book.

426
00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:06.920
So let's move on to where you talk about rethinking,

427
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where when and how work happens. I talked about this

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in my book as well. I mean, I can't believe

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that we went through the great lockdown of twenty twenty

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and we saw people dual career families at home taking

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care of their families more equitably in all this, and

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I can tell you, even from my own home, I

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watched something I had never seen before. I saw our

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neighbors I call them moving caravans of reconnection. And it

435
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was people. It was the adults strolling along sipping their beverages,

436
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and the kids were merely going along with their bicycles,

437
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and the dogs were happily going along behind. And I

438
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was like, I've never seen this before. Who's going to

439
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want to give this up? And then you go on

440
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and talk about on the heels of that, and now

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here we are, we have all these organizations that are

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calling for these rigid and forced return to office ultimatums,

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which are a leap backward to the traditional workplace, and

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you go on to say people are not having it,

445
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nor should they. I completely agree. So if you could

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speak a bit to just this idea of rethinking the where,

447
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when and how of work and why it's so important

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today to serve these humans that are also caregivers and

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everything else.

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Yeah, as brad Mitt said earlier, the workplace is still

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largely the same as it was in the last century,

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and that was a workplace that was designed by potentially

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our grandparents.

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And if it worked for.

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Them, arguably, I don't know, we'd have to ask them

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and see if it really really worked for them or not.

457
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But even if it did, it doesn't work for today's

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families and certainly the people in our society. That again,

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we know that the majority of families today in the

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United States and around the world are our dual career,

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dual earner families. And they don't do that always by choice.

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A lot of times that's because they have to that

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need two paychecks to make it work. And I think

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a lot of us are in that situation where you

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just have to have that to be able to live

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that lifestyle that you're looking for many others.

467
00:23:58.400 --> 00:23:59.359
You know, since we've.

468
00:23:59.200 --> 00:24:02.559
Had the advancement of women through the last part of

469
00:24:02.599 --> 00:24:06.359
the twentieth century and women, you know, and droves going

470
00:24:06.400 --> 00:24:09.920
into the workplace but also into higher education, higher levels

471
00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:13.400
of profession out there, and you know, that's a commitment

472
00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:14.680
that's an investment in you.

473
00:24:15.039 --> 00:24:16.880
And you know personally.

474
00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:18.519
If I, if I if I went and got my PhD,

475
00:24:19.039 --> 00:24:21.480
I would want to I want to be able to

476
00:24:21.680 --> 00:24:24.519
work in that field and really get the payback on

477
00:24:24.599 --> 00:24:26.759
that and enjoy the kind of work and that I

478
00:24:26.920 --> 00:24:27.799
that I feel like I can.

479
00:24:27.720 --> 00:24:29.039
Contribute to the most.

480
00:24:29.119 --> 00:24:32.039
And so women expect that too, and it did in

481
00:24:32.039 --> 00:24:34.240
the same way that we do as men. And so again,

482
00:24:34.279 --> 00:24:36.480
you have a lot of motivations for why we have

483
00:24:36.599 --> 00:24:39.359
people in these dual career, dual earner fields. But it's

484
00:24:39.400 --> 00:24:41.599
also good for it's good for families, it's good for

485
00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:45.160
our society, it's good for our GDP, and I think

486
00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:46.720
that at the at the end of the day, those

487
00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:49.079
are all things that we were interested in doing. And

488
00:24:49.119 --> 00:24:54.000
so again, dual earner families. Guess what somebody, if we're

489
00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:57.400
both working, you want and we do have if there's

490
00:24:57.519 --> 00:25:01.079
children involved somewhere along the way or caregiving of and

491
00:25:01.119 --> 00:25:04.200
as we mentioned I think earlier, that's up to seventy

492
00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:07.839
three percent again depending on the research that you're looking at,

493
00:25:08.759 --> 00:25:11.960
of us identify as caregivers at any one moment in

494
00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:14.079
time in our workplace. And that really ought to catch

495
00:25:14.079 --> 00:25:19.079
somebody's eye and ear in senior leadership today. And so

496
00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:23.000
if we're we have caregiving responsibilities, we need to pay.

497
00:25:23.119 --> 00:25:25.920
We have two careers. Something's got to change in the

498
00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:26.880
way that we do work.

499
00:25:27.279 --> 00:25:28.640
And the other thing is that a lot of the

500
00:25:28.680 --> 00:25:32.400
workplaces today are still structured in a way that you know,

501
00:25:32.440 --> 00:25:35.160
if Henry Ford were around, he'd look at us at

502
00:25:35.160 --> 00:25:37.920
our workplaces and he go, yeah, I get this because

503
00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:40.599
it was designed after what he did, what he needed.

504
00:25:41.240 --> 00:25:44.400
And guess what, the world has moved on. Business has

505
00:25:44.440 --> 00:25:47.559
moved on, production, in society, it's all moved on, and

506
00:25:47.680 --> 00:25:50.839
yet the workplace really hasn't moved all that quickly or

507
00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:53.400
shifted and changed that much. And so this is what

508
00:25:53.440 --> 00:25:56.319
we're getting at. We know in a whole slew of

509
00:25:56.359 --> 00:25:59.119
research with people like Jodie Thompson and many others out

510
00:25:59.119 --> 00:26:03.279
there doing this work, that there are ways to restructure

511
00:26:03.640 --> 00:26:06.680
work so that it won it's good for it's good

512
00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:09.559
for your business, but two it's good for your employees too.

513
00:26:09.640 --> 00:26:12.519
It makes us more efficient, more effective, it allows us

514
00:26:12.519 --> 00:26:15.000
to have full lives. In terms of back to that

515
00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:16.960
connection you were talking about that we all kind of

516
00:26:17.160 --> 00:26:20.759
felt a little bit during lockdown of being connected to family,

517
00:26:20.839 --> 00:26:24.160
being connected to friends, and our community out there that

518
00:26:24.200 --> 00:26:26.759
everybody wants to be a part of. It's kind of

519
00:26:26.799 --> 00:26:28.720
hard to do that if you're working twenty four to seven,

520
00:26:28.880 --> 00:26:31.599
and that's kind of the expectation. And today it's even

521
00:26:31.640 --> 00:26:35.160
harder because we just can't. Even when we physically leave

522
00:26:35.240 --> 00:26:38.839
the workplace, we're still connected. And the expectation that we're

523
00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:42.279
available twenty four to seven all the time by our manager,

524
00:26:42.279 --> 00:26:45.759
our supervisor, our boss out there really makes it challenging.

525
00:26:45.799 --> 00:26:49.240
And so again we need to think about how we

526
00:26:49.279 --> 00:26:52.200
work when we work, the workflow process, just looking at

527
00:26:52.200 --> 00:26:54.640
the basics of that, and we have so much Again,

528
00:26:55.079 --> 00:26:57.640
there's a lot of hope out there today that AI

529
00:26:57.799 --> 00:26:59.720
is going to be one of those technologies that's really

530
00:26:59.759 --> 00:27:02.319
going to begin to shift that we'll see that the

531
00:27:02.759 --> 00:27:05.720
jury remains out on that one, but there's an opportunity

532
00:27:05.759 --> 00:27:07.519
that that could be it in the same way that

533
00:27:07.559 --> 00:27:10.279
we saw that maybe the Internet shifts and change how

534
00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:13.519
we work, where we work, when we work. So technology

535
00:27:13.559 --> 00:27:16.720
has a piece in this. The question is will employers

536
00:27:16.720 --> 00:27:19.279
and well those of us who are doing the research

537
00:27:19.319 --> 00:27:23.640
around this really implement practices that are designed to be

538
00:27:23.720 --> 00:27:26.920
good for business and be good for people that have families.

539
00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:30.960
There's so much more I could dig into there that

540
00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:32.920
I thought was really interesting about your book, But listeners

541
00:27:32.920 --> 00:27:34.000
and viewers are just going to have to read the

542
00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:36.759
book for yourself, as I did. But let me let

543
00:27:36.759 --> 00:27:38.640
me go onto this next bit here that I think

544
00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:41.119
is really interesting. And I did have a woman on

545
00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:43.480
my on my podcast earlier and her organization is called

546
00:27:43.559 --> 00:27:46.680
mother Cover, so she does deal with the paid caregiving

547
00:27:46.759 --> 00:27:49.960
lead issue, but she also a bit about coverage covering

548
00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:52.599
the role while you're gone as well. So I want

549
00:27:52.640 --> 00:27:54.839
to talk a little bit about this idea here of

550
00:27:55.319 --> 00:27:59.440
advocating for and fully utilizing paid caregiving leave if we

551
00:27:59.480 --> 00:28:01.359
can just kind of approach that for a bit.

552
00:28:02.119 --> 00:28:05.359
Yeah, boy, you know, this is a central issue, and

553
00:28:05.440 --> 00:28:08.960
if we're talking about paid leave, we're one of those

554
00:28:09.079 --> 00:28:15.480
few large democratic countries. It does not consistently support those

555
00:28:15.519 --> 00:28:18.720
of us who want to take caregiving leave, and it's

556
00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:22.799
often not paid. If we have it, it really depends

557
00:28:22.839 --> 00:28:24.839
on the state that you live in in terms of

558
00:28:24.839 --> 00:28:27.559
whether it's paid or not and how generous that benefit

559
00:28:27.640 --> 00:28:31.240
may be. And really we sort of are a country

560
00:28:31.240 --> 00:28:34.480
that relies on the private sector to fill the void there,

561
00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:39.440
and that's very spotty, it's inconsistent. And the history of

562
00:28:39.440 --> 00:28:42.720
that is that if anyone gets access to paid leave,

563
00:28:42.799 --> 00:28:46.359
it's often women. It's often framed as a maternity leave.

564
00:28:47.880 --> 00:28:52.000
The length of that leave may vary widely, but she's

565
00:28:52.119 --> 00:28:55.200
viewed as the primary caregiver. That's the default right. And

566
00:28:55.480 --> 00:29:00.440
if men have access, which is not a guarantee in

567
00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:03.680
a lot of companies, in a lot of states, they

568
00:29:03.880 --> 00:29:08.000
often even if it's available, maybe he gets two weeks,

569
00:29:08.119 --> 00:29:11.799
maybe he gets six weeks. He's really lucky. He's probably

570
00:29:11.799 --> 00:29:15.160
going to face stigma and headwinds when he tries to

571
00:29:15.200 --> 00:29:20.279
take that right. So the execution in many organizations means

572
00:29:20.279 --> 00:29:21.720
that a lot of men are not going to use

573
00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:24.920
their paid leave. And even when it's available, his manager

574
00:29:24.920 --> 00:29:27.359
may come to him and say, dude, come on, you've

575
00:29:27.359 --> 00:29:30.000
got a wife at home. What are you going to

576
00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:31.519
be doing cleaning your garage?

577
00:29:31.599 --> 00:29:31.920
Come on?

578
00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:34.960
You know, you know. So he's going to get that feedback.

579
00:29:35.000 --> 00:29:38.000
He's not going to take his full leave. We're not

580
00:29:38.039 --> 00:29:41.079
going to reap the benefit of that. So right now,

581
00:29:41.559 --> 00:29:44.400
leave tends to be framed as a women's issue. It's

582
00:29:44.400 --> 00:29:49.319
a maternity issue until we shift that until we degender

583
00:29:49.799 --> 00:29:53.400
are thinking about who caregivers are, make paid leave available

584
00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:57.240
for everyone, Until senior male leaders start taking their full

585
00:29:57.279 --> 00:30:01.759
paid leave and role modeling this, until are trained to

586
00:30:02.279 --> 00:30:05.680
encourage both men and women to utilize their full paid

587
00:30:05.759 --> 00:30:09.519
leave available, then this is going to be a stigmatized

588
00:30:09.720 --> 00:30:12.799
women's program. The minute women take it, they're going to

589
00:30:12.799 --> 00:30:16.480
begin falling behind because men aren't taking it and they're

590
00:30:16.519 --> 00:30:20.160
moving ahead. They're getting promotions or getting paid bumps, and

591
00:30:20.559 --> 00:30:22.000
she's never going to catch up.

592
00:30:23.279 --> 00:30:24.519
There are a couple of things on that that really

593
00:30:24.559 --> 00:30:27.279
stood out in your book. I appreciated how you have

594
00:30:27.319 --> 00:30:29.480
somebody and I think you talked to a person named

595
00:30:29.480 --> 00:30:32.119
Mangino who expressed how tired to you is of hearing

596
00:30:32.119 --> 00:30:38.519
about organizations talk about the benevolence of giving some paid

597
00:30:38.559 --> 00:30:41.279
care and staid you focus on a business case of that.

598
00:30:41.799 --> 00:30:43.200
And then the other thing that I thought was really

599
00:30:43.240 --> 00:30:47.119
interesting is that right out of the gate, if couples

600
00:30:47.119 --> 00:30:50.240
are starting out, is approaching the idea of a partnership

601
00:30:50.240 --> 00:30:53.480
with equity and then she gets the sixteen or twelve

602
00:30:53.519 --> 00:30:55.480
weeks of paid time off and he gets the two.

603
00:30:55.880 --> 00:30:57.559
Right out of the gate, they're being shaped by the

604
00:30:57.640 --> 00:31:00.759
system not to be equitable. I wanted to those two points.

605
00:31:00.799 --> 00:31:01.880
They were really powerful.

606
00:31:02.480 --> 00:31:04.559
Yeah, and we heard that story many times over, that

607
00:31:04.720 --> 00:31:07.920
story of couples who wanted to be very equal in

608
00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:12.039
terms of how they approached their marriage or partnership and

609
00:31:12.440 --> 00:31:15.319
had plans even you know, as when children came into

610
00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:17.559
the picture, that it would be the same thing from

611
00:31:17.599 --> 00:31:21.319
a care perspective, they would split things equally along the way.

612
00:31:21.359 --> 00:31:23.720
But they said, again, when everything.

613
00:31:23.359 --> 00:31:25.599
Worked out pretty well right up to the point where

614
00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:28.079
kids were born, and then the minute kids come into

615
00:31:28.160 --> 00:31:30.599
the picture, it's like the workplace is not structured from

616
00:31:30.599 --> 00:31:33.759
a care perspective to allow men to be doing that,

617
00:31:34.079 --> 00:31:36.519
and it makes it very easy for women to right

618
00:31:36.559 --> 00:31:39.160
and so you very quickly they look back after ten

619
00:31:39.160 --> 00:31:39.960
to fifteen.

620
00:31:39.680 --> 00:31:41.519
Years and they're like, how did we get here?

621
00:31:42.359 --> 00:31:45.279
And it's just that path of least resistance And that's

622
00:31:45.319 --> 00:31:47.599
the structure, right, that's the structure of work and the

623
00:31:47.640 --> 00:31:50.559
practices and the policies that we have that are pushing

624
00:31:50.559 --> 00:31:52.839
people in that direction, which.

625
00:31:52.680 --> 00:31:56.039
Is what three of us stand to help change. Let's

626
00:31:56.079 --> 00:31:59.160
just do it faster, shall we. Let's grab our last break.

627
00:31:59.160 --> 00:32:01.359
I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes root on the air

628
00:32:01.359 --> 00:32:04.000
with doctors David Smith and Brad Johnson, who have spent

629
00:32:04.119 --> 00:32:06.880
the past decade deeply engaged in gender inclusion and equity

630
00:32:06.880 --> 00:32:09.720
at work. We've been talking about the importance of stewarding

631
00:32:09.799 --> 00:32:13.960
and baking in caregiving capability in the workplace. In this

632
00:32:14.039 --> 00:32:16.960
last segment, we're going to talk about operationalizing fairness across

633
00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:18.359
the operation. We'll be right back.

634
00:32:33.920 --> 00:32:37.480
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning

635
00:32:37.519 --> 00:32:41.319
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies

636
00:32:41.400 --> 00:32:45.200
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired

637
00:32:45.279 --> 00:32:49.279
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and

638
00:32:49.319 --> 00:32:52.559
commitment within the workforce. To learn more, or to invite

639
00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:55.319
at least to speak to your organization, please visit her

640
00:32:55.359 --> 00:32:58.599
at eliscortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get

641
00:32:58.640 --> 00:33:07.440
your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose

642
00:33:07.559 --> 00:33:10.799
with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or

643
00:33:10.839 --> 00:33:13.599
to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to

644
00:33:13.680 --> 00:33:19.200
Alise A Lisee at elisecortes dot com. Now back to

645
00:33:19.359 --> 00:33:20.480
working on Purpose.

646
00:33:25.640 --> 00:33:27.359
Thanks for saying with us, and welcome back to working

647
00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:29.960
on purpose. I'm your host, doctor Release Cortes. As you

648
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:32.359
know by now, this program is dedicated to empowering and

649
00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:35.240
inspiring you along your journey to realize more of your potential.

650
00:33:35.640 --> 00:33:38.920
I mentioned in my last book, The Great Road Decision

651
00:33:38.920 --> 00:33:41.200
contains twenty two best project is to help keep and

652
00:33:41.279 --> 00:33:43.000
elevate your culture to get where you need to be

653
00:33:43.039 --> 00:33:45.960
for today's world. I created for you a very simple

654
00:33:46.000 --> 00:33:48.319
three page assessment to learn just how you're faring as

655
00:33:48.359 --> 00:33:51.359
a destination workplace. You can find that assessment for free

656
00:33:51.400 --> 00:33:54.440
at gustodesh now dot com if you are just now

657
00:33:54.519 --> 00:33:57.480
joining us. My guests are doctors Brad Johnson and David Smith,

658
00:33:57.519 --> 00:34:00.200
authors of Share How Many and Women can Go create

659
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:04.200
a more equable workplace together. So for this last segment here,

660
00:34:04.319 --> 00:34:06.440
we wanted to focus on the third part of your book,

661
00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:10.239
the third point, operationalizing fairness across the organization. And I

662
00:34:10.280 --> 00:34:13.559
want to start by reading some really sobering stats here

663
00:34:13.679 --> 00:34:16.239
Sist and get you to sort of give us a

664
00:34:16.280 --> 00:34:18.079
further take on that. So you say in your book,

665
00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:21.679
on our current trajectory, we will not witness global gender

666
00:34:21.760 --> 00:34:25.599
equality until sometime well into the twenty second century. According

667
00:34:25.639 --> 00:34:29.239
to a twenty twenty four United Nations report, despite widespread

668
00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:31.719
you in support to close the gender disparity gap by

669
00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:35.880
twenty thirty, the World Economic Forum corroborates you and estimates

670
00:34:35.880 --> 00:34:38.480
and projects projects that it will take one hundred and

671
00:34:38.480 --> 00:34:42.760
thirty four years to reach full parody, approximately five generations

672
00:34:42.760 --> 00:34:45.880
beyond the twenty thirty target, and roughly forty percent of

673
00:34:45.880 --> 00:34:49.360
countries representing more than one billion women and girls. Progress

674
00:34:49.400 --> 00:34:52.719
toward gender equality has stalled out or worth declined in

675
00:34:52.800 --> 00:34:55.239
recent years. That is incredibly depressing.

676
00:34:59.480 --> 00:35:01.920
It is fair depressing, and I've got to be I'm

677
00:35:01.920 --> 00:35:05.000
going to make it more depressing. We're actually taking a

678
00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:09.280
few steps backward right recently in terms of women's engagement

679
00:35:10.960 --> 00:35:14.760
in the workforce, especially in our own economy here in

680
00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:20.119
the US. So it's sobering. It reflects the lack of progress.

681
00:35:20.199 --> 00:35:24.360
It reflects the lack of commitment, particularly in our own democracy,

682
00:35:24.559 --> 00:35:29.360
to taking seriously the burden of caregiving and working parents

683
00:35:30.440 --> 00:35:33.599
and thinking about how we provide benefits that are actually

684
00:35:33.599 --> 00:35:37.800
going to work so that women can lend their full

685
00:35:38.159 --> 00:35:42.519
creativity and brilliance to the workplace, so we reap all

686
00:35:42.559 --> 00:35:45.719
of that GDP. I think we're looking at twenty three

687
00:35:45.880 --> 00:35:49.880
twenty seven trillion dollars. If women across the globe were

688
00:35:50.239 --> 00:35:53.559
fully engaged at the rate of men in the economy,

689
00:35:54.079 --> 00:35:58.559
that's all on the table, but we're not embracing the

690
00:35:58.639 --> 00:36:01.199
kind of workplace change to get us here.

691
00:36:03.760 --> 00:36:06.679
Yeah, So what I what I hope for for that

692
00:36:06.840 --> 00:36:09.400
point that that Brad just made listeners and viewers, let's

693
00:36:09.440 --> 00:36:11.199
you know, let's you know, stand up and be a

694
00:36:11.199 --> 00:36:12.960
little bit more vocal about these sort of things. That's

695
00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:14.679
I think that's the waything's going to change, or at

696
00:36:14.760 --> 00:36:19.280
least change faster. So encourage that. One of the many

697
00:36:19.320 --> 00:36:22.239
things I appreciate about your your work and how you

698
00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:24.119
you you put forth how to go forward with us.

699
00:36:24.199 --> 00:36:27.719
You talk about measurement, and so one of the things

700
00:36:27.719 --> 00:36:29.760
you do is you talk about measuring your progress over

701
00:36:29.800 --> 00:36:32.440
time and and of course assessing the gender relevant outcomes

702
00:36:32.440 --> 00:36:34.639
of existing practices to see what's working and what could

703
00:36:34.639 --> 00:36:38.280
be improved. So I want to if you could just

704
00:36:38.360 --> 00:36:41.400
hit a bit on the notion of first, you know,

705
00:36:41.840 --> 00:36:44.320
you mentioned that it's important that inside organizations that you

706
00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:47.079
allow your team members to self identify are they are

707
00:36:47.119 --> 00:36:50.199
they caregivers? And that right there is I think would

708
00:36:50.239 --> 00:36:53.400
be really sobering in very awakening for a lot of leaders.

709
00:36:53.760 --> 00:36:56.159
But could you speak a bit about how they can

710
00:36:56.199 --> 00:36:58.599
talk about start to get into the idea of measuring

711
00:36:58.639 --> 00:37:01.000
gender fairness and ask the right questions.

712
00:37:02.360 --> 00:37:06.159
Yeah, and this is a really challenging issue, especially in

713
00:37:06.199 --> 00:37:10.480
the United States, with the idea of caregivers and caregiver

714
00:37:10.639 --> 00:37:13.800
the caregiving identity of being able to ask about it

715
00:37:13.880 --> 00:37:16.840
and you know, whether that's or talk about it in

716
00:37:16.880 --> 00:37:18.679
a variety of different ways, and that can be everything

717
00:37:18.719 --> 00:37:22.039
from recruiting and hiring and the challenge right of understanding

718
00:37:22.519 --> 00:37:25.760
you know, somebody's situation as they're coming into your organization,

719
00:37:26.440 --> 00:37:29.400
uh to retention and an advancement of people in your

720
00:37:29.519 --> 00:37:33.639
organization as well. And so there's a there's definitely uh

721
00:37:33.679 --> 00:37:38.480
a you know, hesitancy amongst employers and managers to ask

722
00:37:38.559 --> 00:37:41.079
those kind of questions or to even have those kinds

723
00:37:41.079 --> 00:37:43.960
of conversations because they're just concerned that they're going to

724
00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:46.559
get sued, there's going to be litigation involved in some way,

725
00:37:46.599 --> 00:37:49.880
and so they don't they don't ask, they don't know,

726
00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:55.000
and in many ways they miss opportunities to really begin

727
00:37:55.039 --> 00:37:59.480
to get insights into the caregiving population that they have

728
00:38:00.119 --> 00:38:03.760
and women across their organization. What are the challenges that

729
00:38:03.800 --> 00:38:07.039
they're facing, what are their needs? What are they offer?

730
00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:09.840
Probably a host of different kinds of benefits, but they

731
00:38:09.840 --> 00:38:12.920
probably have no idea if they're actually meeting the demand

732
00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:16.800
signal because they don't know their population and their needs

733
00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:19.840
out there, and so this hesitancy is a real challenge

734
00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:22.159
for us. The flip side of that is just as bad,

735
00:38:22.280 --> 00:38:25.239
and that is that as employees, we don't want to

736
00:38:25.280 --> 00:38:27.679
divulge to that identity. We don't want to talk about

737
00:38:27.719 --> 00:38:31.159
it because I'm afraid of exactly what your employer is

738
00:38:31.199 --> 00:38:32.400
worried about, and that is that.

739
00:38:32.320 --> 00:38:34.239
They think they're going to be discriminated against.

740
00:38:34.320 --> 00:38:37.559
And there's actually evidence that shows that you probably will

741
00:38:37.599 --> 00:38:41.119
be in some way discriminated against, whether you're a man

742
00:38:41.239 --> 00:38:44.039
or a woman, a mother or a father, a caregiver

743
00:38:44.159 --> 00:38:47.679
of any kind out there. There's a lot of challenges

744
00:38:47.800 --> 00:38:51.679
with with your managers, and so we don't we don't

745
00:38:51.960 --> 00:38:54.800
we hide it. And this is this is another problem

746
00:38:54.880 --> 00:38:57.159
that we have in the workplace today, is that if

747
00:38:57.159 --> 00:38:59.679
I come to work and I'm hiding my one of

748
00:38:59.679 --> 00:39:03.719
my important identities out there, one that takes energy for

749
00:39:03.760 --> 00:39:05.639
me to do that, to hide it and to keep

750
00:39:05.639 --> 00:39:09.119
it from people, especially my manager out there. But I'm

751
00:39:09.159 --> 00:39:13.719
also dealing with stressors and strains. I have different challenges

752
00:39:13.719 --> 00:39:16.000
that I'm facing where I could use some different kinds

753
00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:18.880
of support that my employer could probably help with. In

754
00:39:18.920 --> 00:39:21.800
some cases that may not even cost money. It may

755
00:39:21.960 --> 00:39:24.880
just be an adjustment in terms of when I work,

756
00:39:24.960 --> 00:39:27.719
or how I work or where I work. But anyway,

757
00:39:27.760 --> 00:39:30.119
there's a lot of benefits that could come if I

758
00:39:30.159 --> 00:39:33.079
could talk about those things. And so we have a

759
00:39:33.119 --> 00:39:35.719
lot of caregivers today that are dealing with a lot

760
00:39:35.760 --> 00:39:38.360
of added stress and we hear so much in the

761
00:39:38.360 --> 00:39:41.719
research about mental health and in the news about burnout

762
00:39:42.559 --> 00:39:45.679
that comes for men and for women. There was a

763
00:39:45.719 --> 00:39:50.199
recent study done after the pandemic asking these were professional

764
00:39:50.440 --> 00:39:53.559
white collar men, asking them about some of the different

765
00:39:53.559 --> 00:39:56.400
stressors they had in the workplace and the number one

766
00:39:56.519 --> 00:40:00.800
stressor that they pointed out that was causing them burnout

767
00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:03.800
and you know, ideas about you know, can they continue

768
00:40:03.800 --> 00:40:08.199
in this in this role was work family conflict and

769
00:40:08.239 --> 00:40:10.480
the work life stressors that they were facing, and they

770
00:40:10.480 --> 00:40:12.159
didn't know what to do or how to handle it.

771
00:40:12.199 --> 00:40:14.599
They didn't have the kind of support that they felt

772
00:40:14.639 --> 00:40:16.920
they needed to be able to get through that. And

773
00:40:16.960 --> 00:40:21.199
so again, this is a this is a really big challenge,

774
00:40:21.599 --> 00:40:24.119
and in too many ways we've kind of focused this

775
00:40:24.360 --> 00:40:27.639
a lot on childcare, which is important, but I think

776
00:40:27.679 --> 00:40:30.840
for most of us who've had children, when when you

777
00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:34.119
had your first child, I didn't have to look very

778
00:40:34.159 --> 00:40:36.679
far to find support, and I certainly didn't have to

779
00:40:36.679 --> 00:40:39.800
look very far to find resources or somebody to tell me, hey,

780
00:40:39.800 --> 00:40:43.320
what do you do when or if these things happened?

781
00:40:43.480 --> 00:40:46.360
I had plenty of resources to go to to find that.

782
00:40:48.320 --> 00:40:50.719
The challenge today is that many of us are not

783
00:40:51.000 --> 00:40:54.440
only child doing childcare, many of us are doing elder

784
00:40:54.480 --> 00:40:59.239
care too, And this is an important demographic shift that again,

785
00:40:59.280 --> 00:41:02.280
as we think about what we're measuring and how we're

786
00:41:02.320 --> 00:41:06.679
monitoring this across our workforce, we have an aging workforce today.

787
00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:10.280
That demographic is growing where people are living longer. People

788
00:41:10.360 --> 00:41:12.880
have to work longer because they can't afford to retire

789
00:41:13.000 --> 00:41:15.880
in the same way that they could many many decades ago.

790
00:41:16.079 --> 00:41:18.239
They don't have the same kind of pensions and benefits

791
00:41:18.239 --> 00:41:21.599
to do that, so they're working longer as well. And

792
00:41:21.679 --> 00:41:24.360
again with people working longer, people living longer where there's

793
00:41:24.400 --> 00:41:27.239
more elder care associated with that. And I think one

794
00:41:27.239 --> 00:41:31.159
of the really interesting statistics that I think always shocks

795
00:41:31.199 --> 00:41:33.079
us when we talk about it is when you look

796
00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:35.800
at the largest generation within the workforce today, and that's

797
00:41:35.840 --> 00:41:40.719
the millennials, almost half of them half identify as being

798
00:41:40.840 --> 00:41:44.360
Sandwich care generation. And that's the generation that, hey, they're

799
00:41:44.400 --> 00:41:47.119
raising kids at home today at the same time, they're

800
00:41:47.119 --> 00:41:50.000
doing elder care. They're caring for that elderly parent at

801
00:41:50.039 --> 00:41:52.840
the same time, and that's just a whole nother world

802
00:41:53.079 --> 00:41:57.519
of really stress around care. And again, their workforce, their

803
00:41:57.920 --> 00:42:01.360
employer probably has no idea what's going on there or

804
00:42:01.400 --> 00:42:04.039
how they could be supporting them well.

805
00:42:04.079 --> 00:42:07.000
And David and Brad, that is precisely why you hear

806
00:42:07.079 --> 00:42:09.519
us talk about what we do as we help organizations

807
00:42:09.519 --> 00:42:13.199
to find that energy and capacity that's there that is

808
00:42:13.360 --> 00:42:16.760
being pretzeled, as you say, into having to conform into

809
00:42:16.840 --> 00:42:20.159
these ridiculous standards. That if you stop imposing these kinds

810
00:42:20.199 --> 00:42:22.519
of standards, you would release all of the s energy

811
00:42:22.519 --> 00:42:25.880
and capacity that's there that you're blocking. That's the reason

812
00:42:25.920 --> 00:42:28.679
that we describe our work that way. Yeah.

813
00:42:28.760 --> 00:42:30.800
Yeah, and we see that you know in the research too,

814
00:42:31.079 --> 00:42:33.400
and I'm sure you've seen it as well. You know,

815
00:42:33.920 --> 00:42:36.480
engagements one of our favorites, right, and so we have

816
00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:39.920
one of the lowest workforce engagement rates around the world

817
00:42:40.039 --> 00:42:42.599
in the US. And a lot of it is because

818
00:42:43.000 --> 00:42:45.480
it's all that pent up, right, it's all that energy,

819
00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:49.239
that focus, that ability to really thrive in the workplace.

820
00:42:49.519 --> 00:42:52.559
It's being held back, right because I've got so much

821
00:42:52.599 --> 00:42:54.559
else on my mind. I'm dealing with so many other

822
00:42:54.599 --> 00:42:56.639
things that I can't focus on my work in the

823
00:42:56.639 --> 00:42:57.400
way that I need to.

824
00:42:57.679 --> 00:42:59.800
Yeah, you make it impossible for me to give my best.

825
00:43:00.239 --> 00:43:02.519
You're just getting a portion of what I could actually deliver.

826
00:43:02.679 --> 00:43:04.360
And that's what we're out to liberate.

827
00:43:04.440 --> 00:43:05.719
So totally missing.

828
00:43:05.960 --> 00:43:08.039
And one really important part of this is we're getting

829
00:43:08.039 --> 00:43:09.840
close to our time together. That I have to make

830
00:43:09.840 --> 00:43:11.960
sure we talk about because we also address this in

831
00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:14.719
our work. Is you talk about how gender fair workplaces

832
00:43:14.760 --> 00:43:17.800
blossom only when we bring managers along with us. So

833
00:43:17.840 --> 00:43:19.800
we have to train managers to know how to have

834
00:43:19.880 --> 00:43:24.320
conversations about these things, about caregiving, about supporting the full

835
00:43:24.440 --> 00:43:26.880
human that is that we depend on to deliver the work.

836
00:43:27.639 --> 00:43:29.400
So if you could speak of it about just the

837
00:43:29.400 --> 00:43:32.599
importance of preparing managers for gender inclusive leadership.

838
00:43:33.239 --> 00:43:36.840
Yes, well, you know, one of the people that we interviewed,

839
00:43:37.280 --> 00:43:43.159
Michael Chamberlain, describe managers, frontline managers as your sins makers,

840
00:43:43.960 --> 00:43:46.840
and I think that really is kind of spot on.

841
00:43:47.320 --> 00:43:51.360
So think about who we elevate to managerial roles. It's

842
00:43:51.400 --> 00:43:56.480
often not people who necessarily have terrific EQ and are

843
00:43:56.519 --> 00:44:00.159
great relationally and are terrific listeners. These are off and

844
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:04.000
people who have been good primary contributors, maybe good sales folks.

845
00:44:04.159 --> 00:44:07.679
Really depends on where they happen to be working. But

846
00:44:07.760 --> 00:44:11.079
we often elevate people in the basis of technical skill,

847
00:44:11.880 --> 00:44:16.039
not human skill, and then we assume that well, that

848
00:44:16.119 --> 00:44:19.159
manager can go forward and execute all our gender fear

849
00:44:20.639 --> 00:44:25.039
agendas and benefit programs, and that turns out not to

850
00:44:25.039 --> 00:44:27.559
be the case. So we mentioned paid leave is just

851
00:44:27.639 --> 00:44:32.039
one instance that manager may feel like they don't have

852
00:44:32.079 --> 00:44:35.519
any kind of top cover when he wants to go

853
00:44:35.639 --> 00:44:39.760
on paid leave. Right, it's caregiving. Maybe they're expecting a child,

854
00:44:40.239 --> 00:44:43.639
but boy, I see him as a secondary caregiver. It's

855
00:44:43.679 --> 00:44:45.519
going to be a huge hassle for me to have

856
00:44:45.559 --> 00:44:48.960
to cover his shifts. So I'm going to push back

857
00:44:49.440 --> 00:44:51.480
when he wants to take leave because I don't think

858
00:44:51.519 --> 00:44:54.000
anybody above me is going to give me the top

859
00:44:54.079 --> 00:44:58.000
cover to actually cover this person's shift when they're gone.

860
00:44:58.480 --> 00:45:01.360
So that's often what's going on on. We leave managers

861
00:45:01.400 --> 00:45:04.119
out on their own, We leave them hanging. We don't

862
00:45:04.199 --> 00:45:07.480
prepare them, we don't select them carefully first of all,

863
00:45:07.719 --> 00:45:10.840
then we don't train them so that they can have

864
00:45:10.960 --> 00:45:14.199
these conversations. Let me just give you one illustration related

865
00:45:14.199 --> 00:45:18.480
to caregiving. Often, when it comes to losing women from

866
00:45:18.519 --> 00:45:23.239
your company, the key point of loss is around what

867
00:45:23.280 --> 00:45:26.320
we think of as a fifth trimester. Lauren Brody coin

868
00:45:26.440 --> 00:45:29.639
that term right. So she is coming back from her

869
00:45:29.719 --> 00:45:33.199
caregiving leave. She feels like she's failing as a mother

870
00:45:33.320 --> 00:45:36.360
because she just dropped her child off at childcare. That's

871
00:45:36.360 --> 00:45:39.039
stressing her. Now she shows up at the workplace, she

872
00:45:39.079 --> 00:45:44.239
feels very far behind. If that manager isn't aware of

873
00:45:44.280 --> 00:45:48.760
the fifth trimester, isn't aware of those stressers, isn't thoughtful

874
00:45:48.800 --> 00:45:53.280
about how the company could accommodate, provide flex work, provide

875
00:45:53.320 --> 00:45:57.639
emotional support, really sort of circle the wagons for her.

876
00:45:57.719 --> 00:46:00.599
In that moment, there's a high probability you're going to

877
00:46:00.639 --> 00:46:03.320
lose her, You're going to have attrition of a really

878
00:46:03.480 --> 00:46:07.880
great performer. And that's often what we're seeing in the workplace.

879
00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:10.880
So we don't want to blame that sense maker, that manager.

880
00:46:11.360 --> 00:46:14.719
We're often looking up at the company and asking why

881
00:46:14.840 --> 00:46:18.559
wasn't this person ready to show up in the moment

882
00:46:18.599 --> 00:46:19.719
where he needed to show up.

883
00:46:20.320 --> 00:46:22.559
Yeah, So all we have a program called managing through

884
00:46:22.599 --> 00:46:25.239
Meaning which really does treat the whole person. So that

885
00:46:25.760 --> 00:46:28.239
is definitely well, probably thanks to you add a little

886
00:46:28.280 --> 00:46:31.239
bit in there about this notion of the caregiving support

887
00:46:31.239 --> 00:46:34.039
piece of it. So thank you guys for that. As

888
00:46:34.079 --> 00:46:36.320
we come to a close here, there's two things if

889
00:46:36.400 --> 00:46:38.679
we could just have you comment on as we go forth.

890
00:46:39.079 --> 00:46:41.840
You talk about the importance of going heavier inspiration. We're

891
00:46:41.880 --> 00:46:45.239
all about inspiration, and I love the idea of really

892
00:46:45.719 --> 00:46:49.679
setting the stage that we can together transform managers into

893
00:46:49.679 --> 00:46:53.280
allies and collaborators for a gender fare workplace and take

894
00:46:53.320 --> 00:46:56.440
steps to avoid that triggering resistance and to really paint

895
00:46:56.440 --> 00:46:57.960
the picture of what's in it for all of us.

896
00:46:58.000 --> 00:47:00.719
How much better our full lives are when we get

897
00:47:00.719 --> 00:47:04.360
this right, not just women, men, everybody right, And so

898
00:47:04.400 --> 00:47:07.480
you have a couple of strong calls to action here,

899
00:47:07.519 --> 00:47:10.039
but I want to just read one of them here

900
00:47:10.079 --> 00:47:12.199
that I think is really important and lets you comment

901
00:47:12.280 --> 00:47:15.280
and we'll close out you say. We call on you leaders,

902
00:47:15.320 --> 00:47:18.320
no matter your level, no matter your gender, to once

903
00:47:18.360 --> 00:47:20.559
more step into the breach and lead with the courage.

904
00:47:20.599 --> 00:47:24.079
This moment demands change doesn't always begin with sweeping gestures.

905
00:47:24.320 --> 00:47:26.719
It starts with daily choices at work and at home.

906
00:47:27.079 --> 00:47:29.800
Claim responsibility as your own and inspire others to walk

907
00:47:29.840 --> 00:47:32.360
with you. When you do, you create organizations where growth

908
00:47:32.360 --> 00:47:34.960
and leadership are open to all, where people have the

909
00:47:35.000 --> 00:47:37.320
time and space for their lives, where they can bring

910
00:47:37.360 --> 00:47:40.000
their whole selves to work, and where fairness is not

911
00:47:40.079 --> 00:47:41.719
an aspiration but a standard.

912
00:47:42.880 --> 00:47:48.559
Here here, gentlemen, here here, Yeah, so important that we

913
00:47:49.239 --> 00:47:53.000
one we as leaders. We share our stories, share share

914
00:47:53.039 --> 00:47:55.920
your personal narra about why this is important. Be open

915
00:47:55.960 --> 00:48:01.400
to understanding others' experiences, because again, too often we're shielded

916
00:48:01.400 --> 00:48:04.840
and protected from that information that we really need out there.

917
00:48:05.079 --> 00:48:06.960
And then the last part of that is really about

918
00:48:06.960 --> 00:48:11.199
that walking out there and being in front and role modeling,

919
00:48:11.280 --> 00:48:13.920
letting people see what it looks like when you do

920
00:48:13.960 --> 00:48:14.320
it right.

921
00:48:15.519 --> 00:48:18.559
Yeah, yeah, I'm going to echo that, doctor Cortez, and

922
00:48:18.679 --> 00:48:22.800
you know just often this mantra if you happen to

923
00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:25.239
be a leader, especially if you happen to be a

924
00:48:25.280 --> 00:48:30.519
male leader, which we often see in organizations, please leave loudly.

925
00:48:30.800 --> 00:48:33.840
And what I mean by that is, don't hide the

926
00:48:33.880 --> 00:48:37.599
fact that you have caregiving responsibilities to most of us do.

927
00:48:38.320 --> 00:48:40.119
When you have to stay home with a sick kid

928
00:48:40.280 --> 00:48:43.159
or go to a family event, please tell everyone.

929
00:48:42.840 --> 00:48:44.440
You're going make that normal.

930
00:48:44.599 --> 00:48:48.559
Yes, everyone's looking at you, and you know, women who

931
00:48:48.679 --> 00:48:50.840
carry the line and share of this, and junior men

932
00:48:50.880 --> 00:48:54.519
who want to have lives outside of work, they need

933
00:48:54.559 --> 00:48:57.280
to see you role modeling this. So please leave loudly.

934
00:48:58.880 --> 00:49:01.760
Thank you so much, Trus Johnson and Smith. It has

935
00:49:01.840 --> 00:49:05.119
been just a delight to learn from you. I treasured

936
00:49:05.159 --> 00:49:07.320
your book. I read my guestbooks cover to cover, take

937
00:49:07.320 --> 00:49:09.519
a lot of research notes from it, and I'm delighted

938
00:49:09.519 --> 00:49:11.280
to share with my listeners and viewers around the world.

939
00:49:11.599 --> 00:49:13.440
Thank you so much for being on working on purpose.

940
00:49:14.440 --> 00:49:16.039
Thank you, thanks for having us.

941
00:49:16.679 --> 00:49:18.440
Listeners and viewers. You are going to want to learn

942
00:49:18.440 --> 00:49:20.960
more about doctor Brad Johnson and doctor David Smith, the

943
00:49:21.039 --> 00:49:23.960
work they do in gender inclusion and equity work and

944
00:49:24.320 --> 00:49:27.079
their new book fair Share. You can start by visiting

945
00:49:27.079 --> 00:49:32.119
their website Workplace Allies dot com again Workplace allies dot com.

946
00:49:32.679 --> 00:49:34.280
Last week, if you missed the live show, you can

947
00:49:34.320 --> 00:49:36.800
always catch it be recorded podcast. We're on air with

948
00:49:36.840 --> 00:49:40.360
Opel Malden Jones, City manager of Lancaster, which is a

949
00:49:40.400 --> 00:49:43.480
suburb outside of Dallas, talking about her approach to pour

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into and grow her throughder and twenty city employees by

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offering various professional development training opportunities to better serve the

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city and its residents. It was an incredibly inspiring conversation

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that I helps that will help all of us see

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the importance of constantly learning and growing together. Next week

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will be on air with doctor ro Mushtak. She's a

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medical doctor, talking about her book The Busy Brain Cure,

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The eight Week Plan to Find Time, Tame Anxiety and

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00:50:08.039 --> 00:50:11.480
Sleep Again, the medical self help book for adult ADHD,

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burnout and stress Management. Like we need all of those

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things today, It's so true. See you. Then, let's continue

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leaning in to help more people flourish, elevate your operating

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system as a leader, and create destination workplaces where legendary

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business takes place. Let's work on Purpose.

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We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to

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tune into Working on Purpose, featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes,

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each week on W four C. Why Together, We'll create

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a world where business operates conscientiously. Leadership inspires and passion

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performance and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the

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meaning and purpose They crave. See you there, Let's work

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on Purpose.