Lead Like a Comic: Read the Room, Win the Crowd

0:02 What's working on purpose anyway? Each week, we ponder the answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their highest potential. Business can be such a force for good in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we all want, working on purpose. Now, here's your host, Dr. Elise Cortez. Welcome back to Working on Purpose program, brought to you with Passion Enterprise since February of 2015. Thanks for tuning in this week. Great to have you. I'm your host, Dr.

0:43 Elise Cortez, organizational psychologist, workforce advisor, Vistage Chair, and the founder of Gusto Now. We equip mission and impact-driven companies to ignite the potential of their people, leaders, and cultures by providing training and development and activating meaning and purpose in everyday operations. The result? Greater commitment, stronger performance, deeper stakeholder loyalty, and a distinctive competitive advantage in the marketplace. You can learn more about us at gusto-now.com, or you can visit elisecortez.com for information on my speaking and my books. Getting into today's program, we have with us David Goldring. He's the chairman and CEO of Overseas Military Sales Corporation, where he has spent more than three decades leading and growing a global automotive business, serving U.S. military, diplomatic, and international communities. Alongside his executive career, David is also a stand-up comedian, performing regularly and drawing powerful parallels between the stage and the boardroom. He's the author of Stand Up and Lead. Turning Comedy into Leadership, which we're talking about today.

1:42 He joins us today from New York. David, a hearty welcome to Working on Purpose. Hey, how you doing? How is everybody out there? You having a good time? Hey, how you doing? We are, and I know that's what we say is you're a comedian, I'm an improv person, right? So I do my stuff in group, you do yours solo. A lot more respect for what you do. But part of the reason I wanted to have you on, David, because I know the power of comedy and I know the power of The spontaneity and learning to listen and be attentive to the crowd, which is part of the reason I wanted to have you on. I know the power of that, and I want to share with my listeners and viewers around the world. Okay, well, first, I entered bearing gifts. Isn't that the first rule in improv? Enter yes and and enter bearing gifts.

2:22 Yes and. And yes and. Yes and. And yes and. Let's celebrate this thing that you brought into the world, this beautiful book. I loved it. Stand up and lead. I really aligned with so much of it. There isn't anything in there really that I can't really, you know, align with. So let's just kind of kick in here if we can. I want to start, if we can, with the story you tell in your book. I believe you were introduced to comedy by a girlfriend. I'm not sure what happened before that, but you certainly talk about a story of the girl being pretty prominent in this journey. So, yeah, I had worked in advertising, and I remember the agency said, this was during the mergers of the 80s, and the agency, I remember a big meeting in the boardroom, and you know, in the hallway. And the CEO said, we're not going to merge.

3:11 It was with merging with that WPP. And we're not going to merge. We're going to maintain our, our autistic integrity. We won't win. We can't be bought. And so the next day, the next day they merged, it was all over the newspaper. And so I was obviously very bummed out and depressed and felt lied to and betrayed. And so I went out as a, you know, my, my girlfriend at the time was a singer slash model slash actress and, And so I felt myself feel a little better. I wanted to perform in cabaret. And I couldn't get that feeling. She was able to make people laugh when she wanted to, cry when she wanted to. She had the whole room. She was influencing the whole room.

3:53 And I couldn't get that feeling of influencing is leading. And I was just magical how she could kind of lead the audience where she. Wanted them to go. And they were putting in their hands, except I wasn't because we subsequently broke up, but nonetheless, I, we broke up, but I couldn't get that feeling out of my head. And so I, you know, what am I going to do? So I, I really wanted that feeling. I couldn't sing. I couldn't dance. I couldn't act, but I was always funny. So I tried my, I answered some ad in the, in some paper about an open mic opportunity. And so I, I said, okay, I'll try it. And I, uh, the whole, the whole thing was to fill, you know, I invited all my friends and it was like, it was like at six o'clock in the morning, in the afternoon where you, you fill the audience with your friends.

4:44 Cause all the clubs have closed basically before eight. So they let you bring as many. People as you wanted. And I filled the audience with all my friends and I killed, I was horrible, but you know, they were my friends. I could have read a phone book, you know, and they would have laughed. And, um, I got that feeling. I got that feeling of that, you know, it's like when you hit a perfect cross-court forehand in tennis or a perfect S-curve in skiing. You know, I got that feeling, and I felt what it's supposed to feel like. So I tried it again, and I was horrible. I didn't have my friends. I was up alone. It was an audience that didn't know me, and I sucked. I was really bad. But I used that, but I had felt the feeling, you know, and so I used that failure to kind of propel me to future success. So that was my, yeah, so it's the girlfriend, but I always, she got me started in this crazy thing.

5:40 Okay, so I would be remiss if I let you go without talking more about that feeling. Okay, I want you to describe that with as much description as you can, because it's that feeling, David, that we at Gusto Now are out to help more people find, feel, and live with. Tell us about that feeling. What does it feel like? When you. See the people nodding their heads and laughing and relaxing and the body language and they're just engaged and they want to be led and they're listening and they're relating and they're trusting you. I think that's the key. They're trusting you. it's just, it's incredibly powerful.

6:24 And, you know, and so I'm jumping ahead of myself, but that's the feeling that I, you know, I, I brought to my, my leadership, my leadership and joining an organization is that same kind of connection and that engagement I built on the stage. Yeah. And, and so that's that, you know, part of what I might also add in there, if what I'm hearing, you tell me if I got this right is, is there's also this feeling of just coming alive and being like at the top of your game almost, but in knowing that you're just, you are connected, powerfully connected to these humans. And in so doing, you create a force together that's greater than the sum of its parts. Right. I mean, I came alive with the reciprocity of laughter. Yes.

7:05 You know, unlike other artist forms, you have to have an audience, you know. Right. Actors certainly can perform by themselves, you know, and musicians certainly can, but, you know, a comedian without a laugh is, it's not a, you know, you gotta have it, it's a completely collaborative partnership. And as Jerry Seinfeld said, comedy is not a monologue, it's a dialogue between you and your, you and the listener. So, you. Get, you just get energized by the reciprocity of the laughter and the feeling that you know, this person's, you know, leaving bed feeling better than they, when they came in, you know, and for that brief shining moment, they're forgetting their problems.

7:55 It's really very powerful. Doing them a service. So as we go, of course, we'll be talking and threading through how all of these things that you learned as being a comedian have informed how you lead. And I know that, you know, what you've been talking about there, that connection piece is a really important part of how you lead. I know another big part of how you lead is has to do with vulnerability. And one of the ways that you discovered that early on is you effed up. And then you said, so you admitted that you were in front of a tough crowd of other comedians who didn't want to laugh. And you said, you know what? I just missed my line. Exactly. You admitted it. And in so doing, then you delivered it and they laughed. Exactly. I was going through my routine, you know, doing my tip.

8:37 It was a typical Thursday night, you know, early show. a bunch of comics, a couple of stragglers, and no one was going to laugh. They didn't want to laugh. They weren't going to laugh. It was not a laughing crowd. And they looked like a. Dutch oil painting, you know, all stone-faced and everything. And I said, I get back to my routine, and I fucked up a line. I said, damn, I effed up. And that got a laugh. I broke the wall. It was like, they, you know, that mess up was funnier probably than the actual joke. Would have been. They, you know, acknowledging it, owning it, owning the stumble, recognizing it, it really unleashed this kind of, this.

9:25 Energy that I wouldn't have had had I not admitted it. If I just kind of tight, you know, white knuckled it and just powered through and as if, I was supposed to do that, and I. Would have deprived myself of. A connection and an opportunity to kind of engage and build trust. Well, let's now carry that just a little bit further because we want to make sure that everything we talk about in this conversation helps our listeners and viewers understand how these comedic principles and what you've learned through comedy has informed and elevated your leadership. So take it one step further. and share a bit more about how you've discovered how vulnerability really makes you a more effective leader.

10:07 Well, most leaders that I know, or at least I hear of, don't really want to express, don't want to. Say, I don't know. They, you know, we're all problem solvers, CEOs, entrepreneurs, you know, all you know, alpha and we can solve problems. There's not a problem that's too great, you know? And so by, and often you don't hear, I don't know the answer. Can you help me out here? I'm, I'm, this is really something I can't figure this out and allowing yourself not to know all the answers to, to recognize that great ideas can come from anybody and that the sum of us is smarter than all of us and being able to express vulnerability and say, you know what?

10:50 I just don't know. Help me out. What do you think? Come on team. What do you think? Joe, what do you think? Betty, Susie, help me out here. Give me, you know, and by, by allowing yourself to be vulnerable, you, you lean into the collective wisdom of the team and it's, it is very powerful. And so that's a major lesson in comedy that you, that I've learned. If you, you know, for example, if you, um, how many times you go to a comedy club and the comedian says, so who eats dogs here? Give me, help me out here. I can't believe my wife, who, who's married? You're married, right? So, you know, you know, and you use crowd work to, to express your, your, your grief or your problem or your, your struggle. And that brings the audience into the, it's like a inside there. They feel part of the solution now, you know? And so it's, it's really, I find it very powerful in helping build connection, engagement, and create an environment for collaboration and tapping into, as I said, the collective wisdom of the team.

11:49 Yeah, for sure. And along those lines, one of the other things you do so beautifully in the book, and let's just imagine if you were to put out something like, how many of you have worked in an organization, maybe even for your dad, who really didn't want you to be there and didn't want you to be the leader, right? I mean, I can imagine there's people going, yeah, that's, you know, whatever. Or how many of you, you know, didn't get where you wanted to go in work or whatever? But your whole story of sharing how you stepped into a family business, and I would like for you to share more about what the business does, but you stepped into the family business. Your father ran it. When it was his time to move on, he hired another CEO, and it wasn't you. And so you really had to kind of fight your way into the role of being the leader or the CEO of the organization. So let's hear a little bit about that journey and also what the business actually does.

12:36 Okay, so I'll start backwards. So the business is a. As I write, it's a third-generation family business, and we sell automobiles to service members overseas on the military bases abroad. So if you were a service member in Ramstein, Germany, and you wanted to buy a car. It's a lot of friction, right? You have to go to a local German dealer. You have to speak German. You'd have to buy Euro. There's that, you know, and if you're 24 year old and you've never been to Europe, that you can imagine that's not something they want to do. So we sell them us cars on the American basis overseas. That's, that's our business model. Um, and so I guess the, the, the journey was that I, you know, I came from advertising, as I mentioned earlier, and I was a very creative person, not really financially Matt.

13:23 I didn't have a financial background. I wasn't a detailed person. I'm not a process-driven guy. As you can probably tell just by talking to me, I'm energy, creative, big picture. I'm not an operator. I'm not a process guy. And, you know, my dad was an engineer and very, very detailed-oriented. And, you know, I. Was hoping that there would be room for both of us when I joined the family business, being creative and and having my skills would be complimentary. Um, but over time I realized that it was, it was kind of, uh, less value. Than I would have hoped.

14:04 And so, you know, it was, um, you know, I, I made mistakes of course. And I, you know, my immaturity was, wasn't great. And I own what I own. I'm recognized that, but it was working for family businesses. If you speak to a lot of people work in family business, it's a tough, it's tough. You know, the founder usually is, not very, um, uh, forgiving, put it that way. And not very, you know, they, they, they, they don't make it easy for you to, uh, you know, um, become part of the mainstream, you know, the part of the mainstream of the organization. I mean, so, Oh yeah. So I was doing my own thing and I felt a little bit on the, all the light I read in my book, all the light was deflected, you know?

14:49 And, uh, I didn't feel as much valued. And then, of course, when there was a succession plan, as my dad was getting older, and there was a succession plan, I thought for sure I would be at least in consideration set. I didn't expect to be handed it, but I thought for sure I would be up for something. And I wasn't. There was no mention or no consideration for me at all in an executive position. So that was not great. And then I became the chairman. Then he hired another CEO who kind of bought into the talk tracks that I couldn't do it and the negative talk tracks and all.

15:33 The baggage that followed. And he didn't help me either. And, you know, it took a while to kind of figure it all out. And then I think I write in my book that there was a meeting. I was the chairman. It was a meeting that the CEO had with my mother. And other board members ostensibly to kick me off the board and out of the company. And fortunately, I had two independent members on the board who I had hired. And they called me and told me about this meeting. And I stopped the meeting and fired the CEO. And I still didn't feel I was ready.

16:18 I was believing. I like to say boats sink not because of the water around them, but because of the water that gets in them. And I was buying into the negative talk tracks and what I couldn't do and I couldn't do this and I can't do that. I'm not suitable. And so I was complicit in the story. And so even after I fired the CEO, I hired another outside CEO. And then finally after that CEO left, I was literally the last person standing. And I, I was, I, by be working on stage all these years and learning, developing confidence and realizing that if he can perform and stand naked in front of a crowd and make them laugh and unify them and bring them together, then I certainly can run an organization and lead. And so that's when I gave myself permission to, I got this and I can do this. And I, I, I discarded all the negative talk tracks that were standing in the way of my advancement.

17:17 I love that story, and I want to comment on more on that, David. In the meantime, let me grab our first break here. I'm your host, Dr. Elise Cortez. We're on the air with David Goldring. He's the chairman and CEO of Overseas Military Sales Corporation, where he has spent more than three decades leading and growing a global automotive business serving U.S. military, diplomatic, and international communities. We've been hearing a bit about how he stepped into the world of comedy and how it's really helped him come into his own, if you will. After the break, I'm going to comment on what he said there and also take us into the place of leading with your North Star. We'll be right back.

18:07 Dr. Elise Cortez is a management consultant specializing in meaning and purpose, an inspirational speaker and author. She helps companies visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose-inspired leadership and meaning-infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her at EliseCortez.com. Let's talk about how to get your employees working on purpose. This is Working on Purpose with Dr. Elise Cortez. To reach our program today or to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Elise, A-L-I-S-E, at EliseCortez.com. Now, back to Working on Purpose.

18:58 Thanks for staying with us and welcome back to Working on Purpose. I'm your host, Dr. Elise Cortez. As I am dedicated to helping create a world where organizations thrive because their people thrive. They're led by inspirational leaders that help them find and contribute their greatness. And we find ways to do business that betters the world. I keep researching and writing my own books. So one of my latest came out. It's called The Great Revitalization. How activating meaning and purpose can radically enliven your business. And I wrote it to help leaders understand today's very discerning and ever-moving workforce. What do they want and need from you to give their best and stick around? And then I provide you 22 best practices to fold into your culture and your leadership to provide that for them. You can find my books on Amazon or my personal site, EliseCortez.com.

19:41 If you are just now joining us, my guest is David Goldring. He's the author of Stand Up and Lead, Turning Comedy into Leadership. So I wanted just to say and celebrate. David, I appreciate so much the tenderness with which you shared the story of your rise to leading your company, your family business. One of the huge reasons that I'm an organizational psychologist and do the work that I do is because I believe in the wonder, nobility, and power of work to help us provide the impact that we crave but also to help us catalyze into our higher potential. And so you definitely did that. In your narration, I could feel you ascending, especially as you shed all of that negative track that you were working on and just stepped into your zone and led. So I just really want to applaud your story.

20:24 It's beautiful. Thank you. Yeah, you're welcome. yeah it's it really is very happy. About that story too he has a beach house in in the hamptons because of that story. See see see see um we could have a whole other story whole other conversation about the difference between you know the way the company that your father led versus the one that you lead but let's let's stay here for now um you know my whole jam is is is purpose and inspiration so the next couple questions are going to kind of step into those zones um You talk about leading with your North Star and the need to vocalize that. I love that. And the need to vocalize it. I did have Bill George on my podcast many years ago. He talks a lot about North Star.

21:05 But you really talk about the importance of understanding and standing by a purpose that is unique to your personal operating system and really speaking to it. So let's hear a bit more about how did you come to understand that and how does that show up in your leadership? Well, you know, so first the North Star is what the sailors use to keep themselves focused and centered, right? It's their guiding principle, I guess, their guiding light. And we're kind of lucky because our business is very purposeful by definition. I mean, we serve service members overseas who are serving. In harm's way. I mean, it's, you know. Probably the hardest job that any of us can do, you know, and it's just so noble and honorable.

21:50 So it's really not difficult to have a. Purposeful job, purposeful, have a purpose in this organization because of the consumer, you know, the consumer base, they kind of demand it and force it and keep us, keep us centered. So, That's the first thing. I mean, we look outward and it's like, well, who do we serve? And it's clearly it's the service members overseas, particularly, you know, particularly overseas who are serving in harm's way. So that's the first thing. And so that reminds us, you know, I always ask, I like to ask myself, what would the customer miss. If we weren't around? You know, if we went out of business, dare I say, or if we were not around, what would the customer miss?

22:31 And so that. Connection, the emotional connection, the advice, the, you know, the attention to their needs, you know, those types of things that we do. We get on, you know, that reminds me of our North Star. We have a story. We had a sales agent who got on the Lincoln. Just recently came back. It was supposed to be for six months. You know, it was nine months. He was actually on the Lincoln. We fly him in. In Bahrain, and he gets on for two weeks and then leaves, usually, or a week. He was on this because they couldn't take anybody off. He was on the aircraft carrier for the whole time. And the emails he sent me about the, you know, sleeping in the bed, sharing the beds and the food. And so he started a comedy club at the, I guess, paying an homage.

23:25 To the CEO. He started a comedy hour on the ship that he started. Um, you know, and then I get, well, I went up inside when I think about some of those things. And then there's a, one of the, we have a, a, a poster, a picture of our office of a, of a soldier who died. And he has a Harley Davidson, um, purchase order buried with him that he bought from us. We also represent Arlie and the father wrote us a note. And he said that buying Arlie Davidson and you guys making it possible was like his own dream. He had wanted to own Arlie and you made it possible for him. And, you know, and, and, you know, we died in battle, but I mean, that's more, I mean, I mean, I have purpose when, when you, when you see us stuff like that. So that is our North star and we, we take it very seriously and it's, it's, you know, it's something that's very powerful to the organization.

24:17 Yes. And I, I really want to celebrate the word vocalize because it's one thing for it to live in your heart and cause it to well up in you, but it's quite another thing that you can share it with the team. So they get the benefit of that too. And that's the stuff that we also teach our companies and our leaders too, to make sure that those stories continue on so that everybody gets the benefit of, you know, feeling connected to those stories, knowing how they matter. Right. Well, we tell a lot of stories. I'm always good. I'm a good storyteller. So when we have our, you know, corporate meetings, I always start with a story of either a service member, a good experience. Sometimes they talk about a bad experience as a lesson. But I constantly remind the team and the, other, you know, the lower, you know, the rank and file level of.

25:02 Who we serve. I mean, we just don't behave like that when you serve these people. 100%. David, I'm aligned 100%. Okay. Now the next thing we have to talk about, you have a whole chapter on, you know, soft skills versus hard skills. And you talk about how those soft skills are arguably even more important in the critical age of AI. 100% agree. You also say that hard skills don't make you a leader and, they make you a manager. Right. So let's talk more about the, the power of soft skills and how would you describe what's the soft skill versus a hard skill? So soft skills to me would be authenticity, vulnerability, empathy, which helped build trust. Yeah. Um, hard skills, you know, financial engineering, cashflow analysis that, you know, valuations, um, And that makes.

25:50 You a manager as far as I'm concerned. And there's an over index of that skill in business. School, you know, but empathy and really caring about people and, Being vulnerable. I talked about being vulnerable, but that's a superpower. It's being aware of your blind spots, being open enough to the feedback. Feedback's very important. I didn't include that, but feedback is a blessing and a gift. And being open to the feedback, which could make you put you in a vulnerable position, is just really special. And it's the breakfast of champions. And so those are the skills that I'm talking about, to be able to. You know, a comedian is always listening to feedback, right? Every show is a referendum of immediate feedback of the performance.

26:32 They laugh or they don't. It's very, very simple. And Jerry Seinfeld once said, I give. Them eight ideas and they tell me I only got two, you know? So that's feedback. You learn to live in a world where there's constant feedback. And also... You know, a lot of sport teams have instant feedback. They know exactly where the play didn't work and why it didn't work because they're looking at their iPads in real time. But most of the time in businesses, we don't have real-time feedback. You know, sometimes you don't have feedback at all. And, you know, a lot of organizations aren't really good with appraisals and feedback. But hearing the feedback, listening to the feedback, and allowing yourself to be vulnerable to the feedback will just make you such a better leader.

27:16 And that's the soft skills I'm talking about. But I like how you talk about listening with your third ear, which is really being able to take in, that's through your emotional intelligence meter, but also just being present enough that you can feel and have a finger on the pulse of the emotional heartbeat of what's in that room. That is so, so powerful. And I do see that missing in a lot of leaders that we then help to go on to help develop that because That is so, so important. Not just survey results or engagement, but feeling, being able to step into a room and go, wait, hang on a minute. Something's going on. Let's talk about this. Right, exactly. And a comedian doesn't automatically walk into the stage. You walk up on the stage and you just, who's with you?

28:00 You can tell by the body language, by the energy, who's not with you. Who do I got to work with? Who can I count on? And, you know, your job, you're the orchestra leader. I talk about an orchestra leader, and you've. Got to bring everybody together. And that's a sixth sense. That's your third eye. Yes. I mean, your third year. I guess it's your third, I do, but it's your third year. Definitely. Definitely. In that zone, David. In that zone, for sure. Okay. Well, now we've been talking about getting the audience to laugh. Now you have a whole chapter on earning the applause. And this is the power of non-monetary rewards. And there's a few things in there that I wanted to call out that I really appreciate the way that you talked about them. And one is that you have discovered that Trust can be its own reward. And I completely agree with that. When people feel trusted, that can be such a reward. Can you say a bit more from your perspective of why that is so powerful?

28:55 Sure. So, yes. So I don't think anybody, most people don't wake up in the middle of, you know, wake up in the morning and say, how can I, how can I screw up today? How can I really do a bad job? You know, they wake up in the morning and they want to be a value. They want to contribute. They want to feel important that they're adding something to the organization. And I think that, you know, the, um, the trust that we give them to allow them room to, to make a mistake, to allow them to grow, to allow them to learn is just going to build a deeper connection and engagement going forward. Um, I have, um, there's, I talk about the three T's of management, which is trust, treating them well and training and, um, think trust is the hardest part. We want to control, micromanage, make sure that.

29:47 They get it right. And we don't want to give people room to try something and to be empowered to do it. And the big part is if they make a mistake, which is most likely... you know, than to be forgiving of the mistake. Now, obviously, you can't make too many mistakes because, you know, then that's not good. Right. And one thing I want to go into just a little bit more detail because of the work that we do, I know this extremely, extremely well. I've over the years trained brand new supervisors, their first time, you know, supervisor role onto the new manager, onto the leaders, senior leaders, executives, CEOs, etc., And that first step, especially when you go from individual contributor to supervisor or to a brand new manager, is often the hardest. And that's where you see so much of that micromanaging because they see one way of doing it and they want to control and nitpick every single little move and control every action of their employees, which removes the whole life and animation out of their people. Exactly.

30:47 And there's such disengagement. I mean, why would they, you know, they're not going to, put in the, they're not going to maximize their effort or engagement or involvement that, you know, and they, they often have to quit and stay. They'll stay, but they're, they're still somewhere else. Yeah. So that's part of the journey is to be, to be an effective leader is you've really got to learn how to be able to extend that trust, you know, to give them the idea of what does good look like and then give them the guardrails and check-ins so they're on track, but they're still feeling like they're independent and sovereign in their way forward. It's such a, it's an important dance to learn. And the sooner you do that, the better off everybody will be. Right. But trust is also a two-way street, right? You trust down, but you also need to have trust up.

31:30 And, you know, so I can empower people and trust them to do the job, which is great, but they also have to trust me as a leader. And that goes back to the soft skills. Trust is an outcome of being authentic, being vulnerable, being And having empathy. And then, of course, you have to know your shit. You can't be an idiot. No one's going to trust an idiot. Right. You have to, I'm not saying mastery, but you have to know what you're doing. You know, you have to be competent. You've got to be worth following, for sure. Absolutely. Okay, let's grab our last break here. I'm your host, Dr. Elise Cortez. We've been on the air with David Goldring. He's the chairman and CEO of Overseas Military Sales Corporation, a global automotive business agency. serving U.S. military, diplomatic, and international communities. He's also a stand-up comedian, performing regularly and drawing powerful parallels between the stage and the boardroom. I've been talking about several of the principles that he's learned in comedy that he now uses in leadership and vice versa.

32:27 After the break, I can't wait to get into one particular area of comedy in leadership, and that's heckling. We'll be right back. Thank you. Dr. Elise Cortez is a management consultant specializing in meaning and purpose, an inspirational speaker and author. She helps companies visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose-inspired leadership and meaning-infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her at EliseCortez.com. Let's talk about how to get your employees working on purpose. This is Working on Purpose with Dr. Elise Cortez. To reach our program today or to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Elise, A-L-I-S-E, at EliseCortez.com. Now, back to Working on Purpose.

33:36 Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to Working on Purpose. I'm your host, Dr. Elise Cortez. If you are just now joining us, my guest is David Goldring. He's the author of Stand Up and Lead, turning comedy into leadership. So this next bit here, I couldn't help, there was no way I was going to let you off without talking about this, but being on stage, especially as an individual stand-up, you're going to probably get a heckler. In fact, I just saw this two weeks ago at a business, or a birthday party, David, where some guy was heckling various people, and it was clearly from the first thing that you talk about. So you say many comics will tell you that they get their hecklers fall into a few categories. One is the drunk who doesn't realize it's not a conversation, which is what this guy was.

34:25 You have the bachelorette party where the bride wants to be the center of attention, the audience member who thinks he's funnier than the comic, and the bomb thrower who wants to embarrass you. So I wanted to be sure and situate that because as leaders, we do face these kinds of people, right? Maybe differently in the world of work, but especially that bomb thrower that's really trying to disable you. So And I like so much the idea that you say in your book about how to address these hecklers and also even maybe at some point to be able to enroll them as allies. So share with us your perspective of what you learned from comedy about hecklers, how they serve, and how you can work with them to achieve better business outcomes.

35:08 So first of all, resistance equals engagement. So pushback isn't in and of itself a bad thing. It's feedback. So That's my first attitude going into it. If somebody is, you know, slightly heckling, it's, you know, they're showing engagement and it works. If somebody disagrees, they're being engaged and they're interested. And the problem is, you know, when it becomes disruptive and a bomb thrower and they're no longer on the team, you know, and at work, for example, you know who the hecklers are, right? They're the people that sit with their arms crossed in the meetings and they nod their head. Oh, yeah, it's great. We've been there, done that before. And then you have the other ones who, smile at everything, and they say yes, and they go out, and then behind your back, they undermine every single initiative. So the bomb thrower actually is a blessing because you know who your heckler is. I'd much rather have that than the people who can't wait to undermine your project behind your back.

36:06 So the first thing you have to do is separate the bomb thrower from the people that are just disagreeing. But are disagreeing because. They don't understand it or they're not clear on the objective or they're challenging it because they want to know. So that's the first thing. And then you have to understand that in comedy, as in leadership, there's going to be people that no matter what you say will work with you. There'll be people in the middle. It's probably like a third, a third, and a third. People in the middle that will go either way. And then there's a third who just, no matter what you say, they just will not buy what you're selling. They think you're funny. They don't like people with glasses. They don't like New Yorkers.

36:47 I don't know. They just are not. No matter what you do, they won't laugh. So in a comedian, you just work around them. You work to the side of the room that is laughing. often the other two-thirds of the room will bring the other third along because they'll get minimized and marginalized and they'll feel kind of stupid. No one's laughing at them anymore. They don't think it's funny, so they'll just be quiet. And usually the other room will bring the other people along. You can't lose control at all. You have to be the professional up there. You can't show weakness or you'll be taken advantage of for sure. Translating that into business is similar.

37:28 So you're going to have people in your organization who support the initiative no matter what. You have people in the middle who can go either way. And then you have the people that will, you know, the arms crossed and nodding their heads. We've done that before. They have to be minimized. You play to the ones that you can play to. You try to turn the negative people on your side. And sometimes you can't change their mind no matter what. And if they don't come around and they're causing problems and difficulty and they're anti-change, what I tell my team is if you can't change the people, guess what? Sometimes you have to change the people. Yeah, 100%.

38:09 You know, it's like in a comedy club. I mean, you try jokes, you try heckling comebacks, you use the room sometimes. It hasn't happened to me, fortunately, but sometimes it's hecklers so obnoxious. You call security. Yeah. You do a little sign, you know, you like move your head up, you wink, you know, and security ushers them out. It's an extreme case and something that fortunately has never happened, but it's the same. It's a comedy club. Sometimes you just got to get rid of people. It's just the comedy equivalent of calling the security. Well, and what I would say to that from my experience is if you don't, inside the organization, if you don't get rid of that kind of a heckler, you bring down the whole morale of the rest of the team and all their energy and their focus.

38:50 Exactly. You have to get rid of that kind of a human being, that toxic negativity. Yeah, to get the cancer out. And people want to laugh. I mean, you're in a comedy club, you're paying hard money. Right, that's right. You don't want to. Have some jerk booing the show because they think they're funnier than you are. Yeah. And oftentimes the hecklers, you know, the heckling line is funny and it shuts them up. And all is well and you go on and, you know, but, you know, every now and. Then you just. You know, you can't do anything about it. Yeah, I got you a really nice seat on this bus. It's going to leave the station. Here you go, right? This is.

39:31 Just perfect. Your favorite soda pop, whatever is coming with you. Sometimes I also write in my book, sometimes hecklers are from outside the company. So I tell a story where we were trying to get a new account. And we went out there, made a presentation, and we tried to follow up and follow up and next steps, next steps. And I couldn't get through. I was blocked with every turn. They didn't return my phone calls. You know, and it could be bankers. It could be banks or credit institutions. I don't know. There's people on the outside that just, for whatever reason, stand in your way or are obstacles for whatever reason. And so they're also hecklers, and you have to learn to overcome them as well, just like you do in a comedy club.

40:13 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay, so now we've got to go on to leading with inspiration, because that is absolutely our jam. We're all about inspiration and purpose. And I, interestingly enough, use some of the very same research that you talk about in your book, too, when I'm out speaking. It's also in my books. But let's hear from your perspective, why is it so important to lead with inspiration? I just think people lead from the inspiration and the head and the heart together combined is a powerful, powerful, magical combination. I think most people are head people. They think with their head, facts, data. And then there's people that are just hard people and the emotion and feelings, which is great also. But when you can put the data and the facts and the heart and the emotion together and get behind a really inspiring story, I mean, there's nothing people can't do.

41:07 At that point. I 100% agree. And then, of course, you cite the Bain research, which I do too as well. When I get the people that are like, yeah, the inspiration stuff, it's really soft. Yeah, that's really, I'm like, hang on a minute. Let's talk the numbers here. Let's do the numbers. And so really quick, listeners and viewers, the way it works, and Dave wrote it in his book beautifully, and I talk about it all the time too, but Bain Consulting did a study and looked at four different kinds of engaged employees, disengaged employees, satisfied, engaged, and inspired, and discovered that if you set the productivity level of the satisfied human at 100, they then discovered that the inspired human could perform at a level of 144. Sorry, the satisfied person at 144, the engaged level at 144, the inspired person at 225. So the whole point is it would literally take 2.25 satisfied human beings to do the work of one inspired human. So if you think this is not worth your time and effort, I would encourage you to think again.

42:07 Right. I mean, just think what that does from an SG & A, from an overhead standpoint. Absolutely. You hire half the people. You don't have to, you know, two to one. I mean, if you had an inspired organization, you would have half the people with double the results. I mean, it's perfection. It's it's beautiful now what i would also say because i've certainly experienced this you know as a as an improv performer again for those of you who are listening or watching this don't know improv is is it is really group comedy you're creating groups a group scene together or with other people so i'm not whereas david is on on his own for stand-up but the thing also about interestingly enough about some of the stories that we elicit i would imagine you too as a stand-up comedian is but you can also inspire those people in your audience by the stories that you tell And they realize, oh, you've gone through something that maybe they have been through as well and come through on the other side. And that's also a form of inspiration. Right.

43:05 I mean, the essence of comedy is a person with a problem. And most comedians, I mean, all comedians get up and they talk about their problems. You know, their wife doesn't love them. I don't have enough sex. I can't believe my kids. I got in trouble. Whatever the issue or the problem is. Right. It comes from such a true authentic place that often, you know, they laugh about it, but then often, you know, at the bar, at the end of the, after the show, people will come up to you and say, wow, I, you know, I had that situation happen to me too. I can't, you know, I, I, I can't, uh, I, I, I, wow. I, I, I can relate, you know, and that's kind of what the humor comes from. And they're relating to what's happening. Yeah.

43:45 Serving up the pain and with a nice spoonful of, you know, honey. Yeah, that's a pretty good combo, right? Isn't that what it would give us when we're sick? Okay, so, and along that line, it's related to this, but you also talked about how much you use story in what you do. But you've got a section in your book that's so, so powerful. And you talk about how, of course, you know, you can tell stories with purpose and talk about, you know, use data and PowerPoints, et cetera. But you say people's brains think differently when they hear a story. or that they can relate to. And we're looking to have them set up for something that we know that we need them to do, but they don't necessarily know it yet. But when they feel that story, they can start to be able to see themselves in that and even think it's their own idea. And I think that's so powerful when you can see that, because so often what we're selling is is something that people don't think or know that they do need, but yet story allows them to be able to see that. Exactly.

44:43 Um, people don't know what, I mean, Steve Jobs said he was, you know, the whole iPad, he didn't think people needed that. And now look at it. I mean, that's the whole idea. You, you, uh, you sell them, you tell them the story of what they need. Um, and, um, You present the problem, what they will have if they don't have the problem, I mean, if they don't have it. When we're selling cars, we have a thing called the dominant buying motive. What that is, it's the emotional appeal of an automobile. So we often will ask, what was the last car you had? And they'll say, I don't know, a pickup truck. And they'll say, well, what did you like about the pickup truck? And they'll say, I like going in the mud and hauling all my tools.

45:30 So you're not going to then sell a sedan at that point. So you tell the story about, well, imagine driving out near you in Texas. In the mud and and having all your, you. Know, not being inhibited by the weather and being able to fix the lawn. I'm doing a really bad example because I'm not a country guy, but you know what I'm saying. It's like a convertible. You get wind in your hair, or what do you want about that house? It's imagine the white picket fence. You paint the story of what they want, and it taps into the emotion. I hope my people do a better job than I just did, but, you know.

46:10 I got your point, David, and I think a lot of people listening will as well. I was trying to relate to a Texas person about Dallas, and I'm like, I'm the most urban guy around, and I'm trying to like, what are they doing in Texas, you know, in the fields of Texas, and I was trying to come up with a reason for a pickup truck, but I. Well, I, that is very lovely of you. And we do have ledgers in Texas. I bombed and admitted that I made a mistake. There you go. Right. Right. And we do have definitely listeners throughout Texas, but also across the world so that who can also relate to that. So not to worry. I want to give you the chance to, to close this conversation, David, you know, this show is called working on purpose. We are a whole lot about purpose around these parts. So I want to just allow you to close with, When you consider what does it mean for you personally to work on purpose and what do you believe becomes possible for a human being, an organization, and ultimately society when we learn to be able to lean on our comedic principles to lead and bring out the best in our team?

47:16 So I think staying true to our values and using the North Star to align our values with the North Star. and then wrap the North Star around something that's real purposeful and impactful and meaningful is just, it's a superpower. And to, you know, lean into the. As Simon Sinek would say, the why are you doing this? And, you know, the whole impact of the contribution of saving lives or helping the universe or better for the environment or whatever the purpose is, I just think it makes sense. it just makes you just so much more authentic and makes you just more powerful and makes the impact of what you're doing so much greater.

48:01 100% agree with that, David. I am so delighted that you crossed my path. I got to have you on my podcast. I got to read your book. I got to share with my listeners around the world. Thank you so much for being my guest and being you. Thank you so much, Elise. It was a pleasure. I had a lot of fun and you've been a great crowd. Thank you. Exactly. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Yes. Tip well, tip often. Okay. Listeners and viewers, I am certain you're going to want to learn more about David Goldring and the work that he and his team do at Overseas Military Sales Corporation and the book that he just wrote, Stand Up and Lead. So you can start by visiting him at his website.

48:42 It's david. jgoldring.com. Again, davidjgoldring.com. Last week, you missed the live show. You can always catch it via recorded podcast or wherever you find them. We were on air with Andrew Rausch, who's the founder and managing partner of Venture Plus Philanthropy. We are kindred spirits serving some of the same kinds of companies and leaders. We talked about his dedication and practice to helping founders, CEOs, and mission-driven organizations grow with purpose, lead with courage, and give with impact. Very much about generosity. We will see you next week for another nourishing and inspiring conversation. We will be on air next week with John Miles talking about his book. The Mattering Effect, creating a life of meaning and worth.

49:23 We'll be diving into his practical framework built on six essential elements that taken together offer a clear, actionable way to rebuild mattering and help people feel valued, significant, and deeply connected to themselves and one another. Let's continue leaning in to learn how to help more people flourish and Elevate your operating system as a leader and create destination workplaces where legendary business takes place. Let's work on purpose. We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to tune in to Working on Purpose, featuring your host, Dr. Elise Cortez, each week on W4CY. Together, we'll create a world where business operates conscientiously, leadership inspires in passion performance, and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning and purpose they crave.

50:08 See you there. Let's work on purpose.