Sept. 15, 2026

The Future of Work Needs Compassion: From Extractive to Generative Organizations

Show Notes
Transcript

A provocative conversation with Carson Kelly, who is pioneering a fascinating shift from extractive to generative organizations, bringing together neuroscience, organizational design, relational trust, and the emerging idea of the ROI of Care. We talk about why psychological safety and human connection matter to performance, what it means to build cultures where people can truly flourish, and why the future of leadership may require an entirely new role: the Chief Flourishing Officer.

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WEBVTT

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What's working on purpose anyway? Each week, we ponder the

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answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose

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at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their

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lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization

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that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their

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highest potential. Business can be such a force for good

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in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide

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guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we

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all want, working on purpose. Now, here's your host, Dr.

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Elise Cortez.

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Welcome back to the Working on Purpose program, which has

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been brought to you with passion and pride since February

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of 2015. Thanks for tuning in again this week. Great

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to have you. I'm your host, Dr. Elise Cortez. Most

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organizations are sitting on untapped human energy and capability, and

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I help them unlock it by developing teams, leaders, and culture.

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I'm an organizational psychologist, logotherapist, workforce advisor, and the founder

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of the Gusto Now Movement. But the title I live

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by that is much simpler, that's one of my favorites,

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is I Just Simply Traffic in Energy. Not the service

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level or motivation or another engagement initiative kind, but the

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deeper force, what I call gusto, the life force for

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performance that drives commitment, perseverance, and ownership of a shared mission.

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You can learn more about us and how we can

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work together at gusto-now.com or my personal website, elisecortez.com. Getting

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into today's program, we have with us Carson Kelly. He's

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the founder and CEO of Compassion 2.0 and flourishingly, where

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he is focused on building AI-informed organizational frameworks and leadership

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systems that help organizations better understand the relationship between culture, leadership, behavior,

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team dynamics, and business performance.

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He is riveted on.

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Scaling compassionate human experiences and frameworks of flourishing through product

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and organizational culture design rooted in science. His work emphasizes

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the measurable value of care-based cultures, demonstrating how compassion and

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care can directly influence organizational performance and outcomes. He joins

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us today from San Francisco Bay Area, Kirsten, a hearty

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welcome finally to Working on Purpose.

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Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's great to

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be here. Absolutely.

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We've been talking about this for a while and we're

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finally making it happen.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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So I have to confess.

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You know, when I was doing some research for what

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we would talk about on the show, I didn't know

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about your personal origin story, what happened.

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To you at age 17.

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Can we start with that and then hear how it made,

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what it awoke in you and how did it maybe

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send you down this path that you're on today? You've

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been on a spiritual journey, you've been on technology journey.

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You've been on a very robust journey since that time.

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Yeah, sure. Happy to.

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So when I was 17, I went on a river

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rafting trip for my first time with a girlfriend and

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her parents who had done extensive rafting trips. And they

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took us on a class four rapid here in Northern California.

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That was the plan, which is a very difficult level

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of rapids. There's, I think, a total of five plus

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five plus, which is basically unnavigable. And when we got there,

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the guides decided that they wanted to have a little

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bit of fun. So they changed it and they put

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us onto a class five rapid. And it was, needless

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to say, somewhat irresponsible because I had never been rafting before.

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And within the first literally 90 seconds after receiving the

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safety protocols, the the boat tipped over and it just

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so happened that everybody fell on me and pushed me

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into the bulk of the rapid and everybody else got

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out immediately. So I wound up swimming a class five

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which again was very difficult and not something that I

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expected to do and during that time I basically started

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to drown and as a part of that process there

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was a time in that experience where I had this

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visceral feeling that I could choose to no longer stay

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in my body, if you will, that the muscular skeletal

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meat sack of the body would continue down the river

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and I, whatever that was, would persist and transition to

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some other place. What that place was or what that

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means and so forth, that's been something I've been....

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On a path to inquire about.

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But I did know that I had a sense at

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that time, at least, that it wasn't lights out, so

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to speak. So when that happened, needless to say, I

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went into the river as one person and got out

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of the rapid as another. And when I, at that

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point at 17 years old, it just so happened that

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I was becoming a senior in high school, second semester,

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and had a new English teacher who then turned me

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and several of others of us on to Taoism and

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some other kinds of eye-opening kinds of spiritual awakening sorts

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of things.

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So from that point forward, I began a spiritual path. Wow.

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What an early catalyzing experience to have as a young man.

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And of course, now I'm interested to understand if there

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is a thread to that, Carson. Is there a thread

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to what you're really focused on today around compassion, human flourishing?

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Organizational work.

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Yeah, there is.

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Originally, I thought I was going to go off to

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college to do film at USC. By the time I

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got there, I had a change of heart and started

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studying Eastern philosophy. I learned very quickly that I wasn't

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interested in doing that in school, so I transitioned to

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Western philosophy. Essentially, I became very interested in systems of ontology,

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namely It's kind of a nerdy philosophical term for the

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study of being. So what does it mean to, how

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to say, be alive and to do so in a

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way that's authentic in whatever model is being offered? So

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the philosophers have different models, the spiritual teachers have different models,

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and so on. So I found myself interested in those

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questions for many, many years and thought I was going

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to become a professor and then eventually thought, okay, and

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was actually a book publisher for a little while. And

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then the dot-com world took off where I was in

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the late 90s. So in 1998, 99, I joined a startup,

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my first one, Internet 1.0, and just was doing focused

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work on bringing a bunch of merchants online to sell

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through eBay, which is a new sales channel at the time.

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And we did that for a while. And then I

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transitioned and went into enterprise software. And then I had

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an opportunity to travel in 2018 or 2019, rather, to

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go to India where I was able to meet the

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Dalai Lama with my wife.

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In the class that she teaches at a particular school.

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She teaches a philosophy and ethics class, and His Holiness

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had invited the class to his private residence to talk

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to him about that.

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And so it was, of course.

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An incredible opportunity and went and did that, went to

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India for the first time and came back and then

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transitioned and changed my focus from my enterprise software sales

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days to founding a company called Benevolently, which was a

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platform for acts of altruism. So I had that going

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and then we had the beginnings of a pilot at

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LinkedIn and we were just about to consider one at

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Google and COVID happened. So we had to shut the

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whole thing down, at which point I was invited to

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join a startup that involved a woman named Dr. Tanya Singer,

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who's a renowned German neuroscientist who's done work on understanding

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where empathy and compassion exist in the network areas of

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the brain.

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They're different things. They exist in different places.

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So working with that team, we set up a company

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to bring that practice. That was the basis of her

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research to a larger commercial audience. So I did that

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for a number of years. And then at which point

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I transitioned from that and went into founding Compassion 2.0

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to do the work that I do today, which is

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related to the ontology of authenticity, I guess is a

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way to say it.

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Man, that was about as succinct of a journey tracing

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as I've ever heard, Kirsten Kelly. Not surprised to hear

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that it came out of your mouth. I was just

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telling Juan, my producer, before he came on, this man

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is articulate, he's wicked smart, and he's got depth.

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You just illustrated that.

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Yes.

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Well, it's just calling a spade a spade, my dear.

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Okay, well, now then, that allows us then with that

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platform to then talk about this idea of compassion. You know,

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obviously in my work, we do a lot around empathy, kindness,

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psychological safety, and caring leadership. These are all components that

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end up showing up. However, you and I have done

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work together. I'm certified in some of your content. For

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our listeners and viewers who don't know about this, what's

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different about compassion and how you're teaching it and rendering it?

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And then I want to get to the 2.0 piece

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to what that means.

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Sure.

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So Compassion 2.0, our mission is to scale compassion. I

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had this realization about my own personal mission about this

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a few years ago. Just being very clear, that's what

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I'm going to do with the rest of my professional career.

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And said another way for Compassion 2.0, what we want

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to do is scale compassionate human experience and its architecture

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based on products and organizations that have scientifically informed or

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validated principles to them delivered through our construct of flourishing. Now,

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that's a lot to say, and there's a lot to unpack,

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but said yet another way, Compassion 2.0 is in the

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business of scaling parasympathetic nervous system state availability, as opposed

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to the sympathetic nervous system of scanning for threat and

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responding with fight, flight, freeze, and fawn, which is very

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predominant all throughout society and organizational culture today. So we

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believe that in the age of AI, where AI will

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commoditize as much work as it can, that organizations, when

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they want to create value, they have to, of course,

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go to where it has always been created, which is

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from humans individually and collectively. And humans that are in

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a sympathetic nervous system state response of fight, flight, freeze,

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and fawn because they feel like they're under threat, can't

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at the same time be creative and be in relationship

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and have empathy and come up with novel ideas and

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complex problem solving and all of the things individually, let

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alone as a group, they can't do that. So our

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goal is to say for organizations of the future, that

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if you want to be competitive, you can't do so

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by having commoditized work that AI does. You have to

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have teams of amazing people and everyone is amazing in

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their own way. operating in a space where they feel

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safe and these good things can come forward and they can,

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with gusto, deliver on the value of what they can offer.

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That was gorgeous.

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And of course, I know that because we've been doing

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a lot of work together over the months too in

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the certification process.

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So I know this, but really wanted you to share

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with our listeners and viewers. And that was gorgeous.

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And that takes us to the next level here of,

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you know, the way that you communicate around this work

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that we're all doing with us together is this notion

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that you make that provocative argument that compassion isn't simply

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a leadership virtue. Now you're talking there's like a centrality

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to it, right? There's like a fulcrum element to it.

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Yes, and that's why we call it Compassion 2.0.

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And Compassion 1.0, in my own studies over 35 or

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so years of looking at various philosophical and spiritual systems,

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compassion is a through line through every single one of them.

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And oftentimes compassion is thought of as a virtue that

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is taught in a non-secular framework, often by a spiritual teacher,

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to be brought to all aspects of your life, which

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of course is a beautiful thing. The reason why we

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call it 2.0 is that pioneering.

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Neuroscientists, such as Dr.

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Tanya Singer, who I mentioned, or Richie Davidson, or many,

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many others now, have been using MRI machines and other

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scientific methods to identify and teach compassion in a secular

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way that comes from a validated basis.

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Now, the validation is arbitrary. It doesn't matter because.

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non-secular teachers, spiritual teachers, be it a priest or a

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monk or whoever, any sort of spiritual guide, the teaching

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of compassion is just as valid. So I don't want

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to confuse that. But from the scientific framework, we now

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have language and understanding that circles back on what monks

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and priests and spiritual guides have known for thousands of

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years intuitively. Instead of it being an individual virtue, Compassion 2.0

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sees it as a group organizing principle because it is

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ultimately tied to our autonomic nervous systems. Even though we

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all have different lived experiences in terms of our embodiment,

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our language, our skin color, the culture, the systems of

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power that we find ourselves within, either advantageously or disadvantageously.

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All of those things are very true.

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And at the underlying principle of it all is an

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autonomic nervous system structure that we share, and different signal

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comes in, regardless of the culture and how those signals

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show up, they still come in and they still ignite

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these autonomic nervous system responses of either parasympathetic or sympathetic

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nervous system response. And that, and which means we're all,

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of course, I mean, we already are unified and we

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all have the same experience at that level. So Compassion 2.0

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is to honor that, to recognize that, and again, to

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say in a future that we see, a future that

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right now looks very challenging because of a lot of

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difficulty that's happening in the world, a lot of very

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extractive forces that are happening in the world. So I

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think it's hard to see at times, but we believe

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that there is... certain amount of, how to say, I

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don't want to use the word waking up per se,

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but something along those lines where people are starting to

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understand that I think there is greater opportunity for us

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to be working collectively and more of a mycelial network

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for the long-term benefit of our children's children's children, et cetera,

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and the future of the planet than it does in

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the short-termism that extractive or greedy thinking will have a

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result for us.

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I don't know if that made sense, but.

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It did, but I want to take it one step further, Carson.

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For people who have never heard this language, extractive versus

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generative organizations, can you distinguish those a little.

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Bit more quickly for us? Yes, of course. Absolutely. I apologize. No,

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no worries.

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So extraction, in the way we see it at Compassion 2.0,

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there's one of the frames that we see the world

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is through extraction versus generative orientation. And extraction is... You

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can think about it in the way that people see

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the world, myself included. I don't take myself out of this.

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I'm working on it, but I'm definitely there. You can

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look at the world and people and things in the

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world to extract from. Namely, what can I get from this,

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from this relationship, from the environment? How can I monetize this?

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What can I get and take? And how do I accumulate? Which,

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in my understanding, is a direct response, accumulationism in particular,

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is a direct response to fear-based scarcity. So extraction is

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the framework and the wheel, the flywheel by which extraction

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generates more fear and more scarcity and more accumulationism. And

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we can see that playing itself out. Generativity, not regenerativity,

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but generativity, and not also in the same concept as

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generative AIâ we' re saying that eitherâ But generativity is when you

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look in the world in particular and you see other

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people not as objects to take from, but as other

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subjects like yourself that you're in relationship with. And when

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that happens, the first move is not, what can I get?

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The first move is, what can I give? What can

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I offer? And it's a generative act to do that.

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And in my, again, limited understanding, it is also what

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the Tibetan Buddhists call bodhicitta. in the sense of how

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do I show up in a way that's oriented towards,

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and it's not just limited to Buddhism by any stretch

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of the imagination.

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That's just one particular phrase that I'm using as an example.

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There's lots of these other traditions, Christianity and Judaism and

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Islam and so forth. All of it's present in many

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and they're beautiful traditions, but it's this notion of compassion

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and giving that I show up and offer as opposed

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to show up and take. So the extractive world really

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is showing up pretty substantially in our modern economic systems

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and what's happening in the world of business in particular

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and its relationship to the environment and to people and

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the growing wealth inequalities and all those things. It's just

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extractive forces getting more and more extractive because they're getting

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more and more powerful, and it just feeds itself. So

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generativity is its inverse at one level, and it's how

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to give and to support.

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Beautifully explained and well worth the extra dig, Carson. Let's

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let our listeners and viewers consider that as we take

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our first break.

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I'm your host, Dr. Elise Cortez.

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We've been on the air with Carson Kelly. He's the

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founder and CEO of Compassion 2.0 and Flourishingly, where he

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is focused on building AI-informed organizational frameworks and leadership systems

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that help organizations better understand the relationship between culture, leadership behavior,

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team dynamics, and business performance. We've been hearing about the

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foundation of the work that he's doing and why it's

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so important to him. After the break, we're going to

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get into this notion of the ROI of care and

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how we can actually measure compassionate organizations. We'll be right back.

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Dr.

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Elise Cortez is a management consultant specializing in meaning and purpose,

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an inspirational speaker and author. She helps companies visioneer for

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greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose-inspired leadership and meaning-infused

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cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and commitment within the workforce.

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To learn more or to invite Elise to speak to

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your organization, please visit her at EliseCortez.com. Let's talk about

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how to get your employees working on purpose. This is

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Working on Purpose with Dr. Elise Cortez. To reach our

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program today or to open a conversation with Elise, send

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an email to Elise, A-L-I-S-E, at EliseCortez.com. Now, back to

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Working on Purpose.

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Thanks for staying with us and welcome back to Working

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on Purpose. I'm your host, Dr. Elise Cortez.

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As I, too, am dedicated to creating a world where

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organizations thrive because their people thrive. They're led by organizational

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and inspirational leaders that help them find and contribute their greatness.

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And we do business that betters the world. I keep

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researching and writing my own books. So one of my

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latest came out. It's called The Great Revitalization, How Activating

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Meaning and Purpose Can Radically Enliven Your Business. And I

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wrote it to help leaders understand today's very discerning workforce.

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What do they want and need from you to give

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their best and then stick around? And then I offer

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you 22 best practices to equip it for them through

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your leadership and your culture. You can find my books

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on Amazon or my personal site, EliseCortez.com. If you are

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just now joining us, my guest is Carson Kelly, who

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was riveted on scaling compassionate human experiences and frameworks of

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flourishing through product and organizational culture design rooted in science.

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His work emphasizes the measurable value of care-based cultures, demonstrating

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how compassion and care can directly influence organizational performance and outcomes,

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as we've been talking about. So now that we've queued

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this up here, Carson, I love the whole phrase. It's

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just sexy and compelling, the ROI of care. So let's

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talk about how we can actually measure compassion in organizations.

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Sure. So the ROI of care principle.

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Ties back to what I was saying earlier around parasympathetic

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nervous system state availability. And when people are in that

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state of what's also called rest and digest, they're in

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a state of our natural state.

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It's the state of... of just being.

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And the sympathetic nervous system state is in response to

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threat that's scanned for and identified, and then we respond

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in a way.

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And we have fight, flight, freeze, or fawn.

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Our focus changes, the pitch that we're listening for in

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the ear changes, the heart rate changes. There's a bunch

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of things that are happening. And when we're in that space,

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we're totally focused on that response. parasympathetic nervous system state, again,

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is what we're in all the time. And when we're

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in that space, our sphere of concern moves from just

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myself when I'm in a threat response state to moving

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for the totality of.

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The group that I'm involved with. And the concern is expensive.

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It's not me. It's everybody. Now, again, I also want

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to be clear. I'm not a scientist.

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And some of the things that I'm speaking to are

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things that I've been taught by people who are much

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smarter and more capable than me. So forgive me if

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I make some of these, some things are not totally

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precise and clear, but generally speaking, this is the correct frame.

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So when people are in those states and they're relaxed,

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they're able to access greater capability in their brains, or

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I don't want to use the word brain, but the

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totality of their system, right? They're relaxed. They feel good.

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Ideas can flow. They can access the deep relationality and

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a sense of safety and concern for others. And then

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when groups of people are doing that collectively and everybody

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feels safe together, then you have a magical thing that's

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The Future of Work Needs Compassion: From Extractive to Generative Organizations

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