Why Work Sucks—and How a Results-Only Work Environment Can Finally Fix It

0:00 The topics and opinions express in the following show are solely those of the hosts and their guests and not those of W FOURCY Radio. It's employees are affiliates. We make no recommendations or endorsements radio show, programs, services, or products mentioned on air or on our web. No liability explicit or implies shall be extended to W FOURCY Radio or its employees are affiliates. Any questions or comments should be directed to those show hosts. Thank you for choosing W FOURCY Radio. What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their highest potential. Business can be such a force for good in the world, elevating humanity.

0:49 In our program, we provide guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we all want working on Purpose. Now, here's your host, doctor Elise Cortes. Welcome back to the Working and Purpose Program, which has been brought to you with passion and pride since February of twenty fifteen. Thanks for tuning in this week. Great to have you. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortez. Most leaders are sitting on untapped you and energy and capability. I help them unlock it. I'm an organizational psychologist, workforce advisor, vistage chair and the founder of the Gusto Now movement. But the title I live by each day is much simpler. I traffic and energy, not the surface level motivation or another engagement initiative, but the deeper force what I call Gusto, the life force for performance that drives commitment, perseverance, and genuine ownership of a shared mission in the clients we serve.

1:40 You can learn more about and how we can work together at gusto dashnow dot com or my personal site at least coortes dot com for information on speaking and books with us. Today is Jodie Thompson. She is the founding principle of culture RX, based in Minneapolis, Minnesota, and a wild widely recognized voice on the future of work. She is known for helping companies rethink workplace, culture, leadership, and performance in ways that drive stronger results and lasting change. She's the co author of two books on water management and the work and workplace performance. They include Why managing Sucks and how to fix it? And Why work sucks and how to fix it. The results Only Revolution, which we'll be talking about today. Specifically, we'll be talking about the pervasive mindset that keep us stuck in the arena of work that sucks in the results only work environment that she and her team champion to help companies and their people stop playing the game, the sole second game of work and move toward trust and accountability to produce results.

2:35 She shows us today from Minneapolis, Minnesota. Jody A hearty, Welcome to Working on Purpose, Elise. It's great to hear be here today and talk about this subject because I know it's still relevant. You know, it's been relevant for the last twenty five years, and we just have to keep making change. We do, and you are such a fantastic champion to do that. I'm so aligned with your book, you know. Oh, and I got to tell you this, Tody, because I do read my guest books cover to cover every single week, and then I take about twenty five to forty or fifty pages of typewritten notes, which is research for me. And you know, all this kind of good stuff. I do a lot of the reading when I'm at the gym on the bicycle stationary bicycle. So I bring this book in I think it was over the weekend, and I just start to set it down and since man sees this, and he comes screaming across the way at me.

3:21 He goes, that's me, that's me. I'm like, what, your work sucks? He goes, Yeah, you know what, A lot of people say, work sucks. And it's funny because that title really kind of it energized a lot of people, but it also, you know, frankly, pissed off a lot of people. Yeah. Well, I'm really delighted to have you on. As we spoke before the break, you know, you and I have been connected for quite some time. I follow your posts, I align with your posts, and I too, am out to help organizations create what we call destination workplaces instead of the soul sucking experience that it is for so many people. And so I want to start with your simple premise in your book. And you know, let's talk about the fact that your book was written the first time of what two thousand and eight, not like we're talking about something that came out last year. You've been working on this for a while. But this simple premise is based on this on our beliefs about work, that forty hours Monday through Friday, eight to five, they're so outdated, out modeled and out to lunch, as you say, and there are waste of people's time, that their lives, their energy, and it's based on assumptions about work and how it gets how it gets done that doesn't fit today's twenty four to seven economy. So I mean, if we just start right there, and I definitely want to spend some time chewing on this because this mindset is the undergird of all of this.

4:38 Well, it really is a cultural mindset that we've held since the fifties and that time plus presence equals results. So what we've managed to is we manage to the time clock and we managed to where people are working from and that right there, that foundation is the problem. That's the challenge that we have to overcome. So even though I might say all work wherever you want, Oh, I don't really count your hours, everybody's talking about it, and they need to know if you're not going to come in the office and you know, you really should come in the office at least twice a week, and all that conversation is not based on the actual work or what.

5:20 I expect from you in terms of results. Or to your point at least, are you connected to the purpose of the organization. We don't really care about that as long as you're in Tuesdays and Thursday, and then you can work. From home on the nfiety. Yeah. And you know what I really also appreciated too. And you know, I've had I think your episode six hundred and two, but this whole notion, you know, I love that you're a a future of work specialist. And when you think about it too, you say in your book that and most tragically of all, all of us, both in leaders and those of us working in organizations too, have we played the game. We've learned to play the game, and we've accepted this hole this as the norm. This is how and we judge, which we'll get into later other people who aren't playing the game.

6:08 Oh, absolutely, we're all playing the game. I mean it's things like you know, many years ago we used to do as we used to leave our coat on our chair, right, so it looks like we're still there. It's really like. Small things that we do every day that are just kind of silly, but the reason we do them is because we know that that's going to be something that makes us look good or maybe we're promotable. Then, so we keep playing that game, and we expect others to play it as well, because nobody really wants to be off culture, right, We all want to kind of fit in and all that kind of stuff. So the games are the kind of demoralizing because we know when we're playing those games, we don't feel good about it, right.

6:51 We don't feel good about, you know, trying to get in the office before everybody else, or trying to be on like trying to have our green light on or whatever that looks like. In teams, it's all about looking. Like you're working instead of reducing actual results, right. And you know, it sounds so simple a least, but I. Think what we came upon when we were conceptualizing this that best buy was nobody was really they were talking about the work, but it was all around you know, how many hours you work and when you're coming in and you know, why did somebody leave early? And all of that stuff is in the way.

7:32 And so when we talk about, for example, autonomy, mastery, and purpose, which Dan Pink wrote about in his book Drive. We cling to the hope that if we have purposes and we understand our jobs. That'll motivate us enough. But the one thing that was missing that we discovered was the idea of autonomy. And I will say this, Flexibility is not autonomy, right. Flexibility is built on a box of eight to five Monday through Friday or whatever that looks like. Right, that's the box, and. Then we create programming around that to give people permission to kind. Of go outside that box. Now, autonomy is not permission based.

8:18 Autonomy is every single day and every minute of all the time. I control my time. I don't have to ask permission. I don't have to tell anybody where I am. And that opens up sort of a big thing about well do people know what they're doing? Yeah, if I don't see you in the office, I don't think you know what you're doing. But I think that I see you and that you look like you're working, so therefore you must be doing something. So I think that was the scary thing for management when we first started this is, well, if I can't see people, how well I know they're working, and today it means seeing like this or in an office, and if I can't see you, how do I know?

8:59 Right? Presenteeism? How do you know? Now? I mean, just because people are in the office, it doesn't mean results are being achieved. So that kind of a big scary thing, as you know. Yeah, I mean I know plenty of people and you and I both been planning to people that are fully in the office. But they're there. They are there, right there in front of you, working on their vacation, planning the whole thing out, contacting the travel agencies and such. They're not working, they're just you can they're just present for you or which yes, maybe a better way to some time. Yeah, it's presenteeism. It's it's filling time. And you know, people aren't productive every minute of the day. And if we focused on the actual work, like are you achieving the.

9:39 Results that we agreed upon? Why does it matter if I'm planning my vacation right right, exactly right? Why does it matter if I'm you know, taking a nap on a Thursday afternoon. Why does it. Matter if I'm coming at ten and leave at eleven? I mean, why does that matter? If in fact, I'm accountable and showing results. Right, and you can trust me to deliver those results. Yes, and trust me, you know, for you know I'm going to you have to earn my trust in that and then. I'll let you right that word let bothers me terribly, me too. Don't get my shackles up, Jody. Okay. So one of the other things I want to get to because I think this will help our listeners and yours understand why this is such a problem. You talk about in your book that there are two forces pushing on people, demands and control, and you talk about when you have, you know, the high demands and high control, this isn't the sweet spot. So if you could say a bit more about those two forces pushing on people, why they're so important to manage, Well, that.

10:39 Is very important because if you have high demands in your life meaning work, you know, children, family, friends, all the things in your life, grocery, shopping, sleeping, all of it, high demands and low control, that's a high stress situation. So what we need to do is we need to and this has been proven to social science. Is raise our level of control to the highest possible level so we can meet all the demands in our lives, needs and wants. But what happens is when. We can't meet you know, we're just trying to meet our needs, and we need to meet needs and wants, what usually falls away what we want to do in our lives. We have to wait till we retire because we have to you know, be able to sleep and feed our families and all those things. And we don't have any time for you know, knitting or riding our bike or you know, reading or whatever that is we want to do because we we have this guilt associated with I have to sort of give up myself to give time, even if we're not producing results, I have to give somebody my time. We need to raise people's levels control to the highest possible level. Everybody, every job, no matter what it is, so that if people have purpose and they understand their job and they know what

12:11 their outcome is and they are clear about it, we don't have to manage people. Right right and so in our Parliamce Jodie, if we can get people more control over their lives and their time, what happens is we unleash more of that beautiful productive energy that they can use to be productive, to produce results, to come alive and animate the purpose of the organization. And if we give an example too, just listeners and viewers. When she said, you know, high demand, low control, I want you to think of some scenarios like people that have maybe they're caring for their their parents, or they've got children that they're caring for and they've got to get them tune from schools. That those are high demands, and they work for an organization that insists that they are in the office Monday through Friday from eight to five.

12:56 That is a very low control situation. And how many people are fleeing those situations. So I wanted to be sure and frame that and you know people so people can feel this and really relate to it. Because I want this to change too, Jody, and you're our ticket, So let's get to it already. Let's reap it happen. Why people are stressed out on a Sunday night because they know starting Monday morning they have lost control, they have less control over their needs and wants and things they have to do to take care of their lives. And it's very stressful to have that feeling for however many. Hours a week. You can be sitting in your cube, or you can be in an office and say, I don't really have anything I have to do right now, but.

13:40 I just sit there. This is your one precious life. By the way, I thought, yeah, this is your one precious life. You're sitting there, and once you said it's so beautiful in your book? Is that? Then your life is governed by the time clock. Absolutely, it's totally governed by that. And in so many areas of our life that that clock is how we manage everything. But when you're when you're in a situation where you have autonomy, time takes on a whole different meaning. Absolutely relate to it so much more differently and beautifully and productively. So what I'd love to do next is I'd love to have you introduce the results only work environment approach philosophy. But and then later I want to talk about where it actually came from. So what's the results or work environment For those of people who like me, haven't I've already read the book, they haven't.

14:31 So the results only work environment is built on autonomy and accountability. So every single person has one hundred percent autonomy, and every single person has one hundred percent accountability and when you have that kind of culture in perfect balance, that's where the organization thrives. That's a sweet spot. So for managers, it's it's always that push and pull between do people understand the measure results of their position? And are people autonomous? Not me giving them permission, but that they're so clear about their role and what they need to do that they communicate with each other, they work when they need to.

15:14 You know, basically, each person is free to do whatever they want whenever they want. As long as the work it's done. And you would think that would cause complete chaos, but it's something that is. It's attainable, not perfectly. It's just always a striving to is everybody accountable for. The right thing? And am I managing the work not the people? Yes? Beautiful, the work not the people. Okay, now, let's let our listeners and viewers just think about what we've been talking about so far, Why work sucks, the idea of what we're giving of our full entire lives to be able to plug ourselves into it, and the possibility of this results in the working environment. And let's take our first break. I'm your host, doctor Release Cortes we've been on the air with Jodie Thompson. She's the founding principle of Culture RX, based in Indiepolis, Minnesota, and a widely recognized voice on a future of work.

16:09 We'll be right back. Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author. She helps companies visioneer for a greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her at Elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose with dot to Release Cortes. To reach our program today, or to open a conversation with a lease send an email to a lease a Lise at Eleascortes dot com.

17:10 Now back to working on purpose. Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to working on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor e Release Cortes, as I am dedicated to helping create a world where organizations thrive because they're people thrive, they're led by inspirational leaders that help them find and contribute their greatness, and we do business a betters the world. I keep researching and writing my own books. So one of my latest came out. It's called The Great Revitalization. How activating meaning and purpose can radically enliven your business. And I order it to help leaders understand today's very diverse and discerning workforce. What do they want from you to give their best and stick around? And then I provide you twenty two best practices to provide that for them through your leadershpen your culture.

17:52 You can find my books on Amazon or anywhere else you will find books if you are just now joining us. My guest is Jody Thompson. She's the co author of Why Work Suck and How to Fix It The Results Only Revolution. So I think it's really important that people understand just where this came from. I think it's really really a fascinating thing about the history of this and how long you've been at this, And I think it will help our listeners and viewers understand just where it was born and that was your and Kelly's work at best Buy. If you want to give us a story there, yep. So when I was at best Buy, I was a change agent, so I worked on large scale organizational organizational change and Kelly was. In work life programs and she was.

18:33 Tasked with how do we create a flexible workplace, you know, across the entire five thousand people at best By Corporate, And so she reached out, she got me as a change agent, and we got together and we started to really think about. The idea of. Flexibility, which is a managed program. And as we talk to people and as we dug into it more, we started to why are we managing. People's time and location? We started to ask ourselves that question. And it was it was a profound question, like people are like, what are you talking about? So we stepped back and we said we're gonna We're gonna experiment with some teams. So there was a leader at that time, Mike Morault, who understood that people should have the ability to manage their own time, but his team was still using schedules.

19:27 So we said, well, how about if we took those away. So we started this out in a way that we were pretty radical and pretty kind of a little crazy at first, until we really worked on sort of creating something that people could understand and could also move through as a team and come out the other side. With autonomy and accountability. What was interesting about this that VEST buy is that the teams that moved into the results only work environment through a series of modules that we created. There, you know, resolves engagement all of the things that you look at in terms of are people productive and are they happy?

20:09 We're off the charts. We've worked with organizations who's you know, turnover went down to zero. And so here's the thing. At least people will say, well, there's some turnover is good. How do you know that? Is that really true? Wonderful? It isn't. So when you create an organization that has. The ability to you know, have leaders that are actually coaches, not old school managers, taks right exactly, micromanagers, and can actually coach people to do good work for the organization and the customer, well there's nothing like it. And I don't have to feel guilty and we'll talk about this in the lot while with Sludge, but I don't need to feel guilty about how I'm spending my time, which makes me even more dedicated and loyal to the organization.

21:06 I one hundred percent understand and understand that because that's how I run my team. And just as one example, the person that I helped them with communications and such. I mean, she's she started here in Dallas and then where I'm at, and then she moved to another city and we had an arrangement. I mean, this is what her this is what she's producing for me each week and for us each week, and this is what it needs. And I loved it when she would call and say, I'm going to be you know, unavailable for the next hour and a half because my husband has is kidnapped me to go horseback riding. I'm like, yes, go fantastic. And she comes back full of life. You know, everything that she does is infused with that joy and that passion, and she gets this big, beautiful, full life on her terms high control, and it's I want that. That's we are all about leaving our culture of gust to the ones that we're out to tell organizations to do as well.

21:57 And here's the best thing, listeners and viewers. As that weren't all great as it was, She's I mean I can set her deliverables by the claw. She doesn't miss her deliverables. But even better, I can't tell you the number of times just this one person I'm talking about has dazzled me with her output and her ideas and her contributions way beyond what I ask her to do. And that's unleashing the full human right there. Right, And when every single person has that opportunity, you can imagine how powerful that is. What I like to say the leaders today too, is we think of ourselves as physical beings. And that's how it's always been since the fifties. Right. If I can't get a hold of you physically, then you're not working or you're not available or whatever that is.

22:43 But really, we are a human being and we're a digital we're digital. Yeah, So if you reach out to me, you don't need to get the physical meat. You can get one of my superheroes, which I call them, yeah. My voicemailer email or the other ways to communicate, and you can reach out and. Let me know what you need and when you need it. And so if I, for example, decide. That my work is looking good, I communicated you know what I need to communicate, not where I'm going. I just communicated about the work, and I decided to go to the beach for a couple of hours sit in the sand. I know that everybody around me is going to reach out to me, to my digital presence and let me know what they need when they need it, and not ask.

23:31 Me like where I am. Yeah, so it's an interesting one. I love what you're doing is you're empowering people to do those things that wouldn't normally be done during the day. Right and in our culture, of course, we want to celebrate that. I want her to do those things during the day because I want to be able to unleash this full human and give her that. As you say, you know, I love this. You know, we so you so you're treated more like an adult than a child, right that you You know you should have stressed out about time. She doesn't have to make This is another thing you say in your book. She doesn't have to manufacture an excuse as to why she's not available. There's no need for an excuse. I'm celebrating the excuse if you will.

24:12 You know, it's so good that you're doing that too, because we like to talk about socially acceptable or socially unacceptable excuses like if I want to, you know, do something for a couple hours I'll say I'm going to the dentist because that's socially acceptable. I'm not going to say I don't feel like working right now. That's not socially acceptable. Beating fine, so people, that's part of the game that we play. But you're celebrating the idea that we're whole people or adults. We know our jobs and we go do them and we produce what we need to produce. And you're getting that. You're getting that well. And that's why our whole thing, you know, because partly as as a logo therapist, logos is Greek for meaning, and meaning from that advantage point is all about the energy life force. So all we're really doing is just activating that full you know, fuller human that is full of energy and vitality, except when you suppress it by boxing it into this this little narrow place and you know, removing their capacity to re energize themselves through the ways that they would normally do, like going out and writing writing Horseback for an hour and a half on Friday morning.

25:22 Yeah, I love that. I like to say we have to stop thinking outside the box. The box doesn't exist. That's where we need to start. It just doesn't exist. And that's very hard because we grow up watching our parents work, and you know how people work and collaboration has to happen face to face, and all those things are still in our belief system, and breaking that is very difficult. Deeply held beliefs about the way work needs to happen is a hard thing to break. So we have to have some grace with people and with managers. But I love to hear some of the things you're doing because you're flipping that right, not sitting people in the box.

26:02 Box doesn't exist, right. What you're producing and you're producing and the deadline is the work. Yeah, are the deadlines? That's right, that's right. And again the beauty of it, and again I can feel the unleashed energy in the work product. It literally dances, and so you know, okay, so let's get to these beliefs. Here at this you have this really interesting, fun concept called sludge. So let's introduce sludge and talk about just how what it is and how we can manage it. I love how you treat this in the book. So sludge is the thing that holds work culture together. It's glue, and. What it is is it's making a judgment about how somebody else is spending their time.

26:44 To pull them back in to the example of them right. So an example might be all those people with kids, they always get to leave early. So right now we're saying they need to stay as long as I am right, and I'm going to get that out there so they feel bad and guilty. Or I might say, how at least ten o'clock and you're just getting in. I wish I could come in later every day. Or I might say, oh, I didn't see you on teams yesterday. Did you take a vacation day? So I become the judger right to make Becker's other person feel guilty. And what we figured out was first of all different kinds of sludge, but. We figured out a way to stop that.

27:25 In its tracks and create an environment where people talked about the work, not how people were spending their time. So if you in the results only work environment, which is autonomous and accountable, and you come and say to me ten o'clock and you're just getting in, I wouldn't go, oh, I know, but my daughter was throwing up this morning, and then my dog and my this, and I wouldn't make an excuse I would look at you and say, Elise, is there something you need? Because guess what, if you don't need anything, you're a big judger. If you do need some they asked me for it, you don't have to sludge me. First. What they're created is a big space of oh, we talk about the work, and so now I know how to eradicate sludge.

28:15 So if a sluedger comes. At me, I feel more powerful because I'm going to talk about the work. I'm going to talk about the work. You say that to me, I'm going to ask you what you need. So a couple of things that I really want to pull out here so our listeners and viewers get this. So by first giving this thing a name, this is a beast that lives in the organization here, this sludging that we do here. So now and then you and then you. Part of your your methodology is that you help people learn that, you know, start to call out all the you know, hundred ways literally hundred ways that we sludge around here. Now it lives in more of a conscious level. Okay, now I can start to do something about this. Back on the ten o'clock arrival. Thing they don't know is this person's been working at home since six am, so now you're getting double judged here.

29:05 It's just it's just so gross. So I love that. I love that. First if you say, you know, we're going to we're going to identify this thing called sludge and let's start talking about all the ways we sledge around here, people laugh about it and realize just how you know, big it is. Now we have something to work with and we can push back and say, you know, hey, Jodie, I think you're sledging me there, right, And people do that right, and now we can start to change the belief system of the organization. This is when things start to change. They have not change, and it's great because when people start to. Let all that guilt that they feel, we all feel guilt. I have one leader say to me, I don't know what it is about that sledge, he said, but everybody in my team looks taller. I mean, I thought, well, that's interesting. But it's because people when they let all that burden of having to constantly be explaining, explaining, explaining, it's exhausting for people.

30:05 And it's yes, fucking I know. And that's again why we are all about trafficking and energy, Tody. I so get this, and then here's where it gets even more beautiful. You say in your book that when there is no sledge, it's harder for people, or impossible even for people organizations to reinforce that status quo. This is how we grind people into place. When there isn't sledge, or you hold it to be accountable and you call it out, then it helps you remove that status quo that you've been clinging to all this time, and now we have possibility for something new. Absolutely, it just opens everything up. And there I will say that are people, very very small percentage that just want to come in and eight and stay the five and be busy. I say that in your quotes because they feel comfortable there and the results call we work environment.

30:53 You can. That's how you want to do it, because nobody's going to judge your time. But you still have to get accountable to results. So you can't really hide. You can't hide. You have to step forward and you have to talk to your results coach and say, you. Know, I'm not really clear about where I'm going here. Let's talk about that. Not I wanted to let you all my schedule for the week and I'm going to commendate every day and blah blah, blah blah, it doesn't matter what's the work. I thought that was one of one of the more one of the many powerful things you have in your book that for the people that maybe have bought into the idea of I've learned the game, that I know how to coast, they won't make it in a results on the environment. No, they won't.

31:33 And sometimes people say, well, what do you mean results only so we can't have any fun, We can't you know, yeah. You know that kind of thing. And it's what I've learned through this is people actually are more bonded because what they're bonded on is the purpose and the outcome of what their team is doing what they're doing, and because they're not judging each other and playing the game, they feel closer each other. And said that one person said to me, I never wanted to got a happy hour with my. Team, and she goes, now I do. Do. I want to see them at different times and now that the sort of the time clock blew up, we have space for those relationships, right, And I feel like you always say those nasty things to me.

32:24 So right, why way I want to socialize with you after hours or whatever. Right exactly, I'm going to go home to my family. So like some soulness, it's fright. So I think I think you're you nail it on the head of lease when you. Talk about what's possible and what's possible, what's human, what's possible for people, and what's possible when you have this kind of power inside an organization where the people really are present, present, not in the office, not not a present location, but present to the. Work, present, plugged in and turned on. Yeah, yes, exactly right, and living our lives. We must remember that we have a whole life.

33:05 Right, yes, all right. Let's let our listeners to on that possibility. Stand in that space. Listeners of yours, just imagine that possibility. If you're a leader, if you're somebody working inside an organization, I want you to stand in that possibility while we go on this next break. I'm your host, doctor Elie Cortez. We've go on the air with Jodie Foster, who is known for helping companies rethink workplace culture, leadership, and performance in ways that drive stronger results and lasting change. We've been hearing us talk about some of the things that have been stopping this whole movement. Here after the break, we're going to peel back even further how you can start to get into what she calls results only workplace environment guideposts that will help you really undo this thing on its head. We'll be right back.

34:00 Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite Alease to speak to your organization, please visit her at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Alise A Lisee at elisecortes dot com. Now back to working on purpose.

34:52 Thanks for stating with us, and welcome back to working on purpose. I hope you enjoyed that little stud that you had in this last break thinking about possibility. Host doctor at Last Cortez. As you know by now, this program is dedicated to empowering and inspiring you along your journey to realize more of your potential. If you'd like to learn more about where you are and the Gusto Leadership Spectrum, one way to do that is go to LinkedIn find me at Last Cortez, scroll down to the futured section and you will find the Gusto Leadership Spectrum assessment. And while you're there connect with me as well. You'll learn a lot about yourself and other possibilities in your own development. If you are just now joining us. My guest is Jodie Thompson. She's the co author of Why Work Sucks and How to Fix It The Results Only Revolution.

35:34 So these thirteen guy posts are if you look at these things just from the outside and you didn't know much like you and I are more steeped in, you would really start laughing, right, And I know that's your whole point, and it works, It works great, And there's just a few. I don't want to go through all thirteen because that would take too long, and there's other things I wanted to talk about, but I would like to give our listeners and viewers a flavor. There's a few that I think are pretty pretty fun to talk about. But do you have a couple favorites that you want to talk about? Oh, I do have two favorites. Well here one is. So first of all, let me just say to your listeners that the thirteen guide posts are aspirational goals. When you reach those goals, you're closer to autonomy and accountability.

36:18 Each one of them helps you get closer to that idea of autonomy and accountability. So one of my favorites is every day feels like Saturday. That's one of my favorites too. So people go crazy, they say, well, every day isn't Saturday. I know, I know it isn't. But in a row, every day feels like Saturday because on Saturday, who controls your time? You do? Nobody's sludging you and telling you when you need to do the laundry and how long the laundry needs to take, and you know when you need to empty the dishwasher. So every day feels like Saturday means every day of the week, I control all of my time. That's what that means. And so to make every day feels like Saturday. True, we have to build on autonomy and accountability at the same time, because we need to understand what my role is and how I'm achieving that through measurable results. My other favorite one is every meeting is optional, so I can see, you know, people's skins falling off their arms and face.

37:26 You know when they hear that, You're just like, no, some are fundatory. Well, here's the thing. If you have a clear outcome for your. Meeting and everybody agrees that meeting is the best way to get to that, then people will show up. You don't have to say mandatory, right, But what we do, and I ask this everywhere when you look at your time and meetings during the week, one percent of your time meetings, all your meetings, how much of that time is And people tell me fifty eight ninety percent waste the time because there might be an agenda, but there's no outcome.

38:11 It's not helping me do my work better. It's filling time and I could have been doing something to actually do. My work and you're wasting my time. So what's been interesting about Every meeting is Optional is people are standing up and asking the meeting organizer, why are we meeting, what's the outcome? How do I need to prepare? What do we expect to happen in this meeting to help us do our work better? And when we start asking those questions, the meeting organizer might, oh, what is there a better way for us to do this? Yes, there is, here's how we can do it. And so what it does, again is it opens up people's minds to how can we all achieve it? We need to achieve in a way that's that's good for all of us and not feel like another meeting and I have to go that I already know is a waste of my time.

39:03 Well, and when so many people already their whole lives. What people tell me when we're working verizations is well, here's my schedule. It's all back to back meetings, and then I'll do my work, you know, afterwards, because that's when I can get it done. Yeah, I'll do my work afterwards when I actually have space in my life. That I hear this all the time. So I love this, that the idea that meetings are optional, Okay, go ahead. I want to just say to people out there the reoccurring meeting, Oh, everybody, even look at that on their calendars, because why are you having a reoccurring meeting? Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. Ask yourself that anyway, keep going the least. So we're just it just goes byself fast. And there's more I want to extract out of you. So I want to get since this whole notion, this is a thought leadership platform that advances the conversation on creating what we call these destination workplaces and these inspirational leaders we will you know, find and deliver their greatness. And you've already said how updated that we've been using this work model since the fifties. We're talking seventy five years later, ladies and gentlemen and folks. So so we really need to you know, start looking at can we start looking at this? Finally? Can we start doing this? So you say in your book that you know, when you when you introduce the idea of a what you call a ROW environment and that is short for results only work environment, are owe, you get two kinds of reactions and I want to talk about those. So people immediately get it and they're like, yeah, this makes great. It's relentlessly pragmatic.

40:27 And then you have the people that are like, this is the most doomsday ridiculous thing I've ever heard. And let's talk about both of those. So who gets it and what do they see in this possibility? So what's so interesting about that is the people that are excited about it. Managers, let's say, that are excited about it. This is how they want to lead, but they're in a system that doesn't allow that. Yeah, they have to play by the rules of the system. So if they start going roll, the organization is going. To pull them back in like a giant hair ball. We don't allow people to blah blah blah. So if I call it the giant hairball, there's a book about that, by the way, Yes, I think I've heard of it.

41:08 Yeah, it's a really good one. So when you try to act outsider I call off culture, you'll get pulled back in. And these leaders are like, this is the. Answer, this is what was kind of in my soul, but I didn't know how to do it, and you're bringing a process to help us do it. Okay. So that's one side. The other side is the fear I think people want to hear about it. There they have a fear of not being able to actually do the job. They're supposed to do right, either flying under. The radar, or they're really good at micromanaging, or you know, they don't know how to manage to resolve. So there's kind of an area there where it's it's fear based, not really based on what the possibilities are any of that.

41:52 It's just an instant you're sort of putting up your barrier. To I can't do being something like this. Now we find on leadership teams. Is you'll get thirty percent of the leaders bring it on, you'll get thirty percent of them going not in my company, and then you've have people on the fence in the middle. So usually there's enough pull to start adopting an idea like this through training of course, and bring people along that might have that fear that they're not going to be able to perform in this kind of environment. I want to extend this a bit, and I want to do this for our listeners and viewers in a way that they receive as you know, you and I both know is called carefrontation. Because I want this conversation to be provocative. I want you to question your ideals, why you do the things that you do. So what I would put forth based on other authors that I have had on this program talking about some of these same things, is there's a few other contributing factors that that are on the doom sayer side, that say no can do side. What some of those are is if I don't, if I don't have this control, people won't do the work. They don't want to work, people are lazy.

43:08 And this whole idea of you know, work is inherently an achy thing that people have to do. And so if you know, if I don't, you know, nail their dairy air to the seat, they're not going to do it. And so I want you all to really listeners and viewers to really think about the way you think about work and accountability and such. You were going to say, Jody, yes, I was going to say, it's not the work that sucks, right, so we're forced to do it? Yes, right, right, right? And so that's the stuff, these underlying beliefs that are driving all of these crazy, silly, backwards assumptions. I need you, you know, part of what Jody's work is and so it is ours is to help illuminate those mindsets and how they're working. Some cases for you in many cases against you. You got to first start by understanding what's what's making you think that this will.

43:56 Never work right, And that's that belief system we talked about, Elise, and I believe that if you know people are in the office, they're working. I believe that if I'm not, they're managing by walking around, they won't work. People will work. People want to get do a good job. They want to but they have to have the right environment, like you and I talk about, in order to help them flourish. And you know sludge. Getting rid of sludge is a big first step. And ran managers out there saying, does everybody on my team clear about measurable results? Are they clear about the work? Myself? That yes? And one thing I also want to reinforce here that you have in your book, that we also see when we do our work with organizations is that when you allow this kind of autonomy that you talk about accountability an economy and you extend this to people, now what happens is people are actually more responsible rather than less, because now they're being rewarded with freedom and they don't want to lose that and that trust that you're sending them is delicious for them, and you know that is something. Now you're treating them like an adult instead of a child. So now you get this increased responsibility and leaning in and this willingness to help fellow team members to get work done because of all of this condition that you've provided for your people. And it is so beautiful.

45:19 It is the people don't want to lose this. Once they have it, they will work, you know, not harder in the sense of how we thought about it in the fifties, but they'll work to make sure that they're delivering and they'll help their teammates with it tool because nobody wants to lose it. That idea that I can own all of my time. And that doesn't mean I don't go to a meeting or I don't have to you know, show up. To open the door at a restaurant. It doesn't mean that. It means that I am I'm the driver of me. Right, I'm to see you of my own life. Yes, that's right, and everybody can be that. And if people can't, for example, they know what their results are and they've talked about it with their results coach and they still can achieve it, then we have a performance issue. Right, So it's performance conversations really all the time.

46:10 Well, that's the other thing I want to reinforce about what you say in your book here for a ROW environment to work, for a ROW culture to work, what it means more and good better communication with your coworkers, your boss or upper management. So getting more specific about well, what do I actually need you to deliver? Otherwise that's part of the problem is I just tell you to get the job done. Well, what's the actual job? What do you actually need me to deliver? And so what I really appreciate is that you're also saying that you know, now managed to become more coaching versus task masters. We're communicating the value of what we're doing as well as how we want people to do their work, you know, actually produce their work, what is good look like. And most organizations, as you're saying, they don't do that because they rely on being able to pop in to their cube or whatever and say, oh I forgot to tell you this, or oh I actually mean this. So I think it's really critical that we say that to be effective in a ROW environment, we have to up our gainment communication.

47:10 We absolutely have to. And I like to give people. This one small example, if I say to you, Elise, are you. Going to be in tomorrow? I ask you that question now for you. And the results only working r You'd be like, well, first of all, I'm on the planet. Right, yeah, right exactly, of course I'm in. Right, and. I don't know where I need to be physically if I don't know what you want or need. So we start off by trying. To find out where people are, what time they're working, instead of saying, here's what I need. Let's talk about when we can do that, Y how I can get that? You know, it's not starting out with time and locations, starting out with just having a conversation.

47:53 With somebody about what you need from them, and then they can decide where their body needs to be. Right. And I talked about that too in one of my last books too, is you get rid of where work gets done? We don't have time to talk about this, but I just want to say this to listeners and viewers. There are several really great examples that Jody and her co author talk about in the book that have gone to a row environment, and one of them, of course's Girl Scouts of send Gorgonio council. Anyway, I just want to pick up the darn book. Read this thing. It's got just all kinds of stuff that's going to make you really think differently about yourself, your company, your leadership and possibilities. So I want to thank you Jody for writing the book, doing the work that you do. We are so aligned it's crazy and I love to have you on today. So thank you for coming on.

48:44 It's been my pleasure. May me say, in like twenty seconds, what would you like to leave our listeners and viewers with. I would just like to say that the world is moving pretty fast, and the world is changing, and we have the technology to do things differently and be better. Focus on what matters, the work in your life. Beautiful way to close, Jody. Thank you listeners and viewers. You are going to want to learn more about Jodie Thompson, the work that she and her team do at Culture r X, and her books, including y Work Sucks, So start by visiting their website. It's just simply go row dot com. Let me spell that for you. It's g O rowe dot com. Goow dot com. Last week, if you missed the live show, you can always catch it be recorded podcast. We were on air with Susan mckenttie Brady, a leadership educator, executive coach, and CEO of Simmons University Institute for Inclusive Leadership. A Wall Street journalist bestselling author, Susan's work focuses on the human side of leadership, emphasizing self awareness, connection, and the relational skills at drive performance.

49:48 We talked about her newest book, All the Difference six Leadership Actions to bridge perspectives, strengthen teams, and create value, which is all about harnessing your difference intelligence to unite your team and create dynamic resc through their uniqueness. Next week will be on air with Opal Mauldon Jones. She's the city manager of the City of Lancaster, that's a Dallas suburb. We'll be talking about her approach over the last nine years to intentionally develop her thread and twenty employees, teach them emotional intelligence and seek more ways to give greater access to their community for jobs while also elevating the quality of life for the residents they serve. See you, then let's continue learning leaning in to help more people flourish, elevate your operating system as a leader and create destination workplaces where legendary business takes place. Let's work on Purpose.

50:37 We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes, each week on W four CY. Together, we'll create a world where business operates conscientiously. Leadership inspires and passion performance and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning and purpose They crave see you there. Let's work on Purpose.