Optimal Care and Feeding of Your Powerful Ambition

WEBVTT

1
00:00:05.240 --> 00:00:09.439
What's working on purpose anyway? Each
week we ponder the answer to this question.

2
00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:15.119
People ache for meaning and purpose at
work to contribute their talents passionately and

3
00:00:15.240 --> 00:00:20.280
know their lives really matter. They
crave being part of an organization that inspires

4
00:00:20.320 --> 00:00:25.320
them and helps them grow into realizing
their highest potential business can be such a

5
00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:29.719
force for good in the world,
elevating humanity. In our program, we

6
00:00:29.800 --> 00:00:34.799
provide guidance and inspiration to help usher
in this world we all want working on

7
00:00:34.880 --> 00:00:44.159
purpose. Now. Here is your
host, doctor Elise Cortes. Welcome back

8
00:00:44.200 --> 00:00:46.880
to the Working and Purpose Program.
Thanks for joining again this week. I'm

9
00:00:46.920 --> 00:00:49.679
your host, doctor Release Cortes.
Joining you live from Dallas, Texas,

10
00:00:49.719 --> 00:00:52.280
which is home based for me.
If you don't know me yet, I'm

11
00:00:52.280 --> 00:00:57.200
a management consultant specializing in meaning and
purpose, organizational local therapist, inspirational speaker,

12
00:00:57.320 --> 00:01:00.560
social scientist, and author. My
team and I help company discover and

13
00:01:00.679 --> 00:01:03.599
articulate their purpose to throw it through
their culture and operations. We work with

14
00:01:03.680 --> 00:01:08.799
forward thinking or forward reaching organizations to
develop inspirational leaders. We create cultures where

15
00:01:08.840 --> 00:01:11.840
people actually want to come to work
and do their best, and we provide

16
00:01:11.879 --> 00:01:15.920
programs like the Grab Your Gusto that
enable individual team members to discover an unleas

17
00:01:15.920 --> 00:01:21.519
sur passionate purpose at work to catalyze
fulfillment, engagement, and productivity. You

18
00:01:21.640 --> 00:01:23.400
learn more about us now. We
can work together at at leascore, test

19
00:01:23.439 --> 00:01:29.879
dot com or gustoshnow dot com.
With us today is Nikolai chen Nielsen,

20
00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:34.719
the director of Transformation Services at Peacon, a workday company, and a partner

21
00:01:34.760 --> 00:01:38.519
at the Super Trends Institute. He
has co authored to best selling books,

22
00:01:38.519 --> 00:01:42.519
Return on Ambition and Leadership at Scale. We'll be talking about what we can

23
00:01:42.560 --> 00:01:46.040
learn about our ambition and how to
best manage it, how to listen to

24
00:01:46.040 --> 00:01:49.359
the voice of employee and impact the
employee engagement, and how organizations can create

25
00:01:49.439 --> 00:01:53.400
environments where ambitious people thrive. You
do it to today from Italy, Nicolai.

26
00:01:53.599 --> 00:01:57.200
Welcome to Working on Purpose. Thank
you great to be here. So

27
00:01:57.319 --> 00:02:00.239
let me start by telling our listeners
and yours how I found you. I

28
00:02:00.319 --> 00:02:04.480
was minding my own business. I
was traveling in Sacramento, California, in

29
00:02:04.560 --> 00:02:08.400
January of this year. I'm in
the airport and this book calls me from

30
00:02:08.439 --> 00:02:14.639
across the airport and return eventually.
How gorgeous thing is literally I'm walking through

31
00:02:14.680 --> 00:02:16.639
the airport. I'm just planning to
stop in the bookstore, and the thing

32
00:02:16.879 --> 00:02:21.719
just was a beak and it just
summoned me. So that's how I found

33
00:02:21.719 --> 00:02:23.199
you. And of course i've been
I've had this on my shelf, So

34
00:02:23.319 --> 00:02:28.960
you are in organic source Nikolai.
Normally my authors come to me through public

35
00:02:29.000 --> 00:02:31.400
relations representatives who say, hey,
do you want to have my author on

36
00:02:31.439 --> 00:02:35.719
your show. I found you organically
on my own, so thank you for

37
00:02:35.719 --> 00:02:38.039
saying yes to joining me on the
show. I'm so happy to hear their

38
00:02:38.080 --> 00:02:42.240
story and that you picked it up. And as you mentioned earlier, you

39
00:02:42.240 --> 00:02:45.120
you read the book, which I'm
very happy about it. I do that.

40
00:02:45.240 --> 00:02:46.599
I sort of have this habit of
bringing these things cover to cover.

41
00:02:46.759 --> 00:02:52.360
So let's open this show if we
can. I think it's really interesting that

42
00:02:52.479 --> 00:02:55.439
the idea of addressing this notion of
ambition, So the word itself, I'm

43
00:02:55.520 --> 00:03:00.719
very aware, smacks difinitely for people
positively or negatively. So let's start with

44
00:03:00.759 --> 00:03:05.080
how you define ambition? Yeah,
absolutely, it's It was really one of

45
00:03:05.120 --> 00:03:08.680
the first questions my co author and
I we we looked at because, as

46
00:03:08.680 --> 00:03:13.960
you mentioned, different cultures, different
people define ambition very differently, and we

47
00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:15.680
felt like none of them actually really
hit the mark. And as we were

48
00:03:15.680 --> 00:03:21.039
looking into it as part of our
research, we made a slightly different ambition

49
00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:25.360
definition, which we think is quite
ambitious. So we define it as a

50
00:03:25.479 --> 00:03:32.599
future state which is different from today, challenging to get to, personally meaningful,

51
00:03:32.719 --> 00:03:36.479
and one which you have a strong
yearning and drive to get to.

52
00:03:36.919 --> 00:03:38.680
Right. So it's this notion that
there's a future out there that you really

53
00:03:38.680 --> 00:03:43.120
want to get to. It's not
easy to get to, but you want

54
00:03:43.159 --> 00:03:46.479
you you're driven to do so mm
hmm. What I love about that,

55
00:03:46.560 --> 00:03:49.840
Nicolay, of course, is there's
just such I love the energy behind that,

56
00:03:49.960 --> 00:03:52.800
I love the passion behind and I
love the intensity behind that. And

57
00:03:52.840 --> 00:03:54.919
I just am so aware that you
know, when you think about what can

58
00:03:54.919 --> 00:03:59.319
you do with your one precious life, ambition is such a powerful resource,

59
00:03:59.439 --> 00:04:02.719
right, so love that you have
taken a whole book to treat it and

60
00:04:02.919 --> 00:04:06.520
how we can actually productively steward it. That's also really important. And so

61
00:04:08.879 --> 00:04:12.800
you said in our introductory conversation that
ambition has been a big part of your

62
00:04:12.840 --> 00:04:16.240
life. How So, yeah,
definitely has. As far back as I

63
00:04:16.279 --> 00:04:19.839
can remember, I've always just wanted
to do something out of the ordinary.

64
00:04:20.199 --> 00:04:24.199
Even as a child at that time, I wanted to be a professional soccer

65
00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:27.160
player. And this is at you
know, age four and five, and

66
00:04:27.439 --> 00:04:30.959
I guess at that time you don't
really know better than just what's what's your

67
00:04:30.040 --> 00:04:33.319
dream? And my dream was to
be the world's best soccer player. I

68
00:04:33.360 --> 00:04:36.720
watched the World Cup and you see
all the people on TV, and that

69
00:04:36.879 --> 00:04:41.079
was just what I wanted to do. And even throughout my teens, I

70
00:04:41.160 --> 00:04:46.000
was still going for that ambition.
I was training every day after high school,

71
00:04:46.040 --> 00:04:48.319
so, you know, living very
much not a normal life, but

72
00:04:48.399 --> 00:04:53.759
simultaneously focusing on getting good grades and
having a social life and kind of wanting

73
00:04:53.759 --> 00:04:58.639
it all at the same time.
And that's continued ever since m and listeners

74
00:04:58.639 --> 00:05:01.560
and viewers. I don't even know
how many times the word soccer or football

75
00:05:01.680 --> 00:05:04.079
is sprinkled in the book. But
it's fantastic, now I know, and

76
00:05:04.120 --> 00:05:10.319
now I better understand why. Okay, So then the other thing that's really

77
00:05:10.360 --> 00:05:12.959
awesome about what you do in the
book, you know, because it's this

78
00:05:13.120 --> 00:05:15.720
notion you say it right in the
beginning, Nikolay, about this notion of

79
00:05:16.079 --> 00:05:19.600
ambition is such an important resource in
our lives, and it needs to be

80
00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:25.639
stewarded and handled well in order for
us to have that optimal return on ambition.

81
00:05:26.199 --> 00:05:30.079
So what I appreciate too, is
you render that critical formula of a

82
00:05:30.120 --> 00:05:33.800
healthy balance between achievement, growth and
well being. And so you've been studying

83
00:05:33.839 --> 00:05:39.399
the effects of ambition who and people
put forth great efforts in service of their

84
00:05:39.399 --> 00:05:43.680
ambition, and you've noticed that that
oftentimes that's at the expense of their health

85
00:05:43.720 --> 00:05:47.040
and their relationships. Tell us more
about that. Yeah, the title of

86
00:05:47.120 --> 00:05:50.360
return on ambition is a little bit
of a provocation because you have it in

87
00:05:50.399 --> 00:05:54.519
business, return on assets, return
on investment, and so forth. And

88
00:05:55.000 --> 00:05:59.279
when you think about ambitious people,
their efforts, their time, their resources

89
00:05:59.279 --> 00:06:01.879
that they put into their ambitions often
the biggest investment that they are making in

90
00:06:01.920 --> 00:06:05.879
their life. They're so driven to
get there, and often it's a little

91
00:06:05.879 --> 00:06:11.800
bit it's very subconscious, and it's
not really measured in a systematic way.

92
00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:14.839
And of course it's not going to
be a perfect measurement for what your return

93
00:06:14.879 --> 00:06:16.480
on ambition is, but we tried
to do our best to actually make one

94
00:06:17.160 --> 00:06:21.000
and what we found. You mentioned
those three elements of achievement growth, and

95
00:06:21.040 --> 00:06:26.000
well being. We find that people
who are successful and fulfilled over time,

96
00:06:26.399 --> 00:06:29.879
and who would say they have a
high return on their ambition, they balance

97
00:06:29.959 --> 00:06:33.079
these three elements of achievement, growth, and well being, and any imbalances

98
00:06:33.120 --> 00:06:36.720
that they might have are the result
of a very deliberate choice that they took,

99
00:06:36.759 --> 00:06:43.079
and it's short term in nature.
It doesn't work to have a am

100
00:06:43.079 --> 00:06:45.800
balance in one of them over time
because it'll pull down the other two.

101
00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:49.319
So the most obvious one is well
being. If you're nearing burnout or if

102
00:06:49.319 --> 00:06:53.600
you're just working too much, it's
going to pull down your levels of achievement

103
00:06:54.199 --> 00:06:55.920
over time, it's going to pull
down a level of growth. But it

104
00:06:55.959 --> 00:06:59.600
works the other way too. We
have had a lot of cases where people

105
00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:03.600
actuallyually get burned out because they feel
like they're not growing, they feel bored,

106
00:07:03.600 --> 00:07:06.839
they feel like they've stagnated. And
the same goes for achievement. If

107
00:07:06.879 --> 00:07:10.600
you're not achieving, you definitely feel
like you're not doing what you meant to

108
00:07:10.600 --> 00:07:15.560
be doing in life. Mm hmm. Yeah. And I also appreciate that

109
00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:18.879
you also address specifically in the book
that you've seen people where when they pursue

110
00:07:18.920 --> 00:07:23.959
their ambitions. Obviously, it's it
is sometimes greatly at the expense of the

111
00:07:24.079 --> 00:07:29.120
relationships or their health and right,
and I can probably say in some ways

112
00:07:29.120 --> 00:07:31.560
I'm guilty of that. And so
part of the reason I probably picked up

113
00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:35.600
your book it called me, is
because I do consider myself an ambitious person,

114
00:07:35.639 --> 00:07:38.920
as we spoke about, and there's
so much more I want to do.

115
00:07:39.000 --> 00:07:42.600
And what I also appreciate about your
book is I love that you've created

116
00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:46.160
it, as you say, a
democratic coaching sort of mechanism to be able

117
00:07:46.199 --> 00:07:49.560
to offer anyone the coaching that you
created in the book, and you're teaching

118
00:07:49.639 --> 00:07:53.439
us how to be able to steward
that journey, which is just brilliant.

119
00:07:53.759 --> 00:07:56.160
I really want to call out and
thank you for that. It's gorgeous.

120
00:07:56.480 --> 00:08:01.600
Yeah, it's thank you for that, and it's very very much. It

121
00:08:01.680 --> 00:08:03.560
was really fulfilling to write the book
because it was part of my personal journey

122
00:08:03.600 --> 00:08:07.959
for many years. And we looked
at ambition for more than six years as

123
00:08:07.000 --> 00:08:13.000
a research topic, and we found
that the vast majority of working professionals across

124
00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:16.480
any industry, whether it's the arts, the sports, music, entrepreneurship,

125
00:08:16.480 --> 00:08:18.920
and so forth, would say they're
ambitious, but they often struggle. So

126
00:08:20.079 --> 00:08:24.319
it's a huge gap, and that
stewardship of this valuable resource is ultimately what's

127
00:08:24.399 --> 00:08:30.120
needed to make humanity a better place. I agree, And you know where

128
00:08:30.120 --> 00:08:31.960
I've kind of come from, Nicolaia
is I love your word, you know,

129
00:08:33.039 --> 00:08:37.000
provovocation that your book is provoking.
That's what I stand to do as

130
00:08:37.000 --> 00:08:41.120
well, because I'm really out to
awaken people to their passionate purpose and then

131
00:08:41.159 --> 00:08:43.360
do something with it, because the
world needs that, and your life is

132
00:08:43.399 --> 00:08:46.960
often so much more fulfilling when you
do reach for that. So I appreciate

133
00:08:48.559 --> 00:08:50.759
the recipe that you've given us to
be able to help better manage that.

134
00:08:52.320 --> 00:08:56.480
And then further you talk about I
appreciate too this helps us really get more

135
00:08:56.519 --> 00:09:01.120
granular on the matter, because our
mission sounds like just just this big broad

136
00:09:01.240 --> 00:09:03.879
banner. Could you really help break
it down for us? And yet you

137
00:09:03.879 --> 00:09:07.480
talk about there are four premises of
ambition. Will you address each one of

138
00:09:07.519 --> 00:09:11.759
those? Yeah, Because ambition is
very it's very personal, and I think

139
00:09:11.799 --> 00:09:13.799
one of the gaps is when we
try to pursue something which is an impersonal

140
00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:18.399
definition of ambition. So one of
the first steps we do in the book

141
00:09:18.519 --> 00:09:20.879
is to help people define a little
bit more clearly what their ambition is.

142
00:09:20.919 --> 00:09:26.639
And we have four premises around specificity
or is it? Is it specific or

143
00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:31.039
is it broad? Number one?
Is it unique or is it has it

144
00:09:31.120 --> 00:09:35.240
been done before? Is it relatively
big or small from where you are today

145
00:09:35.240 --> 00:09:39.120
and your current skills? And then
is it one of many priorities or is

146
00:09:39.159 --> 00:09:43.039
it the literally the one thing that's
on your mind during all of your waking

147
00:09:43.159 --> 00:09:48.559
and sleeping hours. And we find
that people actually answer it very differently and

148
00:09:48.600 --> 00:09:54.000
there is no better or worse.
One example was just Into Ardern, who

149
00:09:54.080 --> 00:09:58.399
was the youngest female head of State
New Zealand I think at age thirty seven.

150
00:09:58.440 --> 00:10:01.879
You're incredible story. But she was
very targeted. You know, she

151
00:10:01.919 --> 00:10:07.320
was always interested in politics. She
joined the Youth Party early on, became

152
00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:09.480
a member of Parliament and then head
of States. It was a it was

153
00:10:09.519 --> 00:10:13.720
a quite let's say, narrow focus
in terms of what she wanted to do

154
00:10:13.759 --> 00:10:15.799
and she knew she wanted to do
that. That's how she felt she could

155
00:10:15.840 --> 00:10:18.720
give back most while someone like Trevor
Noa he said he felt like dreams would

156
00:10:18.759 --> 00:10:24.120
would limit him and he never reading
that was amazing. Yeah, and it's

157
00:10:24.240 --> 00:10:28.639
it's it's incredible to see both of
their paths to where they are today,

158
00:10:28.960 --> 00:10:31.840
but just having done the path so
differently. Mm hmm. I love also,

159
00:10:31.840 --> 00:10:35.120
by the way, the stories they
really helped give us access to the

160
00:10:35.919 --> 00:10:39.200
concepts that you were describing. That
just really makes it work. So thank

161
00:10:39.240 --> 00:10:41.720
you for that as well. And
I'm a big fan of both of those

162
00:10:41.720 --> 00:10:46.320
people that you just just mentioned,
so giving more access to them as well.

163
00:10:46.360 --> 00:10:48.679
Okay, good good, all right, So next one I want to

164
00:10:48.679 --> 00:10:52.919
cover. It was really quite interesting, Nicolay that you talk about seven friend

165
00:10:52.919 --> 00:10:56.080
amies of ambition, and I'd like
to talk about each one of them in

166
00:10:56.120 --> 00:11:00.159
turn. And I did identify which
ones were mine, by the way,

167
00:11:01.320 --> 00:11:05.519
So would you take us through a
tour of them please? Yes. Absolutely.

168
00:11:07.639 --> 00:11:09.639
You mentioned the brain having stories in
the book and so forth, and

169
00:11:11.080 --> 00:11:16.960
we identified seven frenemies with the same
spirit of wanting to make real what people

170
00:11:18.039 --> 00:11:22.320
actually feel with their ambitions, and
what they often feel is this dual pulling

171
00:11:22.360 --> 00:11:24.720
of things that help them. That's
a friend of ambition, but at the

172
00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:28.639
same time sometimes holds them back and
can become an enemy of ambition. And

173
00:11:28.639 --> 00:11:31.559
that's why we coin the term frenemy. And we tried to bring them to

174
00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:37.519
life by giving them a character.
So the seventh frenemies are things like competitiveness,

175
00:11:37.039 --> 00:11:43.480
things like perseverance, a strong desire, a strong independence, boldness,

176
00:11:43.720 --> 00:11:48.120
flexibility, and convention. And they're
all wonderful traits. If you're competitive,

177
00:11:48.440 --> 00:11:52.799
that's great. It will help you
get ahead, you know, relatively where

178
00:11:52.840 --> 00:11:56.600
you are versus others and so forth. But that can also have a bit

179
00:11:56.600 --> 00:11:58.080
of a dark side, and the
same goes for the other ones too.

180
00:12:00.960 --> 00:12:03.200
Well, let's talk about that just
for a second here. For example,

181
00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:07.320
let's I'll just you know, I'll
be I'll be a candidate and forth right.

182
00:12:07.080 --> 00:12:13.039
I recognize myself heartily in independence.
So could you contrast for the listeners

183
00:12:13.080 --> 00:12:16.360
and viewers with the friend side and
the enemy side of independence. Yeah.

184
00:12:16.759 --> 00:12:22.399
Independence on the friend side is the
ability to get things done by yourself,

185
00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:26.159
going a bit solo and not having
to rely on others. Typically you're very

186
00:12:26.240 --> 00:12:30.120
much of a self starter and you're
very much able to come through hard times

187
00:12:30.159 --> 00:12:31.759
even if you don't know exactly what
to do. You have a bit of

188
00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:35.600
a mindset like I'll figure it out, I can do this, I trust

189
00:12:35.600 --> 00:12:41.039
myself. The enemy side is when
you failed to bring others on board.

190
00:12:41.600 --> 00:12:43.159
And that can either mean that the
others actually don't know what you're doing if

191
00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:46.720
you're in an organization and not fully
aligned to it, or you don't get

192
00:12:46.720 --> 00:12:50.519
their input. But certainly also it
can hold you back because you don't learn

193
00:12:50.519 --> 00:12:54.440
from others. And we had a
fantastic story from Sandford Biggers, who's an

194
00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:56.919
amazing artist based out of New York, and he was saying he had this

195
00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:01.960
independence front of me, and he
had this idea that every piece of work

196
00:13:01.960 --> 00:13:05.919
that came out of his workshop had
to have his hand, his breaststroke on

197
00:13:07.039 --> 00:13:11.159
it, when all his other peers
are setting up studios with lots of people

198
00:13:11.200 --> 00:13:13.159
working with them, and he felt
that one time that it was just holding

199
00:13:13.240 --> 00:13:18.360
him back because a he wasn't able
to meet demand of his art, but

200
00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:20.720
b he actually wasn't learning from other
people that he could have been working with.

201
00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:24.159
Yeah, so the other brilliant thing
that you do in the book is

202
00:13:24.159 --> 00:13:26.879
then you help us, you give
us a root, cause where does the

203
00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:31.679
stuff come from? And I recognized
heartily that you said one of the things

204
00:13:31.919 --> 00:13:35.600
one of the ways that we develop
independence as a frenemy is that we found

205
00:13:35.600 --> 00:13:39.600
ourselves doing group projects. Maybe in
school early on, and we were the

206
00:13:39.679 --> 00:13:43.639
only ones doing the work. Everybody
else kind of slacked. And I recognize

207
00:13:43.679 --> 00:13:46.279
that in myself and my daughter who's
eighteen, has the same total, same

208
00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:50.639
thing going on. So I also
appreciate that you distinguish the root causes and

209
00:13:50.679 --> 00:13:54.320
where the stuff comes from. That
helps people understand much more about themselves when

210
00:13:54.360 --> 00:13:58.480
you do that. Yeah, because
if enemies have been formed since early childhood

211
00:14:00.039 --> 00:14:01.840
part of us, so the answer
is not to get rid of them,

212
00:14:01.879 --> 00:14:05.559
and to some extent, you'll never
really get rid of your freenemies, but

213
00:14:05.600 --> 00:14:07.720
it's about becoming aware. So you're
managing them and they're not managing you.

214
00:14:09.480 --> 00:14:13.240
Mm hmmmm hmmm. Let's do just
one more before we take our first break,

215
00:14:13.039 --> 00:14:20.159
can we can we address perseverance.
Perseverance that's a bit of a burning

216
00:14:20.159 --> 00:14:24.919
the midnight oil and getting up at
the same time, guilty you over here.

217
00:14:24.919 --> 00:14:28.919
Yeah, that's that's an interesting one. I think many of us,

218
00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:31.639
many of us have been through that
at some point. The ability to persevere.

219
00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:35.440
So it's a wonderful gift, whether
you call it perseverance, a determination

220
00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:39.080
or grit, not giving up,
getting through hard times, putting in the

221
00:14:39.159 --> 00:14:46.279
extra hours. I think the temptation
is sometimes that our amount of hours worked

222
00:14:46.600 --> 00:14:50.639
is sometimes the factor that we can
control the most. So if we are

223
00:14:50.679 --> 00:14:54.840
overloaded, we feel like, let
me just work more. But more often

224
00:14:54.879 --> 00:14:56.759
than not, that actually gets in
the way because we are human beings.

225
00:14:56.799 --> 00:15:01.159
We're not We're not machines and they
there is a finite number of hours that

226
00:15:01.240 --> 00:15:05.320
we can actually work at the best
of our ability before we start making mistakes

227
00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:09.519
and just pulling down well being and
so forth. And you know also too,

228
00:15:09.559 --> 00:15:13.039
I think that's when we start to
see the deterioration of relationships around us

229
00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:16.639
too, if all we're doing is
focused on realizing or working toward our ambitions

230
00:15:16.679 --> 00:15:20.519
at the expense of those relationships.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. All right,

231
00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:24.080
Well, let's grab our first break
here. I'm your host, doctor

232
00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:26.200
Release Cortes. We've got on ear
with Nikolai chen Nielsen, the director of

233
00:15:26.200 --> 00:15:31.919
transformation Services at Pecon, a workday
company, and he's also a partner at

234
00:15:31.919 --> 00:15:35.639
the Super trans Institute. He has
co author to best selling books Return on

235
00:15:35.720 --> 00:15:39.039
Ambition and Leadership at Scale. We've
been talking about some of the major concepts

236
00:15:39.039 --> 00:15:41.919
that he covers in this first book. After the break, we're going to

237
00:15:41.919 --> 00:15:46.440
talk about the importance of listening to
the voice of the employee and as it

238
00:15:46.519 --> 00:15:50.240
relates to employee engagement. Stay with
us, We'll be right back. Doctor

239
00:15:50.240 --> 00:15:56.279
Release Cortes is a management consultant specializing
in meaning and purpose. An inspirational speaker

240
00:15:56.320 --> 00:16:02.080
and author, she helps companies visioneer
for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose

241
00:16:02.159 --> 00:16:08.200
inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that
elevate fulfillment, performance, and commitment within

242
00:16:08.240 --> 00:16:12.879
the workforce. To learn more or
to invite Elise to speak to your organization,

243
00:16:14.240 --> 00:16:18.240
please visit her at Eleasecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get

244
00:16:18.279 --> 00:16:30.279
your employees working on purpose. This
is working on Purpose with doctor Elise Cortes.

245
00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:33.720
To reach our program today or open
a conversation with Alise, send an

246
00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:41.320
email to a lease Alise at Elisecortes
dot com. Now back to working on

247
00:16:41.399 --> 00:16:47.600
Purpose. Thanks for stating with us, and welcome back to working on Purpose.

248
00:16:47.679 --> 00:16:48.960
Before we get into the program,
I want to invite to check out

249
00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:52.120
a book that I got out last
November of twenty twenty. It's called Purpose

250
00:16:52.159 --> 00:16:57.000
Ignited, How Inspiring Leaders invite in
unite passion and a like cause. I

251
00:16:57.000 --> 00:17:00.519
wrote it actually to awaken readers to
their past a purpose and to transform them

252
00:17:00.519 --> 00:17:04.279
into inspirational leaders that can create a
place, a workplace where people actually want

253
00:17:04.319 --> 00:17:07.000
to come to work and do their
best. And I use the content to

254
00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:11.680
be able to work for my Widely
Inspired Leadership program as well as the Grab

255
00:17:11.720 --> 00:17:15.279
Your Gusto programs. If you're just
joined the program today. My guest is

256
00:17:15.359 --> 00:17:18.440
Nikolai chen Nielsen. He's the director
of Transformation Services at Pecon, a workday

257
00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:22.400
company, and also a partner at
the Super Trends Institute. He helps create

258
00:17:22.519 --> 00:17:26.440
human centered and future ready organizations.
I'm your host, doctor Release Quortesse,

259
00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:32.119
So for this next bit here,
I can't resist asking you this question because

260
00:17:32.119 --> 00:17:36.000
you're so uniquely situated to be able
to ask this, and we could vote

261
00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:37.480
a home show to this, I'm
sure. But you, being a partner

262
00:17:37.480 --> 00:17:41.720
at the Super trans Institute, you're
focusing on the intersection of the latest trends

263
00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:45.839
and implications on leaders and organizations.
Would love to hear a few of those

264
00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:51.359
key trends that you see relative to
people and technology emerging. Yeah, we

265
00:17:51.359 --> 00:17:55.240
could absolutely spend a whole segment talking
us about that question. A lot of

266
00:17:55.240 --> 00:17:59.680
stuff happening and it's all coming together
at the same time, I'll try to

267
00:17:59.720 --> 00:18:03.039
be a little bit sexcinct on the
key ones. I mean, one is

268
00:18:03.079 --> 00:18:06.680
you kind of avoid technology. And
I think the key difference today is that

269
00:18:07.079 --> 00:18:11.720
a sufficient number of technologies are actually
growing at an exponential rate and they're converging.

270
00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:15.640
So things like big data, things
like sensors, incentive things, even

271
00:18:15.640 --> 00:18:19.519
things like robotics of course, artificial
intelligence, they're coming to get to a

272
00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:23.079
point where they can take over a
lot of the at least a part of

273
00:18:23.119 --> 00:18:26.759
the work that humans are doing today. So there's a big shift, and

274
00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:30.680
we'll see that shift the next three
to five years. And any company that

275
00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:33.960
doesn't see themselves as a technology company
today, that's already a bit of a

276
00:18:33.000 --> 00:18:37.960
red flag. So that's one big
trend. We see trends in demographics.

277
00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:41.799
Of course, it's the most diverse
workforce the world has ever seen. You

278
00:18:41.799 --> 00:18:45.160
can count up to five generations and
a new one coming along as well,

279
00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:49.559
and they have very very different expectations
and mindsets to a broad number of topics.

280
00:18:52.119 --> 00:18:55.559
And then I would say, of
course, COVID, we can't ignore

281
00:18:55.640 --> 00:19:00.279
that because it's just showed us within
the space of weeks that work can be

282
00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:03.680
radically transformed. It's been through we've
been forced to work from home a couple

283
00:19:03.720 --> 00:19:08.680
of years now almost and we haven't
yet really defined what's coming out of it,

284
00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:12.400
but what we've seen is that it
is possible to radically blow up the

285
00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:18.480
old ways of working to some extent, which I find eternally fascinating. Of

286
00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:21.559
course, as a social scientist and
as somebody who really cares about the world

287
00:19:21.559 --> 00:19:23.440
of work and making it a place
that people can actually thrive in that have

288
00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:26.200
been very, very interested in all
of those trends. So thank you for

289
00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:32.240
that incredibly succinct explanation of kind of
what's going on in shaping the world today.

290
00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:37.160
The next thing I want to talk
about is is the importance of giving

291
00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:41.200
employees voice at work. You talk
about that as being very, very critical,

292
00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:45.680
and I'm fascinated to understand. You
have such an interesting and diverse background

293
00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:48.519
to draw from, so I'm interested
to understand one, why is that important?

294
00:19:49.720 --> 00:19:53.279
And of course what are the best
companies doing to be able to give

295
00:19:53.359 --> 00:19:56.839
voice to their employees and how they're
listening to it taking action on that.

296
00:19:57.519 --> 00:20:00.160
Yeah, I mean, when you
look at the the implications of the trend

297
00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:04.200
and what we just met and talked
about the nature of the work is becoming

298
00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:10.400
very very compartmentalized, the very specific. It's becoming. You're breaking it down

299
00:20:10.440 --> 00:20:14.839
into specific pieces, and we need, we're needing to in a much larger

300
00:20:14.839 --> 00:20:18.240
extent, learn along the way,
whether that's a marketing strategy or new product

301
00:20:18.279 --> 00:20:25.079
development or process process change. So
what that means in terms of the employee

302
00:20:25.119 --> 00:20:29.960
voice is that you need to constantly
understand and do things better. That's coming

303
00:20:29.960 --> 00:20:32.920
a little bit more bottom up,
if you will. So organizations are becoming

304
00:20:32.960 --> 00:20:36.039
flatter, and it's not just because
it's the right thing to do, but

305
00:20:36.079 --> 00:20:40.400
it's because it's the work itself has
changed. You cannot just set the direction

306
00:20:40.480 --> 00:20:42.240
of the plan and expect to stick
to it. You need to learn along

307
00:20:42.279 --> 00:20:45.160
the way, and you need the
people at the front who are doing their

308
00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:49.720
work to actually come with their own
suggestions. So employee voice, if we

309
00:20:49.759 --> 00:20:53.000
talk a little bit about that,
it's for me. It has different levels.

310
00:20:53.680 --> 00:21:00.240
One level is helping employees or understanding
what employees need first of all,

311
00:21:00.920 --> 00:21:04.119
and that's often not even asked,
if you will, and that was absolutely

312
00:21:04.200 --> 00:21:08.400
vital during COVID, just asking how
are you, how is it affecting you?

313
00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:11.200
How do you what do you need? Because if you don't, if

314
00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:17.440
you're not feeling safe, or if
you have a lot of other pressing demands

315
00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:18.839
in your life, it's very hard
to bring your whole self to work.

316
00:21:19.559 --> 00:21:22.480
I think that the second level is
then actually helping you do your job better.

317
00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:26.759
Again, it sounds simple, but
it's really just helping you improve how

318
00:21:26.799 --> 00:21:30.640
you do the work. Whether you're
a sales leader or a sales rep or

319
00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:33.279
whatever it might be. We really
want to understand we want to help you,

320
00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:36.039
right, it's not you helping us. We as a leader and the

321
00:21:36.079 --> 00:21:38.079
team actually want to enable you to
do your job better. And concretely that

322
00:21:38.079 --> 00:21:42.079
could mean things like growth opportunities,
or it could be stretch of sirens and

323
00:21:42.119 --> 00:21:47.559
so forth. And then the third
level of voices around innovation, where I

324
00:21:47.559 --> 00:21:51.079
think when you can tap into employees
on a more systematic basis, you can

325
00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:53.440
get a lot of insights about how
things could be done differently and better.

326
00:21:55.960 --> 00:21:57.359
That was the subject of last week's
conversation, by the way on here,

327
00:21:57.359 --> 00:22:02.359
and that's so interesting, so so
so. Of course, you know,

328
00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:06.599
the most obvious thing that I've certainly
heard from the clients that I'm working with

329
00:22:06.720 --> 00:22:10.599
is there's such a resistance to this
whole notion of you know, remote work,

330
00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:12.000
virtual work, but I can't see
them. I'm not sure if they're

331
00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:17.559
actually getting things done and worried about
the collaboration and the connection to the heartbeat

332
00:22:17.559 --> 00:22:22.319
of the organization. What would you
say to that particular aspect and trend?

333
00:22:22.359 --> 00:22:25.680
Yeah, I do get that question
a lot around how do I know that

334
00:22:25.720 --> 00:22:29.400
there? You know they as and
the employees that are working, And the

335
00:22:29.519 --> 00:22:33.440
question I always asked fast is how
did you know before? And just being

336
00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:36.880
able to see them is not a
good enough answer. So did you have

337
00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:41.480
progress check ins? Did you have
scorecard metrics and so forth? And the

338
00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:45.319
answer often is no. And if
it's if that's the case, then it's

339
00:22:45.400 --> 00:22:48.599
more those things to address. If
you're working remotely, and if you have

340
00:22:48.599 --> 00:22:51.640
a team dashboard, if you look
at all of the online tools in the

341
00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:56.160
cloud, you can literally put a
dashboard that everyone can see and contribute to

342
00:22:56.240 --> 00:23:00.119
and meeting notes and all that,
and that's that's the better outcome. It's

343
00:23:00.119 --> 00:23:03.119
not an input metric of do I
see you at work? As an outcome

344
00:23:03.160 --> 00:23:07.039
of are you delivering and achieving what
we set out to achieve? Ooh,

345
00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:11.160
that was worth the price of admission
right there, Nikolai. So instead of

346
00:23:11.359 --> 00:23:15.359
monitoring, can I see my employees, so therefore I think they must be

347
00:23:15.400 --> 00:23:19.000
working. Let's instead create some kind
of a visual dash where that everyone can

348
00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:22.720
see and monitor and know how they're
contributing to That's brilliant, that makes so

349
00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:26.640
much sense. Thank you. It's
I mean, I love taking it to

350
00:23:26.680 --> 00:23:30.279
the extreme because the extreme of this
future of work and you look at the

351
00:23:30.319 --> 00:23:33.599
number of gig workers and so forth, but whether it's a gig work or

352
00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:37.480
not, but the extreme is work
is being broken down into small and smaller

353
00:23:37.559 --> 00:23:42.559
units, being much more project based, and the individual employee is having no

354
00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:48.000
fixed employer, no fixed working hours, no fixed working time, no fixed

355
00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:52.279
working holidays, and even no fixed
you could say retirement age. Because what

356
00:23:52.519 --> 00:23:56.400
you are having is people coming together
for a fixed amount of time they're delivering

357
00:23:56.400 --> 00:24:02.720
something and then disbanding again. Like
that's moving things forward. And I just

358
00:24:02.839 --> 00:24:04.480
have to say thank you to Dan
Pink, who I'm a fan of.

359
00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:08.160
You know, he wrote Free Agent
Nations so many years ago, and who

360
00:24:08.200 --> 00:24:11.920
knew this would be so spought on
smack true of so many people today.

361
00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:15.960
So next I want to talk about
engagement, Nicolayte so interesting. I've seen

362
00:24:17.039 --> 00:24:19.200
that word evolve in the twenty two
years that I've been in the human capital

363
00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:25.680
industry, and it's gone from engaging
resources, which seems very passe, to

364
00:24:25.920 --> 00:24:30.079
fulfilling people. So what's the latest
development term that we work with today?

365
00:24:30.279 --> 00:24:36.200
What does it mean to engage people? I think the definition of engagement,

366
00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:38.240
I want, bringing your whole self
to work is still an important one,

367
00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:42.400
but I would say probably a couple
two big shifts, if you will.

368
00:24:42.440 --> 00:24:45.359
I mean, one is engagement as
an outcome, I think is shifting more

369
00:24:45.400 --> 00:24:49.880
towards engagement as a process. That's
a little bit back to employee voice.

370
00:24:49.880 --> 00:24:55.519
So engagement as an outcome is still
very very important, absolutely, but there

371
00:24:55.559 --> 00:24:59.839
are a lot of other outcomes that
engaging employees can also foster. It can

372
00:25:00.160 --> 00:25:03.960
help foster innovation, it can help
foster that you stay in the company longer,

373
00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:06.200
and so forth. So it's a
little bit of a broadening of the

374
00:25:06.200 --> 00:25:08.880
definition, and it's about that engaging
as a as a verb. We want

375
00:25:08.920 --> 00:25:12.119
to we want to talk with you, we want to take action on your

376
00:25:12.119 --> 00:25:15.519
feedback. We want you as an
employee to drive the change that you wish

377
00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:19.559
to see, it's a very different
ballgame than we're measuring engagement as an outcome,

378
00:25:19.599 --> 00:25:23.599
and you know that's ultimately what's going
to define our success. Mm hmm.

379
00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:29.480
I think one of the things that
that that draws or connects you and

380
00:25:29.519 --> 00:25:33.160
I together, Nicola, is that
we both have an interest in potential,

381
00:25:33.960 --> 00:25:40.599
in working toward and realizing potential,
and so I'm interested in your perspective.

382
00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:44.920
You've got a vast amount of experience
and work to draw from and companies to

383
00:25:45.039 --> 00:25:48.319
draw from. What are some of
the best practices you're seeing today that companies

384
00:25:48.359 --> 00:25:55.400
are using to increase, increase or
improve that engagement of their employees. The

385
00:25:55.440 --> 00:26:00.680
most leading edge companies on engagement.
It's it's a new data so and I

386
00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:03.960
think that it's definitely a shift away
from seeing it as a survey to seeing

387
00:26:03.960 --> 00:26:08.359
it as a new insight for the
company. Because when you have an employee

388
00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:12.920
feedback mechanism through technology to get employee
sentiments, employee voice, you know,

389
00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:18.079
employee feedback in a real time fashion. Every week employees get a certain number

390
00:26:18.119 --> 00:26:22.440
of questions, it's super easy the
algorithm can figure out who needs what questions.

391
00:26:22.839 --> 00:26:26.400
Then that becomes a real data source
for the company. And then when

392
00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:30.680
you're making decisions around like literally everything
around employee wellbeing, retention, experience,

393
00:26:30.759 --> 00:26:34.680
but also things like how can we
improve sales? What are the highest performing

394
00:26:34.720 --> 00:26:40.920
sales agents doing versus the lower performing
ones. It's a whole new insight that

395
00:26:40.920 --> 00:26:42.359
we didn't have before. So that's
what the leading edge companies are doing.

396
00:26:42.359 --> 00:26:47.799
They're embedding it into their day to
day decision making. So what is that

397
00:26:47.799 --> 00:26:49.000
then? Does that show up as
like an email or is a show up

398
00:26:49.039 --> 00:26:53.640
as something on their phone or how
do they get that invitation to give that

399
00:26:53.680 --> 00:26:56.440
feedback? Yeah, quite quite broad. It could be an email, it

400
00:26:56.480 --> 00:27:02.480
could be integrated in things like slack
on your phone other apps, but even

401
00:27:02.359 --> 00:27:07.119
in specific moments that matter, right
if you're the first three months new hire

402
00:27:07.160 --> 00:27:08.960
in the company, or if you
just get promoted. It can also be

403
00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:14.440
triggered when a significant moment that matters
happens for that employee. Mm hmm.

404
00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:18.200
I had Marcus Buckingham on my radio
show, I think it's been a couple

405
00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:19.960
of years ago, talking about his
book The Nine Lives about Work, and

406
00:27:21.079 --> 00:27:23.640
one of the things that he really
puts forward is the importance of people to

407
00:27:23.799 --> 00:27:29.319
feel their own individuality and to have
that recognized in the workplace instead of just

408
00:27:29.359 --> 00:27:30.839
being you know, a cognitive wheel
and said, this is how we do

409
00:27:32.079 --> 00:27:36.400
things at this company. And I
find and the work that I do with

410
00:27:36.519 --> 00:27:41.799
organizations is that that there there's such
an opportunity to go looking for those individualities

411
00:27:41.839 --> 00:27:45.880
and inside inside people in there so
that we can we can draw that out

412
00:27:45.960 --> 00:27:51.359
and activate that. Can you speak
at all to other best practices that you're

413
00:27:51.359 --> 00:27:56.119
seeing organizations do that that maybe do
that well? Yeah, I think the

414
00:27:56.119 --> 00:28:00.440
the individuality at a metal level is
just important because it may it's about congruency,

415
00:28:00.440 --> 00:28:06.680
It's about feeling totally at e psychological
safety as an individual at work,

416
00:28:06.920 --> 00:28:10.559
and it doesn't make sense to have
a work mask and trying to fit into

417
00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:15.000
something. I think that's kind of
the metal level, but more tactically,

418
00:28:15.759 --> 00:28:19.200
when you look at the drivers around
freedom of opinion, my manager values,

419
00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:23.880
my opinion, and of course questions
around diversity, equity and inclusion, I'm

420
00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:27.160
confident I won't be discriminated against,
I have equal opportunity and so forth.

421
00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:33.000
Those are just absolutely the right things
to do, but absolutely good for business

422
00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:37.519
as well, and it's definitely it's
becoming mainstream. I would say the vast

423
00:28:37.599 --> 00:28:42.599
majority of companies are they understand the
criticality of this trying to do something about

424
00:28:42.640 --> 00:28:48.160
it. The effectiveness I think is
still is still a little bit to be

425
00:28:48.200 --> 00:28:52.680
determined, but because it's early days, but the aspiration is definitely there,

426
00:28:52.720 --> 00:28:55.240
which I think has a bit of
a wonderful shift, a positive shift the

427
00:28:55.319 --> 00:28:59.640
last few years, I hope.
So that's certainly the world that I'm out

428
00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:03.720
to help create with alongside you,
of course and other stewards in space.

429
00:29:04.519 --> 00:29:08.440
Are there any other best practices that
you've seen that are really making a difference

430
00:29:08.440 --> 00:29:14.279
and making a dent and elevating the
experience of employees and their engagement to their

431
00:29:14.279 --> 00:29:19.440
work. One interesting one has been
the notion of moving from employee experience to

432
00:29:19.559 --> 00:29:25.759
employee life experience to understand holistically what's
going on in this person's life. And

433
00:29:26.160 --> 00:29:29.960
it definitely doesn't mean that the company
or the organization is responsible for everything that

434
00:29:29.960 --> 00:29:33.440
happens outside of work. That's not
realistic. But it does mean that the

435
00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:37.440
company or the organization tries to understand
it and takes it into consideration and helps

436
00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:41.839
the employee to the best that they
can throughout things that might be outside of

437
00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:45.720
work. And COVID was one example
when companies really leaned in, and I

438
00:29:45.759 --> 00:29:48.880
think there's a lot of there's a
lot of positive that came out of even

439
00:29:48.920 --> 00:29:52.319
all the devastation of the pandemic.
You also have a lot of very inspiring

440
00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:56.440
examples of companies that just went in
and did the right thing. They helped

441
00:29:56.559 --> 00:30:02.000
employer employees with their personal struggles and
family members and so forth, really just

442
00:30:02.039 --> 00:30:06.160
because there's the right thing to do. I also love that whole flow of

443
00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:11.000
that we've gone from work life balance
to work life I forget what the middle

444
00:30:11.160 --> 00:30:14.480
term is and now it's really work
life harmony. It's what we're what we're

445
00:30:14.920 --> 00:30:17.400
aspiring for, which makes so much
sense to me. So that I love

446
00:30:17.440 --> 00:30:21.799
that idea of the fluidity that until
you say, the life experience of the

447
00:30:21.799 --> 00:30:23.799
employee, not just the work experience. I really really like that. I

448
00:30:23.920 --> 00:30:29.640
champion that too. That's gorgeous for
our listeners and viewers. Absolutely, let's

449
00:30:29.720 --> 00:30:32.880
grab our last break. I'm at
least Cortez your host. We've gound the

450
00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:36.799
air with Nikolai chen Nielsen. He's
the director of transformation Services at Pecon,

451
00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:41.039
a work day company, and he's
also a partner at the super Trends Institute.

452
00:30:41.119 --> 00:30:44.799
He has co author to best selling
books Return An Ambition and Leadership at

453
00:30:44.799 --> 00:30:48.920
Scale. We've been talking about the
importance of giving employees voice and hearing and

454
00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:52.440
taking action on it and how that
translates to engagement. After the break,

455
00:30:52.480 --> 00:30:56.400
we're going to talk about how organizations
can create environments where ambitious people thrive.

456
00:30:56.799 --> 00:31:00.200
Stay with us, we'll be right
back. Doctor release Cortes is as a

457
00:31:00.200 --> 00:31:06.440
management consultant specializing in meaning and purpose
and inspirational speaker and author. She helps

458
00:31:06.519 --> 00:31:12.480
companies visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders
and develop purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused

459
00:31:12.519 --> 00:31:18.759
cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance,
and commitment within the workforce. To learn

460
00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:23.000
more or to invite Elise to speak
to your organization, please visit her at

461
00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:29.119
elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about
how to get your employees working on purpose.

462
00:31:36.279 --> 00:31:40.599
This is working on Purpose with doctor
Elise Cortes. To reach our program

463
00:31:40.640 --> 00:31:45.960
today or open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Alise Alise at

464
00:31:45.960 --> 00:31:53.519
elisecortes dot com. Now back to
working on Purpose. Thanks for stating with

465
00:31:53.640 --> 00:31:56.599
us, and welcome back to working
on Purpose. One other announcement before we

466
00:31:56.640 --> 00:32:00.480
get back to the program is I
want to share with you the end that

467
00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:02.160
I have been working on for the
last two years just came out at August

468
00:32:02.200 --> 00:32:06.480
of twenty twenty one. It's called
Passionately Striving and Why. And what I

469
00:32:06.519 --> 00:32:09.119
did was I scoured the world literally
and found women, twenty five women who

470
00:32:09.119 --> 00:32:14.240
would actually share their very intimate story
of how they've discovered their purpose and how

471
00:32:14.279 --> 00:32:17.079
they're now today serving from it.
So it's meant to be a lifeline and

472
00:32:17.200 --> 00:32:22.119
a provocation or an invitation for the
rest of us to come alongside. So

473
00:32:22.359 --> 00:32:23.960
I'm so proud of it, I
could bust. So that's out in Amazon

474
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:28.920
as well if you're just joining us. My guest today is Nikolai chen Nielsen.

475
00:32:28.920 --> 00:32:31.839
He's the director of Transformation Services at
Pecon, a week a workday company,

476
00:32:31.880 --> 00:32:36.279
and also a partner at the super
Trands Institute. He helps create human

477
00:32:36.319 --> 00:32:39.119
centered in future ready organizations. I'm
your host, doctor Lee's Cortes. So

478
00:32:39.240 --> 00:32:43.720
for this last segment here, Nicola, I couldn't resist. And when you

479
00:32:43.799 --> 00:32:45.759
and I had this conversation on the
phone and you talked about this being a

480
00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:51.039
topic of creating environments where ambitious people
actually thrive, I couldn't resist, right.

481
00:32:51.079 --> 00:32:54.240
I know some of our clients who'd
love to hear about this. But

482
00:32:54.319 --> 00:32:58.599
before we get into that, I
want to cover something that has become like

483
00:32:58.799 --> 00:33:04.119
regular everyday partla and that's around this
notion of the great resignation, and I

484
00:33:04.160 --> 00:33:07.240
certainly am seeing it in the work
that I'm doing with clients. It really

485
00:33:07.279 --> 00:33:12.559
is wreaking havoc on leaders and companies
trying to find additional people to bring into

486
00:33:12.559 --> 00:33:16.119
their fall the people leaving and going
elsewhere. So I'm interested in your perspective.

487
00:33:16.200 --> 00:33:21.319
You have a very unique finger on
the pulse of what's happening in terms

488
00:33:21.319 --> 00:33:23.480
of trends across the world. So
what's your perspective and what's driving the grant

489
00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:29.200
exodus and employees where are they going? Yeah, it's a big topic,

490
00:33:29.319 --> 00:33:32.640
absolutely, and for me, it's
been a topic that's been bubbling under the

491
00:33:32.720 --> 00:33:38.039
surface. We'd seen simmers of it
for the last many years, but of

492
00:33:38.079 --> 00:33:42.480
course the pandemic accelerated, so it's
not I don't For me, it's important

493
00:33:43.119 --> 00:33:45.440
to always say it's not a result
of the pandemic. It's just it's an

494
00:33:45.440 --> 00:33:51.880
acceleration because of what people have been
through and it's been bubbling under the surface

495
00:33:51.960 --> 00:33:55.880
because of a number of factors.
If we think about different needs that people

496
00:33:55.960 --> 00:34:00.440
have, we have different types of
needs, and you could you could put

497
00:34:00.440 --> 00:34:02.359
them into different levels. Of course, massive did that many many, many

498
00:34:02.400 --> 00:34:07.440
years ago. But there's an element
of truth that when you meet your lower

499
00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:09.400
level needs or your basic needs,
your foundational needs, then you actually look

500
00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:14.400
for higher level ones. You strive
for different things in life, whether that's

501
00:34:15.679 --> 00:34:19.480
making a difference in the world or
fulfilling your unique potential and so forth.

502
00:34:20.119 --> 00:34:23.360
So there has been a movement in
general around minimalism. Some people call it

503
00:34:23.679 --> 00:34:28.679
enoughism, where you feel like,
hey, you actually have enough of the

504
00:34:28.719 --> 00:34:32.559
foundational things in life and you want
more. And I think people feel that

505
00:34:32.599 --> 00:34:37.800
with sometimes with work, where instead
of working for a paycheck, you actually

506
00:34:37.800 --> 00:34:42.159
want much more from work. You
want to fulfill why you're here on earth.

507
00:34:42.760 --> 00:34:45.119
Right. Yeah, I think we
might have talked about this nickel lie.

508
00:34:45.159 --> 00:34:49.599
But I have been researching meaning and
work and it's relationship to identity for

509
00:34:49.960 --> 00:34:52.280
I guess over twenty years now,
and I found these fifteen modes of engagement

510
00:34:52.400 --> 00:34:57.320
and yeah, so there's this really
interesting whole phenomenon if you look, and

511
00:34:57.360 --> 00:35:00.199
I did map it against Massenow's hierarchy
needs in terms of height of value,

512
00:35:00.480 --> 00:35:05.960
and then also the relationship to the
person, whether they were expressing themselves or

513
00:35:06.239 --> 00:35:08.960
the work fit, et cetera.
So I'm very very intrigued with all of

514
00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:14.239
that, and so that makes me
then wonder again. You have such a

515
00:35:14.239 --> 00:35:19.320
great finger on the pulse, and
I love investigating society and people. I'm

516
00:35:19.320 --> 00:35:23.480
really interested in your perspective on how
living and working in a pandemic has changed

517
00:35:23.519 --> 00:35:27.920
what people want from work? Is
that part of what you said, the

518
00:35:28.519 --> 00:35:32.519
pandemic accelerated this sort of phenomenon,
this trend, But I'm wondering said there

519
00:35:32.599 --> 00:35:37.920
was something about that phenomenon that we've
been experiencing that has translated to what people

520
00:35:37.960 --> 00:35:44.639
want from work that's different than before. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, there

521
00:35:44.639 --> 00:35:47.119
are different trends that come together.
Like the technology today allows us to do

522
00:35:47.199 --> 00:35:51.960
things that we could not do ten
years ago, even just in a small

523
00:35:52.039 --> 00:35:54.079
space of ten years, we can
now actually work from anywhere anytime, which

524
00:35:54.079 --> 00:35:58.679
we could not do ten years ago. And of course, for many not

525
00:35:58.800 --> 00:36:04.039
all high level of income or just
general well being, it doesn't mean that

526
00:36:04.079 --> 00:36:07.000
you have to have a lot of
a lot of riches but enough that you

527
00:36:07.039 --> 00:36:09.480
actually feel like you can make a
bold decision. Perhaps that's also that definitely

528
00:36:09.519 --> 00:36:14.920
does change every decade when you look
at it. But then finally with the

529
00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:17.960
whole with with purpose and meaning,
I think it doesn't only go for employees

530
00:36:19.000 --> 00:36:22.880
but also consumers. Right there is
a shift to just more ethical consumption or

531
00:36:24.079 --> 00:36:29.480
being very cognizant about what the company
does and doesn't stand for where they source

532
00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:32.719
their products. You also see this
in some of the younger generations where this

533
00:36:32.800 --> 00:36:37.280
is a much much bigger factor factor
and purchase decisions. So I think it's

534
00:36:37.320 --> 00:36:43.000
all these things coming together where you're
you're your setting essentially a higher bar as

535
00:36:43.039 --> 00:36:46.199
an employee that you want. You're
not just there for the paycheck. Actually,

536
00:36:46.199 --> 00:36:51.320
many employees interesting, what would be
willing to go down and pay to

537
00:36:51.360 --> 00:36:55.039
do a job that's more meaningful for
them? And that's a that's a big

538
00:36:55.159 --> 00:36:59.800
that's a big shift. So what
is so gorgeous about what you just did?

539
00:36:59.840 --> 00:37:04.760
Then you probably actually scared just several
of the listeners and viewers off for

540
00:37:04.920 --> 00:37:07.119
just a second. But don't run
away, listeners and viewers. What you

541
00:37:07.159 --> 00:37:10.840
did I believe there is what you
said is that in order for it to

542
00:37:10.840 --> 00:37:15.039
be a company where people actually want
to come to work and stay. You

543
00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:16.760
kind of need to be up to
something and you got to be You've got

544
00:37:16.760 --> 00:37:21.960
to be worthy of that person's values
and their time. And that's a whole

545
00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:25.039
different thing than just hey, steady
paycheck and benefits kind of thing. That's

546
00:37:25.079 --> 00:37:30.280
a whole different bar to have to
go toward. And that's what I'm seeing

547
00:37:30.280 --> 00:37:32.480
too, Nikolai, is that as
a conscious capitalist, that's I practice that

548
00:37:32.559 --> 00:37:36.400
as well. And a lot of
my guests come on the show are talking

549
00:37:36.519 --> 00:37:42.880
very much about this notion of creating
doing business and creating companies that do allow

550
00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:46.639
people that express an ethical vantage point
in the world, that are doing something

551
00:37:46.679 --> 00:37:50.559
to help the communities, that are
doing something to help you know, clean

552
00:37:50.599 --> 00:37:52.880
the environment, et cetera. And
that if you're not doing something like that,

553
00:37:52.920 --> 00:37:55.280
a lot of people are like,
hmmm, I think I'll go elsewhere.

554
00:37:55.760 --> 00:38:00.400
Yeah. And I believe so much
in the power of consumers because at

555
00:38:00.440 --> 00:38:04.320
the end of the day, an
organization needs to make a profit, and

556
00:38:04.679 --> 00:38:07.639
a lot of the companies I work
with it's about setting strategy and improving operations

557
00:38:07.679 --> 00:38:13.280
and so forth. But the power
of the consumer is ultimate to make decisions

558
00:38:13.280 --> 00:38:16.440
make your voice heard on social media, and I think enough companies are making

559
00:38:16.480 --> 00:38:21.119
decisions around quote unquote doing the right
thing, of course because they want to

560
00:38:21.119 --> 00:38:23.159
do it, but also because they
know that there's a critical mass of consumers

561
00:38:23.239 --> 00:38:27.719
out there who actually care. There
will always be some who either don't care

562
00:38:27.840 --> 00:38:31.000
or actually are against what you do. There was a fascinating example in the

563
00:38:31.639 --> 00:38:38.280
European Soccer Cup last year where UEFA, the organizing association, said we cannot

564
00:38:38.320 --> 00:38:44.760
allow for rainbow colored stadiums or flags
because we are a non political organization.

565
00:38:45.239 --> 00:38:49.519
And the immediate response was that a
lot of sponsors of the euro Cup,

566
00:38:50.079 --> 00:38:54.360
large ones Volkswagen, Coca Cola,
they came out with rainbow colored advertisements and

567
00:38:54.400 --> 00:38:58.159
statements, and of course there were
some who are against that. I mean,

568
00:38:58.159 --> 00:39:00.760
they were very vocal on social media. These companies said, look,

569
00:39:00.760 --> 00:39:04.119
there are enough people who who believe
this is the right thing to do,

570
00:39:04.159 --> 00:39:07.119
and so do we, and we're
going to actually take a stand on values.

571
00:39:07.400 --> 00:39:08.960
Taking a stand on values, I
think is something that is coming more

572
00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:14.000
and more to the forefront. I
would agree. I had a beautiful man

573
00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:15.960
on my show of Frank Calderoni,
who's the CEO of and a plan.

574
00:39:16.079 --> 00:39:22.360
He wrote a book called Upstanding,
and it's about company character and that exact

575
00:39:22.519 --> 00:39:25.639
same point nikolays he's saying is you
have to take a stand as an organization

576
00:39:25.719 --> 00:39:30.239
on whatever your values are, not
be wishy washy in the middle kind of

577
00:39:30.239 --> 00:39:31.840
thing. Yeah, you're going to
alienate some people, but you're going to

578
00:39:31.840 --> 00:39:36.119
get the people who say, yep, boo, that's what I stand for.

579
00:39:36.599 --> 00:39:40.320
And so he was really putting forward
the importance of standing on your values

580
00:39:40.360 --> 00:39:45.119
and standing for and activating from your
values, and I think that's really critical

581
00:39:45.199 --> 00:39:49.360
to these times. Something different as
well, I think, yeah, yeah,

582
00:39:49.360 --> 00:39:52.880
I mean employee's care and consumer's care. Back to your point around what

583
00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:58.519
makes people stay in organizations. So
we serve this up in the last segment,

584
00:39:58.599 --> 00:40:00.719
Nicolaidy, you know, kind of
what's going on with employee employee voice

585
00:40:00.719 --> 00:40:05.639
and what are the best organizations doing
to improve or enchance engagement. Now,

586
00:40:05.679 --> 00:40:09.159
I'm interested to hear your perspective on
some of the more immediate things that leaders

587
00:40:09.199 --> 00:40:15.440
can do or need to address right
now in these pandemic times to address the

588
00:40:15.519 --> 00:40:19.599
desires of talent. What they need
to be doing. Yeah, A couple

589
00:40:19.599 --> 00:40:22.119
of things come to mind. I
mean one is the feedback culture. So

590
00:40:22.159 --> 00:40:24.440
we talked about employee voice, which
is at an organizational level, but I

591
00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:30.760
definitely don't want the technology. Shouldn't
be the answer. Technology as a means

592
00:40:30.800 --> 00:40:34.800
to an end, and that the
end is actually fostering more employee openness and

593
00:40:36.599 --> 00:40:39.880
feedback and at a team level,
for individual leader, it's about creating the

594
00:40:39.960 --> 00:40:45.599
space and really creating the psychological safety
for employees to feel comfortable that they can

595
00:40:45.639 --> 00:40:51.960
speak up without being reprimanded, and
also creating transparency where the leader can admit

596
00:40:52.119 --> 00:40:55.760
if things are going well and what's
not going well, And that takes a

597
00:40:55.800 --> 00:41:00.559
lot of vulnerability, but ultimately we
see a time and time again that when

598
00:41:00.559 --> 00:41:04.400
a leader can do that create the
space, employees aren't against the leader.

599
00:41:04.440 --> 00:41:06.960
They actually want to help. You
know, we're in this together. We

600
00:41:07.039 --> 00:41:12.119
collectively feel like we're not perhaps we're
not meeting out business objectives. How can

601
00:41:12.159 --> 00:41:14.920
we do things better? We want
to achieve them, we want to work

602
00:41:14.960 --> 00:41:19.599
together. What I've seen in my
work experience, Nicole, I'd love for

603
00:41:19.639 --> 00:41:22.679
you to weigh in on this is
that I've seen that when organizations say,

604
00:41:22.679 --> 00:41:23.719
well, we do want to hear
what employees have to say and what their

605
00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:25.800
experience is, and then when when
they hear it, they're like, well,

606
00:41:25.800 --> 00:41:30.920
no, that's not right. They
announce that they don't believe it because

607
00:41:30.920 --> 00:41:34.320
it doesn't align with their experience or
they just don't see it that way.

608
00:41:34.320 --> 00:41:37.599
And I think that is a result
of both generational differences in values that show

609
00:41:37.679 --> 00:41:40.719
up, and it's also just a
very you know, sort of maybe an

610
00:41:40.760 --> 00:41:45.559
isolated sort of experience of you know, the employee base from the leaders who

611
00:41:45.719 --> 00:41:51.119
actually you know, are steward in
the organization. What's your perspective or experience

612
00:41:51.159 --> 00:41:55.559
of that disconnect. Yeah, it's
not an easy transition. It can be

613
00:41:55.599 --> 00:42:00.280
a difficult transition. So if there
is a company where the culture is not

614
00:42:00.920 --> 00:42:04.519
open to feedback and it's been like
that for a long time and employees aren't

615
00:42:04.559 --> 00:42:07.719
comfortable speaking up, it's it's absolutely
not easy to change and it can take

616
00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:13.000
it's a multi year journey for some. We also see in the data that

617
00:42:13.480 --> 00:42:19.159
the more senior leaders are actually more
positive. Their sentiment is more positive in

618
00:42:19.239 --> 00:42:22.400
terms of how they think the organization
is being run than employees think it it

619
00:42:22.480 --> 00:42:25.239
is. So that's definitely a discondeck
where they say, you know, this

620
00:42:25.239 --> 00:42:30.239
doesn't align with my experience, I
very engaged and I understand the strategy and

621
00:42:30.280 --> 00:42:32.519
I can state my opinion. So
how can the employees not state that?

622
00:42:34.039 --> 00:42:38.039
But and that's often that's often the
shift that the senior leadership team at a

623
00:42:38.119 --> 00:42:43.400
really deep personal level, they need
to have a bit of a harm moment

624
00:42:43.400 --> 00:42:45.440
and say, you know, what
are we doing to cause this culture,

625
00:42:45.519 --> 00:42:51.199
this sentiment that we're hearing, and
then ultimately do we care enough to want

626
00:42:51.239 --> 00:42:54.159
to do something about it? And
the answer is I've seen many positive examples

627
00:42:54.159 --> 00:43:00.360
of let's do something, But there
are also cases where the senior there and

628
00:43:00.480 --> 00:43:04.639
me too likewise, So let's now
we're getting close to the end here.

629
00:43:05.199 --> 00:43:07.679
You know, leaders often say they
want ambitious people working for them, people

630
00:43:07.760 --> 00:43:12.440
that are up to something in life, but they may not be provided the

631
00:43:12.440 --> 00:43:15.800
opportunities that those people actually want.
And so how can organizations create environments where

632
00:43:15.840 --> 00:43:20.360
those ambitious people can really thrive they
stick around and this is their chair.

633
00:43:20.760 --> 00:43:22.519
Well, it's kind of coming back
to the full circle to the notion of

634
00:43:22.559 --> 00:43:27.159
ambition and it being very holistic.
I think the first thing is for organizations

635
00:43:27.199 --> 00:43:30.679
to open up the dialogue around what
are the ambitions of our employees and as

636
00:43:30.679 --> 00:43:36.400
a manager, fostering that discussion.
So instead of being really surprised when someone

637
00:43:36.480 --> 00:43:39.639
leaves the company or doing everything you
can to prevent this person from leaving.

638
00:43:39.679 --> 00:43:44.639
We know that people on average leave
companies every three to five years. It's

639
00:43:44.719 --> 00:43:47.199
just the way the world works.
Now, instead of having that mindset that

640
00:43:47.239 --> 00:43:50.840
you cannot leave, try to open
up the discussion. What are you,

641
00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:53.800
as an employee passionate about, what
do you try to achieve in life beyond

642
00:43:53.800 --> 00:43:57.719
what you do between nine to five, and where does it align with what

643
00:43:57.719 --> 00:44:00.320
we're trying to do as a company, and how can we actually work together

644
00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:02.280
and meet in the middle. So
I think it's creating that space for ambition.

645
00:44:02.800 --> 00:44:08.639
More broadly, that will definitely help
keep having an environment where ambitious people

646
00:44:08.679 --> 00:44:12.840
thrive. So that goes back to
what you said before about and we're not

647
00:44:12.960 --> 00:44:15.760
talking about the employee experience, from
the employee life experience that we're trying to

648
00:44:15.800 --> 00:44:21.840
address and elevate an employee ambition.
I mean, we don't assume every employee

649
00:44:21.840 --> 00:44:23.679
wants to become CEO of the company. Right they have dreams. Let's try

650
00:44:23.679 --> 00:44:28.960
to understand and let's engage with them. Matthew Kelly's the dream manager. Here

651
00:44:29.000 --> 00:44:31.280
we come. Sounds good. Well, we've done it already, Nikola,

652
00:44:31.360 --> 00:44:35.760
We've we've already gone through the whole
time on the show. Here, I

653
00:44:35.800 --> 00:44:37.159
want to give you the opportunity to
close the show as you like. You

654
00:44:37.239 --> 00:44:40.199
know, the show is listened to
by listeners and viewers across the world.

655
00:44:40.400 --> 00:44:45.599
We're all about trying to create and
advance the conversation about how to create workplaces

656
00:44:45.599 --> 00:44:47.840
where people actually want to come to
work do their best. We create inspirational

657
00:44:47.880 --> 00:44:51.320
leaders, We do business at better
in the world. What would you like

658
00:44:51.360 --> 00:44:54.719
to leave us with today? Be
bold and set a direction and inspiring direction,

659
00:44:55.159 --> 00:45:00.480
but then simultaneously learn along the way. Be very op and so look,

660
00:45:00.480 --> 00:45:02.079
we haven't figured this out. I
don't think any company has figured out

661
00:45:02.079 --> 00:45:07.000
the quote unquote future of work model. But let's try to see what works

662
00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:10.039
that listened to employees and let's learn
along the way. Beautiful Nikolai, I

663
00:45:10.039 --> 00:45:14.239
am so very very happy I found
you. Thank you for being willing to

664
00:45:14.320 --> 00:45:15.960
say accept my LinkedIn invitation when I
said, hey, I want to have

665
00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:19.760
you come on my show, And
thank you for being on and sharing your

666
00:45:19.840 --> 00:45:22.559
beautiful work and your perspective with our
listeners and viewers, just invaluable. Thank

667
00:45:22.599 --> 00:45:24.960
you. I'm so glad you reached
out. Thank you so much for the

668
00:45:24.960 --> 00:45:29.320
conversation. Absolutely more to come.
And by the way, I know you're

669
00:45:29.360 --> 00:45:31.800
working in another book, so you'll
have to come back, so absolutely right.

670
00:45:31.880 --> 00:45:34.800
Okay, So listeners and viewers,
if you want to learn more about

671
00:45:34.840 --> 00:45:38.119
Nikolai Chien Neilson Nielsen, his books
are, the work he does is just

672
00:45:38.159 --> 00:45:43.400
start by going to return on ambition
dot com. Last week if you missed

673
00:45:43.440 --> 00:45:45.239
the live show, you guys get
to be recorded a podcast. We are

674
00:45:45.280 --> 00:45:51.480
on the ear Dan McClure, system
architect and chief choreographer at Innovation Ecosystem talking

675
00:45:51.480 --> 00:45:55.960
about this this creative and necessary approach
to addressing the wicked combination of confronting organizations

676
00:45:57.000 --> 00:46:01.400
today of urgent threats and exceptional opportunities
and how to disrupt business trends he made

677
00:46:01.440 --> 00:46:06.360
cracking the code and curious problem solving
accessible for us. All next week will

678
00:46:06.400 --> 00:46:08.719
be on the air with Stephen Morris, a culture brand and business consultant,

679
00:46:08.719 --> 00:46:14.360
talking about his new book called a
Beautiful Business and Actionable Manifesto to create an

680
00:46:14.480 --> 00:46:17.280
unignorable business with love at the core. See you there, Remember that works

681
00:46:17.320 --> 00:46:22.960
at least or third of our life, so let's work on purpose. We

682
00:46:22.039 --> 00:46:25.679
hope you've enjoyed this week's program.
Be sure to tune in too, Working

683
00:46:25.719 --> 00:46:30.360
on Purpose featuring your host, doctor
Elise Cortes, each week on the Voice

684
00:46:30.400 --> 00:46:37.519
America Empowerment Channel. Together, we'll
create a world where business operates conscientiously,

685
00:46:37.159 --> 00:46:44.320
leadership inspires impassioned performance, and employees
are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning

686
00:46:44.320 --> 00:46:47.880
and purpose they crave. See you
there, Let's work on Purpose.