Optimal Care and Feeding of Your Powerful Ambition

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What's working on purpose anyway? Each
week we ponder the answer to this question.

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People ache for meaning and purpose at
work to contribute their talents passionately and

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know their lives really matter. They
crave being part of an organization that inspires

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them and helps them grow into realizing
their highest potential business can be such a

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force for good in the world,
elevating humanity. In our program, we

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provide guidance and inspiration to help usher
in this world we all want working on

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purpose. Now Here is your host, doctor Elise Cortez. Welcome back to

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the Working and Purpose Program. Thanks
for you meaning again this week. I'm

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your host, doctor Elise Cortez.
Join you live from Dallas, Texas,

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which is home based for me.
If you don't know me yet, I'm

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a management consultant specializing in meaning and
purpose, organizational local therapist, inspirational speaker,

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social scientist, and author. My
team and I help company discover and

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articulate their purpose to throw it through
their culture and operations. We work with

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forward thinking or forward reaching organizations to
develop inspirational leaders who create cultures where people

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actually want to come to work and
do their best. And we provide programs

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like the grab your gusta that enable
individual team members to discover and unleash their

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passionate purpose at work to catalyze fulfilment, engagement, and productivity. You learn

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more about us now we can work
together at at least Coorte dot com or

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Augusto dashnow dot com. With us
today is Nikolai chen Nielsen, the director

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of Transformation Services at Pecan, a
work day company, and a partner at

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the Super Trends Institute. He has
co authored two best selling books, Return

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on Ambition and Leadership at Scale.
We'll be talking about what we can learn

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about our ambition and how to best
manage it, how to listen to the

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voice of employee and impact the employee
engagement, and how organizations can create environments

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where ambitious people thrive into it.
To the day from Italy, Nikolai,

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Welcome to Working on Purpose. Thank
you great to be here. So let

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me start by telling our listeners and
viewers is how I found you. I

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was minding my own business. I
was traveling in Sacramona, California, in

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January of this year. I'm in
the airport and this book calls me from

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across the airport and return in.
Basually, how gorgeous. This thing is

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literally I'm walking through the airport,
I'm I'm just planning to stop in the

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bookstore and the thing was a beak
and it just summoned me. So that's

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how I found you. And of
course i've been I've had this on my

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shelf, So you are in organic
source Nikolai. Normally my author has come

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to me through public relations representatives who
say, hey, do you want to

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have my author on your show.
I found you organically on my own,

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so thank you for saying yes to
joining me on the show. Now.

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I'm so happy to hear your story
and that you picked it up. And

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as you mentioned earlier, you read
you read the book, which I'm very

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happy about. You get it.
I do that. I sort of have

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this habit of bringing these things cover
to cover. So so let's open this

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show if we can. I think
it's really interesting that the idea of addressing

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this motion of ambition, So the
word itself, I'm very aware smackstfically for

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people, positively or negatively. So
let's start with how you define ambition?

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Yeah, absolutely, it's it's It
was really one of the first questions my

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co author and I we looked at
because, as you mentioned, different cultures,

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different people define ambition very differently,
and we felt like none of them

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actually really hit the mark. And
as we were looking into it as part

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of our research, we made a
slightly different ambition of definition, which we

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think is quite ambitious. So we
define it as a future state which is

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different from today, challenging to get
to, personally meaningful and one which you

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have a strong yearning and drive to
get to. Right. So, this

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notion that there's a future out there
that you really want to get to.

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It's not easy to get to,
but you want, you're driven to do.

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So what I love about that,
Nikolai, of course, is there's

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just such I love the energy behind
that, I love the passion behind let

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love the intensity behind that, and
I just I am so aware that you

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know, when you think about what
can you do with your one precious life,

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ambition is such a powerful resource,
right, So love that you have

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taken a whole book to treat it
and how we can actually productively steward it.

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That's also really important. So you
said in our introductor conversation that ambition

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has been a big part of your
life, how so, yeah, it

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definitely has, as far back as
I can remember, I've always just wanted

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to do something out of the ordinary, even as a child. At that

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time, I wanted to be a
professional soccer player. And this is at

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you know, age four and five, and I guess at that time you

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don't really know better than just what's
what's your dream? And my dream was

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to be the world's best soccer player. And I watched the World Cup and

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you see all the people on TV, and that was just what I wanted

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to do. And even throughout my
teens, I was still going for that

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ambition. I was training every day
after high school, so, you know,

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living very much not a normal life, but simultaneously focusing on getting good

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grades and having a social life and
kind of wanting it all at the same

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time. And that's continued ever since
and listeners and viewers, I don't even

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know how how many times the word
soccer or football is sprinkled in the book.

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But it's fantastic now I know,
I know, I better understand why.

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Okay, So then the other thing
that's really awesome about what you do

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in the book, you know,
because it's this notion you say it right

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in the beginning, Nikolai about this
notion of ambition is such an important resource

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in our lives, and it needs
to be stewarded and handled well in order

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for us to have that optimal return
on ambition. So what I appreciate too,

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is you render that critical formula of
a healthy balance between achievement, growth

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and well being. And so you've
been studying the effects of ambition and people

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put forth great efforts in service of
their ambition, and you've noticed that that

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oftentimes that's at the expense of their
health and their relationships. Tell us more

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about that. Yeah, the title
of return on ambition is a little bit

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of a provocation because you have it
in business, return on assets, return

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on investment, and so forth.
And when you think about ambitious people,

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their efforts, their time, their
resources that they put into their ambitions often

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the biggest investment that they are making
in their life. They're so driven to

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get there, and often it's a
little bit it's very subconscious, and it's

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not really measured in a systematic way, And of course it's not going to

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be a perfect measurement for what your
return and ambition is. But we tried

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to do our best to actually make
one and what we found you mentioned those

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three elements of achievement, growth,
and well being. We find that people

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who are successful, fulfilled over time, and who would say they have a

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high return on their ambition, they
balanced these three elements of achievement, growth,

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and well being, and any imbalances
that they might have are the result

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of a very deliberate choice that they
took, and it's short term in nature.

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Doesn't work to have a balance in
one of them over time because it'll

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pull down the other two. So
the almost obvious one is well being.

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If you're nearing burnout or if you're
just working too much, it's going to

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pull down your levels of achievement over
time is going to pull down a level

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of growth. But it works the
other way too. We have had a

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lot of cases where people act get
burned out because they feel like they're not

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growing, They feel bored, they
feel like they've stagnated. And the same

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goes for achievement. If you're not
achieving, you definitely feel like you're not

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doing what you're meant to be doing
in life. Yeah, and I also

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appreciate that you also address specifically in
the book that you've seen people where when

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they pursue their ambitions, so obviously
it's it is sometimes greatly at the expense

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of their relationships or their health and
right, and I can I can probably

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say in some ways I'm guilty of
that. And so part of the reason

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I probably picked up your book it
called me, is because I do consider

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myself an ambitious person, as we
spoke about, and there's so much more

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I want to do. And what
I also appreciate about your book is I

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love that you've created, as you
say, a democratic coaching sort of mechanism

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to be able to offer anyone the
coaching that you you've created in the book,

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and you're teaching us how to be
able to steward that journey, which

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is just brilliant. I really want
to call out and thank you for that.

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It's gorgeous. Yeah, it's thank
you for that, and it's it's

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very much. It was really fulfilling
to write the book because it was part

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of my personal journey for many years. And we looked at ambition for more

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than six years as a research topic, and we found that the vast majority

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of working professionals across any industry,
whether that's the arts, the sports,

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music, entrepreneurship, and so forth, would say they're ambitious, but they

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often struggle. So it's a huge
gap, and that stewardship of this valuable

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resource is ultimately what's what's needed to
make humanity a better place. I agree,

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And you know where I've kind of
come from, Nikolai is I love

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your word. You know, provocation
that your book is provoking. That's what

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I stand to do as well,
because I'm really out to awaken people to

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their passionate purpose and then do something
with it, because the world needs that,

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and your life is often so much
more fulfilling when you do reach for

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that. So I appreciate the recipe
that you've given us to be able to

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help better manage that. And then
further you talk about I appreciate too this

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helps us really get more granular on
the matter, because our mission sounds like

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just just this big broad banner to
really help break it down for us.

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And yet you talk about there are
four premises of ambition. Will you address

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each one of those? Yeah,
Because ambition is very it's very personal,

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and I think one of the gaps
is when we try to pursue something which

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is an impersonal definition of ambition.
So one of the first steps we do

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in the book is to help people
define a little bit more clearly what their

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ambition is. And we have four
premises around specificity or is it is it

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specific or is it broad? Number
one? Is it unique or is it

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has it been done before? Is
it relatively big or small from where you

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are today and your current skills?
And then is it one of many priorities

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or is it the literally the one
thing that's on your mind during all of

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your waking and sleeping hours. And
we find that people actually answer it very

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differently, and there is there is
no better or worse. One example was

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just Into Arderne, who was the
youngest female head of State New Zealand I

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think at age thirty seven. You're
incredible story. But she was very targeted.

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You know, she was always interested
in politics. She joined the Youth

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Party early on, became a member
of Parliament and then head of States.

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It was a it was a quite
let's say, narrow focus in terms of

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what she wanted to do, and
she knew she wanted to do that.

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That's how she felt she could give
back most while someone like Trevor Noah,

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he said he felt like dreams would
limit him and he never reading that that

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was amazing. Yeah, and it's
it's it's incredible to see both of their

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paths to where they are today.
But just having done the paths so differently,

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I love also, by the way, the stories they really helped give

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us access to the concepts that you
were describing. That just really makes it

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work. So thank you for that
as well. And I'm a big fan

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of both of those people that you
just just mentioned, so gave him more

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access to them as well. Good
good, all right, So next one

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I want to cover. It was
really quite interesting, Nikolai that you talk

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about seven friends and these of ambition, and I'd like to talk about each

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one of them in turn. And
I did identify which ones were mine,

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by the way, So would would
you take us through a tour of them?

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Please? Yes? Absolutely. You
mentioned the bring you having stories in

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the book and so forth, and
we identified seven frenemies with the same spirit

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of wanting to make reel what people
actually feel with their ambitions, and what

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they often feel is this dual pulling
of things that help them. That's a

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friend of ambition, but at the
same time sometimes holds them back and can

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become an enemy of ambition. And
that's why we coined the term phrenemy,

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and we tried to bring them to
life by giving them a character. So

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the seven frenemies are things like competitiveness, things like perseverance, a strong desire,

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a strong independence, boldness, flexibility, and convention. And they're all

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wonderful traits. If you're competitive,
that's great, it'll help you get ahead,

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you know, relatively where you are
versus others and so forth. But

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that can also have a bit of
a dark side, and the same goes

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for the other ones too. Well, let's talk about that just for a

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second year. For example, let's
I'll just you know, I'll be a

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candidate and forth right. I recognize
myself heartily in independence. So it could

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you contrast for the listeners and viewers
the friend's side and the enemy side of

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independence. Yeah, so independence on
the friend's side is the ability to get

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things done by yourself, going a
bit solo and not having to rely on

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others. Typically you're very much of
a self starter and you're very much able

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to come through hard times even if
you don't know exactly what to do.

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You have a bit of a mindset
like I'll figure it out, I can

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do this. I trust myself the
enemy side is when you fail to bring

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others on board. And that can
either mean that the others actually don't know

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what you're doing if you're an organization, are not fully aligned to it,

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or you don't get their input.
But certainly also it can hold you back

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because you don't learn from others.
And we had a fantastic story from Sanford

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Biggers, who's an amazing artist based
out of New York, and he was

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saying he had this independence frenemy,
and he had this idea that every piece

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of work that came out of his
workshop had to have his hand, his

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breaststroke on it, when all the
other peers are setting up studios with lots

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of people working with them, and
he felt at one time that he was

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just holding him back because a he
wasn't able to meet demand of his art,

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but b he actually wasn't learning from
other people that he could have been

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working with. Yeah. So the
other brilliant thing that you do in the

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book is then you help us,
You give us a root, cause where

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does the stuff come from? And
I recognized heartily that you said one of

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the things one of the ways that
we develop independence as a friend of me

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is that we found ourselves doing group
projects maybe in school early on, and

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we were the only ones doing the
work. Everybody else kind of slacked.

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And I recognize that in myself and
my daughter who's eighteen, has the same

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total, same thing going on.
So I also appreciate that you distinguish their

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root causes and where the stuff comes
from. That helps people understand much more

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about themselves when you do that.
Yeah, because if freenemies have been formed

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since early childhood the part of us. So the answer is not to get

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rid of them. To some extent, you'll never really get rid of your

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f enemies, but it's about becoming
aware. So you're managing them and they're

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not managing you. M let's do
just one more before we take our first

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break, can we can we address
perseverance. Perseverance that's a bit of a

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burning the midnight oil and at the
same time guilty you over here. Yeah,

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that's that's an interesting one. I
think many of us, many of

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us have been through that at some
point. The ability to persevere. So

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it's a wonderful gift, whether you
call it perseverance or determination or grit,

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not giving up getting through hard times, putting in the extra hours. I

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think the temptation is sometimes that our
amount of hours worked is sometimes the factor

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that we can control the most.
So if we are overloaded, we feel

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like, let me just work more. But more often than not, that

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actually gets in the way because we
are human beings. We're not we're not

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machines and they there is a finite
number of ours that we can actually work

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at the best of our ability before
we start making mistakes and just pulling down

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well being and so forth. And
you know also too, I think that's

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when we start to see the deterioration
of relationships around us too, if all

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we're doing is focused on realizing our
working toward our ambitions at the expense of

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those relationships. Yeah, yeah,
absolutely. All right, well, let's

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grab our first break here. I'm
your host, doctor Elis Cortez. We've

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got on here with Nikolai chen Nielsen, the director of Transformation Services at Pecan,

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a week a workday company, and
he's also a partner at the Super

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Trends Institute. He has co authored
two best selling books, Return an Ambition

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and Leadership at Scale. We've been
talking about some of the major concepts that

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he covers in this first book.
After the break, We're going to talk

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about the importance of listening to the
voice of the employee and as it relates

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to employee engagement. Stay with us. We'll be right back. Doctor Release

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Cortez is a management consultant specializing in
meaning and purpose and inspirational speaker and author.

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She helps companies visioneer for greater purpose
among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired leadership

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and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and commitment within the workforce.

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To learn more or to invite a
lease to speak to your organization,

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please visit her at Elise Cortez dot
com. Let's talk about how to get

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your employees working on purpose. This
is Working on Purpose with doctor Elise Cortez.

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To reach our program today or open
a conversation with Elise, send an

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email to Elise ali Se at Elise
Cortez dot com. Now back to working

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on Purpose. Thanks for staying with
us, and welcome back to working on

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Purpose. Before we get into the
program, I want to invite to check

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out a book that I got out
last November of twenty twenty. It's called

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Purpose Ignited. How Inspiring Leaders invite, unite passion, and elite cause I

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wrote it actually to awakened readers to
their past a purpose and to transform them

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into inspirational leaders that can create a
place, a workplace where people actually want

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to come to work and do their
best. And I use the content to

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be able to work for my bidally
inspired leadership program as well as to grab

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your Gusto programs if you're just joined
the program today. My guest is Nikolai

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chen Nielsen. He's the director of
Transformation Services at Pekan, a workday company,

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and also a partner at the Super
Trends Institute. He helps create human

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centered and future ready organizations. I'm
your host, doctor Eli's Quartesse. So

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for this next bit here, I
can't resist asking you this question because you're

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so uniquely situated to be able to
ask this, and we could vote a

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home show to this, I'm sure. But you, being a partner at

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the Super Trends Institute, you're focusing
on the intersection of the latest trends and

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replications on leaders and organizations. Would
love to hear a few of those key

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trends that you see relative to people
in technology emerging. Yeah, we could

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absolutely spend a whole segment talking with
us about that. Question, and then

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a lot of stuff happening and it's
all coming together at the same time.

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I'll try to be a little bit
sextinc on the key ones. I mean,

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one is you can't avoid technology.
And I think the key difference today

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is that a sufficient number of technologies
are actually growing at an exponential rate and

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they're converging, So things like big
data, things like sensors, internetive things,

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even things like robotics of course,
artificial intelligence, they're coming together to

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a point where they can take over
a lot of the at least a part

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of the work that humans are doing
today. So there's a big shift and

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we'll see that shift the next three
to five years. And any company that

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doesn't see themselves as a technology company
today, that's that's already a bit of

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a red flag. So that's one
big trend we see trends and demographics.

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Of course, it's the most diverse
workforce the world has ever seen. You

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can count up to five generations and
a new one coming along as well,

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and they have very very different expectations
and mindsets to a broad number of topics.

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And then I would say, of
of course, COVID, we can't

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we can't ignore that, because it's
just showed us within the space of weeks

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that work can be radically transformed.
It's been through we've been forced to work

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from home a couple of years now
almost, and we haven't yet really defined

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what's coming out of it, but
what we've seen is that it is possible

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to radically blow up the old ways
of working to some extent, which I

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find eternally fascinating. Of course,
as a social scientist and as somebody who

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really cares about the world of work
and making it a place that people can

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actually thrive in. That've been very, very interested in all of those trends.

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So thank you for that incredibly succinct
explanation of kind of what's going on

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and shaping the world today. The
next thing I want to talk about is

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is the importance of giving employees voice
at work. You talk about that as

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being very, very critical, and
I'm fascinated to understand. You have such

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an interesting and diverse background to draw
from, so I'm interested to understand one,

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why is that important? And of
course what are the best companies doing

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to be able to give voice to
their employees and how they're listening to it

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taking action on that. Yeah,
I mean when you look at the the

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implication of the trends and what we
just meant talked about, the nature of

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the work is becoming very very compartmentalized, the very specific. It's becoming.

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You're breaking it down into specific pieces, and we need, we're needing to

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in a much larger extent, learn
along the way, whether that's a marketing

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strategy or new product development or process
process change. So what that means in

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terms of the employee voices that you
need to constantly understand and do things better.

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That's coming a little bit more bottom
up, if you will. So

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organizations are becoming flatter, and it's
not just because it's the right thing to

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do, but it's because it's the
work itself has changed. You cannot just

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set the direction of the plan and
expect to stick to it. You need

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to learn along the way, and
you need the people at the front who

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are doing their work to actually come
with their own suggestions. So employee voice,

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if we talk a little bit about
that, it's for me. It

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has it has different levels. One
level is helping employees or understanding what employees

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need first of all, and that's
often not even asked, if you will,

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and that was absolutely vital during COVID, just asking how are you,

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how is it affecting you, how
do you need? What do you need?

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Because if you don't, if you're
not feeling safe, or if you

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have a lot of other pressing demands
in your life, it's very hard to

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bring your whole self to work.
I think that the second level is then

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actually helping you do your job better. Again, it sounds simple, but

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it's really just helping you improve improve
how you do the work. Whether you're

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a sales leader or a sales rep
or or whatever it might be. We

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really want to understand we want to
help you, right, it's not you

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helping us, We as a leader
and the team actually want to enable you

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to do your job better. And
concretely that could mean things like growth opportunities,

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or it could be stretch of siance
and so forth. And then the

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third level of voices around innovation,
where I think when you can tap into

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employees on a more systematic basis,
you can get a lot of insights about

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how things could be done differently and
better. That is the subject of last

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week's conversation. By the way,
on your that's so interesting, so so

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so. Of course, you know, the most obvious thing that I've certainly

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heard from the clients that I'm working
with is there's such a resistance to this

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whole notion of you know, remote
work, virtual work is what I can't

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see them, I'm not sure if
they're actually getting things done and worried,

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worried about the collaboration and the connection
to the heartbeat of the organization. What

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would you say to that particular aspect? And Trent, Yeah, I do

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get that question a lot around how
do I know that there? You know

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they as and the employees that are
working, And the question I always asked

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Bass is how did you know before? And you're just being able to see

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them is not a good enough answer. So did you have progress check ins?

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Did you have score score card metrics
and so forth? And the answer

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often is no. And if it's
if that's the case, then it's more

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those things to address. If you're
working remotely, and if you have a

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team dashboard, if you look at
all of the online tools in the cloud,

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you can literally put a dashboard that
everyone can see and contribute to and

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meeting notes and all that, and
that's that's the better outcome, not an

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input metric of do I see you
at work? As an outcome of are

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you delivering and achieving what we set
out to achieve? Oh that was worth

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the price of admission right there,
Nikolai. So instead of monitoring, can

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I see my employees? So therefore
I think they must be working. Let's

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instead create some kind of a visual
dash where everyone can see and monitor and

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know how they're contributing to That's brilliant, that makes so much sense. Thank

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you. It's I mean, I
love taking it to the extreme because the

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extreme of this future of work and
you look at the number of gig workers

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and so forth, the way that's
a gig work or not. But the

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extreme is work is being broken down
into small and smaller units, being much

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more project based, and the individual
employee is having no fixed employer, no

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fixed working hours, no fixed working
time, no fixed working holidays, and

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even no fixed you could say retirement
age, because what you are having is

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people coming together for a fixed amount
of time they're delivering something and then disbanding

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again. Like that's that's moving things
forward. And I just have to say

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thank you to Dan Pink, who
I'm a fan of. You know,

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he wrote Free Agent Nations. So
many years ago, and who knew this

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would be so spot on smack true
of so many people today. So so

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next I want to talk about engagement, Nikola. It's so interesting. I've

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seen that word evolve in the twenty
two years that I've been in the human

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capital industry, and it's gone from
engaging resources, which seems very passe,

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to fulfilling people. So what's the
latest development term that we work with today?

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What does it mean to engage people? Well, I think the definition

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of engagement I'm not bringing your whole
self to work, is still an important

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one, but I would say probably
a couple two big shifts, if you

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will. I mean one is engagement
as an outcome, I think is shifting

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more towards engagement as a process.
That's a little bit back to employee voice.

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So engagement as an outcome is still
very very important, absolutely, but

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there are a lot of other outcomes
that engaging employees can also foster. It

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can help foster innovation, it can
help foster that you stay in the company

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longer, and so forth. So
it's a little bit of a broadening of

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the definition, and it's about that
engaging as a as a verb, right,

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we want to we want to talk
with you, we want to take

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action on your feedback. We want
you as an employee to drive the change

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that you wish to see. It's
a very different ball game than we'll measuring

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engagement as an outcome, and you
know that's ultimately what's going to define out

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a success M. I think one
of the things that that that draws or

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connects you and I together, Nikolai, is that we both have an interest

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in potential, in working toward and
realizing potential, and so I'm interested in

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your perspective. We've got a vast
amount of experience and work to draw from

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and companies to draw from. What
are some of the best practices you're seeing

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today that companies are using to increase, increase, or improve that engagement of

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their employees. MM the most leading
edge companies on engagement. It's it's a

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new data and I think that it's
definitely a shift away from seeing it as

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a survey to seeing it as a
new insight for the company. Because when

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you have an employee feedback mechanism through
technology to get employee sentiments, employee voice,

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employee feedback in a real time fashion. Every week, employees get a

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certain number of questions. That's super
easy. The algorithm can figure out who

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needs what questions. Then that becomes
a real data source for the company.

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And then when you're making decisions around
like literally everything around employee well being,

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retention, experience, but also things
like how can we improve sales, what

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are the highest performing sales agents doing
versus the lower performing lens It's it's a

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whole new insight that we didn't have
before. So that's what the leading edge

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companies are doing. They're embedding it
into their day to day decision making.

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So what is that that Does that
show up as like an email or is

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it show up as something on their
phone or how do they get that invitation

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to give that feedback? Yeah,
quite quite broad. It could be an

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email, it could be integrated in
things like slack on your phone other apps.

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But even in specific moments that matter, right if you're the first three

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months you hire in the in the
company, or if you just get promoted.

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It can also be triggered when a
significant moment that matters happens for that

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employee. I had Marcus Buckingham on
my radio show I think it's spent a

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couple of years ago talking about his
book The Nine Lives about Work, and

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one of the things that he really
puts forward is the importance of people to

408
00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:29.279
feel their own individuality and to have
that recognized in the workplace instead of just

409
00:27:29.319 --> 00:27:30.440
being, you know, a cog
on the wheel. Is this is how

410
00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:34.880
we do things at this company.
And I find that and when the work

411
00:27:34.960 --> 00:27:40.720
that I do with organizations is that
that there there's such an opportunity to go

412
00:27:40.839 --> 00:27:45.839
looking for those individualities and inside inside
people in there so that we can we

413
00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:49.359
can draw that out and activate that. Can you speak at all to other

414
00:27:49.400 --> 00:27:53.680
best practices that you're seeing organizations do
that? Maybe do that well? Yeah,

415
00:27:53.720 --> 00:27:59.960
I think the individuality at a meta
level is just important because it may

416
00:28:00.359 --> 00:28:04.839
it's about congruency, It's about feeling
totally at ease psychological safety as an individual

417
00:28:06.079 --> 00:28:10.000
at work, and it doesn't make
sense to have a work mask and trying

418
00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:12.240
to fit into something. I think
that that's kind of the metal level,

419
00:28:12.319 --> 00:28:18.519
but more more tactically, when you
look at the drivers around freedom of opinion,

420
00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:22.640
my manager values my opinion, and
of course questions around diversity, equity

421
00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:26.559
and inclusion, I'm confident I won't
be discriminated against. I have equal opportunity

422
00:28:26.599 --> 00:28:30.559
and so forth. Those are just
absolutely the right things to do, but

423
00:28:30.759 --> 00:28:36.640
absolutely good for business as well,
and that's it's definitely it's becoming mainstream.

424
00:28:36.680 --> 00:28:41.759
I would say the vast majority of
companies are they understand the criticality of this

425
00:28:41.599 --> 00:28:45.240
trying to do something about it.
The effectiveness, I think is still is

426
00:28:45.279 --> 00:28:49.279
still a little bit to be determined, but because it's early days, but

427
00:28:49.319 --> 00:28:53.400
the aspiration is definitely there, which
I think has a bit a wonderful shift,

428
00:28:53.440 --> 00:28:57.680
a positive shift the last few years, I hope. So that's certainly

429
00:28:57.720 --> 00:29:00.880
the world that I'm out to help
create, alongside you, of course and

430
00:29:02.279 --> 00:29:07.759
others other stewards in space. Are
there any other best practices that you've seen

431
00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:11.279
that are really making a difference and
making a tent and in elevating the experience

432
00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:18.240
of employees and their engagement to their
work. One interesting one has been the

433
00:29:18.279 --> 00:29:23.400
notion of moving from employee experience to
employee life experience to understand holistically what's going

434
00:29:23.440 --> 00:29:26.680
on in this person's life. And
it definitely doesn't mean that the company of

435
00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:32.000
the organization is responsible for everything that
happens outside of work. That's not realistic,

436
00:29:32.519 --> 00:29:34.359
but it does mean that the company
or the organization tries to understand it

437
00:29:34.400 --> 00:29:38.200
and takes it into consideration and helps
the employee to the best that they can

438
00:29:40.119 --> 00:29:42.720
throughout things that might be outside of
work. And COVID was one example when

439
00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:47.000
companies really leaned in. And I
think there's a lot of there's a lot

440
00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:51.279
of positive that came out of even
all the devastation of the pandemic. You

441
00:29:51.319 --> 00:29:55.000
also have a lot of very inspiring
examples of companies that just went in and

442
00:29:55.000 --> 00:30:00.480
did the right thing. They helped
employer employees with their personal struggles and family

443
00:30:00.519 --> 00:30:03.119
members and so forth, really just
because there's the right thing to do.

444
00:30:03.359 --> 00:30:08.160
I also love that whole flow of
that we've gone from work life balance to

445
00:30:08.480 --> 00:30:11.640
work life I forget with the middle's
terms, and now it's really work life

446
00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:15.000
harmony. It's what we're what we're
what we're aspiring for, which makes so

447
00:30:15.079 --> 00:30:18.440
much sense to me. So that
I love that idea of the fluidity that

448
00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:22.440
when you say the life experience of
the employee, not just the work experience.

449
00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:26.839
I really really like that. I
champion that too. That's gorgeous for

450
00:30:26.839 --> 00:30:30.359
our listeners and viewers. Absolutely,
let's grab our last break. I'm at

451
00:30:30.400 --> 00:30:34.160
least Cortez your host without the Air
with Nikolai chen Nielsen. He's the director

452
00:30:34.200 --> 00:30:38.400
of Transformation Services at Pecan, a
workday company, and he's also at partner

453
00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:41.759
at the Super Trends Institute. He
has co authored two best selling books,

454
00:30:41.880 --> 00:30:47.039
Return and Ambition and Leadership at Scale. We've been talking about the importance of

455
00:30:47.079 --> 00:30:49.960
giving employees voice and hearing and taking
action on it and how that translates to

456
00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:53.400
engagement. After the break, we're
going to talk about how organizations can create

457
00:30:53.480 --> 00:30:57.079
environments where ambitious people thrive. Stay
with us, We'll be right back.

458
00:30:57.640 --> 00:31:04.039
Doctor release Cortez is a management consultant
specializing in meaning and purpose and inspirational speaker

459
00:31:04.039 --> 00:31:10.839
and author. She helps companies visioneer
for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose

460
00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:17.960
inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that
elevate fulfillment, performance, and commitment within

461
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:21.880
the workforce. To learn more or
to invite a lease to speak to your

462
00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:26.680
organization, please visit her at Elise
Cortez dot com. Let's talk about how

463
00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:37.039
to get your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose with doctor

464
00:31:37.079 --> 00:31:41.680
Elise Cortez. To reach our program
today or open a conversation with Elise,

465
00:31:42.039 --> 00:31:49.279
send an email to Elise ali se
at Elise Cortez dot com. Now back

466
00:31:49.319 --> 00:31:55.359
to Working on Purpose. Thanks for
sting with us, and welcome back to

467
00:31:55.400 --> 00:31:57.480
Working on Purpose. One other announcement
before we get back to the program is

468
00:31:57.519 --> 00:32:00.279
I want to share with you that
the volunte that I've been working on for

469
00:32:00.319 --> 00:32:04.359
the last two years just came out
in August of twenty twenty one. It's

470
00:32:04.400 --> 00:32:07.880
called Passionately Striving and Why. And
what I did was I scoured the world

471
00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:10.960
literally and found women, twenty five
women who would actually share their very intimate

472
00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:15.680
story of how they've discovered their purpose
and how they're now today serving from it.

473
00:32:15.960 --> 00:32:20.279
So it's meant to be a lifeline
and a provocation or invitation for the

474
00:32:20.319 --> 00:32:22.480
rest of us to come alongside.
So I'm so proud of it i could

475
00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:25.880
bust. So that's out an Amazon
as well if you're just joining us.

476
00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:30.759
My guest today is Nikolai chen Nielsen. He's the director of Transformation Services at

477
00:32:30.759 --> 00:32:34.119
Pecan, a week a workday company, and also a partner at the Super

478
00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:37.839
Trends Institute. He helps create human
centered in future ready organizations under host doctor

479
00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:43.440
Lee's Cortez. So for this last
segment, here Nikolai. I couldn't resist.

480
00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:45.680
And when you and I had this
conversation on the phone and you talked

481
00:32:45.720 --> 00:32:49.960
about this being a topic of creating
environments where ambitious people actually thrive, I

482
00:32:50.039 --> 00:32:53.000
couldn't resist, right. I know
some of our clients who'd love to hear

483
00:32:53.000 --> 00:32:57.720
about this. But before we get
into that, I want to cover something

484
00:32:57.759 --> 00:33:00.880
that has become like regular everyday parlor, and that's around this notion of the

485
00:33:00.920 --> 00:33:06.200
great resignation, and I certainly am
seeing it in the work that I'm doing

486
00:33:06.279 --> 00:33:10.839
clients. It really is riaking habit
on leaders and companies trying to find additional

487
00:33:10.839 --> 00:33:14.920
people to bring into their fold,
the people leaving and going elsewhere. So

488
00:33:15.039 --> 00:33:17.599
I'm interested in your perspective. You
have a very unique, you know,

489
00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:22.440
finger on the pulse of what's happening
in terms of trends across the world.

490
00:33:22.440 --> 00:33:25.400
So what's your perspective on what's driving
the grant exodus and employees where are they

491
00:33:25.400 --> 00:33:31.000
going? Yeah, it's a big
topic, absolutely, and for me,

492
00:33:31.039 --> 00:33:35.519
it's been a topic that's been bubbling
under the surface. We've seen simmers of

493
00:33:35.559 --> 00:33:39.480
it for the last many years,
but of course the pandemic accelerated, so

494
00:33:39.519 --> 00:33:45.000
it's not I don't think it's important
to always say it's not a result of

495
00:33:45.039 --> 00:33:49.000
the pandemic. It's just an it's
an acceleration because of what people have been

496
00:33:49.000 --> 00:33:52.799
through, and it's been bubbling under
the surface because of a number of factors.

497
00:33:52.839 --> 00:33:58.799
If we think about different needs that
people have, we have different types

498
00:33:58.839 --> 00:34:00.799
of needs, and you could you
could put them into different levels. Of

499
00:34:00.880 --> 00:34:04.680
course, massive did that many many, many years ago, But there's an

500
00:34:04.680 --> 00:34:07.760
element of truth that when you meet
your lower level needs or your basic needs,

501
00:34:07.760 --> 00:34:10.840
your foundational needs, then you actually
look for higher level ones. You

502
00:34:10.880 --> 00:34:16.000
strive for different things in life,
whether that's making a difference in the world,

503
00:34:16.119 --> 00:34:20.840
or fulfilling your unique potential and so
forth. So there has been a

504
00:34:20.920 --> 00:34:24.519
movement in general around minimalism. Some
people call it enoughi ism, where you

505
00:34:24.519 --> 00:34:30.320
feel like, hey, you actually
have enough of the foundational things in life

506
00:34:30.920 --> 00:34:34.599
and you want more. And I
think people feel that with sometimes with work,

507
00:34:34.719 --> 00:34:37.719
where instead of working for a paycheck, you actually want much more from

508
00:34:37.719 --> 00:34:42.920
work. You want you want to
fulfill why you're here on earth. Right.

509
00:34:43.559 --> 00:34:45.239
Yeah, I think we might have
talked about this nickel lie, But

510
00:34:45.320 --> 00:34:50.320
I have been researching meaning and work
and its relationship to identity for I guess

511
00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:53.719
over twenty years now and I found
these fifteen modes of engagement and yeah,

512
00:34:53.760 --> 00:34:58.719
so there's this really interesting whole phenomenon, and I did map it against Masslow's

513
00:34:58.760 --> 00:35:02.320
hierarchy needs in terms of height of
value and then also the relationship to the

514
00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:07.519
person, whether they were expressing themselves
the work fit or etc. So I'm

515
00:35:07.599 --> 00:35:10.960
very very intrigued with all of that, And so that makes me then wonder

516
00:35:12.760 --> 00:35:15.360
again, you have such a great
finger on the pulse, and I love

517
00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:22.960
investigating society and people. I'm really
interested in your perspective on how living and

518
00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:25.239
working in a pandemic has changed what
people want from work? Is that part

519
00:35:25.280 --> 00:35:30.199
of what you said? You know, the pandemic accelerated this sort of phenomenon,

520
00:35:30.280 --> 00:35:35.119
this trend, But I'm wondering you
said there was something about that phenomenon

521
00:35:35.239 --> 00:35:39.320
that we've been experiencing that has translated
to what people want from work that's different

522
00:35:39.360 --> 00:35:45.960
than before. Yeah. Yeah,
absolutely, the different trends that come together,

523
00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:49.400
like the technology today allows us to
do things that we could not do

524
00:35:49.519 --> 00:35:52.039
ten years ago, even just in
this small space of ten years, we

525
00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:54.760
can now actually work from anywhere any
time, which we could not do ten

526
00:35:54.800 --> 00:36:01.400
years ago. And of course for
many not all high level of income or

527
00:36:01.440 --> 00:36:04.800
just general well being. It doesn't
mean that you have to have a lot

528
00:36:04.840 --> 00:36:07.800
of a lot of riches, but
enough that you actually feel like you can

529
00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:10.800
make a bold decision. Perhaps that's
also that definitely does change every decade when

530
00:36:10.840 --> 00:36:15.760
you look at it. But then
finally with the whole with purpose and meaning,

531
00:36:16.119 --> 00:36:21.199
I think it doesn't only go for
employees but also consumers. There is

532
00:36:21.239 --> 00:36:27.679
a shift to just more ethical consumption
or being very cognizant about what the company

533
00:36:27.719 --> 00:36:30.400
doesn't doesn't stand for where they source
their products. You also see this in

534
00:36:30.440 --> 00:36:35.719
some of the younger generations where this
is a much much bigger fact factor and

535
00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:40.079
purchase decisions. So I think it's
all these things coming together where you're you're

536
00:36:40.199 --> 00:36:45.960
you're setting essentially a higher bar as
an employee that you want. You're not

537
00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:49.880
just there for the paycheck. Actually, many employees interesting would be willing to

538
00:36:49.920 --> 00:36:54.159
go down and pay to do a
job that's more meaningful for them. And

539
00:36:54.159 --> 00:36:59.039
that's a that's a big that's a
big shift. So what is so gorgeous

540
00:36:59.039 --> 00:37:01.440
about what you just did? Then, Nikolai, you probably actually scared just

541
00:37:01.639 --> 00:37:05.960
several of the listeners and viewers off
for just a second. But don't run

542
00:37:05.960 --> 00:37:08.519
away, listeners and viewers. What
you did, I believe there is What

543
00:37:08.559 --> 00:37:13.119
you said is that in order for
it to be a company where people actually

544
00:37:13.119 --> 00:37:15.920
want to come to work and stay, you kind of need to be up

545
00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:19.800
to something and you've got to you've
got to be worthy of that person's values

546
00:37:19.880 --> 00:37:22.960
and their time. And that's a
whole different thing than just hey, steady

547
00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:27.960
paycheck and benefits kind of thing.
That's a whole different bar to have to

548
00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:31.519
go toward. And that's what I'm
seeing to Nikolai is as a conscious capitalist.

549
00:37:31.559 --> 00:37:35.480
That's I practice that as well.
And a lot of my guests come

550
00:37:35.480 --> 00:37:38.599
on the show are talking very much
about this notion of creating doing business and

551
00:37:39.280 --> 00:37:45.599
creating companies that do allow people that
express an ethical vantage point in the world,

552
00:37:45.639 --> 00:37:49.760
that are doing something to help the
communities, that are doing something to

553
00:37:49.800 --> 00:37:52.119
help you clean the environment, et
cetera. And that if you're not doing

554
00:37:52.159 --> 00:37:54.480
something like that, a lot of
people are like, hmm, I think

555
00:37:54.480 --> 00:37:58.760
I'll go elsewhere. Yeah, And
I believe so much in the power of

556
00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:02.199
consumers, because at the end of
the day, an organization needs to make

557
00:38:02.239 --> 00:38:07.119
a profit, and a lot of
the companies I work with it's about setting

558
00:38:07.159 --> 00:38:09.960
strategy and improving operations and so forth. But the power of the consumer is

559
00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:15.360
ultimate. To make decisions, make
your voice heard on social media. And

560
00:38:15.400 --> 00:38:19.400
I think enough companies are making decisions
around quote unquote doing the right thing.

561
00:38:19.440 --> 00:38:22.679
Of course because they want to do
it, but also because they know that

562
00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:25.239
there's a critical mass of consumers out
there who actually care. There will always

563
00:38:25.239 --> 00:38:30.559
be some who either don't care or
actually or against what you do. There

564
00:38:30.639 --> 00:38:35.320
was a fascinating example in the European
Soccer Cup last year, where you wait

565
00:38:35.400 --> 00:38:43.079
for the organizing association said we cannot
allow for rainbow colored stadiums or flags because

566
00:38:43.079 --> 00:38:46.159
we are a non political organization.
And the immediate response was a lot of

567
00:38:46.280 --> 00:38:52.119
sponsors of the euro Cup, large
ones, Volkswagen, Coca Cola. They

568
00:38:52.159 --> 00:38:55.880
came out with rainbow colored advertisements and
statements, and of course there were some

569
00:38:55.960 --> 00:38:59.679
who are against that. I mean
they were very vocal on social media.

570
00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:02.480
Companies said, look, there are
enough people who who believe this is the

571
00:39:02.559 --> 00:39:05.880
right thing to do, and so
do we, and we're going to actually

572
00:39:05.880 --> 00:39:07.679
take a stand on values. Taking
a stand on values, I think is

573
00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:12.639
something that is coming more and more
to the forefront. I would agree.

574
00:39:12.679 --> 00:39:15.280
I had a beautiful man on my
show of Frank Calderoni, who's the CEO

575
00:39:15.280 --> 00:39:20.559
of and a Plan. He wrote
a book called Upstanding and it's about company

576
00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:24.039
character and he's that exact same point
Nikolai's. He's saying is you have to

577
00:39:24.079 --> 00:39:29.400
take a stand as an organization on
whatever your values are, not the wishywashy

578
00:39:29.440 --> 00:39:31.239
in the middle kind of thing.
Yeah, you're going to alienate some people,

579
00:39:31.280 --> 00:39:34.679
but you're going to get the people
who say, yep, but that's

580
00:39:34.760 --> 00:39:37.159
my that's what I stand for.
And so he was really putting forth the

581
00:39:37.199 --> 00:39:44.440
importance of standing on your values and
standing for and activating from your values,

582
00:39:44.480 --> 00:39:46.800
and I think that's really critical to
this time. Something different as well.

583
00:39:46.840 --> 00:39:51.639
I think, yeah, yeah,
I mean employees care and consumers care.

584
00:39:51.920 --> 00:39:55.679
Back to your point around what makes
people stay in organizations. So we we

585
00:39:57.239 --> 00:39:59.519
serve this up in the last segment, Nikolai, they you know, kind

586
00:39:59.519 --> 00:40:02.159
of what's going with employee employee voice
and what are the best organizations doing to

587
00:40:02.320 --> 00:40:07.239
improve our cance engagement. Now I'm
interested to hear your perspective on some of

588
00:40:07.280 --> 00:40:12.719
the more immediate things that leaders can
do or need to address right now in

589
00:40:12.760 --> 00:40:16.920
these pandemic times to address the desires
of talent. What they need to be

590
00:40:16.960 --> 00:40:20.639
doing. Yeah, a couple of
things come to mind. I mean,

591
00:40:20.679 --> 00:40:22.800
one is the feedback culture. So
we talked about employee voice, which is

592
00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:27.599
at an organizational level, but I
definitely don't want that the technology shouldn't be

593
00:40:27.719 --> 00:40:30.519
the answer, and technology as a
means to an end, and that the

594
00:40:30.599 --> 00:40:37.440
end is actually fostering more employee openness
and and feedback and at a team level,

595
00:40:37.519 --> 00:40:43.360
for individual leader, it's about creating
the space and really creating the psychological

596
00:40:43.400 --> 00:40:46.880
safety for employees to feel comfortable that
they can speak up without being reprimanded,

597
00:40:47.599 --> 00:40:52.960
and also creating transparency where the leader
can admit if things are going well and

598
00:40:52.960 --> 00:40:58.320
what's not going well. And that's
that takes a lot of vulnerability, but

599
00:40:58.519 --> 00:41:00.440
ultimately we see a time and time
again that when a leader can do that

600
00:41:00.559 --> 00:41:05.360
create the space, employees aren't against
the leader. They actually want to help.

601
00:41:05.400 --> 00:41:07.480
You know, we're in this together. We collectively feel like we're not

602
00:41:07.679 --> 00:41:13.039
perhaps we're not meeting our business objectives. How can we do things better?

603
00:41:13.119 --> 00:41:16.239
We want to achieve them, We
want to work together what I've seen in

604
00:41:16.559 --> 00:41:20.360
my work experience, Nicola, I'd
love for you to weigh in on this,

605
00:41:20.440 --> 00:41:22.199
is that I've seen that when organizations
say, well, we don't want

606
00:41:22.199 --> 00:41:24.480
to hear what employees have to say
and what their experience is, and then

607
00:41:24.480 --> 00:41:27.519
when when they hear it, they're
like, well, well that's not right.

608
00:41:28.679 --> 00:41:31.599
They denounced that they don't believe it
because it doesn't align with their experience,

609
00:41:31.800 --> 00:41:34.800
or if they just don't see it
that way. And I think that

610
00:41:34.840 --> 00:41:38.760
as a result of both generational differences
in values that show up, and it's

611
00:41:38.800 --> 00:41:43.480
also just a very you know,
sort of made an isolated sort of experience

612
00:41:43.519 --> 00:41:46.559
of you know, the employee base
from the leaders who actually you know,

613
00:41:46.719 --> 00:41:52.840
are stewarding the organization. What's your
perspective or experience of that disconnect. Yeah,

614
00:41:52.880 --> 00:41:57.880
it's not an easy transition. It
can be a difficult transition. So

615
00:41:57.960 --> 00:42:01.480
if there is a company where the
culture is not open to feedback and it's

616
00:42:01.480 --> 00:42:05.559
been like that for a long time
and employees aren't comfortable speaking up, it's

617
00:42:05.559 --> 00:42:08.840
it's absolutely not easy to change and
they can take it's a multi year journey

618
00:42:08.840 --> 00:42:15.199
for some. We also see in
the data that the more senior leaders are

619
00:42:15.239 --> 00:42:20.119
actually more positive. Their sentiment is
more positive in terms of how they think

620
00:42:20.119 --> 00:42:23.760
the organizations being run than employees think
it it is. So that's definitely a

621
00:42:23.760 --> 00:42:27.719
disconnect where they say, you know, this doesn't align with my experience.

622
00:42:27.840 --> 00:42:30.280
I very engage and I understand the
strategy and I can state my opinion.

623
00:42:30.599 --> 00:42:36.400
So how can the employees not state
that? But and that's often that's often

624
00:42:36.440 --> 00:42:40.880
the shift that the senior leadership team
at a really deep personal level, they

625
00:42:40.960 --> 00:42:43.800
need to have a bit of an
aha moment and say, you know,

626
00:42:43.880 --> 00:42:47.519
what are we doing to cause this
culture the sentiment that we're hearing? And

627
00:42:47.519 --> 00:42:52.559
then ultimately do we care enough to
want to do something about it? And

628
00:42:52.639 --> 00:42:55.360
the answer is I've seen many positive
examples of the let's do something, but

629
00:42:55.400 --> 00:43:02.280
they're also cases where the senior I'm
me too, likewise, so let's now

630
00:43:02.280 --> 00:43:06.760
we're getting close to the end here. You know, leaders often say they

631
00:43:06.800 --> 00:43:09.079
want ambitious people working for them,
people that are up to something in life,

632
00:43:09.800 --> 00:43:14.239
but they may not be providing the
opportunities that those people actually want.

633
00:43:14.360 --> 00:43:17.599
And so how can organizations create environments
where those ambitious people can really thrive?

634
00:43:17.639 --> 00:43:21.760
They stick around and this is their
chairl Well it's kind of coming back to

635
00:43:22.079 --> 00:43:24.639
full circle to the notion of ambition
and it being very holistic. I think

636
00:43:24.639 --> 00:43:30.000
the first thing is for organizations to
open up the dialogue around what are the

637
00:43:30.039 --> 00:43:34.199
ambitions of our employees and as a
manager, fostering that discussion. So instead

638
00:43:34.199 --> 00:43:38.320
of being really surprised when someone leaves
the company or doing everything you can to

639
00:43:38.360 --> 00:43:43.199
prevent this person from leaving. We
know that people are on average leave companies

640
00:43:43.239 --> 00:43:45.000
every three to five years. It's
just the way the world works. Now,

641
00:43:45.800 --> 00:43:49.920
instead of having that mindset that you
cannot leave, try to open up

642
00:43:49.920 --> 00:43:52.440
the discussion what are you, as
an employee passionate about, what do you

643
00:43:52.519 --> 00:43:55.679
try to achieve in life beyond what
you do between nine to five, and

644
00:43:55.719 --> 00:43:58.920
where does it align with what we're
trying to do as a company, and

645
00:43:58.960 --> 00:44:00.639
how can we actually work together and
meet in the middle. So I think

646
00:44:00.639 --> 00:44:07.440
it's creating that space for ambition more
broadly that will definitely help keep have an

647
00:44:07.519 --> 00:44:12.000
environment where ambitious people thrive. So
that goes back to what you said before

648
00:44:12.039 --> 00:44:15.199
about thing we're not talking about the
employee experience from an employee life experience that

649
00:44:15.199 --> 00:44:20.599
we're trying to address and elevate an
employee ambition. I mean, we don't

650
00:44:20.639 --> 00:44:22.840
assume every employee wants to become CEO
of the company. Right, they have

651
00:44:22.920 --> 00:44:27.960
dreams. Let's try to understand them, let's engage with them. After Kelly

652
00:44:28.039 --> 00:44:30.480
is the dream manager. Here we
come sounds good. Well, we've done

653
00:44:30.519 --> 00:44:34.320
it already, Nikolai, We've already, We've already gone through the whole time

654
00:44:34.360 --> 00:44:37.280
on the show. Here, I
want to give you the opportunity to close

655
00:44:37.320 --> 00:44:38.360
the show as you'd like. You
know, the show is listened to by

656
00:44:38.519 --> 00:44:43.760
listeners and viewers across the world.
We're all about trying to create and advance

657
00:44:43.800 --> 00:44:46.000
the conversation about how to create workplaces
where people actually want to come to work

658
00:44:46.039 --> 00:44:50.079
do their best. We create inspirational
leaders, We do business at better as

659
00:44:50.119 --> 00:44:52.559
the world. What we'd like to
leave us with today, be bold and

660
00:44:52.599 --> 00:44:59.320
set a direction and inspiring direction,
but then simultaneously learn along the way.

661
00:44:59.400 --> 00:45:01.000
Be very and so look, we
haven't figured this out. I don't think

662
00:45:01.039 --> 00:45:05.679
any company has figured out the quote
unquote future of work model. But let's

663
00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:08.360
try to see what works that's listened
to employees and let's learn along the way.

664
00:45:09.000 --> 00:45:12.599
Beautiful, Nikolai, I am so
very, very happy. I found

665
00:45:12.599 --> 00:45:15.119
you. Thank you for being willing
to say accept my LinkedIn invitation when I

666
00:45:15.159 --> 00:45:17.320
said, hey, I want to
have you come on my show. And

667
00:45:17.360 --> 00:45:21.559
thank you for being on and sharing
your beautiful work and your perspective with our

668
00:45:21.599 --> 00:45:24.000
listeners and viewers. Just invaluable.
Thank you. I'm so glad you reached

669
00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:28.039
out. Thank you so much for
the conversation. Absolutely more to come.

670
00:45:28.519 --> 00:45:30.360
And by the way, I know
you're working in another book, so you'll

671
00:45:30.360 --> 00:45:32.719
have to come back, so absolutely
all right. Okay, so listeners and

672
00:45:32.800 --> 00:45:37.880
viewers, you want to learn more
about Nikolai Chien Nelson Nielsen, his books

673
00:45:37.880 --> 00:45:40.880
are the work he does is just
start by going to return on ambition dot

674
00:45:40.880 --> 00:45:44.639
com last week. If you missed
the live show you guys schedule to be

675
00:45:44.960 --> 00:45:47.320
recorded podcast. We are on the
O. Dan McClure, system architect and

676
00:45:47.400 --> 00:45:53.760
chief choreographer at Innovation Ecosystem talking about
this this creative and necessary approach to addressing

677
00:45:53.800 --> 00:46:00.159
the wicked combination of confronting organizations today
of urgent threats and exceptional opportunities, and

678
00:46:00.199 --> 00:46:04.199
how to disrupt business trends. He
made cracking the code and curious problem solving

679
00:46:04.239 --> 00:46:07.719
accessible for us. All next week
will be on the air with Stephen Morris,

680
00:46:07.760 --> 00:46:10.360
a culture brand and business consultant,
talking about his new book called a

681
00:46:10.400 --> 00:46:15.360
Beautiful Business, an actionable manifesto to
create an unignorable business with love at the

682
00:46:15.400 --> 00:46:19.079
core. See you there. Remember
that works at least a third of our

683
00:46:19.119 --> 00:46:24.000
life. So let's work on purpose. We hope you've enjoyed this week's program.

684
00:46:24.079 --> 00:46:28.559
Be sure to tune in too,
Working on Purpose featuring your host,

685
00:46:28.599 --> 00:46:32.960
doctor Elise Cortez, each week on
the Voice America Empowerment Channel. Together,

686
00:46:34.280 --> 00:46:40.199
we'll create a world where business operates
conscientiously, leadership inspires impassioned performance, and

687
00:46:40.320 --> 00:46:45.480
employees are fulfilled in work that provides
the meaning and purpose they crave. See

688
00:46:45.480 --> 00:47:00.559
you there, Let's work on Purpose. The