Moving the Gender Conversation Forward to Improve Work Life for Men and Women

WEBVTT

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There are some people that make their
work just another thing they have to do,

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and there are those that make their
work something that they want to do.

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Welcome to Working on Purpose with your
host Elise Cortes. In our program,

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we provide guidance and inspiration from those
people who have found deeper meaning and

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personal connection to their work life.
It's beyond nine to five. It's working

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on purpose. Now Here is your
host, Elise Cortes. Welcome back to

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Working on Purpose. Thanks for tuning
again this week. Great to have you.

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I'm your host, Elise Cortes,
joining you this week from Chicago.

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I'm here doing a breakthrough project for
a client. This program is all about

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helping people more meaningfully and productively connect
with their work and equipping organizations do the

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same for their employees. It was
originally inspired by a meeting and work research

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up and doing in the last fifteen
years and now compliments the work that I

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do in Insignium, a global management
consulting firm. Let me get to the

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program a second, but first a
thank you to jobbing dot com. They

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are my media partner and sponsor.
They are the leading locally focused job board

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in the nation and are dedicated to
helping employers find quality talent in their own

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backyard while getting job seekers control over
the search that the can find work close

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to home. Great partnership. Last
week, we were on the air with

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Mary Shores, who was a successful
entrepreneur, author, and revolutionary founder of

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the groundbreaking Conscious Communications system, which
produces positive results through positive action. We

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talked about the neuroscience behind conscious communication, her perspective on how we can all

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find our unique talents and put them
to work. And now she's found her

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own purpose in changing the debt collection
business. She's in from guilt and shame

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to empowering people to be debt free. Great inspiring conversation with us this week

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is Jamie Bame Hansen, who is
a writer, speaker, investor, and

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thought leader on women and business.
With a degree in the Mathematical method of

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Social Sciences from Northwestern She spent her
early career with an economist consulting firm in

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Washington, d C. She made
a career switch after earning her NBA at

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Duke Universe and spent the next ten
plus years as a business executive in the

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tech industry, working for companies like
Yahoo, Fox in Cornerstone on Demand.

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She is the author of expanding the
conversation because real leaders leverage gender differences to

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create a competitive avantage in business.
Today, we'll be talking about how men

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and women's characteristics are perceived in a
workplace, how the workplace can be improved

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using a different lens on gender,
and how Jamie thinks the gender conversation needs

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to continue in the future. She
joins us today from Los Angeles. Jamie,

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welcome to Working on Purpose. Thank
you. I'm so happy to be

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here me too. I've been really
looking forward to this conversation and I got

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up in my hotel room this morning
thinking about it and just really looking forward

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to it. So to give us
a little context before we get started into

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the actual conversation about gender, will
you first sketch for us your professional background.

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I mean I gave a bit binfill
on kind of what you've done,

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but help us get a picture of
how you started to form some of the

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ideas that you had via your experience. Yeah. So, I mean,

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as you mentioned, I started my
career as an economist and then switched over

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to the technology sector in business school
and then you know, through my roles,

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through my roles at Yahoo and Fox
and Corner shown on demand. I

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sort of found that I was pretty
good at business development and building relationships and

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partnerships, and I had sort of
great opportunities to work with different people across

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different countries and see you know,
a variety of different leadership styles and teams,

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which was all awesome, and after
a while, I guess, I

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guess, really, I decided to
take a pause and write the book for

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the main reason being that, you
know, I've worked predominantly in male dominated

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industries, which I've never had a
problem with, but it has definitely given

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me the opportunity to see general differences
between men's and women's leadership staffs, and

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I love that. You know,
the whole women in business conversation has really

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heated up in the media, especially
in the last few years, because I

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definitely think it needs more attention.
But lately I do feel like the rhetoric

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had become very angry and defensive and
sort of one sided. And you know,

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because of all that, I think
it's really some of the things are

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falling on death years and you know, very little has changed as a consequence.

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So I really wanted to write the
book to i mean, literally expand

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the conversation and start just a more
honest, open dialogue which a broader audience.

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Gorgeous, great way to situate for
us, Jamie. So you know

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what's really interesting when you think about
this, I mean, you have court

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obviously ate what what I would call
what we would call my firm a listening

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for gender in the workplace, because
of your experience. In other words,

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your ear is at tuned to it. You have a distinction for being able

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to discern something specific about what you're
observing, and thus, of course you

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have enough material to write a book
about it. So let us into your

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world a little bit, will you, Jamie? Help us understand what have

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you been observing in the workplace in
terms of how men's and women's different characteristics

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are perceived and valued. Yeah.
I love that you said perceived and valued,

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because I actually, I really do
think they're so closely related. And

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perception is tricky, right, because
by the very nature of perception, you're

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applying your own thoughts and experiences and
biases realistically to whatever you're seeing or experiencing.

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So the first thing that I would
say with regards to men and women

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in the workplace is that I've noticed
that so often the very same characteristic that

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exists in both in a variety of
people can be perceived differently across the genders.

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So I'll give you a couple examples. When people are talking a lot

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in meetings, right, if it's
a man, he's often viewed as authoritative

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and knowledgeable, but a woman talking
a lot in a meeting is often perceived

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as rambling or overly for both and
at the same time, if the person

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is quiet and reserved, men are
deemed thoughtful or humble. Women who don't

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speak a lot are perceived as shy
or worse, unintelligence. And those examples

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go on. It almost reads like
a funny email, but it's obviously not.

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There are a bunch more of these, But what I started to think

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about were, Okay, it's interesting
on the one hand, the different perceptions

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that we have with the same characteristics, and by the same token, we're

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almost telling people to be more similar
and forcing them to ignore their differences,

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which I think is a bad thing
too. Oh my gosh, there's so

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much there, and you're reminding me
so many there's so many little ding ding

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things going out of my head as
I listened to you talk, And I'll

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just briefly say that I remember,
let's see, it'd be like fifteen sixteen

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years ago when I left mostly male
predominated work environments and went to work for

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the first time in an almost exclusively
female environment, and I went into it

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Jamie thinking, oh my god,
this is going to be terrible. It's

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going to be I know, a
lot of backbiting and you know, et

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cetera. So it was a phenomenal
experience. And so even I, as

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a woman, walk into these environments
with these what do we want to say,

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unbacked up expectations and bias, which
is just crazy. Yeah. No,

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I think it's very natural on both
sides. I mean, honestly,

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when I started writing the book,
I was really worried about being seen as

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you know, hear me wear feminist
types because I was like, okay,

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I think that's falling on deaf ears. But it's also like, oh,

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I don't relate to that, Like
I love being girly, but I also

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can do a lot of other things
that are not in the girl spectrum.

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So I really, you know,
sort of battle with that myself as well,

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my own stereotypes, my own biases. Well, you know, speaking

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of that, I don't it's it's
just interesting, Jamie. I remember when

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the word feminist had, you know, a lot more claim in conversations than

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it seems to have today. I
very seldom hear that word very much these

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days, But I'm just curious,
what do you think it means to be

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a feminist today? Key, It's
very simple. I think feminism means equal

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rights and opportunities for women. And
I think maybe the reason why you're not

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hearing that word per se is because
who doesn't agree with that, right,

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I mean, pretty much everyone agrees
with that concept, but I think taking

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I think the challenge is where people
equate the concept of equality with the idea

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that men and women are or have
to be the same. And I think

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that's part of the problem because to
me, men and women are absolutely equal,

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there's no question there. But I
don't think for a minute that we're

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the same. And I think once
we start treating or even expecting people to

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be the same, especially in business, honestly, we're really missing out on

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a chance to use our differences in
a positive way. You know. One

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of the great things I love about
hosting the show, Jamie, is I

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kind of consider it my own,
you know, weekly opportunity for professional development

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to kind of nurture my mind and
simulate my thinking, etc. And then

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I just have to be sharing with
whoever's listening, you know, on the

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radio. That's kind of how I've
been to ask you the show. And

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I love what you just said there
about this notion that maybe you don't hear

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the word feminists so much and worse
because everybody expects that the two genders are

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equal. That's that's fascinating idea.
I hope that that's exactly right, and

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maybe that is where we're headed.
I mean, I'm not ashamed say I'm

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fifty two years old, so I've
been in the workplace for over thirty years

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and it has changed. It certainly
has changed. And I can tell you

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even just you know, the way
we're preparing for the workplace is different.

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I mean, I also teach at
the Methodist University in Dallas, and we

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most of us know that fifty seven
percent of most educational or college students are

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female today. Yeah, clearly a
big shift, right. So one of

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the things I think is great about
what you're doing and expanding this conversation is

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the earth is literally moving under our
feet with regard to how the workplace is

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changing between the genders and many other
ways, and so it's very timely.

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I guess I'd like to also ask
you that along that line, I mean,

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what kinds of things are you hearing
from your readers? What are people

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saying when they join the conversation to
expand it? So, I mean there's

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a couple of different things I've been
hearing, you know from I love kind

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of say. I really love when
guys enter the conversation once they feel comfortable,

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I guess, for lack of a
better words, that they can really

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be honest about it, because I
think it can be tough, you know,

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And that's where I think some of
some of the rhetoric can become a

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little bit angry, like you said. And there's a difference between feminism and

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in equality, I guess in terms
of you know, rights like human rights,

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healthcare, legal equalities, that kind
of shame right versus business right and

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capitalism, I guess supply and demand, because they're not everything is fair right,

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and you know, I mean anything
gender or otherwise right. Fairness isn't

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always a concept so big in business
right. I mean, it's it's survival

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of the fittest, it is supplying
demand, it's competition, it's it's all

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of that which is not the same
as equal rations or you know, equality

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for all or the sameness again.
And so I think you know business leaders

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that have sort of jumped into this
conversation. It's tricky in business. It's

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the question of like, you know, do you hold spots for women?

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What do we do about the pay
gap? Do you have to recognizing different

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gender characteristics? Is it the responsibility
of the leader or the organization, male

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or female to abide by those not
abide but sort to work with the different

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characteristics to help in some ways versus
others. You know, where does responsibility

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lie versus you know, just kind
of because they want to or because it

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actually makes business sense. Those are
the conversations, but I think are really

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part of part of the interesting thing
of expanding it. I really appreciate what

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you said about that. You really
appreciate and love when men join the conversation.

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So again, want toke up this
idea with you and see what your

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response is to it. So I
do a fair amount of speaking to women

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about leadership and about empowerment topics.
It's just something that I've kind of gravitated

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to over the years and I love
doing it. And a few months ago,

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a couple months ago, I guess, I was moderating a panel at

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a pharmaceutical conference and it was really
the whole thing was about empowering female leadership

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within the field, because, like
what you were saying before, it happens

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to be a very male dominated industry. What I appreciated about that is that

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so it was like seven thirty am
when we had breakfast. We picked off

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the panel at eight o'clock on Friday
morning or Thursday morning, and there were

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probably ninety five women in the room
and exactly three men. And the first

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thing I did was I said,
good morning, and I want to welcome

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and thank men for joining the conversation
here and supporting whatever woman you're with.

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And you know, I wanted them
to be part of the conversation, as

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you were saying. And I hear
this kind of feedback from men oftentimes when

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they do happen to join a women's
oriented conversation around leadership development, et cetera,

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they say, and this kind of
maybe it gets to what you're saying

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about not being equal, but they're
not being similar, not being the same,

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but being different, and that's great. They always say, man,

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women have this thing about being unified
and men would never do something like this.

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This is just not what men do, and right. I always walk

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away from that thinking to myself,
yeah, I know, isn't it cool?

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What's your How do you respond to
that what I just told you about?

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Well? I think, I mean, I think men never had to

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right, so, like it's to
be always in the majority, always in

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like the superior position, and try
to relate to someone that's not. So

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I think that's hard to begin with. But I think part of it is

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looking if you look at it as
an US versus them, or even like

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those guys being there to support the
women. I think, honestly, I

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think that's where it's sort of like
it's falling apart because yeah, maybe they're

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going to be there because it works
with their schedule, or again they're,

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like you said, they're supporting their
friend or their colleague. But that's not

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going to move the needle, right, I mean in business of all things,

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like, people are motivated by business
and profit and the bottom line,

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right, So I don't think it's
going to honestly like do enough to say,

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Okay, we got to fix the
gender and balance or the gender problem,

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make it more equitable, because that's
what's fair. I think that's going

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to work. I don't think.
I think I really don't think that's work

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at all. I think it comes
down to, like, Okay, maybe

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that would be more fair, but
more importantly, it's going to be an

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advantage for your business. It's going
to lead to bigger success, bigger innovation,

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bigger profits. And here's why.
And the numbers actually really do support

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this. So that's why I'm like, I feel like we're having the wrong

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conversations to some degree. Appreciate so
much your perspective and that that takes me

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to just the general notion of you
know, valuing differences in general, meaning

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you know, that's the general diversity
and inclusion discussion, not just not just

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thrender, et cetera. But over
the years, I'm right, I've had

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some wonderful opportunities to spearhead those kind
of panels, those kind of conferences,

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and I and of course I'm a
person who craves just somebody who's different from

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me in terms of conversation, which
is right. I love to travel,

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I love languages. So you focus
on the gender piece of it, But

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how do you think that's connect to
the rest of the whole diversity conversation.

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I think it's a total connection.
I think you're absolutely right. I mean,

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I focus on gender more because that's
where my research lies and sort of

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my interest is there. But I
think you're absolutely right. I think it's

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it really comes down to just complementary
differences, right, and perspectives, and

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that can be gender, it can
be race, it can be age,

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it can be geography, you know, it can be talent. Like it

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really is across the board. And
so I think it's easy for people then

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to say, Okay, well there's
different perspectives between you know, a white

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man living in Minnesota and an Asian
man living in Taiwan. Okay, Like,

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yes, that's true, right,
But the gender one is like it's

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kind of fifty to fifty for like
the broader global world. So it's like,

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okay, why don't we start there
with the gender pa. You know,

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well, I am thrilled to be
talking about that because I think it

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is hugely important to expand that conversation
and to advance it. In one of

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the things you and I talked about
when we were on the phone, and

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I know this is in your book
too is the B word in the workplace,

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of course, I mean bias.
Will you find it on that?

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Yeah, So I also did a
ton of research on this. So I

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mean most people are aware of sort
of conscious biases, you know, which

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we kind of all have. You
know, we live in a very media

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centric world. We're blasted from like
you know, the day we're born with

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all these different outward sensory things that
are teaching us different biases. But you

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also have a lot of implicit biases
or subconscious biases, which are totally normal,

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they're not malicious at all. But
that's also you know, put forth

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by different external factories, factors that
are completely found our control. So it's

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what we see, it's what we
read, it's our own experiences. And

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again they're they're not good or bad, they're just they just exist and they

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really do have an effect on our
perception of things. Everything. For to

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give you a couple examples in the
gender space, everything from a person's voice,

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so like a higher regi versus a
lower register. A lower register for

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example, signals to most people a
sense of authority in a different way,

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which makes sense. It's kind of
intuitive. You know, most people are

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like oh yeah, that works right, But there have been studies done that

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now show that actually lower register and
they've actually like quantified it by the amount

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of hurts involved equates to a different
pay compensation, which is fascinating. Then

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when you get into the world of
business, so then it's like, okay,

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if the average woman's voice register is, you know, certain hurts higher

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than a man's, she is essentially
at a disadvantage from the moment she speaks

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right, which cannot be over which
can be overcome. But that's the good

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thing. It's just sort of being
aware of these biases. So the biggest

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takeaway for me in that research was
one again that these are not malicious.

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So most of the time a person's
implicit or subconscious biases actually do not align

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with their outlt thinking, which is
good. That's good. And then the

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other piece of that is that they're
one hundred percent valueable. So once you're

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aware and become and sort of recognize
them, you can actively work to change

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them or combat them, which is
really helpful too. Oh my gosh,

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Jamie, there's so much I want
to say about that, but let's cut

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to our first break. After the
break, I'll comment on that I'm your

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host, Elis Cortez. We've been
on year with Jamie Bain Henson, who

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is the author of Expanding the Conversation
Because real leaders leverage gender differences to create

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a competitive advantage in business. She
joined it today from Los Angeles. We've

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been talking a bit about how it
is that she's gathered her perspective on gender.

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After the break, we're going to
talk about how maybe changing it can

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make for a better business world.
Stay with us. Friend us on Facebook

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00:18:52.279 --> 00:18:57.960
to keep up with what's empowering the
world. Voice America Empowerment Alice Cortez is

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00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:03.240
a speaker and an agement and development
catalyst. She designs and delivers professional development,

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00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:08.240
leadership and engagement workshops and can bring
her expertise to your organization. She

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00:19:08.319 --> 00:19:14.880
will help ignite meaningful development within your
workforce that will increase employee engagement, performance

279
00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:18.160
and retention. To learn more or
to invite Elise to speak to your organization,

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please visit her at www dot Elisecortes
dot com. She would welcome the

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opportunity to help get your employees working
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It's your world. Motivate, change, succeed, Voice America Empowerment dot

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00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:17.680
com. This is Working on Purpose
with Elise Cortes. To reach our program

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today, please call in to one
triple eight three four six nine one four

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You may also send an email to
Elise A. L i Se at Elisecortes

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dot com. Now back to Working
on Purpose. Thanks for staying with us,

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00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:41.599
and welcome back to Working on Purpose
if you're just joining us. My

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00:20:41.640 --> 00:20:45.160
guest is Jamie Bain Hansen, who
is a writer, speaker, investor,

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00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:48.559
and thought leader on women and business. She spent her early career with an

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economics consulting from in Washington, d
C. As she made a career switch

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after earning her MBA at Duke University
and spent the next ten plus years as

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00:20:55.319 --> 00:20:59.119
a business executive in the tech industry
and working for such companies as Yahoo,

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Fox, and Chorus on Demand.
She is the author of Expanding the Conversation

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00:21:03.799 --> 00:21:07.960
Because real leaders leverage general persons to
create a competitive advantage in business. I'm

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00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:11.319
your host elis Cortes. So,
Jamie, just before the break, you

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were talking about the good news being
that our biases are something that one we

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can surface to a more conscious level, and two actually work to change.

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And I just wanted to quickly comment
on that because it's a lot of the

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work that we do right now as
management consultants working with executives. But I

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really want to tell our listeners how
encouraging that ought to be for them,

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because you know, we're not stuck
with our biases. We're not stuck with

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these hidden things that may may actually
disempower us or the people that we work

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with. We can actually reveal them, surface them, and then apply a

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different mindset. And I hope that's
encouraging to women and men. Yeah,

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I think so too. You know, there's one other example that I was

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thinking of us I think really speaks
to that, especially, which is which

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actually both men and women play into, which is so especially in American business.

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Studies have shown that the characteristic of
stability is very revered in American business.

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Right, and then now think about
sort of the perfect illustration of a

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very successful, high powered, fierce
woman. If you think of like a

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sleek, polished high heel too,
right, like a loubatant or something fantastic,

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And then you think, okay,
that's really great until you realize that's

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five inches of millimeters thin little weight
that this woman has to stand on.

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So like typically all women know this. When you're on heels, you're rocking

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back and forth, you know,
you come up with a variety of different

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ways to get comfortable or make it
through a long day. And I think

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subconsciously, both to men and women, we don't realize that that's also sort

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of projecting, you know, an
illustration of instability. This rocking back and

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forth, is going side to side, just sitting down, whatever the case

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may be. But once you recognize
that, then I think if you can

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sort of overlay that with the with
a feeling of empathy or even like wow,

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that woman is strong for standing in
those heels all day, or like

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wow, I don't know that I
could do that. It sort of paints

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it in a different picture. It's
no longer a sort of subconscious bias of

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there's a lot of instability happening here. I don't feel so secure versus Wow,

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this is a really strong woman that
can do all this and dance backwards

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and heels as they like to say. Right, I've got to see the

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picture in my mind by the way
Jamie faces for painting it for me,

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great example. Okay, well along
those lines, right, So part of

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what I think you're getting at is
just starting to really look at the you

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know, the other gender with a
different lens. And so for this next

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segment, I really wanted to think
about what can we do to maybe change

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our lens and how am I doing
so improve the business world. So the

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next thing I wanted to talk about
is, you know, when you think

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about you painted a picture for us, how characteristics tend to be viewed among

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the two genders? How do you
think the work could be enhanced and maybe

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even productivity improved if we could get
away from this black and white dichotomy thinking

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about how we tend to see the
other gender. I think we need to

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stop associating different characteristics with different genders, and we could strip away those preconceived

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perceptions and then just take its space
value in individuals different strengths and characteristics.

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I think just by doing that,
we start to see people not as men

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in this camp and women in this
camp, but more as unique individuals with

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a collection of different skills and personality
traits. But that makes sense. That's

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yummy, That's really yummy. Okay. Now, I think we've probably talked

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about this in our introductory conversation together
on the phone, but I probably told

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you that one of my long standing
fascinations is the idea of androgyny, and

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the reason't right. So the reason
I've been so attracted to that is,

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and maybe it's somewhat related to this
conversation, or maybe it's the beginning of

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this conversation, but I've always had
the notion that, you know, if

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men could, you know, could
adopt some of the considered the more traditional

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sort of aspects of being you know, emotionally available, being able to emotionally

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express themselves, being in touch with
their emotions one, how much freer they

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would be. And now we know
today that when they added emotional intelligence to

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their management style, we know how
much more effective they are, So that's

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born out. And then on the
other side, when women can own more

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of what's considered a traditional stance of
power often associated with men, you know,

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look what happens to their careers and
their ability to actually impact things.

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And so I've had this long fascination
with androgyny. How do you connect that

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with what you've been observing and what
you care about regarding to the gender conversation,

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I think you're absolutely right. I
mean, I think if we look

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at the different personalities and strengths as
different tools rather than you know, male

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specific, female specific, whatever you
have you then they can be used in

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different ways. So you know,
sometimes, yeah, sometimes empathy is really

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needed for a given situation. Right, it doesn't have to come from a

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woman, but you know, if
it typically does, maybe a man can

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see that and say, wow,
I need that, I need to learn

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how to do that because in X, Y and Z situations that really would

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have come and handy. Right,
Sometimes you need someone with more aggression.

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Sometimes you need someone with a more
authoritative stance, or someone to play the

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role of you know, the nice
guy moderator, like I think that they're

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just different tools. And the more
that you can build your personal arsenal,

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the more you have at your disposal, not just like to use individually,

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but also use in combination with each
other for a given circumstance. I just

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want to give a quick exampleare that
comes to mind when it comes to somebody

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that kind of falls into the camp
I just mentioned before, just it just

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00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:49.359
occurred to me. But one of
our two founding partners is a very very

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00:26:49.400 --> 00:26:55.759
polished, handsome man, very well
schooled, very articulate, very smart business

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man. And he he's great at
me, understands the whole world of economics

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00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:04.279
and business, et cetera. And
he is one of the first people to

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cry in a room when he gets
moved. And it is so lovely to

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00:27:08.880 --> 00:27:14.039
behold Jamie because it sets him apart. I mean, he looks, he's

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accessible. He is really probably so
powerful, right, incredibly powerful? Yeah.

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00:27:19.240 --> 00:27:22.400
Yeah, an example what we're talking
about, and there it is.

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00:27:22.440 --> 00:27:26.559
It's not like this, this could
be one day. It does exist today,

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00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:29.599
and when it does exist, I
think it really does set these people

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00:27:29.599 --> 00:27:33.160
apart. I do think so too. I think I think it can be

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trickier going the other way. So
I think like I think men typically have

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an easier time the more that they
can adopt some stereotypically female traits, whereas

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00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:48.359
you know, historically, when a
woman adopts some more you know, stereotypically

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00:27:48.359 --> 00:27:52.279
male traits, she is you know, called names or whatnot. Right,

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00:27:52.400 --> 00:27:56.680
So I think that can be a
little bit more difficult for a woman,

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00:27:56.759 --> 00:27:59.480
But it's just something that we need
to continue to work at to not see

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00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:03.359
them as just underdominated things but actually
like tools in our arsenal. You know

401
00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:07.480
what's beautiful about that? What you
just said there, it's so funny.

402
00:28:07.640 --> 00:28:11.240
I guess I don't know how people
would perceive me, but I guess I

403
00:28:11.279 --> 00:28:15.079
would. I certainly think that being
a woman in business, when I see

404
00:28:15.079 --> 00:28:21.079
a woman who is direct and communicates
directly and with authority and is articulate,

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00:28:21.480 --> 00:28:25.000
I think she's a rock star.
Now. I've also been though, in

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00:28:25.279 --> 00:28:29.359
conversations and crowds where sometimes some of
the you're right, the response is wow,

407
00:28:29.400 --> 00:28:33.200
I feel like, you know,
this is intimidating, or she's you

408
00:28:33.240 --> 00:28:34.359
know, kind of out of line, or a boy, she's got her

409
00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:41.039
mouth on her, or so this
is my own bias responding to yeah,

410
00:28:41.119 --> 00:28:45.759
I like it. That rock so
I recognize that that's not necessarily registered maybe

411
00:28:45.759 --> 00:28:51.839
from all the male vantage points.
Yeah, I think it also comes down

412
00:28:51.880 --> 00:28:55.319
to, like if it feels authentic
or not, Like, if it feels

413
00:28:55.400 --> 00:28:59.400
genuine that you think that that person
is owning it and that it's coming from

414
00:28:59.440 --> 00:29:02.599
a real place and she is who
she is, and that's like you buy

415
00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:03.279
it, you know what I mean, You're like, yeah, I'm getting

416
00:29:03.319 --> 00:29:07.880
it. I'm eating up everything she's
saying, super empowering. If it feels

417
00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:12.200
more like she's playing a role,
then I think it becomes you can see

418
00:29:12.200 --> 00:29:15.519
through that a little bit more,
and that's where it sort of starts to

419
00:29:15.519 --> 00:29:18.799
not feel so over. Okay,
that makes complete sense. Yeah, okay.

420
00:29:19.799 --> 00:29:22.720
Well, one of the things I
like to do in this show,

421
00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:26.559
Jamie for my listeners is I really
always like to of course enlighten them and

422
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:29.759
inspire them, but I also want
them to walk away with something actionable that

423
00:29:29.799 --> 00:29:32.799
they can actually put to work as
soon as they get off the air.

424
00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:36.240
And I know you talk in your
book about the need for leaders to reframe

425
00:29:36.279 --> 00:29:40.599
the conversation about gender and contribution at
work. So what do you think maybe

426
00:29:40.599 --> 00:29:42.559
are a couple of things we can
do to help guide them forward toward that

427
00:29:42.640 --> 00:29:47.799
role. So I think this is
a really important piece of the equation,

428
00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:52.319
and I think a lot of it
actually starts with language and words and labels,

429
00:29:52.359 --> 00:29:55.640
because I think we've, like in
general, we've become very careless in

430
00:29:55.640 --> 00:29:59.640
the department, in this department,
which is not helping. So I think

431
00:29:59.640 --> 00:30:03.319
that me many people, myself,
I've fallen into this as well, that

432
00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:07.039
we're sort of unaware of. You
know, how innocent labels can be attributed

433
00:30:07.079 --> 00:30:11.920
to characteristics having a direct correlation to
the persists of the people that are associated

434
00:30:11.960 --> 00:30:15.640
with And again that's you know,
it speaks again to perception and reality being

435
00:30:15.720 --> 00:30:21.599
so closely intertwined that that's where it
becomes dangerous. So I'll give you another

436
00:30:21.640 --> 00:30:22.920
example. This is in the book
as well, but I like this example

437
00:30:22.920 --> 00:30:27.200
a lot. So you know,
oftentimes we speak, especially about women being

438
00:30:27.559 --> 00:30:33.000
very creative, right, and that's
that's an advantage, it's a positive compliment.

439
00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:37.079
But if you think about it,
when we think about creativity, you

440
00:30:37.119 --> 00:30:41.839
know, a lot of the visual
that comes to mind is just naturally is

441
00:30:41.839 --> 00:30:45.640
like Crayola. They built an entire
brand around it, and which is amazing,

442
00:30:45.720 --> 00:30:49.960
but it's also sort of whimsical.
And lovely and sort of childlike.

443
00:30:51.119 --> 00:30:57.200
Right. Creative and innovative mean almost
the exact same thing, but innovative is

444
00:30:57.240 --> 00:31:03.119
a much more professional sounding term that
is rarely associated with women. Women are

445
00:31:03.160 --> 00:31:07.160
rarely called innovative. They're more often
called creative, and men are called innovative.

446
00:31:07.559 --> 00:31:12.160
It's again almost they're almost embarrass synonyms, right, But they they give

447
00:31:12.200 --> 00:31:18.160
off very different impressions. And I
think that once we recognize that, like

448
00:31:18.319 --> 00:31:22.920
leadership can recognize that and really take
care to use their language in a specific

449
00:31:23.039 --> 00:31:32.519
way when describing different employees or different
personnelity within the organization in a positive way.

450
00:31:32.599 --> 00:31:33.640
You know, when you were talking
about that, there's a word that

451
00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:37.839
came to my mind that seems like
it's probably a no note today, and

452
00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:38.599
I want to throw it out there, and I want to see if you

453
00:31:38.640 --> 00:31:41.119
have any other terms that you think
we should displain and avoid. But the

454
00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:47.880
word that comes to mind is cute. Is what cute? Cute? Cute?

455
00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:52.160
Cute? Okay? Right? So
when I think about like as a

456
00:31:52.200 --> 00:31:56.680
woman, for example, I probably
would never want to say that another woman

457
00:31:56.759 --> 00:32:00.839
is cute in any way, right, And I start to I just it's

458
00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:04.359
just not servicing for me in this
conversation, and I don't know how often

459
00:32:04.400 --> 00:32:08.200
I say cute, but it's occurring
to me that that's probably not serving my

460
00:32:08.359 --> 00:32:13.440
gender very well. Your thoughts,
Yeah, no, I agree with you.

461
00:32:13.519 --> 00:32:15.720
And it's interesting. I don't know
if you saw. You know,

462
00:32:15.759 --> 00:32:21.480
the actress Mayam Biolix. She's on
Big Bang Theory. She's to play Blossom

463
00:32:21.720 --> 00:32:25.680
back in the day. Well,
she's in addition to being a very famous

464
00:32:25.720 --> 00:32:30.240
actress, she's also a neuroscientist,
which is amazing, and she yeah,

465
00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:36.559
she's incredible. And she did this
whole sort of video blog I guess that

466
00:32:36.920 --> 00:32:43.119
viral where she talks about the word
girls and how she thinks that adult women

467
00:32:43.559 --> 00:32:47.839
should never be referred to as girls
by men or women, and she kind

468
00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:52.400
of goes off about it. And
I think this is really interesting because I

469
00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:57.279
often say girls about my female friends
or colleagues, or even about myself,

470
00:32:57.319 --> 00:33:00.200
you know, I'll refer to myself
as a girl. And her take is

471
00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:05.519
that it is sort of putting as
a girl as a child. She's not

472
00:33:05.559 --> 00:33:08.759
a woman, so it's inherently putting
her at a lower position, which is

473
00:33:08.839 --> 00:33:13.160
feeding through you know, everything that
goes forward to that, especially in business,

474
00:33:13.359 --> 00:33:15.359
which I thought was a really interesting
take on it definitely made me me

475
00:33:15.480 --> 00:33:22.279
thake differently sort of my language use
there. You know, this is not

476
00:33:22.279 --> 00:33:25.319
not quite the same thing, but
it conjures for me something along these lines.

477
00:33:27.359 --> 00:33:30.160
So for me, I love being
a woman. I love dressing well,

478
00:33:30.440 --> 00:33:36.680
I love I love my you know, very pretty shoes, jewelry,

479
00:33:37.240 --> 00:33:40.519
I take time with my makeup,
and I really enjoy being a woman.

480
00:33:42.680 --> 00:33:47.000
And I don't mind at all being
separated or what I want to say,

481
00:33:47.000 --> 00:33:52.319
segregated or not segregated, but called
out as such, you know, the

482
00:33:52.359 --> 00:33:55.119
woman in the room kind of thing. But you're right, you know,

483
00:33:55.799 --> 00:34:01.200
if that's different than being a girl, which sounds more uh less mature,

484
00:34:01.400 --> 00:34:05.240
less, like there's less value.
I don't want to say less value,

485
00:34:05.240 --> 00:34:08.239
but like there's something less evolved or
mature there almost what do you think is

486
00:34:08.360 --> 00:34:14.039
yeah, okay, okay, yeah, that was how it was coming for

487
00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:16.119
me, and I just it was
one of those associative thoughts and made the

488
00:34:16.119 --> 00:34:17.719
result. The other thing is though, on the other side of that,

489
00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:22.480
though, I hate being called ma'm
but I'll take miss all day long.

490
00:34:22.599 --> 00:34:27.440
I agree, I totally agree.
I think that's our own biases about age

491
00:34:27.440 --> 00:34:29.760
and we're like, wait, who's
a mam. Could you just say message

492
00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:32.880
that's more of an age thing.
I totally agree. But I think what

493
00:34:32.920 --> 00:34:37.239
you're also getting at too, is
that you know, there's what you're talking

494
00:34:37.280 --> 00:34:43.239
about, femininity right, and that
it is perfectly okay to be a professional

495
00:34:43.360 --> 00:34:47.880
leader in business and keep your femininity
right. And I think that's where But

496
00:34:47.880 --> 00:34:52.840
but again, like to your point
that that's something that's a differentiator between you

497
00:34:52.880 --> 00:34:55.679
know, a male dominated industry,
right, you have a lot of men

498
00:34:55.719 --> 00:34:59.719
in a room, a feminine woman
is going to stand out. And I

499
00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:04.039
don't think that's a bad thing.
I think that's actually a huge advantage and

500
00:35:04.079 --> 00:35:07.960
I don't think that has to be
separate from a professional leader. I still

501
00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:10.519
appreciate you saying that. I certainly
say that all the time when I speak

502
00:35:10.559 --> 00:35:15.039
to women, but for you to
say it is another thing, and I

503
00:35:15.119 --> 00:35:19.360
completely agree, and I want the
women listening to the show today to actually

504
00:35:19.400 --> 00:35:22.760
get that message from you. Please, you know, don't be afraid to

505
00:35:22.760 --> 00:35:25.119
be feminine, you know, especially
a role or in a business role.

506
00:35:25.159 --> 00:35:28.280
Please, I mean, don't think
you have to just put on a suit

507
00:35:28.320 --> 00:35:31.960
and deepen your voice. And even
even though you helped us understand how people

508
00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:36.079
respond to that. I would hate
right well, And then I think that's

509
00:35:36.119 --> 00:35:39.440
a good point, Like it is
important to understand how people respond and what

510
00:35:39.559 --> 00:35:44.119
works. But that doesn't mean that
like that's right and that that can't be

511
00:35:44.239 --> 00:35:47.360
changed. I was I had this
interview with this I was speaking with this

512
00:35:47.400 --> 00:35:52.760
woman who runs sort of like a
PR communication a global PR communications company,

513
00:35:52.119 --> 00:35:58.159
and she helps different leaders of different
global organizations sort of weren't on their image,

514
00:35:58.199 --> 00:36:00.360
I guess, as that's how she
would probably describe it. And one

515
00:36:00.400 --> 00:36:04.159
of the things she was saying,
she's an older woman, and one of

516
00:36:04.159 --> 00:36:07.360
her pieces of advice to the younger
women in the room where if you want

517
00:36:07.400 --> 00:36:10.840
it, regardless of industry, whether
you're a journalist, reporter, in tech,

518
00:36:10.880 --> 00:36:15.079
whatever the case may be, if
you want it to be taken seriously,

519
00:36:15.719 --> 00:36:21.480
she said, your hair could not
be longer than shoulder length. And

520
00:36:21.559 --> 00:36:24.039
all these women in the room starts
just like writing furiously, and I'm sitting

521
00:36:24.079 --> 00:36:30.920
there thinking, is she kidding you? Like, what does this mean I

522
00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:32.199
have to cut my hair, I
have to wear in a ponytail? What

523
00:36:32.320 --> 00:36:38.159
is going on? And I absolutely
refused to believe that. What how I

524
00:36:38.239 --> 00:36:43.840
wore my hair on my head was
more important than what was happening inside my

525
00:36:43.920 --> 00:36:46.519
head. And so I was like, Okay, even if I understand that

526
00:36:47.039 --> 00:36:52.000
you know her, her date,
it's backed up by data and research's she's

527
00:36:52.039 --> 00:36:54.039
done this right. She actually has
the data to support this in terms of

528
00:36:54.039 --> 00:36:59.119
how you're perceived. To me,
that was something like that's got to be

529
00:36:59.239 --> 00:37:01.400
changed. Like maybe that maybe that
did work. Maybe that was sort of

530
00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:06.000
the way to get ahead was to
be seen as, you know, more

531
00:37:06.039 --> 00:37:08.960
masculine or less threatening or less feminine, if you will. But that's not

532
00:37:09.039 --> 00:37:12.519
something that's going to work going forward. And I think that that's where we

533
00:37:12.559 --> 00:37:15.639
have to become our own to advoctates
to change there. Oh, I am

534
00:37:15.760 --> 00:37:17.840
so with you, Jamie, and
on that. Let's take our next break,

535
00:37:19.360 --> 00:37:22.199
perfect timing for that. We'll leave
that as a resounding something for folks

536
00:37:22.199 --> 00:37:24.360
to think about on a break.
I'm your host Fank Sportes with It on

537
00:37:24.360 --> 00:37:29.559
the air with Jamie bain Hanson,
who is the author of Expanding the Conversations.

538
00:37:29.599 --> 00:37:32.599
Because real leaders leverage gender differences to
create a competitive advantage in business,

539
00:37:34.039 --> 00:37:36.800
you're joined to say from Los Angeles, after the wreak, we're going to

540
00:37:36.840 --> 00:37:39.800
talk more about how the gender conversation
can relate to really help people more meaningfully

541
00:37:39.840 --> 00:37:58.599
and productively connect with their work.
Stay with us Friend us on Facebook to

542
00:37:58.679 --> 00:38:05.199
keep up with what's empowering the world. Voice America in powermanc Alice Cortes is

543
00:38:05.239 --> 00:38:09.480
a speaker and engagement and development catalyst. She designs and delivers professional development,

544
00:38:09.679 --> 00:38:15.760
leadership and engagement workshops and can bring
her expertise to your organization. She will

545
00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:21.320
help ignite meaningful development within your workforce
that will increase employee engagement, performance and

546
00:38:21.480 --> 00:38:24.440
retention. To learn more or to
invite Elise to speak to your organization,

547
00:38:24.599 --> 00:38:30.480
please visit her at www dot Elisecortes
dot com. She would welcome the opportunity

548
00:38:30.519 --> 00:38:37.199
to help get your employees working on
purpose. We're making it easier to listen

549
00:38:37.199 --> 00:38:40.400
to the Voice American Talk Radio Network
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550
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551
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552
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to all our show archives on demand, all from your iPhone, BlackBerry or

553
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554
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Market and get ready to to in
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555
00:39:02.719 --> 00:39:17.719
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Get inspired, encouraged and connected on our

556
00:39:17.800 --> 00:39:23.239
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557
00:39:23.320 --> 00:39:29.639
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every Wednesday at four pm Pacific on the

558
00:39:29.719 --> 00:39:34.280
Voice America Empowerment Channel. Tune into
the Power Party for positive, uplifting,

559
00:39:34.519 --> 00:39:51.599
life changing talk radio. Visit Starstyle
Radio dot com. Jo you land follow

560
00:39:51.679 --> 00:40:04.400
us on Twitter for more great ideas
at Voice America Empowerment. This is Working

561
00:40:04.480 --> 00:40:08.000
on Purpose with Elise Cortes. To
reach our program today, please call in

562
00:40:08.039 --> 00:40:13.679
to one triple eight three four six
nine one four one. Again that's one

563
00:40:13.719 --> 00:40:16.880
triple eight three four six nine one
four one. You may also send an

564
00:40:16.920 --> 00:40:24.119
email to Elise A. L Se
at Elisecortes dot com. Now back to

565
00:40:24.400 --> 00:40:29.920
working on Purpose. Pleas the thing
with us and welcome back to working on

566
00:40:29.960 --> 00:40:32.760
Purpose if you're just tuning in.
My guest is Jamie Bame Hansen, who

567
00:40:32.800 --> 00:40:36.800
is a writer, speaker, investor, and thought leader on women in business.

568
00:40:37.199 --> 00:40:39.280
She said her early career with an
economics consulting from the Washington d C

569
00:40:39.679 --> 00:40:44.280
and then made a career switch after
earning her NBA at Duke University, spending

570
00:40:44.320 --> 00:40:46.679
the next ten plus years as a
business executive and tech industry working for such

571
00:40:46.719 --> 00:40:52.159
companies as Yahoo, Fox, and
Cornerstone on Demand. She is the author

572
00:40:52.199 --> 00:40:57.119
of Expanding the Conversation Because real leaders
leverage generators is to create a competitive advantage

573
00:40:57.159 --> 00:41:00.719
in business. I'm your host,
Elise Cortes. So just before the breaking

574
00:41:00.800 --> 00:41:05.880
and we were finishing our conversation about
how the world of business can be better

575
00:41:05.880 --> 00:41:07.960
when we start to change the lens. And so before we go to the

576
00:41:08.079 --> 00:41:10.920
next segment here, will you say
a little bit about how do you think

577
00:41:12.079 --> 00:41:19.199
organizations win would they start to change
their lens on gender? Yeah, so,

578
00:41:19.280 --> 00:41:22.719
I mean I think most of it
comes down to perspective. So,

579
00:41:22.239 --> 00:41:27.239
you know, any time that you
have a group of people looking at a

580
00:41:27.320 --> 00:41:30.440
challenge or a problem, regardless of
you know, the size of the problem

581
00:41:30.519 --> 00:41:34.119
or even the industry it's in,
it's the same. The people looking at

582
00:41:34.119 --> 00:41:37.360
the problem are all similar in the
way that they think, or approach it

583
00:41:37.480 --> 00:41:42.599
or talk about it. It's basically
one person talking to themselves. Right.

584
00:41:43.039 --> 00:41:47.000
If you have different people with different
perspectives and different approaches to the problem and

585
00:41:47.079 --> 00:41:52.000
different ways to communicate about the problem. Then you know, it becomes a

586
00:41:52.079 --> 00:41:55.159
much more well, it becomes a
much more interesting conversation. But more importantly,

587
00:41:55.599 --> 00:42:00.480
you all of a sudden have more
alternatives to find a solution, basically

588
00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:06.159
casting a wider net. So you
and I were talking over the breakout,

589
00:42:06.239 --> 00:42:07.599
this is such a fun conversation for
both of us that we kind of chime

590
00:42:07.639 --> 00:42:13.079
into the others and start to add
on each other's sentences. Yeah, I

591
00:42:13.280 --> 00:42:16.760
love that, and it's it's this
is such a simulating conversation to have,

592
00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:21.639
an important one to have. And
so now when we think about taking this

593
00:42:21.760 --> 00:42:27.239
next part of the conversation to thinking
about gender conversations in relation to helping people

594
00:42:27.280 --> 00:42:31.199
more meaningfully and productively connect with their
work, what's your perspective on are happier

595
00:42:31.199 --> 00:42:36.840
employers more productive employees more pan I
think yeah, I think. I think

596
00:42:36.840 --> 00:42:42.760
there's no question that a happier employee
is more productive. I mean they also

597
00:42:43.280 --> 00:42:47.039
like more happy and more productive people
see a different range of opportunity because you

598
00:42:47.079 --> 00:42:51.519
know, when you're happy, you're
less down by negative thoughts and the more

599
00:42:51.559 --> 00:42:54.159
invested you are in your work,
and that doesn't just bring about greater efficiency

600
00:42:54.239 --> 00:42:59.280
or productivity. It also leads to
clearer thinking and giving others a benefit of

601
00:42:59.280 --> 00:43:06.119
the doubt and better ideas and ultimately
faster progress because of that. You're reminding

602
00:43:06.159 --> 00:43:08.159
me one of the things that we
do in our formal when we're working with

603
00:43:08.199 --> 00:43:14.639
clients here around breakthrough thinking and transformation
organizations is just really suspending for a moment

604
00:43:14.679 --> 00:43:17.760
what we think or sure that we
know about something or someone right and really

605
00:43:17.800 --> 00:43:22.639
trying to listen with fresh ears what
that person is saying to us. And

606
00:43:22.960 --> 00:43:25.719
it takes a tremendous amount of effort
to do that and presence of mind,

607
00:43:25.719 --> 00:43:30.239
et cetera, et cetera. But
the payoffs invariably are so much better for

608
00:43:30.320 --> 00:43:34.760
relationships and results. They just it
just takes something to do that. Yeah,

609
00:43:34.800 --> 00:43:37.440
I think you're absolutely right. And
I also think where where that exact

610
00:43:37.480 --> 00:43:43.119
idea comes into play, especially today, is with the millennial generations, which

611
00:43:43.239 --> 00:43:45.320
I mean, obviously that's the conversation
for a different day, but so much

612
00:43:45.360 --> 00:43:51.760
has been said and written about the
millennials, But you know, I personally

613
00:43:51.840 --> 00:43:55.960
think I think that they are such
a unique generation with so many great characteristics

614
00:43:55.960 --> 00:44:00.760
that can really really transform the way
that work is, you know, across

615
00:44:00.840 --> 00:44:05.559
the board, but I think that
their needs and their desires are also very

616
00:44:05.559 --> 00:44:07.880
different. I mean, again totally
generalizing here, but you know, one

617
00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:13.119
of the biggest things that's often said
about that generation is that they really want

618
00:44:13.239 --> 00:44:15.079
to have a voice. They want
to be heard, they want to be

619
00:44:15.159 --> 00:44:20.880
listened to, right, And the
question is, can leadership, you know,

620
00:44:21.079 --> 00:44:23.079
take a beat to sort of,
like you said, like clear their

621
00:44:23.079 --> 00:44:28.719
biases, clear their like preconceptions of
how they view different people and different ideas,

622
00:44:29.119 --> 00:44:31.360
and listen to try to get new
ways of thinking. And I think,

623
00:44:31.400 --> 00:44:35.679
you know that's going to come down
to retaining these employees but also really

624
00:44:35.719 --> 00:44:40.280
seeing them thrive in these different companies
and industries. Yeah, okay, so

625
00:44:40.440 --> 00:44:44.199
you and are the same page on
millennials. Part of the reasons that I

626
00:44:44.679 --> 00:44:47.320
this one continuing to teach at SMU
is because I want to stay connected to

627
00:44:47.400 --> 00:44:52.519
the incoming generation of the workforce.
And really, if you look at the

628
00:44:52.599 --> 00:44:57.000
numbers, they won't be loan before
that generation comprises the majority of the workforce,

629
00:44:57.000 --> 00:45:01.639
so we better understand them because they're
absolutely pretty So I'm completely with you

630
00:45:01.719 --> 00:45:07.079
on that. Have you seen any
differences that were sort of unexpected to you

631
00:45:07.239 --> 00:45:12.039
or surprising, not unexpected. But
I'll tell you I just left and this

632
00:45:12.199 --> 00:45:15.519
is I think somewhat indicative. Again
not I can't. We can't generalize,

633
00:45:15.519 --> 00:45:19.920
as you said before, But I
just left a coaching conversation with a woman

634
00:45:19.960 --> 00:45:24.480
who's twenty eight and she is just
dynamic, Jamie. She's she's a mechanical

635
00:45:24.480 --> 00:45:29.440
engineer, and so she thinks and
she's got she loves structure, and she

636
00:45:29.519 --> 00:45:34.079
loves data analysis, and she likes
working and making arguments from data. She's

637
00:45:34.119 --> 00:45:37.760
but she's at the same time,
you know, extremely connected to the emotional

638
00:45:37.760 --> 00:45:42.199
realm of her world. And I
also understand strategy and things like that.

639
00:45:42.760 --> 00:45:45.679
And the other thing about her that
I think is very much rooted in her

640
00:45:45.840 --> 00:45:52.159
her generation is that she's she has
the multitasking, need for stimulation, need

641
00:45:52.199 --> 00:45:54.719
for challenges like off the chart for
her, and I do think that there

642
00:45:54.800 --> 00:45:59.079
is something that comes from her generation. Maybe it's because she was schooled on

643
00:45:59.480 --> 00:46:01.159
you know, iPhones, I don't
know, grew up with an iPhone or

644
00:46:01.199 --> 00:46:06.079
in your crib, I don't know, But I think there's something about that

645
00:46:06.159 --> 00:46:10.920
intensity and ability to think on those
different dimensions at the seemingly the same time.

646
00:46:12.079 --> 00:46:15.480
It also demand and want you know, some work life bones as well.

647
00:46:15.480 --> 00:46:19.840
At the same time, I think
there's something to that. Yeah,

648
00:46:19.920 --> 00:46:22.000
I agree, and I think there's
a lot of criticism that says, you

649
00:46:22.039 --> 00:46:27.519
know, the millennial generation is too
idealistic, they're not realistic, And you

650
00:46:27.519 --> 00:46:29.639
know, my comeback to that is
always just like why do they have to

651
00:46:29.719 --> 00:46:34.679
be mutually exclusive? Like why can't
you know, leaders actually want to be

652
00:46:34.800 --> 00:46:38.079
realistic in terms of what's required and
doing you know, multiple things that one

653
00:46:38.360 --> 00:46:42.039
at one time, so that they
recognize that, you know, everything that

654
00:46:42.039 --> 00:46:45.360
they work in is multifaceted, but
also want to have an impact, have

655
00:46:45.400 --> 00:46:50.039
a great personal life, like enjoy
their time on earth, you know,

656
00:46:50.159 --> 00:46:52.880
all across the board while really liking
their work. And I think once we

657
00:46:53.000 --> 00:46:58.559
find that combination, that's that's really
where it's just everything sort of goes into

658
00:46:58.599 --> 00:47:02.320
a new level. So I completely
agree, you know, along those lines,

659
00:47:02.320 --> 00:47:07.440
and coming kind of back to where
we rooted this conversation, you know,

660
00:47:07.480 --> 00:47:09.559
there's an argument to be made that
while the gender rebelance is obviously a

661
00:47:09.639 --> 00:47:13.599
challenge for women in the workplace,
for the most part, men seemuld think

662
00:47:13.599 --> 00:47:17.079
it's pretty okay. So where do
you think that plays into this conversation of

663
00:47:17.159 --> 00:47:23.480
possible disrupting things and kind of getting
us back in terms of progress of productivity.

664
00:47:23.880 --> 00:47:28.239
Yeah, so I've I've had this
conversation a couple of times actually with

665
00:47:28.280 --> 00:47:31.880
different people, including my husband a
long time ago. And I think I

666
00:47:31.960 --> 00:47:36.440
think the main question here is,
you know, even if women make up

667
00:47:36.480 --> 00:47:39.840
fifty percent of the population, business
in America seems to be thriving. Why

668
00:47:39.840 --> 00:47:45.239
should we change something if it's not
broken? Right for me, I guess

669
00:47:45.280 --> 00:47:49.119
the answer is, well, for
starters, I do think it's broken,

670
00:47:49.199 --> 00:47:52.039
but I think it has nothing to
do with equality. Like again, I'm

671
00:47:52.400 --> 00:47:55.079
all on board quality in other places, but I don't necessarily think that's a

672
00:47:55.119 --> 00:48:00.639
requirement in business. I think rather
we're missing like a tremendous opportunity here by

673
00:48:00.679 --> 00:48:06.320
excluding women in the professional arena.
And I don't think that that's just,

674
00:48:07.239 --> 00:48:09.719
you know, in one specific area. I do think it's across the board,

675
00:48:09.920 --> 00:48:15.679
and I think that there's real innovation
to happen with more diverse thinking.

676
00:48:15.320 --> 00:48:19.440
And that's where I think. I
think we need to catch up and make

677
00:48:19.480 --> 00:48:22.199
sure that we still have the game, I guess, and again to your

678
00:48:22.239 --> 00:48:24.480
point, all the more reason we
need to keep expanding the conversation. Nope,

679
00:48:24.559 --> 00:48:29.920
nope, yes, exactly, Please
weigh in listeners. Yes, Now

680
00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:32.599
another question comes to my mind.
Do you think that the gender conversation is

681
00:48:32.679 --> 00:48:39.039
more important for some industries versus others? That's a good question. So,

682
00:48:40.119 --> 00:48:43.840
I mean, I think it's important
for every industry. I really do.

683
00:48:44.519 --> 00:48:47.840
But I guess personally, I get
really excited when I think about an industry

684
00:48:47.880 --> 00:48:53.679
that is predominantly female or predominantly male
either way, and just start thinking about

685
00:48:53.719 --> 00:48:58.360
how different it could look if it
had a mixed perspective. So, you

686
00:48:58.360 --> 00:49:01.320
know, even like finance, health
care, even education, you know,

687
00:49:01.400 --> 00:49:07.039
I think each of those brings a
host of really tough and really important challenges

688
00:49:07.079 --> 00:49:12.079
that we were not even we haven't
even come close to solving yet. And

689
00:49:12.719 --> 00:49:15.800
I think, you know, adding
the different perspectives, especially of the mixed

690
00:49:15.880 --> 00:49:20.559
genders, could really, you know, provide a serious change that would be

691
00:49:20.719 --> 00:49:25.440
tremendous, just absolutely amazing and cross
the board. I just I just what

692
00:49:25.480 --> 00:49:30.639
I see in all of this conversation
is possibility. I see a popability for

693
00:49:30.239 --> 00:49:35.480
women to come more into their own, express more of themselves, and have

694
00:49:35.960 --> 00:49:37.880
maybe more of an impact if that's
what they want. And I see men

695
00:49:38.039 --> 00:49:42.719
being able to learn from women and
being able to not have to feel like

696
00:49:42.760 --> 00:49:45.079
they have to stuff their emotions,
if you know, in order to be

697
00:49:45.159 --> 00:49:47.920
respected, et cetera, et cetera. I just I see so much win

698
00:49:49.079 --> 00:49:53.000
on all angles here that I don't
know why we're not having more conversations about

699
00:49:53.000 --> 00:49:57.599
this. Yeah, I agree,
And I think again, I think it

700
00:49:57.679 --> 00:50:00.400
comes down to, like, you
know, women, I think are talking

701
00:50:00.400 --> 00:50:02.360
about it because they recognize that there's
something to be gained for them. And

702
00:50:02.400 --> 00:50:07.119
I think a lot of men are
not talking about it because they think the

703
00:50:07.159 --> 00:50:12.800
women are just sort of being whiny
or complaining or angry or whatnot. And

704
00:50:12.840 --> 00:50:15.000
I think that's where, you know, the conversation. I would love to

705
00:50:15.039 --> 00:50:20.599
see the conversation switch to, you
know, a more black and white conversation

706
00:50:20.800 --> 00:50:24.239
in terms of less about what's fair
and equal and let's make sure everybody's happy,

707
00:50:24.679 --> 00:50:29.840
and more about look at what could
happen. Look at the productivity that

708
00:50:29.880 --> 00:50:32.280
could change, Look at the innovation, Look at the progress that could actually

709
00:50:32.599 --> 00:50:37.639
really happen if we started getting different
perspectives, different points of view and using

710
00:50:37.719 --> 00:50:45.840
different tools to actually you know,
attack these real problems. Oh, there's

711
00:50:45.840 --> 00:50:47.280
so much more we could talk about. We're getting close to the end.

712
00:50:47.320 --> 00:50:51.880
Here are two more quick questions for
you. We started talking about this when

713
00:50:51.880 --> 00:50:54.400
we talked about the millennial generation,
Jamie, But do you think gender dynamics

714
00:50:54.400 --> 00:50:59.119
differ between the generations? And if
so, hell yeah, I mean I

715
00:50:59.159 --> 00:51:02.679
definitely do. Obviously, you know, that's through nobody's fault is obviously,

716
00:51:02.679 --> 00:51:07.239
I think we've sort of evolved in
a good way through the generations, which

717
00:51:07.280 --> 00:51:12.559
is great. I definitely have a
different perspective on this than like my grandfather's

718
00:51:12.599 --> 00:51:15.719
degree. But I think, again, I have so much hope with the

719
00:51:15.760 --> 00:51:20.599
millennial generation. Do you think what's
also interesting is there's been a lot of

720
00:51:20.639 --> 00:51:27.360
research done not just in the characteristics
of how millennials work and think and communicate

721
00:51:27.440 --> 00:51:31.159
and what they want, but also
in how they learn. So you know,

722
00:51:31.199 --> 00:51:34.440
and I actually talk about this a
little bit in my book that I

723
00:51:34.719 --> 00:51:38.119
think they have so much potential and
I think the only thing that's really standing

724
00:51:38.159 --> 00:51:43.679
in the way of these millennials becoming
these incredible leaders are you know, the

725
00:51:43.760 --> 00:51:46.159
ideas, having the ideas, and
then really the leaders in front of them

726
00:51:46.239 --> 00:51:52.239
taking the time to teach them and
support them. And if you look at

727
00:51:52.360 --> 00:51:55.239
if you dig more into that,
you know, people respond to different types

728
00:51:55.239 --> 00:51:59.039
of leadership. We all do,
right, not everyone who's going to respond

729
00:51:59.039 --> 00:52:01.360
to the same type of leader,
and that's totally natural. But by and

730
00:52:01.440 --> 00:52:07.159
large, a lot of the millennials
seem to respond to a more transformational type

731
00:52:07.159 --> 00:52:12.679
of leadership, which is great,
which is amazing, and I think,

732
00:52:13.000 --> 00:52:16.960
you know, coincidentally, women have
a lot of characteristics that make them fantastic

733
00:52:17.000 --> 00:52:23.519
transformational leaders where they're connecting sort of
goals and purpose with recognition and support,

734
00:52:24.159 --> 00:52:28.119
and they really thrive in that environment. And so I think it's even more

735
00:52:28.119 --> 00:52:30.960
critical than ever that we get the
right leadership models and a variety of different

736
00:52:31.039 --> 00:52:37.719
leadership models working with the millennial generation. Again, we have a wholder show

737
00:52:37.760 --> 00:52:42.599
about that. So all right,
well we're coming to a close here in

738
00:52:42.679 --> 00:52:45.559
about a minute, Jamie, what
would you like to leave our listeners with

739
00:52:45.639 --> 00:52:52.159
today, Because the main thing that
I would say is that I would encourage

740
00:52:52.159 --> 00:52:59.000
people, men and women to stop
trying to dismiss or hide the tender differences,

741
00:52:59.360 --> 00:53:02.320
especially the underdominated strengths at work.
So and again this goes for both

742
00:53:02.320 --> 00:53:06.400
men and women, because again I
do think we're equal, but I don't

743
00:53:06.440 --> 00:53:09.840
think that we're at all the same, And for current and future leaders,

744
00:53:10.000 --> 00:53:17.440
I think those differences should be celebrated
and leveraged because complimentary styles are always more

745
00:53:17.480 --> 00:53:22.440
advantageous than the same thing repeated over
and over again. So I guess my

746
00:53:22.920 --> 00:53:27.199
biggest piece of advice would to everybody
would be just to use your authenticity and

747
00:53:27.239 --> 00:53:31.679
originality to your advantage. And I
think that most people see successful. It's

748
00:53:31.679 --> 00:53:35.159
funny that you said that when you
were talking, the ward that kept screaming

749
00:53:35.199 --> 00:53:38.079
out at me was authenticity. So
amazing way to finish the show, Jamie,

750
00:53:38.159 --> 00:53:42.159
thank you so very much for joining
us on Thrilled that you cross paths

751
00:53:42.199 --> 00:53:45.239
with me, and thank you for
showing your passion. Yeah, fantastic,

752
00:53:46.480 --> 00:53:50.199
So listener. If you want to
learn more about Jamie and the work she

753
00:53:50.239 --> 00:53:52.920
does, visit her website. It's, as you might guess, expand the

754
00:53:53.039 --> 00:54:00.760
convot dot com. Once again,
it's expand the convo ceonvo dot com.

755
00:54:00.320 --> 00:54:02.960
Join us next week when we talk
with Brett Randall, who is the owner

756
00:54:02.960 --> 00:54:07.079
of Soloman's Barbecue. We'll talk about
his entry in preparation into the restaurant business,

757
00:54:07.280 --> 00:54:12.000
how and his team have created a
purposeful culture and how he exercises a

758
00:54:12.000 --> 00:54:15.440
particular stance on leadership in business.
See you next week. You remember that

759
00:54:15.440 --> 00:54:17.079
work is at least one third of
our life, so let's work on purpose.

760
00:54:23.880 --> 00:54:28.360
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to tune into Working

761
00:54:28.400 --> 00:54:32.280
on Purpose, featuring your host Alis
Cortes, every Wednesday at six pm Eastern

762
00:54:32.320 --> 00:54:37.880
Time three pm Pacific Time on the
Voice America Empowerment Channel. This week,

763
00:54:37.119 --> 00:54:39.199
find your life's purpose at work.