Making the Most of Work Throughout Our Lives

WEBVTT

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There are some people that make their
work just another thing they have to do,

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and there are those that make their
work something that they want to do.

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Welcome to Working on Purpose with your
host, Elise Cortes. In our

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program, we provide guidance and inspiration
from those people who have found deeper meaning

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and personal connection to their work life. It's beyond nine to five. It's

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working on purpose. Now Here is
your host, Elise Cortes. I'm your

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host at Last Cortes, joining you
from Denver, Colorado today as I'm doing

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some consulting out here. This program
is all about helping people more mute and

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productively connect with their work and equipping
leaders and organizations being the same for their

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employees. So I bring them guests
to a particular perspective or experience that I

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think contributes to or expanse this conversation. And as a management consultant and social

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scientist, I draw on the meeting
work research I've been doing over the last

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fifteen years, as well as my
own consulting, speaking and work developing work

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courses across the globe. I'll get
to my program and justin moll Development and

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Enjoy. Last week, if you
missed the show live, you can always

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catch it be recorded podcast. We
were on the air with Brian Amorio,

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who is an entrepreneur currently serving as
the founder and CEO of Proposa, a

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best in class SaaS solution for building
stunningly beautiful proposals in half the time.

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We talked about his journey as an
entrepreneur, starting his first company at age

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twenty four now what he's learned along
the way that fortified him as a business

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owner. Great conversation, very inspiring. With us this week is Mac Pritchard,

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the founder and publisher of max List, an online community for people looking

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for rewarding, creative and meaningful work. He is the author of Land Your

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Dream Job Anywhere and host the weeklyod
podcast Find Your Dream Job. We'll be

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talking about the ways he helps the
unique set of job seekers in today's marketplace

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get some advice on networking and interviewing, and also hear his experience in helping

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people change careers when they're lost or
want to discover their purpose. He joins

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us today from Portland, Oregon,
one of my favorite cities I lived in

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for years. Mac. Welcome to
Working on Purpose. Well, thank you

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for having me on the show.
I'm really looking forward to our conversation.

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I am too, and you know
I'm a big fan of your work and

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I'm so happy to get to share
you with our listeners across the globe.

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Mac, I think that as well
as you know, work is really really

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important to me. It's a big
way we spend our lives, and I

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really appreciate the work that you do
to help others more immediately connect with it.

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So I want to. I want
to see what kind of wisdom we

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can extract from you. In about
an hour, Are you ready, I'm

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ready, and of course we're both
graduates of the University of Iowa, so

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we're very bright people, right,
well people, very bright people, the

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Harvard of the Midwest. I love
that. I'm so going to steal that.

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Thank you. Oh my goodness.
Well, since we've graduated, you've

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obviously made a beautiful career for yourself, and you've established yourself as a career

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expert. And I'm interested, of
course, in the beginnings, how you

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got started in this space and what
it is that you love about staying in

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the space of helping so many people
find their way in the world of work.

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Well, I have been blessed to
have a very career, but I

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want to be candid. Yeah,
I've had my ups and downs, and

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I'd learned about job hunting and came
to find myself giving people advice about their

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careers because I'd learned the lessons the
hard way. I've been unemployed twice,

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and I know what it's like to
cash that unemployment check. I did it

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last unemployment check. Rather, I
did it once and I came close with

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than one check of doing it another
time. And those experiences taught me really

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two important lessons. One was that
I needed to master job hunting as a

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skill, and the second lesson was
that the best jobs are filled by word

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of mouth. So our challenge when
we're out there looking for work is we've

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got to grow and tap into our
networks. And even when we're not looking

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for work, we've got to think
about our networks and how we can be

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of service to others. And when
you do that, great opportunities result.

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And for my career, I've been
in the workplace now for forty years.

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When I got out of the University
of Iowa, I wanted to do three

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things. I wanted to work on
election campaigns, I wanted to write for

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a living, and I wanted to
do human rights advocacy in Latin American.

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I've been able to do all three, but again, it hasn't been a

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forty five degree angle. There have
been lots of valleys along the way as

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well as some peaks. You know, I really appreciate that math because I

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think for a lot of listeners,
when they see someone who's as accomplished as

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you are, they get intimidated and
think, you know, gosh, I

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can't possibly you know, approximate that
or ever go in that direction. And

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when you let us know that you've
had your share of bruisist and scripes along

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the way, like I certainly have
to. It just makes you more accessible.

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So I really appreciate you starting with
that. That's just gorgeous. Thank

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you, You're welcome. And again, the gift that I got from those

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hard experiences and nobody likes to come
home and tell their spouse they've lost their

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job is I did learn. I
did get serious about learning for work,

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looking for work rather, and that
has served me so well in my career.

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And the people I see who thrive
and enjoy professional success learn that lesson

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too. A beautiful well, there's
nothing like I really see this mac form

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myself, is that there's something about
whatever it is that we need or want

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desperiny to learn for ourselves that gives
us a sense of purpose to serve other

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people. I've seen that born out
time and time again, and it's true

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for me too. It is and
I think people everybody hungers for a purpose

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in their work. And that doesn't
mean that you have to go overseas and

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work in a refugee camp or in
a shelter helping people who are almost those

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are important jobs, and I appreciate
the people who are called to do that

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work. But we can find a
purpose and meaning in any job. There's

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value in dignity that comes with work, and I think the people who recognize

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that and make that part of their
work day get an extra pleasure out of

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their work that others often miss.
I completely agree with that, Mac,

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and it was boring out in my
research. I won't go into that now

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because I want to focus on you
and your message, but completely know that

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we as human being construe meaning,
and we could put meaning into everything and

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everything, and we do so.
Yes, agreed. Let me ask you

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this question that's been perplexing me.
Mac. It's just I just really am

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scratching my head on this, and
I'd like to know from your perspective,

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because you're in the trenches with people
in a job market that supposedly is three

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point eight percent unemployment. That just
is such a remarkably low number. It

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seems like it still takes people a
good while to actually land a job.

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And so I'm wondering, is this
a myth that I've created in my own

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mind? If I'm am I reading
or wrong newspapers? What's so about how

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long it takes these days to find
work. Well. I think there are

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some occupations, particularly service or entry
level positions, that you can get on

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the same day or the next day
after filling out an application for professional jobs.

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Even in an unemployment rate this low, it can take two, three

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or even more months for a position
to get filled. And I think what's

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happening here is most managers follow that
old rule, I'm sure you're familiar with

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it, which is higher, low, fire fast. And the reasoning behind

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that is hiring is expensive and you
want to get it right, and because

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if you don't get it right,
it often takes you three to six months

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to figure out if you've made a
mistake as a manager, and nobody likes

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that, neither the manager nor the
person you eventually might let go and then

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you got to start all over again. So, even in a job market

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like this, we are seeing employers
think carefully before they make offers to candidates.

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And I have to imagine that the
more senior you are, the longer

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it takes. Well think about the
logistics that are involved. You post an

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ad, you probably allow two to
three weeks for people to respond. It

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takes you another two to three weeks
to sort through the resumes, perhaps do

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the first round of phone interviews,
and then you might begin the personal interviews,

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and before you know it, you're
in month three and before perhaps you're

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ready to make an offer. And
if you're looking for people for positions that

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you know that are particularly sensitive,
you might invest more time in it.

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And you know, along the way, in addition to public postings, managers

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who are doing hiring are also tapping
their own personal networks and sending out emails

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asking for recommendations from colleagues. And
I know we're going to talk more about

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that, but that's a big part
of how the so called hidden job market

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works. Okay, well, let's
move a little bit now into some of

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the some of the markets that you
serve, some of the people that you

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serve, Mac, I'm just amazed
and blown away by the swath of people

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that you serve. So near and
dear to my heart are millennials, because

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in part I serve as an adjunct
professor at the Southern Methodist University here in

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Dallas. I love working with that, with that new group of hungry people

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coming into the workforce, but I
like to keep the show as actionable for

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people pointers they walk away with stuff
they can use immediately. So what are

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some of the key players you impart
to help this particular group find their first

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job. I think there are three
important points millennials need to keep in mind,

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particularly when they're coming right out of
college, but also in the early

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years of their career. When you're
doing a job search, and this is

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true no matter what your age,
you got to have a goal. I

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meet so many younger jobs seekers who
when I say, well, what are

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you looking for? What kind of
position do you want? The answer is

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often well, I'm keeping my options
open or I'm not sure, And I

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get it. It's hard to make
choices, but unless you're specific about what

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you want, you're going to end
up applying everywhere and exhaust yourself in the

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process. You also make it difficult
for people to help you, and people

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do want to help. Besides having
a goal, I think the second most

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important point for millennials is recognize that
your first job doesn't have to be a

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dream job. You need to get
started. You're likely going to be in

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the workplace for thirty or forty years, and that means you're probably going to

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have eight to ten or maybe even
a dozen different positions to get the dream

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job. There might be a couple
steps you have to take first professionally in

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your early and mid twenties to land
that position. Identify what that job is,

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and then use old fashioned reverse mapping
to figure out how you need to

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get there, what steps you have
to take, either educational credentials or internships

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or volunteer experiences. But don't be
disappointed. If your first job out of

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college is a good entry level position
in your field, it's a starter position.

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And again I want to underscore the
importance of knowing where you want to

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go. You want that position to
support the journey you want to take in

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your career. The third thing is, I would say to millennials, so

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kind of master job hunting as a
skill early, not by trial and error,

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not because you've been unemployed for seven
or eight months, as happened to

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me and happens to so many other
people. Invest the time to go in

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your career services office at your university, and if you graduated a year or

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two ago, go back. Most
colleges are happy to serve grads and happy

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to connect you with people in their
community and among their alumni. The sooner

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you learn how to look for work
and do career planning. Well, the

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more successful you're going to be in
your career. It's a lesson you got

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to learn. Why not learn it
in your early twenties when you're starting out,

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and then you'll benefit the most from
it, agreed. I tell my

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students that work is enormous socialization opportunity, and the better sooner they can socialize

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themselves into the marketplace through their connections. And as you say to alumni the

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school, the better off they'll be
to other prospective employers. And I find

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that a lot of the younger people
are nervous about that aspect. I can

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understand it's new and unfamiliar, and
it can be intimidating. So I think

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it's important to remember that generally people
want to be helpful, and the more

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specific, again you are about what
you need help with and what your challenges

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are, the more helpful people can
be to you. Right, Well,

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let's hit this next question and then
we'll take a quick break here. I

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want to talk about those midlife professionals
who are considering you're often times choose to

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start a whole new career. They
are reinventing themselves. They've had enough of

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where where they're at, and they're
like, I'm ready to move on.

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What advice or points can you share
here with us to help those people.

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I think it's important to do your
homework. So sometimes an opportunity if you've

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never had the experience of doing the
work, can sound pretty glamorous. And

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before you make that leap and either
try to move into a new sector or

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perhaps invest in a small business or
go to a new part of the country,

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find out what that work is really
like. And the best way to

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do it is to talk to people
who are either doing it, doing the

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career you want to move into,
or have made a switch like you want

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to do because you don't want to
you want to be clear about what's involved

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and what it's going to take to
be successful. This is where informational interviews

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can be really helpful. And again, if you know exactly what you want

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to do, find people who done
it, spend time talking to them about

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how they made that switch, what
challenges they faced, what objections they had

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to overcome it they were when they
sat down with hiring managers who were considering

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their applications, how did they overcome
those objections? And I think you want

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to do that homework up front.
You don't want to use your job search

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process when you're trying to change sectors
as a kind of research project. Yes,

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you should be asking lots of questions
along the way, but get the

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fundamentals right from the start, because
you don't want to invest a lot of

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time applying for positions in a news
sector and discover that's really not a good

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fit. Agreed, agreed. All
right, Well, let's grab a quick

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break here. There's more I want
to ask about some many of the other

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groups that you serve, but let's
grab our first break. I'm Alice Cortet's

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on air of Picus, who is
the founder and publisher of maxist, an

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online community for people looking for rewarding, creative and needing to work. Is

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the author of Land Your Dream Job
Anywhere, and host of a good podcast,

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Find Your Dream Job. You can
access a preachatter of the book by

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visiting macmaxlist dot org, forward slash
Working on Purpose Again. That's max List,

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M A C S l I s
T dot org forward slash Working on

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Purpose who joins his na from Portland, Oregon. After Gray, we'll hear

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more about a few more of those
segments that he serves and then get into

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networking and interviewing. Stay with us, We'll be right back. Alis Cortez

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is a speaker and engagement and development
catalyst. She designs and delivers professional development,

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leadership and engagement workshops and can bring
her expertise to your organization. She

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will help ignite meaningful development within your
workforce that will increase employee engagement, performance

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and retention. To learn more or
to invite Elise to speak to your organization,

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please visit her at WAW dot Elise
Coortes dot com. She would welcome

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the opportunity to help get your employees
working on purpose. This is working on

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purpose with Elise Cortes. To reach
our program today, send an email to

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a lease A l S at Aleasecortes
dot com. Now back to working on

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purpose. My guest is Mac Richard, who is the founder of publisher of

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Marxist and online Maybe People be ct
It and meaningful work. A leading career

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expert, Mac helps people who are
looking for a job during all of life's

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transitions, manials getting a first job, midlight professional switching sectors, parents getting

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back to work after raising the family, or baby boomers who want to change

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Careers is proud to own two registered
Becorp companies who choose the power of markets

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to solve social environmental problems. We've
been talking to you about some of the

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audiences that you serves. Will continue
that conversation. I'm your host Elis Cortes,

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all right, So Mac, before
we broke, I wanted to ask

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you a little bit more about some
of the people that you serve career wise

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who maybe have left the workforce to
raise families and maybe it's spent five years,

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maybe spend ten years. How do
you help those people? Well,

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the first question people in those circumstances
off in face is do they want to

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go back to their old job or
their former field. And it's an important

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question to ask yourself. It's not
uncommon, as we talked about before the

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break, for people to want to
make career changes after ten or fifteen years

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in the workforce. So the way
to again settle that question is be clear

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about what you want to do next
and invest the time and goal setting.

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And particularly if you've been out of
the workforce for five or ten years,

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you might want to step back and
do some self assessment and as some reflection

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before you go out and begin your
search, because if you're going to make

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a career pivot, that's a different
job search strategy than one where you're looking

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for a position in the field that
you left when you took the break.

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I think that's true for both men
and women. For women, there are

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a couple of special challenges. You
know, after a break, often,

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whatever your gender, your professional network
might not be as strong as it was

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before you took time away. But
you need to recognize the value of the

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new networks that you might have created
while you were working in the home.

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And especially for women, often this
takes the form of service on community boards,

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or involvement in schools or faith based
groups, or connections with other parents.

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You know, mommy groups can be
very powerful force. So those are

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things to think about. Neat beautiful
advice. I really appreciate that, and

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I think a lot of the women
out there that are in transition will certainly

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appreciate that. I've seen several women
take that was very skills mack and transition

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them the community service, the leadership, the fundraising, and turn them into

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very successful jobs, I mean really
successful jobs. So that's really great to

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presence for our parents out there that
are considering going back. What about the

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baby boomers who lose their job,
maybe maybe not by choice or maybe by

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choice. What about them? Well, baby boomers either they base a special

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challenge. Agism is real. Research
shows it's a fact, and it's illegal.

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You could sue, but chances are
you would invest a lot of time

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and energy and lawsuits and that would
be better well served focusing on your job

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search. So I think when boomers
are either looking for their next position or

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they've lost a job and they're looking
for something new, they got to think

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about the concerns that hiring managers have
about uh this generation, and and I'm

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a member of it, I think
there are a lot of misconceptions out there

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about boomers. You know that they
have too much experience, They're going to

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have high salary expectations and have extra
healthcare costs, and they might be inflexible.

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They're going to be uncomfortable working for
a younger supervisor. Maybe they're manager

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is concerned that someone is just looking
for a place to coast for a couple

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of years until Medicare and Social Security
kicks in. So how do you how

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do you deal with that? Nobody
is ever going to tell you that,

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uh, so, you need to
consider those objections and those misconceptions and make

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sure that your application materials and your
presentations during interviews and your contacts with the

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employer addresses those And you know,
you need to make sure sure that you

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demonstrate that your lifelong learner, that
you like new challenges, that you've had

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experience working for supervisors of different ages, that if you're looking for a position

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that involves a pay cut, you
need to be clear about why you're excited

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about that opportunity and the pay cut
doesn't bother you. And you can do

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this again in your interviews, your
application materials, cover letters, and the

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like beautiful, very beautiful. And
I do agree with you that the agism

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I didn't know about the resource,
but I certainly do anecdotally believe that it's

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very real based in the conversations I
have with people. So appreciate just surfacing

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that it's so so just deal with
it. Also, for baby boomers,

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in addition to dealing with those misconceptions, they especially need to invest in looking

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for what are often called the hidden
jobs, the ones that are filled by

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word of mouth, because human connection
is so powerful a lease and if you

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can get in front of a hiring
manager and make your case. You've got

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to be persuasive if you're an effective
presenter, no matter what your age,

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but especially I think for older job
seekers. Well, let's talk about that

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hidden job market. Max. So
some of the people who are listening to

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this might be going, what do
you mean there's a hidden job market?

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Or who I thought that existed?
So first, what do you mean by

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that term hidden job mark market?
Well, these are the positions that are

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never posted. They don't appear on
job boards or in old fashioned newspaper ads,

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and they're filled by word of mouth. And I you know, we

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talked a little bit about max List, the company I run. It's a

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website that serves people in the Pacific
Northwest, and we have a job board.

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We publish about five hundred positions a
month, and I'm very proud of

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the value we provide in that board. And I hear from job seekers all

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the time how much they appreciate those
listings, always concerned when they tell me

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they're spending one hundred percent of their
time looking at job boards like mine,

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because there are estimates out there that
as many as eighty percent of all jobs

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are filled by word of mouth.
Now, maybe the number is fifty percent

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or sixty or seventy, whatever the
figure. You need to look at how

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you spend your time. And too
many job seekers are spending their days one

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hundred percent of their search looking at
listings online, applying online, and they

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need to step away from the computer
and invest in things like informational interviews,

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networking, and volunteering in their field
that are going to help them grow their

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professional networks and have conversations with people
who are filling those jobs that are filled

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by word of mouth. You know, Mac, you're just reminding me for

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you and I got on the air
here to have this conversation. I was

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talking with a girlfriend of mine and
her husband in schooled as a mechanical engineer

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and then has spent years in innovation
creativity space, and was literally just having

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a conversation with somebody else in their
community in the financial services space, and

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they were talking about how they were
developing business and such, and this guy

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being this guy, runs up with
this some research, comes back and goes,

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you know what, I think I
know what's going on here. I

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think I know what the issue is
for you guys. And they turned around

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back and said guess what we need
to hire you. We like how you

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think that's the kind of thinking we
need here. We didn't, We weren't

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planning on hiring, but what do
you think? And he's been on board

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now for a couple of months and
having a ball perfect example of well,

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it's not even a hidden job market. It wasn't even He created his own

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position by having a conversation with someone
and then taking his past experience and the

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way of thinking thinking about it and
applying it in a whole different space.

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That adds a whole new range of
value. And I think, I know

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you've done a lot of hiring in
your career, and I know you have

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many listeners who have too. Think
about the times that we're filling a position

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in our team or our company.
We all take that posting and we send

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it to a few people, don't
we at Lease and we say do you

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know of anybody who's good? Can
you send good candidates my way? And

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if somebody responds and says you should
talk to Mary or have you checked in

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with John? And if Mary sends
in a resume, You're probably going to

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walk that to the HR person and
say we I think we should take a

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look at this application. Absolutely absolutely, And so how the hidden job market

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works it's through connections and they're often
the weakest of ties. But the principle

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that's driving it is this. People
hire people they know, or they hire

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people who are recommended to people by
people they trust. Now, getting someone

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to walk your resume to the HR
manager isn't going to get you the job,

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but it probably will get your resume
a long, hard look and main

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lead to a phone screener. There
are other things that you can do to

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increase the odds of actually getting an
interview, and I know we're going to

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talk about those two. Well,
let's talk about networking next, because that

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certainly strikes me. You know,
when you talk about getting yourself into a

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place where somebody would actually refer you, that means that somewhere there's been some

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kind of a conversation where you're even
present on their radar. And so I

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know that one of your famous things
is you've got some tips about helping it

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and techniques to help people get more
comfortable with networking. As we talked about

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ready, my students, the young
ones that are just coming into the marketplace

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are horrified by that. Sometimes they
come back and they say, oh my

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gosh, they call me doctor C. Doctor C. That was so fun.

359
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I thought I was going to be
terrible at it, but I made

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some new friends. I'm like,
I know, isn't it beautiful? So

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what can you tell us about making
networking more enjoyable or productive? Well,

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first of all, successful networking isn't
the way we probably imagine it, which

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is the function room at the holiday
n at the airport, and we've all

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been in that room and there's always
somebody walking around collecting business cards and they

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think that success is the number of
cards they take home that night. And

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that's not how effective networking works.
It's about relationships and it's a long game.

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But you can go to an event
in your field and maybe it's a

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happy hour, maybe it's a conference, maybe it's the monthly lunch program,

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and you need to walk in the
room with some kind of goal. Maybe

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you want to have meet one or
two new people. Maybe you know that

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your dream is to work at Nike, with your big employer out here in

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Oregon, and the MC of that
month's lunch program works at Nike, and

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so you have an opportunity to go
up and chat with that person and begin

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to connect and build a relationship with
them because one day you might want to

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work in that company, or indeed
that is your goal. So if you

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walk into that room focusing on relationships
and knowing who you want to connect with,

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or just being open to engaging conversations
with people in your field, that

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00:29:11.480 --> 00:29:19.039
could be a very successful networking event. And it takes time to build those

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00:29:19.119 --> 00:29:25.319
ties, but it will pay dividends
for years to come. I think that

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00:29:25.480 --> 00:29:29.960
is incredibly sage advice going in looking
for relationships, not a job or not

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00:29:30.079 --> 00:29:33.480
a connection to get you something.
I think that's gorgeous. Mac. Yeah,

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00:29:33.880 --> 00:29:37.079
I do encourage people. If there
is a company where you want to

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work, and you have through your
homework identified that the leaders of that company

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00:29:45.599 --> 00:29:48.039
are involved in a professional association or
serve on the board of that group,

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00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:52.400
and you want to build a genuine
relationship with them, don't be shy about

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00:29:52.680 --> 00:29:59.960
going to those events and introducing yourself
and looking for ways that you can build

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00:30:00.039 --> 00:30:04.039
that relationship. Maybe it's by offering
go do a project for the association,

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00:30:04.319 --> 00:30:10.960
or maybe put together the following month's
launch program. When you are of service

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to others like that, you show
them what you can do, and you're

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00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:21.559
giving without any expectation of getting in
return, and you're building a tie and

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00:30:21.799 --> 00:30:26.279
people are going to think of you
and be not only grateful for the work

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00:30:26.359 --> 00:30:30.799
that you've done for that group,
but when they're also going to be happy

393
00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:34.960
to speak with you if you want
to get their insights about your job search

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00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:41.119
or their advice about opportunities in the
field. And it begins with service,

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00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:47.640
but it can help your career along
the way. I love that. I

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00:30:47.720 --> 00:30:51.319
do love the idea of offering service. And what I often tell my students

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00:30:51.440 --> 00:30:56.400
is even to open the conversation is
to simply especially if they're more introverted and

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00:30:56.559 --> 00:31:00.920
uncomfortable talking with new people, is
to employ ever really lovely dose of curiosity,

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00:31:02.319 --> 00:31:04.079
go into the conversation curious who are
you, what are you up to?

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00:31:04.839 --> 00:31:08.279
What do you yourself into in life? And I feel like if you

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00:31:08.359 --> 00:31:11.920
can do, if you can come
with the conversation to even start from the

402
00:31:11.960 --> 00:31:15.599
vantage point of being curious about who
you're talking with, that's it's a great

403
00:31:15.640 --> 00:31:18.519
way to start. And then offering
that service. I think that that's a

404
00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:22.519
pretty pretty good one two punch.
I think, yeah, that's great.

405
00:31:22.680 --> 00:31:27.240
If I here offering about asking about
others because candidly, and I say this

406
00:31:27.319 --> 00:31:33.839
respectfully, people love to talk about
themselves and most people are uncomfortable or a

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00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:38.799
little Ailit ease a networking events.
And so if you've come prepared with a

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00:31:38.880 --> 00:31:44.920
few general questions, just ice breakers, you know, tell me about yourself.

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00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:47.799
What brought you here tonight? How
long have you been involved in the

410
00:31:47.839 --> 00:31:51.960
association? Is this your first time
at the conference? People will? It

411
00:31:52.039 --> 00:31:56.200
puts people at the ease, It
makes them feel comfortable, and it allows

412
00:31:56.240 --> 00:32:01.480
a conversation to begin. And I
would say networking too. And we've touched

413
00:32:01.519 --> 00:32:08.039
on this in discussing service. It's
not not all about asking others for help.

414
00:32:08.119 --> 00:32:13.000
It's also about giving and being of
service to others too. I really

415
00:32:13.039 --> 00:32:15.680
appreciate that. Let's for this time
being here, let's take our last break

416
00:32:15.720 --> 00:32:19.519
here, Mac, I'm Alice Kurtz
as your host. We've on the air

417
00:32:19.559 --> 00:32:22.000
with Mac Pritchard, who is the
founder and publisher of Maxist, an online

418
00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:27.400
community for people looking for rewarding,
creative and meaningful work. He's the author

419
00:32:27.400 --> 00:32:30.000
of Land Your Dream Job Anywhere and
host a weekly podcast, Find Your Dream

420
00:32:30.079 --> 00:32:36.039
Job. You can access a free
chapter of this book by visiting maxlist dot

421
00:32:36.200 --> 00:32:39.279
org forward slash Working on Purpose.
So it's m A C S L I

422
00:32:39.559 --> 00:32:45.160
s T dot org forward slash Working
on Purpose. MAC joined us today from

423
00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:47.519
Portland, Oregon. After the break, we will talk about the interviewing that

424
00:32:47.599 --> 00:32:52.039
we've mentioned before in some more aspects
of working on Purpose. Stay with us,

425
00:32:52.119 --> 00:33:09.480
we'll be right back. Alise Cortes
is a speaker and engagement and development

426
00:33:09.599 --> 00:33:15.279
catalyst. She designs and delivers professional
development, leadership and engagement workshops and can

427
00:33:15.319 --> 00:33:21.119
bring her expertise to your organization.
She will help ignite meaningful development within your

428
00:33:21.200 --> 00:33:25.319
workforce that will increase employee engagement,
performance and retention. To learn more or

429
00:33:25.400 --> 00:33:30.039
to invite Elise to speak to your
organization, please visit her at www dot

430
00:33:30.200 --> 00:33:36.079
Elise Coortes dot com. She would
welcome the opportunity to help get your employees

431
00:33:36.400 --> 00:33:46.640
working on purpose. This is working
on Purpose with Elise Cortes. To reach

432
00:33:46.680 --> 00:33:52.920
our program today, send an email
to a lease Alise at Alisecortes dot com.

433
00:33:53.680 --> 00:34:00.079
Now back to working on Purpose.
My august is Max Richard, the

434
00:34:00.160 --> 00:34:05.000
founder and publisher of Maxist and Online
creata reporting, creative and needing for a

435
00:34:05.079 --> 00:34:07.280
leading career expert Mac helps people who
are looking for a job during all of

436
00:34:07.480 --> 00:34:13.639
life transitions, Millennials getting a first
job, midlife professional switching sectors, parents

437
00:34:13.719 --> 00:34:16.320
getting back to work after raising a
family, or boomers who want to change

438
00:34:16.360 --> 00:34:21.119
careers. Is proud to own two
registered be Core companies, which use the

439
00:34:21.159 --> 00:34:23.719
power of markets to solve social and
environmental problems. I'm your host, Alice

440
00:34:23.760 --> 00:34:27.920
Cortes. So for this last segment
here, Mac, I want to get

441
00:34:27.960 --> 00:34:30.719
it into two things. One is
the art of interviewing and then two really

442
00:34:30.800 --> 00:34:35.800
getting in some of the things that
really get to purpose interviewing. Yes,

443
00:34:36.519 --> 00:34:40.639
I don't know too many people who
don't get nervous about interviews. So talk

444
00:34:40.679 --> 00:34:44.840
to us about that art. The
section that you talk about on your side,

445
00:34:44.880 --> 00:34:47.199
that both how to nail a job
interview would be really useful to hear

446
00:34:47.280 --> 00:34:52.119
right about now for some people listening, Well, first of all, don't

447
00:34:52.199 --> 00:34:57.280
wing it. And it's shocking to
me how many people walk into an interview

448
00:34:57.440 --> 00:35:01.880
room unprepared. And I think it
upends in large part because people are nervous

449
00:35:02.159 --> 00:35:07.159
and they're not sure how to prepare. And the good news is there are

450
00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:09.719
lots of books out there, and
again you can go to your college career

451
00:35:09.800 --> 00:35:15.960
services office or a local employment department
and get advice about how to prepare for

452
00:35:16.039 --> 00:35:21.519
an interview. I think a couple
of principles to keep in mind as you

453
00:35:21.639 --> 00:35:27.840
prepare. Employers hire problem solvers,
and that means you need to know the

454
00:35:27.920 --> 00:35:30.920
employer's problems and challenges, and you've
got to show how you can solve them.

455
00:35:31.880 --> 00:35:36.199
You're in that room because you've got
the qualifications, your credentials are good.

456
00:35:37.199 --> 00:35:40.400
Now you're competing probably with three to
five other people, and you've got

457
00:35:40.559 --> 00:35:45.440
to stand out. You've got to
draw the employer out about their challenges and

458
00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:51.920
share your own ideas and experiences that
show how you can help make that person's

459
00:35:51.960 --> 00:35:54.599
life easier. So to do that, you've got to do basic research.

460
00:35:55.000 --> 00:35:59.400
You know, look at the company
website, check the LinkedIn profiles of the

461
00:35:59.480 --> 00:36:01.639
interviewers. It's okay to ask when
the interview is scheduled, who you're going

462
00:36:01.719 --> 00:36:04.760
to be meeting with, who's going
to be in the room, the names

463
00:36:06.320 --> 00:36:09.639
you check out that firm online,
spend you know, half half an hour

464
00:36:09.679 --> 00:36:15.280
an hour on just basic research.
You'll want to find out either through online

465
00:36:15.360 --> 00:36:21.280
research or through contacts people who know
that company about again. The challenges the

466
00:36:21.320 --> 00:36:25.559
company faces, and you can find
those contacts by looking on LinkedIn and see

467
00:36:25.719 --> 00:36:30.440
who you might be connected to inside
that firm. That can be helpful too

468
00:36:30.880 --> 00:36:36.719
in references later if there are people
who know about your work. So after

469
00:36:36.800 --> 00:36:39.039
you do your research, you you
got to have a strategy. Focus on

470
00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:45.320
the employer's problems, think about what
you have to offer, and then prepare

471
00:36:45.400 --> 00:36:47.239
for the common questions you're going to
get. And these are easy to find

472
00:36:47.360 --> 00:36:52.400
just google. You know ten most
common questions and interviews, and they're basic

473
00:36:52.480 --> 00:36:54.679
things like why do you want the
job, why are you leaving your current

474
00:36:54.760 --> 00:36:59.039
position? What do you hope to
where do you hope to be in five

475
00:36:59.159 --> 00:37:02.639
years. Practice your answers to these
things, be ready to answer them.

476
00:37:02.679 --> 00:37:06.559
You probably won't be asked all of
them, but you want to be ready.

477
00:37:07.079 --> 00:37:10.960
You also need to have your own
set of questions about the company and

478
00:37:12.039 --> 00:37:16.159
the job, and again they should
come back to the challenges and the results

479
00:37:16.760 --> 00:37:22.280
that the employer hopes this person is
going to produce. Here's my favorite interview

480
00:37:22.360 --> 00:37:28.519
question of all time. At least
when you have a moment after you've answered

481
00:37:28.559 --> 00:37:32.239
the question and perhaps asked a few
basic ones about the company, and the

482
00:37:32.320 --> 00:37:37.400
position. Say to the hiring manager, this, if I'm fortunate enough to

483
00:37:37.519 --> 00:37:40.719
get this job and you and I
are sitting down in a year's time,

484
00:37:42.800 --> 00:37:45.559
what are the three things you'll want
me to tell you I've done for you.

485
00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:51.079
Two things will happen when you answer
that question. They're going to pause

486
00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:53.639
and then they're going to lean back. And then the second thing that's going

487
00:37:53.679 --> 00:37:58.079
to happen is they're going to start
telling you about stuff that isn't in the

488
00:37:58.159 --> 00:38:01.199
job description, that wasn't in the
question, And that gives you the opportunity

489
00:38:01.239 --> 00:38:07.119
as the candidate to reflect about how
you might address those problems. And so

490
00:38:07.239 --> 00:38:10.000
you've got information your competitors the other
candidates don't have, and that gives you

491
00:38:10.039 --> 00:38:15.440
an advantage. It also shows that
you're thinking about what's keeping that manager up

492
00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:19.840
at night and thinking about how to
make her or his life easier. So

493
00:38:20.719 --> 00:38:23.239
those are important. A couple of
other things. Pay attention to your body

494
00:38:23.360 --> 00:38:25.960
language. You know, you've got
to be an active listener, nod,

495
00:38:27.159 --> 00:38:30.719
make eye contact, have a firm
handshake, and finally, don't leave the

496
00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:34.960
room without asking for the job.
And the way to do that is,

497
00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:39.079
you know, I just say I'm
very excited. I'd love to come and

498
00:38:39.159 --> 00:38:45.000
work for you, and if you
get bonus points if you add is there

499
00:38:45.039 --> 00:38:50.280
any reason why any concerns you have
about me and my application? And sometimes

500
00:38:50.320 --> 00:38:52.599
I'll tell you things that typically would
come up after you leave the room,

501
00:38:52.639 --> 00:38:59.039
and that gives you a bonus round
to talk about those concerns. And then

502
00:38:59.159 --> 00:39:04.079
finally, I don't leave the room
without asking what their process is, what's

503
00:39:04.119 --> 00:39:07.760
the next step, when do you
make a decision, how are you going

504
00:39:07.800 --> 00:39:10.320
to notify candidates? And if I
don't hear from you, who should I

505
00:39:10.360 --> 00:39:15.360
follow up with? These are professional, business like questions. They're expected,

506
00:39:15.559 --> 00:39:19.320
and they allow you to do follow
up and not get freaked out if you

507
00:39:19.360 --> 00:39:22.239
don't hear in a week or two
weeks or three weeks. Bolden mac Oh,

508
00:39:22.280 --> 00:39:25.079
my gosh, that was golden.
I would also want to present with

509
00:39:25.159 --> 00:39:29.119
what you've said there. That I
tell people, especially young people, is

510
00:39:29.920 --> 00:39:34.519
by asking the kind of questions that
you're suggesting, we ask that you're creating

511
00:39:34.559 --> 00:39:39.599
a dialogue versus any interview you're and
therefore you're presencing more value for yourself and

512
00:39:39.719 --> 00:39:44.199
I think that help lets people showcase
their skills better and makes it more of

513
00:39:44.239 --> 00:39:49.400
a conversation versus a drilling. Yes, you're making such an important point a

514
00:39:49.519 --> 00:39:54.079
lease, because I think some people, because they just haven't done the preparation,

515
00:39:54.360 --> 00:39:58.000
or they don't know any better,
or they've limited experience, they think

516
00:39:58.039 --> 00:40:02.639
it's across examination and they're ob is
simply to answer questions, And your approach

517
00:40:02.719 --> 00:40:08.119
is so much better and effective because
it becomes a conversation. And don't we

518
00:40:08.159 --> 00:40:15.280
all like conversations? Yes? Which
well, and along those lines, Mac.

519
00:40:15.320 --> 00:40:19.159
Another thing that I wanted to talk
with you about, and I'm very

520
00:40:19.199 --> 00:40:22.159
aware of this with my younger students
as well, is they see in others

521
00:40:22.199 --> 00:40:25.599
as well, not just younger people, but people in general seem to question

522
00:40:25.760 --> 00:40:30.159
that other professionals will actually take the
time to meet with them as a job

523
00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:32.480
seeker for an informational interview, not
for a job interview, but for an

524
00:40:32.559 --> 00:40:37.079
informational interview, and they question,
well, why would they make time for

525
00:40:37.199 --> 00:40:40.599
me? What do you have to
say about that? I hear that a

526
00:40:40.679 --> 00:40:45.800
lot, and not only from people
early in their career, but also mid

527
00:40:45.880 --> 00:40:52.360
career and even senior professionals who haven't
done a lot of informational interviews. And

528
00:40:52.679 --> 00:40:58.360
I understand it. I think it
comes from lack of experience. When you

529
00:40:58.800 --> 00:41:05.679
start making these requests, you learn
pretty quickly that the reason busy professionals say

530
00:41:05.760 --> 00:41:10.199
yes to these meetings are really twofold. One is the request is very specific,

531
00:41:12.599 --> 00:41:15.800
and when people get turned down,
it's usually because they make a general

532
00:41:15.960 --> 00:41:22.000
request could I pick your brain or
could we get together for coffee? But

533
00:41:22.440 --> 00:41:29.519
if you're clear about what you want, send a simple email that says I'd

534
00:41:29.519 --> 00:41:31.559
like a twenty minute meeting. I'd
like to get together with you for twenty

535
00:41:31.599 --> 00:41:39.400
minutes to talk about opportunities in the
field of marketing in Austin. At least,

536
00:41:39.480 --> 00:41:45.159
Cortes suggest I get in touch with
you, and as you can see

537
00:41:45.159 --> 00:41:49.920
from the attached resume, I've got
considerable experience in the field and I'm available

538
00:41:49.960 --> 00:41:52.280
on these days at these times,
but I'm happy to work with your schedule.

539
00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:58.000
That's pretty specific and that's probably going
to get someone to say yes.

540
00:41:58.840 --> 00:42:04.360
The other reason that people busy professionals
say yes, it's because they ask for

541
00:42:04.440 --> 00:42:08.639
these meetings themselves at whatever point they
are in their career, and they recognize

542
00:42:08.679 --> 00:42:15.280
the value of informational interviews and they
want to be of service to others.

543
00:42:15.119 --> 00:42:17.639
But I think the key thing here
is the least. You've got to be

544
00:42:17.800 --> 00:42:21.440
specific when you make the request,
to be clear about what you want,

545
00:42:21.719 --> 00:42:24.679
make it easy for the person to
say yes to the appointment. That's gorgeous,

546
00:42:24.760 --> 00:42:29.039
Mac, just gorgeous. I feel
like you're really getting our listeners some

547
00:42:29.159 --> 00:42:30.960
really good meet here today. Thank
you for all of this. It's fantastic.

548
00:42:31.400 --> 00:42:36.360
The next thing I wanted to talk
about is mentors. I certainly know

549
00:42:36.519 --> 00:42:38.920
that the value that in my own
life, certainly mentors and sponsors have had

550
00:42:38.960 --> 00:42:43.519
for me in my own career development, and so I'm interested in what advice

551
00:42:43.639 --> 00:42:47.239
you share with people find a suitable
one, and how to navigate getting to

552
00:42:47.320 --> 00:42:52.199
a next move, if you will, and how can they reciprocate that mental

553
00:42:52.280 --> 00:42:58.360
relationship. I think it's important to
begin by understanding that mentors can come in

554
00:42:59.400 --> 00:43:05.320
different play different roles in your career. Sometimes I think people when they think

555
00:43:05.360 --> 00:43:09.039
of mentors, they think of Yoda
and this all wise all seeing figure who

556
00:43:09.239 --> 00:43:14.920
is going to be a constant in
your professional life and who's going to commit

557
00:43:15.039 --> 00:43:21.119
to spending a lot of time with
you. And mentors they can help you

558
00:43:21.199 --> 00:43:27.800
with a specific question in your career, maybe give you advice about you know

559
00:43:27.800 --> 00:43:30.880
if you're considering going to grad school, how that might be helpful. And

560
00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:35.599
so you'll have different people that you
turn to for advice, and it may

561
00:43:35.679 --> 00:43:39.880
be that you meet not once a
month, but maybe for a few times

562
00:43:39.960 --> 00:43:46.039
to discuss a specific challenge. And
it's important you know that you be respectful

563
00:43:46.039 --> 00:43:52.079
of mentors time and be clear about
what you're looking help for help with.

564
00:43:52.519 --> 00:43:59.440
But it's I think it begins by
understanding what is the challenge that you needed

565
00:44:00.280 --> 00:44:07.400
with and then identifying people who might
be helpful in doing that, and who

566
00:44:07.960 --> 00:44:12.880
particularly people who have accomplished that in
the past. The thing that I would

567
00:44:12.920 --> 00:44:15.519
say, just really quick to that
is I think that many people want to

568
00:44:15.679 --> 00:44:20.960
matter, and so if we can
presence how much a mentor matters to us,

569
00:44:21.039 --> 00:44:23.440
make sure they know how much they
matter to us, that's probably pretty

570
00:44:23.440 --> 00:44:25.679
important. And then, as you
say, always, you know, being

571
00:44:25.760 --> 00:44:30.639
service back to them. But I've
had one person made a huge difference in

572
00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:34.199
my life in Portland, Oregon,
by the way, Mack, more than

573
00:44:34.239 --> 00:44:36.880
thirty years ago. I'm still in
touch with him. I tell him much,

574
00:44:36.920 --> 00:44:42.079
I love him, how much he's
changed and improved my life. It's

575
00:44:42.159 --> 00:44:45.960
just it's a beautiful relationship. That's
terrific. That's a great story. Yeah,

576
00:44:46.079 --> 00:44:50.280
thank you. Well, we're running
out of time here quickly, and

577
00:44:50.280 --> 00:44:52.519
there's two more questions. For sure, I want to get out of you

578
00:44:52.519 --> 00:44:57.199
if I can. I'm really really
intrigued that you have founded these two B

579
00:44:57.320 --> 00:45:00.199
corp companies and use business as a
force for good. But can you say

580
00:45:00.199 --> 00:45:04.400
a little bit about these companies and
why you started them and how you run

581
00:45:04.480 --> 00:45:07.320
them. Sure. We've talked a
little bit about max List, and it's

582
00:45:07.320 --> 00:45:10.519
an online community that serves up to
eighty thousand people a month. There's a

583
00:45:10.639 --> 00:45:15.760
job board, but lots of practical
advice about job hunting. Most positions aren't

584
00:45:15.760 --> 00:45:22.360
posted on job boards. I started
max List is a very simple newsletter seventeen

585
00:45:22.440 --> 00:45:29.239
years ago because I wanted to serve
my professional network. And it grew very

586
00:45:29.320 --> 00:45:35.920
slowly, but eight years ago I
turned it into a side business and now

587
00:45:36.079 --> 00:45:42.840
it employs six people. My other
company is Prettier Communications. It's a social

588
00:45:42.960 --> 00:45:49.400
change public relations firm. We serve
foundations, nonprofits, and purpose driven brands.

589
00:45:50.599 --> 00:45:58.000
And I've been doing communications work throughout
my career. That's really been the

590
00:45:58.119 --> 00:46:02.199
skill that I've That's how I've made
a difference, and I talked a little

591
00:46:02.199 --> 00:46:07.400
bit about how after I came out
of the University of Iowa, I wanted

592
00:46:07.480 --> 00:46:14.039
to work in politics and human rights
advocacy and communications. I've had a lot

593
00:46:14.079 --> 00:46:19.000
of different jobs, you know.
I've worked in Central America. I've been

594
00:46:19.039 --> 00:46:24.760
in DC and Boston working for nonprofits
and elected officials and as well as public

595
00:46:24.800 --> 00:46:30.840
agencies and elected officials here and government
in Oregon rather but the concept that's run

596
00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:36.119
through all of them is wanting to
make a difference about issues I care about

597
00:46:36.199 --> 00:46:38.159
and in the community where I live
and work. And both of those companies

598
00:46:38.239 --> 00:46:45.119
allowed me to do that because there's
nothing more gratifying, at least than playing

599
00:46:45.159 --> 00:46:50.199
a small part and helping someone find
a job they can love. And the

600
00:46:50.639 --> 00:46:54.039
work that we do at Pritcher Communications, we're helping our clients tell their stories

601
00:46:54.639 --> 00:46:59.239
to bring about change, not only
in the Pacific Northwest, but we work

602
00:46:59.320 --> 00:47:02.079
with clients the country as well,
and that's very gratifying, and that people

603
00:47:02.119 --> 00:47:07.119
who work at both companies share those
values. They want to have work with

604
00:47:07.239 --> 00:47:12.239
purpose and make a positive difference,
and it's exciting to be able to come

605
00:47:12.280 --> 00:47:15.199
to work every day and do that
well. That is a beautiful way to

606
00:47:15.280 --> 00:47:16.800
close our show. Matt, I
want to thank you so much for coming

607
00:47:16.880 --> 00:47:21.360
on the show, sharing your passions, your wisdom, your experience with our

608
00:47:21.400 --> 00:47:24.400
listeners. Thank you very much.
Thank you, Lisa. I've really enjoyed

609
00:47:24.400 --> 00:47:28.360
our conversation. Me too. And
if you want to learn more about Matt

610
00:47:28.480 --> 00:47:31.119
Richard and the work he does,
one way to start is visit maslist dot

611
00:47:31.280 --> 00:47:36.079
org. You can find him that
way and learn more about Richard's communications as

612
00:47:36.119 --> 00:47:37.719
well, and then join us next
week when we're on the air with Steve

613
00:47:37.880 --> 00:47:42.800
Gavatorta. We'll be talking about his
book In Defense of Adversity. See you

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then when that workers at least worthy
of our life. So Work on Purpose.

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We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to tune in to

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Working on Purpose, featuring your host
Alis Cortes, each week on the Voice

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America Empowerment Channel. This week,
your life's purpose at work sh