Making the Most of Work Throughout Our Lives

WEBVTT

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There are some people that make their
work just another thing they have to do,

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and there are those that make their
work something that they want to do.

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Welcome to Working on Purpose with your
host, Elise Cortez. In our

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program, we provide guidance and inspiration
from those people who have found deeper meaning

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and personal connection to their work life. It's beyond nine to five. It's

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working on purpose. Now Here is
your host, Elise Cortez. I'm your

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host, Alis Cortes, joining you
from Denver, Colorado today as I'm doing

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some consulting out here. This program
is all about helping people more mut and

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productively connect with their work and equipping
leaders and organizations being the same for their

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employees. So I bring them guests
to a particular perspective or experience that I

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think contributes to or expands this conversation. And as a management consultant and social

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scientist, I draw on the meeting
work research I've been doing the last fifteen

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years, as well as my own
consulting, speaking and work developing work courses

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across the globe. I'll get to
my program in just in Mum Development to

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WOP fifty short for Working on Purpose fifty

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percent off enjoy. Last week,
if you missed the show live, you

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can always catch it be recorded podcast. We were on the air with Brian

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Anorio, who is an entrepreneur currently
serving as the founder and CEO of Proproposa,

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a best in class SaaS solution for
building stunningly beautiful proposals in half the

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time. We talked about his journey
as an entrepreneur, starting his first company

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at age twenty four now what he's
learned along the way that fortified him as

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a business owner. Great conversation,
very inspiring. With us this week is

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Matt Pritchett, the founder and publisher
of max List, an online community for

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people looking for rewarding, creative and
meaningful work. He is the author of

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Land Your Dream Job Anywhere and host
the weekly podcast Find your Dream Job.

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We'll be talking about the ways he
helps the unique set of job seekers in

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today's marketplace get some advice on networking
and interviewing, and also hear his experience

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in helping people change careers when they're
lost or want to discover their purpose.

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He joins us to day from Portland, Oregon, one of my favorite cities

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I lived in for years. Mac. Welcome to Working on Purpose. Well,

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thank you for having me on the
show. I'm really looking forward to

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our conversation. I am too,
and I you know, I'm a big

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fan of your work and I'm so
happy to get to share you with our

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listeners across the globe. Mac,
I think that as well as you know,

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work is really really important to me. It's a big way we spend

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our lives, and I really appreciate
the work that you do to help others

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more immediately connect with it. So
I want to see what kind of wisdom

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we can extract from you. In
about an hour. You're ready, I'm

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ready, and of course We're both
graduates of the University of Iowa, so

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we're very bright people, right,
people, very bright people. Yeah,

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the Harvard of the Midwest. I
love that. I'm so going to steal

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that. Thank you. Oh my
goodness. Well, since we've graduated,

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you've obviously made a beautiful career for
yourself and you've established yourself as a career

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expert. And I'm interested, of
course, in the beginnings, how you

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got started in this space and what
it is that you love about staying in

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the space of hoving so many people
find their way in the world of work.

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Well, I have been blessed to
have a very career, But I

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want to be candid. Yeah,
I've had my ups and downs, and

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I'd learned about job hunting and came
to find myself giving people advice about their

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careers because I'd learned the lessons the
hard way. I've been unemployed twice,

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and I know what it's like to
cash that unemployment check. I did it

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last unemployment check. Rather, I
did it once and I came close with

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than one check of doing it another
time. And those experiences taught me really

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two important lessons. One was that
I needed to master job hunting. As

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a skill. And the second lesson
was that the best jobs are filled by

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word of mouth. So our challenge
when we're out there looking for work is

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we've got to grow and tap into
our networks. And even when we're not

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looking for work, we've got to
think about our networks and how we can

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be of service to others. And
when you do that, great opportunities result.

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And for my career, I've been
in the workplace now for forty years.

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When I got out of the University
of Iowa, I wanted to do

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three things. I wanted to work
on election campaigns, I wanted to write

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for a living, and I wanted
to do human rights advocacy in Latin American.

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I've been able to do all three, but again, it hasn't been

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a forty five degree angle. There
have been lots of values along the way,

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as well as some peaks. You
know, I really appreciate that math

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because I think for a lot of
listeners, when they see someone who's as

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accomplished as you are, they get
intimidated and think, you know, gosh,

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I can't possibly approximate that or ever
go in that direction. And when

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you let us know that you had
your share of brusist and scripts along the

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way like I certainly have to.
It just makes you more accessible. So

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I really appreciate you starting with that. That's just gorgeous. Thank you,

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You're welcome. And again, the
gift that I got from those hard experiences

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and nobody likes to come home and
tell their spouse they've lost their job is

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I did learn. I did get
serious about learning for work, looking for

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work rather, and that has served
me so well in my career. And

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the people I see who thrive and
enjoy professional success learn that lesson too.

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How beautiful. Well, there's nothing
like I really see this mac for myself

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is that there's something about whatever it
is that we need or want desperately to

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learn for ourselves that gives us a
sense of purpose to serve other people.

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I've seen that born out time and
time again, and it's true for me

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too. It is and I think
people everybody hunger is for a purpose in

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their work. And it doesn't mean
that you have to go overseas and work

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in a refugee camp or in a
shelter helping people who are homeless. Those

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are important jobs, and I appreciate
the people who are called to do that

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work, but we can find a
purpose and meaning in any job. There's

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there's value in dignity that comes with
work, and I think the people who

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recognize that and make that part of
their work day get an extra pleasure out

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of their work that others often miss. I completely agree with that, Mac,

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and it was boring out in my
research. I won't go into that

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now because I want to focus on
you and your your message, but completely

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know that we as even being construe
meaning, and we could put meaning into

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everything and everything and we do so. Yes, agreed, Well, let

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me ask you this question that's been
perplexing me. Mac. It's just I

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just really in scratching my head on
this, and I'd like to know from

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your perspective, because you're in the
trenches with people in a job market that

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supposedly is three point eight percent unemployment. That just is such a remarkably low

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number. It seems like it still
takes people a good while to actually land

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a job. And so I'm wondering, this is a myth that I've created

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in my own mind, if I
am I reading the wrong newspapers. WHAT'SO

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about how long it takes these days
to find work? Well? I think

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there are some occupations, particularly service
or entry level positions, that you can

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get on the same day or the
next day after filling out an application for

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professional jobs. Even in an unemployment
rate this low, it can take two,

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three or even more months for a
position to get filled. And I

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think what's happening here is most managers
follow that old rule. I'm sure you're

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familiar with it, which is higher, low, fire fast. And the

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reasoning behind that is hiring is expensive
and you want to get it right.

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And because if you don't get it
right, it often takes you three to

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six months to figure out if you've
made a mistake as a manager. And

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nobody likes that, neither the manager
nor the person you eventually might let go,

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and then you've got to start all
over again. So, even in

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a job market like this, we
are seeing employers think carefully before they make

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offers to candidates. And I have
to imagine that the more scenor you are,

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the longer it takes. Well think
about the logistics that are involved.

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You know, you post an ad, you probably allow two to three weeks

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for people to respond. It takes
you another two to three weeks to sort

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through the resumes. Perhaps to the
first round of phone interviews, and then

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you might begin the personal interviews and
before you know it, you're in month

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three and before perhaps you're ready to
make an offer. And if you're looking

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for people for positions that you know
that are particularly sensiti if you might invest

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more time in it, and you
know, along the way, in addition

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to public postings, managers who are
doing hiring are also tapping their own personal

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networks and sending out emails asking for
recommendations from colleagues. And I know we're

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going to talk more about that,
but that's a big part of how the

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so called hidden job market works.
Okay, well, let's move a little

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bit now into some of the some
of the markets that you serve, some

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of the people that you serve,
Mac, I'm just amazed and blowing away

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by the swath of the people that
you serve. So near and dear tomorrow,

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my heart are millennials, because in
part I serve as an adjunct professor

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at seven Methodist University here in Dallas. I love working with that, with

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that new group of hungry people coming
into the workforce. But I'd like to

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keep the show as actionable for people
pointers they walk away with stuff they can

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use immediately. So what are some
of the key players you impart to help

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this particular group find their first job. I think there are three important points

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millennials need to keep in mind,
particularly when they're coming right out of college,

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but also in the early years of
their career when you're doing a job

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search, and this is true no
matter what's your age, you've got to

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have a goal. I meet so
many younger jobs seekers who when I say,

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well, what are you looking for? What kind of position do you

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want? The answer is often well, I'm keeping my options open or I'm

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not sure, And I get it. It's hard to make choices, but

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unless you're specific about what you want, you're going to end up applying everywhere

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and exhaust yourself in the process.
Also make it difficult for people to help

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you, and people do want to
help. Besides having a goal, I

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think the second most important point for
millennials is recognize that your first job doesn't

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have to be a dream job.
You need to get started. You're likely

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going to be in the workplace for
thirty or forty years, and that means

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you're probably going to have eight,
ten, or maybe even a dozen different

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positions to get the dream job.
There might be a couple steps you have

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to take first professionally in your early
and mid twenties to land that position.

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Identify what that job is, and
then use old fashioned reverse mapping to figure

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out how you need to get there, what steps you have to take,

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either educational credentials or internships or volunteer
experiences. But don't be disappointed. If

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your first job out of college is
a good entry level position in your field,

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it's it's a starter position. And
again I want to underscore the importance

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of knowing where you want to go. You want that position to support the

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journey you want to take in your
career. The third thing is, I

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would say to millennials, so you
kind of master job hunting as a skill

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early, not by trial and error, not because you've been unemployed for seven

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or eight months, as happened to
me and happens to so many other people.

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Invest the time to go in your
career services office at your university,

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and if you graduated a year or
two ago, go back. They Most

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colleges are happy to serve grads and
happy to connect you with people in their

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community and among their alumni. The
sooner you learn how to look for work

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and do career planning, well,
the more successful you're going to be in

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your career. Why it's a lesson
you got to learn. Why not learn

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it in your early twenties when you're
starting out, and then you'll benefit the

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most from it, agreed. I
to tell my students that work is enormous

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socialization opportunity, and the better sooner
they can socialize themselves into the marketplace through

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their connections, and as you say
to alumni the school, the better off

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they'll be to other prospective employers.
And I find that a lot of the

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other people are nervous about that aspect. I can understand it's it's new and

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unfamiliar, and it can be intimidating. So I think it's important to remember

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that generally people want to be helpful, and the more specific, again you

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are about what you need help with
and what your challenges are, the more

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helpful people can be to you.
Right, Well, let's hit this next

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question and then we'll take a quick
break here. I want to talk about

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those midlife professionals who are considering,
or oftentimes choose to start a whole new

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career. They are reinventing themselves,
they had enough aware where they're at and

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they're like, I'm ready to move
on. What advice or points can you

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share who with us to help those
people. I think it's important to do

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your homework. So sometimes an opportunity
if you've never had the experience of doing

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the work, can sound pretty glamorous. And before you make that leap and

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either try to move into a new
sector or perhaps invest in a small business

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or go to a new part of
the country, find out what that work

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is really like. And the best
way to do it is to talk to

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people who have who are either doing
it, doing the career you want to

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move into, or or have made
a switch like you want to do because

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you don't want to you want to
be clear about what's involved and what it's

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going to take to be successful.
This is where informational interviews can be really

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helpful. And again, if you
know exactly what you want to do,

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find people who've done it, spend
time talking to them about how they made

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that switch, what challenges they faced, what objections they had to overcome,

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if they were when they sat down
with hiring managers who were considering her applications,

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how did they overcome those objections,
and I think you want to do

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that homework up front. You don't
want to use your job search process when

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you're trying to change sectors as a
kind of research project. Yes, you

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should be asking lots of questions along
the way, but get the fundamentals right

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from the start, because you don't
want to invest a lot of time applying

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for positions in a new sector and
discover that's really not a good fit.

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Agreed, Agreed. All right,
Well let's grab a quick break here.

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There's more I want to ask about
somebody to other groups that you serve,

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but let's grab our first break.
I'm a last quartet or on the ear

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of mac Protusion is the founder and
publisher of max List, and online community

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for people looking for rewarding, creative
and meaningful work. He is the author

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of Land Your Dream Job Anywhere and
hosted with the podcast Find your Dream Job.

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You can access of pre chapter of
the book by visiting mac maxlist dot

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00:16:04.639 --> 00:16:11.720
org forwardslas Working on Purpose again.
It'st Maxlist, m acsist dot org forward

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slash Working on Purpose who joins the
name from Portland, Oregon. After great

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will hear more about a few more
of those segments that he serves and then

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get into networking and interviewing. Stay
with us, Who'll be right back.

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Alice Cortez is a speaker and engagement
and development catalyst. She designs and delivers

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professional development, leadership and engagement workshops
and can bring her expertise to your organization.

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She will help ignite meaningful development within
your workforce that will increase employee engagement,

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performance and retention. To learn more
or to invite a last to speak

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00:16:56.320 --> 00:17:02.600
to your organization, please visit her
at www dot Elise Cortez dot com.

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00:17:02.759 --> 00:17:12.640
She would welcome the opportunity to help
get your employees working on purpose. This

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00:17:12.960 --> 00:17:18.880
is working on purpose with Elise Cortez. To reach our program today, send

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an email to Elise ali Se at
Elise Cortez dot com. Now back to

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working on purpose. My guest is
Mac Pitcher, who is the founder of

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publisher of max List and online community. Because people would set it and meaning

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for work, I meaning career expert. Mac helps people who are looking for

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a job during all of life's transitions. Niel is getting a first job,

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midlight professional switching sectors, parents getting
back to work after raising the family,

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or baby boomers who want to change
careers. Is proud to own two registered

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Becorp companies which use the power of
markets to solve social environmental problems. We've

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been talking to you about some of
the audiences that he serves. Will continue

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that conversation. I'm your host,
Elise Cortes. All right, So Mac,

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before we broke, I wanted to
ask you a little bit more about

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some of the people that you serve
career wise who maybe have left the workforce

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to raise families and maybe it's spend
five years, maybe you spend ten years.

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How do you help those people?
Well, the first question people in

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those circumstances off in face is do
they want to go back to their old

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job or their former field. And
it's an important question to ask yourself.

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It's not uncommon, as we talked
about before the break, for people to

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want to make career changes after ten
or fifteen years in the workforce. So

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the way to again settle that question
is be clear about what you want to

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do next and invest the time and
goal setting. And particularly if you've been

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out of the workforce for five or
ten years, you might want to step

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back and do some self assessment and
as some reflection before you go out and

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begin your search, because if you're
going to make a career pivot, that's

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a different job search strategy than one
where you're looking for a position in the

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field that you left when you took
the break. I think that's true for

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both men and women. For women, there are a couple of special challenges.

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You know, after a break,
often, whatever your gender, your

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professional network might not be as strong
as it was before you took time away.

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But you need to recognize the value
of the new networks that you might

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have created while you were working in
the home, and especially for women,

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often just takes the form of service
on community boards, or involvement in schools

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or faith based groups, or connections
with other other parents, you know,

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mommy groups can be very powerful force. So those are things to think about.

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Beautiful advice. I really appreciate that, and I think a lot of

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the women out there that are in
transition will certainly appreciate that. I've seen

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several women take those very skill smack
and transition them the community service, the

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leadership, the fundraising, and turn
them into very successful job I mean really

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successful jobs. So that's really great
to presence for our parents out there that

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are considering going back, what about
the baby boomers who lose their job,

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maybe maybe not by choice or maybe
by choice. What about them? Well,

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baby boomers either they base a special
challenge. Agism is real. Research

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shows it's the fact, and it's
illegal. You could sue, but chances

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are you would invest a lot of
time and energy and lawsuits and it would

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be better well served focusing on your
job search. So I think when boomers

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are either looking for their next position
or they've lost a job and they're looking

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for something new, they've got to
think about the concerns that hiring managers have

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about this generation. And I'm a
member of it. I think there are

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a lot of misconceptions out there about
boomers. You know that they have too

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much experience, They're going to have
high salary expectations, have extra healthcare costs.

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They might be inflexible, They're going
to be uncomfortable working for a younger

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supervisor. Maybe they're manager is concerned
that someone is just looking for a place

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to coast for a couple of years
until Metacare and social Security kicks in.

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So how do you how do you
deal with that? Nobody is ever going

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to tell you that, So you
need to consider those objections and those misconceptions,

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and make sure that your application materials
and your presentations during interviews and your

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contacts with the employer addresses those.
And you know, you need to make

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sure sure that you demonstrate that you're
lifelong learner, that you like new challenges,

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that you've had experience working for supervisors
of different ages, that you know

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you're If you're looking for a position
that involves a pay cut, you need

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to be clear about why you're excited
about that opportunity and the pay cut doesn't

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bother you. And you can do
this again and your interviews, your application

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materials, cover letters and like beautiful, very beautiful. And I do agree

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with you that the ages, I
didn't know about the research, but I

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certainly do anecdotally believe that it's very
real based in the conversations I have with

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people. So appreciate just servicing that
it's so. So do you deal with

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it? Also, for baby boomers, in addition to dealing with those misconceptions,

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they especially need to invest in looking
for what are often called the hidden

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jobs, the ones that are filled
by word of mouth, because human connection

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is so powerful a lease and if
you can get in front of a hiring

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manager and make your case. You're
going to be persuasive if you're an effective

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presenter, no matter what's your age, but especially I think for older job

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seekers. M Well, let's talk
about that hidden job market Max. So

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some of the people who are listening
to this might be going, what do

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you mean there's a hidden job market? Or oh I thought that existed.

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So first, what do you mean
by that term hidden job mark market?

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Well, these are the positions that
are never posted. They don't appear on

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job boards or in old fashioned newspaper
ads, and they're filled by word of

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mouth. And I you know,
we talked a little bit about Maxlist,

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the company I run. It's a
website that serves people in the Pacific Northwest,

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and we have a job board.
We publish about five hundred positions a

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month, and I'm very proud of
the value we provide in that board.

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And I hear from job seekers all
the time how much they appreciate those listings.

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But I'm always concerned when they tell
me they're spending a one hundred percent

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of their time looking at job boards
like mine, because their estimates out there

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that as many as eighty percent of
all jobs are filled by word of mouth.

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Now, maybe the number is fifty
percent or sixty or seventy, whatever

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the figure, you need to look
at how you spend your time. And

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too many job seekers are spending their
days one hundred percent of their search looking

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at listings online, applying online,
and they need to step away from the

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computer and invest in things like informational
interviews, networking, and volunteering in their

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field that are going to help them
grow their professional networks and have conversations with

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people who are filling those jobs that
are filled by word of mouth. You

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know, Mac, you're just reminding
me for you and I got on the

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air IF here to have this conversation. I was talking with a girlfriend of

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mine and her husband in schooled as
a mechanical engineer and then has spent years

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in innovation creativity space and literally of
just having a conversation with somebody else in

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their community in the financial services space, and they were talking about how they

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were developing business and such, and
this guy being this guy runs off the

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net and research comes back and goes, you know what, I think I

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know what's going on here. I
think I know what the issue is for

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you guys. And they turned around
back and said, guess what we need

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to hire you? We like how
you think that's the kind of thinking we

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need here. We didn't, We
weren't planning on hiring, but what do

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you think? And he's been on
board now for a couple of months and

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having eight ball perfect example of well, it's not even a hidden John market.

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It wasn't even He created his own
position by having a conversation with someone

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and then taking his past experience in
the way of thinking it, thinking about

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it, and applying it in a
whole different space. That adds a whole

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new range of value. And I
think, I know you've done a lot

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of hiring in your career, and
I know you have many listeners who have

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to think about the times that we're
filling a position in our team or our

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company. We all take that posting
and we send it to a few people,

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don't we your lease and we say
do you know of anybody who's good?

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Can you send good candidates my way? And if somebody responds and says

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you should talk to Marry or have
you checked in with John? And if

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Mary sends in a resume, you're
probably going to walk that to the HR

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person and say I think we should
take a look at this application. Absolutely

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absolutely, And so how the hidden
job market works, it's through connections,

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and they're often the weakest of ties. But the principle that's driving it is

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this. People hire people they know, or they hire people who are recommended

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to people by people they trust.
Now, getting someone to walk your resume

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to the HR managers isn't going to
get you the job, but it probably

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will get your resume a long,
hard look and may lead to a phone

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screener. There are others things that
you can do to increase the odds of

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actually getting an interview, and I
know we're going to talk about those two.

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Well, let's talk about networking next, because that certainly strikes me.

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You know, when you talk about
getting yourself into a place where somebody would

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actually refer you, that means that
somewhere there's been some kind of a conversation

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where you're even present on their radar. And so I know that one of

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your famous things is you've got some
some tips about helping it and techniques to

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help people get more comfortable with networking. As we talked about ready, my

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students, the young ones that are
just coming into the marketplace, are horrified

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by that. Sometimes they come back
and they say, oh my gosh,

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they call me doctor. See doctor. See that was so fun. I

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thought I was going to be terrible
at it, but I made some new

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friends. I'm like, I know, wasn't it beautiful? So what can

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you tell us about making networking more
enjoyable or productive? Well, first of

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all, successful in networking isn't the
way we probably imagine it, which is

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the function room at the holiday and
at the airport, and we've all been

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in that room and there's always somebody
walking around collecting business cards, and they

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think that success is the number of
cards they take home that night. And

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that's that's not how effective networking works. It's about relationships and it's a long

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game. But you can go to
an event in your field and maybe it's

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a happy hour, maybe it's a
conference, Maybe it's the monthly lunch program,

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and you need to walk in the
room with some kind of goal.

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Maybe you want to have meat one
or two new people. Maybe you know

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that your dream is to work at
Nike, a big employer out here in

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Oregon, and the MC of that
month's lunch program works at Nike, and

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so you have an opportunity to go
up and chat with that person and begin

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to connect and build a relationship with
them, because one day you might want

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to work in that company, or
indeed that is your goal. So if

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you walk into that room focusing on
relationships and knowing who you want to connect

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with, or just being open to
engaging conversations with people in your field,

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that could be a very successful networking
event. And that it takes time to

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build those ties, but it will
pay dividends for years to come. I

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think that is incredibly sage advice,
going and looking for relationships, not a

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job or not a connection to get
you something. I think that's gorgeous.

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Neck. Yeah, I do encourage
people if if there is a company where

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you want to work, and you
have through your homework identified that the leaders

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of that company are involved in a
professional association or serve on the board of

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that group, and you want to
build a genuine relationship with them, don't

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be shy about going to those events
and introducing yourself and looking for ways that

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you can build that relationship. Maybe
it's by offering to do a project for

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the association, or maybe put together
the following month's lunch program. When you

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are of service to others like that
you show them what you can do,

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and you're giving without any expectation of
getting in return, and you're building a

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tie and people are going to think
of you and be not only grateful for

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the work that you've done for that
group, but when they are they're also

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going to be happy to speak with
you if you want to get their insights

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about your job search or their advice
about opportunities in the field. And it

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begins with service, but it can
it can help your career along the way.

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I love that. I do love
the idea of offering service. And

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what I often tell my students is
even to open the conversation is to simply

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especially if they're more introverted and uncomfortable
talking with new people, is to employ

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every really lovely ghost of curiosity.
Go into the conversation curious who are you,

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what are you up to, what
do you put your put put yourself

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into in life? And I feel
like if you can do, if you

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00:31:10.039 --> 00:31:12.119
can come at the conversation to even
start from the banished point of being curious

404
00:31:12.160 --> 00:31:17.519
about who you're talking with, that
it's a great way to start and then

405
00:31:17.599 --> 00:31:21.160
offering that service. I think that
that's a pretty pretty good one two punch.

406
00:31:21.200 --> 00:31:25.880
I think, yeah, that's great
as I here offering about asking about

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others because candidly, and I say
disrespectfully, people love to talk about themselves

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and most people are uncomfortable or a
little lot ill at ease and networking events.

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And so if you come prepared with
a few general questions, just ice

410
00:31:41.440 --> 00:31:45.240
breakers, you know, tell me
about yourself, what brought you here tonight?

411
00:31:45.480 --> 00:31:48.279
How long have you been involved in
the association? Is this your first

412
00:31:48.279 --> 00:31:52.119
time at the conference? People will? It puts people at ease, It

413
00:31:52.119 --> 00:31:59.400
makes them feel comfortable, and it
allows a conversation to begin. And I

414
00:31:59.440 --> 00:32:05.480
would say networking too. And we've
touched on this in discussing service. It's

415
00:32:06.440 --> 00:32:10.079
it's not all about asking others for
help. It's also about giving and being

416
00:32:10.119 --> 00:32:15.119
of service to others too. I
really appreciate that. Let's for this time

417
00:32:15.160 --> 00:32:16.880
being here, let's take our last
break here, Mac, I'm Elise Courts

418
00:32:16.920 --> 00:32:20.640
as your host. We've on the
air with Mac Pritchard, who is the

419
00:32:20.640 --> 00:32:23.960
founder and publisher of max List,
and online community for people looking for rewarding,

420
00:32:24.160 --> 00:32:28.400
creative and meaningful work. He's the
author of Land Your Dream Job,

421
00:32:28.440 --> 00:32:31.359
anywhere and host the weekly podcast Find
Your Dream Job. You can access a

422
00:32:31.400 --> 00:32:37.200
free chapter of this book by visiting
maxmist dot org forward slash Working on Purpose.

423
00:32:37.279 --> 00:32:44.799
So it's mcslist dot org forward slash
Working on Purpose. Mac joins us

424
00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:46.680
today from Portland, Oregon. After
the break, we will talk about the

425
00:32:46.720 --> 00:32:51.720
interviewing that we've mentioned before and some
more aspects of working on Purpose. Stay

426
00:32:51.759 --> 00:33:08.839
with us, we'll be right back. Elise Cortez is a speaker and engagement

427
00:33:08.839 --> 00:33:15.839
and development catalyst. She designs and
delivers professional development, leadership and engagement workshops

428
00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:20.640
and can bring her expertise to your
organization. She will help ignite meaningful development

429
00:33:20.680 --> 00:33:24.799
within your workforce that will increase employee
engagement, performance and retention. To learn

430
00:33:24.839 --> 00:33:29.720
more or to invite Elise to speak
to your organization, please visit her at

431
00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:35.240
www dot Elise Cortez dot com.
She would welcome the opportunity to help get

432
00:33:35.279 --> 00:33:45.680
your employees working on purpose. This
is working on Purpose with Elise Cortez.

433
00:33:46.160 --> 00:33:52.680
To reach our program today, send
an email to Elise ali Se at Elise

434
00:33:52.759 --> 00:33:59.519
Cortez dot com. Now back to
Working on Purpose. My guest is Max

435
00:33:59.599 --> 00:34:04.000
Prichard, the founder and publisher of
maxist and online creative reporting, creative and

436
00:34:04.079 --> 00:34:07.440
mean for a leading career expert.
MAX helps people who are looking for a

437
00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:12.239
job during all of life's transitions,
Millennials getting a first job, midlight professional

438
00:34:12.280 --> 00:34:15.239
switching sectors, parents getting back to
work after raising a family, or boomers

439
00:34:15.440 --> 00:34:20.039
who want to change careers. Is
proud to own two registered B Corp.

440
00:34:20.119 --> 00:34:23.159
Companies which use the power of markets
to solve social environmental problems. I'm your

441
00:34:23.159 --> 00:34:27.480
host, Alice Cortez. So for
this last segment here, Mac, I

442
00:34:27.519 --> 00:34:30.199
want to get into two things.
One is the art of interviewing and then

443
00:34:30.239 --> 00:34:35.480
two really getting in some of the
things that really get to purpose interviewing.

444
00:34:35.599 --> 00:34:39.519
Yes, I don't know too many
people who don't get nervous about interviews.

445
00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:44.480
So talk to us about that art. The section that you talk about in

446
00:34:44.480 --> 00:34:47.039
your site that boasts how to nail
a job interview would be really useful to

447
00:34:47.039 --> 00:34:51.280
hear right about now for some people
listening, Well, first of all,

448
00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:55.920
don't wing it. And it's shocking
to me how many people walk into an

449
00:34:55.920 --> 00:35:01.360
interview room unprepared. And I think
it up in large part because people are

450
00:35:01.480 --> 00:35:07.159
nervous and they're not sure how to
prepare and The good news is there are

451
00:35:07.159 --> 00:35:09.719
lots of books out there, and
again you can go to your college career

452
00:35:09.760 --> 00:35:16.000
services office or a local employment department
and get advice about how to prepare for

453
00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:21.559
an interview. I think a couple
of principles to keep in mind as you

454
00:35:21.639 --> 00:35:28.639
prepare employers higher problem solvers, and
that means you need to know the employers

455
00:35:28.679 --> 00:35:30.920
problems and challenges, and you've got
to show how you can solve them.

456
00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:36.239
You're in that room because you've got
the qualifications, your credentials are good.

457
00:35:37.199 --> 00:35:40.679
Now you're competing probably with three to
five other people, and you've got to

458
00:35:40.719 --> 00:35:46.559
stand out. You've got to draw
the employer out about their challenges and share

459
00:35:46.559 --> 00:35:52.199
your own ideas and experiences that show
how you can help make that person's life

460
00:35:52.199 --> 00:35:55.000
easier. So to do that,
you've got to do basic research. You

461
00:35:55.079 --> 00:35:59.960
know, look at the company website, check the LinkedIn profiles of the interviewers.

462
00:36:00.119 --> 00:36:01.719
It's okay to ask when the interview
is scheduled, who you're going to

463
00:36:01.760 --> 00:36:06.320
be meeting with, who's going to
be in the room, the names you

464
00:36:06.400 --> 00:36:09.440
know, check out that firm online. Spend you know, half half an

465
00:36:09.440 --> 00:36:15.800
hour an hour on just basic research. You'll want to find out either through

466
00:36:15.880 --> 00:36:21.159
online research or through contacts with people
who know that company about again the challenges

467
00:36:21.199 --> 00:36:25.320
the company faces. And you can
find those contacts by looking on LinkedIn and

468
00:36:25.360 --> 00:36:30.280
see who you might be connected to
inside that firm. That can be helpful

469
00:36:30.280 --> 00:36:35.079
too, and references later if there
are people who know about your work.

470
00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:38.400
So after you do your research,
you got you gotta have a strategy,

471
00:36:38.639 --> 00:36:43.920
focus on the employer's problems, think
about what you have to offer, and

472
00:36:43.960 --> 00:36:46.800
then prepare for the common questions you're
going to get. And these are easy

473
00:36:46.840 --> 00:36:51.440
to find. Just google. You
know ten most common questions and interviews and

474
00:36:51.840 --> 00:36:53.880
they're basic things like why do you
want the job? Are you why are

475
00:36:53.880 --> 00:36:58.199
you leaving your current position? What
do you hope to? Where do you

476
00:36:58.239 --> 00:37:01.719
hope to be in five years?
Practice your answers to these things, be

477
00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:05.440
ready to answer them. You probably
won't be asked all of them, but

478
00:37:05.519 --> 00:37:08.920
you want to be ready. You
can also need to have your own set

479
00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:13.639
of questions about the company and the
job, and again they should come back

480
00:37:13.679 --> 00:37:19.599
to the challenges and the results that
the employer hopes this person is going to

481
00:37:19.800 --> 00:37:25.679
produce. Here's my favorite interview question
of all time, at least when you

482
00:37:25.760 --> 00:37:30.039
have a moment, after you've answered
the question and perhaps asked a few basic

483
00:37:30.119 --> 00:37:36.000
ones about the company and the position, say to the hiring manager this,

484
00:37:36.719 --> 00:37:39.440
if I'm fortunate enough to get this
job, and you and I are sitting

485
00:37:39.440 --> 00:37:45.559
down in a year's time, what
are the three things you'll want me to

486
00:37:45.559 --> 00:37:49.320
tell you I've done for you?
And now two things will happen when you

487
00:37:49.360 --> 00:37:52.280
answer that question. They're going to
pause, and then they're going to lean

488
00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:54.559
back. And then the second thing
that's going to happen is they're going to

489
00:37:54.559 --> 00:37:59.480
start telling you about stuff that isn't
in the job description, that wasn't in

490
00:37:59.519 --> 00:38:04.199
the question, And that gives you
the opportunity as the candidate to reflect about

491
00:38:04.239 --> 00:38:08.199
how you might address those problems.
And so you've got information your competitors the

492
00:38:08.280 --> 00:38:13.039
other candidates don't have, then that
gives you an advantage. It also shows

493
00:38:13.239 --> 00:38:15.920
that you're thinking about what's keeping that
manager up at night and thinking about how

494
00:38:15.920 --> 00:38:22.239
to make her or his life easier. So those are important. A couple

495
00:38:22.239 --> 00:38:24.199
of other things. Pay attention to
your body language. You know, you've

496
00:38:24.199 --> 00:38:28.639
got to be an active listener,
not make eye contact, have a firm

497
00:38:28.679 --> 00:38:32.559
handshake, and finally, don't leave
the room without asking for the job.

498
00:38:32.960 --> 00:38:38.440
And the way to do that is
I just say I'm very excited, I'd

499
00:38:38.440 --> 00:38:43.480
love to come and work for you, and if you get bonus points,

500
00:38:43.519 --> 00:38:47.159
if you add is there any reason
why any concerns you have about me and

501
00:38:47.280 --> 00:38:52.920
my application? And sometimes I'll tell
you things that typically would come up after

502
00:38:52.960 --> 00:38:57.000
you leave the room, and that
gives you a bonus round to talk about

503
00:38:57.039 --> 00:39:01.639
those concerns. And then finally fill
don't leave the room without asking what their

504
00:39:01.679 --> 00:39:06.360
process is, what's the next step, When do you make a decision,

505
00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:09.440
how are you going to notify candidates? And if I don't hear from you,

506
00:39:09.800 --> 00:39:14.199
who should I follow up with?
These are professional, business like questions.

507
00:39:14.599 --> 00:39:17.519
They're expected, and they allow you
to do follow up and not get

508
00:39:17.559 --> 00:39:21.840
freaked out if you don't hear in
a week or two weeks or three weeks.

509
00:39:22.360 --> 00:39:24.320
Bolden mac Oh, my gosh,
that was Bolden. I would also

510
00:39:24.360 --> 00:39:28.320
want to present with what you said
there. That I tell people, especially

511
00:39:28.360 --> 00:39:31.519
young people, is by asking the
kind of questions that you're suggesting, we

512
00:39:31.599 --> 00:39:38.440
ask that you're creating a dialogue versus
an interview, and therefore you're presencing more

513
00:39:38.519 --> 00:39:43.119
value for yourself, and I think
that help lets people showcase their skills better

514
00:39:43.440 --> 00:39:47.000
and makes it more of a conversation
versus a drilling. Yes, you're making

515
00:39:47.000 --> 00:39:52.000
such an important point at least because
I think people some people, because they

516
00:39:52.039 --> 00:39:55.920
just haven't done the preparation, or
they don't know any better, or they've

517
00:39:55.920 --> 00:40:00.039
limited experience, they think it's a
cross examination and they're is simply to answer

518
00:40:00.199 --> 00:40:07.159
questions. And your approach is so
much better and effective because it becomes a

519
00:40:07.199 --> 00:40:10.719
conversation. And don't we all like
conversations? Yes, we do. And

520
00:40:14.679 --> 00:40:16.519
well and along those lines, Mac. Another thing that I wanted to talk

521
00:40:16.559 --> 00:40:20.760
with you about, and I'm very
aware of this with my younger students as

522
00:40:20.800 --> 00:40:23.719
well, is they see and others
as well, not just younger people,

523
00:40:23.760 --> 00:40:28.679
but people in general seem to question
that other professionals will actually take the time

524
00:40:28.719 --> 00:40:31.159
to meet with them as a job
seeker for an informational interview, not for

525
00:40:31.199 --> 00:40:37.039
a job, but for an informational
interview, and they question, well,

526
00:40:37.079 --> 00:40:38.679
why would they make time for me? What do you have to say about

527
00:40:38.719 --> 00:40:44.880
that? I hear that a lot, and not only from people early in

528
00:40:44.920 --> 00:40:50.840
their career, but also mid career
and even senior professionals who haven't done a

529
00:40:50.840 --> 00:40:55.000
lot of informational interviews, and I
understand it. I think it comes up

530
00:40:55.079 --> 00:41:00.679
from lack of experience. When you
start making these requests, you learned pretty

531
00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:07.079
quickly that the reason busy professionals say
yes to these meetings are really twofold.

532
00:41:07.199 --> 00:41:14.519
One is the request is very specific, and when people get turned down,

533
00:41:14.559 --> 00:41:19.280
it's usually because they make a general
request like could I pick your brain or

534
00:41:19.440 --> 00:41:23.519
could we get together for coffee.
But if you make a if you're clear

535
00:41:23.519 --> 00:41:29.320
about what you want, say,
you send a simple email that says,

536
00:41:29.320 --> 00:41:31.239
I'd like a twenty minute meeting.
I'd like to get together with you for

537
00:41:31.280 --> 00:41:39.159
twenty minutes to talk about opportunities in
the field of marketing in Austin. At

538
00:41:39.239 --> 00:41:44.960
least cortests suggest I get in touch
with you, and I'm as you can

539
00:41:44.960 --> 00:41:49.400
see from the attached resume, I've
got considerable experience in the field and I'm

540
00:41:49.400 --> 00:41:52.280
available on these days at these times
that I'm happy to work with your schedule.

541
00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:58.000
That's pretty specific and that's probably going
to get someone to say yes.

542
00:41:58.800 --> 00:42:04.360
The other reason that people busy professionals
say yes it is because they ask for

543
00:42:04.400 --> 00:42:07.960
these meetings themselves. At whatever point
they are in their career, and they

544
00:42:08.079 --> 00:42:15.320
recognize the value of informational interviews and
they want to be of service to others.

545
00:42:15.079 --> 00:42:17.719
But I think the key thing here
is at least you've got to be

546
00:42:17.760 --> 00:42:21.480
specific when you make the request,
to be clear about what you want,

547
00:42:21.679 --> 00:42:24.679
make it easy for the person to
say yes to the appointment. That's gorgeous,

548
00:42:24.719 --> 00:42:29.039
Max, just gorgeous. I feel
like you're really getting our listeners some

549
00:42:29.159 --> 00:42:31.000
really good meet here today. Thank
you for all of this, It's fantastic.

550
00:42:31.360 --> 00:42:36.360
The next thing I wanted to talk
about is mentors. I certainly know

551
00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:38.920
that the value that in my own
life, certainly mentors and sponsors have had

552
00:42:38.960 --> 00:42:43.519
for me in my own career development, and so I'm interested in what advice

553
00:42:43.599 --> 00:42:47.239
you share with people find a suitable
one, and how to navigate getting to

554
00:42:47.280 --> 00:42:52.199
a next move, if you will, and how can they reciprocate that mental

555
00:42:52.239 --> 00:42:58.400
relationship. I think it's important to
begin by understanding that mentors can come in

556
00:42:59.360 --> 00:43:05.320
different play different roles in your career. Sometimes I think people when they think

557
00:43:05.320 --> 00:43:08.280
of mentors, they think of Yoda, and this all wise all seeing a

558
00:43:08.440 --> 00:43:14.519
figure who is going to be a
constant in your professional life and who's going

559
00:43:14.559 --> 00:43:21.039
to commit to spending a lot of
time with you and mentors they can help

560
00:43:21.039 --> 00:43:27.679
you with a specific question in your
career, maybe give you advice about you

561
00:43:27.719 --> 00:43:30.800
know, if you're considering going to
grad school, how that might be helpful.

562
00:43:30.800 --> 00:43:35.239
And so you'll have different people that
you turn to for advice, and

563
00:43:35.280 --> 00:43:39.320
it may be that you meet not
once a month, but maybe for a

564
00:43:39.320 --> 00:43:45.280
few times to discuss a specific challenge. And it's important you know that you

565
00:43:45.360 --> 00:43:52.199
be respectful mentors time and be clear
about what you're looking help for help with.

566
00:43:52.519 --> 00:43:59.079
But it's I think it begins by
understanding what is the challenge that you

567
00:43:59.159 --> 00:44:05.000
needed ice with, and then identifying
people who might be helpful in doing that

568
00:44:05.199 --> 00:44:12.599
and who particularly people who have accomplished
that in the past. The thing that

569
00:44:12.599 --> 00:44:15.320
I would say, just really quick
to that is I think that many people

570
00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:20.599
want to matter, and so if
we can presence how much and mentor matters

571
00:44:20.639 --> 00:44:22.840
to us, make sure they know
how much they matter to us, that's

572
00:44:22.840 --> 00:44:27.360
probably pretty important. And then as
you say, always being service back to

573
00:44:27.400 --> 00:44:31.119
them. But I've had one person
made a huge difference in my life in

574
00:44:31.159 --> 00:44:34.920
Portland, Oregon. By the way, Mac more than thirty years ago,

575
00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:37.559
I'm still in touch with him.
I tell him which I love him,

576
00:44:37.639 --> 00:44:43.519
how much she's changed and improved my
life. It's just it's a beautiful relationship.

577
00:44:44.360 --> 00:44:46.440
Now, that's terrific. That's a
great story. Yeah, thank you.

578
00:44:47.559 --> 00:44:50.760
Well, we're rotting out of time
here quickly, and there's two more

579
00:44:50.840 --> 00:44:52.960
questions. For sure, I want
to get out of you if I can.

580
00:44:53.480 --> 00:44:58.079
I'm really really intrigued that you have
founded these two B Corp Companies and

581
00:44:58.239 --> 00:45:00.800
use business as a force for good. Can you say a little bit about

582
00:45:00.800 --> 00:45:05.480
these companies and why you started them
and how you run them. Sure.

583
00:45:05.480 --> 00:45:08.360
We've talked a little bit about max
List, and it's an online community that

584
00:45:08.440 --> 00:45:12.239
serves up to eighty thousand people a
month. There's a job board, but

585
00:45:12.400 --> 00:45:16.920
lots of practical advice about job hunting. Most positions aren't posted on job boards.

586
00:45:17.880 --> 00:45:24.159
I started max List as a very
simple newsletter seventeen years ago because I

587
00:45:24.199 --> 00:45:30.639
wanted to serve my professional network,
and it grew very slowly. But eight

588
00:45:30.719 --> 00:45:37.000
years ago I turned it into a
side business and now it employs fixed people.

589
00:45:38.079 --> 00:45:44.199
My other company is pretty Your Communications. It's a social change public relations

590
00:45:44.199 --> 00:45:52.400
firm. We serve foundations, nonprofits
and purpose driven brands, and I've been

591
00:45:52.440 --> 00:46:00.760
doing communications work throughout my career.
That's really been the skill that I've That's

592
00:46:00.800 --> 00:46:05.199
how I've made a difference. And
I talked a little bit about how after

593
00:46:05.239 --> 00:46:08.280
I came out of the University of
Iowa, I wanted to work in politics

594
00:46:08.480 --> 00:46:14.920
and human rights advocacy and communications.
I've had a lot of different jobs,

595
00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:20.119
you know. I've worked in Central
America, I've been in DC in Boston

596
00:46:20.320 --> 00:46:27.360
working for nonprofits and elected officials,
and as well as public agencies and elected

597
00:46:27.360 --> 00:46:31.239
officials here in government in Oregon rather
but the concept that's run through all of

598
00:46:31.239 --> 00:46:36.519
them is wanting to make a difference
about issues I care about and in the

599
00:46:36.519 --> 00:46:38.719
community where I live and work.
And both of those companies allowed me to

600
00:46:38.760 --> 00:46:45.920
do that because there's nothing more gratifying, at least than playing a small part

601
00:46:45.000 --> 00:46:51.079
and helping someone find a job they
can love. And the work that we

602
00:46:51.119 --> 00:46:55.440
do at Prichard Communications, we're helping
our clients tell their stories to bring about

603
00:46:55.719 --> 00:47:00.000
change, not only in the Pacific
Northwest, but we work with clients across

604
00:47:00.199 --> 00:47:02.480
the country as well, and that's
very gratifying. And the people who work

605
00:47:02.480 --> 00:47:07.760
at both companies share those values.
They want to have work with purpose and

606
00:47:07.800 --> 00:47:12.480
make a positive difference, and it's
exciting to be able to come to work

607
00:47:12.519 --> 00:47:15.519
every day and do that. Well. That is a beautiful way to close

608
00:47:15.559 --> 00:47:16.880
our show. Matt. I want
to thank you so much for coming on

609
00:47:17.320 --> 00:47:21.800
the show, sharing your passion,
your wisdom, your experience with our listeners.

610
00:47:21.800 --> 00:47:25.039
Thank you very much, Thank you
at least I really enjoyed our conversation

611
00:47:25.280 --> 00:47:28.880
well too. And if you want
to learn more about mat Chrichard and the

612
00:47:28.920 --> 00:47:31.360
work he does, one way to
start is visit mac's list dot org.

613
00:47:31.800 --> 00:47:36.360
You can find him that way and
learn more about Richard's communications as well,

614
00:47:36.559 --> 00:47:38.559
and then join us next week when
we're on the air with Steve YAVATRTA.

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We'll be talking about who's booking the
Things of Adversity. See you then when

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we're work is at least one third
of our life, so Work on Purpose.

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00:47:47.000 --> 00:47:51.559
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to tune in to

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Working on Purpose featuring your host Alas
Cortez, each week on the Voice America

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Empowerment Channel. This week, your
life's purpose at work