Logotherapy: A Way of Life to Meaning

WEBVTT

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There are some people that make their
work just another thing they have to do,

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and there are those that make their
work something that they want to do.

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Welcome to Working on Purpose with your
host Elise Cortes. In our program,

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we provide guidance and inspiration from those
people who have found deeper meaning and

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personal connection to their work life.
It's beyond nine to five. It's working

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on Purpose. Now Here is your
host, Elise Cortes. Welcome back to

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the Working on Purpose Show. Thanks
for tuning in again this week. I'm

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your host, Elise Cortes. Join
you live from Dallas, Texas, which

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is home base for me. If
you've been tuning in for a while,

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you know this program is all about
how people create more meaningful and productive personal

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and work lives, and equipping leaders
inside organizations to cultivate meaning and purpose that

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elicits passion inspired contribution, innovation,
and persevering performance. I talk with my

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guests to draw on their expertise and
share my own experience consulting, speaking and

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developing workforces across the globe. Every
week. In these conversations, I hope

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you walk away with something you can
immediately put to use in your life and

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that you come alive with the possibility
of living with passion, working on purpose,

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and are inspired to discover for yourself
just how big and fulfilling your life,

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work and leadership can be. And
if you do catch fire from anything

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you hear, reach out and tell
me about it. Email me at a

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lease at a least cooretest dot com, or use to contact me feature on

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my website to message me tell me
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join the distribution list to stay informed
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community. You want information on the
purpose driven leadership programs for individuals and companies

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offered on site or via webcast.
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speak for your company or conference at
any rate. I'm glad we're connected,

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and thanks again for listening. Now
onto this week's program with us, we

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have a wonderful guest. I'm happy
to say we find sure they're on LinkedIn.

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We have doctor batcha Janiger who is
the head trainer of the Victor Frankel

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Institute of Logo Therapy in Israel.
We'll be talking a bit about how she

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got into the space of her work
and how she works with her clients and

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also the work she does within organizations
using this technique. Doctor janner Gert,

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Welcome to Working on Purpose. Hi, Alisa, it's great to be here.

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It's so wonderful. As we were
saying before we got on the air,

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you know, the wonders of technology, the fact that you are literally

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there in Israel and I'm here in
Dallas, Texas. We're having this conversation

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and we're talking about things that both
of us love. It's really kind of

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miraculous, isn't it. Yes,
Yes, Well, before we really we

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get into your background and how you
got into this field, let's just start

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with. You know, the thing
that people are probably scratching their head with.

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What is logo therapy. Yeah,
people hear the word logo therapy,

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they say, does it have to
do with logos or whatever? Is this?

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So it's a psychotherapy, but it's
also a philosophy and a way of

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life. So that's why it's useful, not just in personal life and in

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work and everywhere you name it.
So it's based on three ideas. One

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is that we are not just motivated
by material incentives of money or status.

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We are basically motivated by higher cause, higher values. So for example,

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somebody who was a terminal cancer patient
had never displayed her artwork before, and

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now she's motivated by this value,
which really lifts her up out of her

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depressed state. And secondly, people
are free to choose meaningful options. So

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I had a client who said,
what can I do when I can't do

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anything? I just love that pavement
because she was severely restricted by her medical

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condition and disability. But she said, I can still do something. I

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can study, and she studied poetry, and she said, after that became

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a participant of life and not just
an observer of your life. And thirdly

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is that meaning is intrinsic to every
situation, so it's always there, even

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if it might be hidden sometimes.
So someone who feels like their bounds to

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a wheelchair, let's say, and
they say, but now I have more

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time to visit people. So there's
always something something you can find of meaning

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in the situation. Other branches of
psychology don't talk about values or faith in

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a hidden meaning because these ideas have
traditionally been the domain of religion, not

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psychology. Loco therapy says, don't
just look at a person's biology. Don't

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just look at their psychological makeup.
The laws of nature dictate that you'll continue

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the behavior patterns that have been programmed
into you, and they're just keeping you

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stuck. What about the parts of
being human that gets you unstuck? Like

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gratitude, a pre of nature,
music, other people, laughter, admitting

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your mistakes, recognizing values, overcoming
your limitations, accepting that life is sometimes

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difficult. All of these attitudes are
not part of the fixed psychological program in

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your head, and logo therapy talks
about these things. Adapting the attitude of

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gratitude, for example, ensures that
you'll selectively focus on the good and you'll

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stop complaining and you'll feel better about
life. So there's two parts to the

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perspective of how you can look at
yourself, and then there's the question of

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how you look at life. There's
a different way of looking at yourself in

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a different way of relating to life. So how do you look at yourself?

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In logo therapy, you feel that
you're free. You note that you're

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a free human being, that you
can decide things for yourself, and you're

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responsible, meaning you're able to respond
to what happens. You're not fixed in

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into a particular response, so you
don't have to talk about your needs all

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the time. You talk about how
you are needed in the world. And

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it's not that you don't validate people's
feelings, of course you do. But

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then you see that sadness or inner
conflict in the context of the space you

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fill in the world. For example, in one of the books, a

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couple of us their son and he
was the cause of a lot of unhappiness.

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And the therapist said, well,
until now he was the cause of

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unhappiness, but now his memory can
bring meaning to people. So don't talk

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about what happened to you, talk
about who you've become as a result of

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it. Oh isn't that just delicious? Oh my gosh, Bodyah. I

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love all of this. It just
drips of the wonder of what it is

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to be a human being that's equipped
with all of these emotions and the intellect

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and selfistivity to be able to hear
all this, experience all this and have

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it wash over us and make us
bigger and loved so much getting out this

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conversation with you. And it's important
too for our listeners to understand if this

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is their first brush with logo therapy. It's important that they understand a little

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bit more about the history and where
it came from. And of course I

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came across Victor Frankel's work when I
was doing my PhD starting back in nineteen

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ninety eight. But for the benefit
of our listeners, about to tell us

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a little bit about the history of
logo therapy and how Victor Frankel developed it.

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Yeah, sure so. Victor Frankel
was a psychiatrist and neurologist who lived

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in Vienna at the time of World
War Two. He was a contemporary of

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Freud and Adler and he knew them
personally. He was part of their society,

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but at one point he broke off
with them because their differences became too

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great, because they were focused on
the inner drives, as in Freud's psychodynamics

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and Adler's power wish for people to
belong to society. And frankl said,

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those things are very true, but
there's a whole piece that's missing from that.

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And as the head of the neurology
department at the Polyclinic hospital for twenty

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five years, he was thinking about
all of his ideas and eventually he established

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centers for suicide prevention for young people. Actually, even as a medical dac,

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as a medical student, he was
doing this. So when it came

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the time that Hitler rose to power
and Frankel, he actually had the opportunity

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to leave and go to America,
but he decided to stay with his parents,

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and because of that he ended up
being in four different concentration camps over

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the course of three years. But
his ideas had already been developed before that.

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People think that it only happened as
a result of the Holocaust, but

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he actually developed his his ideas before
and he wrote a book, a manuscript

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called The Doctor and the Soul.
This was actually his first book, and

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they forcefully took it from him when
he was in the Halcaust in the concentration

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camp, but he reconstructed it,
finding little pieces of paper to write his

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notes on it, until eventually it
was rewritten as a book. But then

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when he was what he found when
he was in the camps was that the

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same ideas that applied to people who
wanted to commit suicide applied here right because

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here too, people who had something
to live for were more likely to survive.

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You look at what they endured there
and how everything was taken from them

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their identity and their belongings and all
their freedoms. And yet Frankel says,

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people had the freedom to choose their
attitude in the face of the circumstances to

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not allow people to take that away
from them. So where somebody could give

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away their last piece of bread,
right had much more significance there to be

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free to do that than to be
free to give away your food, you

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know, when you have plenty stored
in the freezer. So where freedom is

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tested, that's where freedom is proven. So what the therapy would have been

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very different if frankl Headed had that
experience. But the result of his experience

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was that people could see him as
a model for themselves. So when you

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look at Maslow's pyramid of needs,
all that is true, and you can

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go all the way to the top
of the pyramid, but Frankel said,

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there's something higher still that's not even
a need. That you can transcend your

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needs and act for the sake of
something beyond yourself. I love all of

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that. I love all of that. So and the way you narrated that

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was just gorgeous. I got so
much out of that that I didn't have

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access to before. But yeah,
so thank you so much gorgeous. Now

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the next question I have to ask
you then, So this sounds, maybe

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to some people who are just listening
in like this is, you know,

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really out there esoteric kind of a
thing. Bring us back down to you

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know, grounded reality, if you
will, and help us understand why you

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think logo therapy is so important to
practice in today's world and what's going on

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that you think we need it so
badly? Well, what's going on today

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is a world which is very much
focused inward on the self. Partly there's

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a lot of reasons for it.
Partly because I'm not going to even say

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why, that's just the way it
is. Okay, people climb the ladder

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of success and then they ask what
is this all for? Suddenly they feel

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empty inside? You know, for
what purpose did I want all of this?

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Especially if my family won't talk to
me. And the trouble is they

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never had a for what to live
for. They thought that something external could

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give them meaning, or the world
comes crashing down on someone because of the

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tragedy and they don't know how to
handle it. When your whole orientation of

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life is me and meeting my needs, then when life doesn't go your way,

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what can you do? And you
see it on a global level as

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well. People crave meaning and purpose, but they don't know how to find

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it because their basic vector is off
course. They're stuck in this mindset of

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self preservation, need, satisfaction,
power over others. The result is you

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use everything and everyone as a means
to an end. I don't know how

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many of your listeners are familiar with
Buber with I it and IVOU, but

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Frankel's ideas are a little bit like
that. You know, the I it

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means you're only using people as a
means to an end for yourself, but

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you're not valuing them in and of
themselves. And that's what happens when you're

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seeing others just as an object for
your purposes, because the only yardstick is

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what I want. And this is
able to even meaning itself can be hijacked

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where people misunderstand what meaning is.
They say, what's meaningful for me to

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blow people up? So it depends
not what meaning is okay, because because

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that's focused on some kind of twisted
picture of the world, which which doesn't

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value the world, doesn't value everyone
in the world, and the collective neurosis.

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Adds to this the nihilism, determinism, reductionism, totalitarianism. These are

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the isms you know that Frankel knew
about in his day and actually haven't changed

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because the feeling and the atmosphere is
still filled with them. The idea that

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life is basically meaningless, the past
determines the future. You have no free

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choice. You're help us to change
anything. You're little more than a glorified

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machine or slightly more sophisticated animal.
And since you can't think for yourself,

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well, you should just go along
and do what everybody else tells you to

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do. So this is a very
dangerous kind of direction. It doesn't mean

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forget about what's good for you and
only the collective matters, right, because

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then you get into a different kind
of danger. Frankel said something revolutionary.

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He said, the individual matters to
the collective, but the collective only stands

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on the merit of the individuals that
make it up. He said that we

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are each unique, totally unique,
and irreplaceable. We are not like replaceable

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bricks in a building. We are
unique stones in a mosaic, and every

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person makes up this beautiful mosaic that
we make up together, all the individuals,

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all the nations, all the cultures, all the religions. Everybody in

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the world has something unique and special
to offer. And this is very much

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how Frankel looked at things. And
that's why. Look, the therapy is

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very universal in nature because it speaks
to what all human beings have in common,

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speaks to that common denominator, not
not the lowest common denominator, as

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Freud would have it, but the
highest common denominator of the nobility of being

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a human being. So the world
is like this dynamic, living organism,

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and you are here to play your
part. My son gave me a good

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idea once. He said that it's
like a jazz ensemble, right, because

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you know not I was saying life
is like an orchestra where everybody plays their

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notes, and he said, no, in a jazz ensemble, you don't

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even know what everybody else is going
to do, and you don't even know

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what you're going to do. But
you have to be very much attuned and

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listen to each other and feel you
know, when it's time to come in

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with something and how you're supposed to
fit into the part to make up some

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a beautiful sympathy so you know you
manner in particular because you are part of

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something greater than yourself. I hang
on every word, Boucha, and it

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is definitely the space that I occupy
as well, which is why I had

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to have you on the show.
And believe it or not, we're already

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at our first break segment. It
goes by so fast, So hold that

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thought. I've got more questions for
you. Okay, I'm your host,

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Alice Cortez. We're on here with
doctor Batcha Yanager who's the head trainer of

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the Victor Frankel Institute of Logo Therapy
in Israel. She's been teaching courses online

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in Israel and an instant bul for
the last ten years. After the break,

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we're going to talk a little bit
more about really the victim mentality and

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also how organizations start to use lago
therapy. Stay with us, we'll be

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right back. Alise Cortes is a
speaker and engagement and development catalyst. She

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designs and delivers professional development, leadership
and engagement workshops and can bring her expertise

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to your organization. She will help
ignite meaningful development within your workforce that will

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increase employee engagement performance and retention.
To learn more or to invite Elise to

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speak to your organization, please visit
her at www dot Elisecortes dot com.

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She would welcome the opportunity to help
get your employees working on purpose. This

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is working on Purpose with Elise Cortes. To reach our program today, send

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an email to a lease Alise at
Alisecortes dot com. Now back to working

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on purpose. Thanks for staying with
us a long actor working on Purpose.

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If you're just joining us. My
guest is doctor Batcha Yaniger. She's the

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head trainer of the Victor Frankel Institute
of Logo Therapy in Israel. We're going

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to talk a little bit next here
about some of the work that she does.

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And before we do that, though, we haven't really talked about your

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actual background, Batjen, and how
you got into this space. So you

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have been working in this field for
fifteen years, as I understand it.

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So a little bit about your background, how did you get into this and

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what did you do before? Okay, I was a social worker and I

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wanted to specialize in something and I
also wanted to improve my skills, and

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I read about logo therapy in a
book I probably had heard about man's search

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for meaning before, but this line
in a book about logo therapy said,

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we are pushed by our drives but
pulled by our values. Yes, that

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really resonated with me. And in
addition to that, I always was a

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kind of person who didn't want to
just accept what I heard at face value,

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and I wanted to think about it
for myself. If I felt something

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was wrong, I wanted to stand
up for it. So as a person,

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I've always had the defiant power in
me. That's a big part of

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who I am. I was a
quiet child, so you might not have

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noticed it, but it was something
that I really cared about and I wanted

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to stand up for it. I
didn't want to accept the status quo as

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it was. So that's how you
got exposed to logo therapy. And so

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you've been how it was. How
do you make the leap from social work

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into logo therapy. Well, I
took a course and doctor Teria Chantal,

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who studied from Victor Frankel, mentored
me, and I had cases that I

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brought to her and it went on
from there. Then we started a course

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together. I love it, which
we'll probably talk about a little bit later.

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In the show. But I want
to presence something you and I spoke

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about on the phone when we had
our initial conversation that I think will be

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important for our listeners. We will
recognize ourselfs in this sometimes and certainly other

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people that we know. And that's
the notion of the victim mentality that some

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of us walk around with and how
we can fall into. Well, bad

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things happened to us when we were
young, and that's why life is bad

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to us today as an adult.
Kind of a thing. Address that if

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you would, Yeah, I'll talk
about that. And I want to talk

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about three different kinds of perspectives that
people have. So two of them have

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to do with how you see yourself, and one is how you relate to

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the world. So the victim mentality
is comes from what I said before about

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determinism. In other words, if
your future is determined by your past,

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then you're just a victim of circumstance
and you can't change anything. So I

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have someone, for example, a
client who said I was handed the wrong

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deck of cards start just from the
beginning, you know, doesn't even want

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to accept that this is what she
has to deal with. So I had

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a student, for example, who
was in the hospital. She almost died,

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you know, she was she was
just had two different kinds of illness

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that caused a lot of problems.
And there was a girl next to her

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who had skin problems, and you
know, she was there with her mother,

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and she was doing nothing but complain
the whole time, and she said,

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can you get up and go to
the bathroom by yourself? Said yes,

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can you eat by yourself? Yes? Because she's asking her all these

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questions, and her mother says,
sir, look who's asking you these questions.

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Someone who can't do all these things. So, you know, so

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when all you're doing is complaining and
thinking you're a victim, you're going to

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be very bitter and unhappy and feel
like life is meaningless. So that's the

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first thing. The second is the
feeling that you have no free choice,

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you can't change something. So I
had a client who said, I'm never

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going to get married because I had
trauma as a child, you know,

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so I can't be in a serious
relationship. So when you feel like you're

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powerless, you really are powerless.
And then how you relate to the world

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when you have no authentic relationship.
As I talked about before, you have

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no dialogue. You know, you're
talking to another person as if it's a

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dialogue, but it's really a monologue. You know, people have these conversations,

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we're not really listening to each other. So clearly all these things cause

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problems in relationships, problems in work, you know, problems in every which

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way. So logo therapy gives us
a different way of thinking. Sorry,

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I jumped the gun and I'm asking
your question. I hope that's okay,

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that's great, let's hit it.
Yeah, So logo therapy gives us a

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different way of thinking and approaching life. So logo therapy says there's a different

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lens through which you can see yourself
and relate to the world. The victim

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instead of saying I am helpless,
and you say, I'm not coned by

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the circumstances. I've been given a
certain deck of cards. But what am

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I going to do with that deck
of cards? So that student who was

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in the hospital and almost died said
I refuse to die. She really represented

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the defiant powers. She said,
no, this is not going to be

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the end of me, you know, So what am I going to do

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with what I've given? If your
parents treated you wrongly. So does that

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mean you have to do the same
thing. No, now you're responsible for

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changing that and the question of choice. So there are a lot of limitations.

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Everyone has limitations. But what can
you change? What is your area

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of freedom? And finally, how
do you relate to the world. So

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the word responsibility is a word that
people are afraid of, you know,

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because you know that means that what
I do really matters and you know and

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if I do the wrong thing,
it's going to be problematic for people.

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Well that's true, but it means
the opposite as well. It means every

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little thing you do matters and has
an important impact. So the idea of

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being response able hyphenate that word.
It means you're able to respond and not

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react. To react means that your
emotions are controlling you. But to respond

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means you are recognizing that you're in
a situation. It's kind of like listening

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to the situation, even if it's
not listening to another person. You're listening

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to the situation that has something that's
inviting you to do something, and you're

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assessing what it's inviting you to do
and what your response needs to be.

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So you talked before about, you
know, being human, like that's the

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essence of being human. Frankel says
that responsibility, you know, Loco therapy

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is an education, and responsibility is
basically, in a word, what it

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is is it's that transcendence being able
to reach beyond yourself and to be able

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to respond to what life is asking
from you. You kind of look at

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life as this great dialogue of questions
and answers. Life is asking you questions

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and you answer the questions. So
one of the things that's under that for

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me, and it's something you and
I have briefly alluded to as well that

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I think is really important to call
out here. It's this idea of choice

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and its relationship to control. So
if we are response able, that means

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that there's some choice in that.
So if talk to us a little bit

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about how choice and control are related. Right, So, I've had challenges

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in my life where I felt,
uh oh, now I'm not in control,

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and this time I am in control, you know, And it's kind

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of like you pick these flowers,
you know, he loves me, loves

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me. Now I'm in control,
not in control. I'm in control,

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not in control. No choice is
not about I'm in control, and I

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can choose. The value of choice
is your capacity to recognize what is a

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meaningful choice. Your awareness is what
makes choice such a valuable thing, because,

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if you think about it, a
child who is not aware of what's

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valuable, who doesn't know how to
make those assessments, cannot make the kinds

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of choices that you can make as
an adult. Right, but you recognize

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what's meaningful, you're able to act
on what's meaningful and take reasonable risks for

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it. But instead, people don't
think for themselves. They don't pay attention,

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they're ruled by their feelings. They're
not accessing their inner voice of wisdom,

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which is which is what logo therapy
is all about. Was logo therapy

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is trying to teach. Oh see, I'll never tire of these kinds of

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conversations because to me they're so so
rich with Well, one important ingredient is

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meaning and that's the next thing I
wanted to ask you about. So as

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you're talking and you're really sharing your
true expertise in this field and helping us

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understand more of how it works and
why it's important, what I want to

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get to next is when you talk
about being you mentioned the notion about meaning

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meaning being everywhere. How do you
in your practice, how do you coach

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or help people become more present to
meaning or get access to it? Right.

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So, there's a statement by someone
by the name of Carolyn mess who

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is a medical intuitive. I think
she's retired now, but she said a

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very interesting statement, liars don't heal, even from the medical standpoint. She

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talked about how when you're really honest
with yourself, how important that is even

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to your you know, your physical
health, because there's something out of I

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whack inside your system. So when
you say, like I knew that I

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shouldn't have done that, and I
did, right, So you realize that

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you know what the meaning is in
hindsight, and if you would only listen

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to that inner voice beforehand, then
you wouldn't have made the mistake. So

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it's a matter of getting into the
habit of being honest with yourself, you

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know, really asking yourself what is
the truth? Now, people hear the

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word truth and they get a little
bit scared off by it, like they

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get scared by the word responsibility because
they think of this great, big truth,

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But what does truth mean? It
means knowing what is the truth of

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the situation that I'm in, Like, for example, you know, what

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is this person going to be sensitive
to? Then maybe I should be careful

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with them, or you know,
what is my understanding of what needs to

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be done here? Right, So
so you understand the situation, you understand

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yourself, and you understand who are
in relationship to the situation. So when

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you recognize the truth of all of
those sides of things, then then you

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get a little bit closer. And
there are all kinds of techniques like meditation

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and you know, walking out in
nature and you know, being quiet with

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yourself, you know, just like
people talk about how to get in tune

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with your intuition. But I think
the difference is when you talk about conscience

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or you know, the conscience is
what picks up the meaning. It's it's

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more than intuition because it's recognizing the
whole picture of what is in front of

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you and what it requires of you. So loco therapy is not really a

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conversation between you and the other person. It's really facilitating a conversation between that

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person and his or her conscience.
So it's this antenna, this restless kind

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of search tuning in like a radio
transmission. You have to tune into it

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all the time. Oh Batcha.
I love that. And the way that

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you bring this stuff to life is
just so accessible. And on that note,

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let's grab our last break if we
can. I'm your host, Aalise

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Cortes. We've been on the air
with doctor Batcha Janiger. She is the

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head trainer of the Victor Franklin Institute
of Logo Therapy in Israel and she's been

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teaching courses online and an Israeli instanable
over the last ten years. We've been

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talking a bit about some of the
work that she does in terms of accessing

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this connection of logo therapy to her
clients. After the break, we're going

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to do two things. We're going
to have our share an example of someone

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she's worked with in that capacity,
and then get on to talking about logo

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therapy and organizations that work. Stay
with us, We'll be right back.

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Alice Cortez is a speaker and engagement
and development catalyst. She designs and delivers

386
00:30:52.839 --> 00:30:59.559
professional development, leadership and engagement workshops
and can bring her expertise to your organization,

387
00:31:00.200 --> 00:31:04.720
helpinggnite meaningful development within your workforce that
will increase employee engagement, performance and

388
00:31:04.839 --> 00:31:08.799
retention. To learn more or to
invite Elise to speak to your organization,

389
00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:15.880
please visit her at www dot elisecortes
dot com. She would welcome the opportunity

390
00:31:15.920 --> 00:31:26.039
to help get your employees working on
purpose. This is working on Purpose with

391
00:31:26.119 --> 00:31:30.720
Elise Cortes. To reach our program
today, send an email to a lease

392
00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:41.640
Alise at elisecortes dot com. Now
back to working on purpose. Thanks Christine

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Richus, and welcome back to working
on purpose. If you're just tuning in,

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my guest is doctor Bata Janiger.
She's the head trainer of the Victor

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Franklin Institute of Bloggle Therapy in Israel. We've been talking a bit about her

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work, how she got into it
and now here I think it makes a

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lot of sense. We've been talking
a lot about why this stuff works and

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how you get access to it.
Botscha. But now if you can share

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with us an example of someone you've
worked with who has benefited from working with

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you in a logo therapy logo therapeutic
relationship. Okay, so before I tell

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you about this person, I want
to just introduce when you're working with any

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person, there's a kernel of good
in every person. And there's a kernel

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of good in every situation. So
that's what you're always looking for, whether

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it's in work or therapy or in
a personal scale. You take their good

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motivation, and you know, the
road to hell is paved with good motivation.

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But take that good motivation and add
awareness to it, you know,

407
00:32:38.799 --> 00:32:44.279
take the challenges and learn from your
experience how to do better next time.

408
00:32:44.400 --> 00:32:49.039
Use the experience to become more compassionate, more aware, more attentive, and

409
00:32:49.119 --> 00:32:52.359
more present. Turn it around.
Local therapy is always about turning things around

410
00:32:53.319 --> 00:33:00.240
and facilitate that conversation with their conscience
to learn from the sign of your feelings

411
00:33:00.599 --> 00:33:06.839
what you need and not to let
your feelings just dominate you. So your

412
00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:13.160
feelings could be telling you you have
certain needs for protection, for whatever it

413
00:33:13.279 --> 00:33:15.960
is, but it could also be
the need to stop telling yourself that you're

414
00:33:16.200 --> 00:33:21.279
unworthy. So in this case,
my client was always telling herself she was

415
00:33:21.400 --> 00:33:23.359
unworthy. You know, she didn't
get her needs met as a child.

416
00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:30.519
She played by yourself. And so
you don't give meaning to the person,

417
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:35.000
you help them to find the meaning. So once I helped her to see

418
00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:37.799
herself from the outside, which is
one of the techniques of logo therapy,

419
00:33:38.880 --> 00:33:43.839
she was able to look at herself
more objectively, and it was a lesson

420
00:33:43.920 --> 00:33:49.400
in control. As I spoke about
control before as opposed to choice. She

421
00:33:49.480 --> 00:33:53.720
realized she can only change her attitude
towards what's happening. She can't control people

422
00:33:53.799 --> 00:34:00.519
in situations and make it be different
than it is, so the results are

423
00:34:00.599 --> 00:34:05.680
not necessarily up to her. And
eventually there was a shift from needing affirmation

424
00:34:05.839 --> 00:34:09.920
from the outside to wanting to give
from the inside. So when she was

425
00:34:10.159 --> 00:34:14.159
deciding, I'm a mother with a
small child, you know, do I

426
00:34:14.199 --> 00:34:17.079
want to go out and work in
the outside, and she said, yeah,

427
00:34:17.199 --> 00:34:22.320
you know, but her wanting to
do it was too forcing it on

428
00:34:22.519 --> 00:34:24.079
the world, you know, it
was too much, but coming from a

429
00:34:24.119 --> 00:34:30.079
place of needing to prove herself right, Whereas now once she made that shift,

430
00:34:30.360 --> 00:34:37.519
she flowed from the inside and things
started to materialize and she recognized that

431
00:34:37.559 --> 00:34:40.960
she didn't need that confirmation anymore.
She just wanted it because she wanted it,

432
00:34:42.159 --> 00:34:45.559
you know. And then that really
made things very different for her.

433
00:34:45.039 --> 00:34:47.880
Oh wow, that's so beautiful,
and I can I can absolutely see that

434
00:34:49.480 --> 00:34:52.719
talk about being able to give a
person a new place to stand from in

435
00:34:52.800 --> 00:34:54.360
life, if you will, and
how they interact and play with life.

436
00:34:55.079 --> 00:34:59.880
How liberating that must be for her. And I wanted to make sure that

437
00:34:59.880 --> 00:35:04.400
you did share an example because otherwise
this just sounds so for maybe for a

438
00:35:04.400 --> 00:35:07.599
lot of people esoterics. And so
the next thing I want to do is

439
00:35:07.639 --> 00:35:09.599
now bring it into the workspace.
And so much of the work that I

440
00:35:09.679 --> 00:35:15.119
do is really helping organizations to be
able to develop their people and help them

441
00:35:15.519 --> 00:35:20.000
discover and grow their purpose and to
work from that vantage point. I'd love

442
00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:22.760
it if you could start to share
a little bit about how you've seen logo

443
00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:29.360
therapy used in work scenarios. Right, So the work. Purpose is an

444
00:35:29.400 --> 00:35:34.280
important word, you know, because
it's used in work the workspace. And

445
00:35:34.360 --> 00:35:37.840
I was thinking to myself, what
is the difference between purpose and meaning?

446
00:35:37.679 --> 00:35:44.440
And I think that purpose is what
I'm here to do and meaning is in

447
00:35:44.480 --> 00:35:47.480
the context of a mission. Now, you know, a mission sounds like

448
00:35:49.000 --> 00:35:52.480
whoa, you know, very big
word, but it can be a very

449
00:35:52.519 --> 00:35:57.599
small mission too. It's it's it's
not always what you think you're here to

450
00:35:57.679 --> 00:36:00.400
do. Because that's the difference.
You know your purpose, you know you

451
00:36:00.440 --> 00:36:02.960
set out you know, I have
this purpose. I have this plan and

452
00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:07.679
then so I don't need to get
sidetracked. And this happens to people in

453
00:36:07.760 --> 00:36:12.079
work all the time. So the
same way you work with people in any

454
00:36:12.159 --> 00:36:16.320
context in a personal context is how
you work and work as well. Because

455
00:36:16.480 --> 00:36:22.360
managers just want their workers to to
care about the company, you know,

456
00:36:22.400 --> 00:36:27.840
to realize the value of the company, to to think about how they can

457
00:36:27.880 --> 00:36:31.400
contribute, you know. And the
workers will be more motivated if they they

458
00:36:31.440 --> 00:36:37.719
identify with the company as having value
and they identify with themselves as having something

459
00:36:37.800 --> 00:36:43.480
of value to contribute to the company. So all the same principles apply.

460
00:36:44.159 --> 00:36:47.000
Now I want to give an example
and I'm not going to give an example

461
00:36:47.079 --> 00:36:52.519
from my own. I don't work, to admit it, you know,

462
00:36:52.519 --> 00:36:57.679
I don't work with organizations. But
one of my students, many of my

463
00:36:57.719 --> 00:37:00.760
students do, right, So,
one of my students had a boss who

464
00:37:00.880 --> 00:37:06.840
was yelling at him for not doing
his job. And the truth is he

465
00:37:06.920 --> 00:37:09.159
really was not doing his job.
He fell asleep at a job and he

466
00:37:09.559 --> 00:37:15.960
it cost the company h and and
he but he wanted so badly to succeed

467
00:37:16.559 --> 00:37:22.760
that he took it on even though
he knew he was exhausted, so you

468
00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:28.679
know. So, so the idea
is is let that person see instead of

469
00:37:28.719 --> 00:37:30.679
being angry at the boss, you
know, help that person to see from

470
00:37:30.679 --> 00:37:37.239
the boss's point of view and and
also to understand his own needs more like,

471
00:37:37.320 --> 00:37:38.920
you know, do you really want
to work here? You know?

472
00:37:38.960 --> 00:37:42.760
Why? Why do you think it's
good for you? So, so all

473
00:37:42.840 --> 00:37:45.679
the questions you ask to get a
person to understand themselves better, to understand

474
00:37:45.760 --> 00:37:51.000
who they are in the context and
what kind of role they're playing, you

475
00:37:51.039 --> 00:37:54.039
know, is all part of that. I want to mention. Just you

476
00:37:54.039 --> 00:37:59.800
know, one other example, somebody
by the name of Memda ost Merit who

477
00:38:00.599 --> 00:38:05.280
is in Turkey. So he works
a lot with loco therapy and organizations,

478
00:38:05.960 --> 00:38:09.000
so I know. So he has
this approach called how to be a successful

479
00:38:09.079 --> 00:38:15.840
Optimist and using logo therapy in the
in the work environment. And he has

480
00:38:15.880 --> 00:38:21.480
these principles, five principles you know, which I won't go into. But

481
00:38:22.039 --> 00:38:24.719
he gets people in touch with their
values. You know. So there was

482
00:38:24.760 --> 00:38:30.159
a woman who was forced into retirement
because of the economic crisis, and she

483
00:38:30.280 --> 00:38:34.760
decided not to work for that industry
anymore. She was working in the banking

484
00:38:34.960 --> 00:38:39.760
industry. She decided to become a
social entrepreneur. So she got a partner,

485
00:38:39.920 --> 00:38:45.239
but she was very nervous about it, you know, because she's really

486
00:38:45.239 --> 00:38:50.239
going to make a living doing this. And he talked to her about her

487
00:38:50.320 --> 00:38:54.519
values and those values, how those
values that why she wants to do it.

488
00:38:55.480 --> 00:39:02.159
She could keep those in mind whenever
the thought came cross of I'm unsuccessful.

489
00:39:02.280 --> 00:39:05.000
You know, I don't know if
I'm going to succeed at this.

490
00:39:05.400 --> 00:39:07.480
Okay, but why do you care
about? Why is this important to you

491
00:39:07.559 --> 00:39:12.320
to do? You know, because
like that conversation going back and forth in

492
00:39:12.360 --> 00:39:15.960
her head, you know, helped
her to get out of that good good

493
00:39:15.960 --> 00:39:17.440
good. Okay. That's very helpful. And I think at this point it

494
00:39:17.480 --> 00:39:22.639
probably makes a lot of sense since
you talked about you don't personally do exercise

495
00:39:22.719 --> 00:39:27.360
or use loco therapy as organizations,
but your students do. I think it

496
00:39:27.400 --> 00:39:30.599
would be interesting for our listeners to
understand a little bit about the courses that

497
00:39:30.679 --> 00:39:34.280
you teach, and so I know, you teach them online and you also

498
00:39:34.880 --> 00:39:39.559
teach in Israel and instantbul So a
little bit about who comes to your courses

499
00:39:39.679 --> 00:39:44.800
and what are they looking for?
Okay, So the people who come to

500
00:39:44.800 --> 00:39:51.880
my courses are psychotherapists and social workers
and school counselors, health professionals, life

501
00:39:51.880 --> 00:39:57.480
coaches, psychology students. They're mostly
people who are in the mental health field.

502
00:39:58.480 --> 00:40:01.599
And what they say is, I'm
doing this already. I do this

503
00:40:01.760 --> 00:40:07.239
naturally, and now I want to
learn how to do it because because I

504
00:40:07.320 --> 00:40:09.800
really it really resonates with me,
is this is what I do, and

505
00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:14.000
I believe in it. I believe
in the focus on the spirit of the

506
00:40:14.039 --> 00:40:17.760
person. But what was also important
to me? You know, they say

507
00:40:17.760 --> 00:40:21.559
it's the missing piece. You know, so what was important to me?

508
00:40:21.599 --> 00:40:27.320
If it's the missing piece, then
how did your practice change after you learned

509
00:40:27.400 --> 00:40:30.880
logo after you added logo therapy to
it. And they had a lot to

510
00:40:30.920 --> 00:40:34.719
say about that. They said that
they gave their clients more self confidence,

511
00:40:35.199 --> 00:40:39.320
trust in their inner wisdom. They're
able to face challenges and problems in a

512
00:40:39.639 --> 00:40:45.480
more positive attitude, see struggles in
the context of what their life is about,

513
00:40:45.079 --> 00:40:52.039
improve their decision making skills, help
them with their panic attacks, you

514
00:40:52.079 --> 00:40:58.159
know, all kinds of things,
you know, seeing seeing struggles as opportunities.

515
00:40:58.840 --> 00:41:00.639
I always think of the high bar
and the Olympics. You know,

516
00:41:01.119 --> 00:41:05.719
the bar's not there as a barrier, but it's there for you to jump

517
00:41:05.760 --> 00:41:09.360
over it, right, So you
know, so having this just whole perspective

518
00:41:09.400 --> 00:41:14.960
on life helping with their clients much
much more than before. And I want

519
00:41:14.960 --> 00:41:20.280
to add that the online course,
what people say that they appreciate about it

520
00:41:20.320 --> 00:41:22.599
is that it provides a space for
people to be heard. And I talked

521
00:41:22.639 --> 00:41:27.960
before about how every person has a
space from place to be in the world

522
00:41:28.039 --> 00:41:31.880
from different places. So the fact
that people from all its international online,

523
00:41:32.119 --> 00:41:37.039
all people from all over the world
take part. So they like being able

524
00:41:37.039 --> 00:41:40.000
to hear people from different places what
they have to say, and hear different

525
00:41:40.039 --> 00:41:45.400
perspectives, and to be able to
talk about how it applies personally without a

526
00:41:45.519 --> 00:41:51.400
deteriorating into just a bunch of chit
chat. So people appreciate that, m

527
00:41:51.840 --> 00:41:53.840
so do I. And part of
what I love about hosting the show a

528
00:41:53.840 --> 00:41:58.880
Batya is a couple of things.
One is that I love getting to talk

529
00:41:58.920 --> 00:42:01.320
with people across the globe like you. Now, I know you're originally from

530
00:42:01.360 --> 00:42:05.000
the Chicago area here in the United
States and now you live in Israel,

531
00:42:05.280 --> 00:42:07.280
but you and I are having a
conversation from across the globe, and I

532
00:42:07.320 --> 00:42:12.360
love that you're coming in and you're
sharing your expertise and your wisdom and your

533
00:42:12.400 --> 00:42:15.519
knowledge and your passion with us,
and that is incredible for me. And

534
00:42:15.519 --> 00:42:20.400
then the other part of that is
that I feel connected to the rest of

535
00:42:20.440 --> 00:42:22.559
the world and I do see myself
as a citizen of the planet. Yes,

536
00:42:22.599 --> 00:42:27.480
I'm an American, but I feel
connected to the planet because of having

537
00:42:27.559 --> 00:42:31.000
these kinds of conversations the way that
we do, and it's incredibly meaningful for

538
00:42:31.119 --> 00:42:37.880
me. Yeah. So on that
note, here we are. We've managed,

539
00:42:37.920 --> 00:42:40.599
as the car Tek guys used to
say, to waste another perfectly wonderful

540
00:42:40.639 --> 00:42:45.199
hour together talking about the things that
you and I love. You know,

541
00:42:45.360 --> 00:42:51.519
this show now is listen to listen
to people across the globe and they're really

542
00:42:51.840 --> 00:42:57.079
here. I'm really here to try
to help them find more meaningful and purposeful

543
00:42:57.360 --> 00:43:01.199
lives and work. So given that
contact of listenership, what would you legedly

544
00:43:01.199 --> 00:43:05.440
were listeners with today? So I
would like to leave you with the idea

545
00:43:05.599 --> 00:43:09.960
that it's very easy to see things
in a dichotomous way, you know,

546
00:43:10.039 --> 00:43:15.960
to see how different people are from
us, and to see how your mind

547
00:43:16.039 --> 00:43:21.000
is different from your heart. It
tells you different things, and the future

548
00:43:21.119 --> 00:43:28.360
vision is different from what's happening now, and all these dichotomies that can be

549
00:43:28.519 --> 00:43:32.800
brought together. Actually that the fact
that someone is different from you, instead

550
00:43:32.840 --> 00:43:37.880
of being a wedge that drives you
apart, it can be a reason to

551
00:43:38.199 --> 00:43:42.559
be curious, to say, you
know, this person is something I can

552
00:43:42.719 --> 00:43:46.840
learn from and I have something to
teach them. And it goes beyond just

553
00:43:47.079 --> 00:43:53.360
tolerance. It goes to the point
of of you know, of one of

554
00:43:53.400 --> 00:43:59.480
this mutual quest together. You know, and even even a worker can teach

555
00:43:59.800 --> 00:44:05.400
the manager, and the manager can
learn from the worker. So so to

556
00:44:05.519 --> 00:44:10.840
heal and to be successful in life
and to feel good about yourself, you

557
00:44:10.920 --> 00:44:15.679
can't. You can't just do techniques, you know, and and and self

558
00:44:15.719 --> 00:44:20.960
help kind of stuff. You know, you have to be human, you

559
00:44:20.960 --> 00:44:22.639
know, you have to access your
human qualities. You have to really ask

560
00:44:22.679 --> 00:44:30.639
yourself, what are the human qualities
that allow you to really really free you?

561
00:44:30.639 --> 00:44:35.119
You know, that allow you to
be yourself in the in the fullest

562
00:44:35.159 --> 00:44:39.000
way and to be connected in the
fullest way. Because meaning is always in

563
00:44:39.159 --> 00:44:45.239
relationship to another, you know,
relationship to some kind of connection with something

564
00:44:45.360 --> 00:44:50.280
beyond yourself. Wow, what a
perfectly delicious way to finish. Got cha

565
00:44:50.880 --> 00:44:53.679
for me, There's there's so much
in that. There's there's authenticity, there's

566
00:44:53.760 --> 00:44:58.920
passion, there's inspiration, there's connection, there's relationship. It's all in there,

567
00:44:58.960 --> 00:45:02.159
and I love how you have situated
your field and given us access to

568
00:45:02.199 --> 00:45:06.480
it. I thank you so much
for joining us on working a Purpose today

569
00:45:06.519 --> 00:45:08.679
and sharing your heart and soul with
us. Thank you. I'm so glad

570
00:45:08.760 --> 00:45:13.199
to be part of it. You
know, it's great to talk about just

571
00:45:13.239 --> 00:45:16.639
the title of your show, working
for Purpose. It's a great it's a

572
00:45:16.679 --> 00:45:22.000
great mission that you have. Thank
you. I think so too. I'm

573
00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:25.280
committed to it and I enjoy every
moment I get to wake up and live

574
00:45:25.320 --> 00:45:30.199
my purpose. So for you listeners, if you want to learn more about

575
00:45:30.199 --> 00:45:32.719
Bacha Janiger and the work she's doing
at the Victor Franklin Institute of Logo Therapy

576
00:45:32.760 --> 00:45:37.679
in Israel, go to her website. It's get this. The Meaningseeker dot

577
00:45:37.800 --> 00:45:43.519
org is not a perfect url.
The Meaningseeker dot org. You can learn

578
00:45:43.519 --> 00:45:46.119
more about the work that she's doing
and some of her courses there. Remember

579
00:45:46.159 --> 00:45:50.000
that works at least one third of
our life, So let's work on course.

580
00:45:53.239 --> 00:45:57.800
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to tune in to

581
00:45:57.960 --> 00:46:02.039
Working on Purpose, featuring your host
Alis Cortes, each week on the Voice

582
00:46:02.079 --> 00:46:07.320
America Empowerment Channel. This week,
find your life's purpose at work.