Logotherapy: A Way of Life to Meaning

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There are some people that make their
work just another thing they have to do,

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and there are those that make their
work something that they want to do.

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Welcome to Working on Purpose with your
host Elise Cortez. In our program,

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we provide guidance and inspiration from those
people who have found deeper meaning and

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personal connection to their work life.
It's beyond nine to five. It's working

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on Purpose. Now Here is your
host, Elise Cortez. Welcome back to

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the Working on Purpose Show. Thanks
for tuning in again this week. I'm

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your host, Elise Cortez. John
you live from Dallas, Texas, which

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is homebase for me. If you've
been tuning in for a while, you

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know this program is all about helping
people create more meaningful and productive personal and

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work lives and equipping leaders inside rganizations
to cultivate meaning and purpose that elicits passion

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inspired contribution, innovation, and persevering
performance. I talk with my guests to

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draw on their ex ratise and term
my own experience consulting, speaking and developing

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workforces across the globe. Every week. In these conversations, I hope you

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walk away with something you can immediately
put to use in your life that you

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come alive with a possibility of living
with passion, working on purpose, and

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are inspired to discover it for yourself. Just how big and fulfilling your life,

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work and leadership can be. And
if you do catch fire from anything

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you hear, reach out and tell
me about it. Email me at ease

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to message me tell me I can
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You want information on the purpose driven
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on site or via webcast. Or
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for your company or conference at any
rate. I'm glad we're connected, and

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thanks again for listening. Now onto
this week's program with us, we have

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a wonderful guest. I'm happy to
say we find sure they're on LinkedIn.

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We have Bacha Yanager, who is
the head trainer of the Victor Frankel Institute

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of Logo Therapy in Israel. We'll
be talking a bit about how she got

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into the space of her work and
how she works with her clients, and

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also the work she does within organizations
using this technique. Doctor Yana, Welcome

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to working on Purpose. Hi at
Lisa, it's great to be here.

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It's so wonderful, as if we
were saying before we got on the air,

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you know, the wonders of technology, the fact that you are literally

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there in Israel and I'm here in
Dallas, Texas. We're having this conversation

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and we're talking about things that both
of us love. It's it's really kind

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of miraculous, isn't it. Yes, Yes, Well, before we really

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we get into your background and how
you got into this field, let's just

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start with you know, the thing
that people are probably scratching their head with,

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what is logo therapy. Yeah,
people hear the word logo therapy,

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they say, does it have to
do with logos or so it's it's a

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psychotherapy. But it's also a philosophy
in a way of life. So that's

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why it's useful, not just in
personal life and work and everywhere you name

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it. So it's based on three
ideas. One is that we are not

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just motivated by material incentives of money
or status. We are basically motivated by

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a higher cause, higher values.
So for example, somebody who was a

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terminal cancer patient had never displayed her
artwork before, and now she's motivated by

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this value, which really lifts her
up out of her depressed state. And

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secondly, people are free to choose
meaningful options. So I had a client

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who said, what can I do
when I can't do anything? I just

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love their stayment because she was severely
restricted by her medical condition and disability.

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But she said, I can still
do something. I can study, and

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she studied poetry, and she said
after that became a participant of life,

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not just an observer of your life. And thirdly is that meaning is intrinsic

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to every situation, So it's always
there, even if it might be hidden

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sometimes. So someone who feels like
their their bounds to a wheelchair, let's

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say, and they say, but
now I have more time to visit people,

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you know, So there's always something
something you can find of meaning in

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the situation. Other branches of psychology
don't talk about values or faith in a

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hidden meaning because these ideas have traditionally
been the domain of religion, not psychology.

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Loco therapy says, don't just look
at a person's biology. Don't just

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look at their psychological makeup. The
laws of nature dictate that you'll continue the

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behavior patterns that have been programmed into
you, and they're just keeping you stuck.

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What about the parts of being human
that gets you unstuck? Like gratitude,

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a of nature, music, other
people, laughter, admitting your mistakes,

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recognizing values, overcoming your limitations,
accepting that life is sometimes difficult.

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All of these attitudes are not part
of the fixed psychological program in your head,

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and logo therapy talks about these things. Adapting the attitude of gratitude,

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for example, ensures that you'll selectively
focus on the good and you'll stop complaining

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and you'll feel better about life.
So there's two parts to the perspective of

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how you can look at yourself,
and then there's the question of how you

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look at life. There's a different
way of look at yourself in a different

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way of relating to life. So
how do you look at yourself? In

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logo therapy, you feel that you're
free. You note that you're a free

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human being, that you can decide
things for yourself, and you're responsible,

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meaning you're able to respond to what
happens. You're not fixed into a particular

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response, So you don't have to
talk about your needs all the time.

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You talk about how you are needed
in the world. And it's not that

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you don't validate people's feelings, of
course you do. But then you see

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that sadness or inner conflict in the
context of the space you fill in the

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world. For example, in one
of the books, a couple lost their

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son, and you know, he
was the cause of a lot of unhappiness.

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And the therapist said, well,
until now he was the cause of

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unhappiness, but now his memory can
bring meaning to people. So don't talk

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about what happened to you, talk
about who you've become as a result of

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it. Well, isn't that just
delicious? Oh my gosh, Bob,

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Yeah, I love all of this. It just drips of the wonder of

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what it is to be a human
being that's equipped with all of these emotions

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and the intellect and activity to be
able to hear all this, experience all

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this and have it wash over us
and make us bigger. And I love

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so much he didn't have this conversation
with you. And and it's important too

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for our listeners to understand if this
is their first brush with logotherapy. It's

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important that they understand a little bit
more about the history and where it came

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from. And of course I came
across Victor Frankel's work when I was doing

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my PhD starting back in nineteen ninety
eight. But for the benefit of our

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listeners, but ya tell us a
little bit about the history of logo therapy

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and how Victor Frankel developed it.
Yeah, sure so. Victor Frankel was

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a psychiatrist and neurologist who lived in
Vienna at the time of World War Two.

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He was a contemporary of Freud and
Adler and he knew them personally.

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He was part of their society,
but at one point he broke off with

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them because their differences became too great, because they were focused on the inner

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drives, as in Freud's psychodynamics and
Adler's power, you know, which for

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people to belong to society. And
Frankel said, those things are very true,

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but there's a whole piece that's missing
from that. And as the head

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of the neurology department at the Polyclinic
hospital for twenty five years, he was

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thinking about all of his ideas and
eventually he established centers for suicide prevention for

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young people. Actually, even as
a medical as a medical student, he

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was doing this. So when it
came the time that Hitler rose to power

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and Frankel, he actually had the
opportunity to leave in goes Go America,

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but he decided to stay with his
parents, and because of that he ended

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up being in four different concentration camps
over the course of three years. But

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his ideas had already been developed before
that. People think that it only happened

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as a result of the Holocaust,
but but he actually developed his his ideas

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before and he wrote a book,
a manuscript called The Doctor and the Soul.

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This was actually his first book,
and they forcefully took it from him

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when he was in the Houcuss in
the concentration camp, but he reconstructed it,

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finding little pieces of paper to write
his notes on it and until eventually

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it was rewritten as a book.
But then when he was what he found

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when he was in the camps was
that the same ideas that applied to people

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who wanted to commit suicide applied here
right because here too, people who had

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something to live for were more likely
to survive. You look at what they

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endured there and how everything was taken
from them, their identity and their belongings

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and all their freedoms. And yet
Frankel says people had the freedom to choose

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their attitude in the face of the
circumstances to not allow people to take that

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away from them. So where somebody
could give away their last piece of bread,

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right had much more significance there to
be free to do that than to

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be free to give away your food, you know, when you have plenty

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stored in the freezer. So where
freedom is tested, that's where freedom is

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proven. So what the therapy would
have been very different if Frankel headed had

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that experience. But the result of
his experience was that people could see him

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as a model for themselves. So
when you look at Maslow's pyramid of needs,

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all of that is true, and
you can go all the way to

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the top of the pyramid. But
Frankel said, there's something higher still that's

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not even a need, that you
can transcend your needs and act for the

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sake of something beyond yourself. I
love all of that. I love all

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of that, And the way you
narrated that was just gorgeous. I got

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so much out of that that I
didn't have access to before. But yeah,

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so thank you so much gorgeous.
Now the next question I have to

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ask you then, So this sounds
maybe to some people who are just listening

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in like this is, you know, really out there esoteric kind of a

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thing. Bring us back down to
you know, grounded reality, if you

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will, and help us understand why
you think logotherapy is so important to practice

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in today's world and what's going on
that you think we needed so badly?

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Well, what's going on today is
a world which is very much focused inward

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on the self. Partly there's a
lot of reasons for it. Partly because

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I'm not going to even say why, That's just the way it is.

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Okay, people climb the ladder of
success and then they ask what is this

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all for? Suddenly they feel empty
inside? You know, for what purpose

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did I want all of this?
Especially if my family won't talk to me.

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And the trouble is they never had
a for what to live for.

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They thought that something external could give
them meaning, or the world comes crashing

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down on someone because of the tragedy
and they don't know how to handle it.

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When your whole orientation of life is
meat and meeting my needs, then

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when life doesn't go your way?
What can you do? And you see

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it on a global level as well. People crave meaning and purpose, but

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they don't know how to find it
because their basic vector is off course.

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They're stuck in this mindset of self
preservation, need, satisfaction, power over

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others. The result is you use
everything and everyone as a means to an

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end. I don't know how many
of your listeners are familiar with uber,

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with I it and I vow,
but Frankel's ideas are a little bit like

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that. You know, it means
you're only using people as a means to

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an end for yourself. You're not
valuing them in and of themselves. And

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that's what happens when you're seeing others
just as an object for your purposes,

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because the only yardstick is what I
want, and this is able to be

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high and meaning itself can be hijacked
where people misunderstand what meaning is. They

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say, what's meaningful for me to
blow people up? So the pends not

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what meaning is hey, because because
that's focused on some kind of twisted picture

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of the world, which which doesn't
value the world, doesn't value everyone in

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the world, and the collective neurosis
adds to this the nihilism, determinism,

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reductionism, to tell aryanism. These
are the isms you know the Frankel knew

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about in his day and actually haven't
changed because the feeling and the atmosphere is

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still filled with them. The idea
that life is basically meaningless, the past

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determines the future. You have no
free choice, you're helpless to change anything.

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You're a little more than a glorified
machine or slightly more sophisticated animal.

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And since you can't think for yourself, but you should just go along and

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do what everybody else tells you to
do. So this is a very dangerous

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kind of direction. It doesn't mean
forget about what's good for you and only

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the collective matters, right, because
then you get into a different kind of

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danger. Frankel said something revolutionary.
He said, the individual matters to the

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collective, but the collective only stands
on the merit of the individuals that make

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it up. He said that we
are each unique, totally unique, and

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irreplaceable. We are not replaceable bricks
in a building. We are unique stones

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in a mosaic, and every person
makes up this beautiful mosaic that we make

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up together. All the individuals,
all the nations, all the cultures,

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all the religions. Everybody in the
world has something unique and special to offer.

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And this is very much how Frankel
looked at things. And that's why.

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Look, the therapy is very universal
in nature because it speaks to what

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all human beings have in common,
speaks to that common denominator, not not

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the lowest common denominator is Freud would
have it, but but the highest common

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denominator of the nobility of being a
human being. So the world is like

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this dynamic, living organism, and
you are here to play your part.

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My son gave me a good idea
once. He said that it's like a

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jazz ensemble, right, because you
know not I was saying life is like

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an orchestra where everybody plays their notes, and he said, no, in

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a jazz ensemble, you don't even
know what everybody else is going to do,

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and you don't even know what you're
going to do. But you have

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to be very much attuned and listen
to each other and feel you know,

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when it's time to come in with
something and how you're supposed to fit into

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the part to make up some beautiful
sympathy. So you know you'll matter in

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particular because you are part of something
greater than yourself. I hang on every

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word about you and it is definitely
the space that I occupy as well,

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which is why I had to have
you on the show. And believe it

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or not, we're already at our
first break segment. It goes by so

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fast, So hold that thought.
I've got more questions for you. Okay,

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I'm your host, Elisa Cortez.
We don't hear with doctor batcha yanager

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who's the head trainer of the Victor
Frankel Institute of Logo Therapy in Israel.

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She's been teaching courses online in Israel
and an instant Instant bowl for the last

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ten years. After the break,
we're gonna talk a little bit more about

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really the victim mentality and also how
organizations start to use logo therapy. Stay

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with us, We'll be right back. Elise Cortez is a speaker and engagement

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and development catalyst. She designs and
delivers professional development, leadership and engagement workshops

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00:17:15.559 --> 00:17:21.279
and can bring her expertise to your
organization. She will help ignite meaningful development

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00:17:21.319 --> 00:17:26.640
within your workforce that will increase employee
engagement performance and retention. To learn more

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00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:30.440
or to invite a lease to speak
to your organization, please visit her at

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00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:34.880
www dot Elise Cortez dot com.
She would welcome the opportunity to help get

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your employees working on purpose. This
is working on Purpose with Elise Cortez.

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To reach our program today, send
an email to Elise ali Se at Elise

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00:17:51.400 --> 00:18:00.920
Cortez dot com. Now back to
working on purpose. Thanks for staying with

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us a lot. Back to working
on purpose if you're just joining us.

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My guest is doctor Batcha Yanager.
She's the head trainer of the Victor Frankel

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Institute of Logotherapy in Israel. We're
going to talk a little bit next here

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about some of the work that she
does. And before we do that,

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though, we haven't really talked about
your actual background, Batcha and how you

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got into this space. So you
have been working in this field for fifteen

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years, as I understand it.
So a little bit about your background,

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how'd you get into this and what'd
you do before? Okay, I was

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a social worker and I wanted to
specialize in something and I also wanted to

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improve my skills, and I read
about logotherapy in a book I probably had

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heard about man's search for meaning before
but this line in a book about logo

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therapy said we are pushed by our
drives but pulled by our values really resonated

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with me. And in addition to
that, I always was a kind of

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person who didn't want to just at
what I heard a face value, and

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I wanted to think about it for
myself. If I felt something was wrong,

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I wanted to stand up for it. So as a person, I've

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always had the defiant power in me. That's a big part of who I

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am. I was a quiet child, so you might not have noticed it,

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but it was something that I really
cared about and I wanted to stand

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up for it. I didn't want
to accept the status quo as it was.

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So that's how you got exposed to
logo therapy, And so you've been

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how was how'd you make the leap
from social work into logo therapy. Well,

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I took a course and doctor Terria
Chantal, who studied from Victor Frankel,

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mentored me, and I had cases
that I brought to her and it

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went on from there. Then we
started a course together. I love it,

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which we'll probably talk about a little
bit later in the show. But

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I want to present something you and
I spoke about on the phone when we

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had our initial conversation that I think
will be important our listeners. We will

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recognize ourselves in this sometimes and certainly
other people that we know. And that's

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the notion of the victim mentality that
some of us walk around with and how

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we can fall into while bad things
happen to us when we were young,

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and that's why life is bad for
us today as an adult. Kind of

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a thing. Address that if you
would, Yeah, I'll talk about that.

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And I want to talk about three
different kinds of perspectives that people have.

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So two of them have to do
with how you see yourself, and

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one is how you relate to the
world. So the victim mentality is comes

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from what I said before about determinism. In other words, if your future

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is determined by your past, then
you're just a victim of circumstance and you

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can't change anything. So I have
someone, for example, a client who

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said I was handed the wrong deck
of cards start just from the beginning,

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you know, doesn't even want to
accept that this is what she has to

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deal with. So I had a
student, for example, who was in

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the hospital. She almost died,
you know, she was she was just

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had two different kinds of illness that
caused a lot of problems. And there

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was a girl next to her who
had skin problems, and you know,

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she was there with her mother and
she was doing nothing but complained the whole

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time. And she said, can
you get up and go to the bathroom

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by yourself? Said yes, can
you eat by yourself? Yes? And

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she's asking her all these questions,
and her mother says her, Look who's

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asking you these questions? Someone who
can't do all these things. So,

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you know, so when all you're
doing is complaining and thinking you're a victim,

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you're going to be very bitter and
unhappy and feel like life is meaningless.

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So that's the first thing. The
second is the feeling that you have

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no free choice, you can't change
something. So I had a client who

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said, I'm never going to get
married because I had trauma as a child,

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you know, so I can't be
in a serious relationship. So when

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you feel like you're powerless, you
really are powerless. And then how you

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relate to the world When you have
no authentic relationship, As I talked about

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before, you have no dialogue,
you know, you're talking to another person

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as if it's a dialogue, but
it's really a monologue. You know,

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people have these conversations were not really
listening to each other. So clearly all

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these things cause problems in relationships,
problems in work, you know, problems

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in every which way. So logo
therapy gives us a different way of thinking.

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Sorry, I jumped the gun and
I'm asking your question. I hope

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that's okay, that's great, let's
hit it. Yeah. So logo therapy

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gives us a different way of thinking
and approaching life. So logo therapy says,

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there's a different lens through which you
can see yourself and relate to the

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world the victim instead of saying I
am helpless, and you say, I'm

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not trolled by the circumstances. I've
been given a certain deck of cards.

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But what am I going to do
with that deck of cards? So that

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student who was in the hospital and
almost died said I refuse to die.

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She really represented the defiant powers.
She said, no, this is not

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going to be the end of me, you know. So, so what

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am I going to do with what
I've given? If your parents treated you

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wrongly, so does that mean you
have to do the same thing. No,

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now you're responsible for changing that.
And the question of choice. So

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there are a lot of limitations.
Everyone has limitations. But what can you

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change? What is your area of
freedom? And finally, how do you

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relate to the world. So the
word responsibility is a word that people are

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afraid of, you know, because
you know that means that what I do

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really matters and you know, and
if I do the wrong thing, it's

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going to be problematic for people.
Well that's true, but it means the

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opposite as well. It means every
little thing you do matters and has an

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important impact. So the idea of
being response able hyphenate that word. It

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means you're able to respond and not
react. To react means that your emotions

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are controlling you, but to respond
means you are recognizing that you're in a

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situation. It's kind of like listening
to the situation, even if it's not

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listening to another person. You're listening
to the situation that has something that's inviting

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you to do something, and you're
assessing what it's inviting you to do and

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what your response needs to be.
So you talk before, about you know,

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being human, like that's the essence
of being human. Drankael says that

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responsibility. You know, locotherapy is
an education, and responsibility is is basically,

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in a word, what it is. It's that transcendence being able to

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reach beyond yourself and to be able
to respond to what life is asking from

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you. You kind of look at
life as this great dialogue of questions and

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answers. Life is asking you questions
and you answer the questions. So one

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of the things that's under that for
me, and it's something you and I

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have briefly alluded to as well,
that I think is really important to call

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out here. It's it's it's this
idea of choice and its relationship to control.

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So if we are response able,
that means that there's some choice in

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that. So if you talk to
us a little bit about how choice and

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control are related. Right, So, I've had challenges in my life where

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I felt, oh, now I'm
not in control, and this time I

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am in control, you know,
And it's kind of like you pick these

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flowers, you know, he loves
me, loves me, not I'm in

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control, adding cotrol, I'm in
control, nodding control. No choice is

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not about I'm in control and I
can choose the value of choice is your

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capacity to recognize what is a meaningful
choice. Your awareness is what makes choice

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such a valuable thing, because,
if you think about it, a child

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who is not aware of what's valuable, who doesn't know how to make those

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assessments, cannot make the kinds of
choices that you can make as an adult.

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Right, but you recognize what's meaningful, you you're able to act on

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what's meaningful and take reasonable risks for
it. But instead, people don't think

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for themselves. They don't pay attention, they're ruled by their feelings. They're

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not accessing their inner voice of wisdom, which is which is what logo therapy

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is all about. Was logo therapist
trying to teach. Oh see, I'll

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never retire of these kind of conversations
because to me they're so so rich with

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Well, one important ingredient is meaning
and that's the next thing I wanted to

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ask you about. So as you're
talking and you're really sharing your true expertise

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in this field and helping us understand
more of how it works and why it's

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important, what I want to get
to next is when you talk about being

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you mentioned the notion about meaning meaning
being everywhere. How do you in your

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practice, how do you coach or
help people become more present to meaning or

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get access to it? Right.
So, there's a statement by someone by

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the name of Carolyn mess who is
a medical intuitive. I think she retired

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now, but she said a very
interesting statement. Liars don't feel even from

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the medical standpoint. She talked about
how when you're really honest with yourself,

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how important that is even to you
you know, your physical health, because

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there's something out of eye whack in
inside your system. So so when when

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you say, like I knew that
I shouldn't have done that, and I

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did, right, so you realize
that you know what the meaning is in

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hindsight, and if you would only
listen to that inner voice beforehand, then

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you wouldn't have made a mistake.
So it's a matter of getting into the

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habit of being honest with yourself,
you know, really asking yourself what is

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the truth? Now, people hear
the word truth and they get a little

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bit scared off by it, like
they get scared by the word responsibility because

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they think of this great, big
truth. But what does truth mean?

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It means knowing what is the truth
of the situation? That I'm in,

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Like, for example, you know, what is this person going to be

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sensitive to? Then maybe I should
be careful with them, or you know,

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what is my understanding of what needs
to be done here? Right,

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So so you understand the situation,
you understand yourself, and you understand who

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you are in relationship to the situation. So when you recognize the truth of

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all of those sides of things,
then then you get a little bit closer.

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And there are all kinds of techniques
like meditation and you know, walking

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out in nature and you know,
being quiet with yourself, you know,

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just like people talk about how to
get in tune with your intuition. But

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I think the difference is when you
talk about conscience or you know, the

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conscience is what picks up the meaning. It's it's more than intuition because it's

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recognizing the whole picture of what is
in front of you and what it requires

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of you. So locotherapy is not
really a conversation between you and the other

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person. It's really facilitating a conversation
between that person and his or her conscience.

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So so it's this antenna, this
restless kind of search tuning in like

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a radio transmission. You have to
tune into it all the time. Oh

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Batya, I love that. And
the way that she bring this stuff to

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life is just so accessible. And
on that note, let's grab our last

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break if we can. I'm your
host, Elise Cortez. We've been on

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the air with doctor Baca Yanager.
She is the head trainer of the Victor

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Franklin Institute of Loco Therapy in Israel
and she's been teaching courses online and in

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Israeli and instable instanable for the last
ten years. We've been talking a bit

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about some of the work that she
does in terms of accessing this connection to

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lag with therapy to her clients.
After the break, we're going to do

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two things. We're going to have
our share an example of someone she's worked

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with in that capacity, and then
get on to talking about lag with therapy

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and organizations and a work Stay with
us. We'll be right back. Alis

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00:30:48.920 --> 00:30:53.319
Cortez is a speaker and engagement and
development canalyst. She designs and delivers professional

386
00:30:53.359 --> 00:31:00.200
development, leadership and engagement workshops and
can bring her expertise to your organization will

387
00:31:00.200 --> 00:31:06.319
help ignite meaningful development within your workforce
that will increase employee engagement performance and retention.

388
00:31:06.559 --> 00:31:10.200
To learn more or to invite Elise
to speak to your organization, please

389
00:31:10.279 --> 00:31:15.839
visit her at www dot Elise Cortez
dot com. She would welcome the opportunity

390
00:31:15.880 --> 00:31:26.000
to help get your employees working on
purpose. This is working on Purpose with

391
00:31:26.079 --> 00:31:30.720
Elise Cortez. To reach our program
today, send an email to Elise ali

392
00:31:30.920 --> 00:31:41.160
Se at Elise Cortez dot com.
Now back to working on purpose. Thanks

393
00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:45.000
for sting with us, and welcome
back to working on purpose. If you're

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just tuning in, my guest is
doctor Batya Yanager. She's the head trainer

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of the Victor Franklinstitute of Blogotherapy in
Israel. We've been talking a bit about

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00:31:52.079 --> 00:31:56.039
her work, how she got into
it and now here I think it makes

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a lot of sense. We've been
talking a lot about why this stuff works

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00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:01.160
and how you get access to it, about HIT. But now if you

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00:32:01.200 --> 00:32:05.720
can share with us an example of
someone you've worked with who has benefited from

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00:32:05.720 --> 00:32:09.160
working with you in a logo therapy
log with therapeutic relationship. Okay, so

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before I tell you about this person, I want to just introduce when you're

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working with any person, there's a
kernel of good in every person, and

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there's a kernel of good in every
situation. So that's what you're always looking

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for, whether it's in work or
therapy or a personal scale. You take

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00:32:29.720 --> 00:32:32.480
their good motivation, and you know, the road to hell is paved with

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00:32:32.559 --> 00:32:38.559
good motivation. But take that good
motivation and add awareness to it, you

407
00:32:38.559 --> 00:32:44.000
know, take the challenges and learn
from your experience how to do better next

408
00:32:44.039 --> 00:32:47.559
time. Use the experience to become
more compassionate, more aware, more attentive,

409
00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:52.640
and more present. Turn it around. Loco therapy is always about turning

410
00:32:52.680 --> 00:33:00.279
things around and facilitate that conversation with
their conscience to learn from the sign of

411
00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:04.359
your feelings what you need and not
to let your feelings just dominate you.

412
00:33:05.480 --> 00:33:12.440
So your feelings could be telling you
you have certain needs for protection, for

413
00:33:12.640 --> 00:33:15.559
whatever it is, but it could
also be the need to stop telling yourself

414
00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:20.960
that you're unworthy. So in this
case, my client was always telling herself

415
00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:22.960
she was unworthy. You know,
she didn't get her needs met as a

416
00:33:23.039 --> 00:33:29.920
child, and she played by yourself
and and so you don't give meaning to

417
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:34.440
the person, you help them to
find the meaning. So once I helped

418
00:33:34.440 --> 00:33:37.039
her to see herself from the outside, which is one of the techniques of

419
00:33:37.079 --> 00:33:43.039
logotherapy, she was able to look
at herself more objectively, and it was

420
00:33:43.079 --> 00:33:46.759
it was a lesson in control.
As I spoke about control before as opposed

421
00:33:46.799 --> 00:33:52.640
to choice. She really she can
only change her attitude towards what's happening.

422
00:33:52.680 --> 00:33:57.599
She can't control people in situations and
make it be different than it is.

423
00:33:59.000 --> 00:34:02.440
So the results are that necessarily up
to her. And eventually there was a

424
00:34:02.440 --> 00:34:08.320
shift from needing affirmation from the outside
to wanting to give from the inside.

425
00:34:08.679 --> 00:34:13.800
So when she was deciding, I'm
a mother with a small child, you

426
00:34:13.800 --> 00:34:15.079
know, do I want to go
out and work and the outside and she

427
00:34:15.159 --> 00:34:20.280
said, yeah, you know,
But but her wanting to do it was

428
00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:23.119
too forcing it on the world,
you know, it was too much.

429
00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:29.119
But coming from a place of needing
to prove herself right Whereas now when she

430
00:34:29.199 --> 00:34:34.800
made that shift, she she flowed
from the inside and things started to materialize

431
00:34:35.360 --> 00:34:39.800
and she recognized that she didn't need
that confirmation anymore. She just wanted it

432
00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:44.960
because she wanted it, you know. And then that really made things very

433
00:34:44.960 --> 00:34:46.639
different for her. Oh wow,
that's so beautiful, and I can I

434
00:34:46.639 --> 00:34:51.800
can absolutely see that talk about being
able to give a person a new place

435
00:34:51.800 --> 00:34:53.559
to stand from in life, if
you will, and how they interact and

436
00:34:53.599 --> 00:34:59.159
play with life, how how liberating
that must be for her. And I

437
00:34:59.199 --> 00:35:01.360
wanted to make sure that you did
share an example because otherwise this just sounds

438
00:35:01.400 --> 00:35:06.800
so maybe for a lot of people
esoterics. And so the next thing I

439
00:35:06.840 --> 00:35:08.960
want to do is now bring it
into the workspace. And so much of

440
00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:14.119
the work that I do is really
helping organizations to be able to develop their

441
00:35:14.159 --> 00:35:17.360
people and help them discover and grow
their purpose and to work from that vantage

442
00:35:17.360 --> 00:35:22.320
point. I'd love it if you
can start to share a little bit about

443
00:35:22.360 --> 00:35:28.400
how you've seen logotherapy used in work
scenarios. Right, So the work.

444
00:35:28.440 --> 00:35:31.599
Purpose is an important word, you
know, because it's used in work the

445
00:35:31.639 --> 00:35:37.119
workspace. And I was thinking to
myself, what is the difference between purpose

446
00:35:37.199 --> 00:35:42.800
and meaning? And I think that
purpose is what I'm here to do and

447
00:35:43.119 --> 00:35:46.519
meaning is in the context of a
mission. Now, you know, a

448
00:35:46.559 --> 00:35:51.760
mission sounds like whoa. You know, it's a very big word, but

449
00:35:52.719 --> 00:35:55.519
it can be a very small mission
too. It's it's it's not always what

450
00:35:55.599 --> 00:35:59.599
you think you're here to do.
Because that's the difference. You know your

451
00:35:59.639 --> 00:36:01.920
purpose you set out, you know, I have this purpose I have this

452
00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:07.599
plan and then so I don't even
get sidetracked. And this happens to people

453
00:36:07.599 --> 00:36:10.760
in work all the time. So
the same way you work with people in

454
00:36:10.800 --> 00:36:15.760
any context in a personal context is
how you work in work as well.

455
00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:22.320
Because managers just want their workers to
to care about the company, you know,

456
00:36:22.360 --> 00:36:27.639
to realize the value of the company, to to think about how they

457
00:36:27.639 --> 00:36:30.599
can contribute, you know. And
the workers will be more motivated if they

458
00:36:31.199 --> 00:36:36.639
they identify with the company as having
value and they identify with themselves as having

459
00:36:37.119 --> 00:36:42.280
something of value to contribute to the
company. So so all the same principles

460
00:36:43.039 --> 00:36:46.440
apply. Now I want to give
an example and I'm not going to give

461
00:36:46.440 --> 00:36:52.119
an example from my uh my own
I don't work if to admit it,

462
00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:57.280
you know, I don't work with
organizations. But one of my students,

463
00:36:57.280 --> 00:37:00.920
many of my students do, right, is one of my students had a

464
00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:06.440
boss who was yelling at him for
not doing his job. And the truth

465
00:37:06.559 --> 00:37:08.880
is he really was not doing his
job. He fell asleep of a job

466
00:37:08.920 --> 00:37:15.320
and he it costs the company h
and he but he wanted so badly to

467
00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:22.119
succeed that he took it on even
though he knew he was exhausted, so

468
00:37:22.639 --> 00:37:28.559
you know. So, so the
idea is is let that person see instead

469
00:37:28.599 --> 00:37:30.719
of being angry at the boss,
now help that person to see from the

470
00:37:30.760 --> 00:37:37.239
boss's point of view and and also
to understand his own needs more like,

471
00:37:37.280 --> 00:37:39.239
you know, do you really want
to work here? You know? Why?

472
00:37:39.440 --> 00:37:42.559
Why do you think it's good for
you? Right? So, so

473
00:37:42.599 --> 00:37:45.199
all the questions you ask to get
a person to understand themselves better, to

474
00:37:45.280 --> 00:37:50.320
understand who they are in the context
and what kind of role they're playing,

475
00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:53.760
you know, is all part of
that. I want to mention. Just

476
00:37:53.920 --> 00:37:59.480
you know, one other example,
somebody by the name of memd os Merit

477
00:37:59.559 --> 00:38:04.920
who is in Turkey. So he
works a lot with loco therapy and organizations,

478
00:38:05.880 --> 00:38:08.239
so I know, so he has
this approach called how to be a

479
00:38:08.280 --> 00:38:15.639
successful Optimist and using loco therapy in
the in the work environment. And he

480
00:38:15.679 --> 00:38:22.039
has these principles, five principles you
know, which won't go into but he

481
00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:24.840
gets people in touch with their values. You know. So there was a

482
00:38:24.880 --> 00:38:30.679
woman who was forced into retirement because
of the economic crisis, and she decided

483
00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:35.440
not to work for that industry anymore. She was working in the banking industry.

484
00:38:35.960 --> 00:38:39.800
She decided to become a social entrepreneur. So she got a partner,

485
00:38:39.880 --> 00:38:45.199
but she was very nervous about it, you know, because is she really

486
00:38:45.199 --> 00:38:50.159
going to make a living doing this? And he talked to her about her

487
00:38:50.320 --> 00:38:54.480
values and those values, how those
values that why she wants to do it.

488
00:38:55.440 --> 00:39:00.679
She could keep those in mind whenever
the thought came came a course of

489
00:39:01.119 --> 00:39:04.920
I'm unsuccessful. You know, I
don't know if I'm going to succeed at

490
00:39:04.920 --> 00:39:07.280
this. Okay, but why do
you care about? Why is this important

491
00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:10.320
to you to do? You know? The kids like the conversation going back

492
00:39:10.360 --> 00:39:15.079
and forth in her head helped her
to get out of that good good good.

493
00:39:15.119 --> 00:39:17.719
Okay. That's very helpful. And
I think at this point it probably

494
00:39:17.760 --> 00:39:22.760
makes a lot of sense since you
talked about you don't personally do exercise or

495
00:39:22.840 --> 00:39:27.559
use logo therapy and cybratizations, but
your students do. I think it would

496
00:39:27.599 --> 00:39:30.719
be interesting for our listeners to understand
a little bit about the courses that you

497
00:39:30.800 --> 00:39:35.239
teach, and so I know you
teach them online and you also teach in

498
00:39:35.400 --> 00:39:39.559
Israel and instant Bowl. So a
little bit about who comes to your courses

499
00:39:39.679 --> 00:39:44.760
and what are they looking for?
Okay, So the people who come to

500
00:39:44.800 --> 00:39:51.800
my courses are psychotherapists and social workers
and school counselors, health professionals, life

501
00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:57.440
coaches, psychology students. They're mostly
people who are in the mental health field.

502
00:39:58.400 --> 00:40:01.519
And what they say is, I'm
doing this already. I do this

503
00:40:01.760 --> 00:40:07.119
naturally, and I now I want
to learn how to do it because because

504
00:40:07.159 --> 00:40:09.280
I really it really resonates with me. This is this is what I do,

505
00:40:09.639 --> 00:40:13.719
and I believe in it. I
believe in the focus on the spirit

506
00:40:13.760 --> 00:40:17.280
of the person. But what was
also important to me? You know,

507
00:40:17.440 --> 00:40:21.400
they say it's the missing piece,
you know, so what was important to

508
00:40:21.480 --> 00:40:25.320
me? If it's the missing piece, then how did your practice change after

509
00:40:25.360 --> 00:40:30.880
you learned after you added logotherapy to
it? And they had a lot to

510
00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:34.679
say about that. They said that
they gave their clients more self confidence,

511
00:40:35.159 --> 00:40:39.280
trust in their inner wisdom. They're
able to face challenges and problems in a

512
00:40:39.599 --> 00:40:45.440
more positive attitude, see struggles in
the context of what their life is about,

513
00:40:45.079 --> 00:40:51.760
improve their decision making skills, help
them with their panic attacks. Uh,

514
00:40:51.920 --> 00:40:57.079
you know, all kinds of things, you know, seeing seeing struggles

515
00:40:55.800 --> 00:41:00.480
as opportunities. I always think of
the high bar and the Olympics, you

516
00:41:00.519 --> 00:41:05.039
know, it's the bar is not
there as a barrier, but it's there

517
00:41:05.079 --> 00:41:07.960
for you to jump over it,
right, So you know, so having

518
00:41:07.960 --> 00:41:13.760
this just whole perspective on life help
them with their clients much much more than

519
00:41:13.800 --> 00:41:17.760
before. And I want to add
that the online course, what people say

520
00:41:17.800 --> 00:41:22.400
that they appreciate about it is that
it provides a space for people to be

521
00:41:22.480 --> 00:41:24.880
heard. You know, I talked
before about how every person is a space

522
00:41:24.960 --> 00:41:30.320
from place to be in the world
from different places. So the fact that

523
00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:35.159
people from all its international online,
all people from all over the world take

524
00:41:35.239 --> 00:41:38.239
part. So they like being able
to hear people from different places what they

525
00:41:38.320 --> 00:41:43.920
have to say, and hear different
perspectives and to be able to talk about

526
00:41:43.920 --> 00:41:49.199
how it applies personally without it deteriorating
into just a bunch of shit chat.

527
00:41:49.559 --> 00:41:52.440
So people appreciate that, so do
I. And part of what I love

528
00:41:52.480 --> 00:41:57.400
about hosting the show Batya is a
couple of things. One is that I

529
00:41:57.480 --> 00:42:00.800
love getting to talk with people across
the globe like you. Now, I

530
00:42:00.840 --> 00:42:04.159
know you're originally from from the Chicago
area here in the United States and now

531
00:42:04.159 --> 00:42:07.599
you live in Israel, but you
and are having a conversation from across the

532
00:42:07.599 --> 00:42:10.519
globe. And I love that you're
coming in and you're sharing your expertise and

533
00:42:10.559 --> 00:42:15.079
your wisdom and your knowledge and your
passion with us, and that is incredible

534
00:42:15.119 --> 00:42:19.199
for me. And then the other
part of that is that I feel connected

535
00:42:19.679 --> 00:42:22.719
to the rest of the world and
I do see myself as a citizen of

536
00:42:22.760 --> 00:42:24.840
the planet. Yes, I'm an
American, but I feel connected to the

537
00:42:24.880 --> 00:42:30.440
planet because of having these kinds of
conversations the way that we do, and

538
00:42:30.480 --> 00:42:36.559
it's incredibly meaningful for me. Yeah. So, so on that note,

539
00:42:36.599 --> 00:42:38.599
here we are. We've managed,
as the car Tuck guys used to say,

540
00:42:38.880 --> 00:42:44.599
to waste another perfectly wonderful hour together
talking about the things that you and

541
00:42:44.639 --> 00:42:49.320
I love. You know, this
show now is listen to people across the

542
00:42:49.360 --> 00:42:52.840
globe and they're really here. I'm
really here to try to help them find

543
00:42:53.000 --> 00:43:00.039
more meaningful and purposeful lives and work. So, given that contact of listenership,

544
00:43:00.400 --> 00:43:04.039
what would you like to leave our
listeners with today? So I would

545
00:43:04.079 --> 00:43:08.199
like to leave you with the idea
that it's very easy to see things in

546
00:43:08.239 --> 00:43:14.239
a dichotomous way, you know,
to see how different people are from us,

547
00:43:14.400 --> 00:43:19.079
and to see how your mind is
different from your heart. It tells

548
00:43:19.119 --> 00:43:22.400
you different things, and the future
vision is different from what's happening now,

549
00:43:23.079 --> 00:43:30.559
and all these dichotomies that can be
brought together. Actually that the fact that

550
00:43:30.599 --> 00:43:37.039
someone is different from you, instead
of being a wedge that drives you apart,

551
00:43:37.119 --> 00:43:40.159
it can be a reason to be
curious, to say, you know,

552
00:43:40.239 --> 00:43:45.119
this person is something I can learn
from and I am something to teach

553
00:43:45.199 --> 00:43:51.000
them. And it goes beyond just
tolerance. It goes to the point of

554
00:43:51.000 --> 00:43:57.519
of you know, of of want
of this mutual quest together. You know,

555
00:43:57.519 --> 00:44:00.599
and even even a worker can teach
the manager, and the manager can

556
00:44:00.840 --> 00:44:07.880
learn from the worker. So so
to heal and to be successful in life

557
00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:14.920
and to feel good about yourself,
you can't. You can't just do techniques,

558
00:44:15.199 --> 00:44:17.519
you know, and and self help
kind of stuff. You know,

559
00:44:17.719 --> 00:44:22.280
you have to be human, you
know, you have to access your human

560
00:44:22.360 --> 00:44:27.559
qualities. You have to really ask
yourself, what are the human qualities that

561
00:44:28.199 --> 00:44:31.960
allow you to really really free you? You know, that allow you to

562
00:44:32.159 --> 00:44:37.639
be yourself in the in the fullest
way and to be connected in the fullest

563
00:44:37.679 --> 00:44:42.920
way. Because meaning is always in
relationship to another, you know, relationship

564
00:44:43.039 --> 00:44:47.320
to some kind of connection with something
beyond yourself. Wow, what a perfectly

565
00:44:47.400 --> 00:44:52.119
delicious way to finish fat. Yeah. I for me, there's there's so

566
00:44:52.199 --> 00:44:55.280
much and that. There's there's authenticity, there's passion, there's inspiration, there's

567
00:44:55.280 --> 00:45:00.199
a connection, there's relationship. It's
all in there, and I love how

568
00:45:00.199 --> 00:45:04.159
you have situated your field and given
us access to it. I thank you

569
00:45:04.239 --> 00:45:07.400
so much for joining us on Working
a Purpose today and sharing your heart and

570
00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:09.639
soul with us. Thank you.
I'm so glad to be part of it.

571
00:45:09.760 --> 00:45:14.320
You know, it's great to talk
about just the title of your show,

572
00:45:14.519 --> 00:45:19.960
working for Purpose. It's a great
it's a great listen that you have.

573
00:45:20.639 --> 00:45:22.840
Thank you. I think so too. I'm committed to it and I

574
00:45:22.239 --> 00:45:27.679
enjoy every moment I get to wake
up and live my purpose. Yeah.

575
00:45:28.400 --> 00:45:30.079
So for you listeners, if you
want to learn more about Batya Yanager and

576
00:45:30.119 --> 00:45:34.639
the work she's doing at the Victor
Franklin Institute of Logotherapy and Israel, go

577
00:45:34.760 --> 00:45:38.239
to her website. It's get this
the meaning seeker dot org. It isn't

578
00:45:38.280 --> 00:45:43.599
that a perfect u RL The meaning
seker dot org. You can learn more

579
00:45:43.599 --> 00:45:46.199
about the work that she's doing and
some of our courses there. Remember that

580
00:45:46.239 --> 00:45:49.960
works at least one third of our
life, So let's work on cookers.

581
00:45:53.199 --> 00:45:58.239
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to tune in to Working

582
00:45:58.280 --> 00:46:02.000
on Purpose, featuring your host,
Alice Cortez, each week on the Voice

583
00:46:02.039 --> 00:46:07.239
America Empowerment Channel. This week,
find your life's purpose at work