Kirk Bowman on the Art of Value

WEBVTT

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There are some people that make their
work just another thing they have to do,

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and there are those that make their
work something that they want to do.

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Welcome to Working on Purpose with your
host Elise Cortez. In our program,

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we provide guidance and inspiration from those
people who have found deeper meaning and

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personal connection to their work life.
It's beyond nine to five. It's working

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on Purpose. Now Here is your
host, Elise Cortez. Welcome back to

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the Working on Purpose Show. Thanks
you tuning in this week. I'm your

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host, Elise Cortez, joining you
from Dallas, Texas, which is home

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base for me. This program is
all about helping me people more meaningfully and

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productively connect with their work and acquitting
urgencistitute same for their employees. So I

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bring on guests to a particular perspective
or experience that I think expands the conversation,

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and I often join the meaning of
work research I've been doing over the

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last fifteen years, as well as
my own consulting work that I've been doing

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both an insignium as well as before. I'll get to the program at just

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a second, but a big thank
you to my media partner and sponsor,

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Jobbing dot com. They are the
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Great partnership. Thank you jobbing dot
com. Last week, if you

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missed the show, you can always
catch the podcast. We were on the

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air with Tanya Waring, who is
the author of the Power of Manifesting and

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she's the founder of the Manifesting mindset. She teaches executives, entrepreneurs, and

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everyday people how to get what they
want in business and life using the proprietary

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manifesting process. We talked about how
she discovered the manifesting process for herself,

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some of the pearls from her book, and how manifesting makes a difference in

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the lives of people she's worked with
as well as in leadership with us.

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This week we have with us Kirk
Bowman, who the art who is the

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founder of the Art of Value,
a value pricing consultancy in Dallas, Texas.

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He's also a practicing fellow of the
Verisage Institute. He's a host of

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the Art of Value Show, a
weekly podcast dedicated to exploring the business model

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of value pricing and professional services.
He joined it today from Allen, Texas.

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Kirk, welcome to Working on Purpose
Alias. It's a pleasure to be

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here. Thank you for the invitation
to join you. You are so welcome.

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And as I like to do with
my guests, I like to tell

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my listeners just how I found you. I was minding my own business when

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I got invited to a very stage
symposium where you were there with a bunch

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of the really smart, interesting people, and that is how we met.

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So just to kick us off a
little bit, maybe can you say it

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a little bit about yourself, Kirk, and then let's talk about that about

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the symposium, and I know before
that you were at your own conference as

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well. But first things first,
a quick intrude to you who you are

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and how you describe yourself. Okay, Well, I'm a foreign musician,

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train musician, taught and played saxophone
in my first career, and then my

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second career moved into software development.
In fact, I've still got a software

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development company. Did that for twenty
five years. But I guess back in

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twenty ten is what happened that led
me to my current journey. I was

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at a conference and I was actually
a speaker on a panel that was talking

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about estimating your building practices in software, and I was the person on the

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panel that said, the only way
to do it really is by the hour,

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because you don't know how long it's
going to take, and that would

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seem to be the fair way to
do it. But there was another consultant

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who said, if you build by
the hour, there's an artificial limit on

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your income, and that really hit
home for me. And because of that

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one interaction, it led me to
study this business model called value pricing,

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and ultimately, within three months,
I made the decision to switch to that

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business model in my software business.
Because of that, we had really stellar

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revenue growth over the next two years, fifty percent the first year, seventy

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percent the second year. And so
now I'm on a journey to help other

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professionals make the same type of transition
to actually stop selling time and start selling

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results to their customers. So that's
kind of my quick resume. If you

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will, Oh, I just never
tire again. You have these really thoughtful,

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interesting conversations with people like you on
the air, Kirk. So one

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of the things that you and I
talked about when we when we were talking

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about having you come on the show
related to all this, and I think

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it's also another way to presence this
for our listeners is you said, set

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up thing along the lines, and
you fix this for me if I butcher

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it, okay? Something like you
know, when you find your purpose in

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your work, why not take that
purpose to your customers? And you really

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can't build by the hour because that
would be a conflict of interest that cannot

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be reconciled in relation to that purpose
of your Why do I have that right?

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And if I do, if I
don't fix it, and will you

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say why? Sure? You're exactly
right. When you build by the hour,

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there is a conflict of interest with
your customer. And it's actually fairly

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simple once you stop and think about. For a customer they want the lowest

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price, Well, how do they
get the lowest price? Well, when

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you build buy the hour, it's
for it to take as few hours as

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possible. Flipping around the other way. For the professional, you want to

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maximize revenue and therefore profit, well, it's in your best interests for it

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to take as many hours as possible. So the customer wants the lowest price,

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fewer hours. You want higher price, more revenue, more hours.

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How do you reconcile that? And
I've known several people who build by the

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hour, who are very ethical people, but that conflict of interests still exists

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no matter how high or low your
level of integrity. You can't explain it

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away. Furthermore, customers are really
not buying hours. The only reason they're

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buying hours is because way back in
the early nineteen hundreds, some lawyer up

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in Boston came up with this idea
of billing in six minute increments. And

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there's a whole history behind that,
but the bottom line is that's buying inputs.

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Customers are buying results. And so
if your work matters to you,

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if you found your why to get
congruent, you need to also focus on

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the customers why the result they want. Thereby, you're aligning your interest with

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theirs, and you're both pulling in
the same direction, and so you remove

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that conflict adventures. I just think
this sounds so yummy, and I'm not

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just saying that because I'm hungry and
it's the dinner time for me over here,

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Kirk. But for those listeners that
are sitting there discressing their heads like

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I was when I first saw the
actual phrase value pricing. Could you say

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a bit more about what is exactly
value pricing? So, value pricing is

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simply a business model where in order
to determine the price, you first have

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to have a conversation with a customer
to determine why it is they are seeking

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to work with you. One is
the result the outcome that they're seeking.

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So, for example, in software
business, customer may come to us saying,

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we need a CRM system. Okay, but why what do you think

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that's going to give you. Is
that going to increase sales? Is it

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going to reduce errors? Is it
going to increase profit? Is it going

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to increase or reduce turnover? Those
are the types of things we want to

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understand. And then once you understand
the outcome the customer is going to receive,

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then you can set a price that
creates a high RLI for them and

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most of the time a higher profit
for you. And all of a sudden,

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neither one of us care how long
it takes, as long as you

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do what you said you would do
by the time you said you would do

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it at the price you said.
Okay, So let's talk about that for

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a little bit. There's lots of
things I want to get out of here

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in this conversation. But let's take
this part here. So I'm the customer,

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Kirk, and let's say I want
you to build me a new website.

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How would you go How would we
go about this process of the writing

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working from the business model of value
pressing. What would that look like?

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It would start with a conversation where
I'm going to ask questions. Now,

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initially, in that first conversation,
you, as the customer, probably are

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going to want to tell me,
well, I want a website, and

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I want to hear what it is
you want. But I also want to

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steer the conversation fairly quickly in the
direction of Okay, I understand what you

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want, but why do you want
it? Are you trying to increase your

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sales? Do you need more inbound
leads? Are you trying to implement a

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new technology? Is there a new
opportunity that your business could see if your

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website was up to date. Maybe
you're going to be fortunate enough to get

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a radio show on the Voice American
network, and you know you need a

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new website to match that presence.
There are several things that could be driving

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why you want that website, and
I want to know what that is,

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and I also want to visit with
you long enough so I understand how is

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that going to have an impact on
you, not just professionally but personally.

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And so I simply ask open ended, inquisitive questions that are directed toward understanding

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what is the result you're seeking and
why are you seeking it. Once I've

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done that, then everything else follows, which would include, you know,

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defining scope, when do you need
it, coming up with the price.

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But my price is going to be
set based on the context of why do

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you need the result and what is
the result and what is that going to

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do for you? Okay, I
got all of that as somebody who has

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been selling, you know, some
kind of consulty service for many many years,

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not ever from the value based model
I might tell you. But so

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let's say that I say, well, look, Kirk, I just you

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know, I just need to have
a website presence because everybody else has the

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presence, and I just I'm losing
business because people say that you don't have

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a website. If I say that
versus what you said before, Look,

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I'm gonna have this radio show,
I'm launching this book and I'm speaking,

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So tell me if you could for
our listener's taken for mind, for that

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matter, what would be the difference
between those two different responses in terms of

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how you might work with the client
and maybe offer your pricing. Well,

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for example, when you tell me
you're losing business, I'm going to ask

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you to quantify that. I'm going
to say, Okay, how much business

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are you're losing? How do you
know you're losing business? If you're not

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certain, I'm going to ask you
to guess, I'm gonna say, okay,

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well, what do you know If
you're revenue is one hundred thousand a

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year, do you think you would
make an extra twenty five thousand? Do

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you think it could be fifty thousand? And we may not know the exact

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number, but we're going to get
some kind of a range. If it

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simply comes out that you just suspect
you're losing business but you don't have any

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concrete examples, or you know,
you can't quantify that that, I'm really

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going to, you know, in
a polite professional manager, Well, maybe

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we need to validate that first,
because maybe investing in new website that may

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not be the best investment or the
right investment. Maybe there's another reason that

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you're losing business, or maybe you're
not losing business. Maybe that's just something

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somebody's told you, and so I
want to explore that. I don't if

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there's not a concrete reason or why. I want to do the due diligence

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and make sure that I'm actually going
to be helping you. It's kind of

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like a doctor, right doctor,
they want to make sure they do no

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harm. I'm exactly the same way
as a consultant. I consider that my

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professional integrity to make sure that you're
in a better place after our interaction,

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even if that means you don't work
with me. I like that. I

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mean, that just screams integrity to
me. I like that a lot.

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The other thing that I like what
you said there, Kirk, is is

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that it strucks me if you're going
to ask some of those kind of questions

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if I give you that responsive.
Look, I need a website because everybody

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else has one, and I'm losing
business, but I can't tell you anything

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about why that is. Those probing
questions might actually get me on the court

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of trying to figure out, well, what is it that's driving this which

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might actually awaken in me an even
deeper desire to want to work with you

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than what I would have had before. Exactly. Mahon Calsa in his book

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Let's Get Real or Let's Not Play, He talks about the idea that the

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way you sell is an example of
the way you solve, in other words,

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by interacting with you in that kind
of pre sales conversation. You want

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to do it in a way that
gives the customer an idea of what it

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would be like to work with you. And you're not doing it in a

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false way or trying, you know, to act as something you're not.

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You're simply trying to make sure,
as I said, that they're going to

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be better off after working with you. So once we determine and you are

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really clear, then kirk about just
what it is. What's my why why

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do I need you do I?
What's my out? What do I need

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to have come out of this arrangement? How then do you decide about pricing?

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What does that process look like?
And how do you present that to

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the prospect. So this is one
of the most common questions I get.

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How do you come up with the
number and that I think puts it in

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perspective. When you think about building
by the hour, I put it this

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way, I say hour the building
requires a calculator. Pricing requires courage,

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meaning in order to set a price, you're going to have to make a

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judgment. Now, you want to
try to base your judgment on as much

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information as possible, and ideally you
want to try to understand what is the

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perception of value that the customer has. You want to see it through their

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eyes as much as you can about
what it is the outcome is going to

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be and what it's going to do
for them. Once I have an idea

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of that, then you want to
make sure the price you're setting is going

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to create a great ROI. Now
what's a great ROI? It becomes the

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next question. Well, for example, McKinsey and Company, one of the

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famous consulting companies, says, well, if we don't at least create a

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return of three to one, we're
not going to engage. So that's one

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idea. I have other colleagues who
say they want to create a minimum of

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ten to one for the customer.
So exactly how you come up with it

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requires judgment rather than a formula,
but there are some examples out there that

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at least give you an idea of
the ballpark that you're wanting to shoot for.

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Ideally, if you can imagine a
graph in your mind that has three

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bars, so it's a bar graph. The first graph, the shortest bar,

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is going to be the cost to
deliver whatever it is the customer is

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buying. Second is going to be
the price you're going to charge. And

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this bar is taller than the first
bar. And so the gap right basic

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accounting between the price that you charge
and your cost is your profit. And

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that's where most of us stop.
What we forget about is the third bar,

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and this is the tallest one.
The gap between that third bar,

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and by the way, that third
bar represents the value to the customer represents

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what they receive from interacting with you. That value should be higher than your

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profit, and ideally it needs to
be at least two to three times higher,

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if not more, because the more
value the customer receives in relation to

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your price, the easier it's going
to be for them to say yes.

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And the higher that value is,
it's likely the more transformational what you're doing

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for them will be. M I
like that a lot. I like that

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a lot and the ROI piece is
really really important. I can tell you

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00:15:52.039 --> 00:15:58.039
that within Insignium we try to go
for a fifty x ROI. I don't

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know that we always get there,
but that's what we shoot for. But

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I love the idea that you're actually
considering the return on investment for these people

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in the value that they deem they
get. So in the conversation when you're

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talking about price, then I would
I got to guess that you're somehow trying

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to feel out, even in the
verbal exchange, what they think would be

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worth the investment. So before you
even actually present something for you know,

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formally, there's some kind of a
dialogue about what that might look like.

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Is that right? Sometimes yes,
sometimes no. One of the things that

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I learned early on. Sometimes we
will call you the money that the customer

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has to spend. We'll call that
a budget. One of the things I've

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learned is that the budget is not
the budget, meaning that if the value

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that you're going to create is significantly
higher, it will incentivize the customer to

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reallocate funds, go ask for more
funds. I'll tell you a story that

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happened to me I guess it was
about twenty twelve. Our software company was

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00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:11.000
engaged with a major retail brand and
my direct contact was vice president of technology,

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00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:15.519
and we were having a conversation,
and I knew in the conversation that

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00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:21.559
what was most important to him was
project management. The reason is because the

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system we were developing and supporting it
was an important system within the organization,

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00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:33.359
but there were much bigger systems online, e commerce, financial things like that

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that were really his primary responsibility.
This system, although it was critical,

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the best outcome for him, and
he told me this was that he would

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never hear about it, So I
knew what that meant. It meant not

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only did he want us to manage
our team, but he wanted us to

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manage his internal team. He wanted
us to lead it for both sides,

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and so I structured it that way. Gave him three options, which is

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part of value pricing, giving the
customer choices, and I left project management

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out of the lowest option, so
that if he needs a lower price,

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00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:10.640
there was one there, but he
was going to be giving up something to

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00:18:10.680 --> 00:18:15.759
get that lower price. He wound
up picking the highest option. When we

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00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:18.799
got to the end of the phone
call, he said, Wow, I

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00:18:18.839 --> 00:18:22.240
didn't know it was going to cost
that much. I've got to go get

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00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:26.319
more money, meaning you know,
I didn't think I was going to spend

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00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:30.039
that much, but the values there, so I don't mind to go ask

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00:18:30.079 --> 00:18:34.440
for it. Oh my gosh.
Well, I love that because what that

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00:18:36.119 --> 00:18:41.240
says for me is that just awakens
possibilities. That opened the channel for possibilities

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that maybe you were actually solving other
additional problems for him that he didn't see

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00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:48.839
that could be solved all in one
fell swoop. And I just see that

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as true service, truly doing something
right by the customer. Well, and

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part of it was the certainty we
offered. I came to him and I

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said, we will do these things, you will receive these things, and

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here's the price. Do you want
to buy it? Yes or no?

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In other words, even though we're
selling quote professional services or professional knowledge,

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we were allowing him to make a
buying decision the way you buy most other

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things. For example, a car. You don't go to the car dealership

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00:19:21.400 --> 00:19:22.920
and say how long did it take
to build this car? How much did

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00:19:22.920 --> 00:19:27.039
you pay the guys who built the
car. You don't do that math.

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00:19:27.559 --> 00:19:32.359
You just want to know now what's
the price. And there may be some

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00:19:32.559 --> 00:19:36.960
negotiation involved, but the bottom line
is when you purchase it, you know

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before you sign on the dotted line
what the price is. Right, all

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right, hold that thought. It's
already time for our first break. It

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00:19:44.920 --> 00:19:48.079
goes so fast. I'm your host, Alice Cortez. We're on the air

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00:19:48.119 --> 00:19:49.839
with the Kirk Bowman, who is
the founder of the Art of Value.

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00:19:49.880 --> 00:19:53.599
It's a value pricing consultancy here in
Dallas, Texas. He's also a practicing

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00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:56.720
fellow at the Very Stage Institute.
He's a host of the Art of Value

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00:19:56.720 --> 00:20:02.119
Show, a weekly podcast dedicated to
scouring the business model of value pricing professional

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00:20:02.119 --> 00:20:06.480
services. He joins today from Allen, Texas. We've been talking about just

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00:20:06.599 --> 00:20:10.079
what is this value pricing concept?
After the rake, we'll get into what

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00:20:10.119 --> 00:20:11.960
it looks like from the owner's bantage
point as well. Stay with us,

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00:20:11.960 --> 00:20:26.759
We'll be right back. Friend us
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284
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the world. Voice America Empowerment.
Elise Cortez is a speaker and engagement and

285
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Motivate change Succeed. It's your world, Motivate change, Succeed. Voice

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America Empowerment dot com. This is
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Elise Cortez dot com. Now back
to Working on Purpose. Thanks for staying

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00:22:45.880 --> 00:22:48.000
with us, and welcome back to
Working on Purpose if you're just joining us.

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00:22:48.079 --> 00:22:51.799
My guest is Kirk Bowman, who
is the founder of Art of Value

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00:22:52.039 --> 00:22:55.640
of Value Pricing Consultancy in Dallas,
Texas. He's also a practicing fellow at

312
00:22:55.640 --> 00:22:57.799
the Very Sage Institute. He's the
host of the Art of Value Show,

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00:22:57.880 --> 00:23:02.960
which is a weekly podcast sydicated exploring
the business model of value pricing and professional

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00:23:03.039 --> 00:23:06.799
services. I'm your host, Alice
Cortez. So Kirk, while you and

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00:23:06.880 --> 00:23:08.599
I were on the break, we
were talking a bit more about how we

316
00:23:08.680 --> 00:23:12.480
want to make sure that we've we've
finished this section about about pricing, and

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00:23:12.680 --> 00:23:17.799
you and I were chatting about just
the perils of pricing by the hour.

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00:23:18.079 --> 00:23:21.359
Will you say a little bit more
about that, I will so. In

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00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:25.480
the first segment, we talked about
the idea that it's conflict of interests between

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00:23:25.640 --> 00:23:30.160
the customer and the professionals because customer
wants a low price fewer hours, the

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00:23:30.200 --> 00:23:33.839
professional wants a higher price more hours. But there's other reasons. We talked

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00:23:33.880 --> 00:23:37.519
also about the fact that you don't
walk into a car dealership and ask them

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00:23:37.640 --> 00:23:41.039
how many hours it took to build
the car. But yet when we get

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00:23:41.079 --> 00:23:45.559
to professional services things like accounting,
legal, software development, any type of

325
00:23:45.640 --> 00:23:55.559
creative activity graphic design, web design, etc. Customers have been trained by

326
00:23:55.640 --> 00:24:00.880
the professionals it's our fault to ask
what's your hourly? Right? Well,

327
00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:03.720
the reason customers do that is number
one, we trained them. Number two,

328
00:24:03.799 --> 00:24:07.640
it gives them a false sense of
security or control. They somehow feel,

329
00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:11.680
well, hey, if it's by
the hour, then you know,

330
00:24:11.960 --> 00:24:14.640
if it gets done quicker, I'll
pay a lower price. Well, what

331
00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:18.440
happens most of the time is we
want we're lousy at estimating. Part of

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00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:22.559
it is because just what we do
there's creativity involved, and it's hard to

333
00:24:22.680 --> 00:24:27.640
estimate creativity. It winds up running
over and the customer winds up paying a

334
00:24:27.759 --> 00:24:32.200
higher price, and then et cetera. Is just a bad business model.

335
00:24:32.240 --> 00:24:37.079
If you've ever been a customer on
the receiving side of an invoice with ours

336
00:24:37.160 --> 00:24:41.519
on it, I'm sure you've looked
at it and gone, oh my gosh,

337
00:24:41.559 --> 00:24:42.799
I know it's going to be too
much, or oh my goodness,

338
00:24:42.839 --> 00:24:47.319
why they spend time doing that?
And by the way, you don't have

339
00:24:47.559 --> 00:24:52.960
any context to evaluate where they spent
their time because you don't do what they

340
00:24:52.039 --> 00:24:56.559
do. But it gives you a
false sense of security. Ultimately, as

341
00:24:56.599 --> 00:25:02.839
a customer, you don't give any
concern to how long it takes, as

342
00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:06.279
long as you get it when you
need it. And by the way,

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00:25:06.359 --> 00:25:10.680
if you get it faster, it's
actually more valuable to you, and so

344
00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:12.720
you should be willing to pay more. FedEx has taught us this right.

345
00:25:12.799 --> 00:25:18.640
If you absolutely positively want to get
it there overnight, go with fed X.

346
00:25:18.799 --> 00:25:22.519
Now, if you've ever shifted anything
overnight with them, you know they're

347
00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:25.079
going to charge you a high price
and FedEx was smart enough to go,

348
00:25:25.319 --> 00:25:27.039
you know what, we can offer
choices. We can get it there at

349
00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:30.240
eight am the next day or just
sometime the next day. And by the

350
00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:33.680
way, those two packages are probably
on the same truck. You want to

351
00:25:33.720 --> 00:25:38.720
talk about costs, they're actually incurring
more cost to deliver the later package,

352
00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:42.039
but yet they're willing to do it
because the premium they get on the ADM

353
00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:48.480
package more than pays for that extra
cost. So it just doesn't make any

354
00:25:48.559 --> 00:25:51.079
sense to build by the art to
focus on costs. The other reason I

355
00:25:51.160 --> 00:25:56.000
hate it is because it actually transfers
risk from the professional to the customer.

356
00:25:56.720 --> 00:26:02.160
The professionals the expert. You ought
to have some clue how much this is

357
00:26:02.240 --> 00:26:04.720
going to be in terms of price. I'm not saying you have to get

358
00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:07.480
it down at the penny, but
you ought to be able to put it

359
00:26:07.519 --> 00:26:11.640
in a ballpark. And when you
provide certainty to the customer, you're actually

360
00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:17.079
demonstrating your expertise because you're transferring the
risk back to you where it should be.

361
00:26:17.519 --> 00:26:21.200
The customer's never done this before,
You probably have done it dozens or

362
00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:23.880
more times. You should be taking
on that risk. It's not really risk

363
00:26:23.960 --> 00:26:27.200
for you. But it's high risk
for the customer, and customers will pay

364
00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:32.839
for certainty, So multiple reasons why. I just think it's a bad business

365
00:26:32.920 --> 00:26:38.680
model and it's a horrible deal for
the customer. Well, I'm completely convinced,

366
00:26:38.680 --> 00:26:41.480
Thank you very much. Anybody else
listening, maybe we get a few

367
00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:47.759
converts, but I know you've got
me anyway, Kurt, anything else you

368
00:26:47.799 --> 00:26:51.240
want to say from the customer Spanish
point before I take you over to the

369
00:26:51.400 --> 00:26:56.839
actual the consultant Spanish point or the
professional service provider Spanish point. I would

370
00:26:56.920 --> 00:27:04.000
just challenge those that had bought services
by the hour to think about what would

371
00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:08.960
it be like if you were able
to buy that same thing at a fixed

372
00:27:10.039 --> 00:27:15.759
price upfront with a guarantee. How
would that change your experience. I'll give

373
00:27:15.799 --> 00:27:21.079
you what seems like a very mundane
example, but there's a plumbing company here

374
00:27:21.079 --> 00:27:25.799
in the Dallas area of Benjamin Franklin
Plumbing. We had to replace the trash

375
00:27:25.839 --> 00:27:29.359
compactor in our kitchen. Well guess
what they did. They came out they

376
00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:32.880
said, Okay, we're going to
charge you, you know, this fee,

377
00:27:32.960 --> 00:27:34.680
just to kind of see what's going
on. If we do more work,

378
00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:38.039
then you know, we'll waive that
fee. Turns out, yeah,

379
00:27:38.200 --> 00:27:41.519
the compactor was shot. They couldn't
fix it, had to replace it.

380
00:27:41.559 --> 00:27:45.839
They gave me three options, okay, good, better, best, and

381
00:27:45.039 --> 00:27:48.480
they said, for each one,
here's the price. Which one do you

382
00:27:48.559 --> 00:27:52.119
want? Which one do you think? I went with the mental one because

383
00:27:52.559 --> 00:27:56.880
I didn't want the worse and I
didn't want to spend the massive amount of

384
00:27:56.880 --> 00:27:59.519
money, so I thought in the
middle, that's probably the right one for

385
00:27:59.599 --> 00:28:03.000
me. But it was a fixed
price. A plumbing company can do it.

386
00:28:03.160 --> 00:28:07.680
If plumbers can do it, everybody
can do it. So I'll get

387
00:28:07.720 --> 00:28:11.279
off my soapbox with that. Okay, great, got it, Kirk,

388
00:28:11.359 --> 00:28:15.119
Thanks very excellent explanation. I totally
get it. Well, let's turn the

389
00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:18.799
coin over now and talk about it. This whole, the business model of

390
00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:23.119
value pricing from the vantage point of
the professional service provider. If I have

391
00:28:23.319 --> 00:28:26.680
memory right here, then I think
I remembered you saying something on METEA on

392
00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:32.839
your own website that in your first
year as a provider. I think you

393
00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:36.079
said you're revenue to an up fifty
six percent or seventy nine percent. One

394
00:28:36.119 --> 00:28:38.519
of those two tell us which one
it was, if you can't, So

395
00:28:38.680 --> 00:28:42.839
the first year we increased our revenue
by fifty six percent, and the second

396
00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:47.480
year it was in the seventies.
I don't remember the second digit right off

397
00:28:47.559 --> 00:28:51.160
top of my head, but we
saw that type of growth year over year

398
00:28:51.240 --> 00:28:55.640
in our top line revenue when we
switched to this business model. Okay,

399
00:28:55.839 --> 00:28:59.960
help us understand. You know why
if the customers winning in this deal,

400
00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:03.519
it seems like, you know,
the way that we've been traditionally thought to

401
00:29:03.599 --> 00:29:06.079
think as somebody has to lose,
and I know that's not what we're getting

402
00:29:06.079 --> 00:29:10.680
at here, probably, but how
can you also win as a provider?

403
00:29:10.839 --> 00:29:17.400
So you bring up an excellent myth. Okay, this idea that in business

404
00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:21.720
one person has to win and one
person has to lose. Business is not

405
00:29:21.960 --> 00:29:25.319
a zero who sum game. We're
not playing poker. In poker, one

406
00:29:25.359 --> 00:29:30.480
person wins and everybody else loses.
No. In business, for business to

407
00:29:30.559 --> 00:29:34.920
work properly the way it was intended
way back, even in the barter system,

408
00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:38.839
both parties had to come out ahead. In other words, if I'm

409
00:29:38.920 --> 00:29:44.319
the customer, I value what I'm
buying and what it's going to do for

410
00:29:44.480 --> 00:29:48.039
me much more than the cash that
I'm going to give you in order to

411
00:29:48.079 --> 00:29:52.880
get it, And I, as
the professional, want that cash because that's

412
00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:56.039
my livelihood, you know, et
cetera, et cetera. So it's a

413
00:29:56.119 --> 00:30:00.720
win win. So if I were
to reframe your question, it might be

414
00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:03.160
along the lines of, hey,
was it fair for you to have a

415
00:30:03.240 --> 00:30:07.880
fifty percent increase? You know,
you might ask that some people, you

416
00:30:07.960 --> 00:30:11.680
know, they'll actually come out and
say, sounds like you're gouging the customer.

417
00:30:11.759 --> 00:30:15.720
No, I'm not okay billing after
the fact and going overestimate. That's

418
00:30:15.799 --> 00:30:22.200
gauging the customer. Telling the customer
for here's a fixed price for this scope

419
00:30:22.240 --> 00:30:23.400
of work, and here's the delivery
date, I'm going to give you a

420
00:30:23.440 --> 00:30:29.160
money back guarantee. That's not gauging, that's being professional. And so we

421
00:30:29.319 --> 00:30:33.920
started doing that with customers. We
started with new customers. What we found

422
00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:41.119
is when we started looking into why
customers were hiring us, there was room

423
00:30:41.480 --> 00:30:47.319
for us to bring home a higher
profit because we were already creating so much

424
00:30:47.400 --> 00:30:49.240
value. We weren't even fully aware
of the value we were creating. So

425
00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:52.519
in a lot of cases, the
margin was already there. We just weren't

426
00:30:52.839 --> 00:30:57.599
charging a price that the customer would
have paid. And so we started doing

427
00:30:57.680 --> 00:31:02.240
that and we did it with new
customers first, and then once we got

428
00:31:02.319 --> 00:31:06.160
it under our feet, we look
for opportunities to transition existing customers. We

429
00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:08.440
set a goal we set in twelve
months, we're going to be doing value

430
00:31:08.480 --> 00:31:12.400
pricing with every customer, whether they're
new or an existing customer. Actually took

431
00:31:12.480 --> 00:31:17.519
us thirteen months. We did lose
some customers in the process, but guess

432
00:31:17.599 --> 00:31:19.720
what, the customers who didn't want
to work that way, or not the

433
00:31:19.839 --> 00:31:26.039
customers we wanted to keep long term. I completely can see that it's a

434
00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:32.279
whole different way of connecting with and
serving your clients. And again, the

435
00:31:32.319 --> 00:31:33.839
part of the reason I wanted to
have you in the show, Kirk,

436
00:31:33.960 --> 00:31:37.000
is that I do see the connection
between value pricing and really working with a

437
00:31:37.119 --> 00:31:42.960
purpose and your why. I totally
see that lineage. There is a connection

438
00:31:44.119 --> 00:31:48.160
because if you're passionate about what you
do, and most professionals are, because

439
00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:53.599
you know, it takes a lot
of blood, sweat and tears to get

440
00:31:55.039 --> 00:31:57.680
the degree or pass the bar exam
or whatever it is, to set up

441
00:31:57.680 --> 00:32:01.200
our practice, to get customers,
to build that referral network, et cetera,

442
00:32:01.279 --> 00:32:05.680
et cetera. It takes a lot
of time and effort to do that.

443
00:32:06.400 --> 00:32:08.480
So we're passionate about what we do. We generally would not do it

444
00:32:08.559 --> 00:32:14.000
for something that we have no interest
in whatsoever. If we're that passionate about

445
00:32:14.039 --> 00:32:19.319
it, and that is where our
whay is coming from, why would you

446
00:32:19.559 --> 00:32:23.759
not want to carry that concept forward? Align with your customers? Why so

447
00:32:23.920 --> 00:32:29.160
that everything is in conngrue and and
as your show is working on purpose,

448
00:32:29.720 --> 00:32:34.640
we're just identifying the purpose that we're
working on to be what is the reason

449
00:32:34.759 --> 00:32:37.880
the customer wants what they want,
what is the outcome? How's that going

450
00:32:37.960 --> 00:32:42.079
to impact them? And we're going
to align with that. And we're also

451
00:32:42.160 --> 00:32:45.119
going far enough to say if the
value is not there, we're not going

452
00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:49.680
to engage. We're not going to
engage you at an hourady rate because you

453
00:32:49.839 --> 00:32:52.519
think it's a good idea. If
the value is not there, we won't

454
00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:57.039
engage. The value is there,
we're going to give you a fixed price

455
00:32:58.400 --> 00:33:04.319
with a money back guarantee. Questions
asked, I like it, Kurt,

456
00:33:04.920 --> 00:33:07.519
I like it. I like it, And that actually brings me to the

457
00:33:07.599 --> 00:33:12.200
next question. I'd like to ask
if if you're if you're gamed to change

458
00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:16.440
topics, are you I am okay? Wasn't there there anything else you wanted

459
00:33:16.440 --> 00:33:20.519
to say from the vantage point of
being a provider, I'd like it if

460
00:33:20.519 --> 00:33:23.000
you don't mind to share a bit
about how you do consult in terms of

461
00:33:23.079 --> 00:33:29.200
your art of value practice. And
you, I know that you teach other

462
00:33:29.319 --> 00:33:32.279
business owners this business model, so
I'm just curious to know how is it

463
00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:37.759
that you do you work with your
clients in that regard. So work with

464
00:33:37.960 --> 00:33:40.079
clients in you know, two or
three different ways. I do coaching,

465
00:33:40.279 --> 00:33:45.119
which a lot of times that's with
either solo or smaller firms. I do

466
00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:50.160
consulting with larger firms where I actually
go in and work with them long term.

467
00:33:50.480 --> 00:33:53.319
And then I also do speaking as
well. So those are I guess,

468
00:33:53.359 --> 00:33:58.319
the primary three ways that I work
with customers. The biggest thing that

469
00:33:58.400 --> 00:34:02.759
I try to help customers do is
to change a mindset, because value pricing

470
00:34:04.039 --> 00:34:07.680
is more than just a way to
charge the customer, so to speak.

471
00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:10.840
It is a philosophy. It's a
state of mind. It's a way of

472
00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:15.679
thinking about things. I call it
the value lifestyle. And you first have

473
00:34:15.840 --> 00:34:22.960
to change your mindset before you can
really implement this fully. In order to

474
00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:25.480
change your mindset, you also have
to be committed to it. You can't

475
00:34:25.639 --> 00:34:29.880
treat it as something We'll give this
a shot and see if it works.

476
00:34:30.119 --> 00:34:32.239
No, it will work, because
there's too many people who've tried it and

477
00:34:32.320 --> 00:34:36.639
then successful for it not to be. If it doesn't work, then something

478
00:34:36.760 --> 00:34:38.679
was missed along the way. Generally, with a mindset, what I find

479
00:34:38.719 --> 00:34:44.480
a lot of times is people are
still working from an hourly mentality. They're

480
00:34:44.559 --> 00:34:47.599
given the customer a fixed price,
but then in the back room they're still

481
00:34:47.880 --> 00:34:51.960
tracking their time and calculating their hourity
rate and trying to see did I cover

482
00:34:52.079 --> 00:34:57.079
my cost. If you are truly
pricing based on the value that you're creating

483
00:34:57.119 --> 00:35:00.760
for the customer, and you're having
a great conversation with them so that you

484
00:35:00.880 --> 00:35:04.000
discover that value, the margin is
going to be there. You may miss

485
00:35:04.039 --> 00:35:07.039
it occasionally on a project here or
a project there. Nobody hits a home

486
00:35:07.159 --> 00:35:15.519
run every time, but you're going
to on a regular basis the hitting higher

487
00:35:15.639 --> 00:35:17.639
margins so that you can cover your
mistakes. I had a guest on my

488
00:35:17.679 --> 00:35:22.719
show one time, Matt Ripal,
and he said pricing covers a multitude of

489
00:35:22.880 --> 00:35:28.679
mistakes. What he's saying is,
if you focus on getting the price right

490
00:35:28.760 --> 00:35:30.920
in relation to the value for the
customer. You can make mistakes in other

491
00:35:31.000 --> 00:35:38.199
areas and you're still going to be
able to last through those mistakes. You'll

492
00:35:38.199 --> 00:35:44.360
be able to cover whatever it is
because you set your target on what was

493
00:35:44.440 --> 00:35:46.719
important for them. And that's really
why this business model makes so much sense.

494
00:35:46.760 --> 00:35:51.360
I mean, I talk a lot
about the increased revenue and profit to

495
00:35:51.480 --> 00:35:54.119
the provider, but ultimately it's really
because it's the right way to serve the

496
00:35:54.199 --> 00:35:59.800
customer. Well, it certainly lands
well for me, Kirk, and I

497
00:36:00.039 --> 00:36:02.280
think you've explained it extremely well.
And I guess the other thing I would

498
00:36:02.320 --> 00:36:06.239
want to ask is that I would
think just like you. I mean,

499
00:36:06.280 --> 00:36:08.840
you were the other polar end of
this deal on that speaker panel that you

500
00:36:08.920 --> 00:36:13.960
were in twenty ten, and here
you are created a business and speak and

501
00:36:14.280 --> 00:36:16.360
coach and are writing a book about
this and have done a conference about this.

502
00:36:16.400 --> 00:36:20.239
I want to talk about those things
too, by the way. So

503
00:36:21.800 --> 00:36:25.800
there's it strikes me at almost like
a movement. It is a movement.

504
00:36:27.199 --> 00:36:31.000
And you know, I'm indebted to
a couple of my friends and mentors who've

505
00:36:31.039 --> 00:36:35.400
helped me in this regard Ron Baker, who's written books on this topic.

506
00:36:35.519 --> 00:36:39.280
My friend at Kless who works at
Save Software, have both helped me on

507
00:36:39.440 --> 00:36:43.599
this journey, and that's one of
the reasons I'm so passionate about helping others

508
00:36:43.719 --> 00:36:45.599
is because I've been helped. But
we estimate, and we haven't done any

509
00:36:45.679 --> 00:36:50.320
formal statistics, but we estimate from
speaking at conferences, and I say we

510
00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:54.119
meeting the very Sage Institute, which
is a group of about twenty fellows who

511
00:36:54.159 --> 00:37:01.599
are dedicated to teaching this business model
across various professions. We estimate probably about

512
00:37:01.639 --> 00:37:06.320
five percent, for example, the
accounting profession, probably about five percent of

513
00:37:06.400 --> 00:37:09.920
accountants and bookkeepers are implementing this business
model. That means the other ninety five

514
00:37:09.960 --> 00:37:14.719
percent or not, and that's who
we're focused on. So there's a lot

515
00:37:14.800 --> 00:37:20.880
of work to do there. But
I believe accountants and bookkeepers and also lawyers

516
00:37:20.920 --> 00:37:23.639
and the other professions, you're either
going to choose to go this direction because

517
00:37:23.679 --> 00:37:27.599
you realize it's a better way to
do business, or you're eventually going to

518
00:37:27.639 --> 00:37:31.480
be forced to because technology is coming, Artificial intelligence is coming, and some

519
00:37:31.639 --> 00:37:35.079
of that's not already coming, it's
already here, and there's going to be

520
00:37:35.159 --> 00:37:38.079
more advances. So we're going to
have to change and customers are getting smarter

521
00:37:38.239 --> 00:37:43.559
as well. This whole idea of
building by the hour, it's just such

522
00:37:43.599 --> 00:37:47.119
a crappy business model. It was
actually came out of the Industrial Revolution,

523
00:37:47.360 --> 00:37:52.239
you know, it's an idea for
manufacturing, and it makes no sense.

524
00:37:52.519 --> 00:37:57.159
There's there's no way to defend it, and so we're just wanting professionals to

525
00:37:57.719 --> 00:38:01.599
offer something to their customer that makes
it just a transformation or experience. I

526
00:38:01.679 --> 00:38:07.880
mean, you think about Disney as
a company. Disney sells memories, what

527
00:38:08.079 --> 00:38:14.559
do you so true or a lawyer
or a software developer or a creative what

528
00:38:14.679 --> 00:38:19.320
do you sell and how can you
take your business into something that's transformational?

529
00:38:20.960 --> 00:38:22.440
You know, Kirk, this is
a great reason why I wanted to having

530
00:38:22.480 --> 00:38:27.519
the show, because I certainly want
to be able to evangelize ideas like this

531
00:38:27.840 --> 00:38:31.440
and a movement like this. And
I really also appreciate how you connected how

532
00:38:31.559 --> 00:38:37.159
artificial intelligence and robotics, etc.
Will impact how people do their work in

533
00:38:37.239 --> 00:38:40.760
certainly price that's something that's an enormous
interest to me. So we may want

534
00:38:40.760 --> 00:38:44.119
to pick that up again after the
break, but it's already time for us

535
00:38:44.159 --> 00:38:46.079
to cut again. I'm at Last
Cortez, your host, who've been on

536
00:38:46.119 --> 00:38:49.559
the air with Kirk Bowman, who
is the founder of Art of Value,

537
00:38:49.639 --> 00:38:52.400
which is a value pricing consultancy in
Dallas, Texas. He's also a practicing

538
00:38:52.440 --> 00:38:55.599
fellow at the Very Sage Institute.
He's the host of the Art and Value

539
00:38:55.639 --> 00:39:00.280
Show, which is a weekly podcast
dedicated to exploring the business model of value

540
00:39:00.280 --> 00:39:04.079
pricing in professional services. He joins
us today from Allen, Texas. We've

541
00:39:04.079 --> 00:39:08.000
been talking this time a bit about
how value pricing is beneficial to the service

542
00:39:08.079 --> 00:39:12.039
provider. After the break, we'll
get into more of his thought leadership in

543
00:39:12.119 --> 00:39:14.800
terms of his book and his conference
and see what else he's up to stay

544
00:39:14.840 --> 00:39:30.960
with us, We'll be right back. Friend us on Facebook to keep up

545
00:39:30.960 --> 00:39:36.840
with what's empowering the world. Voice
America Empowerment. Elise Cortez is a speaker

546
00:39:36.960 --> 00:39:42.440
and engagement and development catalyst. She
designs and delivers professional development, leadership and

547
00:39:42.679 --> 00:39:46.480
engagement workshops and can bring her expertise
to your organization. She will help ignite

548
00:39:46.519 --> 00:39:52.039
meaningful development within your workforce that will
increase employee engagement, performance and retention.

549
00:39:52.360 --> 00:39:57.280
To learn more or to invite Elise
to speak to your organization, Please visit

550
00:39:57.360 --> 00:40:01.719
her at www dot Elise Corte dot
com. She would welcome the opportunity to

551
00:40:01.800 --> 00:40:07.320
help get your employees working on purpose. We're making it easier to listen to

552
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557
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559
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560
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561
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562
00:41:06.679 --> 00:41:22.480
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563
00:41:22.559 --> 00:41:36.920
more great ideas at Voice America Empowerment. This is working on purpose with Elise

564
00:41:37.039 --> 00:41:40.760
Cortez to reach our program today.
Please call into one triple eight three four

565
00:41:40.920 --> 00:41:45.320
six nine one four one. Again, that's one triple eight three four six

566
00:41:45.599 --> 00:41:50.679
nine one four one. You may
also send an email to Elise A.

567
00:41:51.119 --> 00:41:54.480
L. I. S. E. At Elise Cortez dot com. Now

568
00:41:54.880 --> 00:42:01.639
back to Working on Purpose. Thanks
for staying with us, and welcome back

569
00:42:01.639 --> 00:42:05.719
to Working on Purpose. If you're
just tuning in. My guest is Kirk

570
00:42:05.800 --> 00:42:07.639
Bowman, who is the founder of
Art of Value. It's a value pricing

571
00:42:07.679 --> 00:42:12.519
consultancy here in Dallas, Texas.
He's also a practicing fellow at the Very

572
00:42:12.639 --> 00:42:15.719
Stage Institute. He's the host of
the Art of Value Show, which is

573
00:42:15.760 --> 00:42:19.559
a weekly podcast dedicated to exploring the
business model of value pricing and professional services.

574
00:42:20.039 --> 00:42:23.760
I'm your host, Alice Cortez.
So as we were finishing the last

575
00:42:23.760 --> 00:42:28.000
segment there, Kirk, we were
talking a bit about how value value of

576
00:42:28.039 --> 00:42:32.400
pricing really also works for the professional
services provider, and that was tremendously illuminating

577
00:42:32.440 --> 00:42:37.079
and I love the idea that you're
really in many ways, what I would

578
00:42:37.159 --> 00:42:40.760
say is you're spearheading a movement which
I certainly embrace. And I also appreciate

579
00:42:40.840 --> 00:42:45.519
how you talked about pricing by the
hours back. It comes back from the

580
00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:50.840
manufacturing era, which we all know
as being is way gone, and certainly

581
00:42:50.880 --> 00:42:54.400
it's technology is replacing that. So
I guess I'd be interested to understand just

582
00:42:54.559 --> 00:42:59.000
what it is in relation to the
work you've been doing and this whole philosophy

583
00:42:59.079 --> 00:43:02.239
of yours, how that impacts what
you're creating in the book you're writing.

584
00:43:05.559 --> 00:43:10.639
So I am currently trying to take
all of these ideas and put them into

585
00:43:10.719 --> 00:43:14.039
a book that's really, you know, going to take a lot of the

586
00:43:14.119 --> 00:43:16.159
things I teach. And you know, one of the things, you know,

587
00:43:16.199 --> 00:43:19.559
they say, if you want to
learn something, teach it. If

588
00:43:19.599 --> 00:43:22.639
you want to really learn it,
write a book, right because it forces

589
00:43:22.719 --> 00:43:28.960
you to think through things and really
make your ideas concrete and comprehensible in a

590
00:43:29.039 --> 00:43:32.679
way that just just talking about them
and teaching them doesn't. And so that's

591
00:43:32.760 --> 00:43:36.760
what I'm trying to achieve through the
book, is not only to make it

592
00:43:37.320 --> 00:43:42.679
more approachable for those who may or
may not engage me in some professional way,

593
00:43:43.159 --> 00:43:49.119
but also force me to make it
even more concrete and advance my thinking

594
00:43:49.320 --> 00:43:52.840
in that area. So that's that's
kind of what's coming behind the book.

595
00:43:53.800 --> 00:43:57.039
Okay, I got to say two
things to that, Kirk. First,

596
00:43:57.559 --> 00:44:00.920
I think you know that I'm writing
my own book about research around meaning,

597
00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:05.519
work and identity, and I completely
agree with you that writing is a way

598
00:44:05.559 --> 00:44:08.280
for you to crystallize your own thinking
about whatever it is that you're trying to

599
00:44:08.400 --> 00:44:12.960
render on paper. No question about
that, which is why in many cases

600
00:44:13.000 --> 00:44:17.639
I have blank chapters. Secondly,
I'll tell you that as an adject professor

601
00:44:17.880 --> 00:44:22.199
at Southern Methodist University, I teach
various communication and internship classes there, and

602
00:44:22.559 --> 00:44:28.480
my students do write papers, and
of course it is abundantly obvious who knows

603
00:44:28.599 --> 00:44:30.840
what they're talking about according to the
way they write, right, It's really

604
00:44:30.920 --> 00:44:35.719
clear you know this or you don't. So I just really want to echo

605
00:44:35.760 --> 00:44:37.480
what you said there and the brilliance
of that. And I also want to

606
00:44:37.519 --> 00:44:43.440
applaud that you take your craft so
seriously that you would endeavor the whole book

607
00:44:43.480 --> 00:44:47.079
writing process in order to develop and
crystallize your own thinking as an offering.

608
00:44:47.239 --> 00:44:52.280
I just I want to applaud that, Kirk. That's awesome. I can't

609
00:44:52.320 --> 00:44:54.840
remember where I heard this, but
Seth Godin somebody asked him, how do

610
00:44:54.920 --> 00:44:58.679
you come up with the titles or
how do you come up with your books

611
00:44:58.760 --> 00:45:00.519
or why do you write books?
Something like that, and his response was,

612
00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:05.880
I write the ones that I have
to get out. In other words,

613
00:45:05.920 --> 00:45:07.880
he was saying, I don't write
books because I like writing books.

614
00:45:08.239 --> 00:45:14.079
I write books because there's ideas within
me that will literally tear me from the

615
00:45:14.119 --> 00:45:17.679
inside out if I don't put them
down to paper. I appreciate that.

616
00:45:17.800 --> 00:45:22.239
That's absolutely true for me too.
With my research. I have written a

617
00:45:22.280 --> 00:45:27.079
couple of articles which in and of
themselves were I wouldn't call them birthing rights

618
00:45:27.159 --> 00:45:30.760
by any stretch because I have been
through childbirth, but you know, certainly

619
00:45:30.800 --> 00:45:35.199
a mini series I could count for
that. So I can appreciate that definitely

620
00:45:35.280 --> 00:45:38.199
tore me. I needed to get
it on paper. Yeah, I've never

621
00:45:38.360 --> 00:45:42.599
met anybody who said, oh,
I'm so looking forward to writing a book.

622
00:45:42.760 --> 00:45:45.000
Now. Everybody is glad when the
book's done. They're thanking their family

623
00:45:45.079 --> 00:45:50.239
and all those kind of things.
Writing a book is a labor of love,

624
00:45:50.480 --> 00:45:54.920
and it's because the subject matter is
so transformational from the viewpoint of the

625
00:45:55.000 --> 00:46:00.079
author that it would be a disservice
to their fellow human beings if they did

626
00:46:00.199 --> 00:46:06.239
not put it out there. M
Okay, Now to that end, one

627
00:46:06.239 --> 00:46:08.079
of the other things that I really
appreciate about you as a human being and

628
00:46:08.079 --> 00:46:12.079
as a professional kirkus that I do
see you as a thought leader. Here

629
00:46:12.119 --> 00:46:15.639
you are, I mean you are. You are a practicing fellow at the

630
00:46:15.679 --> 00:46:20.039
Various Stage Institute. I do believe
and see that your work is a movement.

631
00:46:20.679 --> 00:46:22.480
And now I know that. Just
a few weeks ago, I think

632
00:46:22.519 --> 00:46:30.519
it was you you hosted your own
Art of Value conference. Yes, that's

633
00:46:30.599 --> 00:46:36.280
true, So tell us about that. Second the second full week in November,

634
00:46:37.039 --> 00:46:39.360
we did a two day event which
was the Art of Value Conference.

635
00:46:39.920 --> 00:46:45.800
Myself and my very stage colleague at
Kless and I entertained about thirty five forty

636
00:46:45.920 --> 00:46:51.639
guests and walk them through this business
model of value pricing. And we had

637
00:46:52.360 --> 00:46:58.840
very many different individuals in the room. We had a solo accountant from Florida

638
00:46:58.880 --> 00:47:04.440
who lives about an hour and south
of Orlando, who dropped her customer load

639
00:47:04.480 --> 00:47:07.519
from one hundred and fifty customers to
fifty customers and is making you twice the

640
00:47:07.559 --> 00:47:12.280
amount of money she was previously.
And then we had someone over from the

641
00:47:12.440 --> 00:47:15.599
UK who is the director of a
law firm of two hundred and fifty people.

642
00:47:16.159 --> 00:47:20.320
They were both in the room because
they're interested in this business model of

643
00:47:20.400 --> 00:47:23.119
value pricing, they're not at the
same level. Oneted to been doing it

644
00:47:23.199 --> 00:47:25.960
longer, wanted to be doing it
less, but we were teaching this.

645
00:47:27.239 --> 00:47:30.840
In fact, maybe the best way
to kind of give an example of what

646
00:47:30.960 --> 00:47:34.559
the conferences is about is if I
could share a testimonial I just got this

647
00:47:34.599 --> 00:47:37.880
past week with I'd be all right, I would like that and I would

648
00:47:37.239 --> 00:47:39.480
have best you for that anyway,
just to sort of see other stuff plays

649
00:47:39.480 --> 00:47:43.519
out in the real world. So
yes, please go for it. Alrighty

650
00:47:43.599 --> 00:47:49.039
So received this via Facebook recently from
and this is an account she leads a

651
00:47:49.199 --> 00:47:53.719
firm of five people, and she
said, my biggest customer has been growing

652
00:47:53.960 --> 00:47:59.599
like crazy, and so far they've
been pricing the work by the entity or

653
00:47:59.639 --> 00:48:04.840
by the company. So this to
your customer has multiple companies, And she

654
00:48:04.960 --> 00:48:07.880
said, because they're growing so fast, I have no clue how many deals

655
00:48:07.000 --> 00:48:10.039
that we're going to do in twenty
eighteen. But bottom line is I came

656
00:48:10.079 --> 00:48:14.599
up with a number, multiplied it
by four, and put a price out

657
00:48:14.639 --> 00:48:19.519
there that would basically allow us to
be there for them for whatever they're going

658
00:48:19.559 --> 00:48:22.440
to come up with in twenty eighteen. She basically said, I can't imagine

659
00:48:22.480 --> 00:48:27.079
there's anything that they would come to
us and ask for that we couldn't cover

660
00:48:27.239 --> 00:48:31.599
based on what we've been seeing.
She went on to say, he said,

661
00:48:32.280 --> 00:48:37.079
let me talk to my partner,
but that she thought he was going

662
00:48:37.159 --> 00:48:37.920
to go with it, and she
said, look, I may have to

663
00:48:38.000 --> 00:48:43.000
hire two people to make this happen, but because I was at the conference,

664
00:48:43.320 --> 00:48:45.000
I had the courage, I had
the knowledge to put a price out

665
00:48:45.039 --> 00:48:49.119
there at this level. She called
it an all you can eat buffet,

666
00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:54.000
and it's that type of transformation that
we're wanting to have with professionals put them

667
00:48:54.039 --> 00:49:00.280
in a position to do that.
And so that was from someone who attended

668
00:49:00.320 --> 00:49:06.480
the conference. And when we get
a testimonial like that, and at various

669
00:49:06.519 --> 00:49:08.199
age we tend to get these on
a regular basis, we call it an

670
00:49:08.320 --> 00:49:15.119
HSD. HSD stands for high satisfaction
day. That's a day when something happens,

671
00:49:15.320 --> 00:49:17.679
you get a testimonial that's the reason
why you do what you do.

672
00:49:17.840 --> 00:49:22.480
And that was an HSD for both
Ed and I when we got that testimonial

673
00:49:22.960 --> 00:49:27.960
works for me too, I love
it. I love it well. Back

674
00:49:28.000 --> 00:49:30.559
in your conference. I want to
go back to this because I appreciate that

675
00:49:30.880 --> 00:49:34.760
conference takes an awful lot of work, awful lot of planning, and awful

676
00:49:34.760 --> 00:49:37.559
lot of hours and interich you to
actually put on and attract people to both

677
00:49:37.599 --> 00:49:40.559
the people that are going to contribute
their thoughts and their knowledge as well as

678
00:49:40.559 --> 00:49:45.400
those who want to consume and interact
with it. So I guess I'd like

679
00:49:45.440 --> 00:49:47.400
to know two things. One how
long you've been posting this a conference,

680
00:49:49.199 --> 00:49:52.519
and to what is it that you're
really trying to do in that conference.

681
00:49:54.800 --> 00:49:59.039
So the conference, this was our
first year. This is the first time

682
00:49:59.079 --> 00:50:04.039
we've ever done it. We were
fortunate to be able to hold it right

683
00:50:04.159 --> 00:50:08.639
before the Very Stage Symposium. So
the Veri Stage Symposium is a conference that

684
00:50:08.719 --> 00:50:15.559
happens every other year and it jumps
around from place to place. So like

685
00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:17.920
two years ago it was in Boston. Before that it was in Vegas and

686
00:50:19.159 --> 00:50:22.039
so forth. This year we decided
to do it in Dallas, and so

687
00:50:22.320 --> 00:50:24.360
we thought, okay, let's put
on our own conference right before that.

688
00:50:25.119 --> 00:50:29.480
And like I said, we had
about forty people. What we're trying to

689
00:50:29.559 --> 00:50:35.480
accomplish there is value Pricing is not
something that you're like, Okay, two

690
00:50:35.519 --> 00:50:38.679
plus two is fort got it?
No, it's very subjective. That's one

691
00:50:38.679 --> 00:50:42.159
of the reasons why so many times
I get the question, how do you

692
00:50:42.239 --> 00:50:45.199
come up with a number? It
requires a lot of iterative type of learning.

693
00:50:45.239 --> 00:50:51.760
The testimonial I read just a minute
ago, she had been practicing value

694
00:50:51.800 --> 00:50:54.400
pricing in her business for a few
years, but by coming to the conference,

695
00:50:54.519 --> 00:50:58.599
it put her back in that headspace
again. It allowed her to renew

696
00:50:58.760 --> 00:51:01.440
her mindset, to go deep into
the philosophy of the business model, and

697
00:51:01.599 --> 00:51:06.039
it put her in a position to
be able to accomplish that. So that's

698
00:51:06.079 --> 00:51:09.000
what we're trying to do. We're
trying to make progress with mindset. We're

699
00:51:09.079 --> 00:51:15.280
trying to help deepen the mindset,
to expand the horizon of the philosophy,

700
00:51:15.719 --> 00:51:19.880
to help people take it further,
because it's a journey and you're never going

701
00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:23.280
to arrive. Yes, there are
people who started earlier on the journey who

702
00:51:23.360 --> 00:51:25.920
may or may not be ahead of
you, but the bottom line is we're

703
00:51:27.000 --> 00:51:30.840
each on our own journey in this
discipline of value pricing, and so what

704
00:51:30.960 --> 00:51:35.719
we're trying to do is help everyone
advance, hopefully not just one level,

705
00:51:35.800 --> 00:51:39.480
but maybe two or three levels from
being at the conference and interacting with other

706
00:51:39.559 --> 00:51:43.000
people. You know how it works
with your headspace, right, You go

707
00:51:43.159 --> 00:51:45.840
to a conference that's focused on one
thing, and after a while, your

708
00:51:45.880 --> 00:51:50.679
brain just starts clicking on it because
you've been thinking about it and processing about

709
00:51:50.679 --> 00:51:52.760
it, and some of your best
ideas come up in that time. And

710
00:51:52.920 --> 00:51:57.440
that's why we hosted the conference,
because in order to be successful with this,

711
00:51:57.840 --> 00:52:04.880
you have to continually be rolling in
learning, in the practice, no

712
00:52:05.079 --> 00:52:07.079
question about it. And I'll tell
you I certainly have an interest in being

713
00:52:07.119 --> 00:52:12.039
able to create a conference. The
reason I perked up about this is I

714
00:52:12.159 --> 00:52:15.760
would like to be able to gather
thought leaders too around the world related to

715
00:52:15.880 --> 00:52:17.159
working on purpose and what does that
look like and why is that important?

716
00:52:17.239 --> 00:52:21.000
What does that do for engagement?
What does that do for performance? What

717
00:52:21.039 --> 00:52:22.639
does that do for your attention?
All those important things that matter to the

718
00:52:22.679 --> 00:52:30.079
world of organizations, and certainly returning
an investment for talent. So I think

719
00:52:30.119 --> 00:52:34.119
it's brilliant and I am tickle pink
that I've been able to cross pass with

720
00:52:34.199 --> 00:52:37.159
you. As I say, it
was kind of a shared dumb luck,

721
00:52:37.320 --> 00:52:39.400
or if you want to call it, the universe was looking out for me

722
00:52:39.559 --> 00:52:44.320
and tripped me and had me fall
into into the symposium to meet you.

723
00:52:44.480 --> 00:52:46.960
But I'm glad for that, Kirk. This has been such an illuminating conversation

724
00:52:47.079 --> 00:52:51.880
for me. Well, I thoroughly
enjoyed it. You got me wound up,

725
00:52:51.960 --> 00:52:54.119
and I appreciate you giving me an
opportunity to share these ideas with your

726
00:52:54.159 --> 00:52:59.199
audience. Oh my gosh, you
are welcome, and we have just a

727
00:52:59.239 --> 00:53:00.159
couple of minutes left. You're in
the show, Kirk, and I always

728
00:53:00.199 --> 00:53:02.320
like to give my guest, if
you will, a bit of the last

729
00:53:02.360 --> 00:53:07.199
word, So, and maybe a
minute to ninety seconds. What would you

730
00:53:07.280 --> 00:53:10.320
like to leave our listeners with today? So? I think if there was

731
00:53:10.440 --> 00:53:15.760
one thing that I could leave with
your audience, it would be this that

732
00:53:15.159 --> 00:53:22.159
whether you have sold services by the
hour or you purchased services by the hour,

733
00:53:22.840 --> 00:53:25.559
I would challenge you to think about
what would the experience be like,

734
00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:30.639
both for you as a customer or
you as a professional. If you were

735
00:53:30.719 --> 00:53:37.119
able to deliver to the customer same
or better results at a fixed price,

736
00:53:37.840 --> 00:53:45.280
how would that change the experience?
I think you will realize as a customer

737
00:53:45.800 --> 00:53:50.039
you would much rather buy that way
than with the other model, because one

738
00:53:50.159 --> 00:53:52.800
has certainty and one doesn't. One
puts all the risk on the customer.

739
00:53:53.039 --> 00:53:57.440
One puts most of the risk on
the professional. That's what I would want

740
00:53:57.440 --> 00:54:00.280
to leave you with, so that
whether you are actually an attorney, account

741
00:54:00.440 --> 00:54:05.119
or some of the other professions I've
mentioned, you'll think about how you interact

742
00:54:05.199 --> 00:54:10.239
with professionals. My goal is I
want to completely eradicate the bill of allOur

743
00:54:10.599 --> 00:54:15.320
out of existence, because I think
it's horrible. I'm with you. I'm

744
00:54:15.360 --> 00:54:17.639
with you there. It sounds great
to me. I'm a convert. Thank

745
00:54:17.679 --> 00:54:22.400
you, Kirk. I really appreciate
that you that you joined me and actually

746
00:54:22.440 --> 00:54:23.880
at fairly late. Notice I invited
you to come on, and you said,

747
00:54:23.880 --> 00:54:27.679
you know, I can make that
work. So I really appreciate your

748
00:54:27.679 --> 00:54:32.079
flexibility. I appreciate that you shared
your passion. I get so much that

749
00:54:32.239 --> 00:54:36.400
this is a this is a purpose
for you, This is a purpose driven

750
00:54:36.440 --> 00:54:39.000
business for you, and I really
appreciate that you shared your passion and your

751
00:54:39.000 --> 00:54:44.000
conviction with us this afternoon. Thank
you, You're very welcome. Thank you

752
00:54:44.039 --> 00:54:45.920
for having me to be a guest. If you want to learn more about

753
00:54:45.960 --> 00:54:49.760
Kirk Bowman and the work he is
doing to help business owners convert to a

754
00:54:49.840 --> 00:54:54.199
value pricing model. Visit him at
www dot Art of value dot com.

755
00:54:54.519 --> 00:54:58.400
That's working farming information about him and
how to contact him and see what he's

756
00:54:58.480 --> 00:55:00.760
up to there. Next this week, we'll be on the air with doctor

757
00:55:00.800 --> 00:55:05.360
Owen Lynch, who is an a
social professor of Communication Studies at Southern Methodist

758
00:55:05.440 --> 00:55:07.679
University, where he and I both
teach. He's also the director of Research

759
00:55:07.719 --> 00:55:13.119
and Collaboration at Get Healthy da Ellis. He's also my co author, by

760
00:55:13.159 --> 00:55:15.280
the way, in the work that
I'm doing on my meeting and work research

761
00:55:15.320 --> 00:55:17.480
in the book that we're writing,
so I know him well. We'll be

762
00:55:17.599 --> 00:55:21.960
hearing about his passion, his insights
about their work he and his team are

763
00:55:22.039 --> 00:55:24.559
doing here in Dallas to address food
deserts, among many other topics of interest

764
00:55:24.599 --> 00:55:28.639
and things that he's working on.
See you then, remember that work is

765
00:55:28.639 --> 00:55:37.480
at least one third of our life, so let's work on purpose. We

766
00:55:37.639 --> 00:55:40.559
hope you've enjoyed this week's program.
Be sure to tune into Working on Purpose

767
00:55:40.760 --> 00:55:45.800
featuring your host Alice Cortez every Wednesday
at six pm Eastern Time, free pm

768
00:55:45.880 --> 00:55:51.519
Pacific time on the Voice America Empowerment
Channel. This week. Find your life's

769
00:55:51.559 --> 00:55:52.760
purpose at work.