Dec. 6, 2017

Kirk Bowman on the Art of Value

Show Notes
Transcript

The purpose and why of our work must also be carried over to our customers and how we interact with them, specifically how we charge them. Charging by the hour for our work is actually a conflict of interest that cannot be reconciled – and it also limits our own income potential as servants. In this episode, we explore an alternative way to serve and charge and serve customers that brings work well into the 21st century.

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There are some people that make their
work just another thing they have to do,

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and there are those that make their
work something that they want to do.

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Welcome to Working on Purpose with your
host Elise Cortes. In our program,

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we provide guidance and inspiration from those
people who have found deeper meaning and

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personal connection to their work life.
It's beyond nine to five. It's working

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on Purpose. Now Here is your
host, Elise Cortes. Welcome back to

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the Working on Purpose Show. Thanks
for tuning in this week. I'm your

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host, Elise Cortez, joining you
from Dallas, Texas, which is home

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base for me. This program is
all about helping people more meaningfully and productively

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connect with their work and acquitting the
ordercies stitute same for their employees. So

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I bring on guests to a particular
perspective or experience that I think expands the

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conversation, and I often join the
meeting and work research I've been doing over

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the last fifteen years, as well
as my own consulting work that I've been

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doing both an insignium as well as
before. I'll go to the program in

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just a second, but a big
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home. Great partnership. Thank you
jobbing dot Com. Last week, if

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you missed the show, you can
always catch the podcast. We were on

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the air with Tanya Waring, who
is the author of the Power of Manifesting

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and she's the founder of the Manifesting
mindset. She teaches executives, entrepreneurs,

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and everyday people how to get what
they want in business and life using the

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proprietary manifesting process. We talked about
how she discovered the manifesting process for herself,

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some of the pearls from her book, and how manifesting makes a difference

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in the lives of people she's worked
with as well as in leadership with us.

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This week we have with us Kirk
Bowman, who is the art who

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is the founder of the Art of
Value, a value pricing consultancy in Dallas,

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Texas. He's also a practicing fellow
of the Verisage Institute. He's the

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host of the Art of Value Show, a weekly podcast dedicated to exploring the

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business model of value pricing and professional
services. You joined us today from Allen,

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Texas. Kirk, welcome to Working
on Purpose at Last. It's a

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pleasure to be here. Thank you
for the invitation to join you. You

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are so welcome. And as I
like to do with my guests, I

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like to tell my listeners just how
I found you. I was minding my

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own business when I got invited to
a very stage symposium where you were there

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with a bunch of other really smart, interesting people, and that is how

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we met. So just to kick
us off a little bit, maybe can

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you say it a little bit about
yourself, Kirk, and then let's talk

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about that about the symposium, and
I know before that you were at your

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own conference as well. But first
things first, a quick introu to you

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who you are and how you describe
yourself. Okay, Well, I'm a

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forum musician, a trained musician,
taught and played saxophone in my first career,

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and then my second career moved into
software development. In fact, i've

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still got a software development company.
Did that for twenty five years. But

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I guess back in twenty ten is
what happened that led me to my current

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journey. I was at a conference
and I was actually a speaker on a

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panel that was talking about estimating building
practices in software, and I was the

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person on the panel that said,
the only way to do it really is

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by the hour, because you don't
know how long it's going to take,

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and that would seem to be the
fair way to do it. But there

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was another consultant who said, if
you build by the hour, there's an

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artificial limit on your income, and
that really hit home for me. And

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because of that one interaction, it
led me to study this business model called

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value pricing, and ultimately, within
three months I made the decision to switch

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to that business model in my software
business. Because of that, we had

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really stellar revenue growth over the next
two years, fifty percent the first year,

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seventy percent the second year. And
so now I'm on a journey to

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help other professionals make the same type
of transition to actually stop selling time and

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start selling results to their customers.
So that's kind of my quick resume.

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If you will, I just never
tire get you to have these really thoughtful,

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interesting conversations with people like you on
the air, Kirk. So one

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of the things that you and I
talked about when we when we were talking

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about having you come on the show
related to all this, and I think

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is also another way to presence this
for our listeners is you said, send

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something along the lines, and you
fix this for me if I butcher it,

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okay? Something like you know,
when you find your purpose and your

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work, why not take that purpose
to your customers? And you really can't

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build by the hour because that would
be a conflictive interest that cannot be reconciled

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in relation to that purpose of your
Why do I have that right? And

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if I do, if I don't
fix it, and will you say why?

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Sure, We're exactly right. When
you build by the hour, there

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is a conflict of interest with your
customer. And it's actually fairly simple once

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you stop and think about it.
For a customer, they want the lowest

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price, Well, how do they
get the lowest price, Well, when

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you build by the hour, it's
for it to take as few hours as

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possible. Flipping around the other way. For the professional, you want to

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maximize revenue and therefore profit, Well, it's in your best interest for it

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to take as many hours as possible. So the customer wants the lowest price,

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fewer hours. You want higher price, more revenue, more hours.

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How do you reconcile that? And
I've known several people who build by the

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hour, who are very ethical people, but that conflict of interest still exists

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no matter how high or low your
level of integrity. You can explain it

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away. Furthermore, customers are really
not buying hours. The only reason they're

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buying hours is because way back in
the early nineteen hundreds, some lawyer up

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in Boston came up with this idea
of billing in six minute increments. And

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there's a whole history behind that,
but the bottom line is that's buying inputs.

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Customers are buying results. And so
if your work matters to you,

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if you found your why to get
congruent, you need to also focus on

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the customers why the result they want. Thereby, you're aligning your interest with

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theirs, and you're both pulling in
the same direction, and so you remove

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that conflict of ventest. I just
think this sounds so yummy, and I'm

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not just saying that because I'm hungry
and it's the dinner time for me over

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here, Kirk. But for those
listeners that are sitting in discretion in their

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heads, like I was when I
first saw the actual phrase value pricing,

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Could you say a bit more about
what is exactly value pricing? So,

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value pricing is simply a business model
where in order to determine the price,

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you first have to have a conversation
with a customer to determine why it is

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they are seeking to work with you, what is the result the outcome that

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they're seeking. So, for example, in software business, customer may come

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to us saying, we need a
CRM system. Okay, but why what

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do you think that's going to give
you. Is that going to increase sales?

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Is it going to reduce errors?
Is it going to increase profit?

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Is it going to increase or reduce
turnover? Those are the type of things

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we want to understand. And then
once you understand the outcome the customer is

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going to receive, then you can
set a price that creates a high ROI

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for them and most of the time
a higher profit for you. And all

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of a sudden, neither one of
us care how long it takes, as

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long as you do what you said
you would do by the time you said

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you would do it at the price
you said mm hmm. Okay, so

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let's talk about that for a little
bit. There's lots of things I want

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to get out of you in this
conversation, but let's take this part here.

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So I'm the customer, Kirk,
and let's say I want you to

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build me a new website. How
would you go How would we go about

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this process of arriving doing working from
the business bundel of value pressing? What

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would that look like? It would
start with a conversation where I'm going to

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ask questions. Now, initially,
in that first conversation, you, as

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the customer, probably are going to
want to tell me, well, I

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want a website, and I want
to hear what it is you want.

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But I also want to steer the
conversation fairly quickly in the direction of Okay,

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I understand what you want, but
why do you want it? Are

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you trying to increase your sales?
Do you need more inbound leads? Are

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you trying to implement a new technology? Is there a new opportunity that your

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business could seize if your website was
up to date. Maybe you're going to

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be fortunate enough to get a radio
show on the Voice American network, and

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you know you need a new website
to match that presence. There are several

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things that could be driving why you
want that website, and I want to

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know what that is, and I
also want to visit with you long enough

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so I understand how is that going
to have an impact on you, not

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just professionally but personally, And so
I simply ask open ended, inquisitive questions

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that are directed toward understanding what is
the result you're seeking and why are you

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seeking it. Once I've done that, then everything else follows, which would

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include, you know, defining scope, when do you need it, coming

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up with a price. But my
price is going to be set based on

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the context of why do you need
the result and what is the result and

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what is that going to do for
you? Okay, I got all of

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that as somebody who has been selling, you know, some kind of consultancy

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service for many many years, not
ever from the value based model I might

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tell you. But so let's say
that I say, well, look,

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Kirk, I just you know,
I just need to have a website presence

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because everybody else has a presence,
and I just I'm losing business because people

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say that you don't have a website. If I say that versus what you

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said before. Look, I'm going
to have this radio show, I'm launching

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this book, and i'm speaking.
So tell me if you could, for

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our listener's sake, in from mind
for that matter, what would be the

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difference between those two different responses in
terms of how you might work with the

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client and maybe offer your pricing.
Well, for example, when you tell

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me you're losing business, I'm going
to ask you to quantify that. I'm

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going to say, Okay, how
much business are you losing? How do

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you know you're losing business? If
you're not certain, I'm going to ask

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you a guess, I'm going to
say, okay, well, what do

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you know if your revenue is one
hundred thousand years, do you think you

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would make an extra twenty five thousand? Do you think it could be fifty

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thousand? And we may not know
the exact number, but we're going to

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get some kind of a range.
If it simply comes out that you just

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suspect your losing business but you don't
have any concrete examples, or you know,

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you can't quantify that, then I'm
really going to, you know,

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in a polite professional manager, well, maybe we need to validate that first,

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because maybe investing in a new website
that may not be the best investment

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or the right investment. Maybe there's
another reason that you're losing business, or

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maybe you're not losing business. Maybe
that's just something somebody told you, and

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so I want to explore that.
I don't if there's not a concrete reason

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or why. I want to do
the due diligence and make sure that I'm

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actually going to be helping you.
It's kind of like a doctor, right

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doctor, they want to make sure
they do no harm. I'm exactly the

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same way as a consultant. I
consider that my professional integrity to make sure

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that you're in a better place after
our interaction, even if that means you

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don't work with me. I like
that. I mean, that just screams

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integrity to me. I like that
a lot. The other thing that I

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like about what you said there,
Kirk, is that it strucks me if

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you're going to ask some of those
kind of questions if I give you that

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responsive. Look, I need a
website because everybody else has one and I'm

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losing business, But I can't tell
you anything about why that is. Those

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probing questions might actually get me on
the court of trying to figure out,

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well, what is it that's driving
this, which might actually awaken in me

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an even deeper desire to want to
work with you than what I would have

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had before. Exactly Mahan Kalsa in
his book Let's Get Real or Let's Not

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Play, he talks about the idea
that the way you sell is an example

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of the way you solve, in
other words, by interacting with you in

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that kind of pre sales conversation.
You want to do it in a way

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that gives the customer an idea of
what it would be like to work with

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you. And you're not doing it
in a false way or trying, you

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know, to act as something you're
not. You're simply trying to make sure,

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as I said, that they're going
to be better off after working with

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you. So once once we determine
and you are really clear than Kirk about

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just what it is, what's my
why why do I need you? What

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do I what's my out? What
do I need to have come out of

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this arrangement? How then do you
decide about pricing? What does that process

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look like and how do you present
that to the prospect. So this is

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one of the most common questions I
get, how do you come up with

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the number? And that's what I'm
asking that I think puts it in perspective.

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When you think about building by the
hour, I put it this way,

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I say hourly building requires a calculator. Pricing requires courage, meaning in

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order to set a price, you're
going to have to make a judgment.

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Now, you want to try to
base your judgment on as much information as

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possible, and ideally you want to
try to understand what is the perception of

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value that the customer has. You
want to see it through their eyes as

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much as you can about what it
is the outcome is going to be and

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what it's going to do for them. Once I have an idea of that,

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then you want to make sure the
price you're setting is going to create

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a great ROI. Now what's a
great ROI? It becomes the next question.

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Well, for example, McKinsey and
Company, one of the famous consulting

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companies, says, well, if
we don't at least create a return of

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three to one, we're not going
to engage. So that's one idea.

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I have other colleagues who say they
want to create a minimum of ten to

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one for the customer. So exactly
how you come up with it requires judgment

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rather than a formula, but there
are some examples out there that at least

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give you an idea of the ballpark
that you're wanting to shoot for. Ideally,

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if you can imagine a graph in
your mind that has three bars,

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so it's a bar graph. The
first graph, the shortest bar, is

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going to be the cost to deliver
whatever it is the customer is buying.

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Second is going to be the price
you're going to charge. And this bar

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is taller than the first bar.
And so the gap right basic accounting between

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the price that you charge and your
cost is your profit. And that's where

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most of us stop. What we
forget about is the third bar, and

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this is the tallest one, the
gap between that third bar, and by

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the way, that third bar represents
the value to the customer. It represents

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what they receive from interacting with you. That value should be higher than your

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profit, and ideally it needs to
be at least two to three times higher,

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if not more, because the more
value the customer receives in relation to

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your price, the easier it's going
to be for them to say yes.

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And the higher that value is it's
likely the more transformational what you're doing for

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them will be I like that a
lot. I like that a lot,

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and the roipiece is really really important. I can tell you that with an

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insignium, we try to go for
a fifty x ROI. I don't know

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that we always get there, but
that's what we shouldt for. But I

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love the idea that you're actually considering
the return on investment for these people and

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the value that they deem they get. So in the conversation when you're talking

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about price, then I got to
guess that you're somehow trying to feel out,

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even in the verbal exchange, what
they think would be worth the investment.

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So before you even actually present something
formally, there's some kind of a

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dialogue about what that might look like. Is that right? Sometimes yes,

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sometimes no. One of the things
that I learned early on. Sometimes we

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will call you the money that the
customer has to spend. We'll call that

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a budget. One of the things
I've learned is that the budget is not

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the budget, meaning that if the
value that you're going to create is significantly

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higher, it will incentivize the customer
to reallocate funds, go ask for more

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funds. I'll tell you a story
that happened to me. I guess is

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00:16:59.759 --> 00:17:06.680
about twenty twelve. Our software company
was engaged with a major retail brand and

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my direct contact was vice president of
technology, and we were having a conversation,

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00:17:12.559 --> 00:17:18.119
and I knew in the conversation that
what was most important to him was

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00:17:18.200 --> 00:17:23.119
project management. The reason is because
the system we were developing and supporting it

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was an important system within the organization, but there were much bigger systems online,

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e commerce, financial things like that
that were really his primary responsibility.

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00:17:36.119 --> 00:17:41.799
This system, although it was critical, the best outcome for him, and

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00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:45.839
he told me this was that he
would never hear about it. So I

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knew what that meant. It meant
not only did he want us to manage

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00:17:48.039 --> 00:17:52.119
our team, but he wanted us
to manage his internal team. He wanted

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00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:56.279
us to lead it for both sides, and so I structured it that way.

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Gave him three options, which is
part of value pricing, giving the

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00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:04.680
customer choices, and I left project
management out of the lowest option, so

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that if he needed a lower price, there was one there, but he

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was going to be giving up something
to get that lower price. He wound

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00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:18.079
up picking the highest option. When
we got to the end of the phone

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00:18:18.119 --> 00:18:19.960
call, he said, Wow,
I didn't know it was going to cost

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00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:26.079
that much. I've got to go
get more money, meaning you know,

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00:18:26.119 --> 00:18:27.960
I didn't think I was going to
spend that much, but the values there,

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00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:33.000
so I don't mind to go ask
for it. Oh my gosh.

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00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:37.720
Well I love that because what that
says for me is that just awakens possibilities,

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00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:42.200
That opened the channel for possibilities that
maybe you were actually solving other additional

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00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:47.079
problems for him that he didn't see
that could be solved all in one one

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00:18:47.160 --> 00:18:52.920
fell swoop And I just see that
as true service, truly doing something right

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00:18:52.960 --> 00:18:56.759
by the customer. Well, and
part of it was the certainty we offer.

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00:18:57.119 --> 00:19:00.160
I came to him and I said, we will do these things.

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You will receive these things, and
here's the price. Do you want to

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buy it? Yes or no?
In other words, even though we're selling

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quote professional services or professional knowledge,
we were allowing him to make a buying

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decision the way you buy most other
things, For example, a car.

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Will you don't go to the car
dealership and say how long did it take

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00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:26.240
to build this car? How much
did you pay the guys who built the

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car. You don't do that math. You just want to know, now

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00:19:29.720 --> 00:19:33.559
what's the price? And there may
be some negotiation involved, but the bottom

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00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:37.720
line is when you purchase it,
you know before you sign on the dotted

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line what the price is. Right, All right, hold that thought,

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00:19:42.200 --> 00:19:45.039
Kerk, It's already time for our
first break. Go so fast. I'm

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00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:48.920
your host, Atlis Cortes. We
have it on the air with Kirk Bowman,

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00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:51.839
who is the founder of the Art
of Value. It's a value pricing

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00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:55.240
consultancy here in Dallas, Texas.
He's also a practicing fellow at the Very

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00:19:55.240 --> 00:19:57.640
Sage Institute. He's the host of
the Art of Value Show, a weekly

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00:19:57.799 --> 00:20:03.440
podcast dedicated to exploring the business model
of value pricing professional services. He joins

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00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:07.200
today from Allan, Texas. We've
been talking a bit just what is this

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00:20:07.319 --> 00:20:10.640
value pricing concept? After the raak, we'll get into what it looks like

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00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:12.480
from the owner's vantage point as well. Stay with us, we'll be right

284
00:20:12.519 --> 00:20:29.039
back. Friend us on Facebook to
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285
00:20:29.079 --> 00:20:36.000
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send an email to Elise A.
L Se at Elisecortes dot com. Now

309
00:22:38.680 --> 00:22:45.880
back to Working on Purpose. Thanks
for staying with us, and welcome back

310
00:22:45.880 --> 00:22:49.119
to Working on Purpose if you're just
joining us. My guest is Kirk Bowman,

311
00:22:49.160 --> 00:22:52.480
who is the founder of Art of
Value, a value pricing consultancy in

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00:22:52.559 --> 00:22:56.039
Dallas, Texas. He's also a
practicing fellow at the Vera Sage Institute.

313
00:22:56.200 --> 00:22:59.960
He's the host of the Art of
Value Show, which is a weekly podcast

314
00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:03.480
dedicated exploring the business model of value
pricing and professional services. I'm your host,

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00:23:03.480 --> 00:23:07.119
Alice Cortes, so Kirk while you
and I were on the break,

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00:23:07.160 --> 00:23:10.480
we were talking a bit more about
how we want to make sure that we

317
00:23:10.960 --> 00:23:15.000
finished this section about pricing, and
you and I were chatting about just the

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00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:18.440
perils of pricing by the hour.
Will you say a little bit more about

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00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:22.039
that, I will. So.
In the first segment, we talked about

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00:23:22.039 --> 00:23:27.160
the idea that it's conflict of interest
between the customer and the professional because customer

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00:23:27.160 --> 00:23:32.400
wants a low price fewer hours,
the professional wants a higher price more hours.

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00:23:32.599 --> 00:23:36.279
But there's other reasons. We talked
also about the fact that you don't

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00:23:36.279 --> 00:23:40.519
walk into a car dealership and ask
them how many hours it took to build

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00:23:40.519 --> 00:23:44.319
the car. But yet, when
we get to professional services things like accounting,

325
00:23:44.599 --> 00:23:49.000
legal, software development, any type
of creative activity great graphic design,

326
00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:56.880
web design, et cetera, customers
have been trained by the professionals. It's

327
00:23:56.920 --> 00:24:02.039
our fault to ask what you're hourly? Right. Well, the reason customers

328
00:24:02.079 --> 00:24:04.279
do that is number one, we
trained them. Number two, it gives

329
00:24:04.279 --> 00:24:08.119
them a false sense of security or
control. They somehow feel, well,

330
00:24:08.119 --> 00:24:11.799
hey, if it's by the hour, then you know, if it gets

331
00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:15.799
done quicker, I'll pay a lower
price. Well, what happens most of

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00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:19.440
the time is we want we're allows
it estimating. Part of it's because just

333
00:24:19.480 --> 00:24:26.279
what we do there's creativity involved,
and it's hard to estimate creativity. It

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00:24:26.359 --> 00:24:29.559
winds up running over and the customer
winds up paying a higher price, and

335
00:24:29.599 --> 00:24:32.720
then et cetera, et cetera.
It's just a bad business model. If

336
00:24:32.720 --> 00:24:37.279
you've ever been a customer on the
receiving side of an invoice with ours on

337
00:24:37.359 --> 00:24:41.559
it, I'm sure you've even looked
at it and gone, oh my gosh,

338
00:24:41.559 --> 00:24:42.880
I didn't know it's going to be
as much, or oh my goodness,

339
00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:47.279
why they spend time doing that?
And by the way, you don't

340
00:24:47.319 --> 00:24:52.880
have any context to evaluate where they've
spent their time because you don't do what

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00:24:52.920 --> 00:24:56.440
they do. But it gives you
a false sense of security. Ultimately,

342
00:24:56.480 --> 00:25:02.720
as a customer, you don't give
any concern to how long it takes,

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00:25:02.759 --> 00:25:06.319
as long as you get it when
you need it. And by the way,

344
00:25:06.359 --> 00:25:10.640
if you get it faster, it's
actually more valuable to you, and

345
00:25:10.680 --> 00:25:12.799
so you should be willing to pay
more. FedEx has taught us this right.

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00:25:12.839 --> 00:25:18.519
If you absolutely positively want to get
it there overnight, go with fed

347
00:25:18.680 --> 00:25:21.920
X. Now, if you've ever
shipped anything overnight with them, you know

348
00:25:22.359 --> 00:25:23.960
they're going to charge you a high
price, and fed X is smart enough

349
00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:26.680
to go, you know what,
we can offer choices. We can get

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00:25:26.680 --> 00:25:30.920
it there at eight am the next
day or just sometime the next day.

351
00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:33.880
And by the way, those two
packages are probably on the same truck.

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00:25:33.400 --> 00:25:37.839
You want to talk about costs,
they're actually incurring more cost to deliver the

353
00:25:37.960 --> 00:25:41.519
later package, but yet they're willing
to do it because the premium they get

354
00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:47.400
on the a AM package more than
pays for that extra cost. So it

355
00:25:47.519 --> 00:25:49.480
just doesn't make any sense to build
by the hour to focus on costs.

356
00:25:49.480 --> 00:25:55.279
The other reason I hate it is
because it actually transfers risk from the professional

357
00:25:55.319 --> 00:25:59.839
to the customer. The professional is
the expert. You ought to have some

358
00:26:00.200 --> 00:26:04.079
clue how much this is going to
be in terms of price. I'm not

359
00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:07.000
saying you have to get it down
at the penny, but you ought to

360
00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:11.359
be able to put it in a
ballpark. And when you provide certain to

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00:26:11.400 --> 00:26:15.240
the customer, you're actually demonstrating your
expertise because you're transferring the risk back to

362
00:26:15.279 --> 00:26:19.039
you where it should be. The
customer's never done this before. You probably

363
00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:23.000
have done it dozens or more times
you should be taking on that risk.

364
00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:26.839
It's not really risk for you,
but it's high risk for the customer,

365
00:26:26.079 --> 00:26:30.720
and customers will pay for certainty.
So multiple reasons why. I just think

366
00:26:30.759 --> 00:26:37.680
it's a bad business model and it's
a horrible deal for the customer. Well,

367
00:26:37.720 --> 00:26:41.599
I'm completely convinced, Thank you very
much. Anybody else listening, maybe

368
00:26:41.640 --> 00:26:44.680
we get a few converts, but
I know you've got me anyway, Kurt,

369
00:26:47.160 --> 00:26:49.359
anything else you want to say from
the customer spantage Point before I take

370
00:26:49.400 --> 00:26:55.359
you over to the actual the consultant
spantage Point or the professional service provider Spanish

371
00:26:55.440 --> 00:27:03.839
Point. I would just challenge those
that have bought services by the hour to

372
00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:07.039
think about what would it be like
if you were able to buy that same

373
00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:14.759
thing at a fixed price upfront with
a guarantee. How would that change your

374
00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:18.920
experience. I'll give you what seems
like a very mundane example, but there's

375
00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:23.680
a plumbing company here in the Dallas
area, Benjamin Franklin Plumbing. We had

376
00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:26.880
to replace the trash compactor in our
kitchen. Well guess what they did.

377
00:27:27.240 --> 00:27:32.920
They came out they said, okay, we're going to charge you this fee

378
00:27:33.039 --> 00:27:34.799
just to kind of see what's going
on, if we do more work,

379
00:27:34.880 --> 00:27:38.359
then you know, we'll wave that
fee. Turns out, yeah, the

380
00:27:38.359 --> 00:27:41.680
compactor was shot. They couldn't fix. They had to replace it. They

381
00:27:41.680 --> 00:27:45.240
gave me three options, Okay,
good, better, best, and they

382
00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:48.839
said, for each one, here's
the price. Which one do you want?

383
00:27:48.839 --> 00:27:52.680
Which one do you think? I
went with the middle one because I

384
00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:56.160
didn't want the worst and I didn't
want to spend the mashimum amount of money,

385
00:27:56.160 --> 00:27:59.720
so I thought in the middle,
that's probably the right one for me.

386
00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:03.119
But it was a fixed price.
A plumbing company can do it.

387
00:28:03.200 --> 00:28:07.960
If plumbers can do it, everybody
can do it. So I'll get off

388
00:28:07.960 --> 00:28:11.680
my soapbox with that. Okay,
great, got it, Kirk, Thanks

389
00:28:11.920 --> 00:28:15.400
very excellent explanation. I totally got
it. Well, let's turn the coin

390
00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:19.680
over now and talk about this whole, the business model of value pricing from

391
00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:25.160
the vantage point of the professional service
provider. If I have memory right here,

392
00:28:25.279 --> 00:28:27.599
then I think I remembered you saying
something on media on your own website

393
00:28:27.599 --> 00:28:33.599
that in your first year as a
provider. I think you said your revenue

394
00:28:33.599 --> 00:28:36.640
is went up fifty six percent or
seventy nine percent. One of those two

395
00:28:37.279 --> 00:28:41.079
tell us which one it was if
you can't. So the first year we

396
00:28:41.119 --> 00:28:45.519
increased our revenue by fifty six percent, and the second year it was in

397
00:28:45.559 --> 00:28:47.880
the seventies. I don't remember the
second digit right off the top of my

398
00:28:47.920 --> 00:28:51.720
head, but we saw that type
of growth year over year in our top

399
00:28:51.759 --> 00:28:56.039
line revenue when we switched to this
business model. Okay, help us understand.

400
00:28:56.279 --> 00:29:00.920
You know why if the customers winning
in this deal, it seems like,

401
00:29:00.519 --> 00:29:03.359
you know, the way that we've
been traditionally thought to think is somebody

402
00:29:03.359 --> 00:29:06.440
has to lose. And I know
that's not what we're getting at here,

403
00:29:06.480 --> 00:29:11.319
probably, but how can you also
win as a provider? So you bring

404
00:29:11.400 --> 00:29:18.640
up an excellent myth. Okay,
this idea that in business one person has

405
00:29:18.680 --> 00:29:22.839
to win and one person has to
lose. Business is not a zero who's

406
00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:26.240
some game. We're not playing poker. In poker, one person wins and

407
00:29:26.279 --> 00:29:32.359
everybody else loses. No. In
business. For business to work properly the

408
00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:37.319
way it was intended way back,
even in the barter system, both parties

409
00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:40.559
had to come out ahead. In
other words, if I'm the customer,

410
00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:45.680
I value what I'm buying and what
it's going to do for me much more

411
00:29:45.039 --> 00:29:48.440
than the cash that I'm going to
give you in order to get it,

412
00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:53.799
and I, as the professional,
want that cash because that's my livelihood.

413
00:29:53.799 --> 00:29:56.640
I you know, et cetera,
et cetera. So's it's a win win.

414
00:29:56.759 --> 00:30:00.200
So if I were to reframe your
question, and it might be along

415
00:30:00.200 --> 00:30:03.599
the lines of, hey, was
it fair for you to have a fifty

416
00:30:03.599 --> 00:30:07.079
percent increase? You know, you
might ask that some people, you know,

417
00:30:07.119 --> 00:30:11.759
they'll actually come out and say,
sounds like you're gouging the customer.

418
00:30:11.799 --> 00:30:15.799
No, I'm not okay. Billing
after the fact and going overestimate. That's

419
00:30:15.839 --> 00:30:22.279
gouging the customer. Telling the customer
for here's a fixed price for this scope

420
00:30:22.279 --> 00:30:23.440
of work, and here's the delivery
date. I'm going to give you a

421
00:30:23.480 --> 00:30:29.279
money back guarantee. That's not gouging, that's being professional. And so we

422
00:30:29.359 --> 00:30:33.960
started doing that with customers. We
started with new customers. What we found

423
00:30:33.240 --> 00:30:41.200
as when we started looking into why
customers were hiring us, there was room

424
00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:47.359
for us to bring home a higher
profit because we were already creating so much

425
00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:49.359
value. We weren't even fully aware
of the value we were creating. So

426
00:30:49.720 --> 00:30:52.599
in a lot of cases, the
margin was already there, we just weren't

427
00:30:52.920 --> 00:30:57.680
charging a price that the customer would
it paid, and so we started doing

428
00:30:57.720 --> 00:31:00.960
that, and we did it with
new customers first, and then once we

429
00:31:02.119 --> 00:31:06.079
got it under our feet, we
look for opportunities to transition to existing customers.

430
00:31:06.160 --> 00:31:07.960
We set a goal we set in
twelve months, we're going to be

431
00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:11.799
doing value pricing with every customer,
whether they're new or an existing customer.

432
00:31:11.799 --> 00:31:15.960
It actually took us thirteen months.
We did lose some customers in the process,

433
00:31:17.160 --> 00:31:19.480
but guess what, the customers who
didn't want to work that way were

434
00:31:19.519 --> 00:31:26.559
not the customers we wanted to keep
long term. I completely can see that

435
00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:32.200
it's a whole different way of connecting
with and serving your clients. And again,

436
00:31:32.359 --> 00:31:33.960
part of the reason I wanted to
have you in the show, Kirk,

437
00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:37.839
is that I do see the connection
between value pricing and really working with

438
00:31:37.000 --> 00:31:42.559
a purpose and your why. I
totally see that lineage. There is a

439
00:31:42.559 --> 00:31:48.720
connection because if you're passionate about what
you do, and most professionals are,

440
00:31:48.839 --> 00:31:53.279
because you know, it takes a
lot of blood, sweat and tiers to

441
00:31:53.440 --> 00:31:57.720
get the degree or pass the bar
exam or whatever it is to set up

442
00:31:57.720 --> 00:32:01.400
our practice to get custom to build
that referral network, ET cetera, et

443
00:32:01.440 --> 00:32:06.559
cetera. It takes a lot of
time and effort to do that. So

444
00:32:06.640 --> 00:32:09.039
we're passionate about what we do.
We generally would not do it for something

445
00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:14.240
that we have no interest in whatsoever. If we're that passionate about it,

446
00:32:14.279 --> 00:32:20.440
and that is where our why is
coming from, why would you not want

447
00:32:20.519 --> 00:32:24.599
to carry that concept forward? Align
with your customers? Why so that everything

448
00:32:24.680 --> 00:32:30.039
is incongruent And as your show is
working on purpose, we're just identifying the

449
00:32:30.039 --> 00:32:36.160
purpose that we're working on to be
what is the reason the customer wants what

450
00:32:36.200 --> 00:32:38.720
they want, what is the outcome? How's that going to impact them?

451
00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:43.000
And we're going to align with that. And we're also going far enough to

452
00:32:43.000 --> 00:32:46.319
say if the value's not there,
we're not going to engage. We're not

453
00:32:46.400 --> 00:32:50.839
going to engage you at an hourity
rate because you think it's a good idea.

454
00:32:51.680 --> 00:32:54.119
If the value's not there, we
won't engage. The value is there,

455
00:32:54.440 --> 00:32:59.839
we're going to give you a fixed
price with a money back guarantee.

456
00:33:00.200 --> 00:33:06.640
Questions asked I like it, Kurt, I like it. I like it,

457
00:33:06.680 --> 00:33:08.640
And and that actually brings me to
the next question. What I'd like

458
00:33:08.680 --> 00:33:14.480
to ask if you're if you're game
to change topics, are you? I

459
00:33:14.519 --> 00:33:16.920
am? Okay, wasn't there anything
else you wanted to say? From the

460
00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:21.240
vantage point of being a provider?
I like it if you don't mind to

461
00:33:21.279 --> 00:33:24.240
share a bit about how you do
consult in terms of your art of value

462
00:33:24.279 --> 00:33:30.279
practice. And you, I know
that you teach other business owners this business

463
00:33:30.319 --> 00:33:34.079
model, so I'm just curious to
know how is it that you do You

464
00:33:34.119 --> 00:33:38.319
work with your clients in that regard, So work with clients in you know,

465
00:33:38.359 --> 00:33:40.839
two or three different ways. I
do coaching, which a lot of

466
00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:46.680
times that's with either solo or smaller
firms. I do consulting with larger firms

467
00:33:46.720 --> 00:33:50.880
where I actually go in and work
with them long term. And then I

468
00:33:50.920 --> 00:33:54.680
also do speaking as well. So
those are I guess the primary three ways

469
00:33:54.680 --> 00:33:59.799
that I work with customers. The
biggest thing that I try to help customers

470
00:33:59.839 --> 00:34:05.599
do is to change a mindset,
because value pricing is more than just a

471
00:34:05.640 --> 00:34:08.519
way to charge the customer, so
to speak. It is a philosophy.

472
00:34:08.559 --> 00:34:13.039
It's a state of mind. It's
a way of thinking about things. I

473
00:34:13.079 --> 00:34:19.239
call it the value lifestyle. And
you first have to change your mindset before

474
00:34:20.360 --> 00:34:23.480
you can really implement this fully.
In order to change your mindset, you

475
00:34:23.559 --> 00:34:28.079
also have to be committed to it. You can't treat it as something and

476
00:34:28.199 --> 00:34:30.079
we'll give this a shot and see
if it works. No, it will

477
00:34:30.119 --> 00:34:34.440
work, because there's too many people
who've tried it and been successful for it

478
00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:37.599
not to be. If it doesn't
work, then something was missed along the

479
00:34:37.599 --> 00:34:39.519
way. Generally, with a mindset, what I find a lot of times

480
00:34:39.760 --> 00:34:45.599
is people are still working from an
hourly mentality. They're given the customer a

481
00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:49.440
fixed price, but then you know
in the back room they're still tracking their

482
00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:52.599
time and calculating their houry rate and
trying to see did I cover my cost.

483
00:34:52.480 --> 00:34:57.360
If you are truly pricing based on
the value that you're creating for the

484
00:34:57.400 --> 00:35:00.559
customer, and you're having a great
conversation with them so that you discover that

485
00:35:00.679 --> 00:35:05.079
value, the margin's going to be
there. You may miss it occasionally on

486
00:35:05.239 --> 00:35:08.000
a project here or a project there. Nobody hits a home run every time,

487
00:35:08.440 --> 00:35:15.719
but you're going to on a regular
basis be hitting higher margins so that

488
00:35:15.800 --> 00:35:19.360
you can cover your mistakes. I
had a guess on my show one time,

489
00:35:19.400 --> 00:35:23.559
Matt Ryapal, and he said,
pricing covers a multitude of mistakes.

490
00:35:23.840 --> 00:35:29.320
What he's saying is, if you
focus on getting the price right in relation

491
00:35:29.400 --> 00:35:31.679
to the value for the customer,
you can make mistakes in other areas and

492
00:35:31.719 --> 00:35:38.480
you're still going to be able to
last through those mistakes. You'll be able

493
00:35:38.519 --> 00:35:44.960
to cover whatever it is because you
set your target on what was important for

494
00:35:45.000 --> 00:35:46.920
them. And that's really why this
business model makes so much sense. I

495
00:35:46.920 --> 00:35:52.079
mean, I talk a lot about
the increased revenue and profit to the provider,

496
00:35:52.280 --> 00:35:54.679
but ultimately it's really because it's the
right way to serve the customer.

497
00:35:55.559 --> 00:36:00.320
Well, it certainly lands well for
me, Kirk and I I think you've

498
00:36:00.320 --> 00:36:02.639
explained it extremely well. And I
guess the other thing I would want to

499
00:36:02.639 --> 00:36:07.119
ask is that I would think just
like you. I mean, you were

500
00:36:07.159 --> 00:36:09.320
the other polar into this deal on
that speaker panel that you were in in

501
00:36:09.360 --> 00:36:14.800
twenty ten, and here you are
created a business and speak and coach and

502
00:36:15.119 --> 00:36:16.519
are writing a book about this and
have done a conference about this. I

503
00:36:16.519 --> 00:36:22.880
want to talk about those things too, by the way, So it strikes

504
00:36:22.920 --> 00:36:28.000
me at almost like a movement.
It is a movement, and you know,

505
00:36:28.159 --> 00:36:31.559
I'm indebted to a couple of my
friends and mentors who've helped me in

506
00:36:31.599 --> 00:36:35.840
this regard. Ron Baker, who's
written books on this topic. My friend

507
00:36:36.039 --> 00:36:40.199
Ed Kles who works at Safe Software, have both helped me on this journey.

508
00:36:40.239 --> 00:36:44.159
And that's one of the reasons I'm
so passionate about helping others is because

509
00:36:44.199 --> 00:36:46.559
I've been helped. But we estimate, and we haven't done any formal statistics,

510
00:36:46.599 --> 00:36:51.280
but we estimate from speaking at conferences
and I say, we meeting the

511
00:36:51.360 --> 00:36:55.079
vers Age Institute, which is a
group of about twenty fellows who are dedicated

512
00:36:55.199 --> 00:37:02.320
to teaching this business model across various
professions. We estimate probably about five percent,

513
00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:07.000
for example, the accounting profession,
probably about five percent of accountants and

514
00:37:07.039 --> 00:37:10.519
bookkeepers are implementing this business model.
That means the other ninety five percent or

515
00:37:10.519 --> 00:37:15.280
not, and that's who we're focused
on. So there's a lot of work

516
00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:21.119
to do there. But I believe
accountants and bookkeepers and also lawyers and the

517
00:37:21.159 --> 00:37:24.320
other professions, you're either going to
choose to go this direction because you realize

518
00:37:24.400 --> 00:37:28.159
it's a better way to do business, or you're eventually going to be forced

519
00:37:28.159 --> 00:37:32.000
to because technology is coming, Artificial
intelligence is coming, and some of that's

520
00:37:32.039 --> 00:37:36.039
not already coming, it's already here, and there's going to be more advances,

521
00:37:36.320 --> 00:37:38.760
so we're going to have to change
and customers are getting smarter as well.

522
00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:44.280
This whole idea of building by the
hour, it's just such a crappy

523
00:37:44.320 --> 00:37:47.559
business model. It was actually came
out of the Industrial Revolution, you know,

524
00:37:47.760 --> 00:37:52.320
it's an idea for manufacturing, and
it just it makes no sense.

525
00:37:52.559 --> 00:37:57.119
There's just there's no way to defend
it. And so we're just wanting professionals

526
00:37:57.119 --> 00:38:01.599
to offer something to their customer that
makes it just a transformation or experience.

527
00:38:01.599 --> 00:38:07.079
I mean, you think about Disney
as a company. Disney sells memories,

528
00:38:07.840 --> 00:38:13.880
what do you use so true all
or a lawyer or a software developer or

529
00:38:13.920 --> 00:38:17.199
a creative what do you sell and
how can you take your business into something

530
00:38:17.239 --> 00:38:22.000
that's transformational? You know, Kirk, this is a great reason why I

531
00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:25.840
want to have in the show because
I certainly want to be able to evangelize

532
00:38:25.840 --> 00:38:30.719
ideas like this and a movement like
this. And I really also appreciate how

533
00:38:30.760 --> 00:38:36.719
you connected how artificial intelligence and robotics, etc. Will impact how people do

534
00:38:36.800 --> 00:38:39.639
their work and certainly price that's something
that's an enormous interest to me. So

535
00:38:40.320 --> 00:38:43.679
we may want to pick that up
again after the break, but it's already

536
00:38:43.679 --> 00:38:45.920
time for us to cut again.
I'm Alis Cortes, your host. We've

537
00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:49.199
been on the air with Kirk Bowman, who is the founder of Art of

538
00:38:49.280 --> 00:38:52.880
Value, which is a value pricing
consultancy in Dallas, Texas. He's also

539
00:38:52.920 --> 00:38:55.199
a practicing fellow at the Very Sage
Institute. He's the host of the Art

540
00:38:55.239 --> 00:38:59.840
and Value Show, which is a
weekly podcast dedicated to exploring the business model

541
00:38:59.840 --> 00:39:02.800
of value pricing and professional services.
He joined us today from Allen, Texas.

542
00:39:02.960 --> 00:39:07.599
We've been talking this time a bit
about how value pricing is beneficial to

543
00:39:07.639 --> 00:39:10.480
the service provider. After the break, we'll get into more of his thought

544
00:39:10.559 --> 00:39:14.400
leadership in terms of his book and
his conference. See what else he's up

545
00:39:14.400 --> 00:39:30.559
to stay with us, We'll be
right back. Friend us on Facebook to

546
00:39:30.599 --> 00:39:36.360
keep up with what's empowering the world. Voice America Empowerment. Alis Cortez is

547
00:39:36.400 --> 00:39:40.679
a speaker and engagement and development catalyst. She designs and delivers professional development,

548
00:39:40.840 --> 00:39:45.920
leadership and engagement workshops and can bring
her expertise to your organization. She will

549
00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:52.079
help ignite meaningful development within your workforce
that will increase employee engagement performance and retention.

550
00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:57.000
To learn more or to invite Elise
to speak to your organization, please

551
00:39:57.079 --> 00:40:02.000
visit her at www dot Elise Corte. She would welcome the opportunity to help

552
00:40:02.039 --> 00:40:07.480
get your employees working on purpose.
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553
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562
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564
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565
00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:42.719
our program today, please call in
to one triple eight three four six nine

566
00:41:42.760 --> 00:41:46.400
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567
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one. You may also send an
email to Aleise A. L I s

568
00:41:52.039 --> 00:42:00.280
E At Elisecortes dot com. Now
back to Working on Purpose. Thanks for

569
00:42:00.320 --> 00:42:04.400
staying with us, and welcome back
to Working on Purpose. If you're just

570
00:42:04.440 --> 00:42:07.159
tuning in. My guest is Kirk
Bowman, who is the founder of Art

571
00:42:07.199 --> 00:42:09.679
of Value. It's value pricing consultancy
here in SA Dallas, Texas. He's

572
00:42:09.679 --> 00:42:14.639
also a practicing fellow at the Very
Sage Institute. He's the host of the

573
00:42:14.760 --> 00:42:16.800
Art of Value Show, which is
a weekly podcast dedicated to exploring the business

574
00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:21.639
model of value pricing and professional services. I'm your host, Alice Cortes.

575
00:42:22.079 --> 00:42:25.079
So as we were finishing the last
segment there, Kirk, we were talking

576
00:42:25.079 --> 00:42:30.159
a bit about how value value pricing
really also works for the professional services provider,

577
00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:35.719
and that was tremendously illuminating and I
love the idea that you're really in

578
00:42:36.079 --> 00:42:39.480
many ways, what I would say
is you're spearheading a movement which I certainly

579
00:42:39.480 --> 00:42:45.760
embrace. And I also appreciate how
you talked about pricing by the hours back.

580
00:42:45.880 --> 00:42:49.000
It comes back from the manufacturing era, which we all know is being

581
00:42:49.519 --> 00:42:52.119
is a way gone, and certainly
its technology is replacing that. So I

582
00:42:52.119 --> 00:42:57.079
guess I'd be interested to understand just
what it is in relation to the work

583
00:42:57.079 --> 00:43:01.039
you've been doing and this whole philosophy
of yours, how that impacts what you're

584
00:43:01.119 --> 00:43:07.599
creating in the book you're writing.
So I am currently trying to take all

585
00:43:07.639 --> 00:43:13.800
of these ideas and put them into
a book that's really going to take a

586
00:43:13.800 --> 00:43:16.000
lot of the things I teach.
And you know, one of the things,

587
00:43:16.039 --> 00:43:19.239
you know, they say, if
you want to learn something, teach

588
00:43:19.280 --> 00:43:21.679
it with if you want to really
learn it, write a book, right

589
00:43:21.800 --> 00:43:27.760
because it forces you to think through
things and really make your ideas concrete and

590
00:43:27.840 --> 00:43:31.440
comprehensible in a way that just just
talking about them and teaching them doesn't.

591
00:43:31.760 --> 00:43:36.360
And so that's what I'm trying to
achieve through the book, is not only

592
00:43:36.400 --> 00:43:40.599
to make it more approachable for those
who may or may not engage me in

593
00:43:40.679 --> 00:43:46.400
some professional way, but also force
me to make it even more concrete and

594
00:43:46.480 --> 00:43:52.440
advance my thinking in that area.
So that's that's kind of what's coming behind

595
00:43:52.480 --> 00:43:57.159
the book. Okay, I got
to say two things about Kirk. First,

596
00:43:57.639 --> 00:44:00.679
I think you know that I'm writing
my own book about my research around

597
00:44:00.719 --> 00:44:05.280
meaning, work and identity, and
I completely agree with you that writing is

598
00:44:05.320 --> 00:44:07.920
a way for you to crystallize your
own thinking about whatever it is that you're

599
00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:12.400
trying to render on paper, No
question about that, which is why in

600
00:44:12.440 --> 00:44:16.880
many cases I have blank chapters.
Secondly, I'll tell you that as an

601
00:44:16.920 --> 00:44:22.119
adjunct professor at Southern Methodist University,
I teach various communication and internship classes there,

602
00:44:22.159 --> 00:44:27.760
and my students do write papers,
and of course it is abundantly obvious

603
00:44:28.079 --> 00:44:30.199
who knows what they're talking about according
to the way they write, right,

604
00:44:30.239 --> 00:44:35.400
It's really clear you know this or
you don't. So I just really want

605
00:44:35.440 --> 00:44:37.239
to echo what you said there and
the brilliance of that end. I also

606
00:44:37.320 --> 00:44:42.880
want to applaud that you take your
craft so seriously that you would endeavor the

607
00:44:42.920 --> 00:44:46.800
whole book writing process in order to
develop and crystallize your own thinking as an

608
00:44:46.800 --> 00:44:50.599
offering. I just I want to
applaud that, Kirk, that's awesome.

609
00:44:52.079 --> 00:44:54.800
I can't remember where I heard this, but Seth Godin somebody asked him how

610
00:44:54.840 --> 00:44:58.239
do you come up with the titles, or how do you come up with

611
00:44:58.280 --> 00:45:00.559
your books, or why do you
write books? Something like that, And

612
00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:04.320
his response was, I write the
ones that I have to get out.

613
00:45:05.360 --> 00:45:07.239
In other words, he was saying, I don't write books because I like

614
00:45:07.280 --> 00:45:13.559
writing books. I write books because
there's ideas within me that will literally tear

615
00:45:13.639 --> 00:45:17.000
me from the inside out if I
don't put them down to paper. I

616
00:45:17.000 --> 00:45:21.840
appreciate that. That's absolutely true for
me too. With my research. I

617
00:45:21.840 --> 00:45:24.599
have written a couple of articles which
in and of themselves where I wouldn't call

618
00:45:24.639 --> 00:45:30.800
them birthing rights by any stretch because
I have been through childbirth. But you

619
00:45:30.840 --> 00:45:34.199
know, certainly a mini series I
could count for that. So I can

620
00:45:34.239 --> 00:45:37.840
appreciate that definitely tore me. I
needed to get it on paper. Yeah,

621
00:45:37.880 --> 00:45:40.960
I've never met anybody who said,
oh, I'm so looking forward to

622
00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:45.079
writing a book. No, everybody
is glad when the book's done. They're

623
00:45:45.119 --> 00:45:49.400
thanking their family and all those kind
of things. Writing a book is a

624
00:45:49.480 --> 00:45:54.280
labor of love, and it's because
the subject matter is so transformational from the

625
00:45:54.360 --> 00:46:00.559
viewpoint of the author that it would
be a disservice to their fellow human beings

626
00:46:00.639 --> 00:46:05.840
if they did not put it out
there. M okay. Now to that

627
00:46:06.000 --> 00:46:07.559
end, one of the other things
that I really appreciate about you as a

628
00:46:07.599 --> 00:46:10.000
human being and as a professional,
Kirk, is that I do see you

629
00:46:10.079 --> 00:46:14.039
as a thought leader. Here you
are, I mean you are, you

630
00:46:14.159 --> 00:46:17.880
are a practicing fellow at the Vera
Stage Institute. I do believe and see

631
00:46:17.880 --> 00:46:22.239
that you work is a movement.
And now I know that. Just a

632
00:46:22.360 --> 00:46:27.559
few weeks ago, I think it
was you you hosted your own Art of

633
00:46:27.639 --> 00:46:32.679
Value conference. Yes, that's true, So tell us about that. Second.

634
00:46:34.840 --> 00:46:38.000
The second full week in November,
we did a two day event which

635
00:46:38.039 --> 00:46:43.199
was the Art of Value Conference.
Myself and my verse Age colleague Ed Kleass

636
00:46:43.280 --> 00:46:50.440
and I entertained about thirty five forty
guests and walk them through this business model

637
00:46:50.440 --> 00:46:54.000
of value pricing. And we had
very many different individuals in the room.

638
00:46:54.079 --> 00:47:00.920
We had a solo accountant from Florida
who lives about an hour ah south of

639
00:47:00.079 --> 00:47:06.480
Orlando, who dropped her customer load
from one hundred and fifty customers to fifty

640
00:47:06.480 --> 00:47:09.760
customers and is making you twice the
amount of money she was previously. And

641
00:47:09.800 --> 00:47:15.000
then we had someone over from the
UK who is the director of a law

642
00:47:15.039 --> 00:47:17.719
firm of two hundred and fifty people. They were both in the room because

643
00:47:17.760 --> 00:47:22.960
they're interested in this business model of
value pricing. They're not at the same

644
00:47:22.079 --> 00:47:24.679
level. Wanted to be doing it
longer, wanted to be doing it less,

645
00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:29.199
but we were teaching this. In
fact, maybe the best way to

646
00:47:29.320 --> 00:47:31.840
kind of give an example of what
the conference is about is if I could

647
00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:35.760
share a testimonial I just got this
past week. Wuld I'd be all right,

648
00:47:36.719 --> 00:47:38.280
I would like that and I would
have best you for that anyway,

649
00:47:38.400 --> 00:47:40.199
just to sort of see how the
stuff plays out in the real world.

650
00:47:40.199 --> 00:47:45.360
So yes, please go for it, all righty. So receive this via

651
00:47:45.400 --> 00:47:49.960
Facebook recently from and this is an
account that she leads a firm of five

652
00:47:50.000 --> 00:47:55.400
people. And she said, my
biggest customer has been growing like crazy,

653
00:47:55.559 --> 00:48:00.400
and so far they've been pricing the
work by the entity or by the company.

654
00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:05.519
So this to your customer has multiple
companies, And she said, because

655
00:48:05.519 --> 00:48:07.480
they're growing so fast, I have
no clue how many deals that we're going

656
00:48:07.480 --> 00:48:10.760
to do in twenty eighteen. But
bottom line is I came with a number,

657
00:48:10.840 --> 00:48:16.119
multiplied it by four and put a
price out there that would basically allow

658
00:48:16.239 --> 00:48:20.639
us to be there for them for
whatever they're going to come up with.

659
00:48:20.719 --> 00:48:23.320
In twenty eighteen, she basically said, I can't imagine there's anything that they

660
00:48:23.360 --> 00:48:28.159
would come to us and ask for
that we couldn't cover based on what we've

661
00:48:28.199 --> 00:48:32.800
been seeing. She went on to
say, he said, let me talk

662
00:48:32.800 --> 00:48:37.800
to my partner, but that she
thought he was going to go with it,

663
00:48:37.880 --> 00:48:38.840
and she said, look, I
may have to hire two people to

664
00:48:38.880 --> 00:48:43.760
make this happen, but because I
was at the conference, I had the

665
00:48:43.800 --> 00:48:46.239
courage, I had the knowledge to
put a price out there at this level,

666
00:48:46.519 --> 00:48:51.119
she called it, and all you
can eat buffet, And it's that

667
00:48:51.280 --> 00:48:54.760
type of transformation that we're wanting to
have with professionals put them in a position

668
00:48:54.880 --> 00:49:01.559
to do that. And so that
was from someone who attended the conference.

669
00:49:01.719 --> 00:49:07.119
And when we get a testimonial like
that, and at various age we tend

670
00:49:07.119 --> 00:49:09.880
to get these on a regular basis, we call it an HSD. HSD

671
00:49:10.039 --> 00:49:15.599
stands for high satisfaction day. That's
a day when something happens, you get

672
00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:19.280
a testimonial that's the reason why you
do what you do. And that was

673
00:49:19.280 --> 00:49:23.559
an HSD for both Ed and I
when we got that testimonial works for me

674
00:49:23.599 --> 00:49:28.719
too. I love it. I
love it well. Back in your conference,

675
00:49:28.880 --> 00:49:31.519
I want to go back to this
because I appreciate that a conference takes

676
00:49:31.559 --> 00:49:35.039
an awful lot of work, awful
lot of planning, and awful lot of

677
00:49:35.119 --> 00:49:38.000
hours and energy to actually put on
and attract people to both the people that

678
00:49:38.039 --> 00:49:42.119
are going to contribute their thoughts and
their knowledge as well as those who want

679
00:49:42.159 --> 00:49:45.880
to consume and interact with it.
So I guess I'd like to know two

680
00:49:45.960 --> 00:49:51.119
things. One how long you've been
posting this a conference, and two what

681
00:49:51.239 --> 00:49:55.880
is it that you're really trying to
do in that conference? So the conference,

682
00:49:55.960 --> 00:49:59.760
this was our first year. This
is the first time we've ever done

683
00:49:59.760 --> 00:50:04.800
it. We were fortunate to be
able to hold it right before the vari

684
00:50:04.880 --> 00:50:09.599
Stage Symposium. So the Veri Stage
Symposium is a conference that happens every other

685
00:50:09.719 --> 00:50:15.639
year and it jumps around from place
to place. So like two years ago,

686
00:50:15.639 --> 00:50:19.400
it was in Boston, Before that, it was in Vegas and so

687
00:50:19.440 --> 00:50:22.440
forth. This year we decided to
do it in Dallas, and so we

688
00:50:22.480 --> 00:50:25.320
thought, okay, let's put on
our own conference right before that. And

689
00:50:25.960 --> 00:50:30.280
like I said, we had about
forty people. What we're trying to accomplish

690
00:50:30.440 --> 00:50:35.519
there is. Value pricing is not
something that you're like, Okay, two

691
00:50:35.519 --> 00:50:38.559
plus two is four. Got it. No, it's very subjective. That's

692
00:50:38.599 --> 00:50:42.239
one of the reasons why so many
times I get the question how do you

693
00:50:42.280 --> 00:50:45.199
come up with a number? It
requires a lot of iterative type of learning.

694
00:50:45.280 --> 00:50:51.800
The testimonial I read just a minute
ago, she had been practicing value

695
00:50:51.840 --> 00:50:54.440
pricing in her business for a few
years, but by coming to the conference,

696
00:50:54.559 --> 00:50:58.719
it put her back in that headspace
again. It allowed her to renew

697
00:50:58.760 --> 00:51:01.599
her mindset, to go deep into
the philosophy of the business model, and

698
00:51:01.639 --> 00:51:06.079
it put her in a position to
be able to accomplish that. So that's

699
00:51:06.119 --> 00:51:09.079
what we're trying to do. We're
trying to make progress with mindset. We're

700
00:51:09.079 --> 00:51:15.360
trying to help deepen the mindset,
to expand the horizon of the philosophy,

701
00:51:15.800 --> 00:51:20.000
to help people take it further,
because it's a journey and you're never going

702
00:51:20.039 --> 00:51:23.360
to arrive. Yes, there are
people who started earlier on the journey who

703
00:51:23.400 --> 00:51:27.000
may or may not be ahead of
you, But the bottom line is we're

704
00:51:27.000 --> 00:51:30.960
each on our own journey in this
discipline of value pricing, and so what

705
00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:35.800
we're trying to do is help everyone
advance, hopefully not just one level,

706
00:51:35.840 --> 00:51:39.519
but maybe two or three levels from
being at the conference and interacting with other

707
00:51:39.599 --> 00:51:43.079
people. You know how it works
with your headspace, right, You go

708
00:51:43.199 --> 00:51:45.880
to a conference that's focused on one
thing, and after a while, your

709
00:51:45.920 --> 00:51:50.679
brain just starts clicking on it because
you've been thinking about it and processing about

710
00:51:50.719 --> 00:51:52.880
it, and some of your best
ideas come up in that time. And

711
00:51:52.960 --> 00:51:57.559
that's why we hosted the conference,
because in order to be successful with this,

712
00:51:57.880 --> 00:52:05.400
you have to continually be growing and
learning in the practice, no question

713
00:52:05.440 --> 00:52:07.400
about it. And I'll tell you
I certainly have an interest in being able

714
00:52:07.440 --> 00:52:12.480
to create a conference. The reason
I perked up about this is I would

715
00:52:12.519 --> 00:52:15.199
like to be able to gather thought
leaders too around the world related to working

716
00:52:15.199 --> 00:52:17.280
on purpose and what does that look
like and why is that important? What

717
00:52:17.320 --> 00:52:21.199
does that do for engagement? What
does that do for performance? What does

718
00:52:21.239 --> 00:52:23.039
that do for reattention? All those
important things that matter to the world of

719
00:52:23.119 --> 00:52:30.880
organizations, and certainly return an investment
for talent. So I think it's brilliant

720
00:52:30.920 --> 00:52:34.280
and I am tickled pink that I've
been able to cross paths with you.

721
00:52:34.360 --> 00:52:37.599
As I say, it was kind
of a shared dumb luck, or if

722
00:52:37.639 --> 00:52:39.480
you want to call that, the
universe had it was looking out for me

723
00:52:39.559 --> 00:52:44.360
and tripped me and had me fall
into into the symposium to meet you.

724
00:52:44.519 --> 00:52:47.000
But I'm glad for that, Kirk. This has been such an illuminating conversation

725
00:52:47.079 --> 00:52:52.159
for me. Well, I thoroughly
enjoyed you got me wound up, and

726
00:52:52.199 --> 00:52:54.599
I appreciate you giving me an opportunity
to share these ideas with your audience.

727
00:52:55.840 --> 00:52:59.519
Oh my gosh, you are welcome, and we have just a couple of

728
00:52:59.519 --> 00:53:00.639
minutes left here in the show,
Kirk, and I always like to give

729
00:53:00.639 --> 00:53:02.800
my guest, if you will,
a bit of the last word. So,

730
00:53:04.320 --> 00:53:07.440
and maybe you know a minute to
ninety seconds, what would you like

731
00:53:07.440 --> 00:53:10.719
to leave our listeners with today?
So, I think if there was one

732
00:53:10.800 --> 00:53:15.480
thing that I could leave with your
audience, it would be this that whether

733
00:53:15.639 --> 00:53:22.239
you have sold services by the hour
or you purchase services by the hour,

734
00:53:22.880 --> 00:53:27.320
I would challenge you to think about
what would the experience be like, both

735
00:53:27.360 --> 00:53:31.079
for you as a customer or you
as a professional. If you were able

736
00:53:31.119 --> 00:53:38.000
to deliver to the customer same or
better results at a fixed price, how

737
00:53:38.079 --> 00:53:45.400
would that change the experience? I
think you will realize as a customer,

738
00:53:45.840 --> 00:53:50.119
you would much rather buy that way
than with the other model, because one

739
00:53:50.159 --> 00:53:52.880
has certainty and one doesn't. One
puts all the risk on the customer,

740
00:53:53.079 --> 00:53:57.440
one puts most of the risk on
the professional. That's what I would want

741
00:53:57.480 --> 00:54:00.440
to leave you with, so that
whether you are actually an attorney, accountant,

742
00:54:00.480 --> 00:54:04.719
or some of the other professions I've
mentioned, you'll think about how you

743
00:54:04.760 --> 00:54:09.880
interact with professionals. My goal is
I want to completely eradicate the Bill of

744
00:54:09.920 --> 00:54:15.960
Ale hour out of existence, because
I think it's horrible. I'm with you,

745
00:54:15.199 --> 00:54:17.480
I'm with you. There sounds great
to me. I'm a convert.

746
00:54:17.519 --> 00:54:22.079
Thank you, Kirk. I really
appreciate that you that you joined me and

747
00:54:22.119 --> 00:54:23.679
actually at fairly late. Notice I
invited you to come on, and you

748
00:54:23.719 --> 00:54:27.559
said, you know, I can
make that work. So I really appreciate

749
00:54:27.599 --> 00:54:32.000
your flexibility. I appreciate that you
shared your passion. I get so much

750
00:54:32.079 --> 00:54:36.119
that this is a this is a
purpose for you, This is a purpose

751
00:54:36.159 --> 00:54:38.880
driven business for you, and I
really appreciate that you shared your passion and

752
00:54:38.920 --> 00:54:43.920
your conviction with us this afternoon.
Thank you, You're very welcome. Thank

753
00:54:43.960 --> 00:54:45.679
you for having me to be a
guest. If you want to learn more

754
00:54:45.719 --> 00:54:49.800
about Kirk Bowman and the work he's
doing to help business owners convert to a

755
00:54:49.880 --> 00:54:54.920
value pricing model. Visit him at
www dot artovalue dot com. That's where

756
00:54:54.920 --> 00:54:58.440
you can find information about him and
how to contact him and see what he's

757
00:54:58.519 --> 00:55:01.440
up to there. Week we'll be
on the air with doctor Owen Lynch,

758
00:55:01.440 --> 00:55:06.199
who is Associate Professor of Communication Studies
at Southern Methodist University, where he and

759
00:55:06.239 --> 00:55:09.239
I both teach. He's also the
director of Research and Collaboration at Get Healthy

760
00:55:09.320 --> 00:55:13.639
Dallalls. He is also my co
author, by the way, in the

761
00:55:13.639 --> 00:55:15.400
work that I'm doing on my medium
work research and the book that we're writing,

762
00:55:15.440 --> 00:55:20.119
so I know him well. We'll
be hearing about his passion, his

763
00:55:20.159 --> 00:55:22.239
insights about the work he and his
team are doing here in Dallas to address

764
00:55:22.280 --> 00:55:25.760
food deserts, among many other topics
of interest in things that he's working on.

765
00:55:27.320 --> 00:55:29.679
See you then, remember that work
is at least one third of our

766
00:55:29.679 --> 00:55:38.400
life, so let's work on purpose. We hope you've enjoyed this week's program.

767
00:55:38.559 --> 00:55:44.239
Be sure to tune into Working on
Purpose featuring your host Elis Cortes every

768
00:55:44.280 --> 00:55:49.320
Wednesday at six pm Eastern time three
pm Pacific time on the Voice America Empowerment

769
00:55:49.400 --> 00:55:52.920
channel this week, find your life's
purpose at work.

Kirk Bowman on the Art of Value

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