Nov. 20, 2024

Is Your Work Working For You? Reimaging Money and Lifestyle

Is Your Work Working For You? Reimaging Money and Lifestyle

Work isn’t just about a paycheck— it’s the framework that shapes our lives. In this episode, we explore the tension between pursuing a job, a career, or a calling and the practical realities of economic necessity. From the fallout of 9/11 to the...

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Work isn’t just about a paycheck— it’s the framework that shapes our lives. In this episode, we explore the tension between pursuing a job, a career, or a calling and the practical realities of economic necessity. From the fallout of 9/11 to the global upheaval of the COVID-19 pandemic, we've seen how societal shifts influence our work-life connection. What if we flipped the script? Instead of letting work dictate our lifestyle, could we design our careers around the lifestyle we truly want?

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WEBVTT

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The topics and opinions express in the following show are

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solely those of the hosts and their guests, and not

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those of W FOURCY Radio. It's employees are affiliates. We

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be directed to those show hosts. Thank you for choosing

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W FOURCY Radio.

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What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the

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answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose

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at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their

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lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization

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that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their

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highest potential. Business can be such a force for good

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in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide

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guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we

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all want Working on Purpose. Now, here's your host, doctor

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Elise Cortez.

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Welcome back to the Working on Purpose program, which has

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been brought to you with passionate pride since February of

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twenty fifteen. Thanks for tuning in again this week. Great

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to have you. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes. If

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we've not met before and you don't know me, I'm

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an organizational psychologist and logo therapist, speaker and author. My

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team and I at gusto Now help companies in liven

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and fortify their operations by building a dynamic, high performance

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culture and inspirational leadership activated by meaning and purpose. You

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can learn more about us and how we can work

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together at gustodesh now dot com or my personal site,

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Atliscortes dot com. Now getting in today's program, We have

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with us today doctor Christopher Wong Michaelson, a philosopher with

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twenty five years of experience advising business leaders, pursuing meeting

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and providing work with a purpose. He is the Barbara

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and David A. Cook Coach, Endowed Chair in Business Ethics

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and Academic director of the Melrose and the Toro Company

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Center for Principal Leadership at the University of Saint Thomas

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and the Business and Society Faculty for NYU's Stern School

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of Business. Also we have with this doctor Jennifer Tossti Karus,

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who is the Camellia Latino Spinelli Endowed Term Chair and

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Professor of Management at Abson College. She teaches researchers and

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coaches others about what it means to craft a meaningful

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career and appreciate that risks and rewards of work as

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a calling. Together, we have written is Your Work Worth It?

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How to think about meaningful work, which will be talking

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about on today's podcast. Christopher Joins is from Minneapolis and

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Jennifer Joines from Boston. Christopher and jen Welcome to Working

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on Purpose.

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Thank you so much. At least, we're so happy to

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be here.

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I'm glad that you were recruitable and I reached out

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to you when I saw your beautiful book and I

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was like, this is solid fodder for Working on Purpose.

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I have got to have them. So thank you for

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saying yes.

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Thank you so much for asking us.

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Welcome. Welcome. So since our listeners and viewers have not

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missed you the way that I have, because I read

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my guest books to cover as you now know, and

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I know something about both of you, but they don't.

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So let's just if we could open with each of

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you talking a little bit about your background. And how

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you found your way into academia because that wasn't your

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original start.

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Yeah. Absolutely, I'm happy to start. So I was an

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undergraduate business major and I thought I would definitely go

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into either management consulting or investment banking. But along the way,

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I was a TA for a class, and that's where

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I really got this academic bug. I really really wanted

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to get experience on the other side of the classroom.

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I knew what being a student was like, but I

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didn't know what being a professor was like. I then

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went on to become a management consultant, living and working

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in New York City doing strategy consulting and traveling a lot,

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and it was all very exciting. But after the nine

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to eleven attacks, like many New Yorkers, I reconsidered what

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am I doing and why and decided to apply for

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a PhD program in management in organizational behavior, which is

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my field. So I have a lot of training in

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organizational psychology and the rest is history. From there, I

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went on to become a full time professor, scholar, teacher,

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and author.

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Love it. There's some interesting similarities there, Christopher.

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So our experiences converged in New York City around nine

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to eleven, and we both changed careers after nine to

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eleven within a year or two. But otherwise my journey

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is pretty much the exact opposite. I was a philosophy

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major as an undergraduate, and I never gave even a

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thought to management consulting or investment banking. Those meant nothing

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to me whatsoever. But I wanted to make a difference

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in the real world. And I realized after getting a

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PhD in philosophy, where I could study the meaning of life,

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that I didn't really want to be in an insular

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philosophy department studying smaller questions than the meaning of life.

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I wanted to make a difference in the real world.

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And so I actually helped launch a business ethics advisory

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practice in one of the large management consulting firms, and

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that's how I ended up in the same place around

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the same time in New York City as Jen. And

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then it was just sort of by luck and happenstance

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that I got asked to teach what I was consulting

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in back in academia, and I went back into academia,

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and this was our first research project together, studying the

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meaning of work in the lives of nine to eleven victims.

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Which was beautiful how you write about it in your

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book really beautiful. I will just quickly say that to

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piggyback off both of your stories. A part of my

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reason for getting a PhD, which we will get into later,

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was it was probably my best reaction to my early

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onset midlife crisis. And I also studied meaning and work

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and identity actually earlier on, which is what kind of

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got me to this camp. So three of us have

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some very interesting overlaps here. Now, what did in factor

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in for me really per se into my journey except

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that I was on the West coast for it was

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nine to eleven. So what I love to do next,

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I really appreciate what you've done in your book is

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you've situated how both nine to eleven and the COVID

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nineteen pandemic really situated or changed a lot of things

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in relation to how we think about our lives, well,

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from our lives and from our work. So if you

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could talk about each of those as separate incidences and

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how they did impact us, especially from in the realm

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of work.

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Yeah, So the nine to eleven attacks were, among other things,

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a workplace tragedy. The vast majority of those who died

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in the attacks died at work, either at the Twin

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Towers or as first responders sort of coming in to

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the Twin Towers, many of whom, by the way, were

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off duty but just couldn't couldn't not help. So in

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the wake of those attacks, people have a mortality salience,

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as we say in psychology, where suddenly they become aware

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of the fact that they will die and that it

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may not happen on the timetable that they might expect.

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So suddenly it becomes this existential question of how am

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I spending my time? You know, how I spend my

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days is how I spend my weeks, months, years, and

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then ultimately my life. And the saying is no one

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on their deathbed ever wishes they spend more time at

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the office. But the fact is we all spend a

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lot of time at work. For some of us, it's

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the majority of our waking hours are spent at work.

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So to not contemplate what role work plays, you know,

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it's it's just a big way to make a change

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your life, to make life potentially more meaningful or maybe

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less meaning less, is the way to say it. And

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so something then very similar happened in COVID, where we saw,

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for example, the Great Resignation, where people said, again, life

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is too short to do a job where I don't

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see an impact or I'm not getting at the very

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least what i want from the work that i'm doing.

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And so even though these were very different types of events,

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the impact was sort of similar. And Christopher and I

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sometimes say we wrote the book so that absent a

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gigantic global crisis, people would ask these deep existential questions.

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It shouldn't have to take a crisis to make us

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ask these deep existential questions about what we're doing for

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work and why.

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So appreciate that. What a beautiful explanation. So then I

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want to go on and situate really why as you

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situate why you wrote the book, So you say, this

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book is not going to tell you what to do

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with your work, but it is going to tell you

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to do the work that is worth it, whatever that

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may be. It is about the priority of work worth

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doing in a life worth living that is like just

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for me, where it's at.

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Well, you know, Jen was talking about post nine to eleven,

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and people who are alive back then might remember that

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we were exhorted to go back to work on September twelfth.

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Don't let the terrorists win. They wanted to shut down

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our economy, they wanted to shut down our organizations, and

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so the best thing that we could do was to

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show up. And to this day, nine to eleven, despite

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it being a day of mourning, is not a holiday,

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because it's a day on which we show up to work.

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But then after the pandemic, or during the pandemic, I

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think there were at least two classes of people who

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were thinking in different ways about work. There were the

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office workers or sort of privileged professors like us, who

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could still do their work from the comfort of their homes,

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and in some sense, we're thinking, this is kind of

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a nice gig, you know. I get to wear my

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pajama bottoms while I'm working and take a break in

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the middle of the day, and my dogs are nearby,

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my family's nearby. But then they were the people who

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had to show up on the front lines, and oftentimes

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their work was worth the least in terms of the

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economic value that it was assigned, but arguably worth the

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most with regard to how urgent it was. Maybe there's

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a third group of employees that I didn't think about,

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which was people who were involunteer fairly out of work.

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So it just led everybody to sort of reassess what

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is work worth doing in a life worth living? And

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those questions, as Jen said, are salient after a terrorist attack,

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during a pandemic, or any time.

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I think it's worth noting that you have a whole

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chapter devoted to the answering the question what is work?

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So would you help us understand how you describe what

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is work?

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Yeah? I like to joke here that philosophers can spend

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we could spend literally the rest of this podcast with

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philosophers debating what is work? So Christopher, and so that's

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why I'm taking this question and also why we tried

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to be really specific in the book about what do

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we mean when we say work. The very simplest definition

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that sort of applies is what we tend to think

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of as paid employment. I mean, what comes to someone's

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mind when we say work is probably what we mean.

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But we get a little bit more specific than that.

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We say work is that which is effortful, purposeful. And

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this is the key recognized by society generally as work,

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and a key distinction here is something like housework, raising children,

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doing the chores around the house. When we do it

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for ourselves, it is not societally recognized as work, even

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though we know it is very effortful and very purposeful. Right,

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But when someone we pay someone to do it for us,

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then it becomes work, and so certainly one can. And

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you know, people have quibbled with such definitions about what

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counts as work, and I'm not sure our societal definitions

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always get it right. But for our purposes, we're trying

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to take it as you know, what we would generally

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consider to be paid employment generally fits with what we

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mean when we are talking about work in the.

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Book, even though we recognize the ridiculousness of letting tax

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policy makers decide what work is.

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Yeah, I know, I remember you have some examples in

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your book, like, for example, you know, if somebody were

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to come into your house and clean it for you,

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that is payable work. But if you do it yourself,

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it's not considered work, right, which is fascinating. So I've

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just really had to have you distinguish this idea of

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what is work. Let's go on to then why do

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we work? Boy? There is a multitude of reasons why

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we work, and I also coded for that too when

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I did my research Why do we work?

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Jim, I'm going to let you answer this one because

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this is the based on the research of your dissertation advisor.

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Yeah, absolutely so. I mean we work for reasons that

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are b beyond this typology that I'm about to say

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that was developed by my dissertation advisor. But Amy Resneski,

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who I was lucky to work with when I was

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getting my PhD. I know of her, Yes, I review

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her pop and you know, she's like as wonderful a

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person and a mentor as a scholar, I can attest

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to that. But she popularized an idea that was first

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written about actually within sociology, about you know, how do

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we engage in civic society, And part of it was

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about what is why do people work? And there were

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three different categories a job, a career, and a calling

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and a job and obviously these all have you know, meanings,

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these words have meanings outside of this typology, but for

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the purposes of why we work. A job is when

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we work primarily for external rewards and typically money, So

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we're sort of in it for the money, and it

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maybe fuels a meaningful life outside of work, But the

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work itself is not. You know, we're kind of not working.

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We're working as a means to an end, not a

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meaningful end unto itself. The second is a career, and

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so when we view our work as a career, we're

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in it for again externover wards, but this time it's

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more about ascending within either an organizational hierarchy, climbing a

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career ladder, if you will, or gaining centrality within an

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occupational or industrial community. So think about open source coders

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who really could care less about status within their organization

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but want respect and maybe to be cited or built

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upon within the coding community. And then the last one is,

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and this is where a lot of my research has

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been around, is viewing work as a calling concept which

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originally had religious origins. It was a calling from God

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or a higher power. The Protestants used it, of course,

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though explicitly as God, but which we use in and

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is used in the research in a secular context to mean.

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Here is where work is a meaningful end in and

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of itself. So work is a source of deep passion,

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it's meaningful. It often but not always, does good in

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the world. It makes the world a better place and

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helps others. But again, there are reasons to work, you

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know what, in terms of why we work that go

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beyond that. So we work to have something to you know,

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to way to pass the time. Some of us work

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because of a deep relationship with our coworkers. We love

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the camaraderie of the workplace. Some people are more about

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the craftsmanship that comes with their work or gaining you know,

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excellence or expertise in something for its own sake. So again,

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this typology is not meant to be all inclusive, and

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it's obviously not, but it's what scholars have drawn upon

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to get at some really fundamental differences in we tend

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to work broad categories and how those tend to matter

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for individual and organizational outcomes beautifully explained.

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I will comment on that, but let's take our first break.

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I'm your host, doctor Lee's Cortez. I've been on the

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air with doctor Christopher Wong Michaelson, a philosopher with twenty

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five years of experience advising business leaders, pursuing meaning and

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providing work with a purpose, and doctor Jennifer Tostikatis, who

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teaches researchers and coaches others about what it means to

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craft a med equal career and appreciate the risks and

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boards of work as a calling. We've been talking a

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bit about some of the interesting parts of the first

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part of our book, including why we work and what

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is work. After the break, we're going to get into

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discussing when and how much should we work. We'll be

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right back.

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Doctor Elise Cortez is a management consultant specializing in meaning

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and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies

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visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired

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leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and

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commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite

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a lease to speak to your organization, please visit her

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at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get

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your employees working on purpose. This is Working on Purpose

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with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or

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to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to

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Elise Alise at elisecortes dot com. Now back to working

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on Purpose.

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Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to Working

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on Purpose. I'm your host doctor release Cortes, as I too,

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am dedicated to helping create a world where people realize

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our potential. At work are led by inspiration leaders that

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help them find and contribute their greatness, and we do

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business at Betters the World. I continue to research and

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write my own books. So one of my latest books

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came out in March of twenty twenty three. It's called

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The Great Revitalization, play on their Resignation. How activating meaning

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and purpose can radically enliven your business. And I've worked

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to help leaders understand that, discerning needs and wants of

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today's workforce, and then provide twenty two best practice practices

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to build into your culture to provide that. You can

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find my books on Amazon or check them out on

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my personal website at least Quartes dot com if you

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are just now joining us. My guest is first Christopher

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Wong Michaelson, and also Jennifer Toastikarus. They are the authors

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of Is Your Work Worth It? How to Think about

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Meaningful Work, which is what we've been talking about today.

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So speaking about those three orientations, and I remember doctor

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Amy's work. I came across it some time ago, that

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meaning at Work research that I did. I looked at

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how people what did they find meaningful about their work,

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and how did they did they relate to their work?

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Those two things, the relationship to work and also the

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kind of meaning I've found fifteen modes of engagement, and

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I would say the first couple relate to the calling.

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The ones in the middle or more career. The bottom

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middle segment is definitely job. And then there's the negative segment,

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which is when it's actually negatively experienced but very interesting.

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I was thinking about that as I was preparing that

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there's some really interesting feed to that. Okay, so now

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the great question so many people. One of the things

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I like to think about is how the younger generations

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have taught us that we really don't have to work

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eighty to ninety hours a week. I really appreciate that

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about you, Jen Y and gen Z. So when and

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how much should we work is the next topic.

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So I was recently speaking about the book at a

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conference in the French Alps, and we took a van

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from the airport to the conference site, and the other

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people in the van, some of them were going to

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the conference, and a couple of them were dressed like

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hikers with giant backpacks, and everybody who was going to

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the conference was name dropping and talking about all the

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important things that they'd done, and these two other people

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were just sort of keeping to themselves. My wife and

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I were the last ones in the van with them,

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and then we started talking with them, and they'd been

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listening to the entire conversation. And they were two people

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who used to work for one of the big four

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professional services firms and decided that work the way that

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it is usually done was not for them anymore. And

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they were going to work for a year and then

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take a year off, and work for a year and

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take a year off. And they were in the midst

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of one of their years off, and they were going

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hiking in the French Alps while everybody else was going

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to network and work really hard. And it was hard

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not to think that they were the right ones in

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the van, and all these other quote important people were

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the wrong ones. We talk in the book about several

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stages of life, and I'm not going to go through

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all of them here, but I'll just say, in an

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oversimplified way, our lives are divided into pre working years,

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when we go to school preparing to work and then

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our working years all in service to our post working years.

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And one thing that we tragically discovered in our research

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on nine to eleven in the pandemic is that all

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too many people don't make it to those post working years.

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So why are we trading present happiness for a future

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happiness that might never come. Secondly, there's been research done

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through the ages that suggest that most people, especially in

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affluent markets, their happiness bottoms out when they're earning power

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is highest. So it seems like we are wasting some

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of the best years of our lives by working too

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much or working at the wrong things. And that's why

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we have to ask when should we work, meaning when

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in our lives, but also how much should we work

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and when in the day should we work, given the

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fact that work often separates us from the people who

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matter most.

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You know, that was there's so much who said in

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that that we could go further into. And at the

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same time, because I want to get as much out

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of you as we possibly can, I would love for

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you to also talk about what you wrote about in

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your book, The Schedules that Work Act. There are two

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examples in there that really took my breath away and

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one was the Duncan Donants example. The other one was

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the Amazon example. Could you just share with our listeners

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and viewers what we mean by those two examples, what

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was going on?

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Sure, these were both examples of people who died. Well,

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one died at work. This is the Amazon example, and

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unfortunately there are several such examples of Amazon employees essentially

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working in the warehouses, essentially dropping dead on the job,

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likely from over work and these unreasonable schedules, no bathroom breaks,

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all these things that are now sort of famous about

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Amazon warehouse working conditions and justifications for at least some

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of them to have successfully unionized. But employees were told

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keep working, basically like ignore the corpse and keep working

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like nothing stops the clock. Really kind of this very

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under dark underside of modern day capitalism. The other example

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was a woman who was working multiple jobs, one of

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them was at a Dunkin Donuts. She was napping in

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her car in between the shift and died. And you know,

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just this notion that we have to work, you know,

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many people have to work multiple jobs with unpredictable schedules

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at all hours of the day and night, you know,

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not prioritizing even basic needs in service of simply making

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ends meet. And this ended up being a foundation for

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this Schedules That Work Act, which says in part that

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employers have to give sufficient notice before changing an employee

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schedule so that at least employees can know what are

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the work hours, making sure they're regulated, and you know,

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being able to plan their work in life accordingly. I'll

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note just this Amazon example. You know, I teach a

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class at Babson that partly uses film films about work

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to better understand the nature and culture of the workplace.

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And one of the films that we show is Normal Ray,

437
00:25:55.519 --> 00:25:59.920
which is a famous movie about from the nineteen seventies

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00:26:00.279 --> 00:26:05.880
about a very unhealthy factory or factory workplace that ends

439
00:26:05.960 --> 00:26:08.799
up successfully unionizing in this union push, and you know,

440
00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:11.480
the management opposition to it. And I mean that was

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00:26:11.599 --> 00:26:15.039
decades ago. And just to think that we are here,

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00:26:15.079 --> 00:26:19.920
we are, you know, in the twenty twenties, and conditions

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for many people remain the same as in those days,

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and the fight for labor protections continues.

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Yeah, and that's definitely news that I don't normally get

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my nose into. So I just thought that was really

447
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important and really quite sobering. For me to really know

448
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that this is still out there, happening in the twenty twenties.

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I want to move on to the idea of should

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we work for love or money? And sometimes I recognize

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that I have a very strong bias here, and I've

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00:26:49.839 --> 00:26:52.720
made some choices in my life, some very definitive choices,

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and so when I'm working with people, I try to

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remember that I have a value set and a bias set,

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but your perspective on should we work for love or money?

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00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:05.319
So it's funny that Jen just shared an example from

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modern film, because we often joke that she's the pop

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culture officionado and I'm the snob. So I'm going to

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share an example from modernist painting. The artist Paul Googan.

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We tell a version of his story in the book,

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and this is a story that's sort of become more

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00:27:31.839 --> 00:27:35.799
of a legend than necessarily truth, because it's been studied

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by philosophers, it's been fictionalized by novelists and filmmakers, But essentially,

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as the legend goes, Paulgogan was a workaday stock trader

465
00:27:47.400 --> 00:27:53.200
supporting a middle class family in nineteenth century Paris, and

466
00:27:54.079 --> 00:27:57.119
was bored with his work. Had always wanted to be

467
00:27:57.400 --> 00:27:59.960
in the art world, and so in order to sort

468
00:27:59.960 --> 00:28:03.519
of of address some of his longings to be in

469
00:28:03.559 --> 00:28:06.200
that world, he started trading paintings. But then there was

470
00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:09.559
a stock market crash, he lost his job. He had

471
00:28:09.559 --> 00:28:12.720
trouble finding another job and supporting his family, and so

472
00:28:12.839 --> 00:28:16.359
eventually he just left them with relatives and left them.

473
00:28:16.720 --> 00:28:20.400
He first set sail for the Caribbean. Things didn't work out.

474
00:28:20.519 --> 00:28:22.920
He spent some time with his buddy, Vincent van go

475
00:28:23.160 --> 00:28:27.079
who is also a little bit you know, quzy, let's say,

476
00:28:27.839 --> 00:28:33.559
and eventually he abandoned his family permanently and set sail

477
00:28:33.599 --> 00:28:37.039
for the South Seas, where he painted many of the

478
00:28:37.079 --> 00:28:43.119
canvases that now hang pricelessly in museums. And one of

479
00:28:43.160 --> 00:28:45.480
the questions that we're trying to raise by telling the

480
00:28:45.519 --> 00:28:47.599
story of Paul goo Gan is, you know, if you

481
00:28:47.680 --> 00:28:53.759
become a great artist, then isn't it okay to be

482
00:28:54.000 --> 00:29:00.200
kind of a morally bankrupt human being? If he loved

483
00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:03.599
his work that much and hated his work that much

484
00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:09.599
as a stockbroker, is there something admirable about his choice?

485
00:29:11.519 --> 00:29:15.759
I personally think that he sounds like an awful human being,

486
00:29:16.160 --> 00:29:19.880
but I am grateful that he lived his life so

487
00:29:19.920 --> 00:29:22.519
that we could tell his story in a way that

488
00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:25.640
raises the kinds of questions that we have to think

489
00:29:25.720 --> 00:29:34.160
about as we trade off happiness for sustenance and sometimes

490
00:29:34.759 --> 00:29:41.400
forsake our passions. On the other hand, maybe he should

491
00:29:41.480 --> 00:29:44.720
have thought more of the work that he was doing

492
00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:48.480
to support a family that was certainly worthy of his love,

493
00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:51.440
even though he didn't extend his.

494
00:29:51.400 --> 00:29:55.720
Love to it. There is so much in that question,

495
00:29:55.799 --> 00:29:57.799
and that's why I had you talk about it, because

496
00:29:57.839 --> 00:30:00.000
I know that there are listeners and viewers that can

497
00:30:00.039 --> 00:30:04.119
relate to both sides of that equation. Gogan who wanted

498
00:30:04.119 --> 00:30:06.279
to pursue his passion in the family who left behind

499
00:30:06.319 --> 00:30:08.960
it maybe struggle quite a bit. So there's just so

500
00:30:09.079 --> 00:30:10.839
much in that and I will all the more reason

501
00:30:10.880 --> 00:30:13.079
that I really appreciate what you put forward and forward

502
00:30:13.119 --> 00:30:15.960
in your book. You said, instead of instead of choosing

503
00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:18.440
the work, we need to support the lifestyle we want,

504
00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:21.039
what if we looked looked at it the other way around?

505
00:30:21.359 --> 00:30:24.599
That is, by choosing the lifestyle we can afford within

506
00:30:24.640 --> 00:30:28.599
the limits imposed by the work we aspire to do.

507
00:30:29.400 --> 00:30:31.559
That sounds pretty good to me and kind of what

508
00:30:31.599 --> 00:30:36.920
I've done, what comments on that.

509
00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:39.880
Yeah, well, I mean we, you know, are students. So

510
00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:42.519
Christopher and I both teach in colleges, and so we

511
00:30:42.599 --> 00:30:45.720
teach students who are wondering, you know, for example, my

512
00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:48.680
first job out of college, should I go for love

513
00:30:48.759 --> 00:30:51.680
or money. We teach at business schools, and this idea

514
00:30:51.799 --> 00:30:54.119
of I have to be an investment banker or I

515
00:30:54.160 --> 00:30:56.400
have to be a consultant, because I know I'm going

516
00:30:56.480 --> 00:30:59.000
to work really hard, but I want to make just

517
00:30:59.079 --> 00:31:01.000
a ton of money. A lot of our students think

518
00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:04.920
they're going to work unbelievably long hours in their twenties

519
00:31:05.000 --> 00:31:08.000
and be set for life and then live a life

520
00:31:08.039 --> 00:31:10.759
of leisure or doing whatever it is that they want

521
00:31:10.799 --> 00:31:14.920
to do. And so, you know, just we understand that

522
00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:19.119
at some time it makes sense, especially and I mean

523
00:31:19.160 --> 00:31:21.559
back to these examples of these workers trying to make

524
00:31:21.680 --> 00:31:25.400
ends meet. It is expensive to buy a home in

525
00:31:25.440 --> 00:31:28.839
the cities in which you know, we both live. Students

526
00:31:28.880 --> 00:31:31.920
are graduating with debt. There are lots of reasons why

527
00:31:32.119 --> 00:31:36.519
they might prioritize money over meaning in their especially their

528
00:31:36.559 --> 00:31:40.720
first job out of college. But the idea that you know,

529
00:31:40.799 --> 00:31:45.400
we're on this treadmill, so to speak of earning where

530
00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:48.000
we feel like if we just made a little bit

531
00:31:48.119 --> 00:31:51.480
more then it would be enough, and it's never enough.

532
00:31:51.839 --> 00:31:54.400
You know, this is sort of a well documented phenomenon

533
00:31:54.480 --> 00:31:57.039
that there's some you know, percentage of what our salary

534
00:31:57.160 --> 00:32:00.279
is that we wish we made that much more are

535
00:32:01.000 --> 00:32:05.480
and that you know, the quote that you mentioned speaks

536
00:32:05.480 --> 00:32:08.079
to the possibility that that day will never come when

537
00:32:08.160 --> 00:32:11.680
we actually feel like that's it, I've made it, I've

538
00:32:11.720 --> 00:32:15.680
achieved the desired lifestyle, and now I can stop. And

539
00:32:15.720 --> 00:32:19.680
so it's a little bit of how do we and

540
00:32:19.839 --> 00:32:22.279
it is there can be a trade off, and in many,

541
00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:25.680
many industries there is a trade off where the work

542
00:32:25.839 --> 00:32:29.480
that pays the most comes with strings attached, and the

543
00:32:29.519 --> 00:32:32.640
work that is the most meaningful is not the one

544
00:32:32.720 --> 00:32:39.160
that is going to afford second homes and early retirements

545
00:32:39.200 --> 00:32:41.440
and all these kinds of things that we might that

546
00:32:41.480 --> 00:32:45.359
we might want. But how do we make peace with

547
00:32:47.079 --> 00:32:50.599
you know, what we can justify trading off that allows

548
00:32:50.680 --> 00:32:55.400
us to feel like we're making enough to live, but

549
00:32:55.680 --> 00:33:01.720
maybe not trying to match some there societal expectation or

550
00:33:01.759 --> 00:33:05.640
cultural expectation that is not actually valuable or meaningful to us.

551
00:33:06.680 --> 00:33:08.839
A billion dollar question never mind the million dollar question.

552
00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:11.559
A billion dollar question? All right, well, let's let our

553
00:33:11.599 --> 00:33:13.400
listeners to viewers do on that while we take our

554
00:33:13.400 --> 00:33:17.079
next break. I'm your host, doctor Eleas Cortez. We've went

555
00:33:17.119 --> 00:33:19.799
on the air with doctor Christopher Wong Michaelson, a philosopher

556
00:33:19.839 --> 00:33:22.960
of twenty five years with experience advising business leaders pursuing

557
00:33:23.039 --> 00:33:28.559
meaning and providing work experience, excuse me, twenty five years

558
00:33:28.880 --> 00:33:32.599
experience advising business leaders pursuing meaning and providing work with

559
00:33:32.680 --> 00:33:36.519
a purpose. And also Jennifer Tostakaris, who teaches, researches and

560
00:33:36.559 --> 00:33:39.000
coaches others about what it means to craft a meaningful

561
00:33:39.039 --> 00:33:42.039
career and appreciate the risks and rewards of work as

562
00:33:42.079 --> 00:33:44.519
a calling. After the break, we're going to get into

563
00:33:44.519 --> 00:33:46.960
further that notion of calling, both the risks as well

564
00:33:46.960 --> 00:33:48.480
as the rewards. We'll be right back.

565
00:34:04.160 --> 00:34:07.720
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning

566
00:34:07.799 --> 00:34:11.599
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies

567
00:34:11.679 --> 00:34:15.480
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired

568
00:34:15.559 --> 00:34:19.519
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and

569
00:34:19.599 --> 00:34:22.800
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite

570
00:34:22.840 --> 00:34:25.840
Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her at

571
00:34:25.840 --> 00:34:29.079
Elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your

572
00:34:29.119 --> 00:34:37.920
employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose with

573
00:34:38.039 --> 00:34:41.199
doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or to

574
00:34:41.280 --> 00:34:44.320
open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Elise

575
00:34:44.639 --> 00:34:50.719
Alise at elisecortes dot com. Now back to working on Purpose.

576
00:34:55.679 --> 00:34:57.519
Thanks for Jane with us, and welcome back to Working

577
00:34:57.559 --> 00:35:00.519
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor release Cortes. I mentioned

578
00:35:00.559 --> 00:35:02.320
in the last break that my latest book came out

579
00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:05.239
in twenty twenty three, The Great Vitalization. What I did

580
00:35:05.239 --> 00:35:08.000
for you is I created a simple three page organizational

581
00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:10.360
assessment to help you ascertain the extent to it your

582
00:35:10.400 --> 00:35:14.639
current culture meets the standards of today's discerning workforce. You

583
00:35:14.679 --> 00:35:17.719
can find it on my website Gusto dash Now dot com.

584
00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:20.280
If you are just now joining us. My guest is

585
00:35:20.400 --> 00:35:24.639
doctor Christopher wrong Michaelson and doctor Jennifer Tosticatis, the authors

586
00:35:24.679 --> 00:35:26.880
of Is Your Work Worth It? How to think about

587
00:35:26.960 --> 00:35:31.079
Meaning for Work? So this next question is definitely near

588
00:35:31.159 --> 00:35:33.320
and dear in my heart. It does speak to the

589
00:35:33.360 --> 00:35:35.280
first of the perils if you want the risks of

590
00:35:35.320 --> 00:35:39.000
pursuing a calling. And I appreciated so much that you

591
00:35:39.079 --> 00:35:42.519
talk about this notion that we are in this calling culture.

592
00:35:42.559 --> 00:35:45.679
And when I'm out speaking to audiences and the topic

593
00:35:45.719 --> 00:35:48.840
of purpose comes up, people are literally, you know, there's

594
00:35:48.880 --> 00:35:51.599
this palpable feeling of but I don't know, and it

595
00:35:51.599 --> 00:35:53.159
feels so bad that I don't know what my purpose

596
00:35:53.199 --> 00:35:56.000
is and that there's a shoulding and something that goes

597
00:35:56.079 --> 00:35:58.920
along with that. So I want to hear your perspective.

598
00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:00.480
I don't know if that's you, and because I know

599
00:36:00.519 --> 00:36:03.119
it's a lot of your research that will speak to

600
00:36:03.239 --> 00:36:05.559
first the risks of pursuing a calling.

601
00:36:06.280 --> 00:36:08.519
Yeah, I mean, just as you said, Elise, we are

602
00:36:08.559 --> 00:36:12.159
in a moment where we tell people, and it's well

603
00:36:12.199 --> 00:36:15.360
intentioned advice, but we tell them things like these are

604
00:36:15.400 --> 00:36:17.760
actual book titles. Do what you love and the money

605
00:36:17.800 --> 00:36:21.960
will follow. Find your calling, Love your Life. Steve Jobs

606
00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:24.719
and his famous you know two thousand and five Stanford

607
00:36:24.840 --> 00:36:29.239
University commencement address told people in the audience that the

608
00:36:29.320 --> 00:36:31.960
only way to do great work is to do what

609
00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:34.559
you love, and if you haven't found it yet, keep looking,

610
00:36:34.679 --> 00:36:38.840
don't settle. So these are very unsubtle cues that we

611
00:36:38.880 --> 00:36:42.360
should be doing work. We love finding our calling early on,

612
00:36:43.199 --> 00:36:45.960
as early as possible, that this is a key ingredient

613
00:36:46.039 --> 00:36:50.039
for a successful and happy life. And we see again

614
00:36:50.119 --> 00:36:53.559
from our students and others who we come into contact

615
00:36:53.559 --> 00:36:57.760
with in our own consulting and coaching, a real angst

616
00:36:58.039 --> 00:37:01.880
about if I don't know what that is? Am I

617
00:37:01.960 --> 00:37:04.119
doing it wrong? Have I already failed? I mean, so

618
00:37:04.280 --> 00:37:07.400
you know nineteen twenty year old students in college who

619
00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:09.599
feel like they've already failed because they have failed to

620
00:37:09.639 --> 00:37:13.559
identify their calling. So part of what I, you know,

621
00:37:13.679 --> 00:37:17.320
want this book to do is demystify that not everybody

622
00:37:17.320 --> 00:37:20.960
finds their callings early and journeys toward it. Many people

623
00:37:21.079 --> 00:37:23.840
figure it out as they go, and often the best

624
00:37:23.880 --> 00:37:26.039
thing that we can do is go out and have

625
00:37:26.159 --> 00:37:32.639
experiences good, bad or otherwise to learn from, you know, rapidly, learn, iterate, pivot.

626
00:37:32.679 --> 00:37:36.320
It's very similar to how we describe design thinking or

627
00:37:36.559 --> 00:37:40.639
entrepreneurial mindset. Do things, learn from it, and you'll get closer.

628
00:37:40.679 --> 00:37:43.480
And you know, there are people who feel their work

629
00:37:43.559 --> 00:37:47.480
is a calling despite they weren't the little kids imagining.

630
00:37:47.840 --> 00:37:49.960
Do you know this is my destiny and I'm going

631
00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:52.639
to do a certain line of work one day. So

632
00:37:52.679 --> 00:37:54.880
I just want to dispel that notion of there's sort

633
00:37:54.920 --> 00:37:58.039
of one path or one desired path to a calling,

634
00:37:58.079 --> 00:38:02.639
and it happens early of people find their callings you know,

635
00:38:02.719 --> 00:38:06.880
later in life. Totally fine. The other thing is, maybe

636
00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:10.599
myth to dispel is that a calling is in fact

637
00:38:10.679 --> 00:38:13.559
a shore fire path to a great life. So there

638
00:38:13.559 --> 00:38:17.519
are many risks and perils to work as a calling.

639
00:38:17.679 --> 00:38:20.880
So part of what makes callings so powerful is that

640
00:38:20.920 --> 00:38:24.320
they are almost can borderline on the obsessive. So when

641
00:38:24.400 --> 00:38:27.039
we feel a strong calling toward our work, will often

642
00:38:27.280 --> 00:38:31.000
seek to perform that work at all costs. Those costs

643
00:38:31.039 --> 00:38:33.920
could be cost to us in terms of taking the

644
00:38:34.440 --> 00:38:37.039
breaks from work we need, you know, putting in too

645
00:38:37.119 --> 00:38:42.280
many hours, especially without compensation that justifies those hours. So

646
00:38:42.320 --> 00:38:46.039
from an organization's perspective, these are the great employees who

647
00:38:46.079 --> 00:38:48.800
will go above and beyond, and you know, I always

648
00:38:48.840 --> 00:38:51.519
know I can call on them because they're so dedicated.

649
00:38:51.840 --> 00:38:55.320
But at what point does this become a potential for

650
00:38:55.440 --> 00:39:00.320
employee exploitation. So the very thing that makes me love

651
00:39:00.440 --> 00:39:03.679
my work potentially sets me up to do too much

652
00:39:03.719 --> 00:39:06.440
of it, and you know, potentially to my own ultimately,

653
00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:09.880
my own detriment. You know, I do worry about calling,

654
00:39:10.199 --> 00:39:14.000
you know, strongly calling oriented employees, giving too much of

655
00:39:14.039 --> 00:39:16.960
themselves from work, not being able to disengage in a

656
00:39:16.960 --> 00:39:21.119
healthy way from work, having strained relationships with others at work.

657
00:39:21.159 --> 00:39:26.440
These are all, you know, documented outcomes of feeling a

658
00:39:26.440 --> 00:39:30.960
strong calling toward work, being critical of an employer because well,

659
00:39:30.960 --> 00:39:32.800
that's not how I think it should be done, and

660
00:39:32.880 --> 00:39:35.719
that's not you know, in line with my calling. It

661
00:39:35.800 --> 00:39:40.239
can be a tough path, and it can be a

662
00:39:40.280 --> 00:39:44.400
path that puts my doing of the work, you know,

663
00:39:44.760 --> 00:39:50.480
my way or at all costs, before other considerations about

664
00:39:50.519 --> 00:39:53.400
what might make my life actually good.

665
00:39:54.760 --> 00:39:58.599
That's quite a spectrum to navigate there. Before we get

666
00:39:58.639 --> 00:40:02.679
into a little bit more of thinking about work having

667
00:40:02.719 --> 00:40:04.480
a higher purpose. I do want to talk about this

668
00:40:04.559 --> 00:40:07.800
notion of this is fascinating what you wrote about in

669
00:40:07.840 --> 00:40:09.960
your book, and I do remember this being discussed during

670
00:40:10.119 --> 00:40:15.119
the pandemic is what work can't society do without? I

671
00:40:15.119 --> 00:40:16.800
think they might be able to do without my work,

672
00:40:17.199 --> 00:40:19.280
I'm not so sure. But other work I'm not so

673
00:40:19.360 --> 00:40:19.800
sure about.

674
00:40:21.159 --> 00:40:24.400
Well, you know, as we talk about this I keep

675
00:40:24.440 --> 00:40:30.519
thinking people might be wondering. Is talking about meaningful work?

676
00:40:30.840 --> 00:40:34.000
Is dreaming of work you love? Is that a privilege

677
00:40:34.119 --> 00:40:37.400
only available to a few people? What about those people

678
00:40:37.519 --> 00:40:43.199
who don't have the skills, the education to pursue work

679
00:40:43.239 --> 00:40:48.599
that they love and make a living. There is a

680
00:40:48.719 --> 00:40:53.639
famous framework, often referred to as ekey guy. It's a

681
00:40:53.719 --> 00:40:58.079
Japanese term that roughly translates to reason for being that

682
00:40:58.199 --> 00:41:01.159
suggests that your purpose is to be found at the

683
00:41:01.199 --> 00:41:04.920
intersection of four questions. One question is what are you

684
00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:09.199
good at? Another is what do you love? Another is

685
00:41:09.239 --> 00:41:14.199
what can you be paid for? And the fourth is

686
00:41:14.679 --> 00:41:16.280
escaping me as I speak?

687
00:41:16.559 --> 00:41:17.519
What does the world need?

688
00:41:17.920 --> 00:41:20.519
What can society thank you?

689
00:41:20.599 --> 00:41:20.840
Well?

690
00:41:20.960 --> 00:41:26.599
The very question that we're talking about right now. Yeah,

691
00:41:26.639 --> 00:41:31.159
and that's a really nice set of questions to think

692
00:41:31.199 --> 00:41:34.760
about when you think about the possibility of pursuing your purpose.

693
00:41:34.880 --> 00:41:41.480
But most people won't find work that actually answers all

694
00:41:41.559 --> 00:41:45.480
four of those questions at one time. Many might not

695
00:41:45.519 --> 00:41:49.039
even find work that answers all of those questions over

696
00:41:49.079 --> 00:41:53.000
the course of a career. But that's certainly something that

697
00:41:53.119 --> 00:41:57.880
might be worth aiming for to think about, Well, right now,

698
00:41:58.119 --> 00:42:00.159
I need work that I can be paid for for

699
00:42:00.519 --> 00:42:03.840
that I have the skills to actually perform, and maybe

700
00:42:04.280 --> 00:42:06.639
at this point in my life I need to get

701
00:42:06.679 --> 00:42:10.639
my financial feet under me so that at some future

702
00:42:10.679 --> 00:42:16.000
point I can pursue work that I love or give

703
00:42:16.079 --> 00:42:18.639
to the world in the form of work that the

704
00:42:18.679 --> 00:42:21.719
world needs. So I think it's really important for us

705
00:42:21.800 --> 00:42:27.840
to think about the kinds of privilege that allow us

706
00:42:27.880 --> 00:42:32.079
to ask these questions. But I think it's also important

707
00:42:32.119 --> 00:42:36.199
to recognize that even those who may not have the

708
00:42:36.239 --> 00:42:41.679
privilege to answer these questions might still be wondering about

709
00:42:41.719 --> 00:42:44.760
these questions. You know, the title of the book is

710
00:42:44.760 --> 00:42:48.599
is your work Worth it? And everybody, at some point

711
00:42:48.679 --> 00:42:52.840
on the verge of exhaustion wonders if it's worth it,

712
00:42:53.000 --> 00:42:55.599
even if they don't have the wherewithal to make a change.

713
00:42:56.159 --> 00:42:58.519
And I think one thing that that does is it

714
00:42:58.800 --> 00:43:02.679
sort of it's a burden on the people who do

715
00:43:02.800 --> 00:43:05.719
have the ability to make a change to think about

716
00:43:05.920 --> 00:43:09.119
not just the meaning of their own work, but also

717
00:43:09.920 --> 00:43:13.199
the value of the work that they are providing.

718
00:43:15.320 --> 00:43:17.760
I have to interject to this point. If you don't

719
00:43:17.840 --> 00:43:20.840
know b Bookolandro and her work, She's a colleague of

720
00:43:20.880 --> 00:43:24.199
mine in the purpose community. She wrote a book I

721
00:43:24.239 --> 00:43:26.719
forget what it's called now, but essentially what she's putting

722
00:43:26.760 --> 00:43:29.280
forth is the notion of no matter what our job is,

723
00:43:29.559 --> 00:43:32.000
whether we think it's the cream of the crop and

724
00:43:32.079 --> 00:43:36.280
it curls our toes and it's purposeful or whatever is,

725
00:43:36.320 --> 00:43:38.239
and we can always sneak in this thing called job

726
00:43:38.280 --> 00:43:41.960
purposing or social purposing. And that is the idea that

727
00:43:42.719 --> 00:43:44.400
whatever we're doing during the course of the day, we

728
00:43:44.440 --> 00:43:47.159
can always find some way to lift and help somebody

729
00:43:47.199 --> 00:43:49.400
else in a way. It gives us that sense of

730
00:43:49.440 --> 00:43:51.519
purpose that we are doing something above and beyond and

731
00:43:51.559 --> 00:43:54.239
we are helping other people. Really quick example of that

732
00:43:54.360 --> 00:43:57.360
is she talks about a man who does he parks

733
00:43:57.400 --> 00:43:59.920
cars for a living. He's a parking attendant in a garage,

734
00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:03.280
and while the people are away, after they've given him

735
00:44:03.320 --> 00:44:05.239
the keys to their cars, he goes on and measures

736
00:44:05.239 --> 00:44:08.079
the trend on o their tires and he reports back

737
00:44:08.079 --> 00:44:10.280
to the owners when they come back if they're low.

738
00:44:10.960 --> 00:44:13.360
And he has of course saved many people from blowing

739
00:44:13.400 --> 00:44:15.519
a tire on a freeway. And that's his way of

740
00:44:15.599 --> 00:44:18.079
just sneaking a little bit of purpose for him. So

741
00:44:18.159 --> 00:44:20.440
what I love about that is no matter what we're doing,

742
00:44:20.440 --> 00:44:22.280
we can always find a way to seek in a

743
00:44:22.280 --> 00:44:23.880
little bit of that good purpose stuff.

744
00:44:25.960 --> 00:44:29.159
I love that story. And you know, we've been talking

745
00:44:29.199 --> 00:44:34.920
about thinking about loving our work, and one thing that

746
00:44:34.960 --> 00:44:37.800
we often say is a takeaway from this book is

747
00:44:37.840 --> 00:44:42.239
that we should be thinking more not just about what

748
00:44:42.360 --> 00:44:46.119
makes us love our work, but what is worth loving

749
00:44:46.519 --> 00:44:50.000
about our work. And that's an example of what makes

750
00:44:50.559 --> 00:44:53.440
maybe modest work lovable.

751
00:44:55.119 --> 00:44:58.840
M I had a whole question for that, actually, if

752
00:44:58.840 --> 00:45:01.800
you wanted to take that a little bit further, what

753
00:45:01.920 --> 00:45:05.960
would make your life worth living in a world without work?

754
00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:08.239
And so I don't know which one do you want

755
00:45:08.239 --> 00:45:09.800
to take that, but but I mean, for me, let

756
00:45:09.800 --> 00:45:11.400
me back up and say that I was raised by

757
00:45:11.400 --> 00:45:14.320
farmers and restaurant tours, and work was a way of life.

758
00:45:14.840 --> 00:45:17.960
It was an expression of being alive. It was a

759
00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:22.199
noble thing. So to me, you know, every work is

760
00:45:22.440 --> 00:45:25.719
is worth it. But let me let you.

761
00:45:25.679 --> 00:45:35.599
Comment, well, I think that we don't give enough respect

762
00:45:35.840 --> 00:45:41.480
to just the fundamental dignity of doing work that is useful,

763
00:45:41.920 --> 00:45:46.400
and farming is a great example of that. You know,

764
00:45:46.440 --> 00:45:51.199
we started, as I mentioned before, our research examining the

765
00:45:51.280 --> 00:45:53.599
role of work in the lives of nine to eleven victims.

766
00:45:54.360 --> 00:46:00.960
And when Jen talks about this typology job career calling,

767
00:46:01.599 --> 00:46:05.239
one thing that we did was draw on that typology

768
00:46:05.280 --> 00:46:09.559
in order to understand the stories of the victims that

769
00:46:09.599 --> 00:46:13.039
we were reading about, and we discovered not only was

770
00:46:13.119 --> 00:46:16.599
that framework useful for understanding the role of work in

771
00:46:16.639 --> 00:46:20.320
their lives, but we also, in the course of examining it,

772
00:46:20.440 --> 00:46:24.079
wanted to challenge that very framework that we were using.

773
00:46:24.840 --> 00:46:29.079
So when I think of work, that's a job. We

774
00:46:29.079 --> 00:46:33.519
were looking at victims often who were among the wealthiest

775
00:46:33.599 --> 00:46:37.880
people on Wall Street. A job could be seeking to

776
00:46:38.000 --> 00:46:42.840
be the biggest, baddest trader on Wall Street. But we

777
00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:46.719
also read stories about people who were restaurant workers who

778
00:46:46.719 --> 00:46:51.440
were delivering food to those traders and doing so so

779
00:46:51.480 --> 00:46:55.880
that they could support a family. And in that sense,

780
00:46:56.480 --> 00:46:59.599
we discovered that not all jobs, even though they are

781
00:46:59.639 --> 00:47:05.760
all means to material ends, are created equal, and we

782
00:47:05.840 --> 00:47:14.119
should appreciate more that sense of dignity and love that's

783
00:47:14.159 --> 00:47:18.119
involved in the simple work of supporting a family, which

784
00:47:18.480 --> 00:47:21.800
might be the most fundamental of all reasons why people work.

785
00:47:23.920 --> 00:47:25.679
You know, there's so much more we could talk about.

786
00:47:25.679 --> 00:47:28.480
Your book is so thorough and robust, and I saw

787
00:47:28.519 --> 00:47:30.840
that you have another book coming out twenty five, so

788
00:47:30.840 --> 00:47:32.119
we'll just have to have you back on and talk

789
00:47:32.159 --> 00:47:34.559
more anyway, But let me give each of you a

790
00:47:34.679 --> 00:47:37.119
chance to close the conversation. It shows listenered by people

791
00:47:37.159 --> 00:47:40.960
around the world who are interested in becoming better leaders themselves,

792
00:47:40.960 --> 00:47:44.000
who are looking to help create cultures where people actually

793
00:47:44.039 --> 00:47:45.760
want to come to work and do their best. We

794
00:47:45.960 --> 00:47:48.599
give you each a chance to close with something, say

795
00:47:48.599 --> 00:47:49.760
about twenty seconds each.

796
00:47:50.440 --> 00:47:54.719
Yeah, well, I really would love your listeners to think

797
00:47:54.760 --> 00:48:00.480
about not only why they personally work, but why each

798
00:48:00.639 --> 00:48:04.960
of your employees come to work. What is their why?

799
00:48:05.119 --> 00:48:08.519
And is the organization meeting their why?

800
00:48:11.239 --> 00:48:13.840
And I'd like to encourage your listeners to think about

801
00:48:13.920 --> 00:48:18.119
how they would explain their work to a seven year old,

802
00:48:18.400 --> 00:48:22.199
because if you have trouble explaining the value of your

803
00:48:22.239 --> 00:48:24.880
work to a seven year old, then it might be

804
00:48:24.960 --> 00:48:27.719
time to sort of rethink why is it worth doing.

805
00:48:29.360 --> 00:48:32.159
Wow, what a powerful way to finish. Jan and Christopher.

806
00:48:32.199 --> 00:48:34.000
I'm so happy to know both of you. I've learned

807
00:48:34.039 --> 00:48:35.880
a lot from you. I do look forward to having

808
00:48:35.920 --> 00:48:39.039
you back on the show. If you'll come back, listeners,

809
00:48:39.280 --> 00:48:40.800
that's a good that's what she's saying. Yes, so lid,

810
00:48:40.920 --> 00:48:41.519
she would love it.

811
00:48:41.760 --> 00:48:42.760
We're honored at last.

812
00:48:42.800 --> 00:48:45.519
Thank you all the witnesses here. Maybe okay, so listeners

813
00:48:45.519 --> 00:48:47.039
and viewers who were going to want to learn more

814
00:48:47.039 --> 00:48:49.039
about both of these beautiful humans and the work that

815
00:48:49.079 --> 00:48:51.159
they're doing, and the best way to do that is

816
00:48:51.199 --> 00:48:54.679
really to go to Christopher Wongmichaelson dot com. I will

817
00:48:54.719 --> 00:48:58.440
spell that out for you, so it's Christopher standard spelling

818
00:48:58.920 --> 00:49:03.599
Wong WNG Michaelson, E M I C H A E

819
00:49:03.800 --> 00:49:06.880
L s O N Christopher Wangmichaelson dot com. Go check

820
00:49:06.920 --> 00:49:08.480
them out. You can find more about the book and

821
00:49:08.519 --> 00:49:11.079
some of their work as well. You can also find

822
00:49:11.119 --> 00:49:12.679
the ways to be able to connect with them that

823
00:49:12.679 --> 00:49:15.440
way too. Last week, you've missed the Life Show, you

824
00:49:15.480 --> 00:49:17.920
can always catch it be a recorded podcast or where

825
00:49:17.920 --> 00:49:20.599
you get your podcasts. We're on with Matt Schenker, the

826
00:49:20.639 --> 00:49:24.000
founder of Matter More. We talked about his creation of

827
00:49:24.039 --> 00:49:29.880
the Empowered Wellbeing Theory, a transdisciplinary bio psychosocial spiritual model

828
00:49:30.119 --> 00:49:32.880
for understanding human wellbeing and their work they are doing

829
00:49:32.920 --> 00:49:35.320
to harness the best of AI and behavior science to

830
00:49:35.400 --> 00:49:38.079
empower the future of work. And what they call work

831
00:49:38.159 --> 00:49:41.000
four point zero. Next week will be on with Shock D.

832
00:49:41.119 --> 00:49:45.400
Dudley and Alan Prusham talking about their joint venture championing

833
00:49:45.440 --> 00:49:50.199
inspirational and spiritual leadership among executives. See you there and

834
00:49:50.239 --> 00:49:53.239
for another inspiring and educational conversation on working on purpose

835
00:49:53.480 --> 00:49:55.599
and remember work is one of the best adventures and

836
00:49:55.679 --> 00:49:58.159
means of realizing our potential and making the impact we crave.

837
00:49:58.519 --> 00:49:59.840
So let's work on Purpose.

838
00:50:02.800 --> 00:50:05.440
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to

839
00:50:05.480 --> 00:50:09.159
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes,

840
00:50:09.239 --> 00:50:12.559
each week on W four CY. Together we'll create a

841
00:50:12.599 --> 00:50:17.199
world where business operates conscientiously, leadership inspires and passion performance,

842
00:50:17.320 --> 00:50:20.079
and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning

843
00:50:20.119 --> 00:50:23.920
and purpose they crave. See you there, Let's Work on Purpose.