Individuating: Its Path Through Meaning to Actualization

WEBVTT

1
00:00:05.000 --> 00:00:09.240
What's working on purpose anyway? Each
week we ponder the answer to this question.

2
00:00:09.800 --> 00:00:14.919
People ache for meaning and purpose at
work to contribute their talents passionately and

3
00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:20.039
know their lives really matter. They
crave being part of an organization that inspires

4
00:00:20.079 --> 00:00:24.920
them and helps them grow into realizing
their highest potential. Business can be such

5
00:00:24.920 --> 00:00:29.320
a force for good in the world, elevating humanity. In our program,

6
00:00:29.359 --> 00:00:34.399
we provide guidance and inspiration to help
usher in this world we all want working

7
00:00:34.479 --> 00:00:39.880
on purpose. Now here is your
host, Doctor Elise Cortez. Hey there,

8
00:00:39.920 --> 00:00:42.920
everybody, Welcome back to Working on
Purpose on Doctor Elis Cortez jouring.

9
00:00:42.960 --> 00:00:46.679
You live from Dallas where it's hot
here in the middle of summer, and

10
00:00:46.880 --> 00:00:50.479
I welcome you back for another Thought
for Booking conversation. As you know,

11
00:00:50.600 --> 00:00:54.719
this show is really designed to be
a thought leadership series that elevates inspires you

12
00:00:55.200 --> 00:00:59.359
with subject matter experts and authors and
business leaders from across the globe. Today

13
00:00:59.439 --> 00:01:02.560
with us we have Danny Gutneck,
who is the CEO of a company called

14
00:01:02.560 --> 00:01:06.680
Pathways, and he is the author
of this book which is called Meaning at

15
00:01:06.760 --> 00:01:10.599
Work and Its Hidden Language. We'll
be talking about what some of the contents

16
00:01:10.599 --> 00:01:14.040
in this book, how they map
over to both of our respective worlds around

17
00:01:14.079 --> 00:01:17.920
culture, meaning and leadership, and
learn about how it is he got into

18
00:01:18.040 --> 00:01:22.519
this inquiry here. I will want
you to know that I actually stalked this

19
00:01:22.599 --> 00:01:26.120
man for you. I brought him
here because I found him on LinkedIn and

20
00:01:26.159 --> 00:01:27.319
when I saw what he was doing, I reached out to me and I

21
00:01:27.359 --> 00:01:30.719
said, You've got to come on
my show and he said yes. So,

22
00:01:30.799 --> 00:01:34.000
Danny, welcome to Working on Purpose. Thanks Alice. Happy to be

23
00:01:34.040 --> 00:01:37.359
here. It's so great to have
you. And as you know, I'm

24
00:01:37.359 --> 00:01:40.480
prone to do because I am very
much not even a closet geek. I'm

25
00:01:40.519 --> 00:01:44.760
just a geek period. I read
your beautiful book cover to cover. Listeners,

26
00:01:44.760 --> 00:01:47.480
if you haven't picked this thing up, it is a fantastic read.

27
00:01:47.519 --> 00:01:49.319
It's just they're going to be smarter
by the time you finish the first chapter.

28
00:01:49.799 --> 00:01:53.200
So what I'm gonna be doing as
we talk here, Danny, is

29
00:01:53.239 --> 00:01:56.760
I've prepared various notes that I want
to make sure in reference, so even

30
00:01:56.799 --> 00:01:59.079
though we're on video, I want
to be able to reference them. So

31
00:01:59.519 --> 00:02:01.680
let's rock poll. You're ready.
Sounds good, Let's go all right.

32
00:02:01.760 --> 00:02:07.000
So the first thing is if you
would, you have a very fascinating and

33
00:02:07.079 --> 00:02:08.960
expansive life and career. And I
think it would be useful for our listeners

34
00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:13.360
and viewers to hear the path of
really how it is that you came to

35
00:02:13.400 --> 00:02:15.759
study meaning and why it's so important
to you, you know, I mean

36
00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:20.400
I didn't actually know initially that I
was studying meaning. I think that that's

37
00:02:20.439 --> 00:02:23.520
pretty much a path that a lot
of people take in life, is you

38
00:02:23.520 --> 00:02:27.360
don't know what you're onto until you're
onto it. But I but I grew

39
00:02:27.400 --> 00:02:30.719
up, I grew up in the
Midwest, a very traditional set of values,

40
00:02:31.199 --> 00:02:35.439
and I didn't like the answers that
I got, and they just they

41
00:02:35.479 --> 00:02:39.120
just weren't satisfactory to me. And
so I had this question a little bit

42
00:02:39.159 --> 00:02:45.159
about what's life about? And then
I had another interest, which was entrepreneurship.

43
00:02:45.360 --> 00:02:47.520
I was just a natural entrepreneur.
I'd I'd go hustle, sell tug

44
00:02:47.599 --> 00:02:51.759
seedo fish to the pet store,
and you know, things like that.

45
00:02:51.879 --> 00:02:58.360
And then and then the other piece
was music, you know, and I

46
00:02:58.479 --> 00:03:02.800
really leaned towards music that had compelling
messages in it that made me stop and

47
00:03:02.840 --> 00:03:07.520
think. And that was really the
start of it. And So what happened

48
00:03:07.639 --> 00:03:12.039
was, over time, I just
kept feeding these interests. I went out

49
00:03:12.080 --> 00:03:14.919
into the world like everybody else does
and says, Okay, I think I've

50
00:03:14.919 --> 00:03:15.759
got to go get a job.
I think I've got to go pay the

51
00:03:15.800 --> 00:03:20.719
bills, and you know, I'll
go on that journey. But I noticed

52
00:03:21.039 --> 00:03:23.800
that at the time, I thought, well, these these are never really

53
00:03:23.800 --> 00:03:28.479
going to match up. And I
had read this book called Frogs into Princes,

54
00:03:28.800 --> 00:03:31.039
and it was it was kind of
the start of the NLP revolution.

55
00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:36.759
And while I'm not a huge fan
of NLP, some of the things that

56
00:03:36.800 --> 00:03:42.280
really jumped out to me were they
talked about models, therapeutic models first,

57
00:03:42.560 --> 00:03:46.199
and I thought, oh, therapeutic
models. And so they also said we

58
00:03:46.280 --> 00:03:51.520
make models to understand the world around
us, and that really resonated with me.

59
00:03:51.639 --> 00:03:53.759
And so what I started to learn
about models. I dove in a

60
00:03:53.759 --> 00:03:55.879
little bit about models, and I
learned, well, you know what,

61
00:03:57.039 --> 00:04:00.039
I think it might be interesting for
me if instead of kind of searching for

62
00:04:00.039 --> 00:04:03.879
the truth of life, what's useful
in these models. So I went on

63
00:04:03.919 --> 00:04:09.280
a journey of really kind of exploring
models. And it turns out that like

64
00:04:09.360 --> 00:04:13.599
a song is a model, it's
a meaning model, Right, somebody's somebody's

65
00:04:13.599 --> 00:04:16.720
purporting or giving you some sort of
sense of meaning about how they're interpreting the

66
00:04:16.759 --> 00:04:19.959
song and the vibe and the way
that they feel about it and the way

67
00:04:19.959 --> 00:04:23.920
that they feel at the moment,
and they're understanding of themselves in the world

68
00:04:23.959 --> 00:04:27.560
about them, and so it's it's
it's that that form of art and so

69
00:04:27.600 --> 00:04:30.079
that, you know, then the
music started to tie in a little bit

70
00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:33.560
to that. And it took a
long time until I got into recruiting,

71
00:04:34.079 --> 00:04:40.199
until I really understood that maybe maybe
this path of what's what's the world about?

72
00:04:40.680 --> 00:04:46.079
And work? We spend fifty seven
point five percent of our adult lives

73
00:04:46.079 --> 00:04:50.040
working. Yeah, So then I
started thinking, well, if you're there

74
00:04:50.079 --> 00:04:56.079
most of the time, it makes
sense that maybe this whole idea of being

75
00:04:56.120 --> 00:05:00.600
the best version of yourself should and
could start there. So that's that's how

76
00:05:00.600 --> 00:05:02.839
I stumbled onto it. And then
and then over the years of working at

77
00:05:02.839 --> 00:05:08.759
recruiting, you know, I started
to redvise the interview because in recruiting,

78
00:05:08.759 --> 00:05:13.120
I just I would get frustrated.
I had about forty recruit recruiters working for

79
00:05:13.120 --> 00:05:15.639
me at once, and I would
get incredibly frustrated with the fact that I'd

80
00:05:15.680 --> 00:05:19.839
ask them about a candidate that was
applying for a job and they'd I'd be

81
00:05:19.879 --> 00:05:23.360
like, no, no, no, those are your motives that they can't

82
00:05:23.360 --> 00:05:27.360
possibly be the candidates. So so
I started to tinker with the interview,

83
00:05:27.519 --> 00:05:30.680
and once we tinkered with the interview, it blossomed. It just opened up

84
00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:35.519
into this whoe like look at how
all these motives work. And so initially

85
00:05:35.600 --> 00:05:41.600
I thought I was onto this language
of moded motive versus the language of business.

86
00:05:42.160 --> 00:05:46.360
And then I'm at a model maker. So, mister model user that

87
00:05:46.439 --> 00:05:49.560
was out in the world making,
you know, using all these models and

88
00:05:49.600 --> 00:05:54.800
trying to see what works and what
was useful. I meet this model user

89
00:05:54.920 --> 00:05:58.360
and or maker, and the model
maker his name was the Joy Gaswami out

90
00:05:58.360 --> 00:06:03.000
of Boston, Texas, went to
Stanford became a real important collaborator for me

91
00:06:03.240 --> 00:06:11.720
in the sense that we started to
have this dialogue about human existence and models

92
00:06:11.759 --> 00:06:14.519
and how this works. And it
was like, oh lo and behold,

93
00:06:15.000 --> 00:06:20.120
we all have models for the different
contexts of life that we partake in or

94
00:06:20.160 --> 00:06:24.560
we engage in. And so I
have a model for I have a relationship

95
00:06:24.560 --> 00:06:27.600
with the cosmos. You know,
some might call it a spiritual journey.

96
00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:31.680
And then that's a model, right, that's how I understand and wake up

97
00:06:31.680 --> 00:06:35.800
in the world. And so I've
got a model for walking down the street.

98
00:06:35.839 --> 00:06:40.079
And oh, by the way,
I've spent spent ten years now looking

99
00:06:40.079 --> 00:06:44.720
at GUSH people that have that are
on a work journey. They have a

100
00:06:44.759 --> 00:06:48.360
model for that. And and what
is that model? Well, it's how

101
00:06:48.439 --> 00:06:53.720
we It's our meaning. It's not
just something that we say about ourselves.

102
00:06:53.800 --> 00:06:56.959
It's something that we're willing to wake
up and do and what we care enough

103
00:06:57.000 --> 00:07:00.519
about in life to actually go do
it. So that's why, that's how

104
00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:02.319
I stumbled into it. I got
to comment on a couple of things Danny

105
00:07:02.439 --> 00:07:05.279
and for our listeners, so that
I like to be able to teach back

106
00:07:05.319 --> 00:07:08.199
some of the things I hear for
our listeners. First, for those of

107
00:07:08.240 --> 00:07:11.680
you who don't know what NLP is, it stands for neuro linguistic programming,

108
00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:14.399
So if you don't know what that
is, that's what he was referring to.

109
00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:16.360
Second, what I want to emphasize
that Danny just shared with us is

110
00:07:16.639 --> 00:07:20.120
the importance of really leaning in when
something calls your attention, to lean into

111
00:07:20.120 --> 00:07:23.399
it, to pay attention to it's
trying to tell you something, go with

112
00:07:23.439 --> 00:07:26.199
it. Put some energy into that. By the way, that's called passion.

113
00:07:26.240 --> 00:07:28.839
And when you give something of yourself, it's called passion. So I

114
00:07:28.920 --> 00:07:30.600
want to want to applaud that you
did that, Danny, and then he'll

115
00:07:30.639 --> 00:07:34.319
make sure our listeners heard that for
themselves. And three, what you said

116
00:07:34.319 --> 00:07:38.399
about that everything is a model?
How interesting is that? Because one of

117
00:07:38.439 --> 00:07:41.160
the things I wanted you to do
is to find meaning for us as you

118
00:07:41.199 --> 00:07:44.959
define it. So how do you
define define meaning? It's it's the models

119
00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:48.120
by which a being parses its existence. So words better than I thought you

120
00:07:48.120 --> 00:07:53.639
were going to say. So in
other words, you know, how do

121
00:07:53.680 --> 00:07:56.360
we wake up? When we wake
up, how do we interpret the world?

122
00:07:56.360 --> 00:08:00.360
How do we show up? And
it turns out meaning model, the

123
00:08:00.399 --> 00:08:03.800
models by which we parse our existence
are pretty complex. You know. They've

124
00:08:03.839 --> 00:08:07.040
got images, they've got feelings,
and actually they have a narrative, So

125
00:08:07.519 --> 00:08:11.800
they have snippets of things that we
tell ourselves about certain situations or certain people

126
00:08:13.519 --> 00:08:18.279
or ourselves, and the narratives by
which we understand the world around us.

127
00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:22.079
Well, so guess what you know. I'm due to send my book that's

128
00:08:22.079 --> 00:08:24.319
coming out later this year to my
publisher this this week for its third go

129
00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:26.800
round, and I have a chapter
on meaning. I'm going to have to

130
00:08:26.839 --> 00:08:31.319
quote you on that. That is
one of the most fresh ways I've ever

131
00:08:31.319 --> 00:08:35.840
heard anybody described meaning that I've ever
heard in thank you gorgeous. All right,

132
00:08:35.879 --> 00:08:37.840
so this is now we're going to
get really to the meat. So

133
00:08:37.919 --> 00:08:39.720
listeners and viewers, what we're going
to get into here is really we're going

134
00:08:39.759 --> 00:08:43.600
to open the hood here and talk
about some of the really cool concepts that

135
00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:46.480
Danny has presence in his books.
So I'm going to refer to my notes

136
00:08:46.519 --> 00:08:48.720
here. So Danny, at one
point in your book you write, and

137
00:08:48.759 --> 00:08:52.840
I quote meani isn't just an abstract
idea, it actually makes us healthier.

138
00:08:54.159 --> 00:08:56.559
And then you distinguish that happiness we
get from following a path we believe to

139
00:08:56.600 --> 00:09:01.799
be meaningful. It's known as ammonic
when we say that happiness, but happiness

140
00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:07.080
from seeking rewards or pleasure is called
hedonic happiness. Fascinating to me that you

141
00:09:07.080 --> 00:09:11.559
would distinguish those two in a book
about meaning. Why well, So the

142
00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:16.919
UCLA and those are terms used by
UCLA and by North Carolina who's studied happiness

143
00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:24.960
and I actually think that they've misqualified
udonic because I don't think udonic is happiness.

144
00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:30.480
I think it's that sense of care
that you have that you put into

145
00:09:30.480 --> 00:09:33.840
things. And so people that pursue
hedonic happiness So in other words, what

146
00:09:33.879 --> 00:09:37.919
can I do this next moment to
be happy? And I think I think

147
00:09:37.960 --> 00:09:39.960
our culture is rife with that right
now, which is, what's the next

148
00:09:41.000 --> 00:09:43.639
pill I can take? What's the
next you know, dopamine, jo jolt

149
00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:46.679
that I can get out of a
tweet or whatever that is, right?

150
00:09:46.759 --> 00:09:52.159
And so the udonic is actually that
thing of you know, if you have

151
00:09:52.240 --> 00:09:54.879
kids, it's waking up in the
middle of the night to feed them,

152
00:09:54.919 --> 00:09:58.559
and there's something that might be uncomfortable
about that, but there's also something or

153
00:09:58.600 --> 00:10:01.200
frustrating. But there's also some thing
that, in terms of a sense of

154
00:10:01.240 --> 00:10:03.840
care, you get a fulfillment out
of. And that also happens at work,

155
00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:11.440
right and so a lot of people
struggle with finding that udonic drive for

156
00:10:11.480 --> 00:10:16.480
work, which is which is actually
what meaning you're touching on meaning now?

157
00:10:16.840 --> 00:10:22.080
And so there's a biological there's a
biological phenomenon that happens to you when you

158
00:10:22.120 --> 00:10:28.080
actually start to steward your own system
of meaning. Okay, now you're you're

159
00:10:28.080 --> 00:10:30.600
stepping into some territory. They want
to make sure our listeners get as well.

160
00:10:30.720 --> 00:10:33.559
You're talking, you're using the word
fulfillment, and you know this because

161
00:10:33.679 --> 00:10:35.879
we are in the same space as
me. But I've bet a lot of

162
00:10:35.879 --> 00:10:41.559
our listeners don't know this that today
we're focused on helping people to discover and

163
00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:46.960
discern fulfillment in their work, Whereas
in the past we used to talk about

164
00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:50.240
employee engagement. That's still out there, but now really the more forward thinking

165
00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:54.200
term is fulfillment. And so you're
presencing that with what you're just saying.

166
00:10:54.559 --> 00:10:56.480
And that gets me to the next
thing I want to talk about, which

167
00:10:56.480 --> 00:11:01.279
I think is just so crisp and
so amazing. You say that quote when

168
00:11:01.399 --> 00:11:05.639
when the way we're living doesn't align
with what we can we consider important,

169
00:11:05.720 --> 00:11:09.240
it conflicts with our sense of self, That's what happens with disengagement. Would

170
00:11:09.240 --> 00:11:11.879
you see a little bit more about
that? And I'm going to give an

171
00:11:11.879 --> 00:11:13.519
illustration from my own life as well. Yeah, I think I'm going to

172
00:11:13.600 --> 00:11:18.559
circle circle. I'll circle back around
to this set of so picture this.

173
00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:22.279
Okay, let's say that the model. Have you ever seen inside the movie

174
00:11:22.279 --> 00:11:28.919
inside Out that it's an animated show
for children. Okay, so they basically

175
00:11:28.919 --> 00:11:33.039
have life experiences built into contexts which
are like a little orb And so if

176
00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:37.600
you think about that orb is maybe
a magnetized ball. And so think about

177
00:11:37.600 --> 00:11:41.320
that in terms of your meaning model
if you can make that mental connection.

178
00:11:41.840 --> 00:11:45.759
And so if you just start to
think that we have all of these meaning

179
00:11:45.799 --> 00:11:48.320
models for a lot of different contexts
in our life, and all of those

180
00:11:48.360 --> 00:11:52.799
meaning models make up ourselves. And
so what happens is is that if if

181
00:11:52.840 --> 00:11:58.000
your model's outsourced to an authority based
construct. So in other words, if

182
00:11:58.080 --> 00:12:01.720
you if you've got this idea of
leadership that somebody else defined and it's not

183
00:12:01.840 --> 00:12:07.159
your idea of leadership, you're constantly
trying to live up into that model that

184
00:12:07.320 --> 00:12:11.120
isn't actually yours, your authentic model. And so what happens is these these

185
00:12:11.159 --> 00:12:13.159
little polarities. So for example,
I might be going, oh, I

186
00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:16.320
need to early in life, I
need to go get the money, right,

187
00:12:16.360 --> 00:12:18.879
I gotta go do things and make
the money. Oh no, no,

188
00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:20.679
that's not it. I want to
go do it for the love,

189
00:12:22.360 --> 00:12:24.559
right, And so then then you're
in this duality and it's polarized. So

190
00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:26.799
you start doing it for love and
then you're like, oh, maybe the

191
00:12:26.799 --> 00:12:31.200
money thing wasn't so bad, right, And you haven't you haven't actually resolved

192
00:12:31.200 --> 00:12:35.559
that duality within yourself. So when
I'm talking about a polarity, So if

193
00:12:35.600 --> 00:12:39.679
you think about disconnection, what happens
is is that you've got if you haven't

194
00:12:39.720 --> 00:12:45.799
attended to your meaning or your kind
of what you're doing in life and kind

195
00:12:45.840 --> 00:12:48.840
of made your models conscious. Carl
Young has a great quote. He says,

196
00:12:48.879 --> 00:12:52.360
if you don't make the unconscious conscious
and well rule your life is fate.

197
00:12:52.759 --> 00:12:54.720
So you think that you're responding to
things, but but the issue is

198
00:12:54.720 --> 00:13:00.440
is that you actually have these issues
with polarity and conflicts internally that you haven't

199
00:13:00.559 --> 00:13:03.639
kind of pulled out into separate containers
and examine them and decided, you know,

200
00:13:03.720 --> 00:13:07.440
does that work for me and what
resonates with me and what doesn't and

201
00:13:09.200 --> 00:13:13.200
started to curate and steward your meaning
that way. I got so much insight

202
00:13:13.399 --> 00:13:16.000
into that into my own life,
Danny when you said that I've known this

203
00:13:16.039 --> 00:13:20.440
before, but you gave me another
way, another model through which to understand

204
00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:22.559
it with what you just offered there
and I'll share it with the listeners and

205
00:13:22.600 --> 00:13:26.679
the viewers, and that is that
there was a period of time in about

206
00:13:26.759 --> 00:13:31.360
i'd say two thousand late now,
I'd say most of twenty fifteen where I

207
00:13:31.399 --> 00:13:33.480
had come to a place in my
life where I'd done my second round of

208
00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:37.159
meaning and work research, I was
publishing, I was speaking on the topic,

209
00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:39.000
and I knew I wanted to do
so much more with it, and

210
00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:43.879
I sort of put myself in this
container box. I was married at the

211
00:13:43.879 --> 00:13:46.320
time, and I felt like if
I just didn't think I was, I

212
00:13:46.360 --> 00:13:50.840
could go pursue those things. And
I hated myself for not pursuing those things

213
00:13:50.840 --> 00:13:52.840
and the life that came with it. And I knew that I wasn't litting

214
00:13:52.879 --> 00:13:56.879
to my potential and giving of myself
what I wanted to give to the world,

215
00:13:56.919 --> 00:14:01.440
and it was miserable. So definitely
my view myself did not fit with

216
00:14:01.480 --> 00:14:05.279
what I was doing. And it
wasn't until I went through my divorce process

217
00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:09.399
that the clearing came and I got
a chance to step back into that zone

218
00:14:09.440 --> 00:14:11.240
and claim it. And I'm not
telling listeners of yours, please don't hear

219
00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:15.440
me that I'm saying that you can't
claim meaning until you get divorced. That's

220
00:14:15.480 --> 00:14:18.879
not what I'm saying. I'm saying
that for me, I could only access

221
00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:22.120
it until the paradigm changed in my
life. I had to find a way

222
00:14:22.120 --> 00:14:24.960
to get clarity, I'm guessing,
and I get your own clarity on things

223
00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:28.000
I did. I really did.
And so I found so much of your

224
00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:31.559
book so helpful to be able to
explain, Oh, that's why that happened,

225
00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:35.360
that's why I did that, That's
why I made that choice. Incredibly

226
00:14:35.399 --> 00:14:39.159
insightful with Danny. So so when
you did that, you actually started to

227
00:14:39.159 --> 00:14:41.879
go, oh wow, I like, I'm actually seeing what I'm what I'm

228
00:14:41.879 --> 00:14:43.480
here to do? What I Yeah, And then I was, And then

229
00:14:43.639 --> 00:14:46.919
I knew what I was here to
do. And because I wasn't doing it,

230
00:14:48.039 --> 00:14:50.759
I wasn't a being it. If
well, I hated myself for it.

231
00:14:50.799 --> 00:14:52.759
So yes, when I stepped out
of my own I was like,

232
00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:56.519
I've got no more excuses. Now
I'm going for it. And I did

233
00:14:56.559 --> 00:14:58.679
go for it. So I've got
so many things happening right now that I'm

234
00:14:58.679 --> 00:15:03.440
doing to to express my purpose and
it is amazing. So with that,

235
00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:05.320
let us take our first break,
shall we. I'm a lease Cortez our

236
00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:09.639
host. We're on there with Danny
Gutnak. He is the author of Meaning

237
00:15:09.639 --> 00:15:13.000
at Work and It's Hidden Hiddling,
which he's also the CEO of Pathways.

238
00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:15.879
We've been talking a bit about how
it is he got into this space,

239
00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:18.559
how did he find meaning and do
something about it. After the break,

240
00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:22.120
we're going to talk more about how
we can use it at work and also

241
00:15:22.159 --> 00:15:24.840
on ourselves. Say with us,
We'll do right back. Doctor Release Cortez

242
00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:31.559
is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose and inspirational speaker and author.

243
00:15:31.879 --> 00:15:37.440
She helps companies visioneer for greater purpose
among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired leadership and

244
00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:43.679
meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment,
performance, and commitment within the workforce.

245
00:15:45.279 --> 00:15:48.279
To learn more or to invite a
lease to speak to your organization, please

246
00:15:48.360 --> 00:15:52.000
visit her at a Lease Cortez dot
com. Let's talk about how to get

247
00:15:52.039 --> 00:16:03.799
your employees working on purpose. This
is working on Purpose with doctor Elise Cortez.

248
00:16:03.360 --> 00:16:07.279
To reach our program today or open
a conversation with Elise, send an

249
00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:15.720
email to Elise ali Se at Elise
Cortez dot com. Now back to working

250
00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:18.679
on purpose. Thanks for staying what's
something welcome back to working on purpose if

251
00:16:18.679 --> 00:16:22.320
you're just tuning in. My guest
is Danny Gutnek. He is the author

252
00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:26.039
of this book Meaning at Work and
It's Hidden Language. He's also the CEO

253
00:16:26.200 --> 00:16:29.200
Pathways, and we've been talking a
bit about how we got into the space

254
00:16:29.240 --> 00:16:33.240
of what lured him into the meaning
world like it has me. We want

255
00:16:33.279 --> 00:16:36.240
to continue the conversation and there's a
couple of specific things I want to call

256
00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:37.799
out in your book, Danny,
to keep us really close to the reading

257
00:16:37.840 --> 00:16:41.720
based or so much great material here. So you say, you're right,

258
00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:45.200
and I'm going to quote this just
as it isn't ask you to comment on

259
00:16:45.240 --> 00:16:48.960
it. So you say, the
need to actualize is becoming a cultural phenomenon.

260
00:16:48.279 --> 00:16:52.759
Throughout history, there have been those
who moved away from institutions and struggle

261
00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:56.320
to assume responsibility for their own meaning, tap the essence of who they are.

262
00:16:56.720 --> 00:17:00.399
They have used philosophy, psychiatry,
psycho psychology, and meditation. One

263
00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:03.480
by one, people are slipping off
the chains, turning away from the cave

264
00:17:03.559 --> 00:17:07.519
wall, and crawling out into the
sunlight to realize their true potentials for the

265
00:17:07.519 --> 00:17:11.920
first time. Why is this happening? What's causing what's under this phenomenon.

266
00:17:12.319 --> 00:17:18.640
So a couple of things are driving
it. One, we've we've gotten to

267
00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:25.160
a point in particularly in roughly twenty
countries, where we've gotten so much scientific

268
00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:29.960
progress that the returns are much smaller. We're not seeing these big boons and

269
00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:33.240
say, science, we've gotten all
about all the rights. Where the freest

270
00:17:33.319 --> 00:17:37.839
people that have ever lived in the
history of the planet. Right, there's

271
00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:40.839
still issues with it, but but
you know, we're the freest people that

272
00:17:41.079 --> 00:17:45.400
have ever lived. Three, we
have more stuff. We're flourishing at a

273
00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:51.039
level that's insane compared to you know, one hundred years ago when people used

274
00:17:51.039 --> 00:17:52.720
to make their own underwear and have
to wear them every day, and you

275
00:17:52.759 --> 00:17:56.960
know, and so it's it's uh
and so so we don't have some of

276
00:17:57.000 --> 00:18:02.599
those immediate issues on hand. And
there's no put in the genie back in

277
00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:06.119
the bottle either. And so what's
happening is is that people are starting to

278
00:18:06.119 --> 00:18:10.559
ask themselves more fundamental questions. And
and then you get the rise of the

279
00:18:10.599 --> 00:18:14.480
Internet twenty years ago. And now
what we're doing is we're getting a flood

280
00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:21.400
of back to the model thing of
gurus and people offering advice and suggestions,

281
00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:25.559
and we're seeing that the world can
wake up and you can actually express yourself

282
00:18:25.640 --> 00:18:27.160
in a lot of different ways that
resonate more with us. And so I

283
00:18:27.200 --> 00:18:33.960
think that level of freedoms and that
level of human flourishing that that that's existed

284
00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:41.079
are working in concert to confront this
major problem, which is, oh,

285
00:18:41.119 --> 00:18:44.599
the American dream might not mean what
the American dream meant, you know,

286
00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:48.440
to where we all collectively have to
agree on what an American dream is.

287
00:18:48.759 --> 00:18:52.799
Now it's your American dream, you
know. I think I think you know

288
00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:56.920
a little bit back to Young one
of the things that he mentioned in one

289
00:18:56.920 --> 00:19:02.599
of his books was scientific industrial political
man and suffers from the shift of really

290
00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:07.119
of meaning from the institution to the
individual. And so this is this is

291
00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:10.359
going to be a long journey for
people. I don't think that this is

292
00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:14.160
a fast fad. It's it's going
to be a journey that I think people

293
00:19:14.200 --> 00:19:17.400
are going to take. It's going
to take maybe hundreds of years for people

294
00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:22.759
to figure out what self actualization and
individuation are and how they can do it

295
00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:26.599
for themselves. And to that,
and that's the next question I wanted to

296
00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:30.440
ask you, Danny, I don't
think I've ever if I ever read the

297
00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:33.960
term or saw the term individuation,
it didn't stick with me. So if

298
00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:37.200
you would, and you also talk
about the hero's journey, and those are

299
00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:40.640
extremely compelling to me. So first
I think, if you would, for

300
00:19:40.799 --> 00:19:44.680
our listeners and viewers, what is
individuating and how can we activate it for

301
00:19:44.720 --> 00:19:48.160
ourselves? Now? So in individuation
is a term that actually Carl Young did

302
00:19:48.279 --> 00:19:52.480
use, and I thought it was
a little better than self actualization just in

303
00:19:52.519 --> 00:19:57.720
this perspective that one of the things
that he studied was what happens to a

304
00:19:57.720 --> 00:20:03.799
healthy psychological human being and what does
that healthy relationship that it has to everything

305
00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:07.000
else in its environment. And he
called that individuation. And that happens when

306
00:20:07.400 --> 00:20:15.920
somebody attends to their inner world enough
to differentiate themselves from say cultural programs that

307
00:20:15.960 --> 00:20:19.720
we've inherited or that we've we've chosen. So for example, you might grow

308
00:20:19.759 --> 00:20:22.400
up Catholic and then I'm going to
try Buddhism now, and so that's a

309
00:20:22.440 --> 00:20:26.759
switch. You're actually taking a model
and you're going, oh, I'm I'm

310
00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:30.119
casting off this Catholicism and now and
you decide you can use model. But

311
00:20:30.119 --> 00:20:33.720
but individuation is when you go,
okay, wait, I'm not actually going

312
00:20:33.759 --> 00:20:38.119
to seek the world for my answers. I'm going to go inside and find

313
00:20:38.119 --> 00:20:45.000
out how I want to evolve and
curate my own my own journey and that

314
00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:52.279
that So that's the different differentiated individual
that you have with individuation. And so

315
00:20:52.279 --> 00:20:53.960
so what I guess for our listeners
to be able, in our viewers to

316
00:20:53.960 --> 00:20:56.559
be able to have access to that
then is it takes going inwards. So

317
00:20:56.599 --> 00:21:00.400
you have to be you have to
be quiet and listen for the inner voice

318
00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:03.160
and do things that allow you to
well meditate and as you say, the

319
00:21:03.240 --> 00:21:07.759
yoga and all those things that I've
been doing too, and other suggestions.

320
00:21:08.119 --> 00:21:12.559
You know, my biggest suggestion on
doing it is actually the thing that I

321
00:21:12.599 --> 00:21:17.759
think I've learned most through through not
only writing the book and but but experiencing

322
00:21:17.759 --> 00:21:21.359
this stuff is there's a lot of
people that took a long time to actually

323
00:21:21.440 --> 00:21:26.519
understand this stuff. And one of
the things that myself and actually my collaborator,

324
00:21:26.599 --> 00:21:29.519
the Joy, wanted to do is
provide a set of models for people

325
00:21:29.559 --> 00:21:33.839
to use that that kind of cut
the curve off of you know, not

326
00:21:33.920 --> 00:21:40.359
skip steps, but cut the curve
off of experimentation, right and so so

327
00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:45.079
yeah, and so this approach of
say, using lenses and then and as

328
00:21:45.160 --> 00:21:49.240
models to kind of view yourself from
a different perspective. And then slowly after

329
00:21:49.319 --> 00:21:52.960
you you use the lens, you
start to embed the model, and now

330
00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:56.200
you actually have a hammer, right, and so and you have different hammers.

331
00:21:56.240 --> 00:22:00.440
Maslow talked about the golden hammer,
where you know, if you if

332
00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:02.720
you think you have a hammer,
you treat everything else as a nail,

333
00:22:03.160 --> 00:22:07.079
you know, right, And so
it's like it's like, well, you

334
00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:11.440
can't use capitalism and science, it's
not going to work. And you know

335
00:22:11.480 --> 00:22:14.759
they can go together and work together. But you know, so that's what

336
00:22:14.799 --> 00:22:18.680
I'm talking about by by once you
actually start to understand the categories and then

337
00:22:18.759 --> 00:22:23.960
and then really dive in and deal
with the content of your model and make

338
00:22:25.000 --> 00:22:30.440
it yours. That's that's the path. And so, like I went through

339
00:22:30.440 --> 00:22:32.839
all of those things that I talked
about in the book, and you know,

340
00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:36.240
I no longer do yoga or any
of those things. Every day is

341
00:22:36.319 --> 00:22:40.680
yoga, every day is as a
meditation. Every everything that I do is

342
00:22:40.680 --> 00:22:45.160
is just it kind of connects to
the next thing. And there's really no

343
00:22:45.240 --> 00:22:51.000
separation. But but but but it's
yeah, yeah, I get that.

344
00:22:51.400 --> 00:22:53.759
Okay. So we've been talking about
about your models and such more on an

345
00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:56.559
individual basis. Now I want to
move into more of the work realm and

346
00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:00.039
teams, and this next thing that
we're going to talk about is awesome to

347
00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:03.480
get us going on that direction.
So again I'm going to quote from your

348
00:23:03.480 --> 00:23:07.519
book. You say, before self
actualization, people often used to show up

349
00:23:07.559 --> 00:23:11.759
an identity through money, status,
belonging things they must get from other people.

350
00:23:11.240 --> 00:23:15.680
Self actualizing people have gotten to a
place where they see that such things

351
00:23:15.680 --> 00:23:18.400
have limited value. Instead, they
focus not on how their peers see them,

352
00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:22.400
but on what they can produce or
create that they consider worth pursuing.

353
00:23:22.759 --> 00:23:26.720
For self actualizing people, work is
play. They enjoy the opportunity to test

354
00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:32.160
themselves and grow to produce something better
today than there was yesterday. They focus

355
00:23:32.200 --> 00:23:37.359
on the work themselves guilty as charged
say more about this delicious concept. Yeah,

356
00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:41.920
I mean work is play in terms
of I think for me, all

357
00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:45.559
of work is fulfilling, and it
wasn't always that way. Even the stuff

358
00:23:45.559 --> 00:23:48.240
that I don't want to do,
I meant, make no doubt about it.

359
00:23:48.279 --> 00:23:52.200
There's challenges and there's annoyances, and
there's all of those things that come

360
00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:56.759
along with normal work. But I
think that for you know, to bring

361
00:23:56.759 --> 00:24:00.200
it back to the recruiting lens and
to make it to be an easy analogy.

362
00:24:00.640 --> 00:24:04.960
If I'm hiring somebody, the person
that I want to hire is somebody

363
00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:11.240
who wants to see the wants to
see something done in the universe or in

364
00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:17.759
the world that that that it shares
meaning with, say Pathways, And because

365
00:24:17.960 --> 00:24:21.079
I know that if that person wants
to see that done in the world for

366
00:24:21.119 --> 00:24:26.720
themselves and then they see Pathways as
a vehicle to help go do that,

367
00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:30.640
that's that's the alignment. That's that
that's really the ultimate marriage. Now,

368
00:24:32.039 --> 00:24:36.240
it can't happen that way because you
have to do a certain amount of work

369
00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:38.720
on your journey to actually really determine
what you want to go see done in

370
00:24:38.759 --> 00:24:44.960
the world, right, And so
that's the that that's probably the crux of

371
00:24:45.880 --> 00:24:49.799
the best way that I can explain
how to how to view that. Well,

372
00:24:49.839 --> 00:24:53.000
you know, you might know might
recall that from our first conversation when

373
00:24:53.000 --> 00:24:56.640
I first reached out to you,
that I have been a meaning in work

374
00:24:56.640 --> 00:24:59.960
in identity researcher for years and I
started that with my PhD and then I

375
00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:03.680
I did a post STOC. So
I found fifteen modes of engagement and they

376
00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:07.200
looked at the way people experience mean, the level of which people experience meaning,

377
00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:11.680
and also how they themselves connected their
identity with and through their work.

378
00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:14.920
And so one of the modes that
I found was living your purpose, which

379
00:25:14.920 --> 00:25:18.160
is what I'm doing today. There's
that's the number number second of them.

380
00:25:18.200 --> 00:25:22.279
There was also one that I called
self actualizing, and it was where they

381
00:25:22.359 --> 00:25:26.200
people intentionally use their work, like
you're talking about with Pathways, as a

382
00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:33.079
vehicle to realize their potential and their
their and cultivate their competencies. So I

383
00:25:33.200 --> 00:25:36.160
was really people say to me all
the time, wow, you work so

384
00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:38.720
much. Well, actually, this
is all threaded for me. This work

385
00:25:38.799 --> 00:25:42.039
is an expression of who I am, and it goes with me everywhere.

386
00:25:42.119 --> 00:25:45.799
So yeah, I'm working at the
grocery store when I check it out,

387
00:25:45.799 --> 00:25:47.799
not because I'm saying, hey,
do you want to work with me,

388
00:25:48.200 --> 00:25:52.400
but it's just it's just my being, right, So it's inseparable for me.

389
00:25:52.359 --> 00:25:56.759
Yeah. Yeah, you're you're taking
things from every part of your existence

390
00:25:56.759 --> 00:26:00.319
and you're you're plugging it back in
as maybe some of it works as a

391
00:26:00.319 --> 00:26:04.039
metaphor, you know, into your
work, and some of it's a learning

392
00:26:04.119 --> 00:26:10.039
lesson that can be applied to what
you're doing. So it's it's all weaves

393
00:26:10.079 --> 00:26:11.400
that way, doesn't it. It
does? And then then I, you

394
00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:14.920
know, like a Familian conversations,
I could share with you, but I

395
00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:18.079
want to stay on topic. But
yeah, and it's just it's it's one

396
00:26:18.119 --> 00:26:22.559
of those kind of things where every
everything that I end up doing is an

397
00:26:22.559 --> 00:26:26.200
expression of who I am, and
it just happens that I've found and I've

398
00:26:26.480 --> 00:26:30.960
created work that lets me do that
in service of a higher, higher calling

399
00:26:30.039 --> 00:26:33.839
in what's needed in the world.
And it's been a long, hard journey,

400
00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:37.000
as you know, the same thing
for you, but so worth it,

401
00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:40.720
so work that I'm so glad I
did it. And speaking of that

402
00:26:40.799 --> 00:26:44.079
now, what we're kind of getting
to here is what you alluded to earlier

403
00:26:44.119 --> 00:26:47.880
in the program before the first break, and that was this idea of uniqueness.

404
00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:51.559
And I had the pleasure of having
Marcus bucking On on my show a

405
00:26:51.640 --> 00:26:53.640
few months ago. They've following that
man for more than a decade. He

406
00:26:53.839 --> 00:26:59.039
spent twenty five years at the Gallop
organization, and he helped to steward the

407
00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:02.559
whole Strings movement or many went off
on the zone. He's done some other

408
00:27:03.240 --> 00:27:07.240
bits of consulting and assessments now,
but he and I talked about his current

409
00:27:07.240 --> 00:27:10.599
book out that's called Nine Lives About
Work, and one of the things that

410
00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:15.200
he talks about is the importance of
organizations of embracing the uniqueness of each person

411
00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:19.599
inside their organization, finding a way
to really call it what's special about them,

412
00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:23.519
letting them bring that specialness and you
writing your book. Uniqueness, however,

413
00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:27.799
is seen as an anathema to efficiency, so organizations mute it, resulting

414
00:27:27.799 --> 00:27:33.279
in cultures that reward homoginity. Aiming
for standardization and scale may seem to make

415
00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:36.839
it easier to manage people, but
it makes you more vulnerable to competition based

416
00:27:36.839 --> 00:27:41.240
on pricer value, and more importantly, it becomes more difficult for employees and

417
00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:45.680
eventually customers to make an essential connection
to the organization. Say more about this

418
00:27:45.799 --> 00:27:51.880
fascinating, awesome topic. Yeah,
so really uncovering your own going on your

419
00:27:51.880 --> 00:27:55.400
own meaning journey, which is the
journey to uniqueness. I think that that's

420
00:27:55.440 --> 00:28:00.279
an individual thing that you have to
do. There's definitely studies that show that

421
00:28:00.440 --> 00:28:04.240
that when you when you start to
do that, you start to understand that

422
00:28:04.279 --> 00:28:08.920
you don't bring everything to the table
and you can't solve everything, and so

423
00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:14.960
you seek out differences and other people
to be able to collaborate with them and

424
00:28:15.319 --> 00:28:18.400
do well. And that's that's what
really makes great organizations tick. If you

425
00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:22.039
if you look at studies around teams, it's when you can see the differences

426
00:28:22.079 --> 00:28:26.880
and appreciate the differences in others.
Is when teams really start to do well

427
00:28:27.160 --> 00:28:30.119
when you go, oh, that's
that's a leas's you know, neck of

428
00:28:30.119 --> 00:28:33.519
the woods, that's standings neck of
the wood. They you know, and

429
00:28:33.799 --> 00:28:37.680
really kind of more inquiring about that. So that's that's one. And then

430
00:28:37.720 --> 00:28:41.400
I and then and then you know, I think there's this other bit about

431
00:28:41.960 --> 00:28:49.000
there's probably still well not probably,
there's a big I think people get overwhelmed

432
00:28:49.279 --> 00:28:56.319
when even leaders, when they don't
have their own sense of purpose to where

433
00:28:56.359 --> 00:28:59.519
they just want, let's let me
get the job done. I don't have

434
00:28:59.680 --> 00:29:03.640
time for that, right And if
you haven't done that own, if you

435
00:29:03.640 --> 00:29:07.880
haven't taken your own journey, you
kind of lose perspective on what's really important

436
00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:12.400
and it's it's people. You know, organizations are living beings and the problem

437
00:29:12.440 --> 00:29:15.119
is that they can't speak for themselves, they can't act for themselves. They

438
00:29:15.200 --> 00:29:19.240
need humans to do it. And
so that the beauty of you know,

439
00:29:19.839 --> 00:29:25.200
hiring people that are say on the
on the path of the journey of trying

440
00:29:25.240 --> 00:29:26.960
to go, hey, I need
to steward my own meeting. Now they

441
00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:30.359
plug in and they start asking the
question what does the company need instead of

442
00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:36.200
what's my parochial relationship with the company, Why doesn't the company give me meaning?

443
00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:37.319
Well, the company can't give you
me, right, you have to

444
00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:41.440
do your own And I appreciate that
you and I align with you very much.

445
00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:45.920
That meaning and fulfillment is really up
to each of us individuals. It's

446
00:29:45.960 --> 00:29:49.240
not up to the managers. It's
not up to the leader. I love

447
00:29:49.240 --> 00:29:52.200
how you use the word steward.
So that's I'm completely with you. And

448
00:29:52.240 --> 00:29:56.759
it's and it's empowering for the individual. I want the individual to feel empowered.

449
00:29:56.799 --> 00:29:57.920
This is you can do. This
takes a little the work, but

450
00:29:57.960 --> 00:30:00.480
you can do it. And on
that note, let's grab our last break.

451
00:30:00.519 --> 00:30:03.680
I'm Elise Cortez with Working on Purpose. We're got on here with Danny

452
00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:07.880
Gutnick. He is the author of
Meaning at Work in Its Hidden Language.

453
00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:11.920
We've been talking more about how these
concepts informer experience of working can improve it.

454
00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:15.240
After the record, we get a
little bit deeper into leadership and culture.

455
00:30:15.319 --> 00:30:18.799
Stay with us. We'll be right
back. Doctor Release Cortez is a

456
00:30:18.799 --> 00:30:26.119
management consultant specializing in meaning and purpose
and inspirational speaker and author. She helps

457
00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:33.160
companies visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders
and develop purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused

458
00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:38.440
cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance,
and commitment within the workforce. To learn

459
00:30:38.440 --> 00:30:42.480
more or to invite a lease to
speak to your organization, please visit her

460
00:30:42.519 --> 00:30:47.559
at a lease Cortez dot com.
Let's talk about how to get your employees

461
00:30:47.680 --> 00:30:57.119
working on purpose. This is working
on Purpose with doctor Elise Cortez. To

462
00:30:57.160 --> 00:31:02.480
reach our program today or open a
conversation with Elise, send an email to

463
00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:10.039
Elise ali se at Elise Cortez dot
com. Now back to working on purpose.

464
00:31:10.640 --> 00:31:11.880
Thanks for staying with us, and
welcome back to working on Purpose.

465
00:31:11.920 --> 00:31:15.319
It's great to have you. I'm
your host, Elise Cortez. We've been

466
00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:18.960
the heir with Danny Gutnick. He
is the CEO of a company called Pathways.

467
00:31:18.200 --> 00:31:22.240
He's an author of this book,
Meaning at Work in its hidden language.

468
00:31:22.759 --> 00:31:25.079
So Danny, for this next bit
here I want to take us through.

469
00:31:25.079 --> 00:31:26.839
There's several more things I want to
hit from the work and leadership banished

470
00:31:26.839 --> 00:31:30.039
point that what you call in a
book is just so youngy, So let's

471
00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:32.839
keep going here. The first thing
that I want to share with our listeners

472
00:31:32.839 --> 00:31:36.359
and viewers that I thought was profound, and again I didn't know this is

473
00:31:36.440 --> 00:31:40.680
you teach us that meaning is registered
in the limbic brain. So let me

474
00:31:40.759 --> 00:31:44.559
just read this here too, because
it gives us such great direct access into

475
00:31:44.599 --> 00:31:48.599
this idea. So you say people
know the experience of meaning of their limbic

476
00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:52.240
brains being triggered when they have a
difficult time tying it to the task of

477
00:31:52.279 --> 00:31:55.200
their work. They do know.
They do know, however, what it

478
00:31:55.279 --> 00:31:59.279
is not. And despite the fact
that many organizations have well articulate admissions and

479
00:31:59.400 --> 00:32:05.640
visions don't trigger the employees limbic brains. If they don't inspire dam happiness,

480
00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:08.480
they're missing the whole goal to tap
into the well spring of commitment, creativity

481
00:32:08.480 --> 00:32:14.480
and resourcementness that meaningful work solicits.
So get my question to you is,

482
00:32:14.599 --> 00:32:17.960
how are better performing leaders and companies
tapping into the limbic brains of their employees.

483
00:32:17.960 --> 00:32:23.279
How are they doing this well?
I think it starts by by tapping

484
00:32:23.319 --> 00:32:30.079
into your own system of meaning.
And I don't I can't remember who published

485
00:32:30.079 --> 00:32:34.880
the article, but there was an
article recently on trust and how it's fostered

486
00:32:34.880 --> 00:32:40.039
within an organization, and one of
the things they pointed out was that authenticity,

487
00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:47.160
right, just authenticity, openness to
employees, and actually understanding who you

488
00:32:47.200 --> 00:32:52.720
are as a leader was super important
to building trust. The limbic brain is

489
00:32:52.519 --> 00:32:58.799
is just simple. It's it's it's
epeneffrin, right, So what happens is

490
00:32:58.880 --> 00:33:02.680
when epeneffrin hits your heart, muscles
relax, your face relaxes a little bit,

491
00:33:02.759 --> 00:33:07.160
you start to feel a little bit
more at ease. And so that's

492
00:33:07.319 --> 00:33:12.640
that's what's happening when you actually have
situations of trust and connection. And so

493
00:33:13.319 --> 00:33:15.119
you know, one of the things
that I write in my book, which

494
00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:17.480
is about essence mining, is that
it's a structure to actually, you know,

495
00:33:17.599 --> 00:33:22.680
not only understand somebody else's journey and
the strengths that they bring with you

496
00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:25.400
on with them on their journey and
how those go together. But it's also

497
00:33:27.160 --> 00:33:30.319
a methodology on how to examine yourself
and through the words that you stay and

498
00:33:30.440 --> 00:33:36.599
hence you know hidden language and so
those connections. So for example, when

499
00:33:36.640 --> 00:33:39.519
you're talking to me or I'm talking
to you, there's something particular that's interesting

500
00:33:39.559 --> 00:33:45.799
about videos. You have something called
prosody and so far that tournament that was

501
00:33:45.839 --> 00:33:50.079
so cool, say it again,
prosody, And so what's happening. What's

502
00:33:50.079 --> 00:33:53.000
happening is is like when we're looking
at each other and we're connecting. Even

503
00:33:53.039 --> 00:33:57.039
though we're listening to what each other
has to say, or maybe we're thinking

504
00:33:57.079 --> 00:34:00.079
about what we have to say next, our brains are picking up thousands of

505
00:34:00.160 --> 00:34:06.000
other cues facial things, you know, small little little gestures and things like

506
00:34:06.079 --> 00:34:09.239
that, And that's actually kind of
are what people call a BS antenna,

507
00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:15.360
right, So so that so that'll
tie that back a little bit to to

508
00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:20.280
limbic resonance. If if your BS
intena is going off, your fear projectors

509
00:34:20.320 --> 00:34:22.920
and your little brain are going off, and you're starting to distance, you're

510
00:34:22.960 --> 00:34:25.719
starting to look for differences and cues
and those differences and you're starting to say

511
00:34:25.800 --> 00:34:30.199
oh, this is there's something off
here, right, And so to foster

512
00:34:30.360 --> 00:34:35.480
that, you really to to really
tap limbic residence in an organization, you

513
00:34:35.639 --> 00:34:37.880
have to be on the journey of
your yourself too. You have to really

514
00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:40.880
get clear with yourself about who you
are and what you're here to do and

515
00:34:42.480 --> 00:34:45.440
what you care about, and and
you have to learn how to communicate that

516
00:34:45.519 --> 00:34:51.119
authentically to others. This is not
quite on point. Well, two things.

517
00:34:51.199 --> 00:34:52.440
One, just this morning, I
had a great conversation with somebody that

518
00:34:52.480 --> 00:34:55.559
I also met on LinkedIn, and
he and I had a conversation today and

519
00:34:55.760 --> 00:35:00.079
we'll be well, I'm going to
coach him. And that was totally I

520
00:35:00.760 --> 00:35:02.559
would definitely say that would be limbic
residence, the way that we found each

521
00:35:02.559 --> 00:35:07.559
other on LinkedIn and just how we're
connected. But why was laughing because when

522
00:35:07.599 --> 00:35:12.679
you were saying something about how it
is that we take in information and sometimes

523
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:15.400
where things are aligned or disconnected,
I just have to quickly tell the story.

524
00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:17.400
It's so funny. Last week and
I was out running here at white

525
00:35:17.480 --> 00:35:21.840
Rock Lake in Dallas, and I
ran nine and a half miles around why

526
00:35:21.960 --> 00:35:24.960
Rock Lake. I'm walking down and
cooling down, I'm in my shorts and

527
00:35:25.039 --> 00:35:30.039
my running suit here or running bra
and out of the corner of my eye,

528
00:35:30.079 --> 00:35:34.159
I see this bicycle was coming up, and I hear, hey,

529
00:35:34.360 --> 00:35:37.559
are you single? I want to
get a girlfriend from from my friend over

530
00:35:37.679 --> 00:35:40.840
here, at which point I turned
my head and I faced the gentleman that's

531
00:35:40.880 --> 00:35:45.000
talking to me. Each of us
now have a new data registered as we

532
00:35:45.079 --> 00:35:49.119
each faced the other, and he
says, oh, and I screwt laughing

533
00:35:49.119 --> 00:35:52.039
because immediately recognize the disconnect. And
I say, how old are you,

534
00:35:52.119 --> 00:35:54.400
darling? And he goes twenty five? And I said how was your friend

535
00:35:54.639 --> 00:35:58.519
twenty five? And I said,
well, that was a long time ago

536
00:35:58.599 --> 00:36:00.239
for me. It goes, well, you should consider it a compliment,

537
00:36:00.280 --> 00:36:02.639
and you turn it off and you
wrote off. But the funny thing was

538
00:36:02.800 --> 00:36:06.760
right, So we only got that
new data when we each looked at each

539
00:36:06.760 --> 00:36:09.440
other, and it was just so
funny. So that's what I was laughing

540
00:36:09.480 --> 00:36:13.960
at when you talked about that lim
bit resonance sort of thing. Yeah,

541
00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:15.480
we're doing we're doing a lot of
things that we don't know we're doing.

542
00:36:15.639 --> 00:36:20.400
Right. It's crazy, you know, it's just crazy, all right,

543
00:36:20.440 --> 00:36:23.000
So let's keep moving here. We
started talk about this before. But I

544
00:36:23.079 --> 00:36:27.239
appreciate this, and it's important,
especially for people that are listening from the

545
00:36:27.320 --> 00:36:30.400
vantage point of leadership and wanted to
build that fulfillment in their employees or give

546
00:36:30.440 --> 00:36:35.280
them access to it. And it
goes back to that idea of making meaning

547
00:36:35.360 --> 00:36:37.880
possible. So there's all those organizations
that are doing so much good work trying

548
00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:42.599
to make their culture a place people
want to come to. But you distinguish

549
00:36:42.679 --> 00:36:45.320
that organizations can't solve the need for
meaning for their employees, not in the

550
00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:50.360
sense of providing meaning anyway, but
they can make it available through their culture

551
00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:52.880
and doing so, as you say, is monumentally important to the actualization and

552
00:36:53.039 --> 00:36:58.760
activation of individual potentials. Say more, and how can organizations do that?

553
00:36:59.559 --> 00:37:04.480
Yeah, So helping people grow personally
is probably one of the most important things

554
00:37:04.599 --> 00:37:07.960
that that organizations can do. And
I think it comes down to you have

555
00:37:08.119 --> 00:37:14.480
to open up a little bit and
stop trying to hoard your talent and realize

556
00:37:14.480 --> 00:37:19.360
that your company is a living network, is a living being that people are

557
00:37:19.400 --> 00:37:22.880
going to come in and out of
over time, and and the work should

558
00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:27.440
be able to stand for itself,
right and if you if you can categorize

559
00:37:27.440 --> 00:37:30.039
it that way, and then kind
of put that on, you know,

560
00:37:30.239 --> 00:37:31.239
off to the side and say,
hey, we've got a job to do.

561
00:37:31.280 --> 00:37:35.320
We've got to go generate profits and
do these things. But it's a

562
00:37:35.400 --> 00:37:39.840
network with people coming in. How
can I develop people? So personal development

563
00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:44.719
doesn't actually happen if I, as
a manager, am sitting there and saying,

564
00:37:45.159 --> 00:37:47.559
well, at least needs to learn
this, you know, as a

565
00:37:47.679 --> 00:37:52.800
leadership approach. If a lease has
no interest in learning that as a you

566
00:37:52.880 --> 00:37:55.360
know, right, and so you
you you're like, oh gosh, I

567
00:37:55.440 --> 00:38:00.639
got to take this this class on
this this new leadership model role that you

568
00:38:00.679 --> 00:38:01.559
know, somebody read a book on
and it's great, but I have no

569
00:38:01.719 --> 00:38:06.599
interest in doing that. Right,
that's not actually personal development, and that

570
00:38:06.679 --> 00:38:09.440
stuff isn't going to stick, right. And so one of the things that

571
00:38:09.480 --> 00:38:14.920
I've been doing with with organizations is
actually running workshops. And what we do

572
00:38:15.079 --> 00:38:19.239
is we use the content of the
person. So for example, if if

573
00:38:19.280 --> 00:38:22.079
a lease comes into the workshop,
it's like, we use your content first

574
00:38:22.119 --> 00:38:27.119
to help you understand and give you
the tools to analyze yourself and then to

575
00:38:27.199 --> 00:38:30.079
turn around and how to channel that
into what the organization is doing. Right,

576
00:38:30.199 --> 00:38:36.639
So if you don't get clear on
you you're going to constantly uh confabulate,

577
00:38:37.039 --> 00:38:39.400
you know, or contort you know, where do you stop? And

578
00:38:39.440 --> 00:38:42.920
the company ends? And all this
other stuff. Right, So, what

579
00:38:43.119 --> 00:38:50.039
organizations can do better, I think
is actually supply people tools to help them

580
00:38:50.079 --> 00:38:55.119
help themselves, and go with the
understanding that hey, they're at your company

581
00:38:55.199 --> 00:39:00.440
for a reason already that largely they
don't even understand, and and and have

582
00:39:00.639 --> 00:39:04.239
that faith and confidence that what you're
if you're, what you're doing in the

583
00:39:04.280 --> 00:39:07.559
marketplace is important and you you know, you yourself and your leaders care about

584
00:39:07.559 --> 00:39:12.800
it. Your people will come into
the company and and maybe some and slary

585
00:39:12.920 --> 00:39:16.440
skill that they think they're developing on
individuation ends up turning into wow, I

586
00:39:16.519 --> 00:39:20.800
can really channel this towards a job. I've got a great story about that,

587
00:39:20.880 --> 00:39:23.320
by the way, if you want
to hear it for it. Yeah.

588
00:39:24.360 --> 00:39:29.679
So when I was Essence, I
went in an essence mind organizations for

589
00:39:29.719 --> 00:39:32.000
a while, which is really trying
to help them uncover their meaning language within

590
00:39:32.079 --> 00:39:37.159
the organization. And in doing that
I started to uncover all the models and

591
00:39:37.480 --> 00:39:42.440
you know, conflicts they had within
even their structure. But what was important

592
00:39:42.440 --> 00:39:45.440
I came across this one lady once
and she was working in a hospice company

593
00:39:45.960 --> 00:39:49.119
and I was interviewing her and she
said, you don't understand. My life

594
00:39:49.159 --> 00:39:52.480
has no meaning at all. And
I said what do you mean? And

595
00:39:52.679 --> 00:39:54.760
she goes, well, you know
a little over a year ago, my

596
00:39:55.360 --> 00:40:00.920
oldest son died, and then a
few months later my husband died. My

597
00:40:00.199 --> 00:40:04.360
oldest son was unexpected. Then my
husband died, and she goes, and

598
00:40:04.760 --> 00:40:07.159
I've just been in. My life
doesn't have any meaning anymore. And I

599
00:40:07.280 --> 00:40:12.159
really don't care. And I said, now you're working in the She goes,

600
00:40:12.199 --> 00:40:14.719
I don't work on the front line. I don't do the hospice thing.

601
00:40:14.840 --> 00:40:17.000
And the company was by the name
had the name Crossroads. And what

602
00:40:17.119 --> 00:40:21.519
they have as a model that's called
even more Care. And what even more

603
00:40:21.599 --> 00:40:27.360
Care means is that the people,
the nurses and the aids are attending deaths

604
00:40:27.599 --> 00:40:30.679
time of death more often than other
hospices, and so they've set their call

605
00:40:30.800 --> 00:40:35.719
schedule up to make sure that families
have what they need. Instead of like

606
00:40:35.840 --> 00:40:37.800
a lot of hospice models which are
just like, you know, call me

607
00:40:37.880 --> 00:40:40.440
when they pass, or we'll try
to be there or whatever, they have

608
00:40:40.559 --> 00:40:44.559
a model actually set up to do
that. Well, she was telling me

609
00:40:44.719 --> 00:40:46.760
that after her husband and her son
died, they both had a ton of

610
00:40:46.840 --> 00:40:51.400
medical debt and she was going to
go bankrupt. But what she did is

611
00:40:51.480 --> 00:40:55.360
she got so frustrated with it that
she packaged it up and just shared everything

612
00:40:55.519 --> 00:41:00.840
with the hospitals and with the doctors, and lo and behold, they relieve

613
00:41:00.920 --> 00:41:02.559
the debt, and some of them
worked out things with her, and so

614
00:41:02.760 --> 00:41:05.719
she was like, you know,
it freed me. And I said,

615
00:41:05.760 --> 00:41:07.360
now, you mentioned that in the
course of your job, one of the

616
00:41:07.440 --> 00:41:13.199
things that you're doing is you're you're
helping people, are making sure that that

617
00:41:13.400 --> 00:41:15.840
crossroads gets paid. You're an accounts
receivable one. And she goes yeah,

618
00:41:15.880 --> 00:41:20.039
And I said, you also mentioned
that you had some pretty involved conversations with

619
00:41:20.119 --> 00:41:22.960
people, and she goes yeah.
And I go, are you my chant

620
00:41:22.039 --> 00:41:24.119
sharing any of this with them?
And she goes yeah, I try to

621
00:41:24.159 --> 00:41:28.519
help them through it by sharing what
I did. And I go, well,

622
00:41:28.559 --> 00:41:31.960
it's interesting because you're providing even more
care, even though you're in a

623
00:41:32.480 --> 00:41:37.480
role that might not be directly related
to that even more care model. You're

624
00:41:37.519 --> 00:41:40.440
still caring for that customer, that
family, that that patience family, that

625
00:41:42.039 --> 00:41:45.559
well after the patient has gone and
they still have struggles and legal bills and

626
00:41:45.599 --> 00:41:49.440
things like that. Wow, she
goes, I didn't see that. And

627
00:41:49.559 --> 00:41:53.000
so a week later I came back
out to Saint Louis and I was I

628
00:41:53.079 --> 00:41:55.800
was chatting with her, and she
said, you know what, I have

629
00:41:55.880 --> 00:42:00.440
a whole I understand what meaning at
work is now. And she goes,

630
00:42:00.119 --> 00:42:04.800
I've been doing this. I've actually
plugged into the job a little bit more.

631
00:42:04.960 --> 00:42:07.639
I have a sense of purpose about
it. And she goes, and

632
00:42:07.119 --> 00:42:09.599
I'm more fulfilled than I ever had
been. She goes, thank you for

633
00:42:10.039 --> 00:42:15.920
doing that. And so that's that's
a limited example of how powerful just helping

634
00:42:15.960 --> 00:42:21.039
people realize that they can channel what
they're doing they might not be cognizant of

635
00:42:21.119 --> 00:42:24.840
doing it into the organization. Beautiful
example. Danny and I do exactly that

636
00:42:24.920 --> 00:42:29.760
kind of work with my clients too. And it's also you're speaking of really

637
00:42:29.840 --> 00:42:31.800
kind of what logo therapy does,
which is helping people get access to their

638
00:42:31.840 --> 00:42:36.719
meeting systems too. But leaders,
that is what you can do for your

639
00:42:36.760 --> 00:42:39.360
people too, helping them understand just
the difference they're making to the lives of

640
00:42:39.400 --> 00:42:43.760
the people. Sometimes they do need
to have an articulate like Danny just did,

641
00:42:43.840 --> 00:42:45.800
and that is you do something like
that for your people and you've changed

642
00:42:45.800 --> 00:42:50.239
their lives, just like Danny changed
this woman's life. And so that is

643
00:42:50.280 --> 00:42:52.559
a great tip right there, Danny, we're getting so close to being out

644
00:42:52.599 --> 00:42:54.840
a time want to I want to
ask you two more things really quick.

645
00:42:54.920 --> 00:43:00.559
So I want to talk about this
really interesting idea that you talk about that

646
00:43:00.639 --> 00:43:01.719
came from Maslow. And the reason
I want to do this, Dandy,

647
00:43:01.840 --> 00:43:05.760
is that so much of what I'm
trying to do in the world and probably

648
00:43:05.800 --> 00:43:07.760
you two, is I'm trying to
help people discover or get access to their

649
00:43:07.800 --> 00:43:10.960
passion and their purpose and then unleash
it bring it into the world because we

650
00:43:12.079 --> 00:43:15.320
need it terribly. The difference of
that actually makes And so what I found

651
00:43:15.360 --> 00:43:20.119
so compelling is you write quote Maslow
believed the right kind of culture could catalyze

652
00:43:20.119 --> 00:43:23.760
self actualization at mass scale and address
many of societies ills. I agree such

653
00:43:23.800 --> 00:43:28.559
a culture is what we are working
toward by identifying a process for meaning in

654
00:43:28.719 --> 00:43:31.519
such a company. An organizing principle
for getting things done isn't adherence to a

655
00:43:31.599 --> 00:43:36.400
cultural norm, but limbic resonance,
which we talked about before. Would you

656
00:43:36.480 --> 00:43:39.320
say a little bit more about how
limbic resonance is so important in terms of

657
00:43:39.400 --> 00:43:45.119
that unifying aspect and how it cascades. I think, you know, what's

658
00:43:45.199 --> 00:43:51.519
interesting is clearly when you trust those
around you, you can be more open,

659
00:43:51.760 --> 00:43:54.000
you can be more of yourself.
And I think that that's the way

660
00:43:54.079 --> 00:44:00.039
people feel. I don't know if
it's practical or pragmatic to expect that,

661
00:44:01.639 --> 00:44:06.880
because it's just the way that organizations
are are, you know, constructed,

662
00:44:06.960 --> 00:44:12.400
and where humanity is at at this
point. The mass scale thing Maslow didn't

663
00:44:12.400 --> 00:44:15.159
know. It was just a belief. I don't know that it's possible.

664
00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:20.119
It's just it's it's a it's a
thought in terms of we have heard immunity

665
00:44:20.239 --> 00:44:23.719
right which is a common term right
now with COVID. But it's like,

666
00:44:24.480 --> 00:44:31.599
if everybody starts attending to their own
journey and evolving their particular models of work

667
00:44:31.760 --> 00:44:37.920
or whatever that is, it makes
sense that that's going to help others feel

668
00:44:37.960 --> 00:44:42.320
more comfortable attending to those things and
and and calling out what they think is

669
00:44:42.719 --> 00:44:46.320
is them and their contributions and who
they are and those types of things.

670
00:44:46.400 --> 00:44:52.000
And so it's a concept out there, but it's I think that it's it

671
00:44:52.280 --> 00:44:57.039
might be might be possible. Well, I think it is in the sense

672
00:44:57.119 --> 00:45:00.519
that what's what I believe is happening
is that we're developed being an elevated consciousness

673
00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:04.079
by doing the kind of work that
we're doing here, hoping will become more

674
00:45:04.159 --> 00:45:07.960
self aware, and we're elevating our
consciousness. And therefore, as we continue

675
00:45:07.960 --> 00:45:12.199
to elevate that contiqueness, we can
thread a greater mass of people together and

676
00:45:12.320 --> 00:45:15.800
we head toward mass scale. How
does that take I don't know, but

677
00:45:15.960 --> 00:45:19.519
that's certainly on that journey to help
that happen. All right, crush on

678
00:45:20.599 --> 00:45:25.199
one. Yeah, I'll just keep
getting up a look the last thing really

679
00:45:25.280 --> 00:45:28.760
really quick and maybe about a minute
or so, Danny, I love this

680
00:45:29.159 --> 00:45:34.239
organizational dynamic lingua franca that you have
developed. This is the most fresh concept

681
00:45:34.559 --> 00:45:37.920
quickly. What is it? Wise
important? So it's it's the it's the

682
00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:40.079
meaning language of an organization. We
have four different languages. We have like

683
00:45:40.280 --> 00:45:44.599
a scientific language, which is data, you know, facts, things like

684
00:45:44.679 --> 00:45:47.960
that. We've got regulatory language,
which is responsibilities and roles. We've got

685
00:45:49.039 --> 00:45:52.360
business language, which is marketing and
sales, right, and then we have

686
00:45:52.480 --> 00:45:57.239
a meaning language and everybody has their
own meaning vernacular but when we're talking about

687
00:45:57.320 --> 00:46:00.000
concepts within the organization, a lot
of times we don't know. And this

688
00:46:00.119 --> 00:46:05.320
happened when I was interviewing people at
Baptist San Antonio Hospital, five different locations.

689
00:46:05.719 --> 00:46:08.400
What happened was different people at different
edges of the city. We're talking

690
00:46:08.440 --> 00:46:12.480
about the organization the same way,
but they weren't using the same words.

691
00:46:12.840 --> 00:46:15.639
And so to be able to tie
those that cognition to oh, these are

692
00:46:15.719 --> 00:46:19.880
two these concepts are going the same
way, but you guys are talking about

693
00:46:19.920 --> 00:46:22.280
them completely differently. How do we
meld that together? Now, that would

694
00:46:22.280 --> 00:46:25.559
be the organizational dynamic Lingua franco,
where it's like, oh, yeah,

695
00:46:25.760 --> 00:46:30.400
what Elise said is really important,
and what she said, she said it

696
00:46:30.440 --> 00:46:35.199
better than I did. Right described
that concept. And so what happens is

697
00:46:35.400 --> 00:46:39.079
with the organizational meaning, the more
that we actually can tie in and understand

698
00:46:39.159 --> 00:46:43.280
it, the more that we can
go. Elise is going to learn what

699
00:46:43.400 --> 00:46:45.639
I have to say about the organization
on its journey, and I'm going to

700
00:46:45.719 --> 00:46:50.239
learn from Elise her perspective on it
and the fact that we're all talking.

701
00:46:50.840 --> 00:46:53.440
You know that parable of the Eight
Blind Men and the Elephant. No,

702
00:46:53.679 --> 00:46:57.599
but we probably don't have time for
it though, but hang on to that.

703
00:46:58.480 --> 00:47:00.599
We're out of time to tell you. Thank you so much for letting

704
00:47:00.639 --> 00:47:05.719
me find you. Lasso you come
on the show. Let me totally didest

705
00:47:05.719 --> 00:47:07.880
your book. It was fantastic.
Thank you for joining us, beautiful,

706
00:47:07.960 --> 00:47:12.800
there's enjoyable. Thanks alas so welcome
listeners and viewers. If you want to

707
00:47:12.880 --> 00:47:15.840
learn more about Danny, his work
or his book, go start by visiting

708
00:47:15.920 --> 00:47:19.800
his website, it's pathways dot io. Last week, if you missed the

709
00:47:19.880 --> 00:47:22.559
live show, you can catch a
recorded podcast or on YouTube, we were

710
00:47:22.639 --> 00:47:28.079
on the air with Hugh Baloub talking
about his work developing transformational leadership in nonprofit

711
00:47:28.119 --> 00:47:31.639
in church organizations, and he also
shared, like Danny did, somewhat how

712
00:47:31.760 --> 00:47:37.440
his decades of experienced conducting symphonies inform
his own leadership and practice developing it in

713
00:47:37.559 --> 00:47:40.559
others. Fascinating. Next week,
we've got a special show for you on

714
00:47:40.679 --> 00:47:45.159
air with us will be Sherry Elliott. You're talking about her bold new venture

715
00:47:45.239 --> 00:47:49.559
as this insual gal. Her newfound
purpose to bring intimacy back in the lives

716
00:47:49.559 --> 00:47:52.800
of couples. Promises to be a
juicy conversation. This is not just for

717
00:47:52.840 --> 00:47:57.239
show, but this is true transformation
and coming into your being. See you

718
00:47:57.320 --> 00:47:59.000
the air. Remember that work is
at least or third of our lives,

719
00:47:59.039 --> 00:48:04.400
and Danny says, so let's work
on purpose. We hope you've enjoyed this

720
00:48:04.480 --> 00:48:08.039
week's program. Be sure to tune
into Working on Purpose, featuring your host,

721
00:48:08.119 --> 00:48:14.440
doctor Elise Cortez, each week on
the Voice America Empowerment Channel. Together,

722
00:48:14.800 --> 00:48:21.239
we'll create a world where business operates
conscientiously. Leadership inspires impassioned performance,

723
00:48:21.679 --> 00:48:25.039
and employees are fulfilled in work that
provides the meaning and purpose they crave.

724
00:48:25.800 --> 00:48:29.320
See you there, Let's work on
Purpose.