May 27, 2025

In a Meaning-Obsessed World, What Does “Meaning” Really Mean?

In a Meaning-Obsessed World, What Does “Meaning” Really Mean?
iHeartRadio podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon Amazon Music podcast player icon Audible podcast player icon Pandora podcast player icon Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Podchaser podcast player icon Deezer podcast player icon Audacy podcast player icon Youtube Music podcast player icon Spreaker podcast player icon Podcast Addict podcast player icon Castbox podcast player icon JioSaavn podcast player icon Castamatic podcast player icon Castro podcast player icon Fountain podcast player icon Goodpods podcast player icon Overcast podcast player icon PlayerFM podcast player icon PocketCasts podcast player icon Podimo podcast player icon Podurama podcast player icon Podverse podcast player icon Podyssey podcast player icon YouTube podcast player icon RSS Feed podcast player icon
iHeartRadio podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon Amazon Music podcast player icon Audible podcast player icon Pandora podcast player icon Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Podchaser podcast player icon Deezer podcast player icon Audacy podcast player icon Youtube Music podcast player icon Spreaker podcast player icon Podcast Addict podcast player icon Castbox podcast player icon JioSaavn podcast player icon Castamatic podcast player icon Castro podcast player icon Fountain podcast player icon Goodpods podcast player icon Overcast podcast player icon PlayerFM podcast player icon PocketCasts podcast player icon Podimo podcast player icon Podurama podcast player icon Podverse podcast player icon Podyssey podcast player icon YouTube podcast player icon RSS Feed podcast player icon

As more people seek fulfillment and impact in their careers, the words “meaning” and “purpose” are often used interchangeably. But are they truly the same? What exactly qualifies as meaningful, and how do we define meaning itself? What is purpose, and where does it come from? In this thought-provoking conversation with renowned philosopher Thaddeus Metz, we explore the nuanced dimensions of meaning—how it shapes our lives, work, and pursuit of the good life.

Working on Purpose is broadcast live Tuesdays at 6PM ET and Music on W4CY Radio ( www.w4cy.com ) part of Talk 4 Radio ( www.talk4radio.com ) on the Talk 4 Media Network ( www.talk4media.com ). Working on Purpose is viewed on Talk 4 TV ( www.talk4tv.com ).

Working on Purpose Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media ( www.talk4media.com ), Talk 4 Podcasting ( www.talk4podcasting.com ), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/working-on-purpose--2643411/support .

WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:02.399
The topics and opinions express in the following show are

2
00:00:02.439 --> 00:00:04.080
solely those of the hosts and their guests and not

3
00:00:04.120 --> 00:00:07.000
those of W FOURCY Radio. It's employees are affiliates. We

4
00:00:07.080 --> 00:00:10.160
make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show programs, services,

5
00:00:10.199 --> 00:00:12.519
or products mentioned on air or on our web. No

6
00:00:12.640 --> 00:00:15.519
liability explicit or implies shall be extended to W FOURCY

7
00:00:15.640 --> 00:00:18.320
Radio or its employees are affiliates. Any questions or comments

8
00:00:18.359 --> 00:00:20.559
should be directed to those show hosts. Thank you for

9
00:00:20.640 --> 00:00:23.440
choosing W FOURCY Radio.

10
00:00:28.280 --> 00:00:31.679
What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the

11
00:00:31.719 --> 00:00:34.880
answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose

12
00:00:34.920 --> 00:00:38.280
at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their

13
00:00:38.320 --> 00:00:41.679
lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization

14
00:00:41.759 --> 00:00:44.479
that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their

15
00:00:44.560 --> 00:00:47.560
highest potential. Business can be such a force for good

16
00:00:47.640 --> 00:00:51.240
in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide

17
00:00:51.280 --> 00:00:54.320
guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we

18
00:00:54.359 --> 00:00:58.679
all want Working on Purpose. Now, here's your host, Doctor

19
00:00:58.679 --> 00:00:59.759
Relise Cortes.

20
00:01:04.439 --> 00:01:06.400
Welcome back to the Working on Purpose program, which has

21
00:01:06.799 --> 00:01:08.719
been brought to you with passion and pride since February

22
00:01:08.719 --> 00:01:11.120
of twenty fifteen. Thanks for tuning again this week. Great

23
00:01:11.159 --> 00:01:13.760
to have you. I'm your host, doctor Alas Cortes. If

24
00:01:13.760 --> 00:01:15.359
we have not met before and you don't know me,

25
00:01:15.400 --> 00:01:19.120
I'm an organizational psychologist and management consultant, logo therapists, speaker

26
00:01:19.159 --> 00:01:21.480
and author. My team and I at Gusta Now help

27
00:01:21.519 --> 00:01:24.640
companies to enligen and fortify their operations by building a dynamic,

28
00:01:24.719 --> 00:01:28.680
high performance culture and inspirational leadership activated by meaning and purpose.

29
00:01:29.000 --> 00:01:31.799
And did you know that inspired employees outperform their satisfied

30
00:01:31.799 --> 00:01:34.200
peers by a factor of two point twenty five to one.

31
00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:37.000
In other words, inspiration is good for the bottom line.

32
00:01:37.120 --> 00:01:38.359
You can learn more about us and how we can

33
00:01:38.400 --> 00:01:41.640
work together at gusto dashnow dot com or my personal

34
00:01:41.640 --> 00:01:44.959
site at least Cortes dot com. Getting into today's program

35
00:01:45.000 --> 00:01:47.319
we have with us today Doctor Thadius Metz, who has

36
00:01:47.439 --> 00:01:50.959
established himself for having helped to develop life's meaning as

37
00:01:51.000 --> 00:01:54.599
a distinct field of Anglo American philosophy and currently serves

38
00:01:54.640 --> 00:01:57.040
as a research professor at the University of Pretoria in

39
00:01:57.079 --> 00:02:00.239
South Africa. He is a prolific author, having published more

40
00:02:00.239 --> 00:02:03.879
than three hundred professional books, chapters and articles which include

41
00:02:04.239 --> 00:02:07.959
such as Meaning in Life and Analytics, Study God's Soul

42
00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:10.840
and the Meaning of Life and what makes life meaningful?

43
00:02:10.879 --> 00:02:11.360
A debate.

44
00:02:11.599 --> 00:02:14.800
He joined it today from pretorious, South Africa. Professor Metz

45
00:02:14.879 --> 00:02:16.280
Welcome to Working on Purpose.

46
00:02:17.319 --> 00:02:19.120
Hi, thanks for having me at least.

47
00:02:19.120 --> 00:02:22.360
It's wonderful to have you. I terribly enjoyed this book.

48
00:02:22.360 --> 00:02:24.159
I read it cover to cover as I always do,

49
00:02:24.199 --> 00:02:25.439
and a couple of the other things that you sent

50
00:02:25.479 --> 00:02:28.639
me as well. So I really applaud your work. And

51
00:02:28.800 --> 00:02:30.639
as I told you before we got on air, I

52
00:02:30.719 --> 00:02:32.840
went down the rabbit hole, and I mean, you really

53
00:02:32.879 --> 00:02:35.599
got me thinking about something. So I really appreciate your work.

54
00:02:36.159 --> 00:02:37.840
Oh that's hardening, glad to hear it.

55
00:02:38.159 --> 00:02:40.400
Yeah, so at least you've got at least one fan,

56
00:02:40.680 --> 00:02:44.479
we know that, right, terrific. I want to start with

57
00:02:44.520 --> 00:02:46.800
something that I think is pretty profound. Even the way

58
00:02:46.840 --> 00:02:49.159
you open the book, it's you know, you've situated the

59
00:02:49.199 --> 00:02:54.240
book as a debate between you and Professor Joshua Secris.

60
00:02:54.560 --> 00:02:56.479
And what I love about it that is, I love

61
00:02:56.560 --> 00:02:59.280
that it's one It's there's a playful banter, but there's

62
00:02:59.319 --> 00:03:01.560
a respect for banter. And what I also want to

63
00:03:01.599 --> 00:03:04.159
just call out, here is just how you really, you know,

64
00:03:04.280 --> 00:03:07.240
you you're showing us, you're modeling for us how to

65
00:03:07.280 --> 00:03:09.919
have a productive or respectful debate where you can completely

66
00:03:09.919 --> 00:03:13.199
disagree with each other on tremendous grounds, but then, as

67
00:03:13.240 --> 00:03:16.639
you say, afterwards, but then go have a beer together afterwards.

68
00:03:16.919 --> 00:03:18.680
I think that's the world we need right now, if

69
00:03:18.680 --> 00:03:20.039
you could please help us with that.

70
00:03:20.039 --> 00:03:24.319
That, Yeah, I think that's a that's a model, and

71
00:03:24.360 --> 00:03:30.639
it's a kind of meaningful engagement. I actually think you

72
00:03:30.719 --> 00:03:33.759
mentioned two things, a dialogue on the one hand, and

73
00:03:33.840 --> 00:03:37.680
searching for truth together in some kind of constructive way.

74
00:03:39.360 --> 00:03:41.800
And I think I don't think that's you know, I

75
00:03:41.800 --> 00:03:44.599
don't think meaning in life is completely a matter of

76
00:03:44.599 --> 00:03:47.919
those things. But when they're absent, we notice and there's

77
00:03:47.919 --> 00:03:51.479
something missing. And we see this in some of the

78
00:03:51.560 --> 00:03:56.039
images that philosophers use to capture a meaningless life. So

79
00:03:56.199 --> 00:03:58.919
Robert knowsick about fifty years ago he was a Harvard

80
00:03:59.400 --> 00:04:03.719
philosopher lecturer there and he imagined that there was an

81
00:04:03.960 --> 00:04:07.439
what he called an experienced machine, and you didn't have

82
00:04:07.520 --> 00:04:10.240
it's basically a virtual reality device, that's what we would

83
00:04:10.240 --> 00:04:12.560
call it these days. But there was no such thing

84
00:04:12.599 --> 00:04:15.479
fifty years ago, and he imagined that you could get

85
00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:22.560
into this device and it would simulate various activities, so

86
00:04:22.639 --> 00:04:25.240
you would think you're writing the great American novel, or

87
00:04:25.959 --> 00:04:28.680
suppose you're having a great romance, but you're not actually

88
00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:34.000
there doing that. You're fooled by the machine. And he

89
00:04:34.399 --> 00:04:37.040
came up with this thought experiment to suggest that while

90
00:04:37.040 --> 00:04:39.839
a life might be happy in such a machine, it

91
00:04:39.879 --> 00:04:43.120
would be missing some meaning. And part of the reason,

92
00:04:43.160 --> 00:04:45.680
he thinks, is that we would be isolated from each other.

93
00:04:45.759 --> 00:04:48.079
We would just be alone with the technology on the

94
00:04:48.120 --> 00:04:50.720
one hand, but we would also be deceived on the

95
00:04:50.720 --> 00:04:53.439
other We wouldn't be in touch with the truth. And

96
00:04:53.519 --> 00:04:56.040
so it looks like for many of us doing philosophy,

97
00:04:56.560 --> 00:05:01.120
meaning comes from coming together and in search of truths.

98
00:05:01.759 --> 00:05:04.040
That's part of what's going on in a meaningful life.

99
00:05:04.399 --> 00:05:08.759
It's really beautiful. I think it's important for us to distinguish.

100
00:05:08.839 --> 00:05:11.560
I mean, I think really anybody who's listening listening to

101
00:05:11.639 --> 00:05:14.319
us talk on this program today, certainly you can go

102
00:05:14.360 --> 00:05:17.639
a day without hearing two words meaning and purpose. But

103
00:05:17.959 --> 00:05:21.199
the way that you, both you and Professor Seacrest talk

104
00:05:21.240 --> 00:05:23.360
about meaning, So there's the meaning in life, which is

105
00:05:23.399 --> 00:05:25.879
the personal part of it, and then there's a meaning

106
00:05:25.959 --> 00:05:28.399
of light that's the cosmic part of things. So if

107
00:05:28.399 --> 00:05:30.439
you could distinguish a little bit for our listeners and

108
00:05:30.519 --> 00:05:35.360
viewers between those two very very distinct realms, there.

109
00:05:35.240 --> 00:05:39.040
Are really two questions here, two different questions. One is

110
00:05:39.160 --> 00:05:42.800
which life do we want to inquire about? Is it

111
00:05:42.800 --> 00:05:45.040
the life of an individual such as my life? Do

112
00:05:45.079 --> 00:05:47.160
I want to know whether my life is meaningful or

113
00:05:47.199 --> 00:05:50.639
how it is meaningful? That's one sort of question, you know,

114
00:05:50.839 --> 00:05:53.360
distinguishing between whether I want to know whether it's my

115
00:05:53.519 --> 00:05:55.639
life or whether it's the life of the human race

116
00:05:56.319 --> 00:06:01.079
or life anywhere to be found in the universe. That's

117
00:06:01.120 --> 00:06:04.240
one question, whose life are we interested in? But the

118
00:06:04.279 --> 00:06:09.279
second question is, given a choice of which life to evaluate,

119
00:06:09.759 --> 00:06:12.560
how do we appraise it? Do we appraise it from

120
00:06:12.600 --> 00:06:15.079
a sort of human point of view or do we

121
00:06:15.120 --> 00:06:19.319
take a very big cosmicpective, perhaps a god's eye point

122
00:06:19.360 --> 00:06:22.480
of view, and ask about the impact of that life

123
00:06:22.600 --> 00:06:28.879
on not merely those on earth, but potentially the universe

124
00:06:28.879 --> 00:06:34.160
as a whole. Most philosophers of life's meaning these days

125
00:06:34.240 --> 00:06:37.120
focus on the individual as opposed to the meaning of

126
00:06:37.160 --> 00:06:41.360
the human race. As a whole. And furthermore, when they

127
00:06:41.439 --> 00:06:43.920
evaluate the life of an individual, they tend to do

128
00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:49.079
it in terms from a human point of view, and

129
00:06:49.120 --> 00:06:52.600
so many of us treat the category of meaning in

130
00:06:52.639 --> 00:06:55.639
life as similar to inquiry into what makes a life

131
00:06:55.680 --> 00:06:59.399
happy or when is a body health? Those are about

132
00:06:59.399 --> 00:07:03.839
an individual, and they're not cosmic questions. They are questions

133
00:07:03.839 --> 00:07:07.279
about a life here on earth. And many of us

134
00:07:07.319 --> 00:07:09.879
think that when we're talking about meaning in life, we're

135
00:07:09.959 --> 00:07:13.000
talking about mainly something that's similar, a kind of value

136
00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:16.600
that's similar to happiness or health. And I think part

137
00:07:16.639 --> 00:07:19.480
of the reason for that is that when we get

138
00:07:19.519 --> 00:07:22.680
into cosmic questions, if we ask about what the point

139
00:07:22.839 --> 00:07:25.680
of humanity is, or if we ask about whether the

140
00:07:25.759 --> 00:07:29.399
human race has some role to play in the whole universe,

141
00:07:30.240 --> 00:07:35.160
it's hard to avoid invoking God as understood in the

142
00:07:35.439 --> 00:07:40.839
Abrahamic faiths. And relatively few professional philosophers claim to know

143
00:07:40.920 --> 00:07:46.199
that God exists. They might believe on faith, okay, but philosophers,

144
00:07:46.240 --> 00:07:48.800
you know, by definition, we're looking for evidence. We're looking

145
00:07:48.879 --> 00:07:51.600
for good reasons to believe one thing rather than another.

146
00:07:52.639 --> 00:07:56.600
And relatively few professional philosophers think we have a very

147
00:07:56.639 --> 00:08:00.199
solid case in terms of evidence that God exists, and

148
00:08:00.240 --> 00:08:04.040
so that's led many of us to focus on uh

149
00:08:04.360 --> 00:08:06.560
less cosmic questions, more earthly ones.

150
00:08:08.920 --> 00:08:11.360
So delightful that so wonderful to me too. And I

151
00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:13.879
think I remember which which book it was that I

152
00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:15.959
read about you, But I read a book every single

153
00:08:15.959 --> 00:08:18.480
week for my podcast. But so glad I found you,

154
00:08:18.519 --> 00:08:20.279
and so glad that you said yes, I'll come on

155
00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:24.759
your podcast with you very just chewy questions. So, given

156
00:08:25.000 --> 00:08:27.959
just how much there is to consider around just meaning,

157
00:08:28.040 --> 00:08:30.560
and I'm going to layer some information around that, or

158
00:08:30.600 --> 00:08:33.679
at least my perspective here in just a second. Now,

159
00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:36.480
let's let's just contrast that with purpose. How would you

160
00:08:36.559 --> 00:08:38.600
distinguish meaning from purpose?

161
00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:43.519
I think a lot of meaning in life is a

162
00:08:43.559 --> 00:08:47.000
matter of achieving a purpose. If I look at my life,

163
00:08:47.080 --> 00:08:50.519
I'm striving to teach my students something, i want to

164
00:08:50.559 --> 00:08:53.200
make a difference to my field. I want to rear

165
00:08:53.360 --> 00:08:57.639
my children with love and wisdom. I want my marriage

166
00:08:57.759 --> 00:09:02.679
to be strong, happy and so. And those are intuitively

167
00:09:02.759 --> 00:09:05.120
sources of meaning for me, where if I were able

168
00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:10.919
to achieve those purposes. But I think there can be

169
00:09:11.039 --> 00:09:14.759
ways of a life being meaningful that don't involve striving

170
00:09:14.799 --> 00:09:22.759
to achieve a goal. And I think one example, might

171
00:09:23.159 --> 00:09:28.799
hear a few examples. I think, if I love other people,

172
00:09:28.840 --> 00:09:31.519
I'm achieving a kind of purpose of my own. But

173
00:09:31.600 --> 00:09:35.720
if others love me, might not involve any goal directed

174
00:09:35.799 --> 00:09:39.120
activity on my part. Right, there's no striving on my part.

175
00:09:39.159 --> 00:09:43.360
It's something I receive. Or if I think of the

176
00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:46.799
life of Vincent van Go and I think of the

177
00:09:46.840 --> 00:09:50.720
recognition he received after he had died, you know, after

178
00:09:50.759 --> 00:09:53.480
he died, we suppose there wasn't any activity, There wasn't

179
00:09:53.480 --> 00:09:58.399
any striving to achieve a goal, but the influence of

180
00:09:58.440 --> 00:10:01.840
his art and the recognition he receive eat for it

181
00:10:01.879 --> 00:10:07.679
probably made his life, for his existence more meaningful. I

182
00:10:07.720 --> 00:10:10.720
think as well, just simply living in certain environments can

183
00:10:10.759 --> 00:10:13.360
make our lives more important. So if if you live

184
00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:19.399
in a beautiful place, perhaps there's there's nature or really

185
00:10:19.440 --> 00:10:22.919
intricate old architecture, I think a life can be more

186
00:10:22.960 --> 00:10:26.240
important for being in that environment, as opposed to just

187
00:10:26.360 --> 00:10:30.360
being in a place with blocks of prefabricated apartments something

188
00:10:30.440 --> 00:10:36.360
like that, you know, sort of standardized, standardized flats, and

189
00:10:36.399 --> 00:10:40.519
that again doesn't evolve striving to achieve a purpose. So

190
00:10:41.240 --> 00:10:44.519
I think a chunk of meaning consists of achieving purpose.

191
00:10:44.639 --> 00:10:48.120
But we can but meaning can sometimes come to us passively.

192
00:10:48.200 --> 00:10:50.799
We can be recipients of love or recognition, or we

193
00:10:50.960 --> 00:10:54.320
can just be in a setting that we didn't create ourselves,

194
00:10:54.320 --> 00:10:56.039
but we're lucky enough to be there.

195
00:10:58.279 --> 00:11:00.679
So I'll comment on a couple of things there. One

196
00:11:00.799 --> 00:11:03.360
is so from my vantage point as a as a

197
00:11:03.399 --> 00:11:06.639
logo therapist, and we can talk about that next or whatever,

198
00:11:06.720 --> 00:11:09.000
but but definitely want to situate it because that's really

199
00:11:09.120 --> 00:11:13.240
my it's my chief way of really understanding or embracing

200
00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:15.039
the world of meaning. You know, that's the doctor Pritt

201
00:11:15.080 --> 00:11:18.919
Frankel's work, of course, and and so you know, the

202
00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:22.879
way it's situated in logo logo therapy or logo philosophy

203
00:11:23.039 --> 00:11:25.960
is that meaning is really it's our chief concern and

204
00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:29.759
it's our chief source of energy. So how I distinguish

205
00:11:29.799 --> 00:11:32.639
meaning and purpose is meaning is our is our energy source,

206
00:11:32.679 --> 00:11:35.440
and purpose is the directionality, if you will, a where

207
00:11:35.440 --> 00:11:38.080
we're aiming, if you will, our passions and our and

208
00:11:38.120 --> 00:11:40.600
our and our energies. So that's how I like to

209
00:11:40.679 --> 00:11:43.360
I like to situate it. Do you know anything about

210
00:11:43.440 --> 00:11:44.320
logo therapy or.

211
00:11:45.279 --> 00:11:47.919
I read from long ago, and I sort of have

212
00:11:47.960 --> 00:11:51.799
a broad sense of the basics. Sure, you know, from

213
00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:55.320
my own view, I think achieving the purpose is often meaningful.

214
00:11:55.320 --> 00:11:56.919
It's got to be the right purpose. Can't just be

215
00:11:57.000 --> 00:12:01.600
any ye, right. If the p is to just count

216
00:12:01.639 --> 00:12:05.360
blades of grass or walk in a circle consistently and

217
00:12:05.399 --> 00:12:11.080
there's no sort of valuable output, it's not meaningful. It

218
00:12:11.080 --> 00:12:13.399
doesn't make one's life more important. There's got to be

219
00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:15.200
something more to the purpose.

220
00:12:15.879 --> 00:12:18.320
Yeah, And that's where this is so interesting that I mean,

221
00:12:18.440 --> 00:12:20.960
I really got interested in the world of meaning and

222
00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:24.559
purpose in my mid twenties when I was then at

223
00:12:24.559 --> 00:12:26.840
that time living with my boyfriend, first in Spain and

224
00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:28.759
then in Brazil for a total of about three years.

225
00:12:29.080 --> 00:12:32.039
An amazing life, you know, a really really beautiful, opulent life,

226
00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:35.480
living made chauffeur, a gardener, the whole thing. And what

227
00:12:35.559 --> 00:12:39.360
I discovered, though was the emptiness of that. And that's

228
00:12:39.360 --> 00:12:41.519
when I discovered that we as humans are you know,

229
00:12:41.559 --> 00:12:43.799
we're best when we're needed. And you talk about that

230
00:12:43.840 --> 00:12:46.840
too in your book, and that's of course the self

231
00:12:46.840 --> 00:12:50.039
transcendence part of things. And so you know, what I

232
00:12:50.080 --> 00:12:52.279
talk about in my work is purpose is always about

233
00:12:52.279 --> 00:12:55.039
serving something beyond yourself. And so you know, the counting

234
00:12:55.080 --> 00:12:57.679
the blades of graphs, etcetera. Really isn't helping someone out

235
00:12:57.840 --> 00:13:01.399
or something else. So therefore wouldn't really qualify for you know,

236
00:13:01.480 --> 00:13:04.320
for a purpose either. But anyway, so that's just where

237
00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:06.360
it came from for me, as I discovered just how

238
00:13:06.399 --> 00:13:09.399
empty it is when you really aren't being of service,

239
00:13:09.440 --> 00:13:10.320
you're not being needed.

240
00:13:11.399 --> 00:13:13.759
Yeah, I think that's true. And a lot of that

241
00:13:13.799 --> 00:13:17.200
comes down to activity doing something. So if I go

242
00:13:17.320 --> 00:13:21.960
back to the experience machine thought experiment, there isn't and

243
00:13:22.200 --> 00:13:25.519
there isn't an agent, There isn't an actor fulfilling a purpose.

244
00:13:25.559 --> 00:13:29.080
It's another problem with a life in that sort of thing.

245
00:13:29.120 --> 00:13:33.080
And again, it can be very happy to passively receive pleasure,

246
00:13:33.240 --> 00:13:35.919
let's suppose, and it sounds like you lived a very

247
00:13:35.960 --> 00:13:41.120
pleasant life when they did. But yeah, eating typically comes

248
00:13:41.159 --> 00:13:47.200
from doing and as you said, contributing to something beyond oneself. Typically.

249
00:13:47.679 --> 00:13:50.399
I love the phrase that I that I've used. I

250
00:13:50.440 --> 00:13:51.919
don't remember where I came up with it. Oh, I

251
00:13:51.960 --> 00:13:55.360
know I borrowed it wild alife scratching. It's you know,

252
00:13:55.399 --> 00:13:57.159
I do this and the way organizations help them to

253
00:13:57.200 --> 00:13:59.919
wild a life scratch for their purpose to articulate that.

254
00:14:00.360 --> 00:14:02.240
But now I can tell you where that where that

255
00:14:02.279 --> 00:14:06.759
phrase came from. It's doctor Seuss. Oh, yes, they're very wise,

256
00:14:06.799 --> 00:14:09.559
doctor Seuss. The other the other thing I wanted to

257
00:14:09.559 --> 00:14:11.679
comment on that that I really appreciated in your work,

258
00:14:11.679 --> 00:14:13.360
and you just sort of hinted at it just now,

259
00:14:13.480 --> 00:14:16.279
is this is something that I had discovered myself some

260
00:14:16.360 --> 00:14:18.200
time ago, you know, as a you know, a very

261
00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:24.279
very very very amateur philosopher, is that it is more impactful,

262
00:14:24.360 --> 00:14:28.559
more meaningful, more uh yummy, if you will to be

263
00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:31.679
the one who loves versus just being the one who

264
00:14:31.720 --> 00:14:34.799
receives love. There's there's that passive piece that you're talking about.

265
00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:37.879
There's something I've always found it so much more fulfilling

266
00:14:38.519 --> 00:14:41.279
to be to love someone else than it is just

267
00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:41.960
to be loved.

268
00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:46.440
I think so too, so I you know, I have

269
00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:50.879
colleagues who think it's very important to be loved, whether

270
00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:53.279
by God on the one hand, or I have also

271
00:14:53.320 --> 00:14:56.519
colleagues who think that animals can live meaningful lives if

272
00:14:56.559 --> 00:15:01.399
they're loved by humans. And I guess I don't want

273
00:15:01.399 --> 00:15:03.200
to deny that it would be nice for there to

274
00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:05.200
be a God that loves me. Sure, I'll take that.

275
00:15:06.519 --> 00:15:09.000
And I look at my pets and I suppose, Okay,

276
00:15:09.159 --> 00:15:12.840
perhaps their lives are a bit more meaningful than strays

277
00:15:13.799 --> 00:15:18.240
don't have a family. But you know, if I really

278
00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:22.039
want a substantially meaningful life, I'm not going to remain passive.

279
00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:25.120
I'm not going to be a mayor recipient. Right. So

280
00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:28.600
if I imagine somebody who is widely adored but doesn't adore

281
00:15:28.639 --> 00:15:33.080
anyone himself, or is cared for by lots of people

282
00:15:33.120 --> 00:15:37.840
but never cares for anybody else, that's not very attractive. Yeah,

283
00:15:37.879 --> 00:15:40.679
And it suggests that insofar as love is going to

284
00:15:40.720 --> 00:15:43.720
make our lives meaningful, it's important to be the one loving.

285
00:15:45.480 --> 00:15:47.600
Completely agree with that. And on that note, let's grab

286
00:15:47.639 --> 00:15:49.679
our first break and let our listeners and viewers reflect

287
00:15:49.759 --> 00:15:51.320
on just who it is that they love and who

288
00:15:51.360 --> 00:15:54.080
they can love a bit more. I'm your host, doctor

289
00:15:54.159 --> 00:15:56.960
Lee Cortez. We run the air with Professor of Dadius Metz,

290
00:15:57.000 --> 00:15:59.960
a research professor at the University of Pretoria in South Africa.

291
00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:02.879
We've been talking a bit about distinguishing meaning in life

292
00:16:02.919 --> 00:16:05.840
and meaning of life, among other things. After the break,

293
00:16:05.879 --> 00:16:07.879
we're going to continue the conversation and go a little

294
00:16:07.879 --> 00:16:10.399
bit deeper into naturalist in supernaturalist thought.

295
00:16:10.639 --> 00:16:11.360
I'll be right back.

296
00:16:26.919 --> 00:16:30.480
Doctor Elise Cortez is a management consultant specializing in meaning

297
00:16:30.519 --> 00:16:34.360
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author. She helps companies

298
00:16:34.440 --> 00:16:37.720
visioneer for a greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose

299
00:16:37.799 --> 00:16:42.159
inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance,

300
00:16:42.200 --> 00:16:45.240
and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to

301
00:16:45.279 --> 00:16:48.200
invite a lease to speak to your organization, please visit

302
00:16:48.200 --> 00:16:51.440
her at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to

303
00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:59.879
get your employees working on purpose. This is working on

304
00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:03.600
Purpose with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today

305
00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:06.480
or to open a conversation with Elise, send an email

306
00:17:06.559 --> 00:17:12.240
to Elise alisee at eliscortes dot com. Now back to

307
00:17:12.359 --> 00:17:13.480
working on purpose.

308
00:17:19.079 --> 00:17:20.839
Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to working

309
00:17:20.839 --> 00:17:23.440
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Relise Cortes, as I

310
00:17:23.480 --> 00:17:25.720
am dedicated to helping create a world where people realize

311
00:17:25.720 --> 00:17:27.960
their potential at work and are led by inspirational leaders

312
00:17:27.960 --> 00:17:30.279
that help them find and contribute their greatness and to

313
00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:32.839
business that betters the world. I keep researching and writing

314
00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:34.839
my own books. So one of my latest came out.

315
00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:38.000
It's called a Great Revitalization, How activating meaning and purpose

316
00:17:38.039 --> 00:17:40.599
can radically enliven your business. And I wrote it to

317
00:17:40.599 --> 00:17:43.680
help leaders understand the lay of today's workforce land what

318
00:17:43.720 --> 00:17:45.319
do they want to need to give their best and

319
00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:47.519
want to stay with you? And then I provide twenty

320
00:17:47.559 --> 00:17:49.480
two best practices to help you create a culture that

321
00:17:49.519 --> 00:17:51.680
will provide that for them. You can find my books

322
00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:54.119
on Amazon or my personal site at least Coortes dot

323
00:17:54.160 --> 00:17:56.720
com if you are just now joining us. My guest

324
00:17:56.759 --> 00:17:59.839
is Professor Thautius Metz, the author of numerous articles and books,

325
00:17:59.880 --> 00:18:04.240
including Meaning in Life and analytic study, God, Soul and

326
00:18:04.279 --> 00:18:07.319
the Meaning of Life and what makes Life Meaningful Debate.

327
00:18:08.440 --> 00:18:11.000
So before we get into I want to hear, of course,

328
00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:14.119
about your position on meaning and in life and meaning

329
00:18:14.119 --> 00:18:15.720
of life. But before we do that, if you could

330
00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:18.319
do that, I know in your book you talk about

331
00:18:18.319 --> 00:18:21.279
four distinct cancers, the natural, supernaturalists and a couple that

332
00:18:21.319 --> 00:18:24.480
I forgot. Would you distinguish those for our listeners and viewers.

333
00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:30.839
First, I think the most important distinction amongst philosophers is

334
00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:34.880
between naturalism. On the one hand, and supernaturalism on the other.

335
00:18:36.039 --> 00:18:40.960
And the naturalist is somebody who thinks that we could,

336
00:18:41.000 --> 00:18:47.079
in principle have a fully meaningful life purely in a

337
00:18:47.160 --> 00:18:50.160
natural world, purely in a world where there isn't a

338
00:18:50.200 --> 00:18:54.359
spiritual realm, no supernatural realms. We suppose that God and

339
00:18:54.359 --> 00:18:59.119
the soul, no angels, they don't exist. And the naturalist

340
00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:01.920
maintains if the world is like that, if we just

341
00:19:02.519 --> 00:19:05.440
are in a physical world, our lives could be meaningful.

342
00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:12.240
To supernaturalist denies. That supernaturalist says, nope, we need some

343
00:19:12.559 --> 00:19:16.799
kind of spiritual condition God or a soul. At least

344
00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:22.160
in the Abrahamic and Western tradition, those feature centrally, those

345
00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:25.000
have to exist. At least the bulk of meaning in

346
00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:29.359
our lives is going to come only from those kinds

347
00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:34.119
of those kinds of beings. And the grand debate in

348
00:19:34.160 --> 00:19:37.440
the Western tradition amongst philosophers over the past two hundred

349
00:19:37.640 --> 00:19:40.279
years or so has been between naturalism on the one

350
00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:46.640
hand and supernaturalism on the other. And I myself plunk

351
00:19:46.799 --> 00:19:56.160
for the naturalist view. And that's because I imagine sort

352
00:19:56.200 --> 00:19:59.680
of exemplars of really meaningful lives. So I imagine the

353
00:19:59.720 --> 00:20:04.000
life of Albert Einstein, or Mother Teresa or John Coltrane,

354
00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:08.079
and I look at their accomplishments and I think to myself, Gosh,

355
00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:12.519
even if there's no God, even if these three individuals

356
00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:14.960
have not survived the death of their body, they don't

357
00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:19.519
have a soul. They're dead and gone. Still they had

358
00:20:19.599 --> 00:20:23.720
meaningful lives. There was much more meaning in them compared

359
00:20:23.720 --> 00:20:28.000
to other lives that existed at the time, for example.

360
00:20:29.240 --> 00:20:33.359
And that suggests to me that it's not essential to

361
00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:36.799
have a spiritual realm in order to have a meaningful life.

362
00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:40.759
If it's going to play a role in making life meaningful,

363
00:20:40.799 --> 00:20:42.480
it's going to be a nice bonus. It's going to

364
00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:46.920
be something extra. Maybe we'll live longer, maybe we'll be

365
00:20:47.000 --> 00:20:50.519
in touch with a carrying creator. I'm happy to think

366
00:20:50.559 --> 00:20:52.839
those would be sources of meaning life. I just don't

367
00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:56.119
think they're essential to have meaning in our lives.

368
00:20:57.960 --> 00:21:00.920
I tend to see something similar what I've come what

369
00:21:01.000 --> 00:21:02.839
I've come to in my own life is I would

370
00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:04.880
probably be considered more of a naturalist when it comes

371
00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:08.759
to meaning in life, certainly, although I think what I've

372
00:21:08.759 --> 00:21:10.880
come to is I think there is probably some there

373
00:21:10.920 --> 00:21:13.599
is some kind of you know there's intelligent design to

374
00:21:13.799 --> 00:21:16.680
this whole, this whole thing, and that's I don't feel

375
00:21:16.680 --> 00:21:18.799
the need to really go much further than I just

376
00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:22.160
trust that, judge. I trust the process. But I did

377
00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:25.039
find it really fascinating to listen or to as I

378
00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:28.920
should say, read the debate between you and Professor Secrest,

379
00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:33.160
because he's a supernaturalist, right right, So just fascinating that

380
00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:34.960
you could have that conversation. So now at that point,

381
00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:40.559
now if you could situate for us your position on meaning, right.

382
00:21:40.359 --> 00:21:43.400
So, I think it would be frightfully nice if we

383
00:21:43.480 --> 00:21:45.880
had God or a soul at our disposal to make

384
00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:49.160
our lives more meaningful. But I just you know, even

385
00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:53.200
if they don't exist, still some meaning as possible. And

386
00:21:53.240 --> 00:21:56.279
where would it come from? And at the core of

387
00:21:56.319 --> 00:22:01.000
my proposal is that it comes from our rational or

388
00:22:01.039 --> 00:22:05.799
the exercise of our intelligence. So if I look at Einstein,

389
00:22:05.960 --> 00:22:10.079
mother Teresa, John Coltrane, if I go back to the

390
00:22:10.119 --> 00:22:14.079
other examples we've discussed of making a contribution to others

391
00:22:14.200 --> 00:22:17.839
or achieving a purpose, and what those seem to have

392
00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:22.759
in common are roughly doing things that animals can't do,

393
00:22:23.160 --> 00:22:26.640
at least not nearly as well. There's something higher about

394
00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:33.039
human persons, and philosophers tend to call it rationality. Psychologists

395
00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:39.200
will tend to call it intelligence. But there's something about deliberating, carefully,

396
00:22:39.279 --> 00:22:45.799
being thoughtful, planning, empathizing, being aware of oneself, that cluster

397
00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:48.599
of traits that, when we use them in the right

398
00:22:48.680 --> 00:22:53.119
sort of way, is a source of meaning. And if

399
00:22:53.119 --> 00:22:55.440
I go back to the other cases we've discussed so far,

400
00:22:55.559 --> 00:22:58.640
lee's about where meaning is absent. So it's absent from

401
00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:03.240
the experience machine, and it's it's it's absent from merely

402
00:23:03.279 --> 00:23:07.160
walking around in a circle. Uh, it's absent from merely,

403
00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:13.920
you know, receiving pleasure. Uh. What's what seems to be

404
00:23:13.960 --> 00:23:16.920
missing is the activity. It seems to be the absence

405
00:23:17.000 --> 00:23:22.640
of intelligent behavior on our part. So the way I

406
00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:25.640
argue is to say, well, intuitively these things are meaningful,

407
00:23:25.720 --> 00:23:28.079
and intuitively these things are not. And then I look

408
00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:31.640
for what the difference is between them, and my suggestion

409
00:23:31.839 --> 00:23:34.480
is it's our rational nature being exercised or not.

410
00:23:34.519 --> 00:23:40.119
It's fascinating, and it's really fascinating. I further went on

411
00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:42.640
and when it when it came to the kinds of things,

412
00:23:42.680 --> 00:23:44.559
I think, if I have this right, but these are

413
00:23:44.759 --> 00:23:47.559
I'm attributing it correctly to you and not to Professor Secres.

414
00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:51.839
The collection of things such as meriting pride, transcending one's

415
00:23:51.880 --> 00:23:55.440
animal self, acting on reasons of love, making a contribution,

416
00:23:55.599 --> 00:23:59.160
connecting with something great, authorughing an interesting life, finding the

417
00:23:59.160 --> 00:24:01.359
world to make sense? Are those yours?

418
00:24:03.079 --> 00:24:07.480
Are? They are my suggestions, but they're meant to be neutral.

419
00:24:08.079 --> 00:24:11.559
They're meant to be, in fact, common ground between naturalists

420
00:24:11.640 --> 00:24:14.359
on the one hand and supernaturalists on the other. Okay,

421
00:24:14.440 --> 00:24:18.359
so two different questions when philosophers think about meaning in life.

422
00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:22.640
One is what makes our life meaningful or what would

423
00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:25.359
make it meaningful on the one hand, And then on

424
00:24:25.400 --> 00:24:27.839
the other hand, we pause and sometimes ask, what are

425
00:24:27.839 --> 00:24:32.960
we talking about? If we're talking about meaning, what do

426
00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:35.319
we have in mind that makes it different from talking

427
00:24:35.359 --> 00:24:39.960
about happiness or health or morality? And the list of

428
00:24:39.960 --> 00:24:43.079
features you just mentioned, such as making a contribution, or

429
00:24:43.160 --> 00:24:47.480
doing something that merits pride or admiration, or acting out

430
00:24:47.480 --> 00:24:53.880
of love. My suggestion is naturalists and supernaturalists can agree

431
00:24:54.119 --> 00:24:56.640
that that's what we're talking about. When we're debating about

432
00:24:56.839 --> 00:24:59.839
what makes life meaningful, we're figuring out what would make

433
00:25:00.039 --> 00:25:04.119
our lives worthy of pride or admiration. What would give

434
00:25:04.200 --> 00:25:08.359
them a good uh story to tell? What would it

435
00:25:08.359 --> 00:25:12.319
be to make a real contribution? And as I understand it,

436
00:25:12.359 --> 00:25:14.880
the religious folks say, well, those things are going to

437
00:25:14.960 --> 00:25:20.039
come from God roughly, and the naturalist says maybe in part,

438
00:25:20.119 --> 00:25:22.400
but we could do it without God. If we have to.

439
00:25:24.880 --> 00:25:25.519
Thank you for that.

440
00:25:25.519 --> 00:25:26.039
That was just there.

441
00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:27.799
There was a lot that I could I could certainly

442
00:25:27.799 --> 00:25:30.039
connect with on that whole list from for me, of

443
00:25:30.039 --> 00:25:31.319
course make complete sense.

444
00:25:31.359 --> 00:25:31.559
I was.

445
00:25:31.640 --> 00:25:32.880
I'm in alignment without it for sure.

446
00:25:32.920 --> 00:25:33.599
There's I don't see.

447
00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:36.079
I don't know how you could argue against that list personally,

448
00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:38.079
But I do want to go a little bit deeper

449
00:25:38.119 --> 00:25:41.880
into your particular stance about the intelligence is being such

450
00:25:41.880 --> 00:25:45.160
an important construct in and it is how it is

451
00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:47.720
that we experience meaning in life. And then I want

452
00:25:47.720 --> 00:25:49.160
to comment on a couple of things that that are

453
00:25:49.279 --> 00:25:51.160
that I would love to hear your perspective on that

454
00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:54.519
came from my from my work.

455
00:25:57.400 --> 00:25:59.480
Why don't you go ahead and tell me what how

456
00:25:59.480 --> 00:26:00.480
it might can with you.

457
00:26:00.920 --> 00:26:05.680
Okay, So one thing that I found really interesting, Yeah,

458
00:26:05.680 --> 00:26:07.599
you should be having a beer and not water.

459
00:26:08.160 --> 00:26:09.559
It's five o'clock in your time.

460
00:26:09.640 --> 00:26:13.720
So anyway, so one thing that was for me, I've

461
00:26:13.799 --> 00:26:16.480
had this fascination that for years. I guess it started

462
00:26:16.480 --> 00:26:18.799
when I lived in Rio, as I mentioned, and when

463
00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:22.519
I did my PhD in Human development, I studied the

464
00:26:22.559 --> 00:26:24.960
relation between meaning and work and identity. I wanted to

465
00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:27.480
understand how people experienced meaning in their work and how

466
00:26:27.480 --> 00:26:29.119
do they relate it to their sense of self. So

467
00:26:29.200 --> 00:26:31.680
I did that research, and then later I did a

468
00:26:31.720 --> 00:26:35.000
bit much bigger postdoc research, and this time I really

469
00:26:35.000 --> 00:26:37.799
wanted to understand, you know, really the kinds of meaning

470
00:26:37.799 --> 00:26:39.960
that they were talking about. And as I did these

471
00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:44.119
one hundred and fifteen interviews hundred and fifteen m what

472
00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:46.799
I discovered was as people talked about what was meaningful

473
00:26:46.839 --> 00:26:49.720
in their work, I could code it against like Maslow's

474
00:26:49.759 --> 00:26:53.279
hierarchy of needs. And what I discovered when I did

475
00:26:53.359 --> 00:26:55.720
that that when I just when I started coding for

476
00:26:55.759 --> 00:26:58.839
the kinds of meaning people were talking about. You know,

477
00:26:58.839 --> 00:27:00.160
it's one thing to say I make a lot of

478
00:27:00.200 --> 00:27:02.119
money and I have this big house. That's more the

479
00:27:02.160 --> 00:27:04.440
security level down here where people say things like I'm

480
00:27:04.480 --> 00:27:07.440
really proud of my work, or I feel like I

481
00:27:07.480 --> 00:27:09.799
get to live my highest values by doing my work

482
00:27:10.200 --> 00:27:12.440
or you know, I live by my purpose or whatever.

483
00:27:12.440 --> 00:27:12.720
It is.

484
00:27:13.240 --> 00:27:15.359
What I discovered, which kind of aligns with what you're

485
00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:19.920
talking about with regard to the power of intelligence to

486
00:27:20.039 --> 00:27:23.920
drive meaning. Is that, generally speaking or not even speaking

487
00:27:24.079 --> 00:27:27.240
in terms of my study, what I discovered was the

488
00:27:27.279 --> 00:27:31.720
more frequently people experienced the higher kinds of meaning available

489
00:27:31.759 --> 00:27:35.640
in Maswow's hierarchy, the more meaningful they found their work,

490
00:27:35.799 --> 00:27:38.720
and generally, the more important it was for their sense

491
00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:41.799
of identity. That's what I discovered. So that's what kind

492
00:27:41.839 --> 00:27:43.799
of made me really want to pay attention to and

493
00:27:43.880 --> 00:27:47.079
hear more about why you were so because it wasn't

494
00:27:47.119 --> 00:27:49.839
just the intellect, because it was also the creativity, which

495
00:27:49.880 --> 00:27:52.799
comes of course maybe from intellect as well. But that's

496
00:27:52.799 --> 00:27:57.440
what I discovered. That makes a lot of sense to me.

497
00:27:57.680 --> 00:28:01.839
So if I recall what Aslo says about self actualization

498
00:28:02.039 --> 00:28:07.359
the highest need, it's a matter roughly of realizing your talents. Right,

499
00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:11.799
you bring aspect yourself together to be creative or to

500
00:28:11.839 --> 00:28:15.880
solve problems, or to achieve something morally, and you do

501
00:28:15.960 --> 00:28:18.839
it moreover, in the light of a clear perception of reality.

502
00:28:18.920 --> 00:28:20.599
That's also important for him.

503
00:28:21.799 --> 00:28:24.720
And each one of those things looks to me like

504
00:28:25.160 --> 00:28:29.279
a kind of intelligence. So to have a clear apprehension

505
00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:32.279
of reality is to know something that is an exercise

506
00:28:32.319 --> 00:28:38.519
of the intellect. In a more narrow sense, to be creative,

507
00:28:38.559 --> 00:28:41.640
to solve problems, to make some kind of moral achievement. Again,

508
00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:46.039
all of these involve rationality or intelligence. They're different kinds

509
00:28:46.039 --> 00:28:51.680
of intelligence that psychologists distinguish between. It's not all just IQ.

510
00:28:52.759 --> 00:28:56.920
So I think emotional intelligence or esthetic intelligence are also

511
00:28:57.079 --> 00:29:00.759
important sources of meaning, and those can also be in

512
00:29:00.839 --> 00:29:06.240
play in the work. Yeah, and as the count sources

513
00:29:06.279 --> 00:29:08.759
of self actualization, that's.

514
00:29:08.680 --> 00:29:11.039
What I found as well. So they're variou skins. So today,

515
00:29:11.079 --> 00:29:13.440
what I've kind of come to that is I think

516
00:29:13.480 --> 00:29:16.599
I've really become quite obsessed with the idea of consciousness

517
00:29:16.640 --> 00:29:19.559
and what i'm what i'm and for me, that is

518
00:29:19.599 --> 00:29:22.839
maybe a way too. It's a container for various kinds

519
00:29:22.920 --> 00:29:25.240
of intelligences. Maybe that's what I've kind of come to.

520
00:29:26.160 --> 00:29:28.759
Could you comment on that with your perspective or your

521
00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:30.319
stance on consciousness.

522
00:29:30.680 --> 00:29:33.279
Yeah, so it depends how we define our terms. But

523
00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:36.599
if we say consciousness is a matter of simply an

524
00:29:36.599 --> 00:29:40.079
awareness awareness of something, so awareness of the pain, or

525
00:29:40.519 --> 00:29:42.920
one can see light. I mean those are sort of

526
00:29:42.920 --> 00:29:49.079
more basic, rudimentary forms. I think meaning requires consciousness, but

527
00:29:49.119 --> 00:29:51.440
I think it requires a special kind, which I would

528
00:29:51.440 --> 00:29:56.000
call self consciousness or self awareness. So if you're if

529
00:29:56.000 --> 00:29:59.640
we're talking about self consciousness, we're talking about being aware

530
00:29:59.799 --> 00:30:04.119
of oneself as a self distinct from other parts of

531
00:30:04.160 --> 00:30:07.799
the world and other selves. And it looks like we

532
00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:10.240
human persons have that in a very to a very

533
00:30:10.319 --> 00:30:14.319
rich extent, right, And it looks like animals, or at

534
00:30:14.359 --> 00:30:17.160
least lower animals, don't have that. I just don't think

535
00:30:17.200 --> 00:30:21.720
my cat is aware of itself. It's aware of food,

536
00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:27.039
and it's aware of warmth, but it's not aware of itself.

537
00:30:27.079 --> 00:30:29.400
It doesn't think in terms of an eye, and it

538
00:30:29.440 --> 00:30:32.440
isn't able to step back and say, you know, ask,

539
00:30:32.640 --> 00:30:35.319
you know, should I do this? Or I want this?

540
00:30:35.440 --> 00:30:38.039
But should I pursue? You know, should I do what

541
00:30:38.119 --> 00:30:43.640
I want? We humans are clearly able to do that systematically,

542
00:30:44.839 --> 00:30:47.799
and I think that's at the root of our rationality.

543
00:30:47.839 --> 00:30:50.440
It's what enables us to act for good reasons, to

544
00:30:50.519 --> 00:30:53.599
step back and say, should I do this? Do I

545
00:30:53.640 --> 00:30:55.720
have a good reason to do this? And if I'm

546
00:30:55.759 --> 00:30:57.599
going to do it. How am I going to achieve

547
00:30:58.279 --> 00:31:03.440
achieve this goal? And so if it were just consciousness

548
00:31:03.480 --> 00:31:06.599
that were enough for a meaningful life, then then my

549
00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:09.640
cash would have every bit as meaningful a life as

550
00:31:09.680 --> 00:31:12.440
I do. But I just don't think that. I don't

551
00:31:12.440 --> 00:31:15.200
think his life is meaningless. But I don't. But I

552
00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:17.200
think the human's got a lot more going for it

553
00:31:17.240 --> 00:31:20.880
when it comes to being able to live meaningfully. And

554
00:31:20.920 --> 00:31:23.400
I think ultimately that's because we can be aware of

555
00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:26.799
ourselves and step back and act for good reasons as

556
00:31:26.839 --> 00:31:27.839
opposed to bad ones.

557
00:31:29.880 --> 00:31:32.000
I appreciate how crispy you are that this is a

558
00:31:32.039 --> 00:31:35.279
delicious conversation. Let's let's grub our last break. I'm your host,

559
00:31:35.319 --> 00:31:38.759
doctor Relie's Cortes. We've been on air with Professor Daddius Metz,

560
00:31:38.799 --> 00:31:41.519
a research professor at the University of Buttory in South Africa.

561
00:31:41.799 --> 00:31:44.480
We've been having a most chewy conversation. Will continue when

562
00:31:44.519 --> 00:31:46.400
we come back after the break. We'll be right back.

563
00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:05.319
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning

564
00:32:05.359 --> 00:32:09.200
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies

565
00:32:09.279 --> 00:32:13.079
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired

566
00:32:13.160 --> 00:32:17.119
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and

567
00:32:17.200 --> 00:32:20.440
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite

568
00:32:20.440 --> 00:32:23.440
Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her at

569
00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:26.680
elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your

570
00:32:26.720 --> 00:32:35.519
employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose with

571
00:32:35.640 --> 00:32:38.799
doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or to

572
00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:41.960
open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Elise

573
00:32:42.240 --> 00:32:48.319
alisee at elisecortes dot com. Now back to working on Purpose.

574
00:32:53.799 --> 00:32:55.480
Thanks for sting with us, and welcome back to Working

575
00:32:55.559 --> 00:32:58.319
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes. I mentioned

576
00:32:58.359 --> 00:33:00.720
in the last break that my book came out, The

577
00:33:00.720 --> 00:33:03.640
Great Revitalization. What I did for you is I created

578
00:33:03.640 --> 00:33:06.119
a simple three page assessment that you can pull off

579
00:33:06.119 --> 00:33:08.920
my website. It will help you understand the extent to

580
00:33:08.920 --> 00:33:12.039
which your organization is meeting the needs of today's discerning workforce.

581
00:33:12.160 --> 00:33:15.759
You can find it at gustodashnow dot com. If you

582
00:33:15.799 --> 00:33:18.519
are just now joining us. My guest is Professor Thadius Metz.

583
00:33:18.559 --> 00:33:21.680
He's the author of numerous articles and books, including Meaning

584
00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:24.640
in Life and Analytics, Study God's Soul and the meaning

585
00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:27.519
of life and what makes life meaningful? A debate which

586
00:33:27.559 --> 00:33:31.119
I just recently read. It was magnificent. So before we

587
00:33:31.119 --> 00:33:34.559
get into further uncovering a bit more of what's under

588
00:33:34.640 --> 00:33:36.799
your perspective and such, I want to share with you

589
00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:39.160
a bit more about logo therapy and let you respond

590
00:33:39.240 --> 00:33:42.480
to that. And I happened. What happened for me is

591
00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:44.440
I of course came across his work when I was

592
00:33:44.440 --> 00:33:47.279
doing my PhD program, but then I was reintroduced to

593
00:33:47.359 --> 00:33:49.759
him in twenty nineteen and I had somebody in my

594
00:33:49.759 --> 00:33:51.559
podcast talking about it, and then I went down and

595
00:33:51.759 --> 00:33:54.480
became like a diplomat level, which is like a level

596
00:33:54.519 --> 00:33:58.160
like a master's level degree in that. So in logo therapy,

597
00:33:58.319 --> 00:34:01.279
the whole idea is that main principle is that our

598
00:34:01.359 --> 00:34:04.160
chief concern as humans is meaning, and it's our chief

599
00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:09.519
energy source and so and our meaning is registered around

600
00:34:09.519 --> 00:34:11.559
that which we value. So what you find meaningful will

601
00:34:11.559 --> 00:34:14.519
be different what I find mean because we have different values.

602
00:34:14.760 --> 00:34:17.559
I already know that you value intelligence and rationale and

603
00:34:17.599 --> 00:34:20.679
intellect I already know that. So the way that it

604
00:34:20.719 --> 00:34:23.039
breaks down is that that we have three sources of

605
00:34:23.039 --> 00:34:25.480
meaning available to us as humans through local therapy. The

606
00:34:25.480 --> 00:34:28.840
first is our creative contributions. What do we give of

607
00:34:28.840 --> 00:34:31.559
ourselves to the world that's important to us, in other words,

608
00:34:31.599 --> 00:34:34.679
that we value. I think for both of us it's

609
00:34:34.760 --> 00:34:37.400
going to be partly our authorship what we have given

610
00:34:37.440 --> 00:34:40.000
to the world in that way. The second source is

611
00:34:40.360 --> 00:34:43.000
what experiences or encounters do we take from the world

612
00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:46.599
that are valuable and meaningful to us. I call that inspiration.

613
00:34:46.760 --> 00:34:50.119
The first one I call passion. So whether it's for me,

614
00:34:50.800 --> 00:34:53.599
this conversation is meaningful to me because of the experience

615
00:34:53.639 --> 00:34:57.159
that it provides me, rights it's inspiring to me. Then

616
00:34:57.159 --> 00:35:00.599
the third source is our attitudinal stance and whatever whatever

617
00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:03.360
however we choose to respond when life throws at us

618
00:35:03.440 --> 00:35:05.559
whatever it does, and of course I call that mindset.

619
00:35:06.119 --> 00:35:08.280
So those are the three sources that are available. And

620
00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:10.519
when I'm out speaking to audiences, I help them. You

621
00:35:10.760 --> 00:35:14.480
understand that, because it's really it's the way. It's one

622
00:35:14.559 --> 00:35:18.039
way we can activate meaning in life on that personal level.

623
00:35:18.039 --> 00:35:20.639
You're talking about that. To me, I want to be

624
00:35:20.639 --> 00:35:25.079
able to offer to people who literally are oftentimes walking

625
00:35:25.079 --> 00:35:27.360
through life debt. Otherwise, I mean, I've been a cardcarry

626
00:35:27.400 --> 00:35:29.639
member of the walking debt I'm not judging anything. I

627
00:35:29.719 --> 00:35:32.440
just want to help those people, right, So could you

628
00:35:32.519 --> 00:35:37.119
comment on just your perspective on logo therapy? How what's

629
00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:38.760
your stance on that now that you've heard a bit

630
00:35:38.800 --> 00:35:39.760
more about it.

631
00:35:39.840 --> 00:35:52.599
Yes, I think it's right to say that for something

632
00:35:53.400 --> 00:35:56.440
to make our lives meaningful, it helps, and maybe it

633
00:35:56.480 --> 00:36:00.440
is essential that we find it meaningful. Got to be

634
00:36:00.559 --> 00:36:06.119
meaningful to us. That sounds That sounds right to me.

635
00:36:06.199 --> 00:36:11.280
But I'd be wary of suggesting that anything we find

636
00:36:11.440 --> 00:36:17.159
meaningful really is. So I gave you a couple of

637
00:36:17.159 --> 00:36:21.880
examples earlier, of counting blades of grass just for the

638
00:36:21.920 --> 00:36:25.079
heck of it, or walking in a circle. You know,

639
00:36:25.320 --> 00:36:27.960
perhaps somebody could find that meaningful, but if they did,

640
00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:31.480
they'd be wrong. I think perhaps better examples come from

641
00:36:31.519 --> 00:36:35.199
the Guinness Book of World Records. So there's one fellow

642
00:36:35.360 --> 00:36:43.119
who has who has achieved the feat of putting the

643
00:36:43.159 --> 00:36:48.159
most number of toothpicks in his beard. And there's another

644
00:36:48.320 --> 00:36:52.559
fellow who has typed out numbers from one to a

645
00:36:52.639 --> 00:36:57.280
million on a typewriter, and not numerically right, he's written

646
00:36:57.320 --> 00:37:01.880
out one, two and so on up to a million.

647
00:37:04.000 --> 00:37:07.679
And I suppose these two were probably fairly dedicated to

648
00:37:07.840 --> 00:37:12.440
their task, and it might well have energized them. Right

649
00:37:12.480 --> 00:37:15.039
after he slept, he's you know, he've got down to

650
00:37:15.519 --> 00:37:18.719
five hundred thousand and one and started the day and

651
00:37:19.079 --> 00:37:25.599
kept going. But you know, maybe there's some meaning there,

652
00:37:25.599 --> 00:37:28.639
but it's not as much, I want to suggest as

653
00:37:28.760 --> 00:37:33.440
other activities these folks could have undertaken. And so you know,

654
00:37:33.519 --> 00:37:35.800
other themes that we've you know, come up in our

655
00:37:35.840 --> 00:37:40.480
conversation at least, like creativity or making a contribution to others.

656
00:37:41.280 --> 00:37:46.679
Those look like important ways to orient one's life if

657
00:37:46.679 --> 00:37:50.000
one wants something meaningful. So it isn't enough to find

658
00:37:50.039 --> 00:37:54.440
an activity meaningful. It's got to be meaningful objectively, as

659
00:37:54.480 --> 00:37:59.000
we philosophers say. And then you want to find what's

660
00:37:59.079 --> 00:38:01.960
really meaningful. Meaning it's got to be meaningful to you,

661
00:38:02.840 --> 00:38:05.039
and it's got to energize you, as you put it,

662
00:38:05.840 --> 00:38:09.480
So I would, I would just tweak things, tweak things there.

663
00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:14.960
I like the suggestion that simply in our attitudes and

664
00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:17.119
the way we think about the world, or way we

665
00:38:17.239 --> 00:38:20.119
orient our mind towards the world, can be a source

666
00:38:20.360 --> 00:38:24.960
of meaning. And I know Frankle was thinking thereof having

667
00:38:25.039 --> 00:38:28.159
been in a concentration camp and not being able to

668
00:38:28.199 --> 00:38:34.920
do very much right. So I've emphasized intelligence, rationality, doing, creativity, morality,

669
00:38:34.960 --> 00:38:37.960
and there just wasn't much opportunity for those kinds of

670
00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:44.920
things where Frunkle was at times. And he suggested plausibly

671
00:38:45.079 --> 00:38:49.000
that simply your mindset can can be a source of meaning.

672
00:38:50.920 --> 00:38:55.360
And so I think, yeah, retaining a sense of self

673
00:38:55.400 --> 00:38:59.039
respect or or being aware of one's dignity in the

674
00:38:59.079 --> 00:39:02.559
face of mystery, that makes sense to me as a

675
00:39:02.599 --> 00:39:04.519
source of meaning. But I think the other thing I'd

676
00:39:04.559 --> 00:39:08.480
want to add is that it's better outside the concentration

677
00:39:08.599 --> 00:39:12.320
camp than in it when it comes to meaning. Yeah,

678
00:39:12.599 --> 00:39:15.719
it's one source, but if we really want a richly

679
00:39:15.800 --> 00:39:19.239
meaningful life, we're going to want to be able to

680
00:39:19.880 --> 00:39:23.440
engage with other people and in creative, constructive ways.

681
00:39:24.840 --> 00:39:28.320
Yeah, you really are augmenting the what the whole stance is.

682
00:39:28.360 --> 00:39:30.800
So it's it's very interesting to hear your perspective on that.

683
00:39:31.760 --> 00:39:34.079
I want to go next. If we can this is

684
00:39:34.159 --> 00:39:36.320
going to be maybe it'll be a continuation what you

685
00:39:36.360 --> 00:39:39.599
just said there. But I was really also intrigued with

686
00:39:39.719 --> 00:39:43.599
this idea that you have in the book that alread anyway,

687
00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:46.880
Meaning is encapsulated in the good, the true, and the beautiful.

688
00:39:47.800 --> 00:39:48.800
Can you say more about that?

689
00:39:49.599 --> 00:39:54.639
Yeah? So, in my first book titled Meaning in Life,

690
00:39:54.639 --> 00:39:59.599
an Analytics Study, I really poured over what English speaking

691
00:39:59.599 --> 00:40:03.519
for law mainly have had to say about meaning over

692
00:40:03.559 --> 00:40:07.719
the past hundred years, and I kept noticing this cluster

693
00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:10.599
of the good, the true, and the beautiful. And sometimes

694
00:40:10.599 --> 00:40:13.760
it was explicit, sometimes the philosopher would use those words.

695
00:40:14.320 --> 00:40:17.119
Other times it was implicit with the kinds of examples

696
00:40:17.159 --> 00:40:20.280
they would use. They would give examples like Einstein or

697
00:40:20.280 --> 00:40:27.719
Mother Teresa, or Coltrane or artists. And so a lot

698
00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:33.280
of the field thinks that meaning is at least centrally

699
00:40:33.320 --> 00:40:38.400
located in these three kinds of activities. And so by

700
00:40:38.599 --> 00:40:42.199
the good they mean beneficence or acting acting in a

701
00:40:42.199 --> 00:40:45.679
way that makes others better off. And so that would

702
00:40:45.760 --> 00:40:50.079
involve being part of a family, or having friends, or

703
00:40:50.119 --> 00:40:54.239
working for charity or advancing justice. And that's what the

704
00:40:54.280 --> 00:41:00.159
good is supposed to signify. And then the true is

705
00:41:00.159 --> 00:41:03.320
is intellect as you phrased it earlier. So it could

706
00:41:03.400 --> 00:41:05.679
be a matter of getting a formal education, but it

707
00:41:05.679 --> 00:41:07.559
doesn't have to be. It could be a matter of

708
00:41:07.599 --> 00:41:11.480
being wise or coming to know yourself could also be

709
00:41:11.519 --> 00:41:14.679
an instruence of the true and as opposed to being,

710
00:41:14.800 --> 00:41:20.880
you know, deceiving yourself the true of the good and

711
00:41:20.920 --> 00:41:24.599
the beautiful, and that is a matter of creativity. And

712
00:41:24.679 --> 00:41:27.519
there we could be talking about the arts, and that's

713
00:41:27.559 --> 00:41:30.559
the first thing that comes to mind, But it could

714
00:41:30.639 --> 00:41:33.199
also just be a matter of being a good gardener,

715
00:41:34.719 --> 00:41:38.239
or it could be the beautiful could be realized in

716
00:41:38.320 --> 00:41:42.519
one style of clothing, or even in one's humor. Humor

717
00:41:42.519 --> 00:41:47.599
can be creative as well. So I don't think all

718
00:41:47.760 --> 00:41:50.679
meaning is a function of the good, the true, and

719
00:41:50.760 --> 00:41:54.960
the beautiful. And I think I think I can find exceptions.

720
00:41:55.000 --> 00:42:00.519
So if I, as a person overcomes an addiction or

721
00:42:00.559 --> 00:42:04.760
a personality disorder, that doesn't look like it's a matter

722
00:42:04.920 --> 00:42:07.079
of the good, the true, or the beautiful. Right, I'm

723
00:42:07.079 --> 00:42:11.199
not helping other people, I'm not doing anything particularly creative.

724
00:42:12.320 --> 00:42:18.639
Intellect doesn't seem involved in the first instance anyway, but

725
00:42:18.679 --> 00:42:21.320
it would be meaningful, I think, to overcome an addiction.

726
00:42:22.599 --> 00:42:25.360
So I don't think everything about meaning is a matter

727
00:42:25.400 --> 00:42:27.079
of the good, the true, and the beautiful. But it

728
00:42:27.159 --> 00:42:30.440
really that triad captures an awful lot of what we

729
00:42:30.559 --> 00:42:33.519
have in it does it does?

730
00:42:34.119 --> 00:42:37.480
It's beautiful one of the other things that's coming to me,

731
00:42:37.519 --> 00:42:39.679
and it is the next question I wanted to talk

732
00:42:39.679 --> 00:42:41.920
to you about anyway. But it's really this notion I'm

733
00:42:41.960 --> 00:42:44.440
getting more and more present too. It seems like the

734
00:42:44.480 --> 00:42:47.440
more you know, it's almost like the effort, right, the

735
00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:50.360
more we have to work for something, the more meaningful

736
00:42:50.360 --> 00:42:55.239
it could be. And so right, there's if it comes easy,

737
00:42:55.239 --> 00:42:57.719
maybe it wouldn't be that meaningful. But I couldn't help

738
00:42:57.760 --> 00:43:00.599
noticing in your work that you do. You talk a

739
00:43:00.599 --> 00:43:03.320
lot about like Mandela Nelson. Mandela is somebody that I

740
00:43:03.360 --> 00:43:07.039
really greatly admire. Of course Einstein, but you it seems

741
00:43:07.039 --> 00:43:09.559
that you imply that the more impact one has, the

742
00:43:09.559 --> 00:43:12.599
more meaningful their life is. Is that fair?

743
00:43:14.559 --> 00:43:17.320
I think that's true. So I think both both are

744
00:43:17.760 --> 00:43:21.800
Both conditions are relevant. So we want to make as

745
00:43:21.880 --> 00:43:25.559
much of an impact as we can, and the more

746
00:43:25.559 --> 00:43:30.000
effort it takes, the more meaning as well. And I

747
00:43:30.039 --> 00:43:36.639
think Mendela encapsulates those both tremendously. Right, So, twenty seven

748
00:43:36.760 --> 00:43:45.039
years in jail but eventually frees an entire country from

749
00:43:45.239 --> 00:43:50.760
a racist dictatorship and becomes the country's first democratically elected president.

750
00:43:51.599 --> 00:43:54.679
You know that's those are impressive outcomes, and it took

751
00:43:55.119 --> 00:43:59.639
a heck of a lot of work, and we want both.

752
00:44:00.360 --> 00:44:02.280
So we don't want to make a lot of effort

753
00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:06.440
without having impact. And I also think that we're not

754
00:44:06.519 --> 00:44:08.320
going to find a lot of meaning if we make

755
00:44:08.360 --> 00:44:11.639
a great impact with little effort. And if I go

756
00:44:11.719 --> 00:44:15.199
back to Robert Nozick, the philosopher who came up with

757
00:44:15.239 --> 00:44:18.360
the thought experiment of the experience machine, he's got another

758
00:44:18.400 --> 00:44:21.800
thought experiment, which he calls the result machine. And it's

759
00:44:21.800 --> 00:44:25.000
a hypothetical device, and you press a button, and you

760
00:44:25.079 --> 00:44:28.920
can do anything to change society. You get any results

761
00:44:28.960 --> 00:44:33.320
you want just by pressing a button. And he suggests, yeah,

762
00:44:33.320 --> 00:44:36.559
maybe you press the button, But is your life going

763
00:44:36.639 --> 00:44:38.920
to have a lot of meaning as a result of

764
00:44:38.960 --> 00:44:41.800
pressing the button. Not nearly as much as if you

765
00:44:42.000 --> 00:44:45.800
had really had to make some kind of effort and

766
00:44:45.880 --> 00:44:49.480
sacrifice to get the same outcome. And so it's another

767
00:44:49.599 --> 00:44:53.119
useful thought experiment when thinking about what makes our lives meaningful,

768
00:44:53.159 --> 00:44:55.920
it does look like it's a matter of both effort

769
00:44:55.960 --> 00:44:57.519
and impact, not just one.

770
00:45:00.559 --> 00:45:04.480
A very very interesting discovery for me too, And one

771
00:45:04.480 --> 00:45:06.400
of the other things that I want to finish here

772
00:45:06.400 --> 00:45:09.239
with that. I found so so fascinating about your work

773
00:45:09.599 --> 00:45:13.400
that in particular is you've studied various faiths from around

774
00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:16.719
the world, not just stereo Christian, Islamic, et cetera, but

775
00:45:16.800 --> 00:45:20.239
just really throughout the world. And what I appreciate again

776
00:45:20.239 --> 00:45:22.639
about your your style of debate you know in the book,

777
00:45:22.760 --> 00:45:24.760
is you know, the idea of the role of God.

778
00:45:24.760 --> 00:45:27.599
In your discussion with Secris about meaning, it was interesting.

779
00:45:27.639 --> 00:45:30.679
I did find myself wondering something similar as you as

780
00:45:30.719 --> 00:45:33.800
you as you stated in one of the passages, you say,

781
00:45:33.800 --> 00:45:38.480
when Professor Secres speaks of the discrepancy between central longings

782
00:45:38.480 --> 00:45:40.880
of the human heart and the world devoid of God

783
00:45:41.039 --> 00:45:44.199
and afterlife, it is not the human heart as such

784
00:45:44.280 --> 00:45:48.599
that that has these longings, but rather his heart, along

785
00:45:48.639 --> 00:45:51.320
with many others in the West. I think that's a

786
00:45:51.360 --> 00:45:53.960
really really important concept. You know, we tend it's hard

787
00:45:54.039 --> 00:45:56.840
some time to take ourselves out of the equation. Can

788
00:45:56.880 --> 00:45:58.719
you comment and say a little bit more about how that's

789
00:45:58.760 --> 00:46:01.000
distinguished between the two of you and your perspectives.

790
00:46:01.599 --> 00:46:05.719
Yeah, so, Josh, Professor Seacrest really longs for a world

791
00:46:05.840 --> 00:46:09.519
with God and a soul. Yeah, I got that. I mean,

792
00:46:09.559 --> 00:46:12.599
I think, yeah, some important part of him would be

793
00:46:12.679 --> 00:46:16.719
extremely disappointed to learn that there weren't the world didn't

794
00:46:16.719 --> 00:46:22.000
include those things. And I you know, at certain points

795
00:46:22.039 --> 00:46:25.039
in our debate, I think he thinks, well, all humans

796
00:46:25.280 --> 00:46:30.280
want that, Dan, Yeah, And it is a tempting thought.

797
00:46:30.360 --> 00:46:32.599
If that's your culture, if you're reared, or you just

798
00:46:32.679 --> 00:46:35.440
you've lived only in a Christian culture, that's probably what

799
00:46:35.480 --> 00:46:39.800
you're you know, you're going to be inclined to think that. Yeah.

800
00:46:39.840 --> 00:46:42.639
I've lived outside the United States for more than twenty

801
00:46:42.679 --> 00:46:47.559
five years and have been exposed to lots of different

802
00:46:47.880 --> 00:46:51.880
cultures and religions as a result, and so I'm aware

803
00:46:51.920 --> 00:46:57.079
of some religions and some world views that don't include

804
00:46:57.320 --> 00:47:01.960
notions of God or a soul, and that have literally

805
00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:06.159
billions of adherents. So we've got Confucianism in East Asia,

806
00:47:07.199 --> 00:47:10.199
where there's really no appeal to God or an afterlife

807
00:47:10.199 --> 00:47:15.000
at all. It's quite a this worldly religion. God doesn't

808
00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:19.920
feature in Buddhism either, and Hinduism does feature a God,

809
00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:22.519
but that God isn't a person. It's not a self

810
00:47:22.519 --> 00:47:25.840
aware agent. It's an unconscious force, which is quite different

811
00:47:25.920 --> 00:47:32.440
from you know, the typical Christian understanding of God. And

812
00:47:32.480 --> 00:47:36.039
so we've got billions of people who believe Confucianism, Buddhism,

813
00:47:36.800 --> 00:47:41.679
or Hinduism, and they don't have the deep hankering for

814
00:47:43.039 --> 00:47:46.599
an Abrahamic God or a soul as my colleague does.

815
00:47:48.360 --> 00:47:50.840
And so that that that, you know, that requires a

816
00:47:50.840 --> 00:47:52.840
certain kind of perspective we have to. You know, I

817
00:47:52.840 --> 00:47:56.079
don't think we can dismiss billions of people who've had

818
00:47:56.400 --> 00:47:59.400
you know, I haven't had these desires in the way

819
00:47:59.440 --> 00:48:05.639
my colleague has. And it does lead me to think

820
00:48:07.159 --> 00:48:10.320
not that we have to be pluralists necessarily about religion,

821
00:48:10.360 --> 00:48:13.000
but that we need to be I don't know, respectful

822
00:48:13.280 --> 00:48:17.280
and give consideration to other longstanding traditions when we're debating

823
00:48:17.320 --> 00:48:18.199
these things.

824
00:48:18.840 --> 00:48:22.440
I very much agree with that. Well, we've already gotten

825
00:48:22.440 --> 00:48:24.079
to the end of the show. Already it goes by

826
00:48:24.119 --> 00:48:26.519
so fast that you know that the show by people

827
00:48:26.559 --> 00:48:28.760
around the world who are interested, of course, in being

828
00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:30.880
able to develop more meaning in their lives and their work,

829
00:48:31.239 --> 00:48:32.880
and want to be part of organizations that are doing

830
00:48:32.920 --> 00:48:35.159
something that is better in the world. What would you

831
00:48:35.199 --> 00:48:36.159
like to leave them with today?

832
00:48:37.960 --> 00:48:40.639
I guess I'd reflect on what we've done for the

833
00:48:40.679 --> 00:48:46.920
past forty eight minutes or so. It's sometimes said that meaning,

834
00:48:47.480 --> 00:48:50.480
the meaning of life lies in the search for it,

835
00:48:51.400 --> 00:48:53.840
and I don't think that's the full story. We've talked

836
00:48:53.840 --> 00:48:56.480
about lots of other ways to make our lives meaningful

837
00:48:56.559 --> 00:49:00.239
besides searching for meaning, but I think it's probably really

838
00:49:00.239 --> 00:49:03.239
true that one way to make our lives meaningful is

839
00:49:03.760 --> 00:49:06.880
to search for it. And what we've done is to

840
00:49:06.920 --> 00:49:11.360
exercise our intellect together in a constructive way in search

841
00:49:11.400 --> 00:49:15.320
of the truth. And I've really, you know, I've found

842
00:49:15.320 --> 00:49:18.880
it meaningful and I'm grateful to you for the opportunity

843
00:49:18.920 --> 00:49:19.719
to engage.

844
00:49:20.159 --> 00:49:22.119
Thank you, Thad. It's really a delight to know you.

845
00:49:22.199 --> 00:49:24.280
As I say, you really provoked a lot of thinking

846
00:49:24.320 --> 00:49:26.920
and questions for myself, and I thank you very much

847
00:49:26.920 --> 00:49:29.679
for your work, for stuarding, helping to really steward and

848
00:49:29.760 --> 00:49:32.639
establish this field, and for coming on the show. Thanks

849
00:49:32.639 --> 00:49:33.760
for being on working on purpose.

850
00:49:34.679 --> 00:49:36.239
Thanks again, my pleasure.

851
00:49:36.840 --> 00:49:38.639
Listeners and viewers. If you want to learn more about

852
00:49:38.679 --> 00:49:41.480
Professor Thaddius Metz, the work he is doing in the

853
00:49:41.519 --> 00:49:44.519
field of meaning in life, or his various articles or books,

854
00:49:44.559 --> 00:49:46.320
the probably the best way to start that would be

855
00:49:46.360 --> 00:49:48.320
to find him on LinkedIn. You can find him and

856
00:49:48.360 --> 00:49:51.840
listed under his full name, It's Thaddeus E H A D.

857
00:49:52.079 --> 00:49:56.760
D e Us Mets Thaddius Mets. See you next week

858
00:49:56.760 --> 00:49:59.280
for another nourishing and inspiring a conversation on working on

859
00:49:59.320 --> 00:50:01.599
purpose and er work is one of the best adventures

860
00:50:01.599 --> 00:50:03.960
and means of realizing our potential and making the impact

861
00:50:03.960 --> 00:50:06.400
We crave and can give us the opportunity to do

862
00:50:06.440 --> 00:50:08.760
business in a way that betters the world. So let's

863
00:50:08.760 --> 00:50:09.519
work on Purpose.

864
00:50:12.599 --> 00:50:15.239
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to

865
00:50:15.280 --> 00:50:18.920
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes,

866
00:50:19.079 --> 00:50:22.360
each week on W four CY. Together we'll create a

867
00:50:22.400 --> 00:50:27.039
world where business operates conscientiously, Leadership inspires and passion performance,

868
00:50:27.119 --> 00:50:29.880
and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning

869
00:50:29.920 --> 00:50:33.719
and purpose they crave. See you there, Let's work on Purpose.