In a Meaning-Obsessed World, What Does “Meaning” Really Mean?

0:00 The topics and opinions express in the following show are solely those of the hosts and their guests and not those of W FOURCY Radio. It's employees are affiliates. We make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show programs, services, or products mentioned on air or on our web. No liability explicit or implies shall be extended to W FOURCY Radio or its employees are affiliates. Any questions or comments should be directed to those show hosts. Thank you for choosing W FOURCY Radio. What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their highest potential. Business can be such a force for good in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we all want Working on Purpose. Now, here's your host, Doctor Relise Cortes.

1:04 Welcome back to the Working on Purpose program, which has been brought to you with passion and pride since February of twenty fifteen. Thanks for tuning again this week. Great to have you. I'm your host, doctor Alas Cortes. If we have not met before and you don't know me, I'm an organizational psychologist and management consultant, logo therapists, speaker and author. My team and I at Gusta Now help companies to enligen and fortify their operations by building a dynamic, high performance culture and inspirational leadership activated by meaning and purpose. And did you know that inspired employees outperform their satisfied peers by a factor of two point twenty five to one. In other words, inspiration is good for the bottom line. You can learn more about us and how we can work together at gusto dashnow dot com or my personal site at least Cortes dot com. Getting into today's program we have with us today Doctor Thadius Metz, who has established himself for having helped to develop life's meaning as a distinct field of Anglo American philosophy and currently serves as a research professor at the University of Pretoria in South Africa. He is a prolific author, having published more than three hundred professional books, chapters and articles which include such as Meaning in Life and Analytics, Study God's Soul and the Meaning of Life and what makes life meaningful?

2:10 A debate. He joined it today from pretorious, South Africa. Professor Metz Welcome to Working on Purpose. Hi, thanks for having me at least. It's wonderful to have you. I terribly enjoyed this book. I read it cover to cover as I always do, and a couple of the other things that you sent me as well. So I really applaud your work. And as I told you before we got on air, I went down the rabbit hole, and I mean, you really got me thinking about something. So I really appreciate your work. Oh that's hardening, glad to hear it. Yeah, so at least you've got at least one fan, we know that, right, terrific. I want to start with something that I think is pretty profound. Even the way you open the book, it's you know, you've situated the book as a debate between you and Professor Joshua Secris.

2:54 And what I love about it that is, I love that it's one It's there's a playful banter, but there's a respect for banter. And what I also want to just call out, here is just how you really, you know, you you're showing us, you're modeling for us how to have a productive or respectful debate where you can completely disagree with each other on tremendous grounds, but then, as you say, afterwards, but then go have a beer together afterwards. I think that's the world we need right now, if you could please help us with that. That, Yeah, I think that's a that's a model, and it's a kind of meaningful engagement. I actually think you mentioned two things, a dialogue on the one hand, and searching for truth together in some kind of constructive way.

3:39 And I think I don't think that's you know, I don't think meaning in life is completely a matter of those things. But when they're absent, we notice and there's something missing. And we see this in some of the images that philosophers use to capture a meaningless life. So Robert knowsick about fifty years ago he was a Harvard philosopher lecturer there and he imagined that there was an what he called an experienced machine, and you didn't have it's basically a virtual reality device, that's what we would call it these days. But there was no such thing fifty years ago, and he imagined that you could get into this device and it would simulate various activities, so you would think you're writing the great American novel, or suppose you're having a great romance, but you're not actually there doing that. You're fooled by the machine. And he came up with this thought experiment to suggest that while a life might be happy in such a machine, it would be missing some meaning. And part of the reason, he thinks, is that we would be isolated from each other.

4:45 We would just be alone with the technology on the one hand, but we would also be deceived on the other We wouldn't be in touch with the truth. And so it looks like for many of us doing philosophy, meaning comes from coming together and in search of truths. That's part of what's going on in a meaningful life. It's really beautiful. I think it's important for us to distinguish. I mean, I think really anybody who's listening listening to us talk on this program today, certainly you can go a day without hearing two words meaning and purpose. But the way that you, both you and Professor Seacrest talk about meaning, So there's the meaning in life, which is the personal part of it, and then there's a meaning of light that's the cosmic part of things. So if you could distinguish a little bit for our listeners and viewers between those two very very distinct realms, there.

5:35 Are really two questions here, two different questions. One is which life do we want to inquire about? Is it the life of an individual such as my life? Do I want to know whether my life is meaningful or how it is meaningful? That's one sort of question, you know, distinguishing between whether I want to know whether it's my life or whether it's the life of the human race or life anywhere to be found in the universe. That's one question, whose life are we interested in? But the second question is, given a choice of which life to evaluate, how do we appraise it? Do we appraise it from a sort of human point of view or do we take a very big cosmicpective, perhaps a god's eye point of view, and ask about the impact of that life on not merely those on earth, but potentially the universe as a whole. Most philosophers of life's meaning these days focus on the individual as opposed to the meaning of the human race. As a whole. And furthermore, when they evaluate the life of an individual, they tend to do it in terms from a human point of view, and so many of us treat the category of meaning in life as similar to inquiry into what makes a life happy or when is a body health? Those are about an individual, and they're not cosmic questions. They are questions about a life here on earth. And many of us

7:07 think that when we're talking about meaning in life, we're talking about mainly something that's similar, a kind of value that's similar to happiness or health. And I think part of the reason for that is that when we get into cosmic questions, if we ask about what the point of humanity is, or if we ask about whether the human race has some role to play in the whole universe, it's hard to avoid invoking God as understood in the Abrahamic faiths. And relatively few professional philosophers claim to know that God exists. They might believe on faith, okay, but philosophers, you know, by definition, we're looking for evidence. We're looking for good reasons to believe one thing rather than another.

7:52 And relatively few professional philosophers think we have a very solid case in terms of evidence that God exists, and so that's led many of us to focus on uh less cosmic questions, more earthly ones. So delightful that so wonderful to me too. And I think I remember which which book it was that I read about you, But I read a book every single week for my podcast. But so glad I found you, and so glad that you said yes, I'll come on your podcast with you very just chewy questions. So, given just how much there is to consider around just meaning, and I'm going to layer some information around that, or at least my perspective here in just a second. Now, let's let's just contrast that with purpose. How would you distinguish meaning from purpose?

8:41 I think a lot of meaning in life is a matter of achieving a purpose. If I look at my life, I'm striving to teach my students something, i want to make a difference to my field. I want to rear my children with love and wisdom. I want my marriage to be strong, happy and so. And those are intuitively sources of meaning for me, where if I were able to achieve those purposes. But I think there can be ways of a life being meaningful that don't involve striving to achieve a goal. And I think one example, might hear a few examples. I think, if I love other people, I'm achieving a kind of purpose of my own. But if others love me, might not involve any goal directed activity on my part. Right, there's no striving on my part.

9:39 It's something I receive. Or if I think of the life of Vincent van Go and I think of the recognition he received after he had died, you know, after he died, we suppose there wasn't any activity, There wasn't any striving to achieve a goal, but the influence of his art and the recognition he receive eat for it probably made his life, for his existence more meaningful. I think as well, just simply living in certain environments can make our lives more important. So if if you live in a beautiful place, perhaps there's there's nature or really intricate old architecture, I think a life can be more important for being in that environment, as opposed to just being in a place with blocks of prefabricated apartments something like that, you know, sort of standardized, standardized flats, and that again doesn't evolve striving to achieve a purpose. So I think a chunk of meaning consists of achieving purpose.

10:44 But we can but meaning can sometimes come to us passively. We can be recipients of love or recognition, or we can just be in a setting that we didn't create ourselves, but we're lucky enough to be there. So I'll comment on a couple of things there. One is so from my vantage point as a as a logo therapist, and we can talk about that next or whatever, but but definitely want to situate it because that's really my it's my chief way of really understanding or embracing the world of meaning. You know, that's the doctor Pritt Frankel's work, of course, and and so you know, the way it's situated in logo logo therapy or logo philosophy is that meaning is really it's our chief concern and it's our chief source of energy. So how I distinguish meaning and purpose is meaning is our is our energy source, and purpose is the directionality, if you will, a where we're aiming, if you will, our passions and our and our and our energies. So that's how I like to I like to situate it. Do you know anything about logo therapy or.

11:45 I read from long ago, and I sort of have a broad sense of the basics. Sure, you know, from my own view, I think achieving the purpose is often meaningful. It's got to be the right purpose. Can't just be any ye, right. If the p is to just count blades of grass or walk in a circle consistently and there's no sort of valuable output, it's not meaningful. It doesn't make one's life more important. There's got to be something more to the purpose. Yeah, And that's where this is so interesting that I mean, I really got interested in the world of meaning and purpose in my mid twenties when I was then at that time living with my boyfriend, first in Spain and then in Brazil for a total of about three years.

12:29 An amazing life, you know, a really really beautiful, opulent life, living made chauffeur, a gardener, the whole thing. And what I discovered, though was the emptiness of that. And that's when I discovered that we as humans are you know, we're best when we're needed. And you talk about that too in your book, and that's of course the self transcendence part of things. And so you know, what I talk about in my work is purpose is always about serving something beyond yourself. And so you know, the counting the blades of graphs, etcetera. Really isn't helping someone out or something else. So therefore wouldn't really qualify for you know, for a purpose either. But anyway, so that's just where it came from for me, as I discovered just how empty it is when you really aren't being of service, you're not being needed.

13:11 Yeah, I think that's true. And a lot of that comes down to activity doing something. So if I go back to the experience machine thought experiment, there isn't and there isn't an agent, There isn't an actor fulfilling a purpose. It's another problem with a life in that sort of thing. And again, it can be very happy to passively receive pleasure, let's suppose, and it sounds like you lived a very pleasant life when they did. But yeah, eating typically comes from doing and as you said, contributing to something beyond oneself. Typically. I love the phrase that I that I've used. I don't remember where I came up with it. Oh, I know I borrowed it wild alife scratching. It's you know, I do this and the way organizations help them to wild a life scratch for their purpose to articulate that.

14:00 But now I can tell you where that where that phrase came from. It's doctor Seuss. Oh, yes, they're very wise, doctor Seuss. The other the other thing I wanted to comment on that that I really appreciated in your work, and you just sort of hinted at it just now, is this is something that I had discovered myself some time ago, you know, as a you know, a very very very very amateur philosopher, is that it is more impactful, more meaningful, more uh yummy, if you will to be the one who loves versus just being the one who receives love. There's there's that passive piece that you're talking about. There's something I've always found it so much more fulfilling to be to love someone else than it is just to be loved.

14:43 I think so too, so I you know, I have colleagues who think it's very important to be loved, whether by God on the one hand, or I have also colleagues who think that animals can live meaningful lives if they're loved by humans. And I guess I don't want to deny that it would be nice for there to be a God that loves me. Sure, I'll take that. And I look at my pets and I suppose, Okay, perhaps their lives are a bit more meaningful than strays don't have a family. But you know, if I really want a substantially meaningful life, I'm not going to remain passive. I'm not going to be a mayor recipient. Right. So if I imagine somebody who is widely adored but doesn't adore anyone himself, or is cared for by lots of people but never cares for anybody else, that's not very attractive. Yeah, And it suggests that insofar as love is going to make our lives meaningful, it's important to be the one loving.

15:45 Completely agree with that. And on that note, let's grab our first break and let our listeners and viewers reflect on just who it is that they love and who they can love a bit more. I'm your host, doctor Lee Cortez. We run the air with Professor of Dadius Metz, a research professor at the University of Pretoria in South Africa. We've been talking a bit about distinguishing meaning in life and meaning of life, among other things. After the break, we're going to continue the conversation and go a little bit deeper into naturalist in supernaturalist thought. I'll be right back.

16:26 Doctor Elise Cortez is a management consultant specializing in meaning and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author. She helps companies visioneer for a greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite a lease to speak to your organization, please visit her at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Elise alisee at eliscortes dot com. Now back to working on purpose.

17:19 Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to working on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Relise Cortes, as I am dedicated to helping create a world where people realize their potential at work and are led by inspirational leaders that help them find and contribute their greatness and to business that betters the world. I keep researching and writing my own books. So one of my latest came out. It's called a Great Revitalization, How activating meaning and purpose can radically enliven your business. And I wrote it to help leaders understand the lay of today's workforce land what do they want to need to give their best and want to stay with you? And then I provide twenty two best practices to help you create a culture that will provide that for them. You can find my books on Amazon or my personal site at least Coortes dot com if you are just now joining us. My guest is Professor Thautius Metz, the author of numerous articles and books, including Meaning in Life and analytic study, God, Soul and the Meaning of Life and what makes Life Meaningful Debate.

18:08 So before we get into I want to hear, of course, about your position on meaning and in life and meaning of life. But before we do that, if you could do that, I know in your book you talk about four distinct cancers, the natural, supernaturalists and a couple that I forgot. Would you distinguish those for our listeners and viewers. First, I think the most important distinction amongst philosophers is between naturalism. On the one hand, and supernaturalism on the other. And the naturalist is somebody who thinks that we could, in principle have a fully meaningful life purely in a natural world, purely in a world where there isn't a spiritual realm, no supernatural realms. We suppose that God and the soul, no angels, they don't exist. And the naturalist maintains if the world is like that, if we just are in a physical world, our lives could be meaningful.

19:06 To supernaturalist denies. That supernaturalist says, nope, we need some kind of spiritual condition God or a soul. At least in the Abrahamic and Western tradition, those feature centrally, those have to exist. At least the bulk of meaning in our lives is going to come only from those kinds of those kinds of beings. And the grand debate in the Western tradition amongst philosophers over the past two hundred years or so has been between naturalism on the one hand and supernaturalism on the other. And I myself plunk for the naturalist view. And that's because I imagine sort of exemplars of really meaningful lives. So I imagine the life of Albert Einstein, or Mother Teresa or John Coltrane, and I look at their accomplishments and I think to myself, Gosh, even if there's no God, even if these three individuals have not survived the death of their body, they don't have a soul. They're dead and gone. Still they had meaningful lives. There was much more meaning in them compared to other lives that existed at the time, for example.

20:29 And that suggests to me that it's not essential to have a spiritual realm in order to have a meaningful life. If it's going to play a role in making life meaningful, it's going to be a nice bonus. It's going to be something extra. Maybe we'll live longer, maybe we'll be in touch with a carrying creator. I'm happy to think those would be sources of meaning life. I just don't think they're essential to have meaning in our lives. I tend to see something similar what I've come what I've come to in my own life is I would probably be considered more of a naturalist when it comes to meaning in life, certainly, although I think what I've come to is I think there is probably some there is some kind of you know there's intelligent design to this whole, this whole thing, and that's I don't feel the need to really go much further than I just trust that, judge. I trust the process. But I did find it really fascinating to listen or to as I should say, read the debate between you and Professor Secrest, because he's a supernaturalist, right right, So just fascinating that you could have that conversation. So now at that point, now if you could situate for us your position on meaning, right.

21:40 So, I think it would be frightfully nice if we had God or a soul at our disposal to make our lives more meaningful. But I just you know, even if they don't exist, still some meaning as possible. And where would it come from? And at the core of my proposal is that it comes from our rational or the exercise of our intelligence. So if I look at Einstein, mother Teresa, John Coltrane, if I go back to the other examples we've discussed of making a contribution to others or achieving a purpose, and what those seem to have in common are roughly doing things that animals can't do, at least not nearly as well. There's something higher about human persons, and philosophers tend to call it rationality. Psychologists will tend to call it intelligence. But there's something about deliberating, carefully, being thoughtful, planning, empathizing, being aware of oneself, that cluster of traits that, when we use them in the right sort of way, is a source of meaning. And if I go back to the other cases we've discussed so far, lee's about where meaning is absent. So it's absent from the experience machine, and it's it's it's absent from merely walking around in a circle. Uh, it's absent from merely, you know, receiving pleasure. Uh. What's what seems to be

23:13 missing is the activity. It seems to be the absence of intelligent behavior on our part. So the way I argue is to say, well, intuitively these things are meaningful, and intuitively these things are not. And then I look for what the difference is between them, and my suggestion is it's our rational nature being exercised or not. It's fascinating, and it's really fascinating. I further went on and when it when it came to the kinds of things, I think, if I have this right, but these are I'm attributing it correctly to you and not to Professor Secres. The collection of things such as meriting pride, transcending one's animal self, acting on reasons of love, making a contribution, connecting with something great, authorughing an interesting life, finding the world to make sense? Are those yours?

24:03 Are? They are my suggestions, but they're meant to be neutral. They're meant to be, in fact, common ground between naturalists on the one hand and supernaturalists on the other. Okay, so two different questions when philosophers think about meaning in life. One is what makes our life meaningful or what would make it meaningful on the one hand, And then on the other hand, we pause and sometimes ask, what are we talking about? If we're talking about meaning, what do we have in mind that makes it different from talking about happiness or health or morality? And the list of features you just mentioned, such as making a contribution, or doing something that merits pride or admiration, or acting out of love. My suggestion is naturalists and supernaturalists can agree that that's what we're talking about. When we're debating about what makes life meaningful, we're figuring out what would make our lives worthy of pride or admiration. What would give them a good uh story to tell? What would it be to make a real contribution? And as I understand it, the religious folks say, well, those things are going to come from God roughly, and the naturalist says maybe in part, but we could do it without God. If we have to.

25:24 Thank you for that. That was just there. There was a lot that I could I could certainly connect with on that whole list from for me, of course make complete sense. I was. I'm in alignment without it for sure. There's I don't see. I don't know how you could argue against that list personally, But I do want to go a little bit deeper into your particular stance about the intelligence is being such an important construct in and it is how it is that we experience meaning in life. And then I want to comment on a couple of things that that are that I would love to hear your perspective on that came from my from my work. Why don't you go ahead and tell me what how it might can with you. Okay, So one thing that I found really interesting, Yeah, you should be having a beer and not water.

26:08 It's five o'clock in your time. So anyway, so one thing that was for me, I've had this fascination that for years. I guess it started when I lived in Rio, as I mentioned, and when I did my PhD in Human development, I studied the relation between meaning and work and identity. I wanted to understand how people experienced meaning in their work and how do they relate it to their sense of self. So I did that research, and then later I did a bit much bigger postdoc research, and this time I really wanted to understand, you know, really the kinds of meaning that they were talking about. And as I did these one hundred and fifteen interviews hundred and fifteen m what I discovered was as people talked about what was meaningful in their work, I could code it against like Maslow's hierarchy of needs. And what I discovered when I did that that when I just when I started coding for the kinds of meaning people were talking about. You know, it's one thing to say I make a lot of money and I have this big house. That's more the security level down here where people say things like I'm really proud of my work, or I feel like I get to live my highest values by doing my work or you know, I live by my purpose or whatever.

27:12 It is. What I discovered, which kind of aligns with what you're talking about with regard to the power of intelligence to drive meaning. Is that, generally speaking or not even speaking in terms of my study, what I discovered was the more frequently people experienced the higher kinds of meaning available in Maswow's hierarchy, the more meaningful they found their work, and generally, the more important it was for their sense of identity. That's what I discovered. So that's what kind of made me really want to pay attention to and hear more about why you were so because it wasn't just the intellect, because it was also the creativity, which comes of course maybe from intellect as well. But that's what I discovered. That makes a lot of sense to me.

27:57 So if I recall what Aslo says about self actualization the highest need, it's a matter roughly of realizing your talents. Right, you bring aspect yourself together to be creative or to solve problems, or to achieve something morally, and you do it moreover, in the light of a clear perception of reality. That's also important for him. And each one of those things looks to me like a kind of intelligence. So to have a clear apprehension of reality is to know something that is an exercise of the intellect. In a more narrow sense, to be creative, to solve problems, to make some kind of moral achievement. Again, all of these involve rationality or intelligence. They're different kinds of intelligence that psychologists distinguish between. It's not all just IQ.

28:52 So I think emotional intelligence or esthetic intelligence are also important sources of meaning, and those can also be in play in the work. Yeah, and as the count sources of self actualization, that's. What I found as well. So they're variou skins. So today, what I've kind of come to that is I think I've really become quite obsessed with the idea of consciousness and what i'm what i'm and for me, that is maybe a way too. It's a container for various kinds of intelligences. Maybe that's what I've kind of come to. Could you comment on that with your perspective or your stance on consciousness. Yeah, so it depends how we define our terms. But if we say consciousness is a matter of simply an awareness awareness of something, so awareness of the pain, or one can see light. I mean those are sort of more basic, rudimentary forms. I think meaning requires consciousness, but I think it requires a special kind, which I would call self consciousness or self awareness. So if you're if we're talking about self consciousness, we're talking about being aware of oneself as a self distinct from other parts of the world and other selves. And it looks like we human persons have that in a very to a very rich extent, right, And it looks like animals, or at least lower animals, don't have that. I just don't think my cat is aware of itself. It's aware of food,

30:22 and it's aware of warmth, but it's not aware of itself. It doesn't think in terms of an eye, and it isn't able to step back and say, you know, ask, you know, should I do this? Or I want this? But should I pursue? You know, should I do what I want? We humans are clearly able to do that systematically, and I think that's at the root of our rationality. It's what enables us to act for good reasons, to step back and say, should I do this? Do I have a good reason to do this? And if I'm going to do it. How am I going to achieve achieve this goal? And so if it were just consciousness that were enough for a meaningful life, then then my cash would have every bit as meaningful a life as I do. But I just don't think that. I don't think his life is meaningless. But I don't. But I think the human's got a lot more going for it when it comes to being able to live meaningfully. And I think ultimately that's because we can be aware of ourselves and step back and act for good reasons as opposed to bad ones.

31:29 I appreciate how crispy you are that this is a delicious conversation. Let's let's grub our last break. I'm your host, doctor Relie's Cortes. We've been on air with Professor Daddius Metz, a research professor at the University of Buttory in South Africa. We've been having a most chewy conversation. Will continue when we come back after the break. We'll be right back. Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Elise alisee at elisecortes dot com. Now back to working on Purpose.

32:53 Thanks for sting with us, and welcome back to Working on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes. I mentioned in the last break that my book came out, The Great Revitalization. What I did for you is I created a simple three page assessment that you can pull off my website. It will help you understand the extent to which your organization is meeting the needs of today's discerning workforce. You can find it at gustodashnow dot com. If you are just now joining us. My guest is Professor Thadius Metz. He's the author of numerous articles and books, including Meaning in Life and Analytics, Study God's Soul and the meaning of life and what makes life meaningful? A debate which I just recently read. It was magnificent. So before we get into further uncovering a bit more of what's under your perspective and such, I want to share with you a bit more about logo therapy and let you respond to that. And I happened. What happened for me is I of course came across his work when I was doing my PhD program, but then I was reintroduced to him in twenty nineteen and I had somebody in my podcast talking about it, and then I went down and became like a diplomat level, which is like a level like a master's level degree in that. So in logo therapy, the whole idea is that main principle is that our chief concern as humans is meaning, and it's our chief energy source and so and our meaning is registered around that which we value. So what you find meaningful will be different what I find mean because we have different values.

34:14 I already know that you value intelligence and rationale and intellect I already know that. So the way that it breaks down is that that we have three sources of meaning available to us as humans through local therapy. The first is our creative contributions. What do we give of ourselves to the world that's important to us, in other words, that we value. I think for both of us it's going to be partly our authorship what we have given to the world in that way. The second source is what experiences or encounters do we take from the world that are valuable and meaningful to us. I call that inspiration. The first one I call passion. So whether it's for me, this conversation is meaningful to me because of the experience that it provides me, rights it's inspiring to me. Then the third source is our attitudinal stance and whatever whatever however we choose to respond when life throws at us whatever it does, and of course I call that mindset.

35:06 So those are the three sources that are available. And when I'm out speaking to audiences, I help them. You understand that, because it's really it's the way. It's one way we can activate meaning in life on that personal level. You're talking about that. To me, I want to be able to offer to people who literally are oftentimes walking through life debt. Otherwise, I mean, I've been a cardcarry member of the walking debt I'm not judging anything. I just want to help those people, right, So could you comment on just your perspective on logo therapy? How what's your stance on that now that you've heard a bit more about it. Yes, I think it's right to say that for something to make our lives meaningful, it helps, and maybe it is essential that we find it meaningful. Got to be meaningful to us. That sounds That sounds right to me.

36:06 But I'd be wary of suggesting that anything we find meaningful really is. So I gave you a couple of examples earlier, of counting blades of grass just for the heck of it, or walking in a circle. You know, perhaps somebody could find that meaningful, but if they did, they'd be wrong. I think perhaps better examples come from the Guinness Book of World Records. So there's one fellow who has who has achieved the feat of putting the most number of toothpicks in his beard. And there's another fellow who has typed out numbers from one to a million on a typewriter, and not numerically right, he's written out one, two and so on up to a million.

37:04 And I suppose these two were probably fairly dedicated to their task, and it might well have energized them. Right after he slept, he's you know, he've got down to five hundred thousand and one and started the day and kept going. But you know, maybe there's some meaning there, but it's not as much, I want to suggest as other activities these folks could have undertaken. And so you know, other themes that we've you know, come up in our conversation at least, like creativity or making a contribution to others. Those look like important ways to orient one's life if one wants something meaningful. So it isn't enough to find an activity meaningful. It's got to be meaningful objectively, as we philosophers say. And then you want to find what's really meaningful. Meaning it's got to be meaningful to you, and it's got to energize you, as you put it, So I would, I would just tweak things, tweak things there.

38:10 I like the suggestion that simply in our attitudes and the way we think about the world, or way we orient our mind towards the world, can be a source of meaning. And I know Frankle was thinking thereof having been in a concentration camp and not being able to do very much right. So I've emphasized intelligence, rationality, doing, creativity, morality, and there just wasn't much opportunity for those kinds of things where Frunkle was at times. And he suggested plausibly that simply your mindset can can be a source of meaning.

38:50 And so I think, yeah, retaining a sense of self respect or or being aware of one's dignity in the face of mystery, that makes sense to me as a source of meaning. But I think the other thing I'd want to add is that it's better outside the concentration camp than in it when it comes to meaning. Yeah, it's one source, but if we really want a richly meaningful life, we're going to want to be able to engage with other people and in creative, constructive ways. Yeah, you really are augmenting the what the whole stance is. So it's it's very interesting to hear your perspective on that.

39:31 I want to go next. If we can this is going to be maybe it'll be a continuation what you just said there. But I was really also intrigued with this idea that you have in the book that alread anyway, Meaning is encapsulated in the good, the true, and the beautiful. Can you say more about that? Yeah? So, in my first book titled Meaning in Life, an Analytics Study, I really poured over what English speaking for law mainly have had to say about meaning over the past hundred years, and I kept noticing this cluster of the good, the true, and the beautiful. And sometimes it was explicit, sometimes the philosopher would use those words.

40:14 Other times it was implicit with the kinds of examples they would use. They would give examples like Einstein or Mother Teresa, or Coltrane or artists. And so a lot of the field thinks that meaning is at least centrally located in these three kinds of activities. And so by the good they mean beneficence or acting acting in a way that makes others better off. And so that would involve being part of a family, or having friends, or working for charity or advancing justice. And that's what the good is supposed to signify. And then the true is is intellect as you phrased it earlier. So it could be a matter of getting a formal education, but it doesn't have to be. It could be a matter of being wise or coming to know yourself could also be an instruence of the true and as opposed to being, you know, deceiving yourself the true of the good and the beautiful, and that is a matter of creativity. And there we could be talking about the arts, and that's the first thing that comes to mind, But it could also just be a matter of being a good gardener, or it could be the beautiful could be realized in one style of clothing, or even in one's humor. Humor can be creative as well. So I don't think all

41:47 meaning is a function of the good, the true, and the beautiful. And I think I think I can find exceptions. So if I, as a person overcomes an addiction or a personality disorder, that doesn't look like it's a matter of the good, the true, or the beautiful. Right, I'm not helping other people, I'm not doing anything particularly creative. Intellect doesn't seem involved in the first instance anyway, but it would be meaningful, I think, to overcome an addiction. So I don't think everything about meaning is a matter of the good, the true, and the beautiful. But it really that triad captures an awful lot of what we have in it does it does?

42:34 It's beautiful one of the other things that's coming to me, and it is the next question I wanted to talk to you about anyway. But it's really this notion I'm getting more and more present too. It seems like the more you know, it's almost like the effort, right, the more we have to work for something, the more meaningful it could be. And so right, there's if it comes easy, maybe it wouldn't be that meaningful. But I couldn't help noticing in your work that you do. You talk a lot about like Mandela Nelson. Mandela is somebody that I really greatly admire. Of course Einstein, but you it seems that you imply that the more impact one has, the more meaningful their life is. Is that fair?

43:14 I think that's true. So I think both both are Both conditions are relevant. So we want to make as much of an impact as we can, and the more effort it takes, the more meaning as well. And I think Mendela encapsulates those both tremendously. Right, So, twenty seven years in jail but eventually frees an entire country from a racist dictatorship and becomes the country's first democratically elected president. You know that's those are impressive outcomes, and it took a heck of a lot of work, and we want both.

44:00 So we don't want to make a lot of effort without having impact. And I also think that we're not going to find a lot of meaning if we make a great impact with little effort. And if I go back to Robert Nozick, the philosopher who came up with the thought experiment of the experience machine, he's got another thought experiment, which he calls the result machine. And it's a hypothetical device, and you press a button, and you can do anything to change society. You get any results you want just by pressing a button. And he suggests, yeah, maybe you press the button, But is your life going to have a lot of meaning as a result of pressing the button. Not nearly as much as if you had really had to make some kind of effort and sacrifice to get the same outcome. And so it's another useful thought experiment when thinking about what makes our lives meaningful, it does look like it's a matter of both effort and impact, not just one.

45:00 A very very interesting discovery for me too, And one of the other things that I want to finish here with that. I found so so fascinating about your work that in particular is you've studied various faiths from around the world, not just stereo Christian, Islamic, et cetera, but just really throughout the world. And what I appreciate again about your your style of debate you know in the book, is you know, the idea of the role of God. In your discussion with Secris about meaning, it was interesting. I did find myself wondering something similar as you as you as you stated in one of the passages, you say, when Professor Secres speaks of the discrepancy between central longings of the human heart and the world devoid of God and afterlife, it is not the human heart as such that that has these longings, but rather his heart, along with many others in the West. I think that's a really really important concept. You know, we tend it's hard some time to take ourselves out of the equation. Can you comment and say a little bit more about how that's distinguished between the two of you and your perspectives.

46:01 Yeah, so, Josh, Professor Seacrest really longs for a world with God and a soul. Yeah, I got that. I mean, I think, yeah, some important part of him would be extremely disappointed to learn that there weren't the world didn't include those things. And I you know, at certain points in our debate, I think he thinks, well, all humans want that, Dan, Yeah, And it is a tempting thought. If that's your culture, if you're reared, or you just you've lived only in a Christian culture, that's probably what you're you know, you're going to be inclined to think that. Yeah. I've lived outside the United States for more than twenty five years and have been exposed to lots of different cultures and religions as a result, and so I'm aware of some religions and some world views that don't include notions of God or a soul, and that have literally billions of adherents. So we've got Confucianism in East Asia, where there's really no appeal to God or an afterlife at all. It's quite a this worldly religion. God doesn't feature in Buddhism either, and Hinduism does feature a God, but that God isn't a person. It's not a self aware agent. It's an unconscious force, which is quite different from you know, the typical Christian understanding of God. And

47:32 so we've got billions of people who believe Confucianism, Buddhism, or Hinduism, and they don't have the deep hankering for an Abrahamic God or a soul as my colleague does. And so that that that, you know, that requires a certain kind of perspective we have to. You know, I don't think we can dismiss billions of people who've had you know, I haven't had these desires in the way my colleague has. And it does lead me to think not that we have to be pluralists necessarily about religion, but that we need to be I don't know, respectful and give consideration to other longstanding traditions when we're debating these things.

48:18 I very much agree with that. Well, we've already gotten to the end of the show. Already it goes by so fast that you know that the show by people around the world who are interested, of course, in being able to develop more meaning in their lives and their work, and want to be part of organizations that are doing something that is better in the world. What would you like to leave them with today? I guess I'd reflect on what we've done for the past forty eight minutes or so. It's sometimes said that meaning, the meaning of life lies in the search for it, and I don't think that's the full story. We've talked about lots of other ways to make our lives meaningful besides searching for meaning, but I think it's probably really true that one way to make our lives meaningful is to search for it. And what we've done is to exercise our intellect together in a constructive way in search of the truth. And I've really, you know, I've found it meaningful and I'm grateful to you for the opportunity to engage.

49:20 Thank you, Thad. It's really a delight to know you. As I say, you really provoked a lot of thinking and questions for myself, and I thank you very much for your work, for stuarding, helping to really steward and establish this field, and for coming on the show. Thanks for being on working on purpose. Thanks again, my pleasure. Listeners and viewers. If you want to learn more about Professor Thaddius Metz, the work he is doing in the field of meaning in life, or his various articles or books, the probably the best way to start that would be to find him on LinkedIn. You can find him and listed under his full name, It's Thaddeus E H A D. D e Us Mets Thaddius Mets. See you next week for another nourishing and inspiring a conversation on working on purpose and er work is one of the best adventures and means of realizing our potential and making the impact We crave and can give us the opportunity to do business in a way that betters the world. So let's work on Purpose.

50:12 We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes, each week on W four CY. Together we'll create a world where business operates conscientiously, Leadership inspires and passion performance, and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning and purpose they crave. See you there, Let's work on Purpose.