Healing Leadership That Creates Vision and Strategy

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There are some people that make their
work just another thing they have to do,

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and there are those that make their
work something that they want to do.

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Welcome to Working on Purpose with your
host Elise Cortes. In our program,

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we provide guidance and inspiration from those
people who have found deeper meaning and

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personal connection to their work life.
It's beyond nine to five. It's working

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on Purpose. Now Here is your
host, Elise Cortes. Welcome back to

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the Working on Purpose Show. Thanks
for tuning in again this week. I'm

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your host, Elise Cortez, joining
from Dallas, Texas, which is home

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base for me. This program is
all about helping people more meaningfully and productively

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connect with their work and equipping organizations
to do the same for their employees,

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and so I bring on guests who
have a particular perspective or experience that I

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think expands the conversation, as well
as drawing on my own meeting and work

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research I've been doing over the last
fifteen years. I'll get to the program

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and justice. Let me thank my
media partner and sponsor, jobbing dot Com.

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They are the leading locally focused job
board in the nation and they are

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dedicated to helping employers find quality talent
in their own backyard. While giving job

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secers control over their search, they
can find work close to home. Great

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partnership. Thank you jobbing dot Com
with us this week I have Ed Kless,

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who is the Senior Director of Partner
Development and Strategy at Sage. He

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develops and delivers curriculum for Sage Business
partners on the art and practice of small

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business consulting, including the Stage Consulting
Academy, Business Strategy and Customer Experience workshops.

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Ed is the author of The Soul
of Enterprise Dialogues on Business in the

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Knowledge Economy, which is a compendium
of a few of the episodes of his

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Voice America talk show The Soul of
Enterprise, Business and the Knowledge Economy that

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he hosts with Ron Baker, founder
of the Veris Stage Institute. Or ED

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is also a Senior Fellow. Today, Ed joined us from Dallas, Texas.

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Ed, Welcome to Working on Purpose. Well, thanks Elise, thanks

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for having me. This is just
great jobs of fun. Right. Can

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I just tell my listeners how I
picked you up? Yeah? Sure,

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kicked you up because I got drafted. I drafted off a fantastic event that

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you and and Ron hosted here and
actually Alan Texas, and I was so

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impressed with with the with the with
the with the very stage imposing that the

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two of you put on, and
when I saw you speak and just how

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you interact with the crowd, I'm
like, you got to come on my

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show at you just have to.
So that's filling the rest that I missed.

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What else did I miss about how
I met you? Oh well,

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now that's that's probably the gist of
it, you know, go Alan Eagles.

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So uh, We're we're good to
go on that. I'm I'm just

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happy to be joining you today and
this is fun to be in the same

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state, even though we're still on
Skype, so I know it's it's great.

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I love that. I absolutely love
that. So before we get into

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the topics, I want to talk
about about healing leadership. I want to

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talk about creating vision and strategy and
consulting theory and practice. But before we

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do, would you just say a
little something to our listeners. One of

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the things that just got me about
you, it's just how you you literally

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skip and play through life and work. And so you had mentioned that the

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work that you do at Sage is
just you just get to be you and

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they kind of pay for it.
So would you see a bit more about

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that? Yeah, I and my
wife hates it when I describe it this

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way because she says it sounds a
bit conceited, and it sort of does.

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But I don't know how I made
this work. But in my almost

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now fifteen years at Sage, I
have somehow carved out a niche and my

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job is effectively being at class.
That's what I do. Where else would

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you be able to host a radio
show, do a podcast, go on

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speaking events all over the country and
indeed the world, and get paid to

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do it. And I'm not exactly
sure how I did it. It wasn't

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a conscious effort on my part,
except to say that I really try to

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just focus on doing what I love
doing and let the rest follow. I

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was hired at Sage to do something
completely different, which was recruit partners for

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Sage, but then that morphed into
just helping our partners. This is organizations

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that either resell or recommend our software. And next thing you know, I

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turned this into this this great gig
where I just have a lot of fun

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and it's fantastic. I just love
my job. Well, and that's another

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reason that I wanted to have you
on the show, and of course is

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because you're literally you really are kind
of working on purpose. You're just kind

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of being you and you get to
walk through life like that and somebody pays

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you for it. And I think
most of us would like to be able

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to find a gig like that.
So I wanted to be sure and have

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that be present for our listeners because
I think it gives them hope that there

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really is a way for them just
to if they can, if they can

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find a way to target that and
see where the value is for that.

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I think if something like that that
would make I think the world would be

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a better place if more of us
could do that. I think you're right.

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And by the way I stole this, I saw an article seven or

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eight years ago on this. I'm
a huge New York Mets fan. I'm

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originally from from the New York metropolitan
area, huge mess fan, and I

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saw that the New York Mets had
had hired one of their their aging stars,

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their people who'd been around for years
in the seventies and even the early

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eighties. This guy by the name
of Rusty Stob otherwise La grand Da Range

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and they they they hired him to
be rusty Stop. That was his job

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title, right, In other words, he was he was a corporate ambassador

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for them, that's what he did. But in this article they said,

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we hired him to be rusty Stop. That's what we hired him to do,

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and that that always stuck with me, and I don't know, I

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guess that that just has played into
how I've gone about doing what I do.

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Is that you know, I focus
every day on on being the best

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at class I can be, and
it seems to work out. So,

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oh my gosh, I love that. And if I remember it, I'm

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gonna I'm going to pull out a
book that I'm reading right now that gets

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to just that very thing, being
the best version of ourselves. By the

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way, it's just awesome. So
maybe on the next break, I'll grab

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that and just pull it out for
our listener since you brought it up.

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But before we get to that next
break, let's talk about leadership, and

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specifically you mentioned healing leadership and you
had me at healing. I'm really interested

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to hear your perspective on this,
Ed. What do you got? Yeah,

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this is a topic I'm extraordinarily passionate
about. And it was first shared

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with me by a or still my
mentor guy the name of Howard Hanson,

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who's written a book called Healing Leadership
with his now deceased partner, Steve Jeski.

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And it's a double entendre. It's
a double entendre. In this world.

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Healing leadership means that leadership itself as
a concept needs to be healed.

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It's broken, it's really broken,
and it needs to be healed. It

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needs to be fixed. And the
other thing, the other meaning of this

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phrase is that when done correctly,
leadership inside business organization can be healing.

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We can actually heal some of the
wounds that people bring with them to work

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if if leadership is done well at
work. In fact, Steve, who

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has said has now walked on as
as Steve wanted us to say about him,

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he believes that the only place where
we can have healing in the world

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is in small and medium business,
so or I should I should say this

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entrepreneurial businesses. And his rationale is
this, and I think this is absolutely

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fascinating. Every other institution that you
can think of government, uh, certainly

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not even most, not not for
profits, large not for profits, the

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churches, synagogues, temples, uh
that they are all interested in preserving the

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status quo. That's what their job
is. I can see that, yep,

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and large organization has become the same
thing, right. Over time,

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the larger the organization becomes, the
less entrepreneurial it is, and therefore it

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becomes more interested in preserving the status
quo. So therefore they cannot break out

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of the mold of preservation of the
status quo because that's what they're there to

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do, that's what they exist to
do. Now, in some cases,

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there's nothing wrong with the status quo, like the you know, the Catholic

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Church, for example, has been
around for two thousand years, and they've

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preserved themselves pretty well, weathering lots
and lots of storms over the course of

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those two millennia. But the point
is is that they can't get out of

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this notion of preserving that that status
quo, preserving the past. And entrepreneurialism

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is about the future and about changing
things and if you're and because of that,

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it's only the entrepreneurial organization that can
really be the place where healing leadership

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can take place. Okay, this
is fascinating. So this is not quite

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what I expected you to say,
But I don't know what you were going

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to say, Ed, actually,
But that's why I ask you the question,

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what's healing leadership? I thought that
you were going to talk a little

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bit about just how it is that
leaders can really cultivate the best in people,

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et cetera. And I think that's
probably the part of what you were

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saying there. But the other piece
that I wanted to get to from our

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vantage point and insignium is we're really
big on the notion of inspirational leadership and

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the idea that so much of leadership
today is so flat and lacking inspiration.

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Now, if we add the healing
piece to that, I really like that.

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I've never heard of this before,
Ed, but I like it.

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It makes sense to me. And
so you said it was Howard Hansen was

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the name of the person who wrote
okay h A N S E N not

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O N E N okay. And
I'm certainly happy to send you a link

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to it. You could put it
up if you have show notes or whatever

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on that. But and we've actually
had Howard on the show on our show

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a couple of times too, so
that might be interesting to listeners, so

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to tune in. But here here's
where Howard and Steve got their inspiration from

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that this you know, there's there's
several links here. Uh. The book

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that inspired them is called A Failure
of Nerve Leadership in the Age of the

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Quick Fix by Edwin Friedman. Friedman
was a or because he's deceased too,

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was a family therapist, and he's
the one who really came up with this

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discovery. And in fact, he
loves the word inspiration, and inspiration,

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by the way, means to breathe
life into. Yes, I know,

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I love that, so so it's
a great it's a great word for it.

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So it's it's about breath to,
you know, to breathe into.

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But but Friedman's famous quote is this
the colossal misunderstanding of our time. First

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of all, I love that word
colossal. The colossal misunderstanding of our time

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is the assumption that insight will work
with people who are unmotivated to change.

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Wow. And yeah, and that
that's one of those statements that you read

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that and you go, okay it
the light really does suddenly come on And

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it's this whole notion that look and
if you think about it in your in

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your personal relationships, whether this be
a spouse, significant other children, you

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know, especially teenage children or adult
children, in our in our workplaces,

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in our communities and churches, even
in international relations. Right, this quote

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is true. I mean, after
all, just not to get political,

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but but you know, back in
the Gulf War or the or the Iraqi

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war. What what what did Saddam
Hussein miss about? If you don't let

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the UN inspectors in, we're taking
you out? Right? What did he

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miss? Right? So it's a
great example of he he was unmotivated to

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change. So even it doesn't matter
what the insight is going to be,

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there's no there's nothing that you can
say to someone who is un motivated to

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change. It's going to give them
that sudden spark. Right. So I

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don't I don't believe that we can
motivate others. I don't. I don't

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believe that that accountability is something that
is imposed, right, Accountability has to

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be chosen. I choose to be
accountable to other people. People can't make

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me be accountable. That's that's one
of the most ridiculous notions that's taking place

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in modern business. This I hear
it all the time in meetings, How

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do we get those people to be
accountable? You don't. You don't get

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them. You do what you're talking
about, which is inspire people and if

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so, they choose to be accountable. I completely agree with that. And

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what I was coming into my head
as you talk at and I knew this

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was going to be a yummy,
juicy conversation, so thank you already.

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Is this whole idea of the push
pull motivation. So it's like when we're

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having a conversation with somebody and that
other person says something interesting, we can't

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help ourself. We lean into it, right, We lean into the conversation.

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And that's what I'm getting when I
hear you talk is when somebody is

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incentive or motivated to change, or
or wants to be accountable, they're leaning

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into that situation or that that that
opportunity. That's how I'm seeing it.

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Yeah, And and Freedman then goes
further. He says, well, if

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that's true, if the colossal misunderstanding
of our time is the assumption that insight

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will work with people who are unmotivated
to change. If that's true, then

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what do you do? Right?
What do you do? But because because

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the reaction is, but I want
to change people, you see, that's

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what I want. I want to
I want to fix my teenage son,

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who's you know, having a problem
with alcohol or drugs or it has a

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bad girlfriend or something. Right,
I want him. I want to manipulate

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him, right, and the and
and Freedman's answer is very simple. He

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says, look this this, here's
all you can do if you are interested

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in continuing the relationship, remain connected
to the person, and work on changing

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yourself rather than trying to change them. I like that. That's it.

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That's that's all you can do.
And but people are like, well,

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what else is there? What's the
five steps? Right, what's the what's

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the clickbait response? Right? Yeah, what are the what are the three

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things that every leader needs to know? No, that's it. And and

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and then Friedman says, and if
you and here's here's the tough love portion.

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If you don't care about the relationship, if the relationship has become too

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far toxic, too toxic, then
you just end the relationship. That's your

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only choice. I really get that, Oh my gosh. And I can

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tell you that I've had a personal
recent example of having to do that,

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and it's it's hard, it's really
hard to end to a toxic relationship like

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that in the business sense, but
it's so important for cleaning. Oh my

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gosh. So going back to the
healing piece of what you've been talking about,

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can you kind of help us tie
together some of those concepts for our

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listeners. Yeah? Sure. And
the notion is is that that leadership as

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that with that being the foundational principle
is about being a non anxious presence.

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M wow, that's great. And
Howard and Steve have this great two by

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two. You know, you have
anxiety on one side, so either anxious

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or non anxious, and then the
other the other one is present, non

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present, and that he said those
that they believe those are the four types

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of leaders. So what you're looking
for is you're looking for people who are

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non anxious but present, right,
So don't don't hype up the anxiety,

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but rather lower the anxiety in a
situation, but are also fully present and

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there and that's what we choo for. Now. What's great about this is

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they say that there are extraordinary problems
with this. A non anxious present leader

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should expect sabotage. Interesting why because
people who are who are anxious want to

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enroll others in their anxiety. So
true what they want to do, So

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that you should expect sabotage. That's
going to be part of it. If

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you're leading well, there is going
to be high amounts of anxiety. There

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is going to be a sabotage from
other people. There is going to be

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conflict, and that means you're leading
well. Wow, so that is so

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great for our listeners to hear.
This is great and it's probably shaking a

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few of them up. So and
believe it or not, can you if

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you can imagine we've already blown through
our first segment here, it's time for

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a break already. I don't know
how it happens, right, it evaporated.

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So I'm your host, Elise Cortez. We've been on the year with

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Ed Kles who is a senior director
of and partner excuse me, the senior

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director of Partner Development and Strategy at
Sage, where he develops and delivers curriculum

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for Sage Business Partners on the art
and practice of small business consulting. He

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is also the author of The Soul
of Enterprise dialogues on business in the Knowledge

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Economy, which is a compendium of
a few of the episodes of his Voice

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00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:12.079
America talk show of the same name
that he owes with Ron Baker. We've

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been talking a bit about his perspective
on healing leadership, and after this next

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segment, we're going to talk about
vision and strategy. Stay with us,

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flip you right back, It's your
world, Motivate, Change, Succeed.

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Voice America Empowerment dot com. Alice
Cortez is a speaker and engagement and development

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catalyst. She designs and delivers professional
development, leadership and engagement workshops and can

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bring her expertise to your organization.
She will help ignite meaningful development within your

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workflow that will increase employee engagement,
performance and retention. To learn more or

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00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:08.720
to invite Elise to speak to your
organization, please visit her at www dot

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00:18:08.759 --> 00:18:15.279
Elisecortes dot com. She would welcome
the opportunity to help get your employees working

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00:18:15.400 --> 00:18:19.599
on purpose. Are you ready to
tackle the rules of business. You may

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think you're doing everything by the book, following your own best practice beliefs,

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bringing in endless consultants, only to
find that your business is not moving forward.

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That's where you need to stop and
figure out where things are going wrong.

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00:18:33.519 --> 00:18:38.279
Enter business Rules with host Peter Feinstein. Peter and his guests will break

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it all down for you to help
you and your business succeed. Listen Wednesdays

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at eight a m. Pacific Time
eleven am Eastern Time on Voice America Empowerment.

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It's time to live the life of
inner peace that you deserve. Tune

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in every week for Sacred Exploration with
host Lisa tremont Oda. You can discover

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the you that has been kept here
all this time, show off your personal

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gifts to the world. Lisa and
her guests will combine health and spirituality to

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bring you the experience that you've been
waiting for. You'll enjoy this journey every

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Wednesday at five pm Pacific Time at
eight pm Eastern Time on the Voice America

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Empowerment Channel. It's sure to be
a nourishing experience. Friend this on Facebook

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to keep up with what's empowering the
world. Voice America Empowerment. This is

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00:19:36.119 --> 00:19:40.880
working on Purpose with Elise Cortes.
To reach our program today, please call

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in to one triple eight three four
six nine one four one Again. That's

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one triple eight three four six nine
one four one You may also send an

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email to Aleise Alisee at elisecortes dot
com. Now back to working on Purpose.

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Thanks for staying with us, and
welcome back to working on Purpose if

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you're just joining us. My guest
is Ed Kless, who is a Senior

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director of Partner Development and Strategy at
Sage. He develops and delivers curriculum for

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Sage Business partners on the art and
practice of small business consulting, including the

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Sage Consulting Academy, Business Strategy and
Customer Experience workshops. It is the author

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of The Soul of Enterprise Dialogues on
Business in the Knowledge Economy, which is

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a compendium of a few of the
episodes of his Voice America talk show of

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the same name that he hosts with
Ron Baker. I'm your host of these

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Cortes. So, and we were
talking before about your notion of healing leadership,

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and on the break, I wanted
to make sure that there wasn't something

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else you wanted to presence. There
was one more thing you wanted to talk

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about. What is it? Yeah, I mentioned I mentioned a word anxiety,

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and I wanted to talk a little
bit about that because that I think

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is one of the more important things
that we need to recognize in business and

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leadership today, and that is anxiety
of different situations. Anxiety and createivity are

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always inversely proportional to each other.
Right, the more anxious you are,

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the less creative you will be.
And you can't turn on creativity. In

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fact, trying to turn on creativity
makes you more anxious. Right, I

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need to be creative now, right, so that that that that doesn't work.

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But what we can do is we
can lower our anxiety about situations.

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Now, anxiety and stress are not
the same thing either. That's another thing

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that people mistake. Right, you
could you can still be in a highly

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stressful situation, but lower your anxiety. And I want to give probably the

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one of the most famous examples of
a person who is able to do this

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and this this guy's name is Chesley
Sullenberger's at ring a bell four. You

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elis certainly? Does the guy the
land of the lane on the Hudson River,

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You bet absolutely? And this is
this is perhaps the greatest example that

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I've ever encountered of a non ag
just presence literally healing leadership, and that

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he saved lives and and an ability
to self regulate and lower ones level of

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anxiety. You know, he he
If you listen to some of the cockpit

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recordings of what happened, it was
just absolutely incredible. He at one point

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turns to Jim Skiles, the co
pilot, and Skiles who was actually flying

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the plane and turned it back over
to Sullenberger after the bird strike. And

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Skyles has this real deep baritone voice. But when he's but he says,

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you're a plane like that when he
when he's turning over the controls and and

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Sullenberger tells him, Jim, execute
the ditch checklist. Now, the ditch

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checklist was meant to be executed from
thirty five thousand feet, right, not

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not like I think four thousand,
which is where they were. So really

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what he was doing, he was
he was just giving Skyles something to do

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to stay out of his hair,
right, That's what he was doing.

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Interesting, He's like, he's like, I've got to do this, so

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let me let me take this obviously
anxious person and give him something to do.

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This is what I think, by
the way that that obstricians do with

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with with spouses when when when one
of them is having a baby, right,

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they put they put them in charge
of the technology. Go look at

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the fetal monitor, you know,
yep, yep, yep. Right,

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get him out of my hair,
all right. So anyway, So,

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but Sullenberger then goes about the business
of, as he puts it, successfully

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crashed the aircraft. I love that
term successfully crashed. By the way,

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we need to do more in business. We need to successfully crash things better,

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right like that. But but that
one point, if you you can

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look this up, there's a sixty
minutes episode that was dedicated entirely to this,

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the Miracle on the Hudson I think
it was called and And Katie Kuric,

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being the great interviewer that she is, at one point asks Sellenberger.

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She says, Sully, at any
point, did you pray? And he

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says, no, ma'am. There
were one hundred and fifty people behind me

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taking care of that. Great.
I am certain of that. Yes,

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it's so great. His job was
to successfully crash the aircraft. That was

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his job, not to pray.
Praying would not have helped, right,

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not him, because that was not
his job, right right, right?

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Oh, this is fascinating it I
love this. Okay, So anyway,

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so that's the point I wanted to
make is that this that we in business,

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what we have to do is focus
on lowering our overall level of anxiety,

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and that that is really the key
to Can we be aware of our

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anxiety and can we begin to then
self regulate and lower our anxiety in difficult

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situations? I think that is so
brilliant. What a fantastic point. I'm

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so glad that you made that is
that was worth the price of admission right

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there? Ed, thank you whatever
that price was. Yes, okay,

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really quick. I did find the
book that I mentioned before. It's called

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Perfectly Yourself. Nine Lessons for Enduring
Happiness by Matthew Kelly, and I'm reading

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it in preparation for another interview that
I'm doing. So it's related to what

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you said about you just getting to
be ed kless and getting paid for it.

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So it gets very much to this
idea of becoming more of yourself over

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time to become happy. So obviously
you are somebody who embodies that, Ed.

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So here we go. Okay,
you're welcome. You're ready to move

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on to creating vision and strategy.
That was the second thing we wanted to

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talk about. You're ready, Yeah, yeah, sure, let's do it

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what you got. This is another
area that I've spent a lot of time

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working with many many organizations on doing, and that is creating, creating vision

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and strategy in the organizations. The
let's first talk about the vision, the

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vision piece and and uh, it
might it might sound quaint, but I

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really do think that, as proverb
says, where there is no vision,

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that people perish. And and I
think that most organizations, when they lose

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their shared vision, or they lose
sight of their shared vision, is the

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day that they really begin to wither
and die. Some some fortunately do get

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it back right, but but but
very very few are able to maintain a

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focus on vision in the long haul. And that which is why I think

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it's critically important work. So people
who are starting out entrepreneurs need to develop

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this sense of shared vision. And
shared vision really has three components to it,

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and these are these are kind of
the traditional terms, but there are

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other there are other other terms that
are also used to describe this, and

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that is mission, vision, and
values. Right. The first is that

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the know mission is what you know? What Why do we? Why why

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does every why do we come into
work today? To do what? Right?

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And it can't be make money because
that's the result. That's just a

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result. That's not that's not a
cause. Right, So what why why

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do we come in? Why do
we all come into work today? Everyone

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in the organization? And it has
three really subcomponents, which is what do

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we do? Who benefits from what
we do? And sometimes how do we

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do it right? And those are
the three quick pieces of getting that that

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vision piece. And then the next
component, of course, is the values.

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And these are sometimes words or phrases
that just embody what the organization is

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and and it not surprisingly many organizations
have similar sets of values. The you

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know, honesty, integrity, velocity, I've seen do you know, treat

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customer as well? Uh, try
to make money and have fun? Right?

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These these would all be examples of
it. But to me, what's

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most important about the values and mission
piece is not what they are, but

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what they do, and by that
I mean how are they used on a

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regular basis inside the organization. Every
person's company probably has a mission and values

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somewhere. You just go to your
If you don't know what it is,

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go to the about page of your
own company's website and you'll find some infinitive

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right to create to implement, to
assist to whatever. That's usually how it

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begins, and anyone in the organization
can do this. It does not require

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that somebody be a top level executive
in order to make this happen. But

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if you can find out what the
mission is of the organization and begin to

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use it in everyday conversation, you'll
begin to see a difference made in the

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organization. And the way it works
is this is when when somebody or someone

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or some group makes a decision that
seems to be at odds with either the

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mission or values of the organization,
then someone has an obligation to say this,

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help me understand how this decision we
just made is in alignment with our

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value let's say, of putting customers
first. Yep, I got to see

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that. And that's the conversation.
Those are the conversations that need to be

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had, right tying this back in
it requires a low level of anxiety to

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ask those questions m and to be
present for them. Yes, and to

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be present for them. And what
I think is important to note here is

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that this is not something and I'm
going to repeat this, this is not

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something that only people who are executives
in the organization can do. Agreed,

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anyone and everyone I believe has an
obligation to bring these conversations to the forefront.

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Now understand that this is about healing, leadership and leading well and and

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and there will be sabotage. And
don't be surprised if the sabotage comes from

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leadership and management of the organization,
because remember, sometimes they get entrenched in

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their their job is to is to
preserve the status quo. I want to

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00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:26.440
I want to ask something really quickly
on that, on this on this front

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00:30:26.480 --> 00:30:30.680
end, this is that's just really
turning for me in terms of the sabotage

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stuff. So you're saying that that
you to expect that, so clearly there

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is a there's a I think what
you're suggesting is that there are some kind

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of a positive contribution by the sabotage. What what can we get through the

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00:30:42.640 --> 00:30:45.880
sabotage efforts if we're if we if
we're a leader in managing that, well,

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00:30:47.039 --> 00:30:52.519
what can we get It's very similar
to a virus in the body,

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00:30:52.759 --> 00:31:00.759
right, and that viruses and anxiety
and therefore saboteurs work work very much like

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00:31:00.839 --> 00:31:07.400
that. You know, we get
inoculated right against stuff. So we in

407
00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:14.200
the you know, the way that
we've we've rid the human population of of

408
00:31:14.200 --> 00:31:19.799
of uh smallpox was through injecting at
first a smaller version of cowpox and then

409
00:31:19.839 --> 00:31:26.039
better and better vaccines. Right,
So non anxious present behavior is like a

410
00:31:26.119 --> 00:31:33.079
vaccine. Yes, it gives you
a sometimes a lighter form of the disease.

411
00:31:33.279 --> 00:31:37.440
So in other words, it brings
it brings the anxiety to the forefront,

412
00:31:37.960 --> 00:31:42.160
but it gives the opportunity for the
conversation to be had that allows you

413
00:31:42.200 --> 00:31:48.359
to your the body that is the
corporation and I use that word and on

414
00:31:48.440 --> 00:31:56.720
purpose to to rid itself of the
more toxic virus. Okay, right,

415
00:31:56.759 --> 00:32:00.400
does that make sense? It does, And it's I've never heard of anything

416
00:32:00.599 --> 00:32:05.119
like this, and that's I'm really
really intrigued by this. This is really

417
00:32:05.119 --> 00:32:08.400
really interesting, stimulating conversation for me. I like it. Thank you.

418
00:32:08.519 --> 00:32:13.079
Yeah, no, this is this
is this is this is some important stuff.

419
00:32:13.960 --> 00:32:17.240
It really is, and I'm proud
to share it with you and and

420
00:32:17.640 --> 00:32:21.720
your listeners. I hope it's helping
people. By the way, it's not

421
00:32:21.759 --> 00:32:24.400
for everyone. There are a lot
of people who when I present this material

422
00:32:24.440 --> 00:32:30.680
to outright reject it and are do
not like it at all. And I

423
00:32:30.759 --> 00:32:34.799
and one of the things I when
I talk about healing leadership and I do

424
00:32:34.839 --> 00:32:37.960
a presentation on it, usually about
ten minutes into the presentation, I will

425
00:32:38.200 --> 00:32:42.920
take a break and pause and see
if there's anybody who wants to leave the

426
00:32:43.000 --> 00:32:47.319
room, because there are there are
many people who are are so turned off

427
00:32:47.359 --> 00:32:52.039
by this notion and get upset that
I think they need to go, they

428
00:32:52.079 --> 00:32:54.440
need to take care of themselves.
And I say, look, I won't

429
00:32:54.440 --> 00:32:59.440
be offended if you leave. If
this is not for you, so well,

430
00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:05.680
people oftentimes find themselves. Yeah,
it's it's that actually leave. It's

431
00:33:05.720 --> 00:33:09.160
probably ten percent. I think,
wow, really ten percent, that's quite

432
00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:13.759
a bit. Yeah. So,
so here's what's great about that in terms

433
00:33:13.799 --> 00:33:15.799
of certainly being a leader yourself then, is to be able to make people

434
00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:22.799
uncomfortable enough with a new topic to
get them really considering and examining their within

435
00:33:22.839 --> 00:33:27.359
their own inquiry, their perspective,
and their experience of leadership is in and

436
00:33:27.400 --> 00:33:31.400
of itself, I think a tremendous
contribution. Yeah. No, it's always

437
00:33:31.480 --> 00:33:35.240
it's always great to question your your
own self, right, you know,

438
00:33:35.279 --> 00:33:39.680
it's a have you ever heard the
Turing test? I have, But tell

439
00:33:39.680 --> 00:33:44.640
me again more about it, because
I forget the Turing test was I think

440
00:33:45.160 --> 00:33:50.920
Alan, I think it's Allan Allan
Yep Touring Yep, who developed some of

441
00:33:51.000 --> 00:33:55.759
the early computer programs and stuff and
was very influential today with the with the

442
00:33:57.319 --> 00:34:00.799
coming about of artificial intelligence. He
developed the test which was if if you

443
00:34:00.880 --> 00:34:06.559
can fool a human being by a
computer to think that what you're talking to

444
00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:12.079
is another human being, right,
then you pass the Touring test. Right?

445
00:34:13.119 --> 00:34:19.280
Interesting? Right? Right? So
that that's that's the Touring test.

446
00:34:19.360 --> 00:34:27.239
So this notion of uh anxiety is
sort of like that is can can we

447
00:34:27.880 --> 00:34:32.880
can we can we fool people?
Or or can they best state the best

448
00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:39.880
objection to doing something in an organization? Right? If you if you can

449
00:34:39.920 --> 00:34:45.199
take the other side of a particular
issue and make somebody on your side think

450
00:34:45.199 --> 00:34:49.400
that you're on the other side,
then you pass the test. Got it?

451
00:34:49.639 --> 00:34:52.519
I think that is gorgeous. I
totally really appreciate that. And in

452
00:34:52.599 --> 00:34:57.760
part, and this may not be
an immediate obvious thing to you, Ed,

453
00:34:57.840 --> 00:35:01.159
but my Batcheler's and master degrees are
both in liberal studies, and one

454
00:35:01.199 --> 00:35:05.920
of the things that I pride myself
in is that I, for the most

455
00:35:05.920 --> 00:35:09.519
part, believe that I can be
able to look at two very distinct perspective

456
00:35:09.559 --> 00:35:14.159
and see the value in each of
them. I think there's something too that

457
00:35:14.239 --> 00:35:16.840
not always I can't tell you that's
always true, but I do pride myself

458
00:35:16.840 --> 00:35:22.320
in at least trying to do that. Yeah. No, it's a good

459
00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:24.599
thing to be in. And look, this is hard stuff, and just

460
00:35:24.639 --> 00:35:29.480
to you know, talk a little
bit about relate these two topics together,

461
00:35:29.599 --> 00:35:32.440
but you know the notion of healing
leadership and then this piece as well,

462
00:35:32.519 --> 00:35:38.119
which is about vision and strategy and
taking the other side as people. I'm

463
00:35:38.119 --> 00:35:44.679
gonna say I only get it right
about three out of ten times, but

464
00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:47.280
the point is, but the whole
point is that you're trying to get it

465
00:35:47.360 --> 00:35:52.159
right right. That's the whole perspective
here. Yeah, I got it well,

466
00:35:52.280 --> 00:35:53.159
believe it or not. We run
out of time again, Ed,

467
00:35:53.239 --> 00:35:55.400
for the segment, can you hang
on to that topic for just a second.

468
00:35:55.440 --> 00:35:58.559
If we want to say one about
that, we'll grab it after the

469
00:35:58.559 --> 00:36:00.159
break. I'm a least quartet as
your host. We've been on the air

470
00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:05.159
with Ed Kless, who is the
senior director of Partner Development and Strategy at

471
00:36:05.159 --> 00:36:07.880
Sage, where he develops and delivers
curriculum for SAGE business partners on the art

472
00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:12.360
and practice of small business consulting,
and is the author of The Soul of

473
00:36:12.440 --> 00:36:15.480
Enterprise Dialogues on Business in the Knowledge
Economy, which is a compendium of a

474
00:36:15.519 --> 00:36:20.039
few of the episodes of his Voice
America talk show of the same name that

475
00:36:20.119 --> 00:36:23.800
he hosts with Ron Baker. We've
been talking this segment about creating vision and

476
00:36:23.880 --> 00:36:27.599
strategy. After the next break,
we're going to talk a bit more about

477
00:36:27.599 --> 00:36:45.719
consulting theory and practice. Stay with
us, We'll be right back. It's

478
00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:54.719
your world. Motivate, Change,
Succeed. Voice America Empowerment dot com.

479
00:36:54.880 --> 00:37:00.719
Alis Cortez is a speaker and engagement
and development catalyst, designs and delivers professional

480
00:37:00.760 --> 00:37:06.920
development, leadership and engagement workshops and
can bring her expertise to your organization.

481
00:37:07.159 --> 00:37:12.199
She will help ignite meaningful development within
your workforce that will increase employee engagement,

482
00:37:12.320 --> 00:37:15.480
performance and retention. To learn more
or to invite alease to speak to your

483
00:37:15.599 --> 00:37:22.079
organization, please visit her at www
dot Elise Coortes dot com. She would

484
00:37:22.119 --> 00:37:27.719
welcome the opportunity to help get your
employees working on purpose. Are you looking

485
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for life's answers. How about the
meaning of true self? Can you really

486
00:37:31.159 --> 00:37:36.519
be a better person overnight? Well, good luck with that now. If

487
00:37:36.559 --> 00:37:39.599
you want to know more about this
insane world in life we lead, tune

488
00:37:39.639 --> 00:37:45.320
in to doctor Gary Bell's Absurd Psychology. You'll learn about how the brain operates

489
00:37:45.400 --> 00:37:50.159
under different psychological conditions, some common
sense, Beck, you might just actually

490
00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:54.320
learn something. Listen Fridays at one
pm Pacific four pm Eastern on Voice America

491
00:37:54.360 --> 00:38:01.000
Empowerment. We all have unique experiences
and outlooks when it comes to leadership and

492
00:38:01.039 --> 00:38:07.119
team building. Yet sometimes we clash
even when trying to achieve the exact same

493
00:38:07.199 --> 00:38:12.320
goals. Check out Unleash your Inner
Goldilocks How to get it just right.

494
00:38:12.800 --> 00:38:16.960
Your host is doctor cass Henry.
A shared journey equals success, and every

495
00:38:17.079 --> 00:38:22.320
human interaction has the power to achieve
this success by working together. Tune in

496
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497
00:38:28.559 --> 00:38:32.760
America Empowerment Channel. Follow us on
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498
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Empowerment. This is working on purpose
with a Lease Cortes. To reach our

499
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program today, please call in to
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500
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501
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You may also send an email to
a lease Ali at Alisportes dot com.

502
00:39:02.519 --> 00:39:07.880
Now back to working on Purpose.
Thanks for staying with us, and

503
00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:12.199
welcome back to working on Purpose if
you're just tuning in. My guest is

504
00:39:12.320 --> 00:39:15.800
Ed Kles, who is the Senior
director of Partner Development and Strategy at Sage.

505
00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:19.719
He develops and delivers curriculum for Sage
Business partners on the art and practice

506
00:39:19.719 --> 00:39:23.400
of small business consulting, including the
Sage Consulting Academy, Business Strategy and Customer

507
00:39:23.400 --> 00:39:29.079
Experience Workshops. It is the author
of The Soul of Enterprise Dialogues on Business

508
00:39:29.079 --> 00:39:31.360
in the Knowledge Economy, which is
a compendium of a few of the episodes

509
00:39:31.400 --> 00:39:35.360
of his Voice America talk show of
the same name that he co hosts with

510
00:39:35.440 --> 00:39:38.960
Ron Baker. I'm your host,
Elise Cortes. So for this last segment

511
00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:43.360
here, Ed, I wanted to
talk more about this notion of consulting theory

512
00:39:43.360 --> 00:39:45.639
and practice, and if we have
time, talk a bit about pricing,

513
00:39:45.639 --> 00:39:49.679
because I know you've got a perspective
on that. So and you know,

514
00:39:49.760 --> 00:39:52.719
just as I just said in my
introduction of you. You have been teaching

515
00:39:52.760 --> 00:39:57.079
business owners this whole concept for quite
some time. So if you would start

516
00:39:57.199 --> 00:40:01.400
at a high level in terms of
how you talk about consulting theory, sure,

517
00:40:01.480 --> 00:40:06.880
And and for this I'm I'm indebted
to a guy by the name of

518
00:40:06.920 --> 00:40:10.599
Peter Block. Oh yes, yeah, I think we've we've talked about Peter

519
00:40:10.639 --> 00:40:14.039
Block. I think when we had
we were able to have lunch together.

520
00:40:15.400 --> 00:40:21.800
Peter Block is is the in my
opinion, the leading thinker on the art

521
00:40:21.840 --> 00:40:24.320
and practice of consulting, what it
means to be a consultant, and his

522
00:40:24.320 --> 00:40:30.960
his two great books are Flawless Consulting. And then, of course the answer

523
00:40:30.039 --> 00:40:32.800
to how is yes. But but
I will say this, I think this

524
00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:37.840
maybe half a dozen books by him. They're all terrific. So just Google

525
00:40:37.960 --> 00:40:42.639
or go to Amazon, type Peter
Block and buy it. That's my advice.

526
00:40:43.239 --> 00:40:46.599
Okay, good, I like that. One click, yeah, click,

527
00:40:46.719 --> 00:40:51.280
one click. Okay. So so
so let me let me start that

528
00:40:51.320 --> 00:40:53.519
at high level with with the definition
of consulting that I use, and again

529
00:40:53.960 --> 00:40:59.599
courtesy Peter Block, and that is
a consultant is a person who has some

530
00:40:59.760 --> 00:41:05.320
in in fluence over an individual,
group or organization, but has no direct

531
00:41:05.360 --> 00:41:13.079
authority to make decisions. HM,
right, yes, and that that and

532
00:41:13.360 --> 00:41:16.280
the end of that making decisions is
the key is understanding that you, as

533
00:41:16.320 --> 00:41:23.559
a consultant, do not ever make
decisions on behalf of a customer. Now,

534
00:41:23.960 --> 00:41:30.280
Block will contrast a consultant with what
he calls a surrogate manager. A

535
00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:36.079
surrogate manager is someone who acts on
behalf of or in place of a manager

536
00:41:36.159 --> 00:41:40.039
in an organization, meaning they make
this they're paid to make decisions, right.

537
00:41:40.280 --> 00:41:43.440
They might be temporary, they might
be so, they might not be

538
00:41:43.480 --> 00:41:47.000
an employee of the organization, but
they are paid to make decisions on behalf

539
00:41:47.079 --> 00:41:52.480
of someone instead. And I think
it's an important distinction to make to decide

540
00:41:52.519 --> 00:41:57.000
which which are you? Are you
a consultant or surrogate manager If you don't

541
00:41:57.000 --> 00:42:00.760
like surrogate manager, substitute in a
different term, it's just the the term

542
00:42:00.760 --> 00:42:04.880
that I use through Peter Block.
But I think what's important to note is

543
00:42:04.880 --> 00:42:07.960
that as a consultant, if you're
truly in a consulting role, you do

544
00:42:07.119 --> 00:42:15.000
not ever make decisions right. Instead, what I suggest and then this is

545
00:42:15.159 --> 00:42:21.360
this is the kind of my work
on top of Peter blocks work is uh,

546
00:42:22.039 --> 00:42:23.840
what you do is use what I
called a Ford model FO r D.

547
00:42:23.920 --> 00:42:25.960
And it has nothing to do with
the car. I happen to drive

548
00:42:27.000 --> 00:42:30.920
Hondas myself, but at F O
r D, and it's the FO r

549
00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:37.639
D stands for Findings, Options,
recommendation, and decision, right, And

550
00:42:37.960 --> 00:42:40.599
this notion that the that the first
three, the f O and the R

551
00:42:40.920 --> 00:42:45.960
are consulting levels. So I can
go into an organization and I can ask

552
00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:47.360
well, and then and and and
tell them, hey, listen, is

553
00:42:47.400 --> 00:42:50.039
this what you want from me?
You just want me to come in and

554
00:42:50.079 --> 00:42:52.440
give you my findings. I'm going
to ask a boatload of questions, and

555
00:42:52.480 --> 00:42:54.639
I'm going to ask a lot of
questions to a lot of different people,

556
00:42:54.679 --> 00:42:58.119
and then I'm going to write up
a report that says here's what I found.

557
00:42:58.599 --> 00:43:01.960
This is the stuff. Right.
That's one level. The next level

558
00:43:02.039 --> 00:43:05.280
is, okay, do you want
me to come in and do that and

559
00:43:06.199 --> 00:43:12.000
then present to you some options for
perhaps fixing some of the things that I

560
00:43:12.119 --> 00:43:15.840
found. Now, it's important to
note that there's not necessarily a one to

561
00:43:15.920 --> 00:43:20.840
one relationship between those two things,
right. That could be you know,

562
00:43:20.880 --> 00:43:24.280
you could have many findings, but
usually the options My suggestion is is that

563
00:43:24.360 --> 00:43:28.920
if you if you present options,
there should be no more than three more

564
00:43:28.920 --> 00:43:31.840
than three starts to get confusing.
Right, So you might have three different

565
00:43:31.880 --> 00:43:38.000
options and they might solve some,
most, or all of the findings that

566
00:43:38.039 --> 00:43:43.239
were raised. Right. So that's
the O, and that's the options the

567
00:43:43.960 --> 00:43:46.639
R. Then that's the next consulting
level, and that's the recommendation. Would

568
00:43:46.679 --> 00:43:49.719
you like me to then, you
know, tell you what I found,

569
00:43:49.760 --> 00:43:53.320
give you some options, and then
make a recommendation based on the pros and

570
00:43:53.360 --> 00:43:58.280
cons advantages, disadvantages wherever you want
to call it, of each of the

571
00:43:58.320 --> 00:44:01.000
options that I presented to you,
right, and I will give you and

572
00:44:01.159 --> 00:44:05.000
I might give you my rationale.
And if I were you, I would

573
00:44:05.039 --> 00:44:09.320
do this right. But notice that
that allows us, as a consultant then

574
00:44:09.360 --> 00:44:15.320
to stay away from the D because
it's then the it's then the it's the

575
00:44:15.360 --> 00:44:20.159
customer's ultimate decision. They make the
decision, right, you don't. And

576
00:44:20.239 --> 00:44:23.159
what I really like about this model
is that it's what I've described it here

577
00:44:23.159 --> 00:44:25.519
as it's very macro. Right.
You can see where you would use it

578
00:44:25.559 --> 00:44:30.639
on a large consulting organization, large
gig right, yep. But it's also

579
00:44:30.840 --> 00:44:35.719
true in a micro example, and
let me give you one. I'll just

580
00:44:35.800 --> 00:44:39.760
use one from from my industry,
which is implement implementing accounting software as nebulous

581
00:44:39.800 --> 00:44:44.400
as that. Right. So you
know, when you implement a new accounting

582
00:44:44.400 --> 00:44:46.599
system, there's setup options, and
one of the setup up options might be,

583
00:44:46.719 --> 00:44:50.800
you know, keep history right.
It's a little checkbox in the system

584
00:44:50.800 --> 00:44:53.400
that says, keep history right.
Let's apply I'm going to apply the Ford

585
00:44:53.440 --> 00:44:58.519
model to this. This this checkbox
right. So here's what I found.

586
00:44:58.639 --> 00:45:00.800
There's an option for you to keep
history yes or no right, And those

587
00:45:00.840 --> 00:45:07.239
are your options, yes or no
right. It's my recommendation that you not

588
00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:09.800
check the box because if you do, it's going to slow your system performance

589
00:45:09.840 --> 00:45:15.480
down by sixty percent. And you
really don't need all that that history because

590
00:45:15.480 --> 00:45:19.960
there's other ways we can get that
information out of the system without tracking the

591
00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:22.239
history in the system. So it's
my recommendation that you not check it.

592
00:45:22.519 --> 00:45:28.400
But it's your decision. Got it, beautiful. I appreciate how that you

593
00:45:28.679 --> 00:45:30.800
laid that out and give us an
application that's perfect. Okay, yep.

594
00:45:31.320 --> 00:45:36.440
And so I think what's important to
note is that that really great consults are

595
00:45:36.440 --> 00:45:42.719
people that maintain this what I call
a consulting relationship, are able to maintain

596
00:45:43.280 --> 00:45:47.039
their ability not to make decisions.
What I what I find far too often

597
00:45:47.119 --> 00:45:52.280
is that people who are in consulting
roles get sucked into being a surrogate manager.

598
00:45:52.079 --> 00:45:58.000
Right they start to they start to
be being they either are asked by

599
00:45:58.039 --> 00:46:02.119
the customer to make decisions or they
just begin to make decisions on their own

600
00:46:02.840 --> 00:46:07.559
right. And by the way,
the first one is called scope creep.

601
00:46:07.599 --> 00:46:10.519
That's where the customer is asking you
for more stuff than you originally contracted for.

602
00:46:10.760 --> 00:46:15.360
Yes. The second, the second
one is called scope cep seep,

603
00:46:15.599 --> 00:46:21.079
and that's when the consultant does more
than what was contracted for it because they

604
00:46:21.079 --> 00:46:23.000
think they'd being a nice person,
got it, got it, got it

605
00:46:23.760 --> 00:46:29.320
right. And what we have to
do is really a great consultant will maintain

606
00:46:29.519 --> 00:46:32.519
that no, I don't make decisions
and really continuously look for and no pushing

607
00:46:32.559 --> 00:46:37.400
it back. Now alternatively, and
this is where we can maybe I'll come

608
00:46:37.440 --> 00:46:39.719
back and talk pricing another day,
but this is where pricing might be related

609
00:46:39.760 --> 00:46:43.960
to that, and that is that
if you're a surrogate manager, I think

610
00:46:43.960 --> 00:46:49.000
that you should have a significantly higher
price because it's a way more risky relationship

611
00:46:49.320 --> 00:46:52.760
mm hm right, whereas a consultant
is less risky. By the way,

612
00:46:52.800 --> 00:46:59.480
this is just me personally. I
detest the surrogate manager relationship. I when

613
00:46:59.480 --> 00:47:02.599
I'm asked on a consulting engagement,
I explain this theory to them, and

614
00:47:02.639 --> 00:47:07.000
I say, listen, if you're
looking for someone who's going to make decisions

615
00:47:07.000 --> 00:47:13.239
for you, I'm not your guy. Yeah right, I don't. I

616
00:47:13.280 --> 00:47:15.880
don't like that role. I think
I personally think that I lose part of

617
00:47:15.920 --> 00:47:22.920
the power of me, of my
consulting ability if if I'm the one who

618
00:47:22.079 --> 00:47:27.760
ultimately has to then make a decision. M hm right. So I maintain

619
00:47:27.920 --> 00:47:31.400
I maintain this arms distance from decision. And the reason for that is,

620
00:47:31.599 --> 00:47:37.960
and this again goes back to Peter
Block, is the prime directive, the

621
00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:45.119
prime behavior of consultants is what Block
will call what Block calls authenticity, right,

622
00:47:45.880 --> 00:47:53.920
and that is being willing to say
what you see here and feel I

623
00:47:54.039 --> 00:48:00.519
like that. That's so crisp,
right, And and it's important because authenticity

624
00:48:00.679 --> 00:48:06.079
and honesty aren't the same thing either, Right, You can be honest and

625
00:48:06.119 --> 00:48:12.519
inauthentic. Can you give you an
example? Uh? Sure? Somebody say

626
00:48:12.599 --> 00:48:15.920
said that the the the person that
you're working with. So I'm the consultant

627
00:48:15.960 --> 00:48:19.920
that the person theirs comes over and
says to me, you know this,

628
00:48:20.199 --> 00:48:24.559
Uh, this implementation shouldn't take take
long, you know, two or three

629
00:48:24.599 --> 00:48:29.960
weeks and it should should be should
be over. Don't disturb my people all

630
00:48:29.960 --> 00:48:34.079
that much because they've got a lot
to do already. And then that's what

631
00:48:34.119 --> 00:48:39.000
they'll say, right Okay, now, uh A. The an inauthentic response,

632
00:48:39.039 --> 00:48:43.199
but truthful and but honest response would
be to say to this person,

633
00:48:43.519 --> 00:48:47.280
you know, hey, your boss
really wants this done, right. Okay,

634
00:48:47.679 --> 00:48:52.280
we've got to get this done.
Your boss is asking is is is

635
00:48:52.039 --> 00:48:54.719
the one who's really driving this and
wants to make this done? Right?

636
00:48:55.079 --> 00:48:58.639
That's truthful? Right? Well,
let's say it's truthful, right, say

637
00:48:58.639 --> 00:49:00.800
the boss does want it want done, and it's but it's not authentic because

638
00:49:00.840 --> 00:49:05.880
authentic doesn't deal, It doesn't deal
at all. Again, I'm not being

639
00:49:05.880 --> 00:49:09.280
willing to say what I see,
what I hear, and what I feel,

640
00:49:09.599 --> 00:49:15.079
and what I might feel is this
guy thinks I'm an interruption, got

641
00:49:15.119 --> 00:49:23.079
it right? So the authentic response
is you seem to be treating this as

642
00:49:23.119 --> 00:49:28.280
an interruption. If if if it
is, perhaps we should reassess the timing.

643
00:49:29.320 --> 00:49:32.239
Hmm. So what's fascinating about this
for me ed listening to you talk,

644
00:49:32.360 --> 00:49:36.000
is that what we would say within
asignium is that where you're also you're

645
00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:38.039
capturing the foreground of the conversation as
well as the background, the stuff that's

646
00:49:38.039 --> 00:49:44.559
swirling in the back that informs what
what is actually presented in the foreground.

647
00:49:44.679 --> 00:49:46.760
That's fascinating. Yeah, that's that. That's a good way to put it

648
00:49:46.800 --> 00:49:51.599
as well. And what Block would
say is it's your obligation as a consultant

649
00:49:52.320 --> 00:49:57.840
to to bring those things to the
forefront to talk about those things and when

650
00:49:57.960 --> 00:50:01.039
when you when you see here and
feel them, you need to express them.

651
00:50:01.159 --> 00:50:06.559
That's and that that is what authenticity
is. And Block would go further

652
00:50:06.599 --> 00:50:09.239
and say, that is what makes
you a great consultant. That is where

653
00:50:09.239 --> 00:50:14.000
you derive your power, so to
speak, as a consultant, is your

654
00:50:14.079 --> 00:50:19.440
your ability to be completely authentic mm
hmm. And there and that takes something,

655
00:50:19.599 --> 00:50:22.039
ed right, To be able to
live in that space and deliver consulting

656
00:50:22.039 --> 00:50:25.760
from that space takes something. It
takes energy, it takes presence, it

657
00:50:25.800 --> 00:50:30.800
takes really paying attention and then and
then being able to find a way to

658
00:50:30.920 --> 00:50:35.639
articulate what it is that you sense, feel, think, et cetera,

659
00:50:36.400 --> 00:50:38.599
and to relate it back to our
earlier concepts. It takes. It takes

660
00:50:38.639 --> 00:50:44.440
the ability to self regulate and lower
one's own anxiety level about the situation.

661
00:50:45.039 --> 00:50:50.400
One of the one of the things
that I talk about when I I I've

662
00:50:50.440 --> 00:50:52.320
done like a four or five day
consulting class, and I must say this

663
00:50:52.440 --> 00:50:57.960
at least three times, and that
is, if you are conflict averse,

664
00:50:59.280 --> 00:51:02.440
if you if you if you get
break into a sweat at the thought of

665
00:51:02.519 --> 00:51:08.559
conflict situations, you should not go
into consulting. I was actually just thinking

666
00:51:08.639 --> 00:51:12.599
the same thing when we were talking
about when you were talking about managing the

667
00:51:12.599 --> 00:51:17.639
anxiety piece, because I've certainly found
myself in situations where what I found and

668
00:51:17.679 --> 00:51:22.039
then the options that I would present
in stead of the recommendations I might make

669
00:51:22.119 --> 00:51:25.519
would be anxiety producing for me because
they would all be hard. All those

670
00:51:25.559 --> 00:51:31.000
recommendations would be hard. And so
I really appreciate you presencing this for us,

671
00:51:31.079 --> 00:51:34.559
because you're right, it's not for
the faint of heart, and if

672
00:51:34.599 --> 00:51:37.639
you are conflict a verse, or
if it just really makes you break out

673
00:51:37.639 --> 00:51:42.320
in hives, probably isn't the best
job for you. That's right, And

674
00:51:43.079 --> 00:51:47.679
to what I think the example is
that many people who are who have a

675
00:51:47.760 --> 00:51:52.480
high level of what is sometimes called
domain expertise, what sometimes some of us

676
00:51:52.519 --> 00:51:58.159
would just call technical expertise right in
a particular situation, whether it's an accountant

677
00:51:58.320 --> 00:52:01.039
right has a high degree of of
accounting knowledge, a lawyer who has a

678
00:52:01.119 --> 00:52:06.079
high degree of understanding of the law, of a medical doctor who has a

679
00:52:06.119 --> 00:52:09.280
high degree of understanding of the human
body and how medicines interact with one another.

680
00:52:09.760 --> 00:52:14.840
But that and those there are technicians. And I think that that technicians

681
00:52:14.840 --> 00:52:17.000
are great. When we need technicians, we should have lots of technicians around.

682
00:52:17.360 --> 00:52:24.639
But great technicians don't necessarily make great
consultants, right, because not all

683
00:52:24.719 --> 00:52:34.320
consultants have the ability to keep in
equal proportion both the technical problem and the

684
00:52:34.360 --> 00:52:38.880
emotional well being of the person that
they're working with, right, And a

685
00:52:38.960 --> 00:52:44.239
consultant has to be able to manage
both of those things, not just provide

686
00:52:44.280 --> 00:52:52.000
a technical solution, but also provide
a technical solution and be able to effectuate

687
00:52:52.039 --> 00:52:54.199
the emotional well being of the person
with whom they're interacting. M. H.

688
00:52:54.800 --> 00:52:58.920
I really appreciate how you distinguish that
ad because I think you're absolutely right.

689
00:52:58.960 --> 00:53:02.320
Having that technical expertise, he's in
addition to really that emotional intelligence and

690
00:53:02.360 --> 00:53:06.800
depth is critical. I completely see
that, and I think that was important

691
00:53:06.800 --> 00:53:09.119
to presence as well for listeners who
might be considering maybe should I be a

692
00:53:09.159 --> 00:53:12.639
consultant? Or am I a good
consult or? How could I be better?

693
00:53:13.400 --> 00:53:15.559
Yeah? Yeah, And look,
this there's this is not a moral

694
00:53:15.639 --> 00:53:21.559
judgment against anybody, right, it's
this is this is just a what I

695
00:53:21.599 --> 00:53:23.039
what I say after I mentioned that, Hey, listen, if you're if

696
00:53:23.079 --> 00:53:27.159
you are, if you're conflict averse. Now, by the way, you

697
00:53:27.159 --> 00:53:30.599
don't have to be Rocky Balboa,
right, looking for a fight. That's

698
00:53:30.639 --> 00:53:34.599
not that's not what I'm talking about, right, But you just you just

699
00:53:34.639 --> 00:53:37.679
have to be comfortable in conflict situations. And I say, look, don't

700
00:53:37.679 --> 00:53:42.960
go into consulting because if you do, you're gonna die sooner, like right,

701
00:53:43.000 --> 00:53:47.119
You're going to die earlier, and
then you should. I I completely

702
00:53:47.159 --> 00:53:51.000
get that. And here we are, by the way, it's we're coming

703
00:53:51.039 --> 00:53:52.480
to the the very end of the
show, and I want to be sure

704
00:53:52.519 --> 00:53:55.559
and give you the last words.
So if you want to finish that thought

705
00:53:55.679 --> 00:53:59.239
or say something else, but I
want to make sure that I give you

706
00:53:59.280 --> 00:54:01.400
a chance to if you will give
you the last word here and leave our

707
00:54:01.440 --> 00:54:05.599
listeners with whatever you think would be
useful for them to help them better connect

708
00:54:05.599 --> 00:54:07.559
with their work in a more meaningful
and productive way. What else would you

709
00:54:07.599 --> 00:54:10.119
like to say? First of all, I just I would just like to

710
00:54:10.119 --> 00:54:15.199
express my gratitude to you for having
having me on the show. But then

711
00:54:15.840 --> 00:54:19.480
and in that vein and to tie
it together and hopefully a nice little package.

712
00:54:20.000 --> 00:54:23.719
One of one of the ways that
you can manage your own anxiety is

713
00:54:23.800 --> 00:54:30.079
to think about some someone or something, uh, for for which or for

714
00:54:30.159 --> 00:54:36.039
whom you are, you are grateful. And in thinking about that and thinking

715
00:54:36.079 --> 00:54:43.119
about gratitude, that is a is
a natural propellant or not propellant, and

716
00:54:43.199 --> 00:54:47.840
a natural uh A natural way to
lower one one's own anxiety is think about

717
00:54:47.840 --> 00:54:51.960
gratitude. So thank you very much
for having me on your show. What

718
00:54:52.119 --> 00:54:54.000
a fantastic way to finish that,
no surprise, thank you for being my

719
00:54:54.079 --> 00:54:58.360
guest. It has been a delight
for me and I've learned several things from

720
00:54:58.400 --> 00:55:00.960
you. So hopefully no bill come
in in the mail, thank you very

721
00:55:00.079 --> 00:55:05.559
much, not at all all right, great and listeners. If you want

722
00:55:05.559 --> 00:55:07.280
to learn more about Ed Kles and
all he's up to, you might just

723
00:55:07.360 --> 00:55:14.360
check out his blog It's Edcless dot
com, that's ed k l E s

724
00:55:14.360 --> 00:55:16.559
s dot com, or go to
Twitter and follow him there. He's just

725
00:55:16.840 --> 00:55:22.639
Ed Kles. Join us next week
for another nourishing conversation and remember that work

726
00:55:22.679 --> 00:55:30.119
is one third of our lives,
So let's work on purpose. We hope

727
00:55:30.159 --> 00:55:34.920
you've enjoyed this week's program. Be
sure to tune into Working on Purpose,

728
00:55:35.039 --> 00:55:39.119
featuring your host Elise Cortes, every
Wednesday at six pm Eastern Time three pm

729
00:55:39.159 --> 00:55:44.840
Pacific time on the Voice America Empowerment
Channel. This week, find your life's

730
00:55:44.840 --> 00:55:45.159
purpose at work