Healing Leadership That Creates Vision and Strategy

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There are some people that make their
work just another thing they have to do,

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and there are those that make their
work something that they want to do.

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Welcome to Working on Purpose with your
host Elise Cortez. In our program,

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we provide guidance and inspiration from those
people who have found deeper meaning and

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personal connection to their work life.
It's beyond nine to five. It's working

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on Purpose. Now Here is your
host, Elise Cortez. Welcome back to

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the Working on Purpose Show. Thanks
for tuning in again this week. I'm

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your host, Elise Cortez, joining
from Dallas, Texas, which is home

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based for me. This program is
all about helping people more meaningfully and productively

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connect with their work and equipping organizations
due to the same for their employees,

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and so I brip on guests who
have a particular perspective or experience that I

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think expands the conversation, as well
as drawing on my own meaning and work

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research I've been doing over the last
fifteen years. I'll get to the program

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in just a sec. About me, thank my media partner and sponsor,

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jobbing dot com. They are the
leading locally focused job board in the nation

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and they are dedicated to helping employers
find quality talent in their own backyard,

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while giving job seekers control over their
search they can find work close to home.

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Great partnership. Thank you jobbing dot
Com with us this week I have

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Ed Kless, who is the Senior
Director of Partner Development and Strategy at Sage.

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He develops and delivers curriculum for Sage
Business partners on the art and practice

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of small business consulting, including the
Sage Consulting Academy, Business Strategy and Customer

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Experience workshops. Ed is the author
of The Soul of Enterprise Dialogues on Business

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in the Knowledge Economy, which is
a compendium of a few of the episodes

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of his Voice America talk show The
Soul of Enterprise Business in the Knowledge Economy

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that he hosts with Ron Baker,
founder of the Various Stage Institute, where

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Ed is also a senior Fellow.
Today, Ed joins us from Dallas,

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Texas. Ed, Welcome to Working
on Purpose. Well, thanks at least

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thanks for having me. If this
is just great gobs of fun, right,

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can I just tell my listeners how
I picked you up? Yeah?

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Sure, picked you up because I
got draft. I drafted off a fantastic

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event that you and Ron hosted here
and actually Allen Texas, and I was

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so impressed with the with the with
the with the very stage imposing that the

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two of you put on, and
when I saw you speak, and just

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how you interact with the crowd,
I'm like, you gotta come on my

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show at you just have to.
So that's filling the rest that I missed.

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What else did I miss about how
I met you? Oh? Well,

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now that's that's probably the gist of
it, you know, go Alan

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Eagles. So we're good to go
on that. I'm just happy to be

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joining you today and it's fun to
be in the same state, even though

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we're still on Skype, so I
know it's it's great. I love that.

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I absolutely love that. So before
we get into the topics, I

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want to talk about about healing leadership. I want to talk about creating vision

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and strategy and consulting theory and practice. But before we do, would you

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just say a little something to our
listeners. One of the things that just

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got me about you, it's just
how you you literally skip and play through

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life and work. And so you
had mentioned that the work that you do

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at Sage is just you just get
to be you, and they kind of

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pay for it. So would you
see a bit more about that? Yeah,

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I and my wife hates it when
I describe it this way because she

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says it sounds a bit conceited,
and it sort of does. But I

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don't know how I made this work. But in my almost now fifteen years

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at Sage, I have somehow carved
out a niche and my job is effectively

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being at Cless. That's what I
do. Where else would you be able

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to host a radio show, do
a podcast, go on speaking events all

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over the country and indeed the world, and get paid to do it.

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And I'm not exactly sure how I
did it. It wasn't a conscious effort

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on my part, except to say
that I really try to just focus on

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doing what I love doing and let
the rest follow. I was hired at

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Sage to do something completely different,
which was recruit partners for Sage, but

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then that morphed into just helping our
partners organizations that either resell or recommend our

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software, And next thing you know, I turned this into this this great

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gig where I just have a lot
of fun and it's it's it's fantastic.

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I just love my job. Well, and that's another reason that I wanted

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to have you on the show.
And of course it is because you're literally

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you really are kind of working on
purpose. You're just kind of being you

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and you get to walk through life
like that and somebody pays you for it.

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And I think most of us would
like to be able to find a

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gig like that. So I wanted
to be sure and have that be present

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for our listeners because I think it
gives them hope that there really is a

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way for them just to if they
could if they can find a way to

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target that and see where the value
is for that, thank if something like

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that that would make I think the
world would be a better place if more

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of us could do that. I
think you're right. And by the way

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I stole this, I saw an
article I do know seven or eight years

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ago on this. I'm a huge
New York Mets fan. I'm originally from

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from the New York metropolitan area,
huge mess fan, and I saw that

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the New York Mets had had hired
one of their their aging stars. They're

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people who who'd been around for years
in the seventies and even the early eighties.

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This guy by the name of Rusty
Stabs La Grand Range, and they

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hired they hired, they hired him
to be Rusty Stab. That was his

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job title, right, In other
words, he was he was a corporate

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ambassador for them. That's what he
did. But but in this article they

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said, we hired him to be
Rusty Stub. That's what we hired him

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to do, and that that always
stuck with me, and I don't know,

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I guess that that just has played
into how I've gone about doing what

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I do. Is that, you
know, I focus every day on on

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being the best ed class I can
be, and it seems to work out.

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Though, Oh my gosh, I
love that, And if I remember

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it, I'm gonna I'm gonna pull
out a book that I'm reading right now

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that gets to just that very thing, being the best version of ourselves.

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By the way, it's just awesome. So maybe on the next break,

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I'll grab that and just pull it
out for our listeners since you brought it

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up. But before we get to
that next break, let's talk about leadership,

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and specifically, you mentioned healing leadership
and you had me at healing.

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I'm really interested to hear your perspective
on this ed What do you got.

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Yeah. This is a topic I'm
extraordinarily passionate about. And it was first

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shared with me by a or still
my mentor, by the name of Howard

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Hanson, who's written a book called
Healing Leadership with his now deceased partner,

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Steve Jesky. And it's a double
entendre. It's a double entendre. In

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this word, healing leadership means that
leadership itself as a concept needs to be

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healed. It's it's broken, it's
really broken, and it needs to be

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healed. It needs to be fixed. And the other thing. The other

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the other meaning of this phrase is
that when done correctly, leadership inside business

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organization can be healing. We can
actually heal some of the wounds that people

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bring with them to work if if
leadership has done well at work. In

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fact, Steve, who has said
has now walked on, as Steve wanted

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us to say about him, he
believes that the only place where we can

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have healing in the world is in
small and medium business, So or I

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should I should say this entrepreneurial businesses. And his rationaleis this, and I

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think this is absolutely fascinating. Every
other institution that you can think of government,

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certainly not even most not not for
profits, large not for profits,

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the churches, synagogues, temples,
that they are all interested in preserving the

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status quo. That's what their job
is, right, I can see that,

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yep, and large organization has become
the same thing. Right. Over

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time, the larger the organization becomes, the less entrepreneurial it is, and

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therefore it is becomes more interested in
preserving the status quo. So therefore they

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cannot break out of the mold of
preservation of the status quo because that's what

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they're there to do, that's what
they exist to do. Now, in

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some cases, there's nothing wrong with
the status quo, like the you know,

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the Catholic Church, for example,
has been around for two thousand years,

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and they've preserved themselves pretty well,
weathering lots and lots of storms over

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the course of those two millennia.
But the point is is that they can't

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get out of this notion of preserving
that status quo, preserving the past.

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And entrepreneurialism is about the future and
about changing things and if you're and because

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of that, it's only the entrepreneurial
organization that can really be the place where

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healing leadership can take place. Okay, this is fascinating. So this is

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not quite what I expected you to
say, But I don't know what you

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were going to say, Ed.
Actually that's why I ask you the question,

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what's healing leadership? I thought that
you were going to talk a little

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bit about just how it is that
leaders can really cultivate the best in people,

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et cetera. And I think that's
probably the part of what you were

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saying there. But the other piece
that I wanted to get to from our

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vantage point and insignium is we're really
big on the notion of inspirational leadership and

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the idea that so much of leadership
today is so flat and lacking inspiration.

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Now, if we add the healing
piece to that, I really like that.

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I've never heard of this before,
Ed, but I like it.

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It makes sense to me. And
so you said they it was Howard Hansen

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was the name of the person who
wrote book. Okay, h A N

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S E N not o N E
N okay. And I'll certainly happy to

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send you a link to it,
and you could, you know, put

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it up if you have show notes
or whatever on that. But and we

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we've actually had Howard Howard on the
show on our Show a couple of times

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too. So if that might be
interesting to listeners, to tune in.

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But here's where Howard and Steve got
their inspiration from that this you know,

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there's there's several links here. The
book that inspired them is called A Failure

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of Nerve Leadership in the Age of
the Quick Fix by Edwin Friedman. Friedman

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was a or he because he's deceased
too, was a family therapist, and

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he's the one who really came up
with this discovery. And in fact,

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he loves the word inspiration, and
inspiration, by the way, means to

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breathe life into. Yes, I
know, I love that, so so

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it's a great it's a great word
for it. So it's a it's about

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breath to, you know, to
breathe into. But Freedman's famous quote is

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this the colossal misunderstanding of our time. First of all, I love that

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word colossal. The colossal misunderstanding of
our time is the assumption that insight will

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work with people who are unmotivated to
change. Wow. And yeah, and

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that's one of those statements that you
read that and you go, okay it

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the light really does suddenly come on, and it's this whole notion that look

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and if you think about it in
your in your personal relationships, whether this

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be a spouse, significant other children, you know, especially teenage children or

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adult children, in our in our
workplaces, in our communities and churches,

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even in international relations. Right,
this quote is true. I mean,

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after all, just not to get
political, but but you know, back

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in the Gulf War or the or
the Iraqi war, what what what did

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Saddam Hussein miss about? If you
don't let the UN inspectors in, we're

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taking you out? Right? What
did he miss? Right? So it's

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a great example of he was unmotivated
to change. So even it doesn't matter

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what the insight is going to be, there's no there's nothing that you can

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say to someone who is motivated to
change that's going to give them that sudden

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spark. Right. So I don't
I don't believe that we can motivate others.

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I don't. I don't believe that
that accountability is something that is imposed,

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right. Accountability has to be chosen. I choose to be accountable to

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other people. People can't make me
be accountable. That's that's one of the

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most ridiculous notions that's taking place in
modern business. This I hear it all

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the time and meetings. How do
we get those people to be accountable?

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You don't. You don't get them. You do what you're talking about,

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which is inspire people and if so, they choose to be accountable. I

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completely agree with that. And what's
coming into my head as you talk at

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and I knew this is going to
be a yummy, juicy conversation, so

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thank you already, is this whole
idea of the push pull motivation. So

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it's like when we're having a conversation
with somebody and that other person says something

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interesting, we can't help ourselves.
We lean into it, right, We

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lean into the conversation. And that's
what I'm getting when I hear you talk

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is when somebody is incented or motivated
to change or wants to be accountable,

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they're leaning into that situation or that
that that opportunity. That's how I'm seeing

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it. Yeah, And and Freedman
then goes further. He says, well,

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if that's true, if the colossal
misunderstanding of our time is the assumption

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that insight will work with people who
are unmotivated to change, If that's true,

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then what do you do? Right? What do you do? But

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because because the reaction is but I
want to change people, you see,

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that's what I want. I want
to I want to fix my teenage son,

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who's you know, having a problem
with alcohol or drugs or it has

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a bad girlfriend or something. Right, I want him, I want to

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manipulate him, right, And the
and and Freedman's answer is very simply.

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It says, look this this,
here's all you can do if you are

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interested in continuing the relationship, remain
connected to the person, and work on

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changing yourself rather than trying to change
them. I like that. That's it.

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That's like, that's all you can
do. And but people are like,

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well, what else is there?
What's the five steps? Right?

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What's what's the clickbait response? Right? Yeah, what are the what are

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the three things that every leader needs
to know? No, that's it,

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and and and then Friedman says,
and if you and here's here's the tough

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love portion. If you don't care
about the relationship, if the relationship has

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become too far toxic, too toxic, then you just end the relationship.

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That's your only choice. I really
get that. Oh my gosh. And

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I can tell you that I've had
a personal recent example of having to do

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that, and it's it's hard.
It's really hard to end a toxic relationship

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like that in the business sense,
but it's so important for cleaning. Oh

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my gosh. So going back to
the healing piece of what you've been talking

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about, can you kind of help
us tie together some of those concepts for

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our listeners. Yeah? Sure.
And the notion is is that that leadership

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as that with that being the foundational
principle is about being a non anxious presence.

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M wow, that's great. And
Howard and Steve have this great two

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by two. You know, you
have anxiety on one side, so either

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anxious or non anxious, and then
the other the other one is present,

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non present, and that he said
those that they believe those are the four

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types of leaders So what you're looking
for is you're looking for people who are

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non anxious but present, right,
So don't don't hype up the anxiety,

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but rather lower the anxiety in a
situation, but are also fully present and

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there, and that's what we shoot
for. Now. What's great about this

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is they say that there are extraordinary
problems with this a non anxious present leader

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should expect sabotage. Interesting Why because
because people who are who are anxious want

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to enroll others in their anxiety,
so tricks what they want to do.

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So that you should expect sabotage.
That's going to be part of it.

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If you're leading, well, there
is going to be high amounts of anxiety,

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There is going to be i'll sabotage
from other people. There is going

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to be conflict that and that means
you're leading well. Wow, so that

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is so great for our listeners to
hear. This is great and it's probably

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shaking a few of them up.
So and believe it or not, can

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you if you can imagine we've already
blown through our first segment here, it's

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time for a break already. I
don't know how it happens, righty to

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evaporate it. So I'm your host, Elice Cortez. We've been on the

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air with Ed Kless, who is
a senior director and partner excuse me,

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the senior director of Partner Development and
Strategy at Sage, where he develops and

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00:16:56.000 --> 00:17:00.559
delivers curriculum for Sage business partners on
the art and practice of small business consulting.

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He is also the author of The
Soul of Enterprise Dialogues on Business in

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00:17:03.880 --> 00:17:07.319
the Knowledge Economy, which is a
compendium of a few of the episodes of

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00:17:07.359 --> 00:17:11.200
his Voice America talk show of the
same name that he hosts with Ron Baker.

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We've been talking a bit about his
perspective on healing leadership, and after

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this next segment, we're going to
talk about vision and strategy. Stay with

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us, flop you right back,
It's your world, Motivates, Change,

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00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:48.359
Succeed. Voice America Empowerment dot com. Alice Cortez as a speaker and engagement

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and development catalyst. She designs and
delivers professional development, leadership and engagement workshops

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00:17:53.440 --> 00:17:59.160
and can bring her expertise to your
organization. She will help ignite meaningful development

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00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:03.319
within your work that will increase employee
engagement, performance and retention. To learn

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00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:07.240
more or to invite Elise to speak
to your organization, please visit her at

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00:18:07.359 --> 00:18:12.759
www dot Elise Cortez dot com.
She would welcome the opportunity to help get

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00:18:12.799 --> 00:18:18.759
your employees working on purpose. Are
you ready to tackle the rules of business?

248
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He may think you're doing everything by
the book, following your own best

249
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practice beliefs, bringing in endless consultants, only to find that your business is

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not moving forward. That's where you
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are going wrong. Enter business Rules
with host Peter Feinstein. Peter and his

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guests will break it all down for
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Listen Wednesday's at eight am Pacific time
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Tune in every week for Sacred Exploration
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keep up with what's empowering the world. Voice America Empowerment. This is working

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on Purpose with Elise Cortez. To
reach our program today, please call in

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to one triple eight three four six
nine one four one. Again, that's

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one four one. You may also send

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an email to Elise ali Se at
Elise Cortez dot com. Now back to

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00:19:56.440 --> 00:20:02.440
working on Purpose. Thanks for staying
with us, and welcome back to working

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on Purpose if you're just joining us. My guest is Ed Kless, who

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is a Senior director of Partner Development
and Strategy at Sage. He develops and

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delivers curriculum for Sage Business partners on
the art and practice of small business consulting,

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00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:18.759
including the Sage Consulting Academy, Business
Strategy and Customer Experience Workshops. It

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is the author of The Soul of
Enterprise Dialogues on Business in the Knowledge Economy,

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which is a compendium of a few
of the episodes of his Voice America

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talk show of the same name that
he hosts with Ron Baker. I'm your

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host of these, Cortez So,
and we were talking before about your notion

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of healing leadership, and on the
break, I wanted to make sure that

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there wasn't something else you wanted to
presence. There is one more thing you

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wanted to talk about? What is
Yeah? I mentioned a word anxiety,

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and I wanted to talk a little
bit about that, because that I think

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is the one of the more important
things that we need to recognize in business

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and leadership today, and that is
anxiety of different situations. Anxiety and create

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civity are always inversely proportional to each
other. Right, the more anxious you

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are, the less creative you will
be, yea. And you can't turn

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on creativity. In fact, trying
to turn on creativity makes you more anxious.

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Right, you go, I need
to be creative now, right,

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so that that that that doesn't work. But what we can do is we

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can lower our anxiety about situations.
Now, anxiety and stress are not the

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same thing either. That's another thing
that people mistake. Right, you can

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you can still be in a highly
stressful situation, but lower your anxiety.

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And I want to give probably the
one of the most famous examples of a

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person who is able to do this, and this This guy's name is Chesley

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sullen Burger's at ring a bell for
Yolis. Certainly does the guy the land

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of the land on the Hudson River, You bet absolutely. And this is

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this is perhaps the greatest example that
I've ever encountered of a non an just

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presence literally healing leadership, and that
he saved lives and an ability to self

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regulate and lower one's level of anxiety, you know, he he If you

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listen to some of the cockpit recordings
of what happened, it was just absolutely

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incredible. He at one point turns
to Jim Skiles, the copilot, and

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Skiles who was actually flying the plane
and turned it back over to Sellenberger after

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the bird strike, and Skiles says
this real deep baritone voice. But when

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he's but he says, you're a
plane like that when he when he's turning

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over the controls and and Sellenberger UH
tells him, Jim execute the ditch checklist.

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Now, the ditch checklist was meant
to be uh executed from thirty five

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thousand feet, right, not not
like I think four thousand, which is

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where they were right. So really
what he was doing, he was he

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was just giving Skyles something to do
to stay out of his hair, right,

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That's what he's seeing. He's like, he's like, I've got to

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do this, so let me.
Let let me take this obviously anxious person

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and give him something to do.
This is what I think, by the

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way, that that oblatricians do with
with with spouses when when when one of

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them is having a baby, right, they put they put them in charge

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of the technology. Go look at
the fetal monitor, you know, yep,

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yep, yep. Right, get
him out of my hair, all

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right? All right? So anyway, so but Sellienberger then goes about the

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business of, as he puts it, successfully crashed the aircraft. I love

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that term successfully crashed. By the
way, we need to do more in

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business. We need to successfully crash
things better, right like that? But

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but that one. If you can
look this up, there's a sixty minutes

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episode that was dedicated entirely to this, the Miracle on the Hudson I think

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it was called and and Katie Couric, being the great interviewer that she is,

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at one point asks Sellenberger. She
says, Sully, at any point,

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did you pray? And he says, no, ma'am. There were

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one hundred and fifty people behind me
taking care of that. Great. I

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am certain of that. Yes,
it's so great. Is his job was

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to successfully crash the aircraft. That
was his job, not to pray.

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Praying would not have helped, right, not, because that was not his

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job, right, right right,
Oh, this is fascinating it I love

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this. Okay, So anyway,
so that that that's the point I wanted

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to make, is that this that
we in business, what we have to

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do is focus on lowering our overall
level of anxiety, and and that that

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is really the key to Can we
be aware of our anxiety and can we

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begin to then self regulate and lower
our anxiety in difficult situations? I think

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that is so brilliant. What a
fantastic point. I'm so glad that you

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may that is? That is that
was worth the price of admission right there,

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Ed, thank you whatever that price
was. Yes, okay, really

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quick. I did find the book
that I mentioned before. It's called Perfectly

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Yourself, Nine Lessons for Enduring Happiness
by Matthew Kelly, and I'm reading it

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in preparation for another interview that I'm
doing. So it's it's related to what

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you said about you just getting to
be ed kless and getting paid for it.

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So it gets very much to this
idea of becoming more of yourself over

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time to become happy. So obviously
you are a somebody who embodies that,

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k Ed. So here we go. Okay, you're welcome you're ready to

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move on to creating vision and strategy. That was the second thing we wanted

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to talk about. You're ready,
Yeah, yeah, sure, sure,

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let's do it. What's you got? This is another area that I've I've

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spent a lot of time working with
many, many organizations on doing and that

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is creating creating vision and strategy in
their organizations. The let's first talk about

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the vision, the vision piece,
and uh, it might it might sound

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quaint, but I really do think
that, as Proverbs says, where there

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is no vision, that people perish. And I think that most organizations,

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when they lose their shared vision,
or they lose sight of their shared vision,

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is the day that they really begin
to wither and die. Some some

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fortunately do get it back right,
but but but very very few are able

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to maintain a focus on vision in
the long haul. And that which is

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why I think it's critically important work. So people who are starting out entrepreneurs

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need to develop. Uh. This
sense of shared vision and shared vision really

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has three components to it, and
these are these are kind of the traditional

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terms, but there are other there
are other other terms that are also used

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to describe this, and that is
mission, vision and values. Right.

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The first is the mission is what
you know, what why do we?

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Why? Why does every Why do
we come into work today? To do

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what? Right? And it can't
be make money because that's the result.

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That's just a result. That's not
that's not a cause, right, So

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what why why do we come in? Why do we all come into work

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today? Everyone in the organization?
And it has three really subcomponents, which

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is what do we do? Who
benefits from what we do? And sometimes

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how do we do it right?
And those are the three quick pieces of

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getting that that vision piece. And
then the next component, of course,

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is the values. And these are
sometimes words or phrases that just embody what

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the organization is and it not surprisingly
many organizations have similar sets of values that

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you know, honesty, integrity,
velocity, I've seen, uh do you

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know, treat customers well? Uh, try to make money and have fun?

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Right? These these would all be
examples of it. But to me,

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what's most important about the values and
mission piece is not what they are,

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but what they do and by that
I mean how are they used on

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a regular basis inside the organization.
Your every every person's company probably has a

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mission and values somewhere. You just
go to your if you don't know what

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it is, to the about page
of your own company's website, and you'll

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find some infinitive right to create,
to implement, to assist to whatever.

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That's usually how it begins, and
anyone in the organization can do this.

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It does not require that somebody be
a top level executive in order to make

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this happen. But if you can
find out what the mission is of the

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organization and begin to use it in
everyday conversation, you'll begin to see a

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difference made in the organization. And
the way it works is this is when

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when somebody or someone or some group
makes a decision that seems to be at

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odds with either the mission or values
of the organization, then someone has an

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obligation to say this, help me
understand how this decision we just made is

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in alignment with our value Let's say, of putting customers first. Yep,

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let me see that. And that's
the conversation. Those are the conversations that

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need to be had, right tying
this back in It requires a low level

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of anxiety to ask those questions and
to be present for them. Yes,

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and to be present for them.
And what I think is important to note

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here is that this is not something
and I'm going to repeat this, this

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is not something that only people who
are executives in the organization can do.

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Anyone and everyone, I believe has
an obligation to bring these conversations to the

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forefront. Now understand that this is
about healing, leadership and leading well,

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00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:12.039
and there will be sabotage. And
don't be surprised if the sabotage comes from

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leadership and management of the organization,
because remember, sometimes they get entrenched in

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00:30:18.920 --> 00:30:25.359
their their job is to preserve the
status quo. I want to I want

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00:30:25.359 --> 00:30:27.039
to ask something really quick on this
on this front, and this is that's

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00:30:27.079 --> 00:30:30.759
just really turning from me in terms
of the sabotage stuff. So you're saying

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00:30:30.759 --> 00:30:34.720
that that you know to expect that, so clearly there is a there's a

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00:30:36.079 --> 00:30:40.599
I think what you're suggesting is that
we are some kind of a positive contribution

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00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:45.160
by the sabotage. What can we
get through the sabotage efforts if we're if

404
00:30:45.160 --> 00:30:47.680
we if we're a leader in managing
that, well, what can we get

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00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:56.480
It's very similar to a virus in
the body, right, and that viruses

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00:30:56.519 --> 00:31:04.000
and anxiety and Therefore, saboteurs work
work very much like that. You know,

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00:31:04.039 --> 00:31:08.319
we get we get inoculated right against
stuff, so we the you know,

408
00:31:08.359 --> 00:31:15.400
the way that we've we've rid the
human population of of smallpox was through

409
00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:22.119
injecting at first a smaller version of
cowpox and then better and better vaccines.

410
00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:27.680
Right, So, non anxious present
behavior is like a vaccine. Yes,

411
00:31:27.880 --> 00:31:33.680
it gives you a sometimes a lighter
form of the disease. So in other

412
00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:37.680
words, it brings it brings the
anxiety to the forefront, but it gives

413
00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:44.680
the opportunity for the conversation to be
had that allows you to your the body

414
00:31:44.759 --> 00:31:51.000
that is the corporation and I use
that word and on purpose to to rid

415
00:31:51.079 --> 00:31:57.480
itself of the more toxic virus.
Okay, right, does that make sense?

416
00:31:57.680 --> 00:32:01.000
It does, And it's I've I've
never heard of anything like this,

417
00:32:01.160 --> 00:32:05.799
and that's I'm really really intrigued by
this. This is really really an interesting,

418
00:32:05.839 --> 00:32:08.640
stimulating conversation for me. Yet I
like it. Thank you, Yeah,

419
00:32:08.720 --> 00:32:13.039
no, this is this is this
is this is some important stuff.

420
00:32:13.960 --> 00:32:17.759
It really is, and I'm proud
to share it with you and and your

421
00:32:17.799 --> 00:32:21.519
listeners. I hope, I hope
it's helping people by the way, it's

422
00:32:21.559 --> 00:32:23.839
not for everyone. There are a
lot of people who when I present this

423
00:32:23.880 --> 00:32:30.519
material to outright reject it and are
do not like it at all. And

424
00:32:30.519 --> 00:32:34.680
I and one of the things I
when I talk about healing leadership and I

425
00:32:34.680 --> 00:32:37.640
do a presentation on it, usually
about ten minutes into the presentation, I

426
00:32:37.680 --> 00:32:42.799
will take a break and pause and
see if there's anybody who wants to leave

427
00:32:42.839 --> 00:32:47.079
the room, because there are there
are many people who are are so turned

428
00:32:47.079 --> 00:32:51.759
off by this notion and get upset
that I think they need to go.

429
00:32:51.880 --> 00:32:54.160
They need to take care of themselves. And I say, look, I

430
00:32:54.200 --> 00:32:59.440
won't be offended if you leave if
this is not for you, So well,

431
00:32:59.599 --> 00:33:05.319
what people oftentimes find themselves? Yeah, it's it's it's that actually leave.

432
00:33:05.480 --> 00:33:08.680
It's probably ten percent. I think, wow, really ten percent,

433
00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:13.759
that's quite a bit. So.
So here's what's great about that in terms

434
00:33:13.759 --> 00:33:15.799
of certainly being a leader yourself then, is to be able to make people

435
00:33:15.880 --> 00:33:22.000
uncomfortable enough with a new topic to
get them really considering and examining their for

436
00:33:22.240 --> 00:33:27.000
within their own inquiry, their perspective, and their experience of leadership is is

437
00:33:27.039 --> 00:33:30.240
in and of itself, I think
a tremendous contribution. Yeah. No,

438
00:33:30.839 --> 00:33:35.200
it's always It's always great to question
your own self, right, you know,

439
00:33:35.279 --> 00:33:37.799
it's a I do. Have you
ever heard of the Turing test?

440
00:33:38.839 --> 00:33:43.240
I have, but tell me again
more about it, because I I the

441
00:33:43.319 --> 00:33:46.920
Turing test was I think Alan,
I think it's Alan Allen t Yep Turing

442
00:33:47.000 --> 00:33:54.319
Yeph who developed some of the early
computer programs and stuff and was was very

443
00:33:54.319 --> 00:34:00.000
influential today with the with the the
coming about of artificial intelligence. He developed

444
00:34:00.119 --> 00:34:04.599
to test which was if if you
can fool a human being by a computer

445
00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:08.920
to think that what you're talking to
is another human being, right, then

446
00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:16.599
you pass the Touring test. Right? Interesting? Right? Right? So

447
00:34:16.639 --> 00:34:24.239
that that's that's the Touring test.
So that this notion of UH anxiety is

448
00:34:24.239 --> 00:34:30.559
sort of like that is can can
we can we can we fool people or

449
00:34:30.039 --> 00:34:38.440
can they best state the best objection
to to doing something in an organization?

450
00:34:38.599 --> 00:34:42.559
Right? If you can, if
you can take the other side of a

451
00:34:42.559 --> 00:34:46.199
particular issue and make somebody on your
side think that you're on the other side,

452
00:34:46.559 --> 00:34:51.039
then you pass the test. Got
it? I think that is gorgeous.

453
00:34:51.280 --> 00:34:54.119
I totally really appreciate that. And
in part and this may not be

454
00:34:54.239 --> 00:35:00.599
an immediate obvious thing to you,
ed, but my bachelor's and master degrees

455
00:35:00.599 --> 00:35:02.599
are both in liberal studies. And
one of the things that I pride myself

456
00:35:02.639 --> 00:35:07.760
in is that I, for the
most part, believe that I can be

457
00:35:07.840 --> 00:35:10.599
able to look at two very distinct
perspective and see the value in each of

458
00:35:10.639 --> 00:35:15.400
them. I think there's something too
that not always I can't tell you it

459
00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:19.320
that's always true, but I do
pride myself in at least trying to do

460
00:35:19.400 --> 00:35:22.800
that. Yeah, no, it's
it's a good thing to be in.

461
00:35:22.880 --> 00:35:25.000
And and look, this is this
is hard stuff. And just to you

462
00:35:25.039 --> 00:35:29.840
know, talk a little bit about
relate these two topics together, but you

463
00:35:29.840 --> 00:35:32.719
know, the notion of healing leadership
and then this piece as well, which

464
00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:38.320
is about vision and strategy and taking
the other side as people. I'm gonna

465
00:35:38.360 --> 00:35:45.039
say I only get it right about
three out of ten times, But the

466
00:35:45.079 --> 00:35:47.280
point is, but the whole point
is that you're you're trying to get it

467
00:35:47.360 --> 00:35:50.719
right right. That's the whole perspective
here. Yeah, I got it,

468
00:35:51.920 --> 00:35:53.280
well, believe it or not.
We run out of time again at for

469
00:35:53.320 --> 00:35:55.360
this segment. Can you hang on
to that topic for just a second,

470
00:35:55.400 --> 00:35:58.840
if we want to say more about
that, We'll grab it after the break.

471
00:35:59.119 --> 00:36:00.239
I'm at least quartet as your host, who've been down the air with

472
00:36:00.360 --> 00:36:05.480
Ed Kless, who is the Senior
director of Partner Development and Strategy at Sage,

473
00:36:05.639 --> 00:36:07.960
where he develops and delivers curriculum for
Sage Business partners on the art and

474
00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:13.559
practice of small business consulting and is
the author of The Soul of Enterprise Dialogues

475
00:36:13.599 --> 00:36:15.760
on Business in the Knowledge Economy,
which is a compendium of a few of

476
00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:20.679
the episodes of his Voice America talk
show of the same name that he hosts

477
00:36:20.760 --> 00:36:24.400
with Ron Baker. We've been talking
this segment about creating vision and strategy.

478
00:36:24.519 --> 00:36:28.400
After the next break, we're going
to talk a bit more about consulting theory

479
00:36:28.400 --> 00:36:46.440
and practice. Stay with us,
We'll be right back. It's your world,

480
00:36:46.760 --> 00:36:55.719
Motivate, Change, Succeed. Voice
America Empowerment dot Com. Alice Cortez

481
00:36:55.880 --> 00:37:01.239
is a speaker and engagement and development
catalyst, designs and delivers professional development,

482
00:37:01.400 --> 00:37:07.480
leadership and engagement workshops and can bring
her expertise to your organization. She will

483
00:37:07.480 --> 00:37:13.679
help ignite meaningful development within your workforce
that will increase employee engagement performance and retention.

484
00:37:13.960 --> 00:37:16.159
To learn more or to invite a
lease to speak to your organization,

485
00:37:16.320 --> 00:37:22.519
please visit her at www dot Elise
Cortez dot com. She would welcome the

486
00:37:22.559 --> 00:37:28.159
opportunity to help get your employees working
on purpose. Are you looking for life's

487
00:37:28.199 --> 00:37:31.440
answers? How about the meaning of
true self? Can you really be a

488
00:37:31.480 --> 00:37:36.760
better person overnight? Well? Good
luck with that now. If you want

489
00:37:36.760 --> 00:37:40.199
to know more about this insane world
and life we lead, tune into Doctor

490
00:37:40.239 --> 00:37:45.719
Gary Bell's Absurd Psychology. You'll learn
about how the brain operates under different psychological

491
00:37:45.719 --> 00:37:50.960
conditions, some common sense. Heck, you might just actually learn something.

492
00:37:51.159 --> 00:37:58.199
Listen Friday's at one pm Pacific four
pm Eastern on Voice America Empowerment. We

493
00:37:58.320 --> 00:38:01.639
all have unique experiences and outlooks when
it comes to leadership and team building,

494
00:38:01.880 --> 00:38:07.199
Yet sometimes we clash even when trying
to achieve the exact same goals. Check

495
00:38:07.239 --> 00:38:13.440
out Unleash your Inner Goldilocks How to
get It just Right. Your host is

496
00:38:13.480 --> 00:38:19.199
doctor Cass Henry. A shared journey
equal success, and every human interaction has

497
00:38:19.239 --> 00:38:23.400
the power to achieve this success by
working together. Tune in every Thursday at

498
00:38:23.400 --> 00:38:30.119
four pm Eastern time and one pm
Pacific time on the Voice America Empowerment Channel.

499
00:38:30.559 --> 00:38:42.800
Follow us on Twitter for more great
ideas at Voice America Empowerment. This

500
00:38:42.920 --> 00:38:46.880
is Working on Purpose with Elise Cortez. To reach our program today, please

501
00:38:46.920 --> 00:38:52.360
call in to one triple eight three
four six nine one four one. Again,

502
00:38:52.480 --> 00:38:55.559
that's one triple eight three four six
nine one four one. You may

503
00:38:55.599 --> 00:39:02.760
also send an email to Elise Ali
s at Elise Cortez dot com. Now

504
00:39:04.039 --> 00:39:08.320
back to Working on Purpose. Thanks
for staying with us, and welcome back

505
00:39:08.360 --> 00:39:12.719
to Working on Purpose if you're just
tuning in. My guest is Ed Kless,

506
00:39:12.719 --> 00:39:15.039
who is the Senior director of Partner
Development and Strategy at Sage. He

507
00:39:15.119 --> 00:39:20.039
develops and delivers curriculum for Sage business
partners on the art and practice of small

508
00:39:20.039 --> 00:39:24.360
business consulting, including the Sage Consulting
Academy, Business Strategy and Customer Experience workshops,

509
00:39:24.679 --> 00:39:29.559
as the author of the Soul of
Enterprise Dialogues on Business in the Knowledge

510
00:39:29.559 --> 00:39:31.880
Economy, which is a compendium of
a few of the episodes of his Voice

511
00:39:31.880 --> 00:39:35.920
America talk show of the same name
that he co hosts with Ron Baker.

512
00:39:36.559 --> 00:39:39.519
I'm your host, Elise Cortez,
So for this last segment here Ed I

513
00:39:39.559 --> 00:39:44.000
wanted to talk more about this notion
of consulting theory and practice, and if

514
00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:45.360
we have time, talk a bit
about pricing, because I know you've got

515
00:39:45.360 --> 00:39:50.599
a perspective on that. So and
you know, just aside just said in

516
00:39:50.599 --> 00:39:53.320
my introduction of you, you have
been teaching business owners this whole concept for

517
00:39:53.400 --> 00:39:58.519
quite some time. So if you
would start at a high level in terms

518
00:39:58.599 --> 00:40:04.679
of how you talk about consulting theory, sure, And and for this I'm

519
00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:08.760
indebted to a guy by the name
of Peter Block. Yes, yeah,

520
00:40:08.880 --> 00:40:12.719
I think we've we've talked about Peter
Block. I think when we had we

521
00:40:12.760 --> 00:40:19.199
were able to have lunch together.
Peter Block is is the in my opinion,

522
00:40:19.239 --> 00:40:22.800
the leading thinker on the art and
practice of consulting, what it means

523
00:40:22.800 --> 00:40:29.039
to be a consultant. And his
two great books are Flawless Consulting. And

524
00:40:29.079 --> 00:40:32.000
then of course the answer to how
is yes he But but I will say

525
00:40:32.039 --> 00:40:36.280
this, I think this maybe half
a dozen books by him. They're all

526
00:40:36.599 --> 00:40:40.280
terrific. So just google or go
to Amazon, type Peter Block and buy

527
00:40:40.320 --> 00:40:46.599
it. That's my advice. Like
that, one click, yeah, click,

528
00:40:46.679 --> 00:40:51.239
one click. Okay, So so
so let me let me start that

529
00:40:51.320 --> 00:40:54.360
at high level with with the definition
of consulting that I use and again courtesy

530
00:40:54.400 --> 00:41:00.440
Peter Block, and that is a
consultant is a person who has some influence

531
00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:06.920
over an individual, group or organization, but has no direct authority to make

532
00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:14.360
decisions. M right, yes,
And that in the end of that making

533
00:41:14.360 --> 00:41:17.639
decisions is the key is understanding that
you, as a consultant, do not

534
00:41:17.880 --> 00:41:25.920
ever make decisions on behalf of a
customer. Now, Block will contrast a

535
00:41:25.960 --> 00:41:31.000
consultant with what he calls a surrogate
manager. A surrogate manager is someone who

536
00:41:31.400 --> 00:41:37.840
acts on behalf of or in place
of a manager in an organization, meaning

537
00:41:37.039 --> 00:41:42.320
they make they're paid to make decisions. Right. They might be temporary,

538
00:41:42.320 --> 00:41:45.519
they might be so, they might
not be an employee of the organization,

539
00:41:45.800 --> 00:41:50.800
but they are paid to make decisions
on behalf of someone instead. And I

540
00:41:50.840 --> 00:41:53.880
think it's an important distinction to make
to decide which which are you? Are

541
00:41:53.920 --> 00:41:58.440
you a consultant or surrogate manager If
you don't like surrogate manager or substitute in

542
00:41:58.480 --> 00:42:01.039
a different term, it's just the
term that I use through Peter Block.

543
00:42:02.360 --> 00:42:06.159
But I think what's important to note
is that as a consultant, if you're

544
00:42:06.159 --> 00:42:13.840
truly in a consulting role, you
do not ever make decisions right. Instead,

545
00:42:14.159 --> 00:42:16.800
what I suggest and then this is
this is the kind of my work

546
00:42:16.880 --> 00:42:22.039
on top of Peter Block's work is
uh, what you do is use what

547
00:42:22.079 --> 00:42:24.960
I called a Ford model FOARD.
And it has nothing to do with the

548
00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:30.000
car I happen to drive hondas myself, but at FARD and it's the FARD

549
00:42:30.119 --> 00:42:37.480
stands for findings, Options, recommendation, and decision right. And this notion

550
00:42:37.519 --> 00:42:43.320
that that that the first three,
the FO and the R are consulting levels.

551
00:42:43.719 --> 00:42:45.840
So I can go into an organization
and I can ask well and and

552
00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:49.159
and tell them, hey, listen, is this what you want from You

553
00:42:49.159 --> 00:42:51.239
just want me to come in and
give you my findings. I'm going to

554
00:42:51.320 --> 00:42:53.679
ask a boatload of questions, and
I'm going to ask a lot of questions

555
00:42:53.679 --> 00:42:55.559
to a lot of different people,
and then I'm going to write up a

556
00:42:55.599 --> 00:43:00.360
report that says here's what I found. This is the stuff. Right.

557
00:43:00.280 --> 00:43:02.880
That's one level. The next level
is, okay, do you want me

558
00:43:02.920 --> 00:43:10.239
to come in and do that and
then present you some options for perhaps fixing

559
00:43:10.280 --> 00:43:14.000
some of the things that I found. Now, it's important to note that

560
00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:17.800
there's not necessarily a one to one
relationship between those two things. Right,

561
00:43:19.840 --> 00:43:22.920
that could be you know, you
could have many findings, but usually the

562
00:43:22.239 --> 00:43:25.800
options. My suggestion is is that
if you if you present options, there

563
00:43:25.800 --> 00:43:30.320
should be no more than three more
than three starts to get confusing. Right,

564
00:43:30.679 --> 00:43:35.960
So you might have three different options
and they might solve some, most,

565
00:43:36.119 --> 00:43:40.320
or all of the findings that were
raised. Right, So that's the

566
00:43:40.360 --> 00:43:45.679
oh, and that's the options.
The R. Then that's the next consulting

567
00:43:45.760 --> 00:43:47.719
level, and that's the recommendation.
Would you like me to then, you

568
00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:51.559
know, tell you what I found, give you some options, and then

569
00:43:51.639 --> 00:43:55.639
make a recommendation based on the pros
and cons advantages, disadvantages wherever you want

570
00:43:55.639 --> 00:43:59.840
to call it, of each of
the options that I presented to you,

571
00:44:00.519 --> 00:44:02.920
right, and I will give you
and I give you my rationale. And

572
00:44:02.960 --> 00:44:07.480
if I were you, I would
do this right. But notice that that

573
00:44:07.519 --> 00:44:13.599
allows us, as a consultant then
to stay away from the D because it's

574
00:44:13.639 --> 00:44:16.960
then the it's then the it's the
customer's ultimate decision. They make the decision,

575
00:44:17.800 --> 00:44:22.079
right, you don't. And what
I really like about this model is

576
00:44:22.119 --> 00:44:24.440
that it's what I've described it here
is it's very macro. Right, you

577
00:44:24.480 --> 00:44:28.880
can see where you would use it
on a large consulting organization, large gig

578
00:44:29.039 --> 00:44:34.320
right. Ye, But it's also
true in a micro example. And let

579
00:44:34.400 --> 00:44:37.440
me give you one. I'll just
use one from from my industry, which

580
00:44:37.480 --> 00:44:42.800
is implement implementing accounting software as nebulous
as that. Right. So you know,

581
00:44:42.800 --> 00:44:45.840
when you implement a new accounting system, there's set up options, and

582
00:44:45.880 --> 00:44:49.199
one of the setupp options might be, you know, keep history right.

583
00:44:49.199 --> 00:44:52.800
It's a little checkbox in the system
that says, keep history right. Let's

584
00:44:52.840 --> 00:44:57.159
apply I'm going to apply the Ford
model to this this this checkbox right.

585
00:44:57.320 --> 00:45:00.599
So here's what I found. There's
an option for you to keep history yes

586
00:45:00.719 --> 00:45:04.119
or no right, And those are
your options, yes or no right.

587
00:45:05.159 --> 00:45:08.280
It's my recommendation that you not check
the box because if you do, it's

588
00:45:08.320 --> 00:45:13.719
going to slow your system performance down
by sixty percent. And you really don't

589
00:45:13.760 --> 00:45:17.239
need that all that that history because
there's other ways we can get that information

590
00:45:17.239 --> 00:45:21.679
out of the system without tracking the
history in the system. So it's my

591
00:45:21.760 --> 00:45:25.840
recommendation that you not check it.
But it's your decision. Got it beautiful.

592
00:45:27.039 --> 00:45:30.039
I appreciate how that you you laid
it out and give us an application

593
00:45:30.079 --> 00:45:32.880
that's perfect, Okay, yes,
And so I think that what's important to

594
00:45:32.920 --> 00:45:37.519
note is that that really great consults
are people that maintain this what I call

595
00:45:37.519 --> 00:45:45.199
a consulting relationship, are able to
maintain their ability not to make decisions.

596
00:45:45.840 --> 00:45:49.519
What I what I find far too
often is that people who are in consulting

597
00:45:49.599 --> 00:45:54.000
roles get sucked into being a surrogate
manager. Right they start to they start

598
00:45:54.000 --> 00:46:00.119
to be being they either are asked
by the customer to make decisions or they

599
00:46:00.199 --> 00:46:05.880
just begin to make decisions on their
own right. And by the way,

600
00:46:05.920 --> 00:46:08.079
the first one is called scope creep. That's where the customers asking you for

601
00:46:08.159 --> 00:46:13.320
more stuff than you originally contracted for. The second, the second one is

602
00:46:13.360 --> 00:46:19.280
called scope cep seep, and that's
when the consultant does more than what was

603
00:46:19.320 --> 00:46:22.039
contracted for it because they think they're
being a nice person. Got it,

604
00:46:22.199 --> 00:46:27.599
got it, got it right.
And what we have to do is really

605
00:46:27.760 --> 00:46:31.519
a great consultant will maintain that nope, I don't make decisions and really continuously

606
00:46:31.519 --> 00:46:35.800
look forward, no pushing it back. Now alternatively, and this is where

607
00:46:36.199 --> 00:46:38.239
we can Maybe I'll come back and
talk pricing another day, but this is

608
00:46:38.239 --> 00:46:42.679
where pricing might be related to that, and that is that if you're a

609
00:46:42.719 --> 00:46:45.920
surrogate manager, I think that you
should have a significantly higher price because it's

610
00:46:45.920 --> 00:46:52.320
a way more risky relationship, right, whereas a consultant is less risky.

611
00:46:52.360 --> 00:46:57.519
By the way, this is just
me personally, I detest the surrogate manager

612
00:46:57.559 --> 00:47:02.400
relationship. When I'm asked a consulting
engagement, I explain this theory to them,

613
00:47:02.480 --> 00:47:06.360
and I say, listen, if
you're looking for someone who's going to

614
00:47:06.400 --> 00:47:13.039
make decisions for you, I'm not
your guy, right, I don't.

615
00:47:13.079 --> 00:47:15.400
I don't like that role. I
think, I personally think that I lose

616
00:47:15.480 --> 00:47:22.400
part of the power of me,
of my consulting ability if if I'm the

617
00:47:22.440 --> 00:47:27.760
one who ultimately has to then make
a decision, right, So I maintain

618
00:47:27.880 --> 00:47:31.360
I maintain this arms distance from decision. And the reason for that is,

619
00:47:31.559 --> 00:47:37.880
and this again goes back to Peter
Block, is the prime directive, the

620
00:47:37.960 --> 00:47:45.119
prime behavior of consultants is what Block
will call Block calls authenticity, right,

621
00:47:45.840 --> 00:47:54.039
and that is being willing to say
what you see here and feel I like

622
00:47:54.199 --> 00:48:00.719
that. That's so crisp, right, And and it's important because authenticity and

623
00:48:01.159 --> 00:48:06.800
honesty aren't the same thing either.
Right, you can be honest and inauthentic.

624
00:48:07.920 --> 00:48:12.519
Oh, can you give us an
example? Uh? Sure, somebody

625
00:48:12.360 --> 00:48:15.039
said that the person that you're working
with, who I'm the consultant, that

626
00:48:15.079 --> 00:48:20.320
the person there's comes over and says
to me, you know this, Uh,

627
00:48:21.320 --> 00:48:24.880
this implementation shouldn't take take long,
you know, two or three weeks,

628
00:48:24.920 --> 00:48:29.920
and it should should be should be
over. Don't disturb my people all

629
00:48:29.960 --> 00:48:34.079
that much because they've got a lot
to do already. And then that's what

630
00:48:34.119 --> 00:48:39.119
they'll say, right. Okay.
Now, the an inauthentic response, but

631
00:48:39.239 --> 00:48:43.719
truthful and but honest response would be
to say to this person, you know,

632
00:48:43.760 --> 00:48:49.000
hey, your boss really wants this
done, right, Okay, we've

633
00:48:49.039 --> 00:48:52.199
got to get this done. Your
boss is asking is is is the one

634
00:48:52.239 --> 00:48:55.800
who's really driving this and wants to
make this done? Right? That's truthful?

635
00:48:57.000 --> 00:48:59.119
Right? Or let's say it's truthful, right, say the boss does

636
00:48:59.119 --> 00:49:02.480
want it, want done and it's
but it's not authentic because authentic doesn't it

637
00:49:02.480 --> 00:49:07.280
doesn't deal at all. Again,
I'm not being willing to say what I

638
00:49:07.320 --> 00:49:10.599
see, what I hear, and
what I feel and what I might feel

639
00:49:10.800 --> 00:49:17.280
is this guy thinks I'm an interruption, got it right? So the authentic

640
00:49:17.360 --> 00:49:25.159
response is you seem to be treating
this as an interruption if if if it

641
00:49:25.280 --> 00:49:30.880
is, perhaps we should reassess the
timing. M So what's fascinating about this

642
00:49:30.960 --> 00:49:34.239
for me ed listening to you talk, is that what we would say with

643
00:49:34.280 --> 00:49:37.400
it in Asidnium is that we're you're
also you're capturing the foreground of the conversation

644
00:49:37.440 --> 00:49:40.360
as well as the background, the
stuff that's swirling in the back that informs

645
00:49:40.800 --> 00:49:45.679
what is actually presented in the foreground. That's fascinating. Yeah, that that

646
00:49:45.760 --> 00:49:49.320
that's a good way to put it
as well. And what Block would say

647
00:49:49.400 --> 00:49:53.840
is it's your obligation as a consultant
to to bring those things to the forefront

648
00:49:53.880 --> 00:50:00.280
to talk about those things and when
when you when you see here and feel

649
00:50:00.320 --> 00:50:04.199
them, you need to express them. That's and that that is what authenticity

650
00:50:04.360 --> 00:50:07.400
is. And Block would go further
and say, that is what makes you

651
00:50:07.679 --> 00:50:12.559
a great consultant. That is where
you derive your power, so to speak,

652
00:50:12.800 --> 00:50:17.519
as a consultant is your your ability
to be completely authentic and there and

653
00:50:17.599 --> 00:50:21.679
that takes something, ed right.
To be able to live in that space

654
00:50:21.719 --> 00:50:25.039
and deliver consulting from that space takes
something. It takes energy, It takes

655
00:50:25.119 --> 00:50:30.239
presence. It takes really paying attention
and then and then being able to find

656
00:50:30.360 --> 00:50:34.760
a way to articulate what it is
that you sense, feel, think,

657
00:50:35.119 --> 00:50:38.159
et cetera, and to relate it
back to our earlier concepts. It takes.

658
00:50:38.239 --> 00:50:43.800
It takes the ability to self regulate
and lower one's own anxiety level about

659
00:50:43.800 --> 00:50:49.760
the situation. One of the one
of the things that I talk about when

660
00:50:49.800 --> 00:50:52.199
I've done like a four or five
day consulting class, and I must say

661
00:50:52.239 --> 00:50:57.519
this at least three times, and
that is, if you are conflict of

662
00:50:57.639 --> 00:51:01.480
verse, if you if you if
you get break into a sweat at the

663
00:51:01.679 --> 00:51:07.119
at the thought of conflict situations,
you should not go into consulting. M

664
00:51:07.960 --> 00:51:10.519
I was actually just thinking the same
thing when we were talking about when you

665
00:51:10.559 --> 00:51:15.320
were talking about managing the anxiety piece, because I've certainly found myself in situations

666
00:51:15.360 --> 00:51:20.800
where what I found and then the
options that I would present in sort of

667
00:51:20.840 --> 00:51:23.920
the recommendations I might make would be
anxiety producing for me because they would all

668
00:51:23.960 --> 00:51:29.960
be hard. All those recommendations would
be hard, and I can so I

669
00:51:30.039 --> 00:51:32.599
really appreciate you presencing this for us, because you're right, it's not for

670
00:51:32.639 --> 00:51:36.239
the faint of heart, and if
you are conflicted verse or if it just

671
00:51:36.400 --> 00:51:38.280
you know, really makes you break
out in hives, probably isn't the best

672
00:51:38.440 --> 00:51:45.519
best job for you. That's right, And to what I think the example

673
00:51:45.880 --> 00:51:50.599
is is that many people who are
who have a high level of what is

674
00:51:50.639 --> 00:51:54.400
sometimes called domain expertise, what sometimes
some of us would just call technical expertise

675
00:51:54.760 --> 00:51:59.800
right in a particular situation, whether
it's an accountant right has a high degree

676
00:51:59.840 --> 00:52:02.360
of of accounting knowledge, a lawyer
who has a high degree of understanding of

677
00:52:02.400 --> 00:52:07.519
the law, a medical doctor who
has a high degree of understanding of the

678
00:52:07.599 --> 00:52:12.360
human body and how medicines interact with
one another. But that and those there

679
00:52:12.400 --> 00:52:15.679
are technicians. And I think that
that technicians are great. When we need

680
00:52:15.719 --> 00:52:20.880
technicians, we should have lots of
technicians around. But great technicians don't necessarily

681
00:52:20.920 --> 00:52:29.440
make great consultants, right, because
not all consultants have the ability to keep

682
00:52:29.559 --> 00:52:36.039
in equal proportion both the technical problem
and the emotional well being of the person

683
00:52:36.079 --> 00:52:40.360
that they're working with, right,
And a consultant has to be able to

684
00:52:40.400 --> 00:52:45.159
manage both of those things, not
just provide a technical solution, but also

685
00:52:45.360 --> 00:52:52.199
provide a technical solution and be able
to imagine effectuate the emotional well being of

686
00:52:52.199 --> 00:52:57.719
the person with whom they're interacting.
I really appreciate how you distinguish that ad

687
00:52:57.719 --> 00:53:00.079
because I think you're absolutely right.
Having that technical expert he's in addition to

688
00:53:00.639 --> 00:53:05.840
really that emotional intelligence in depth is
critical. I completely see that, and

689
00:53:05.840 --> 00:53:08.400
I think that was important to presence
as well for listeners who might be considering

690
00:53:08.400 --> 00:53:10.760
maybe should I be a consultant?
Or am I a good consult or?

691
00:53:10.760 --> 00:53:15.760
How could I be better? Yeah? Yeah, And look this there's this

692
00:53:15.800 --> 00:53:19.679
is not a moral judgment against anybody, right, it's this is this is

693
00:53:19.760 --> 00:53:22.519
just a what I what I say
after I mentioned that, Hey, listen,

694
00:53:22.519 --> 00:53:25.679
if you're if you are, if
you're a conflict diverse. Now,

695
00:53:25.719 --> 00:53:30.599
by the way, you don't have
to be Rocky Balboa, right looking for

696
00:53:30.679 --> 00:53:32.800
a fight, that's not that's not
what I'm talking about, right, But

697
00:53:32.880 --> 00:53:37.239
you just you just have to be
comfortable in conflict situations. And I say,

698
00:53:37.320 --> 00:53:39.840
look, don't go into consulting,
because if you do, you're gonna

699
00:53:39.880 --> 00:53:45.840
die sooner. Like right, You're
gonna die earlier than you should. I

700
00:53:46.360 --> 00:53:50.760
completely get that. And here we
are, by the way, it's we're

701
00:53:50.760 --> 00:53:52.239
coming to the the very end of
the show, and I want to be

702
00:53:52.320 --> 00:53:55.199
sure and give you the last words. So if you want to finish that

703
00:53:55.280 --> 00:53:59.079
thought or say something else, but
I want to make sure that I give

704
00:53:59.119 --> 00:54:01.239
you a chance to if you will
give you the last word here and leave

705
00:54:01.280 --> 00:54:05.239
our listeners with whatever you think would
be useful for them to help them better

706
00:54:05.239 --> 00:54:07.440
connect with their work in a more
meaningful and productive way. What else would

707
00:54:07.440 --> 00:54:09.960
you like to say? First of
all, I just I would just like

708
00:54:10.000 --> 00:54:14.920
to express my gratitude to you for
having having me on the show. But

709
00:54:14.960 --> 00:54:19.039
then and in that vein and to
tie it together and hopefully a nice little

710
00:54:19.039 --> 00:54:22.960
package. One of one of the
ways that you can manage your own anxiety

711
00:54:23.519 --> 00:54:31.039
is to think about someone or something
for which or for whom you're you are

712
00:54:31.119 --> 00:54:37.960
grateful. And in thinking about that
and thinking about gratitude, that is a

713
00:54:38.239 --> 00:54:46.000
is a natural propellant or not propellant, a natural A natural way to lower

714
00:54:46.079 --> 00:54:50.840
one's own anxiety is think about gratitude. So thank you very much for having

715
00:54:50.840 --> 00:54:53.239
me on your show. What a
fantastic way to finish it, no surprise,

716
00:54:53.239 --> 00:54:57.039
thank you for being my guest.
It has been a delight for me

717
00:54:57.119 --> 00:55:00.239
and I've learned several things from you, so hopefully no bill coming in the

718
00:55:00.239 --> 00:55:04.599
mail, thank you very much,
not at all. All right, great

719
00:55:04.639 --> 00:55:07.400
and listeners. If you want to
learn more about Ed Kless and all he's

720
00:55:07.480 --> 00:55:10.320
up to, you might just check
out his blog It's ed Kless dot com.

721
00:55:10.320 --> 00:55:15.440
That's eed k l e ss dot
com, or go to Twitter and

722
00:55:15.480 --> 00:55:20.440
follow him there. He's just Ed
Kless. Join us next week for another

723
00:55:20.480 --> 00:55:22.679
nourishing conversation, and remember that work
is one third of our lives, so

724
00:55:22.760 --> 00:55:32.119
let's work on purpose. We hope
you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure

725
00:55:32.159 --> 00:55:37.519
to tune into Working on Purpose,
featuring your host, Alice Cortez, every

726
00:55:37.519 --> 00:55:42.559
Wednesday at six pm Eastern Time three
pm Pacific time on the Voice America Empowerment

727
00:55:42.639 --> 00:55:45.039
Channel. This week, find your
life's purpose at work