Jan. 14, 2025

Harnessing the Hive Mind: Lessons from Bees to Unlock Group Intelligence in Business

Harnessing the Hive Mind: Lessons from Bees to Unlock Group Intelligence in Business

When change is needed to remain relevant, leaders tend to try to solve the problem with logic and other well-engineered approaches or employ a social network approach harnessing individual influencers to steward the change. What if the key to solving...

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When change is needed to remain relevant, leaders tend to try to solve the problem with logic and other well-engineered approaches or employ a social network approach harnessing individual influencers to steward the change. What if the key to solving today’s toughest challenges lies in nature? Drawing inspiration from bees, we explore how leaders can harness the power of group intelligence—the “hive mind”—to drive innovation, solve complex problems, and create a thriving, adaptive organization.

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What's working on Purpose?

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Anyway? Each week we ponder the answer to this question.

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People ache for meaning and purpose at work, to contribute

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their talents passionately and know their lives really matter. They

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crave being part of an organization that inspires them and

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helps them grow into realizing their highest potential. Business can

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be such a force for good in the world, elevating humanity.

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In our program, we provide guidance and inspiration to help

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usher in this world we all want Working on Purpose. Now,

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here's your host, doctor Elise Cortes.

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Welcome back to the Working on Purpose program, which has

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been brought to you with passion and pride since February

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of twenty fifteen, test Town. In this week create to

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have you. I'm your host doctor at least Cortes. If

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we have not met before, you don't know me. I'm

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an organizational psychologist and logo therapist, speaker and author. My

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team and I at Gusto Now help companies to enlive

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and in fortify their operations by building a dynamic, high

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performance culture and inspirational leadership activated by meaning and purpose.

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Did you know that inspired employees outperform their satisfied peers

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by a factor of two point twenty five to one.

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In other words, inspiration is good for the bottom line.

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You can me more about us and how we can work

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together at gastadashnow dot com or my personal site at

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least Coortes dot com. Heading in today's program we have

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with us Today. Shavn Michale who helps people lead change

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and her why today is better workforces, better workplaces. She

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has worked across four continents helping thousands of leaders to

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create more agile and productive workplaces. She also has been

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on the inside as the executive in charge of Culture

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Chain and a series of large multinational organizations. She is

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the author of The High Mind at work harnessing the

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power of group intelligence to create meaningful and lasting change,

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which we'll be talking about today. She joined it today

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from Melbourne, Australia, where I believe it's ten a m.

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Wednesday and it's five pm Tuesday for me, Shavon A

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hearty welcome to Working on Purpose.

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Thank you very much, Alise, and a good day from Melbourne, Australia.

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It's wonderful. It's so wonderful to have you.

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I terribly enjoyed reading your beautiful book, and I really

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have a suspicion just how much work and effort this

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put in.

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All of your acknowledges.

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Acknowledgements told me, of course that you had a lot

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of support, but I really want to applaud you for

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creating such a beautiful, well written book.

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Well, thank you so much, and I hope you enjoyed

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it and.

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That it's helpful.

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I did.

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I gleaned a lot of things from it, and one

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of the things I want to open with I think

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it's pretty fascinating. I love your whole how you situate

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the whole book. Of course, in the Wisdom from Bees,

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you got to think about bees, I got to think

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about owls, so could you talk about your fascination, Where

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did your fascination come from with bees and kind of

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a little bit of how you're leaning on it, especially

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for the work of this book.

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Sure, lis So, I grew up in Ireland and as

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a child I was fascinated by the bees as they

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swarmed in the orchard of my family's farm. And this

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fascination with natural ecosystems actually led me to a path,

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a career path studying human ecosystems. So I'm really fascinated

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by how groups operate, not just individuals, and this led

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me into a career path as I call an insider.

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But yeah, this fascinating fascination with the bees actually led

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me into a career in psychology, organizational psychology, and eventually

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to become an insider, the executive in charge of change

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in a series of multinational firms.

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As you mentioned, I.

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Really appreciate an alignevon with this idea of really relying

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on and shall we say, drawing from the wisdom of nature.

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So there's a lot we can talk about it, and I

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will be weaving some of your concepts that you got

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directly from really understanding bees as we go.

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And let's next take it then.

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To you have this this idea here that you've developed

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and you draw from when you implement change and help

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others do the same. These nine laws of group dynamics.

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I don't really know that we need to go through

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all nine of them, but it would be nice maybe

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to help give a flavor to our listeners and viewers

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as to just maybe what a few of those laws

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might be and indicate just how they really are situated

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from the wisdom of bees.

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Yes, well, at least most people when they think about change,

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they've been given what I call an interpersonal toolkit, so

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they're looking at change from an individual perspective and how

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individuals behave. But we need to add to that picture

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with what I call a systemic lens and under standing

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of how complex human ecosystems operate.

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And we can learn a lot from the.

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Bees in terms of how bees swarm and how bees

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operate when they undergo change, and from examining bees and examining.

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Human groups or human ecosystems.

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Over in many decades, I've formulated these nine laws, and

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one of them, for example, is the law of role.

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So often we're taught that human behavior is governed by personality,

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and yes, personality has an impact on our behavior, but

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so does roll and the role that we take up

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in any group or in any system.

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If you like.

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Beautiful and then if you could speak to maybe embeddedness,

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I find that one really really fascinating.

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Yeah, the law of embeddedness is really about how sticky

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change can be, because when you do things for a

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long time in any group setting, it becomes embedded. And

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that is about how it's deeply wired into that organizational

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system or into that workforce to do things in a

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certain way. So in order to change, you've actually got

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to rewire that. We've got to physically rewire how things

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are done, and that is often painful because it means

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rewiring the neural pathways in our brains. So you've got

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to understand how embedded the change is. And the more

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embedded it is that behavior, the more difficult it will

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be to bring about change.

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So beautiful explained. Then just finally one more, how about

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pattern blindness.

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Yeah, Passions are the hidden agreements between different parts of

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a group, and these hidden agreements often capture us. So

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we walk into any group very quickly we are caught

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by the patterns in that group. So I often explain

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it in this way. In a family situation. You know,

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if you're in a new relationship and you bring your

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new partner into your family for the first time, they

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can often see things that you've become blind to.

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That's just the way.

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Things are done in our family. Isn't that the same

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in all families? Well, actually no, it's not. But because

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we are part of that family, we become blind to

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that pattern. It becomes norm the norm, and the same

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things happen within the workplace. We are captured by these patterns.

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They become the norm, and we actually sometimes overlook the

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fact that they are maybe dysfunctional, are no longer serving

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the organization optimally.

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And that's one of the many things that really struck

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me about your book, Shavin. And certainly I could relate

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doing it also helping organizations to transform culture. Right, we're

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doing the same thing. We're helping to be able to

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hold a pedal. But these are in the mirror above this.

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These are the patterns that are running your organization. As

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you would say, they oftentimes aren't aware of those, And

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so I thought there was so much that we could

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take from these different laws. And as we go along

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and talk about examples of different companies. I think it

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will really help our listeners and viewers really also start

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to get the AHAs for themselves. So we'll carry on

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now what I'd love to do here. This is so

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interesting too, also as somebody who helps spirit change, not

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on the same level that you do, but I appreciated

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that you said that change failures usually stem from two

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conventional ways of thinking about transformation. Can you situate those

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two conventional and then we'll talk about the way you

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do it.

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Yeah.

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So the conventional ways of thinking about organizations are firstly,

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that organizations are machines. And this really stands from I

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suppose in you Tonian thinking in the sixteen hundreds, where

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we see organizations like clock like mechanisms where you can

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pull a leadver oil of ratchet, drive change all of these.

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Even the language that we use would indicate that we

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see organizations often like machines and in that machine metaphor,

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humans are our mere cogs in the machine that can

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be manipulated. So that's one lens on organizations, and it

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impacts how we drive change and fix things. The second

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lens is that we see organizations more as social networks,

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and this emerged from the thinking of Ja Bynes, who

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is an anthropologist studying a village in Norway, and he

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began to map the influencers in that village and he

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described them as nodes in the network. And the people

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who had more influence had bigger connections, more connections, and

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we can see the influence of this very much an

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interpersonal lens. So in the social network, you need EQ

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are emotional intelligence in order to have influence, and the

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influencers could help garner or create change, and that is

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another lens. But the third lens that I'm introducing is

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an ecosystem lens, which is that organizations or groups are

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ecosystems where each part of that ecosystem has a critical

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role to play. It's not about IQ in the machine,

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it's not about EQ in the social network. It's more

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about group intelligence in the ecosystem.

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I appreciate that.

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So the first one, the sixteen hundred early more logical,

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functional rational, of course, being the IQ space, the sort

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of nowork being the EQ space. And then of course

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you were distinguishing yours as the GQ space, which I

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think is fascinating. And you know, when we get into

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this next example about Coke. I don't know if you

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know this or not, but I don't even know if

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it's still around. But we had a very popular magazine

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here in the United States called GQ, and it was

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really it was really do you know this? It was

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you know, it was about kind of sex appeal and such,

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and so it didn't speak to group intelligence, but it

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certainly would be an attractive sort of way to talk about,

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you know, the idea of harnessing group intelligence through a

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GQ kind of lens for at least Americans as well.

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Yeah, I've heard of that magazine, but.

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It's not right right, kind of has a nice little

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fun flavor to it though, Chian right, Okay, speaking of flavor,

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let's talk now this. I was really compelled by all

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of your business examples that really showcase this this these

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kinds of different ideas and frameworks that you have developed, Shaman,

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and so the idea when you were sharing in the

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book about how I think it was Coke wanting to

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move into the UK with its you know, non flavored

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or non colored water or something like that, Can you

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share that that case and just why that case study

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and why it went so a right, Yeah.

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So, as you mentioned the hard mind at work is

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full of these sort of case studies, practical case studies.

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Because I'm an insider, I'm less interested in theory and

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more interested in practicality and how can we really bring

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about change? And one of the case studies, some of

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them are from my own experience, and some of them

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are from research on big companies where change failed miserably,

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And one of those was Coke where it was introducing

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DESIGNI into the UK market with a view to expanding

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into nineteen countries across Europe. But that failed miserably because

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of well, initially it was because of what I call

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the order giver pattern. So there were order givers in

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the Atlanta head office of Coke that were giving the

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orders of the instructions to the order takers in the UK.

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And basically the pattern, or the hidden agreen and between

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the head office and the regions within Coke at this

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time was that you take orders from the order givers.

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So nobody questioned the orders and everybody just went along

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on the tried and tested method of introducing DESIGNY into

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a new territory and assuming that it would be successful.

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But actually the case study goes into a lot of

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detail on this, but the UK consumers did not see

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designy in the same way as the US consumers, So

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context is everything, and seeing the pattern and not being

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run by that order taker pattern was the big lesson.

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But as change practitioners, it's.

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Really about not being caught by these patterns a lease,

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really seeing the pattern and being able to rewire that

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pattern before it takes you down the wrong track and

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in Coke's example, losing multi millions of dollars on a

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failed product launch.

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Hmm, I want to sprinkle on a few more details

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that I think really bring this home for a chauven

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that I took from your book.

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I am.

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I am a researcher, and I read your I read

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my guest books cover to cover. As you can see

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from the outside I sent you I I that's how

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I prepare for the show. One of the things that

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struck me is that you also talked about how you know.

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The Atlanta marketing team broke the law of multiple perspectives

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again when it used the same online ad campaign that

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it had run in the US without testing it testing

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the tagline water with spunk. Now in the United States,

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spunk means something pretty playful and fun but in the

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UK you go on to say that spunk actually means

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semen seme e n quite a bit different meaning, right,

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and and so you go on to say that you know,

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Coke must at some point have said to themselves, are

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you kidding me? How did we miss this? That's a

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pretty huge glaring miss.

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Yes, yes, absolutely a list. That was a glaring miss.

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And when you think back to the root cause of

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that mix and miss.

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You come back to the pattern.

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If you are an ordered taker in London and you're

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just being told what to do, and you're just accepting

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the rules and the instructions from head office, you're not

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going to.

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Question that advice.

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You're not going to say, well hang on, people here

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might think that spunk has a very different meaning. So that.

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Pattern was really one.

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Of the root causes of that failure and failure to

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recognize a different context and to tap into multiple perspectives

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in different regions.

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So beautifully explained Chevan, All right, let's take our first break.

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I'm your host, doctor Rele Scortas we were on the

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air with Shavon McKiel, who is an expert in helping

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people lead change. We've been talking about her beautiful book

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The Hive. Sorry I didn't write it down. Of you,

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I've got to say the Hive mind at work. I

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love the example of Coke. After the week, we're going

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to kick off that segment talking about the example of Pfizer.

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We'll be right back.

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Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning

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and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies

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visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired

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leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and

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commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite

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a lease to speak to your organization, please visit her

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at Elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get

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your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose

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with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or

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to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to

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a a Lis at a Leastcortes dot com. Now back

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to working on Purpose.

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Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to working

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on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Release Cortes, as I

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am dedicated to album creator world where people realize their

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potential at work and are led by inspirational leaders that

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help them find their greatness while we do business at

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Better is the World. I continue to research and write

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my own books, So my last one came out in

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March of twenty twenty three. It's called The Great Revitalization.

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How activating meaning and purpose can radically enliven your business,

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and I wrote it to help business leaders understand just

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how much the world has changed, what the workforce wants

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and needs from their work experience, and what you can

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do to supply that through twenty two best practices in

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your culture. You can find my books on Amazon or

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my personal site at least Coortes dot com if you

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are just now joining us. My guest is Jevon McHale.

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She's the author of The Hive Mind at Work, Harnessing

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the power of group intelligence to create meaningful and lasting change. Next,

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I really have to showcase and celebrate, of course, Thefisier example.

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I think many of us may have had some idea

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of some of the workings that really helped to bring

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the co coviineteen vaccine to life, but the way you

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describe it, and this to me, this is just also

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just really I have to celebrate the leadership behind this.

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So would you talk to us about that case study?

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Yes.

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So another case study in the book is the Fiser

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example where Albert Borla was appointed as the new CEO

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to Phizer just before the outbreak of COVID, and rather

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than being caught by the system as I talk about,

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he actually took a step back and he started to

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examine how is this ecosystem working? And what he discovered

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was that researchers and academics were all working, even the

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big farmer companies, all working in silos and he started

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to see that he would have to break down that

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siloed pattern if he was going to accelerate the development

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of a vaccine for COVID. And the previous development of

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a vaccine for months had actually taken four years to develop,

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and Borland knew that he couldn't afford to take four

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years to develop the COVID vaccine. So he introduced a

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five point manifesto, and one of those five points was

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the need for collaboration.

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And that started to.

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Rewire that siloed pattern, and people started sharing online in

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online repositories. They started sharing news of their findings or

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breakthroughs of research. And because of that sharing and that collaboration.

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Nine months later, Faiso was the first company to bring

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the COVID vaccine to market. So an incredibly visionary lead

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who saw the pattern that was running the system and

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who intervened in the system in order to bring about

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rapid change and a dismantling of that silo pattern.

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So a great demonstration release.

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Of what I call in the book group intelligence and

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group intelligence is this ability to be able to understand complex,

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dynamic human ecosystems and to intervene in those ecosystems in

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a way that brings about successful change.

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And just to bring home just really what a sheer,

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monumental effort that really was. The numbers are pretty astounding.

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You say in your book that Albert Borla had enabled

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that hive mind, but this is among seventy nine thousand

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employees infiser in more than one hundred and twenty five countries,

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and so of course embracing the idea of the intercompany

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corporation liberated from breoucracy, and most of all hard work

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to produce this honey of a success. As you say,

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I had so much fun with how you played with

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all the b metaphor in your book.

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It was just fun. It was delightful.

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I'm glad you enjoyed it, and we can learn a

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lot of your bees.

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I know clearly your whole book is just delightful. Well,

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let's do this. Let's go ahead and introduce. You have

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a process to harness the power group intelligence in your

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four step process that you call the hive lens. Let's

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share that with our listeners and viewers.

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Yes, So the book goes into a lot of detail

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on the HIVE lens. And it really is as I mentioned,

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alease moving from this interpersonal lens or this mechanistic lens

384
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that really has run change. If you think about change management,

385
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it's a lot of it has been about.

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You know, you have your Excel spreadsheet, new project.

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Manage it and you develop into personal skills using EQ

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and your change will succeed. Well, actually, those are necessary

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but not sufficient. In today's world, where change is escalating

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an ever more complex you need this GQ lens, which

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is this group intelligence lens. And I give people a

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methodology in order to develop their GQ. The first one

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is really and I call it the high lens. So

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the l in lens is about looking beyond. You've got

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to look beyond the presenting problems, which are often not

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your problems, and look for the underlying issues. In ninety

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ninety five percent of cases, the presenting issues during change

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or when you're trying to drive increase performance, they are

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not the actual issues that you're facing. So I give

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you tools to look beyond to see the patterns might

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be running your organization. The E in the lens is

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about experimenting, and I give lots of examples of how

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you can experiment.

404
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We're not living in a black and white linear world anymore.

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You've got to be able to set up experiments that

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can test your hypotheses and that can lead you ever

407
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closer to your success in terms of your delivery objectives

408
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or your change objectives.

409
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N is nudging.

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You've got to learn how to nudge for change, not

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drive for change.

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And ecosystems cannot be fixed.

413
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You cannot drive hard for change that produces what I

414
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called unintended consequences. And lastly, learn how to strengthen, strengthen

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the emerging change so that it becomes more embedded.

416
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Beautiful, and to recap them.

417
00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:36.559
The lens model so L for lenses, look beyond ees

418
00:23:36.680 --> 00:23:40.200
experiment in his nudge and as his strengthen I just

419
00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:42.160
I think there's a lot of power in having just

420
00:23:42.359 --> 00:23:44.920
a very crisp sort of acronym like that, so it

421
00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:49.079
just works in all of your whole again, you know you,

422
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I know how hard you worked on this because of

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the acknowledgment so you put forth and have some idea

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because of the books that I've written. But I really

425
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appreciate how how well organized and tait it is Shoulan.

426
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It's just beautiful. Yes, thank you for that.

427
00:24:02.119 --> 00:24:05.759
And because I am an insider and a practitioner I think,

428
00:24:05.920 --> 00:24:09.480
and the executive in charge of change, I realized that

429
00:24:09.799 --> 00:24:13.319
things have to be practical. You know, I'm not an academic,

430
00:24:13.400 --> 00:24:15.920
and that that lens is very valuable, but I come

431
00:24:15.960 --> 00:24:19.920
from that perspective of wanting to make theory. Like you

432
00:24:19.960 --> 00:24:22.079
can have a theory, but when you're actually in the

433
00:24:22.119 --> 00:24:26.440
trenches working in an organization, and sometimes the theory doesn't

434
00:24:26.480 --> 00:24:29.119
stack up. So you need practical tools and you need

435
00:24:29.160 --> 00:24:33.240
simple you know, you need the complex made simple for sure.

436
00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:35.359
Absolutely well.

437
00:24:35.359 --> 00:24:38.119
And to that end, I have to say once again

438
00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:40.519
in your book, I was really riveted by how you

439
00:24:40.680 --> 00:24:42.480
explain the Lehman Brothers downfall.

440
00:24:42.559 --> 00:24:43.160
So crisply.

441
00:24:43.240 --> 00:24:45.720
You know, there's been a lot of conversation over the

442
00:24:45.799 --> 00:24:49.640
years about that big bohemoth disaster, but I've seen very

443
00:24:49.720 --> 00:24:53.880
little commentary that, so crisply explain just how it happened.

444
00:24:53.880 --> 00:24:56.839
Can you share your perspective on just how it is

445
00:24:56.920 --> 00:24:58.960
that Leman came down?

446
00:25:00.319 --> 00:25:03.000
Yeah, So that is another case study in the hive

447
00:25:03.160 --> 00:25:07.680
mind at work, and it's really another illustration. Often in

448
00:25:07.759 --> 00:25:11.880
these complex cases, we get lots of commentary, and there

449
00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:16.000
was a lot of commentary on how did this downfall happen?

450
00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:19.920
And some people would have blamed the CEO. Other people

451
00:25:20.039 --> 00:25:25.079
might have blamed the compensation or remuneration, other people might

452
00:25:25.119 --> 00:25:28.759
have blamed the market conditions. So lots of analysts, lots

453
00:25:28.759 --> 00:25:33.160
of commentators dissecting that case study, but very few with

454
00:25:33.279 --> 00:25:36.759
what I call a systemic lens, and the systemic lenses

455
00:25:36.920 --> 00:25:41.920
really understanding how the whole ecosystem operates and the role

456
00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:45.960
that different parts were playing in co creating that disaster.

457
00:25:46.160 --> 00:25:48.960
So I take that systemic lens and I look at

458
00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:53.200
each of the parts of that complex ecosystem and how

459
00:25:53.880 --> 00:25:58.079
they stepped into a different role. So investors, for example,

460
00:25:58.160 --> 00:26:03.960
stepped into role of demander, demanding Ever more higher returns

461
00:26:04.359 --> 00:26:08.400
from Lehman Brothers and other banks, and the executive team

462
00:26:08.440 --> 00:26:15.640
and the board stepped into role of endorser of the

463
00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:20.160
executive remuneration that encouraged short term thinking.

464
00:26:21.440 --> 00:26:25.200
The executive team itself stepped into.

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The role of short term thinkers, so they were really

466
00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:31.440
only thinking about the next year and the next year's profits.

467
00:26:31.960 --> 00:26:35.720
And then the accountants stepped into the role of window dressers,

468
00:26:35.839 --> 00:26:40.279
really just covering up for some of.

469
00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:42.079
The misalignments and the practices.

470
00:26:41.559 --> 00:26:46.279
That were not meeting the guidelines, the regulated guidelines. So

471
00:26:47.079 --> 00:26:52.640
together they were creating what I called the short termism pattern.

472
00:26:53.359 --> 00:26:56.880
And this was really about the hidden agreement in the

473
00:26:56.960 --> 00:27:00.759
system that we chase short term res als to the

474
00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:06.559
detriment of longer term considerations. And that pattern was just

475
00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:10.400
running Lehman Brothers and in fact probably the many of

476
00:27:10.440 --> 00:27:14.359
the financial institutions at that time, so it was systemic.

477
00:27:14.680 --> 00:27:16.759
It was a hidden agreement in.

478
00:27:16.720 --> 00:27:20.440
The system, and we need to see those hidden agreements

479
00:27:20.440 --> 00:27:23.599
in order to be able to successfully rewire them and

480
00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:26.279
bring about lasting, sustainable change.

481
00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:30.559
We've had a couple of guests on this podcast over

482
00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:33.240
the year, Shavonne talking about the problem of you know,

483
00:27:33.480 --> 00:27:36.920
running running a business by the quarter system and how

484
00:27:37.000 --> 00:27:39.279
limited that really really is, and of course being somebody

485
00:27:39.319 --> 00:27:43.240
who champions purpose, purpose is playing the long game. So

486
00:27:43.400 --> 00:27:46.119
I really found that that that pattern that you had,

487
00:27:46.279 --> 00:27:49.640
you had explicated the short term short terms and made

488
00:27:49.680 --> 00:27:51.000
a lot of sense to me, and all the roles

489
00:27:51.440 --> 00:27:55.799
the different groups played so beautifully explained. And then if

490
00:27:55.839 --> 00:27:57.440
we go on to the next one we talk about

491
00:27:57.480 --> 00:27:59.200
what happened at Ford. One of the things that I

492
00:27:59.240 --> 00:28:01.519
think is really important about what you're going to share

493
00:28:01.559 --> 00:28:03.880
here is this is a problem that you're going to

494
00:28:03.880 --> 00:28:06.559
talk about that lives large in so many companies I

495
00:28:06.599 --> 00:28:09.279
know you know as well, And that's the idea of

496
00:28:09.319 --> 00:28:13.160
you know that the punisher mentality and punishing mistakes and

497
00:28:13.160 --> 00:28:15.279
punishing when people don't know things. And so if you

498
00:28:15.279 --> 00:28:18.119
could share that example of what was going on with

499
00:28:18.200 --> 00:28:20.559
Ford and how they were trying to test new patterns

500
00:28:20.559 --> 00:28:22.759
as well.

501
00:28:22.839 --> 00:28:26.960
Yeah, So when Alan Malally joined Ford in two thousand

502
00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:32.200
and sixty, the organization was in deep trouble and was

503
00:28:32.240 --> 00:28:36.200
facing the worst profit results and the biggest profit loss.

504
00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:38.400
In its over one hundred year history.

505
00:28:38.720 --> 00:28:44.480
So Malali was bringing his executive team together and what

506
00:28:44.599 --> 00:28:48.279
he was noticing was that every update when he brought

507
00:28:48.319 --> 00:28:52.319
them together on a weekly basis in his Thunderbird headquarters room,

508
00:28:52.400 --> 00:28:57.480
and every update that they were giving was a sea

509
00:28:57.519 --> 00:29:00.839
of green. He had developed this traffic lights where green

510
00:29:01.039 --> 00:29:04.480
was okay, you know, on track and amber and red.

511
00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:07.480
Many people would have seen this tracking mechanism, but he

512
00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:10.759
was just facing a sea of green every week after week,

513
00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:14.240
people saying it's green, it's green, it's green, it's everything's

514
00:29:14.319 --> 00:29:16.400
on track. And he called them on it and we said, well,

515
00:29:16.799 --> 00:29:19.319
how can it all be green? And we're making you know,

516
00:29:19.359 --> 00:29:22.000
we've just made the biggest loss in our history. I

517
00:29:22.039 --> 00:29:24.359
want to see more more color. Basically, I want to

518
00:29:24.359 --> 00:29:26.880
see more transparency. And the next meeting, one of his

519
00:29:27.039 --> 00:29:32.640
executive basically started to say, there are problems with one

520
00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:35.359
of the one of the products that was bringing to market.

521
00:29:35.359 --> 00:29:38.920
There are some problems in production, and.

522
00:29:39.240 --> 00:29:41.839
You could have hear you know, you could have heard

523
00:29:41.839 --> 00:29:43.920
a pin drop when he admitted that. There was just

524
00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:47.440
silence in the room because people were used to very

525
00:29:47.480 --> 00:29:52.640
negative consequences if they had admitted failure on mistakes. But

526
00:29:52.759 --> 00:29:56.039
Malali actually clapped and said, thank you, thank you for

527
00:29:56.880 --> 00:29:59.880
that transparency and for bringing that to light. And for

528
00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:02.240
sharing that with us, and now we can all help

529
00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:07.279
work on a solution to that problem. And that was

530
00:30:07.319 --> 00:30:10.400
the beginning of a shift in what I call the

531
00:30:10.440 --> 00:30:16.039
punishment pattern at Ford, where managers had stepped into role

532
00:30:16.079 --> 00:30:20.880
of punishers and employees had stepped into role of fearful ones.

533
00:30:21.240 --> 00:30:23.519
And I talked to earlier about role, the role that

534
00:30:23.599 --> 00:30:24.160
you take up.

535
00:30:24.279 --> 00:30:26.599
This is the systemic role that they were taking up,

536
00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:30.240
and the hidden agreement are the pattern between those parts

537
00:30:30.279 --> 00:30:33.400
as we punish those who make mistakes. And I call

538
00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:38.160
that the punishment pattern, with different parts stepping into different roles,

539
00:30:38.200 --> 00:30:41.000
a fearful one if you're an employee, and punisher if

540
00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:45.279
you're a manager. So mistakes were not tolerated whatsoever. And

541
00:30:45.400 --> 00:30:50.400
forward but Malali, a very insightful leader with group intelligence,

542
00:30:50.440 --> 00:30:55.039
could see this pattern and rewire that pattern, and that

543
00:30:55.240 --> 00:30:58.880
was the beginning of an incredible turnaround a forward which

544
00:30:58.920 --> 00:31:01.000
I go into in a lot more detail in the book.

545
00:31:01.039 --> 00:31:04.640
But that case study is another example of over thirty

546
00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:08.519
big patterns that are often invisible to us that I

547
00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:11.200
walk through in the hive mind of work that can

548
00:31:11.240 --> 00:31:16.640
help leaders begin to see and rewire these often dysfunctional patterns.

549
00:31:17.960 --> 00:31:20.559
And The reason that would really stuck out for me,

550
00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:23.960
Chavin is that you know, in my work helping leaders

551
00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:27.000
to develop and transform their cultures and their leadership, oftentimes

552
00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:29.960
because I'm the outsider, I can walk right in for

553
00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:31.880
the first time to an organization and I can smell

554
00:31:31.960 --> 00:31:35.880
the fear that lives in an organization. Right, You're not

555
00:31:35.880 --> 00:31:37.599
going to innovate, You're not going to perform in an

556
00:31:37.640 --> 00:31:39.960
organization like that, and your sures heck not going to

557
00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:42.519
speak up if you think something might be going awry here.

558
00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:44.880
And so I really felt like that was a really

559
00:31:44.920 --> 00:31:48.480
important case study to talk about because so many organizations

560
00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:52.799
fall preate to that, unknowingly unintentionally, and it's such an

561
00:31:52.799 --> 00:31:55.400
important problem to get to get to the bottom of

562
00:31:55.480 --> 00:31:58.839
and to start to free up and move or set free.

563
00:31:58.920 --> 00:32:03.039
If we will to use more of your analogy.

564
00:32:02.279 --> 00:32:06.720
Yeah, absolutely, And I think what the high lens, what

565
00:32:06.799 --> 00:32:08.960
I try and do in the high lens is move

566
00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:13.880
away from the blame around that because often these patterns

567
00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:18.079
emerge for very good reason and they have helped us

568
00:32:18.359 --> 00:32:22.960
as an organization to survive and thrive in the past.

569
00:32:23.240 --> 00:32:26.799
So maybe at one stage, this focus on getting things

570
00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:30.920
right and perfection and making sure everything was done properly

571
00:32:31.160 --> 00:32:34.400
was actually serving the organization very well, but over time

572
00:32:34.599 --> 00:32:38.079
it became dysfunctional and it ended up being the punishment pattern.

573
00:32:38.759 --> 00:32:43.000
And because people become blind to this. You know, you

574
00:32:43.039 --> 00:32:46.960
step into an organization and literally within weeks, you are.

575
00:32:46.839 --> 00:32:50.480
Captured by this pattern. Yes, this is the way things.

576
00:32:50.240 --> 00:32:53.119
Are done around here, this is the norm, this is

577
00:32:53.200 --> 00:32:56.640
what we do, and so often you can't even see it.

578
00:32:56.720 --> 00:33:00.960
Which is the benefit that Malali brought was she was new,

579
00:33:01.079 --> 00:33:05.720
he had a different perspective. Outsiders can bring that fresh

580
00:33:05.759 --> 00:33:10.079
perspective or that new lens to an organization and help

581
00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:12.599
you to see what you've become blind to, which is

582
00:33:12.640 --> 00:33:16.279
the great benefit the least that you and other consultants

583
00:33:16.279 --> 00:33:20.119
and external advisors can bring to a company.

584
00:33:21.279 --> 00:33:24.319
Indeed, essually went informed by some of your practices. That's

585
00:33:24.359 --> 00:33:25.920
part of the reason that I host the show, because

586
00:33:25.960 --> 00:33:30.319
I keep learning from amazing people like you. I'm You're welcome,

587
00:33:30.359 --> 00:33:32.359
I'm your host. Doctor Eli's Cortees. We were in the

588
00:33:32.359 --> 00:33:35.319
air with Shavn Mikhale, who's an expert in helping people

589
00:33:35.400 --> 00:33:37.640
lead change. We've been hearing about some of the beautiful

590
00:33:37.640 --> 00:33:41.039
case studies in your book that really showcase the value

591
00:33:41.079 --> 00:33:43.759
and practicality of her work. After the break, we're going

592
00:33:43.799 --> 00:33:45.880
to talk about a little bit about how leaders can

593
00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:49.839
become even more efficient in utilizing these kinds of practices,

594
00:33:49.880 --> 00:33:53.519
and also hear about what happened what was underneath the

595
00:33:53.839 --> 00:33:55.160
NASA make a disaster.

596
00:33:55.359 --> 00:33:56.119
We'll be right back.

597
00:34:11.280 --> 00:34:14.840
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning

598
00:34:14.880 --> 00:34:18.679
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies

599
00:34:18.800 --> 00:34:22.559
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired

600
00:34:22.639 --> 00:34:26.639
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and

601
00:34:26.679 --> 00:34:29.920
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite

602
00:34:29.920 --> 00:34:32.679
a lease to speak to your organization, please visit her

603
00:34:32.719 --> 00:34:36.000
at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get

604
00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:44.800
your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose

605
00:34:44.920 --> 00:34:48.159
with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or

606
00:34:48.239 --> 00:34:51.000
to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to

607
00:34:51.039 --> 00:34:56.440
Alise A. L Se at elisecortes dot com. Now back

608
00:34:56.480 --> 00:34:57.840
to working on Purpose.

609
00:35:03.639 --> 00:35:05.320
Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to Working

610
00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:08.039
on Purpose. I'm your host, Doctor release Cortez. I mentioned

611
00:35:08.079 --> 00:35:10.480
in the last break that my book came out about

612
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:13.039
a year ago, the Great Vitalization. What I did for

613
00:35:13.079 --> 00:35:15.480
you is I created a three page, very simple assessment

614
00:35:15.519 --> 00:35:17.440
that you can fall off my website. It will help

615
00:35:17.440 --> 00:35:19.920
you understand the extent to which your organization is meeting

616
00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:23.480
the discerning needs of today's workforce, and where you're strong

617
00:35:23.559 --> 00:35:25.559
and where might you want to shore things up. You

618
00:35:25.599 --> 00:35:28.760
can find it at Gusto dashnout dot com if you

619
00:35:28.800 --> 00:35:31.199
are just joining us. My guest is Shawn McHale. She's

620
00:35:31.239 --> 00:35:34.039
the author of the High Minded Work Harnessing the Power

621
00:35:34.079 --> 00:35:37.920
of Group Intelligence to Create meaningful and lasting change. So

622
00:35:38.199 --> 00:35:40.639
I have to tell you I was completely blown away

623
00:35:40.719 --> 00:35:45.440
by how you described just what happened with the NASA

624
00:35:46.599 --> 00:35:50.719
Mega A disaster that I remember when that happened. I'll

625
00:35:50.800 --> 00:35:53.000
let you just paint the whole situation, because you do

626
00:35:53.000 --> 00:35:54.679
it better than I do, but if you could, and

627
00:35:54.760 --> 00:35:57.199
then I'm going to sprinkle in the parts I found

628
00:35:57.440 --> 00:36:01.119
particularly interesting and worth focusing on for me.

629
00:36:01.159 --> 00:36:02.239
Anyway.

630
00:36:03.239 --> 00:36:06.280
Yeah, So, one of the things I talked about in

631
00:36:07.320 --> 00:36:10.039
the hard mind at work at least is the need

632
00:36:10.159 --> 00:36:17.639
for proper measurement during change because often we you know,

633
00:36:17.800 --> 00:36:21.320
often we forget, we forget where we started the journey,

634
00:36:21.400 --> 00:36:24.280
we forget the progress we've made along the way.

635
00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:27.920
But you need to measure and measure accurately. And one

636
00:36:27.920 --> 00:36:30.440
of the examples a give of where there.

637
00:36:30.360 --> 00:36:34.679
Wasn't this accurate measurement was the NASA story of their

638
00:36:35.880 --> 00:36:39.039
Space Mars orbiter that actually.

639
00:36:40.079 --> 00:36:41.239
It was a complete.

640
00:36:40.880 --> 00:36:45.000
Disaster and it missed miss Mars completely and is now

641
00:36:45.079 --> 00:36:48.920
lost in space literally because there were two teams working

642
00:36:49.199 --> 00:36:53.400
on this spacecraft and the mission, and one was the

643
00:36:53.440 --> 00:36:54.960
engineers based in Denver.

644
00:36:55.679 --> 00:36:56.880
They were using.

645
00:36:56.679 --> 00:37:00.920
English measurements, so they were using for example, theme and inches,

646
00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:05.400
and then the other team in California and Pasadena, they

647
00:37:05.480 --> 00:37:10.320
were using metrics, so they were using centimeters and meter measurements,

648
00:37:10.360 --> 00:37:13.079
and they didn't ever align with each other.

649
00:37:13.159 --> 00:37:15.480
They didn't share that they've made some assumptions.

650
00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:18.800
And because of the fact that they were using two

651
00:37:18.880 --> 00:37:25.800
different measuring sticks, literally this space orbiter missed its target

652
00:37:26.599 --> 00:37:32.079
and just it never landed and now literally was lost

653
00:37:32.119 --> 00:37:37.320
in space and disintegrated in orbit. And it was just

654
00:37:37.480 --> 00:37:39.719
such a classic example for me because what I was

655
00:37:39.719 --> 00:37:43.280
looking for in writing the book relice with these really

656
00:37:43.599 --> 00:37:48.760
practical examples which showcased the theories and brought them to

657
00:37:48.880 --> 00:37:51.840
life all of these things that I know from being

658
00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:55.400
a change insideer, being a practitioner bringing about change over

659
00:37:55.440 --> 00:37:58.840
the last two decades as the executive in charge of change,

660
00:37:58.880 --> 00:38:04.840
is that you need practical measures. You need case studies

661
00:38:04.880 --> 00:38:08.400
that showcase when this does not happen and what are

662
00:38:08.440 --> 00:38:10.519
the consequences. And that was one of the ones that

663
00:38:10.559 --> 00:38:14.320
really stood out for me, which really illustrates the importance

664
00:38:14.360 --> 00:38:17.960
of measurement and making sure that you have accurate measurement

665
00:38:18.079 --> 00:38:21.159
in place right from the beginning of your change.

666
00:38:22.079 --> 00:38:23.920
That would have to be another one of those examples

667
00:38:23.960 --> 00:38:26.159
where once they really understood what happened, it would have

668
00:38:26.199 --> 00:38:27.920
to be one of those oh my gosh, how in

669
00:38:27.960 --> 00:38:30.559
the world could this be so right? How could we

670
00:38:30.599 --> 00:38:33.519
have missed this? And yet it's so natural and normal,

671
00:38:33.559 --> 00:38:36.320
It's so human. You know, we run organizations by humans

672
00:38:36.320 --> 00:38:39.760
and by very are very nature. We're very messy, and

673
00:38:40.119 --> 00:38:44.000
so there's I want to extend so much empathy to

674
00:38:44.039 --> 00:38:46.920
that because I have to imagine just how painful that

675
00:38:47.000 --> 00:38:48.199
realization must have been.

676
00:38:50.079 --> 00:38:55.320
Absolutely always, what I talk about during change is often

677
00:38:55.400 --> 00:39:02.079
we face in complex dynamic ecosystems, we face unintended consequences,

678
00:39:02.239 --> 00:39:06.159
which is why the machine metaphor of organizations doesn't work.

679
00:39:06.719 --> 00:39:11.719
Organizations are not machines. They're not clocklike mechanisms. You cannot

680
00:39:11.800 --> 00:39:13.840
you know, we have this view that change. You know,

681
00:39:13.920 --> 00:39:16.000
you go from A to B to C in a

682
00:39:16.079 --> 00:39:21.159
linear logical fashion. But it's never that simple. And in fact,

683
00:39:21.239 --> 00:39:24.559
I talk about the analogy, it's more like a spider's

684
00:39:24.639 --> 00:39:28.039
web an organization and you look up and you see

685
00:39:28.239 --> 00:39:32.159
the thread of you know, there's a low engagement over there,

686
00:39:32.599 --> 00:39:37.800
the thread of customer dissatisfaction. Over here, there's a thread

687
00:39:37.880 --> 00:39:41.159
of quality issues. And down below you you might have

688
00:39:42.320 --> 00:39:44.800
board a case of forward within the organization.

689
00:39:44.960 --> 00:39:46.440
And which thread should you pull?

690
00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:49.039
You know, you know, the more you pull these threads,

691
00:39:49.039 --> 00:39:51.440
the more tangled up you seem to get.

692
00:39:51.719 --> 00:39:54.079
And it's really about.

693
00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:57.840
Seeing how that whole ecosystem is functioning and rewiring or

694
00:39:57.880 --> 00:40:02.119
repatterning that web in to create more.

695
00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:05.119
Functional and more effective organizations.

696
00:40:07.280 --> 00:40:12.360
Beautiful analogy. Well, we can't release let you go without

697
00:40:12.400 --> 00:40:14.280
talking a little bit more about really some of the

698
00:40:14.360 --> 00:40:18.719
role of leaders and how they're successful and sustainable businesses.

699
00:40:18.760 --> 00:40:21.840
Step into four. You talking about four critical roles depending

700
00:40:21.880 --> 00:40:25.000
on the task and also the timeframes. So I think

701
00:40:25.000 --> 00:40:27.639
it's useful for you to share those four roles. And

702
00:40:27.679 --> 00:40:29.920
I also recognize that you say that, you know, we

703
00:40:29.960 --> 00:40:32.800
don't just play one of them. We need to decide

704
00:40:32.840 --> 00:40:34.320
when and how we're going to play all of them.

705
00:40:34.800 --> 00:40:35.800
What are they before?

706
00:40:37.119 --> 00:40:40.599
Yeah, So I think one of the key things in

707
00:40:40.960 --> 00:40:44.320
the book is talking about role and reframing your role

708
00:40:44.400 --> 00:40:48.320
depending on the circumstance. And often we think of our

709
00:40:48.360 --> 00:40:51.360
behavior as being set by our personality, but actually our

710
00:40:51.400 --> 00:40:53.760
mental map of our role governs or.

711
00:40:53.800 --> 00:40:55.639
Behavior in a very powerful way.

712
00:40:56.280 --> 00:40:58.639
So I give leaders a framework for that, and I

713
00:40:58.719 --> 00:41:00.960
talk about four big roles that we take up.

714
00:41:01.079 --> 00:41:02.719
The first one is delivery leader.

715
00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:06.280
You know, you've got to deliver on your imperatives in

716
00:41:06.320 --> 00:41:10.079
the business. In order to gain credibility, you've got to

717
00:41:10.119 --> 00:41:12.920
deliver on your promises, and usually those promises are to

718
00:41:12.960 --> 00:41:15.239
your customer in the first instance. But that is a

719
00:41:15.320 --> 00:41:19.639
really important delivery lead role that each of us play

720
00:41:19.639 --> 00:41:20.280
as leaders.

721
00:41:20.320 --> 00:41:22.519
The second is a business strategist.

722
00:41:22.719 --> 00:41:26.719
It's not enough just to keep on running running your business.

723
00:41:26.719 --> 00:41:29.559
You've got to have a clear strategy about where you

724
00:41:29.639 --> 00:41:31.719
want to take your part of the business.

725
00:41:32.360 --> 00:41:34.639
And then there's a performance coach.

726
00:41:34.880 --> 00:41:38.000
So really focusing on how you can help your people

727
00:41:38.840 --> 00:41:42.840
to deliver on what their imperatives are. And then the

728
00:41:42.960 --> 00:41:46.239
last one is a change leader. And often this is

729
00:41:46.360 --> 00:41:50.840
one that we forget, and you've got to play your

730
00:41:51.039 --> 00:41:55.559
part and change. And sometimes leaders forget that. They delegate

731
00:41:55.639 --> 00:41:58.760
change to the experts. So they're the IT experts, they're

732
00:41:58.800 --> 00:42:02.760
the digital experts, so they're the experts on employee engagements,

733
00:42:02.760 --> 00:42:05.880
so it's their problem. But actually, as a leader, you

734
00:42:05.960 --> 00:42:09.639
must always see and take up your unique change role.

735
00:42:11.599 --> 00:42:15.239
I think that's really incredibly useful. Again, to be so specific.

736
00:42:15.320 --> 00:42:17.840
I think anybody who just heard you say that can

737
00:42:17.880 --> 00:42:20.559
get their head behind. Oh, I can see myself assuming

738
00:42:20.559 --> 00:42:22.360
that role. I know when I need to step into

739
00:42:22.400 --> 00:42:25.760
that role. Just so useful. Now, the next thing that

740
00:42:25.800 --> 00:42:27.960
really blew me away. I have to say that I

741
00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:31.519
was rather gobsmacked by this. You go on to say

742
00:42:31.760 --> 00:42:34.480
in the book that this is about reaching critical mass.

743
00:42:34.800 --> 00:42:37.719
You say, seasoned change leaders know that you must arrive

744
00:42:37.800 --> 00:42:40.480
at the key tipping point within eighteen months of embarking

745
00:42:40.559 --> 00:42:44.679
on change or risk confirming the group's cynicism. That's fascinating.

746
00:42:44.920 --> 00:42:47.079
That's an interesting number. I don't think I knew that

747
00:42:47.199 --> 00:42:47.760
number before.

748
00:42:49.639 --> 00:42:49.880
Yeah.

749
00:42:50.039 --> 00:42:52.079
Well I learned this when I was the head of

750
00:42:53.000 --> 00:42:55.480
Change at b A and Z Bank, one of the

751
00:42:55.599 --> 00:43:01.119
major banks in Australia, and we had been embarking of

752
00:43:01.199 --> 00:43:04.440
a transformation of the bank, which was the lowest performing

753
00:43:04.480 --> 00:43:07.440
bank in the country and had.

754
00:43:07.280 --> 00:43:10.960
The worst customer satisfaction. And the CEO.

755
00:43:12.440 --> 00:43:17.360
Was liaising with other CEOs and banks across the country

756
00:43:17.519 --> 00:43:20.000
and he had agreed with them that they would stop

757
00:43:20.320 --> 00:43:24.400
closing rural branches branches in the country because they were

758
00:43:24.599 --> 00:43:28.079
really needed by people in rural areas. But one of

759
00:43:28.119 --> 00:43:31.639
the other CEOs broke rank and decided, no, we're going

760
00:43:31.719 --> 00:43:34.079
to shut down fifty four rural branches.

761
00:43:34.199 --> 00:43:36.119
We don't need them. They're not making enough money.

762
00:43:36.840 --> 00:43:40.159
And that same day the CEO of AY and Z,

763
00:43:40.440 --> 00:43:44.280
John McFarland, announced to the marketplace, that he would buy

764
00:43:44.440 --> 00:43:48.519
those fifty four branches. Well, now that did never actually

765
00:43:48.519 --> 00:43:51.199
eventuate it because there were a whole lot of regulations,

766
00:43:51.239 --> 00:43:54.639
but just him doing that saying listen, this isn't good enough.

767
00:43:55.079 --> 00:43:56.199
I'm going to stop this.

768
00:43:56.440 --> 00:43:59.679
I'm going to buy those branches because the public is

769
00:43:59.760 --> 00:44:04.119
sick and tired of banks behaving badly, and our employees

770
00:44:04.159 --> 00:44:05.400
are also disengaged.

771
00:44:05.480 --> 00:44:07.039
That one act of saying.

772
00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:10.880
I'm going to buy those branches actually caused a tipping

773
00:44:10.960 --> 00:44:13.440
point in the change that he was trying to introduce,

774
00:44:13.519 --> 00:44:17.599
which was this much more customer and employee centric organization.

775
00:44:17.840 --> 00:44:21.960
So people began to move from cynicism to thinking, well,

776
00:44:22.119 --> 00:44:24.400
this is a person that maybe I can believe in.

777
00:44:24.559 --> 00:44:27.480
This is a change that perhaps is worth investing in.

778
00:44:27.960 --> 00:44:31.159
This is a journey that perhaps I can join, and

779
00:44:31.239 --> 00:44:35.599
I can be purpose driven in that. And overnight, almost

780
00:44:35.679 --> 00:44:38.960
that reached a tipping point. And you can see this.

781
00:44:39.360 --> 00:44:42.440
And leaders with group intelligence, I explained in the book,

782
00:44:42.760 --> 00:44:46.800
have a way of understanding how to intervene in complex

783
00:44:46.880 --> 00:44:50.800
human ecosystems in order to reach these tipping points faster

784
00:44:51.800 --> 00:44:56.719
and not get what I call unintended consequences. So I

785
00:44:56.840 --> 00:44:58.880
talk a lot about how you do that reach those

786
00:44:58.920 --> 00:45:01.199
tipping points, like all m foland did at the A

787
00:45:01.320 --> 00:45:01.920
and Z Bank.

788
00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:05.280
Really it's incredibly alluring.

789
00:45:05.400 --> 00:45:07.079
I do want to read this other passage that I

790
00:45:07.119 --> 00:45:09.519
think also really supports what you were saying here. You say,

791
00:45:09.639 --> 00:45:12.920
leaders who grasp the power of group intelligence focus less

792
00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:15.679
on the mechanics and more on the vision to reach

793
00:45:15.719 --> 00:45:19.119
the tipping point sooner. They focus on how accomplishing the

794
00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:21.719
change will make people feel, rather than the step by

795
00:45:21.760 --> 00:45:25.800
step process that will get them there. Their storytelling toolbox

796
00:45:25.920 --> 00:45:30.000
usually includes powerful symbols that capture the imagination and help

797
00:45:30.079 --> 00:45:32.960
trigger the tipping point from the work that I do.

798
00:45:33.039 --> 00:45:35.559
Of course, that's essential parts of what we teach as well.

799
00:45:35.840 --> 00:45:37.639
I just thought that was really powerful that you really

800
00:45:37.679 --> 00:45:39.920
focused on the vision, how people feel, and of course

801
00:45:39.960 --> 00:45:42.519
the symbols. And then you also go on to say

802
00:45:42.559 --> 00:45:45.400
that smart leaders know how to nudge a group toward

803
00:45:45.480 --> 00:45:50.039
these critical junctures by deploying stories, symbols, and rituals that

804
00:45:50.079 --> 00:45:54.639
facilitate a viral change. Leaders with group intelligence intervene and

805
00:45:55.039 --> 00:46:01.000
complex ecosystems to move the group from chaotic calling individuals

806
00:46:01.000 --> 00:46:05.000
to a collaborative force for change. All of that is

807
00:46:05.159 --> 00:46:07.159
just really speaks to me of really I would say,

808
00:46:07.320 --> 00:46:12.079
very highly nuanced leadership and communication and group intelligence skills.

809
00:46:13.719 --> 00:46:16.440
Yeah, so I think this is the rider list because

810
00:46:16.480 --> 00:46:20.800
people have been given EQ skills, and EQ is fantastic

811
00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:24.199
in terms of interpersonal skills. It allows you to understand

812
00:46:24.239 --> 00:46:28.280
your own emotions and to understand the emotions for the people.

813
00:46:28.760 --> 00:46:32.079
But that, as I say, is necessary but not sufficient.

814
00:46:32.800 --> 00:46:37.440
In dealing with complex human ecosystems or groups or organizations,

815
00:46:37.519 --> 00:46:42.400
you've got to develop GQ, and GQ is the ability

816
00:46:42.559 --> 00:46:48.199
to understand how these complex ecosystems are functioning and to

817
00:46:48.199 --> 00:46:52.519
be able to intervene in those complex human ecosystems in

818
00:46:52.679 --> 00:46:57.199
order to help them to deliver, to grow, or to adapt.

819
00:46:57.960 --> 00:47:02.000
And those intervention points are critical, and we're not taught

820
00:47:02.039 --> 00:47:06.440
how to do that. Nobody is teaching us yet about

821
00:47:06.519 --> 00:47:09.960
group intelligence. When you talk about it seems so sensible

822
00:47:10.119 --> 00:47:12.760
and it's so logical, but yet we're not taught. We're

823
00:47:12.800 --> 00:47:15.800
taught EQ, but we're not yet taught GQ, which is

824
00:47:15.840 --> 00:47:19.320
this much more systemic way of intervening.

825
00:47:20.079 --> 00:47:20.800
Why we need you.

826
00:47:21.719 --> 00:47:24.159
We really just touched on just a few of the many,

827
00:47:24.199 --> 00:47:25.960
many points we could have spoken about in this book.

828
00:47:26.000 --> 00:47:27.320
There are so many other things, and I just pulled

829
00:47:27.320 --> 00:47:29.800
out the things that really kind of resonated with me.

830
00:47:30.480 --> 00:47:32.039
I think you might know that this shows listened to

831
00:47:32.119 --> 00:47:34.400
my people around the world who are trying to either

832
00:47:35.079 --> 00:47:38.239
create a better workplace for them themselves, become better more

833
00:47:38.239 --> 00:47:41.239
inspirational leaders, and ideally health organization do business in a

834
00:47:41.280 --> 00:47:43.159
way that betters the world. What would you like to

835
00:47:43.239 --> 00:47:43.800
leave them with.

836
00:47:45.880 --> 00:47:48.239
Yeah, I would like to leave them with the thought

837
00:47:48.280 --> 00:47:52.360
that IQ and EQ are no longer sufficient for the

838
00:47:52.440 --> 00:47:56.960
complexity we're facing today and change has become a tsunami,

839
00:47:57.639 --> 00:48:01.000
and really to step into their role to start to

840
00:48:01.039 --> 00:48:05.159
equip themselves with group intelligence or GQ, and to start

841
00:48:05.199 --> 00:48:09.440
applying a more systemic lens to our workplaces, and hopefully

842
00:48:09.800 --> 00:48:14.000
the hive Mind at work can start you on that journey.

843
00:48:14.119 --> 00:48:18.239
It does require a rewiring of your brain and it

844
00:48:18.280 --> 00:48:22.039
is I've been on this journey for over two decades now.

845
00:48:22.519 --> 00:48:25.760
It is a learning process, but it is possible to

846
00:48:25.840 --> 00:48:29.159
develop your group intelligence and definitely worthwhile journey.

847
00:48:29.800 --> 00:48:31.559
I think your book has taught us a lot, and

848
00:48:31.599 --> 00:48:34.400
so is this conversation. Very happy to know you, Shavn.

849
00:48:34.719 --> 00:48:37.320
Very grateful to have learned from you, getting to share

850
00:48:37.400 --> 00:48:39.840
you with my listeners and viewers around the world. Thank

851
00:48:39.880 --> 00:48:41.199
you for being on working on purpose.

852
00:48:42.480 --> 00:48:44.519
Thank you so much, Elise for all the work you

853
00:48:44.639 --> 00:48:46.280
do and the difference you're making.

854
00:48:46.760 --> 00:48:49.320
Thank you, listeners of viewers. You are going to want

855
00:48:49.360 --> 00:48:51.760
to learn more about Shabon McHale the work that she

856
00:48:51.800 --> 00:48:54.159
does helping people to lead change in her book The

857
00:48:54.239 --> 00:48:56.760
Hive Minded Work The best place to do that is

858
00:48:56.800 --> 00:48:59.000
on LinkedIn. You can find her there. Let me spell

859
00:48:59.039 --> 00:49:04.199
her name for you. Chavn is actually spelled siobha n.

860
00:49:05.039 --> 00:49:10.119
He last name is Mikhail mcha l E. Last week,

861
00:49:10.159 --> 00:49:11.800
if you missed the live show, you can always catch

862
00:49:11.800 --> 00:49:14.599
every recorded podcast. We were on the Eric Carla McLaren

863
00:49:14.719 --> 00:49:18.960
talking about her empathic approach to emotions reevalu in them,

864
00:49:19.000 --> 00:49:22.199
even for the most negative emotions that open startling new

865
00:49:22.320 --> 00:49:26.679
pathways into self awareness, effective communication, and healthy empathy. We

866
00:49:26.800 --> 00:49:30.840
learned about the wisdom and anger, for example, anxiety and

867
00:49:30.880 --> 00:49:34.000
even shame, among so many other pearls of unusual wisdom.

868
00:49:34.599 --> 00:49:37.199
Next week, we'll be on the air with Janet Ioli

869
00:49:37.360 --> 00:49:40.719
talking about her work helping leaders to create their most powerful,

870
00:49:40.760 --> 00:49:41.840
impactful presence.

871
00:49:42.159 --> 00:49:42.599
See you there.

872
00:49:42.679 --> 00:49:44.559
Remember that work is one of the best adventures and

873
00:49:44.639 --> 00:49:47.400
means of realizing our potential and making the impact we crave.

874
00:49:47.760 --> 00:49:49.119
So let's work on Purpose.

875
00:49:52.000 --> 00:49:54.639
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to

876
00:49:54.679 --> 00:49:58.320
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes,

877
00:49:58.440 --> 00:50:01.679
each week on W four C. Why Together We'll create

878
00:50:01.719 --> 00:50:05.840
a world where business operates conscientiously. Leadership inspires and passion.

879
00:50:05.880 --> 00:50:08.920
Performance and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the

880
00:50:09.000 --> 00:50:12.320
meaning and purpose they crave. See you there. Let's work

881
00:50:12.440 --> 00:50:13.119
on purpose.