From Ugly Universal Lies to Beautiful Individual Truths

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What's Working on Purpose anyway? Each
week we ponder the answer to this question.

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People ache for meaning and purpose at
work to contribute their talents passionately and

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know their lives really matter. They
crave being part of an organization that inspires

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them and helps them grow into realizing
their highest potential. Business can be such

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a force for good in the world, elevating humanity. In our program,

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we provide guidance and inspiration to help
usher in this world we all want.

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Working on Purpose now. Here is
your host, Doctor Elise Cortes. Welcome

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back to the Working on Purpose Program. Thanks for tuning again this week.

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I'm your host, Doctor release Cortez, Joiny live from Dallas, Texas,

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which is home base for me.
If you've been tuning in for a while,

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you know this program is a thought
leadership series that enlightens and inspires listeners

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with insights from distinguished business leaders and
subject matter experts. Here at Working on

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Purpose, we're committed to realizing a
world where work is enriching and a purposeful

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part of life. Leaders inspire people
to realize their own greatness while contributing their

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passion and business is elevated to an
unleashing spectacular impact in the world. Each

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week in these conversations, I hope
you walk away with something that changes the

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way you think and that you can
really put to use. Much of the

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content we discuss in this program is
a reflection of the work I do.

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So as you listen, if you
catch a glimpse of anything that I can

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do to help, go to my
website at at least quartes dot com and

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use the contact me feature to message
me. Let's talk what what's going on

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for you and how I might be
able to help at any rate. I'm

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glad we're connected, and thanks for
listening. Now onto this week's program.

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With us today is Marcus Buckingham,
a global researcher and thought later focused on

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unlocking strengths, increasing performance, and
pioneering the future of how people work.

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He founded the Marcus Buckingham Company in
two thousand and six and is the author

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of several best selling books, including
First to Break All the Rules, as

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well as Now Discover Your Strengths.
He currently heads all People and Performance research

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at the ADP Research Institute. We'll
be talking about his latest book, co

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written by Ashley Goodall, Nine Lives
About Work. A Free Thinking Leader's guide

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to the real world you don't Today
from Los Angeles, California, Marcus,

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Welcome to Working on Purpose. Thank
you, thank you for having me.

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Well, I have been stalking you
for about the last ten years, Marcus.

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I'm so glad to have you on
the show and share with my listeners.

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Your work inspires me and my work. So let me start with a

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big, fat thank you. That's
my pleasure. That's that's great. You've

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been showing me ten years. Happy
to be happy to be token denail alive.

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Absolutely, absolutely, Well, let's
kick this off here, and I

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want to start with the end if
we can, so playing on the last

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chapter of your book that the lie
that leadership is a thing. As I

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said, I've been following you for
quite some time and I do subscribe to

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the Strengths philosophy and have used your
products and workshops that I've conducted. So

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I want to help. I want
to help our listeners understand because I know

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something about you. How you've found
your way into the career did starting with

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finding a way to the Galop organization
initially as a scientist studying excellency management and

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leadership. Why this field? And
of course I have to ask how has

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your professional of life unfolded? Wow, that's a big old question. I

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mean I come from a family of
sort of HR practitioners. I suppose my

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grandfather was right after Second World War, my father was as well, and

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Dad ended up running. He was
basically the chr of a very very large

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brewing company that had seven thousand pubs, and back in the early eighties,

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he was trying to figure out a
way to select better pub managers. Could

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you do in a way that was
scientific, Could you find the right questions,

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the right talent the best pub managers
had, and could you select more

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like them? And he came across
in his global search for a company that

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knew how to do this, he
came across a chat by the name of

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doctor Don Clifton, and so he
brought Don Clifton over to our house.

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And I was think a ten years
old. And Don, as you know,

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was the grandfather of positive psychology,
significantly influenced Marty Seligman in terms of

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thinking about studying what's right about people. Don obviously a psychometrician himself, so

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built reliable assessments to measure people's talents
and strength. And I was this is

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you know, fifteen years, I
suppose before we made the strength find at

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all. But right away I was
hooked. I was just about to go

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up to university, and the idea
that you don't learn very much about success

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and studying failure, you don't learn
about happiness and joy from studying depression.

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The idea that excellence in all its
forms has its own configuration and that we

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got to study and to learn about
it, and that we don't do that

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even from a very I was sixteen
for crying out that I was just hooked.

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Came over to Lincoln, Nebraska,
which is where the Gallup Organization happened

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to be headquarter and headquarters, and
went over there in the summers while I

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was at university, and then nineteen
eighty seven eighty eight I graduated and came

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to Nebraska for a year to really
learned the science of how do you build

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an instrument that measures people's talents when
they might not even know themselves. How

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do you do that in a way
that's scientifically rigorous. And I stayed for

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twenty five years, and first seventeen
of those or brother, yeah, first,

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I guess actually one twenty five years, isn't it? Ay thirty odd

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years and first fifteen of those with
the Gallup organization and then wrote first Break

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all the Rules, and I was
there and obviously did the strength Find a

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tool and now Discovery your Strength with
Dawn in two thousand and one. That

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was college, I think in January
two thousand and one. And then and

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then Don passed away in two thousand
and three, and I just like it

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was time to go beyond just measuring
people's engagement or measuring their strength and getting

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into try to build those things,
and so built my own my own company,

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which is a coaching and development company
initially, and then and then we

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built another sort of next gen strength
assessment called Standout in twenty twelve. It's

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really focused on and you obviously you
know strength Find it very well, but

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it's for a team leader with ten
people on their team, thirty four themes

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that you get on the response to
strength Finder. That's a lot of complexity.

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So we built stand Out to try
and take all that we'd learned from

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strength Finder and create something that was
a little more focused on what the team

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leader might need to learn about each
person on their team, and then built

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up that business and then actually twenty
seventeen ADP, the huge originally peril company,

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came in and said, we want
to we want to take this strength

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based approach and and and amplify it
across the entire world of work. Can

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we buy the standout technology? And
so I thought to myself, Well,

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if you're going to try to say
the world of work, you need a

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lot of friends and ADPs a lot
of people. So we said yes.

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And then they said, would you
mind doing some of your search here through

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the ADP Research Institute And I was
like absolutely so. So that's kind of

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the that's me in a nutshell,
was very very fortunate to get connected with

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Don Clifton, who is you know, a real a real genius in this

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in this world of personal strengths.
Very lucky to get connected with him right

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out of school, well while I
was still in school. And then it's

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that's really forged my career for these
last thirty years, Marcus. That was

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brilliant, and so a couple of
things. It sounds to me, there's

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a lot of ways that I could
say this here in Texas. We could

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say you're blessed, you're blessed,
or we could say you're you've been selected,

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you've been chosen or you know,
an angel tapped you on the shoulder.

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Regardless, we we are the beneficiary
of your work, Marcus. And

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yes I know the Strengths. I've
been at galluser By Strengths coach three years.

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I have used your standout instrument.
Yes, I know that too.

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When I think at last count,
I think thirty three million people across the

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world have taken the Strengths Finder.
About that number, is that right?

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Yes, it's getting up there.
I wouldn't know the latest exactly right now,

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but yeah, you know when we
first built strength Finded, the goal

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here was to go we need to
have a rigorous way to give people a

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language to talk about themselves at their
best. And I don't think Don or

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I or later Tom Rath would say
that this is the definitive only way to

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describe yourself. But certainly at the
time, you know, two thousands,

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because the one there really wasn't a
rigorous and reliable way to help people have

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language to describe themselves. And I
know at the time we just thought,

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well that was a myths that was
a missed opportunity to help people understand who

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they are at their best. So
yes, I feel I don't really know

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what I would do otherwise I feel
blessed to be able to. I mean

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I feel somewhat frustratedly blessed because we
still actually don't put much rigor around helping

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people to identify what they love and
how they can apply it, which is

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another way of thinking about strength.
So there's a lot of work still to

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be done, but certainly to touch
thirty three or forty whatever it is million

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people is that's a blessing. It's
a star at Marcus. Yes, And

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like you, I stand to make
the world of work a better place and

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to be able to celebrate the contribution
that everyone makes in their one precious life,

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which is why I love why you
wrote your book. One of the

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things that you say is you and
your co author Ashley Goodall talk about this

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being it's for free thinking leaders,
and I appreciate how you describe those people,

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and there's a lot to their definition, but I'll start with you say,

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a leader who embraces a world in
which the weird uniqueness of each individual

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is seen not as a flaw to
be ground down, but it's a mess

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worth engaging with. The raw material
for all healthy, ethical driving organizations,

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AH, that is just yummy,
Marcus. Can you say more about why

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you wrote the book and for who? Yes, I have a brother and

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a sister, and my elder brother
was a beautiful pianist and composer, and

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my younger sister was a professional ballet
dancer for many, many years for the

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Royal Ballet Company. And I'm in
the middle, and I'm roughly the same

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age obviously as both of them.
I'm the same race, was brought up

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in the same household. But I
don't have a musical bone in my body,

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and I wish I did, Like
I love what they can do,

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and I will love how they can
do it, but I couldn't be them.

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And it became really apparent early to
me that I was different from my

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brother and sister. And so quite
early on you start going as a kid,

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you start going, I wonder what
that is. I wonder why I'm

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different than my brother? Can I
become my brother? Can I learn enough

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skills if I just try hard,
if I just put in to you and

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as Erickson's formulation the ten thousand hours, could I become? How much of

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me is enduring and resistance to change, and how much of me is changeable?

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Those became for me, very very
early on, very interesting questions because

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I felt so immediately different and somewhat
ashamed actually that I wasn't as good as

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my brother or my sister. It's
something that they clearly felt as easy as

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breathing. And so what happens then
is you start as a person. You

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start going, well, somebody's going
to help me figure this out, right,

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And then of course you go to
school and they don't help you figure

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it out. They help you learn
the right things to pass the tests that

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are required. And then you go
to school and people and so then you

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go to university, and again it's
really more about acquiring certain sets of knowledge

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so that you can pass an exam. And then you go to work,

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and it's sort of the same thing. You are not The uniqueness of you

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is best irrelevant and at worth an
annoyance that gets in the way of us

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getting the outcomes or getting the performance
from you that we want. So it's

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the weirdest thing. If I were
six, you start, You're like,

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I'm unique. That's interesting. I
wonder if someone can help me turn that

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uniqueness into contribution. And then you
wake up at thirty five and you're like

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Wow, I haven't really advanced on
a deep, rigorous, intelligent description of

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who I am and what I can
contribute. And so when Ashley and I

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sat down to write this book,
it was like And the reason I parted

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with Ashley, by the way,
is, of course he's running people for

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this huge organization called Cisco. I'm
a researcher by training and by profession by

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orientation, actually is a big time
practitioner. And the whole premise here is

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that the power of human nature is
that each human's nature is different. Well,

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if you're going to if you're going
to actually turn that from a sentence

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into action, then you've got to
do it in the real world. And

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so partnering with Ashley to go,
let's actually describe what an organization would look

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like if we use the uniqueness of
a person as the fundamental, moral and

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practical starting point. We don't at
school, we don't at university, and

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we don't at work. So what
would it look like if we did.

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And the point of saying three,
thinking leader is forget the dogma, forget

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the theories. Look at the real
world. In the real worlds, people

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are unique and distinctive, and that's
not a function of race or religion,

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or gender or nationality, because there
are way more differences within gender than there

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are between genders. There's way more
differences within racism between races. So where's

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all that conversation, where's all those
descriptions of how we make best use of

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us as individuals? Where's that?
Well, you look in the real world,

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you see these differences. And so
the point of writing a book was

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to go, if we really want
to build organizations, And clearly Nine Lives

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About Work is focused on work.
It's not focused on school. But if

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we really wanted to build organizations that
get the most out of people, we

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would look at the real world and
we wouldn't look at theories and abstractions and

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concepts. We'd look at, Oh
my gosh, I've got these ten nurses

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on my team, but they're not
ten nurses. That's in individuals who happen

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to be nurses. There's uniqueness in
them in terms of how they think and

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how they build relationships and how they
organize their time. There's uniqueness in them.

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We could eily pretend that that's not
real and hope that they were all

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homogeneous, or we can do with
the fact that we've got eight unique sorry,

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ten unique individuals. You do have
to be nurses. So the book

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was written to go, this is
silly. We've got only about sixteen percent

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of people fully engaged at work.
Why. Oh, we can see why.

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Because we've built work jobs organizations as
though they humans in it on humans

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and the wonder work is so disengaging. We've built it wrong, Marcus,

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and we're going to dive into that. That was just beautifully rendered. Let's

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grab our first break. I'm your
host, Alise Cortez. We've been on

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the air with Marcus Buckingham, a
global researcher and thought leader focused on unlocking

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strengths, increasing performance, and pioneering
the future of how people work. He's

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the founder of the Marcus Buckingham Company
and the co founder and the co author,

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excuse Me, of Nine Lives About
Work, a free thinking leader's guide

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to the real world, which we've
been discussing in today's program. He currently

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heads All People in Performance Research at
the ADP Research Institute. He joined today

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from Los Angeles, California. We've
been talking a bit about where this book

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came from. After the break,
we're going to get into the lies it

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covers stay with us. We'll be
right back. Doctor Elise Cortes is a

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management consultant specializing in meaning and purpose
and inspirational speaker and author. She helps

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companies visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders
and develop purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused

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cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance,
and commitment within the workforce. To learn

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more or to invite Elise to speak
to your organization, please visit her at

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00:16:25.720 --> 00:16:30.799
Elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about
how to get your employees working on purpose.

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This is working on Purpose with doctor
Elise Cortes. To reach our program

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00:16:41.720 --> 00:16:48.039
today or open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Elise Alise at

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Eleasecortes dot com. Now back to
working on purpose. Thanks for staying with

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us, and welcome back to working
on purpose if you're just joining us.

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My guest is Marcus Buckingham, a
global researcher and thought leader focused on unlocking

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strengths, increasing performance, and pioneering
the future of how people work. He's

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the founder of The Marcus Buckingham Company
and the author of First, Break All

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the Rules and Now Discover Your Strengths
and Now Nine Lives about your work.

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He currently heads all People and Performance
Research at the ADP Research Institute. I'm

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your host at last Cortes, So, Marcus, before we get into a

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couple of the lives for this segment, I think it's important that we discuss

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just really why we have these nine
lives in the first place. And as

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you could probably tell from the questions
I sent to you, I did read

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your book cover to cover, as
I do all of my author guests,

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and I'm very interested in This makes
so much sense to me that you say

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in the book that it helps us
to realize that the Nine Lives even exist

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and have taken hold because it satisfies
the organization's need for control. These are

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large, complex places, and it's
understandable that they need to be able to

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direct their leaders for simplicity and order. But I think that's an important concept

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for us to understand. Can you
say more about this need for control and

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how it's produced these nine livees.
Yeah. Well, if you think about

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what an organization needs to do,
it's trying to create certain outcomes in an

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organized way. And we've used as
our model for organizations some version of the

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Roman Legions and then up through the
Catholic Church. And then on top of

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that, we overlaid a manufacturing process
principle that was probably first refined by Henry

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Ford back in nineteen twelve nineteen thirteen
as the assembly line. And that's really

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the way that we've organized our work. And it was pretty efficient, I

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mean, the assembly I was pretty
efficient. And then over the last sort

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one hundred years, we've taken that
assembly line approach organized through hierarchical structures a

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Roman legions and Catholic Church. And
that's the way that we've built work.

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And when you build work that way, there are certain outcomes that you could

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predictably create, which is why I
guess they've came up with a similar in

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the first place. And then over
the la one hundred years, we simply

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refined and refined and refined and squeeze
the efficiencies as much efficiencies as we could

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out of the assembly line. So
total quality management, business process, re

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engineering, six Sigma Lean thinking,
Lean Manual, these all these terms are

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simply one f after another to get
more efficiency out of the manufacturing approach or

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the assembly line approach. And we're
done, I mean we're done with it.

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Now. We've got everything out of
it, we could possibly get out

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of it, and it's time to
retire it as a as a metaphor.

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Obviously, today the hospitals under mass
of pressure, but even in normal times,

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you look at the way that hospital
has organized, and it's organized,

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it looks very very much like an
assembly line. So does a bank,

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so does professional services or consulting.
We've still got this idea that we want

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in order to create consistent outcomes,
we need to have everyone in the same

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role doing the role in exactly the
same way. In manufacturing, we can

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see it through standardized proct processes.
In the world of the white color world,

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I suppose you can see it in
terms of long list of competencies,

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three sixty surveys to measure you against
those competencies just everywhere you look. We

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seem to believe that that human uniqueness
is inefficient and we must break it down,

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and that's what we've been I mean, no one would say it that

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way, but that's you look at
what most people do in the world of

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human resources. It's designed to ensure
compliance and consistency because that's sufficient and individuality

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is annoying, and that's as it
just gets in the way. And yet

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The reason for the free thinking word
again is to say, well, but

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unfortunately it's real, I will not
be my brother ever, So what are

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you going to do about that?
How do you build an organization so that

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you don't basically wish everyone in the
same job was doing it exactly the same

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way and try to train everyone in
the same job to do it in exactly

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the same way. When you want
consistency of outcomes or consistency of quality in

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terms of customer experience, how do
you get those consistency of outcomes without forcing

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everyone to do consistency of steps.
How do you do that? Is,

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if you wanted to get a consistency
of outcome by following consistent steps, Unfortunately

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that means you're going to try and
teach every single person who's an incumbent in

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h role to follow exactly the same
steps. And if you do that,

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you dehumanize your organization. You create
an organization. It's basically trying to eradicate

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what makes each human beautiful and powerful
they make their unique gifts. Well,

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that's stupid, sorry to that,
that's stupid. It's all doing moral Yes,

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well it's not good enough for me. That's if I get animated around.

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I'm you know, it's like this
week, people like you and me.

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We've got to be able to look
at companies around the world and organizations

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and go you can do better.
You can do better. Yes, Marcus,

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I completely agree with you, and
that is a big reason I continue

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to host this radio show weekly for
the last five years, because we can

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do better, and I'm committed to
make sure that we do do better.

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And as someone who has individualization as
her top five in her top five strengths,

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yes, we can see the beauty
of each and every person. So

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and to that end, the first
one of the first lines I want to

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talk about, I can't get to
all nine of them on the show,

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so that's okay, we'll just give
a couple sprinkles. But one that I

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want to start with, Marcus,
is the lie that people care which company

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they work for, and instead you
write. What we as team members want

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from you, our team leader,
is firstly that you make us feel part

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of something bigger, that you show
us how we are doing together is important

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and meaningful. And secondly, to
your point earlier, that you make us

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feel that you can see us and
connect to us and care about us and

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challenge us in a way that recognizes
who we are as individuals. Yes,

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yes, and yes say more.
Well, yeah, the first thing about

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that live people care which company they
work for. It's the first it's the

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first lie we encounter because we we've
kind of made a god of culture where

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we say a company is defined by
its culture, and if you want to

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be a really good company, you
better have a really good culture. And

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so that was we thought, that's
let's start with that one. Because the

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best companies to work for issue Fortune
Magazine is the most issue of the entire

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year. We all get animated around
this idea of customa and yeah, if

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you were to look at the real
world and say, well, is that

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true. Does Patagonia have some sort
of unique culture that makes it similar to

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it for everyone who works there and
different from say, of Goldman Sachs.

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Now, on the surface you go, well, yeah, because the onboarding

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is different in Patagonia and everyone wears
a suit at Goldman Sachs. So on

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some level you'd go, yeah,
I guess probably there is a difference.

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But for that to be true that
there is a difference, then you'd have

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to find two things. You'd have
to be able to ask people who work

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for Patagonia and ask people who work
for Goldman Sachs a list of questions to

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define their experience, and you would
have to find firstly that everyone in Patagonia

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had a uniform experience of Patagonia.
You'd have to find that there was a

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similarity no matter what department you were
in, the experience of patagonianness was somehow

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felt by everyone working there. And
then you'd have to find that whatever that

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was was not there at Goldman Sacks, that there was a uniform experience in

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Goldman Sachs, but it was different
than the uniform experience Patagonia. When you

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never find that, we've never found
that. Ever, when you go inside

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Patagonia and just start asking basic questions
about do you know what's expected of you,

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do you have confidence in the future, do you believe in the purpose

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or the mission of the company,
what you find is there's way more variation

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on that set of questions within Patagonia
than between Patagonia and another company. There's

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far more variation inside a company than
between companies. Now, CEOs don't want

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to say that because they're five years
miles behind the front line and they've got

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a trance to figure out something to
do to try to create a better set

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of outcomes to the company, and
one of the leavers, they pull at

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the culture lever because that's all they
can think of to do. But when

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you actually look at the real world, there's no such thing as a company

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culture. What there is instead are
lots and lots and lots of teams.

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Inside of a company, there's lots
and lots and lots of teams. And

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although you may join Patagonia and therefore
maybe in Patagonia's interest to have a talent

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brand that speaks to how they value
people and what they stand for. That

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is what we called. Those are
peacock feathers for people, their plumage company

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plumage, and they're designed to attract
you in like all plumages that you join

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a company, but once you're there, how long you stay and how productive

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you are depends massively on what team
you're on or teams plural rather, because

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when you start looking at it,
you find out that more than sixty five

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percent of people working in America work
on more than one team. The team's

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plural. And then when you look
at things like performance or things like voluntary

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turnover, you find that those things
vary inside a company according to which team

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you're on. When the person leaves
something, the thing they're leaving is the

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team, the real specific people they
bump into every day and have to work

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with. Well, gosh, what
that means is not just a quote unquote

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teamwork is important. It means that
if we really wanted to build better work

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experiences for people, we would be
razor or laser focused on learning about what

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do our best teams look like and
how can we build more like them.

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We would make team joining the most
important part of onboarding. Well we don't.

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It's not that we don't do that
at the moment. We can't even

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see the teams, which means we
can't see the work. That's so funny

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right now, Alisaus. No company
knows where the work is. Google like

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great. Company like Google has no
idea how many teams it has, or

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who's on them, or which are
the best ones, has no idea.

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All the HR systems we have are
sort of the Catholic church or the Roman

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legions. Who reports to who boxes
on an ORG chart because HR systems are

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basically financial systems. But of course
most of the work we do is inside

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the boxes. It's in these dynamic
and ephemeral teams. So it's one of

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those weird things where we've missed the
most important unit of analysis in companies.

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We've missed teams. And as you
know, of course, the beautiful thing

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about teams is they make weirdness useful. That's the point of a team.

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Fifty thousand years ago and we've made
the first team. It was because different

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people had different qualities, and you
were fast, and you were cunning,

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and you had a great sense of
smell and you were strong, and we

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figured out if we kind of put
us all together, we might actually be

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able to do something together that we
couldn't do alot. That's what a team

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is for a team is for maximizing
uniqueness. And that's so cool about what

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it is to be on a great
team. If someone, yes, they

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make you feel part of something bigger
than you, but they also see you

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and expect you to step into the
best of you so that you can support

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the others. That's what a great
team feels like. Well, we've missed

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all we've really missed all of that, unfortunately, at least in terms of

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the way that we try to build
our organizations, we don't see teams,

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and instead we tried to exert control, and of course the best teams aren't

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doing that at all. The best
teams are well rounded, precisely because each

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individual on them isn't. That's the
first lie. People don't care which company

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they work for, They ca which
team they're on. I could listen to

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you all day, Marcus, and
I'm so glad we got this interview to

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be able to hear you over and
over again, because I'm sure our listeners

393
00:29:23.640 --> 00:29:26.559
will want to replay this. And
you do a beautiful job in your book

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of explicating just what you just said, so we can always rely on that

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00:29:30.599 --> 00:29:33.680
too. But now let's talk that
about another lie then, Marcus. So

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00:29:33.720 --> 00:29:37.440
if we've been talking about the importance
of teams, let's talk about this one

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00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:41.039
of the other lies that you talk
about in the book, which is leadership

398
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is a thing. And you say
that a leader is someone who has followers,

399
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plain and simple, and the only
determinate determinant of whether anyone is leading

400
00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:52.079
is whether anyone else is following.
And this is the really fun part is

401
00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:56.519
you write that we follow spikey leaders
those who have honed one or two distinctive

402
00:29:56.519 --> 00:30:00.240
abilities that they use to make their
mark on the world. So we followed

403
00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:07.200
Spikes, Well, it's fine.
Leadership is a I mean, people love

404
00:30:07.240 --> 00:30:11.039
the word leadership, and the idea
I suppose is that if you want to

405
00:30:11.079 --> 00:30:15.160
be a leader, you need to
go and acquire this thing called leadership.

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00:30:15.119 --> 00:30:21.680
And we define leadership by saying,
well, look, we've studied this big

407
00:30:21.680 --> 00:30:26.200
group of leaders and we've identified all
the different qualities they have in common,

408
00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:30.519
and we've created our model, our
leadership model. And then if you want

409
00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:33.799
in the model is a bunch of
qualities or attributes or competencies you're supposed to

410
00:30:33.839 --> 00:30:37.839
possess. And then if you want
to be a better leader, then we're

411
00:30:37.880 --> 00:30:40.440
going to teach you the competencies,
and we might even measure you against the

412
00:30:40.440 --> 00:30:44.559
competencias and pinpoint which ones you don't
have so that you can acquire the ones

413
00:30:44.599 --> 00:30:48.880
you don't have so you can have
more leadership. That's a simply put,

414
00:30:48.920 --> 00:30:53.480
that's what the leadership, the eight
billion dollar leadership business in the US is

415
00:30:53.480 --> 00:30:57.119
built around. And again, put
your free thinking researcher hot on for a

416
00:30:57.160 --> 00:31:00.240
second, and you have to go
well first or examined. When you put

417
00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:03.519
these lists of I don't know,
fifty great leaders up against the wall,

418
00:31:03.920 --> 00:31:07.839
do we find that they have anything
in common? And the answer to that

419
00:31:07.960 --> 00:31:11.079
question is no. We find that
they don't. Even the leaders in the

420
00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:15.640
same company. We find that they
have really different approaches to the way in

421
00:31:15.680 --> 00:31:18.279
which they lead, and of course
that fits with all of our real world

422
00:31:18.279 --> 00:31:22.599
experience. Anyway, there are very
very successful leaders out there that we've all

423
00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:26.680
met, and they don't all look
the same. In fact, they look

424
00:31:26.680 --> 00:31:29.880
really different. So that then makes
you go, well, gosh, well,

425
00:31:29.880 --> 00:31:33.920
then if we can't and this isn't
sort of I think that they're not

426
00:31:33.960 --> 00:31:40.279
the same. It's like when you
do rigorous and repeated psychometric studies to try

427
00:31:40.319 --> 00:31:44.240
to measure what qualities do these leaders
all have that make them similar to each

428
00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:48.599
other and different from everyone else,
We can't find them, Like the science

429
00:31:48.759 --> 00:31:52.720
says, it's not there. So
then you go, well, what makes

430
00:31:52.759 --> 00:31:53.880
them a leader? And of course
that's where you bump into oh, well,

431
00:31:53.880 --> 00:31:56.240
the only thing they do in common
is they've got a bunch of people

432
00:31:56.319 --> 00:32:00.559
following them, and so the first
to make our own leadership. Of course,

433
00:32:00.599 --> 00:32:06.160
this followership is a thing. Leadership
isn't. Leaders are real in the

434
00:32:06.200 --> 00:32:10.000
real world. But they're only leaders
because they've managed to cultivate followership. What

435
00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:15.160
we should be studying is followership,
not leadership, because leadership doesn't exist.

436
00:32:15.559 --> 00:32:20.200
We should be studying followership because followership
does. When we ask a bunch of

437
00:32:20.200 --> 00:32:22.359
people, are you willing to give
your life for this leader or are you

438
00:32:22.359 --> 00:32:25.799
willing to give your time and your
energy to her vision of the future,

439
00:32:27.079 --> 00:32:30.200
we can ask questions about that people, and when a whole bunch of people

440
00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:34.640
go yes, yes, yes,
that's them just reporting on themselves, saying

441
00:32:34.680 --> 00:32:37.079
what their experience is a bunch of
people go yes, I would follow her

442
00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:44.240
through the darkest nights, then that's
followership that exists. We can understand it.

443
00:32:44.599 --> 00:32:46.640
That's what we should focus on learning
about. And when you do that,

444
00:32:46.680 --> 00:32:52.960
when you really focus on what gets
people to follow others' confidence is what

445
00:32:52.039 --> 00:32:57.119
leaders bring us. The best ones. The leader is saying, look,

446
00:32:57.240 --> 00:33:00.720
let's go around the corner, and
the follower is going, I don't even

447
00:33:00.720 --> 00:33:01.799
know what's around the corner, and
the leaders going, look, don't worry

448
00:33:01.839 --> 00:33:06.680
follow me anyway. And the only
reason why you get someone to actually follow

449
00:33:06.720 --> 00:33:10.599
you anyway is because you're turning their
anxiety into confidence. You're not diminishing their

450
00:33:10.720 --> 00:33:15.839
anxiety, you're not demeaning it.
You're saying, follow me around the corner,

451
00:33:15.839 --> 00:33:17.839
because it's all going to be good. And so then you go,

452
00:33:19.519 --> 00:33:23.119
how do they do that? How
do they turn anxiety into confidence? And

453
00:33:23.160 --> 00:33:27.319
obviously all of them do it differently, but one of the most powerful things

454
00:33:27.359 --> 00:33:31.680
you can see in the research is
that we follow someone who clearly knows to

455
00:33:31.720 --> 00:33:37.920
the end degree who she is and
has taken a couple of skills or qualities

456
00:33:37.839 --> 00:33:44.880
that are relevant to us and has
maximized them. And when we see that

457
00:33:44.920 --> 00:33:47.039
in a leader, we don't expect
the leader to have everything. But when

458
00:33:47.039 --> 00:33:52.240
we see a leader that's taken herself
really seriously in some area that's relevant to

459
00:33:52.319 --> 00:33:54.559
us, then we follow her around
the corner because we know who she is

460
00:33:54.599 --> 00:34:00.880
going to be in any situation.
We know that she's not vague or she's

461
00:34:00.960 --> 00:34:07.840
not sort of a franken leader who's
made up of a whole bunch of different

462
00:34:08.400 --> 00:34:13.840
weird traits that she's trying to triumphasize. We know who she is, and

463
00:34:13.840 --> 00:34:15.559
therefore, in any situation that's around
the courtner, we know how she's going

464
00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:20.079
to react and what she's going to
focus on how she's going to move.

465
00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:23.840
When we get that kind of clarity, we get confident. And so all

466
00:34:23.880 --> 00:34:28.239
of this stuff that we've taught leaders
to here are the seventeen qualities of a

467
00:34:28.320 --> 00:34:31.400
leader. Trying to crab them more. Now, now that's a myth.

468
00:34:32.119 --> 00:34:37.639
If you want people to follow you, you've got to know really deeply who

469
00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:42.920
you are. Turn that into spikes
that people can hook onto, because that'll

470
00:34:42.920 --> 00:34:46.920
make them more confident. We don't
expect you to be perfect. In fact,

471
00:34:46.920 --> 00:34:51.119
as we say in the book Leadership
or Followership, rather its first of

472
00:34:51.119 --> 00:34:55.079
all, an act of forgiveness.
We forgive you so many things you don't

473
00:34:55.119 --> 00:35:00.559
have if you've got one or two
powerful ones that could help us move into

474
00:35:00.599 --> 00:35:04.960
the future. Marcus, that is
so fresh and delightful. And on that

475
00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:07.639
note, let's grab our last break. I'm Elise Cortez, your host.

476
00:35:07.760 --> 00:35:10.320
We are in there with Marcus Buckingham, a global researcher and thought leader focused

477
00:35:10.360 --> 00:35:15.159
on unlocking strengths, increasing performance,
and pioneering in the future of how people

478
00:35:15.199 --> 00:35:17.800
work. He's the founder of the
Marcus Buckingham Company and the co founder of

479
00:35:17.880 --> 00:35:22.559
Nine Lives About Work, a freethinking
leader's guide to the real world, which

480
00:35:22.599 --> 00:35:25.599
we've been discussing in today's program.
He currently heads All People in Performance Research

481
00:35:25.639 --> 00:35:30.519
at the ADP Research Institute. He
joined it today from Los Angeles, California.

482
00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:47.639
We'll talk more after the break.
Stay with us. Doctor release Cortes

483
00:35:47.719 --> 00:35:53.320
is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author,

484
00:35:53.639 --> 00:35:59.880
she helps companies visioneer for greater purpose
among stakeholders and develop purpose in spa

485
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:06.719
fired leadership and meaning infused cultures that
elevate fulfillment, performance, and commitment within

486
00:36:06.760 --> 00:36:10.400
the workforce. To learn more or
to invite Elise to speak to your organization,

487
00:36:10.760 --> 00:36:15.760
please visit her at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get

488
00:36:15.800 --> 00:36:27.159
your employees working on purpose. This
is working on Purpose with doctor Elise Cortes.

489
00:36:27.679 --> 00:36:30.599
To reach our program today or open
a conversation with Alise, send an

490
00:36:30.599 --> 00:36:38.719
email to Alise Alise at elisecortes dot
com. Now back to working on Purpose.

491
00:36:49.519 --> 00:36:51.960
Thanks for staying with us, and
welcome back to working on purpose.

492
00:36:52.119 --> 00:36:54.360
If you're just tuning in. My
guest is Marcus Buckingham, a global researcher

493
00:36:54.360 --> 00:36:59.559
and thought leader focused on unlocking strengths, increasing performance and pioneering the future of

494
00:36:59.599 --> 00:37:02.400
how people work. He's the founder
of the Marcus Buckingham Company and the author

495
00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:07.719
at First Break All the Rules and
Now Discover Your Strengths and also Nine Lives

496
00:37:07.719 --> 00:37:10.480
About Work. It currently heads all
people in performance research at the ADP Research

497
00:37:10.519 --> 00:37:15.480
Institute. I'm your host at Last
Cortes. So for this last segment,

498
00:37:15.559 --> 00:37:19.360
Marcus, I wanted to cover two
lies, or it's going to call them

499
00:37:19.400 --> 00:37:22.079
fibbs. Lies is a better word
that you have in the book. If

500
00:37:22.079 --> 00:37:23.880
we have time. The first one
is the one that I have to tell

501
00:37:23.920 --> 00:37:29.480
you, Marcus completely probably altered my
being and the way that I look at

502
00:37:29.559 --> 00:37:35.079
how we how we measure and receive
usable information. And that's the idea that

503
00:37:35.119 --> 00:37:37.719
people can reliably rate other people.
Oh my gosh, Marcus, the way

504
00:37:37.719 --> 00:37:43.280
that you talk about that in the
book is so insightful and opens a huge

505
00:37:43.320 --> 00:37:47.559
door for people, including myself.
So the idea first that you know,

506
00:37:49.000 --> 00:37:52.400
the way people actually rate each other
is kind of disgusting and when you read

507
00:37:52.440 --> 00:37:54.079
it in your book, So would
you say a little bit about how do

508
00:37:54.119 --> 00:37:58.480
we tend to read each other inside
organizations? First we'll talk about that.

509
00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:02.719
Well, there's a lot of rating
happening without organizations right where you've got performance

510
00:38:02.800 --> 00:38:07.639
rating at the end of the year, you've got potential ratings. If you're

511
00:38:07.639 --> 00:38:10.280
going to create a nine box scrid, it's performance and potential. You've got

512
00:38:10.800 --> 00:38:15.280
more complex ratings where perhaps somebody that
you report to is rating you and others

513
00:38:15.320 --> 00:38:20.599
to require competencies or behaviors. And
then of course it extends into even more

514
00:38:20.639 --> 00:38:24.559
complicated than that. You've got three
sixty surveys where not only your boss,

515
00:38:24.599 --> 00:38:28.480
but your peers and your direct reports
and so forth to rating you on a

516
00:38:28.519 --> 00:38:34.119
list of qualities that you're supposed to
have. So ratings are really prevalent in

517
00:38:34.119 --> 00:38:38.480
our world. And how you get
paid and if you're fired, and if

518
00:38:38.480 --> 00:38:43.719
you're promoted, and if you're moved
to a different department, all of those

519
00:38:43.760 --> 00:38:47.360
things are mediated through these ratings.
In fact, these work in the federal

520
00:38:47.360 --> 00:38:52.559
government. You can't get promoted its
various levels up unless you can show that

521
00:38:52.599 --> 00:38:58.280
your ratings reveal that you have all
the required confidencies you're supposed to have.

522
00:39:00.159 --> 00:39:01.639
Ratings are everywhere, and they're going
to be there'll be more of them.

523
00:39:01.840 --> 00:39:07.519
I mean, Radalio at Bridgewater Associates
has created an environment there where you've got

524
00:39:07.519 --> 00:39:10.079
an app and you walk around with
the app, and any interaction you have

525
00:39:10.119 --> 00:39:15.599
with anyone, someone rates you on
the experience that they had in the meeting

526
00:39:15.679 --> 00:39:19.519
or bumping past you in the whole
way, or and these ratings are kept

527
00:39:19.559 --> 00:39:23.880
forever on you in what's called the
Transparency Library, and Bridgewater Associates isn't and

528
00:39:23.920 --> 00:39:31.360
Anomaly software companies coming out of Silicon
Valley have been really heavily invested in that

529
00:39:31.519 --> 00:39:36.679
do constant ratings of you all the
time. And so we're not going to

530
00:39:36.679 --> 00:39:38.599
get less of these ratings. We're
going to get more, and your entire

531
00:39:38.679 --> 00:39:44.000
future, your entire life, will
be the introduced ratings. So on one

532
00:39:44.039 --> 00:39:45.719
of them. This is a bit
of an inside Baseball Live line number six,

533
00:39:46.360 --> 00:39:51.639
but on another level, it's just
super practical because your entire experience of

534
00:39:51.719 --> 00:39:54.119
work is seeing to these racings.
And the bottom line on this release,

535
00:39:54.159 --> 00:39:58.320
as you saw from me in the
book, is we've got forty years of

536
00:39:58.400 --> 00:40:02.039
data on this, and it's really
clear humans are horribly unreliable raters of other

537
00:40:02.119 --> 00:40:08.280
humans. The only thing that we're
reliable rats of is our own experiences.

538
00:40:08.519 --> 00:40:14.159
We can rate our feelings, we
can rate whether we feel confused. We

539
00:40:14.199 --> 00:40:17.599
can rate whether we feel frightened.
We can rate. And of course the

540
00:40:17.639 --> 00:40:22.039
best example of this is we can
rate our own pain. And so when

541
00:40:22.039 --> 00:40:25.440
the doctor has given you an operation
and comes in afterwards and wants to see

542
00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:29.719
how you're doing. The doctor,
when they say, on a scale of

543
00:40:29.719 --> 00:40:31.639
one to term a turn high,
rate your pain. When you say three,

544
00:40:32.480 --> 00:40:37.239
she doesn't say that's not three.
I'm a doctor, I actually know

545
00:40:37.280 --> 00:40:40.760
what your pain is. Your pain
is the five. Besides, we run

546
00:40:40.760 --> 00:40:46.239
out of three's, and so you
know, so we know where there's real

547
00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:51.519
science involved. We know that reliable
data is really important, and we know

548
00:40:51.599 --> 00:40:54.920
that all of these performance data,
potential data, rating data, none of

549
00:40:54.960 --> 00:41:00.000
it is reliable. In fact,
what's really worrying about it is we actually

550
00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:06.119
know what causes the variance in ratings
that you might be getting from your manager.

551
00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:10.639
What causes the variance isn't anything to
do with you. What causes the

552
00:41:10.719 --> 00:41:16.960
variance is the manager. The manager
has what's called an idiosyncratic pattern of ratings,

553
00:41:17.480 --> 00:41:20.760
and she or he doesn't know it. And it's not a function of

554
00:41:20.800 --> 00:41:23.559
your gender or race. It's not
a function of unconscious bias towards your gender

555
00:41:23.639 --> 00:41:28.840
or ethnicity. It's almost like they
can't even see you at all. They

556
00:41:28.960 --> 00:41:31.840
have a natural pattern of ratings.
They might use the entire scale, they

557
00:41:31.880 --> 00:41:36.920
might skew right, they might skew
left, they might just use the middle.

558
00:41:37.719 --> 00:41:42.159
They have this idiosyncratic pattern of ratings. And all the research on this

559
00:41:42.280 --> 00:41:46.320
shows that somewhere between sixty five and
seventy five percent of the variance in all

560
00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:50.760
of the ratings on you are a
function of the person doing the rating.

561
00:41:51.079 --> 00:41:53.559
They're not a function of you,
which is weird because we pay you,

562
00:41:53.679 --> 00:41:57.800
or promote you, or train you
as though your ratings given to you by

563
00:41:57.840 --> 00:42:00.599
other people reflect you, but they
don't. They reflect the other people.

564
00:42:01.679 --> 00:42:05.840
And of course one of the addition
to that is people say, what it

565
00:42:05.880 --> 00:42:08.679
doesn't matter if one person's videosyncratic.
We'll add five more sources. We'll do

566
00:42:08.719 --> 00:42:12.000
a three sixty, and then we
add all the ratings up, and then

567
00:42:12.079 --> 00:42:15.599
the overall average is probably you.
Well, for all of us who remember

568
00:42:15.639 --> 00:42:20.199
this time in math class, if
you've got systematic error, as in,

569
00:42:20.760 --> 00:42:23.719
for example, if your thermometer is
broken, then it doesn't matter how many

570
00:42:23.800 --> 00:42:30.079
ratings or how many measurements of temperature
your thermometer takes the thermometer is broken,

571
00:42:30.480 --> 00:42:34.800
so more data just makes more error, not less. And in this case,

572
00:42:35.320 --> 00:42:39.760
our rating thermometer is broken. We
have systematic error in all of our

573
00:42:39.880 --> 00:42:45.880
ratings. Okay, that's a huge
problem. Yes, it is. Will

574
00:42:45.920 --> 00:42:52.159
never see you, that's what That's
what that chapter is all about. I

575
00:42:52.239 --> 00:42:54.760
know, Marcus, and I'm telling
you it is so mind blowing how useful

576
00:42:54.800 --> 00:42:58.119
that is. And yet there's just
one quick quote that I want to say

577
00:42:58.119 --> 00:43:00.440
to add to that that just grabbed
me. You say, the idiosyncrasy of

578
00:43:00.480 --> 00:43:05.840
the rating pattern system stems from the
uniqueness of the rader and doesn't appear to

579
00:43:05.840 --> 00:43:08.159
have much of anything to do with
a person being rated. In fact,

580
00:43:08.239 --> 00:43:13.440
it's pretty much as though the person
isn't there at all. Oh my gosh.

581
00:43:13.519 --> 00:43:15.559
If that's not a problem, I
don't know what is. Yeah,

582
00:43:15.599 --> 00:43:21.760
it's we think that these rating tools
that we have our windows that allow us

583
00:43:21.800 --> 00:43:24.519
to see a person and the more
specific and behavioral the questions in the rating

584
00:43:24.599 --> 00:43:29.039
system. Supposedly it's a clearer window. But what we know from data is

585
00:43:29.079 --> 00:43:32.159
that it's not a window. It's
a mirror. These rating systems, all

586
00:43:32.199 --> 00:43:37.320
of them, they're just me bouncing
me back at me, and you can't

587
00:43:37.360 --> 00:43:40.320
train it out of people. I
mean, this has huge implications for schools,

588
00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:44.480
obviously because of the ton of rating
that goes on in schools, but

589
00:43:45.079 --> 00:43:49.199
it has massive implications for the world
to work. We all ought to be

590
00:43:49.280 --> 00:43:53.440
more data fluent, and a lot
of this stuff that we're fed at work

591
00:43:53.559 --> 00:43:57.639
around our ratings and who we are
because of the ratings, and what we

592
00:43:57.639 --> 00:44:02.559
should do with us because of the
ratings. We need to pop this balloon

593
00:44:02.760 --> 00:44:08.559
before this thing gets out of hand. We are not reliable rats of other

594
00:44:08.599 --> 00:44:15.159
people and we never will be.
I cannot hold a concept like strategic thinking

595
00:44:15.239 --> 00:44:20.360
in my head and reach into your
head and rate you on it, and

596
00:44:20.400 --> 00:44:22.840
then turn to the person next to
you, hold the constant concept in my

597
00:44:22.880 --> 00:44:28.119
head of strategic thinking and rate them
on the same concept by reaching into their

598
00:44:28.119 --> 00:44:31.000
head. I can't do that.
So that means all of my ratings on

599
00:44:31.079 --> 00:44:38.280
you are rubbish. They're just noise. And you know, we need to

600
00:44:38.920 --> 00:44:43.880
actually look at that as a reality, which it is, be free thinking

601
00:44:43.960 --> 00:44:47.360
about it. They'll pretend it's not
true because actually it is true that we're

602
00:44:47.400 --> 00:44:51.480
unreliable rats, and then we're going
to have to deal with that truth,

603
00:44:52.440 --> 00:44:54.960
which is there's ways to do it. You know, what are we rats

604
00:44:55.000 --> 00:44:58.480
off? Well, we are relivele
rates of own experience. I can tell

605
00:44:58.480 --> 00:45:00.760
you my pain, I can tell
you if I plan to vote to this

606
00:45:00.840 --> 00:45:04.199
person or that person. I can
tell you if I'm confused, I can

607
00:45:04.199 --> 00:45:07.519
tell you if I am passionate about
our vision emission. I can tell all

608
00:45:07.559 --> 00:45:12.440
those because that's just all me describing
me, which is not not interesting.

609
00:45:12.480 --> 00:45:15.920
It's really interesting, and that's really
good data. The bottom line I think

610
00:45:15.960 --> 00:45:21.599
on this release is that we've just
become we've overreached, we've stepped over the

611
00:45:21.639 --> 00:45:27.639
measurement bridge, and we're hurting people. And the good news Marcus, that

612
00:45:27.719 --> 00:45:30.039
I really appreciate about your book is
you come in and you show us how

613
00:45:30.079 --> 00:45:35.519
to write meaningful questions that will produce
what we're looking for. And that is

614
00:45:35.599 --> 00:45:37.599
gold. So listeners, if you're
hearing this going, oh my gosh,

615
00:45:37.639 --> 00:45:42.519
what do I do, he does
explain beautifully in the book how to write

616
00:45:42.599 --> 00:45:46.559
questions that will produce reliable, variable, and valid information. So just know

617
00:45:46.679 --> 00:45:50.840
that that's there. Marcus. We're
almost out of time, and I want

618
00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:52.519
to make sure we hit one more
of your lies. That is so important

619
00:45:52.559 --> 00:45:55.440
and a great way to finish the
show. And that is line number eight.

620
00:45:55.639 --> 00:46:00.719
Work life balance matters most. And
you distinguish in the book that it's

621
00:46:00.800 --> 00:46:04.599
not balanced between work and life.
That is the un helpful idea. But

622
00:46:04.719 --> 00:46:07.519
that we have the category is wrong. You say, what we all wrestle

623
00:46:07.599 --> 00:46:10.960
with every day in the real world
is not so much work and life as

624
00:46:10.960 --> 00:46:16.559
it is love and load say more
about that. Yeah, well this is

625
00:46:16.559 --> 00:46:20.480
a we could have written a whole
book on it. I mean, it's

626
00:46:22.039 --> 00:46:24.440
nobody takes anyone's loves seriously and yeah, each one of us. So I

627
00:46:24.480 --> 00:46:30.159
go back to my brother and my
sister, they just they there was emotional

628
00:46:30.239 --> 00:46:35.599
valence in different actions and activities and
contexts and situations. For my brother,

629
00:46:36.199 --> 00:46:38.920
there was different from me. He
was drawn to certain things more than I

630
00:46:39.079 --> 00:46:43.000
was. He got a kick out
of different things than I did. He

631
00:46:43.119 --> 00:46:46.360
got joy from different things than I
did. At a really granular levels.

632
00:46:46.400 --> 00:46:51.519
You look at the actual activities that
he found love in. Those were really

633
00:46:51.559 --> 00:46:54.119
different for him, really early on, from which came appetite, from which

634
00:46:54.159 --> 00:46:58.480
came practice, from which came more
sorts of things. But the beginning was

635
00:46:59.039 --> 00:47:04.159
the weird, uniquest of one's pattern
of loves you. Your first question of

636
00:47:04.159 --> 00:47:07.480
me was what's your career love story? That's a really cool way to say

637
00:47:07.480 --> 00:47:10.559
it. Actually, at the very
beginning of life, we unfortunately don't take

638
00:47:10.599 --> 00:47:15.760
these loves seriously. And yet all
of us, deep down we know there

639
00:47:15.800 --> 00:47:19.239
were certain activities that draw us in
and we're time flies by when we're doing

640
00:47:19.239 --> 00:47:22.800
them. We know that they're in
a sense that there aren't five love languages.

641
00:47:22.880 --> 00:47:27.599
To quote that Chatman book, there's
nine million. There are nine million

642
00:47:27.639 --> 00:47:30.119
love love languages. And the only
person that speaks to yours is you.

643
00:47:31.079 --> 00:47:34.599
And So, what you want in
life, whether it's at work, whether

644
00:47:34.639 --> 00:47:37.599
it's you as a father or mother, whether it's you as a friend or

645
00:47:37.639 --> 00:47:43.480
you in your community, you want
to have as many activity, situations,

646
00:47:43.519 --> 00:47:47.480
contexts that are love filled. You
want. I don't just mean like with

647
00:47:47.639 --> 00:47:52.280
people you love. I mean the
activity itself contains with it a little jolt

648
00:47:52.280 --> 00:47:54.719
of something that's good for you,
that lifts you up. That's what you

649
00:47:54.760 --> 00:48:00.199
want. You want an intentional imbalance
between love and load. Do you want

650
00:48:00.239 --> 00:48:04.840
more loves than loads in all aspects
of your life? Now, that's not

651
00:48:04.960 --> 00:48:08.400
easy because it begins with you going
do you actually know yourself well enough to

652
00:48:08.440 --> 00:48:13.679
know what kind of activities you love
at at the one foot level of detail,

653
00:48:13.719 --> 00:48:15.199
can you can you even think about
that? As you as a parent,

654
00:48:15.360 --> 00:48:19.760
you know which bits of parenting you
lean into and don't feel shame about

655
00:48:19.800 --> 00:48:23.119
the others. What are the ones
that really lift you up? It starts

656
00:48:23.159 --> 00:48:28.480
there, starts by honoring the fact
that your feelings about the activities you do

657
00:48:28.519 --> 00:48:31.199
in the week, all the day, that your emotional reaction to them is

658
00:48:31.199 --> 00:48:35.239
different than someone else's, and we've
got to help you figure that out and

659
00:48:35.239 --> 00:48:38.000
take responsibility for that, not to
be self indulgent, but so that you

660
00:48:38.000 --> 00:48:44.440
can contribute more so you can be
more resilient. The Mayo Clinic found that

661
00:48:44.480 --> 00:48:46.840
if nurses and doctors had only twenty
percent, did they just had twenty percent

662
00:48:47.719 --> 00:48:52.360
of their job doing activities that they
love, their levels of PTSD, the

663
00:48:52.519 --> 00:48:57.400
levels of burnout significantly fell. But
it's funny over twenty percent, if you

664
00:48:57.400 --> 00:49:01.360
get thirty thirty five percent, there
wasn't actually that much of a of a

665
00:49:01.440 --> 00:49:05.679
benefit that came from that. It's
almost like you don't need fifty percent of

666
00:49:05.719 --> 00:49:07.880
your life to be filled. It's
almost like a little love goes quite a

667
00:49:07.880 --> 00:49:13.280
long way. These that's what they
found in the research. And so for

668
00:49:13.400 --> 00:49:17.000
us, telling someone to balance work
in life is is a is a setting

669
00:49:17.039 --> 00:49:20.760
you up for failure. No one's
ever going to achieve it, and if

670
00:49:20.800 --> 00:49:23.280
you did, someone would be saying
to the people around you, don't move,

671
00:49:23.400 --> 00:49:29.239
I got it, don't move.
So balance is stasis. What we

672
00:49:29.280 --> 00:49:34.440
want is imbalance towards those things that
we love. Why because it means that

673
00:49:34.480 --> 00:49:39.239
we can contribute more and continue to
do it Because the activities themselves contain their

674
00:49:39.239 --> 00:49:43.239
own source of fuel. Marcus,
that is a beautiful way to finish.

675
00:49:43.320 --> 00:49:45.440
And we are smack out of time. So let me say thank you from

676
00:49:45.480 --> 00:49:49.159
the bottom of my heart and my
soul for joining us today. Thank you

677
00:49:49.199 --> 00:49:52.119
for giving us your gift, my
pleasure. Thank you for having me.

678
00:49:52.679 --> 00:49:54.480
You're welcome listeners. If you want
to learn more about Marcus, his books,

679
00:49:54.559 --> 00:49:58.440
or his work, start by visiting
his website, which is just simply

680
00:49:58.519 --> 00:50:01.840
Marcus Buckingham dot com. Last week, if you miss a live show,

681
00:50:01.840 --> 00:50:06.239
you can catch a via recorded podcast. We were on the Cherylynn talking about

682
00:50:06.239 --> 00:50:09.119
how she made her life stream come
true and founding the Joyle Studios, where

683
00:50:09.159 --> 00:50:13.679
she and her team help inspire all
on the joyful evolution of thought to vision,

684
00:50:13.920 --> 00:50:16.199
vision to dream, dream to goal, and goal to reality. Next

685
00:50:16.199 --> 00:50:21.760
week we'll be on there d'artinea Sanguan, an internal medicine position and founder of

686
00:50:21.800 --> 00:50:25.079
Intuitive Intelligence and author of talk RX. We're talking about how to understand where

687
00:50:25.079 --> 00:50:30.000
our emotions are generated and how we
can understand and access them for optimal health.

688
00:50:30.239 --> 00:50:31.199
See you there. Remember that work
is at least a third of our

689
00:50:31.199 --> 00:50:39.800
lives, So let's work on purpose. We hope you've enjoyed this week's program.

690
00:50:40.119 --> 00:50:44.599
Be sure to tune in to Working
on Purpose, featuring your host,

691
00:50:44.599 --> 00:50:49.960
doctor Elise Cortes, each week on
the Voice America Empowerment Channel. Together,

692
00:50:50.280 --> 00:50:57.239
we'll create a world where business operates
conscientiously, leadership inspires impassioned performance, and

693
00:50:57.320 --> 00:51:01.480
employees are fulfilled in work that provides
them meaning and purpose they crave. See

694
00:51:01.519 --> 00:51:04.840
you there, Let's work on purpose.