From Striving to Serenity: Navigating the Second Half of Life

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What's working on purpose anyway? Each
week we ponder the answer to this question.

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People ache for meaning and purpose at
work, to contribute their talents passionately

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and know their lives really matter.
They crave being part of an organization that

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inspires them and helps them grow into
realizing their highest potential. Business can be

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such a force for good in the
world, elevating humanity. In our program,

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we provide guidance and inspiration to help
usher in this world we all want

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Working on purpose. Now Here is
your host, doctor Elise Cortes hi Er.

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Welcome back to the Working on Purpose
Program. Thanks for tuning and again

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this week I'm your host, doctor
Relie Cortes. Join you live from Dallas,

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which is home base for me.
If you don't know me yet,

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I'm a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose, organizational lag with therapists,

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inspirational speaker, social scientist, and
author. I help companies discover and articulate

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their purpose to through it through culture
and operations. I work with organizations to

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develop inspirational leaders who create cultures where
people actually want to come to work and

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do their best. And I provide
programs like the Grab Your Gusto that enable

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individual team members to discover and unlease
their passion and purpose at work to catalyze

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fulfillment, engagement in productivity. You
can learn more about me and how we

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can work together at atleastcretes dot com
or gustodashnow dot com. Let me thank

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my partner and sponsor work Proud.
We are a perfect collaboration. Everyone wants

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to know they matter and that the
work they do is meaningful and appreciated.

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Work Proud helps companies dojust that through
their mobile platform that is built to encourage

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employees to share stories and recognize each
other's contribution. Work Proud empowers hr and

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business leaders to help create company cultures
where all employees are inspired to feel proud

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of their work and proud of their
company. Learn more about work Proud and

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the recent study they've commissioned about pride
in the workplace at workprout dot com with

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us today our two learned Rabbi women. Rabbi Makadrucker has written twenty one books,

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including The Southwest p Penn Award winner
Whitefire, a Portrait of Women's Spiritual

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Leaders in America and Christopher Award winner
Rescuers, Portraits of Moral Courage and Holocaust.

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She was most recently the Rabbi of
Temple Har Shalom in Idlewood, California,

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from twenty sixteen to twenty twenty one. Also with us is Rabbi Nadia

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Gross. She's the director of the
Hashbaya training program for Jewish spiritual directors in

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the alef Ordination Program. Together they
co authored Embracing Wisdom, Soaring in the

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Second Half of Life, which will
be discussing today. Rabbi Markol joins a

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day from Santa Barbara, California,
and Rabbi Nadia is coming in from Boulder,

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Colorado. Nadia and Malka, welcome
to Working on Purpose. Thank you,

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thank you, and so great to
have you both here. And as

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you know, the show is really
designed to be able to help develop conscious

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leaders who are trying to elevate people
in the workplace, and we do business

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at Betters of the World, And
the reason I wanted to have the two

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of you on is because I think
that the work that you're doing to really

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steward people from aging to saging,
as you say, is really a critical

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element and a dimension and a lifeline
for us as we continue our trek through

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the world. Of work, and
I think what you put forth is so

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important because, as you say in
your book, you know, increasingly more

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of the elder population is getting pushed
out of the workplace when they don't want

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to. They're so much more to
offer. Still, So as we settle

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into our conversation today, I want
to first start by talking about just how

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in the world that it happened that
the two of you came together to write

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this book. It came out in
twenty nineteen. How did the magic happen?

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Well, at least I can tell
you that way back in two thousand

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and nine or twenty ten, as
Malka entered a program that I was on

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the faculty to train saging mentors,
to train people to deliver this work from

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aging to saging that was sourced in
our teacher, Rabbi Zalmudschack Shilomi, And

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of course I was getting to know
Malca. We were developing a friendship.

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I knew that she was an amazing
writer, and during the two years of

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that training program, I brought to
her a workbook that I used when I

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trained, End of Life Doula's a
workbook on for people who were dying,

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which I thought was fabulous, and
I said to Malca, this work needs

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a work book like this. I
think you should write it. And Malca,

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Malca, I think probably thought about
it for about twenty seconds and said,

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well, I'll write it if you'll
write it with me. So tells

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me about right, So that's where
the idea began. She insisted that I'd

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had more content. Of course,
she's also, you know, my elder.

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She likes to remind me often that
she's ten years older than me,

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and therefore we also had that span
of perspective. I had been doing the

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saging work since before I was fifty, and so really became my spiritual practice

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for eldering through the decades. We
got Rabbi Zalvin Shacter Shlomi was still alive

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then, and Malka brought the idea
to him and he blessed us on this

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endeavor. And then life got in
the way. Both she and I were

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busy with many, many other things, and in twenty fourteen, our beloved

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Rebsalmond died and sometime after that Malca
came to me and said, well,

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we got the blessing, so I
think we need to do this job.

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And we began our process of working
together and living in two different parts of

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the country. We would get together
on Skype that was before zoom, and

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we had our book on a Google
doc which meant that we could see what

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was being written live at the same
time, and we started our process.

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We would engage in conversation with each
other. We would imagine what this next

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chapter was about, and then one
of us would begin to write, and

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the other would edit what the other
one was writing, and then the next

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one would take over. And so
the book was written as a conversation,

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really in conversation and in relationship,
and in the process I learned how to

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write a book from my beloved elder, who is really the expert. How

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beautiful. I'm so grateful that that
came together. As we were talking about

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before we got on air. I
read your book cover to cover as I

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do all of my guests, and
of course I take copy notes, and

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I want to do next really share
some of the points that I thought were

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really really pertinent to what I know
my listeners have surfaced over the years,

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and so I'll do what I do
for a lot of these conversations where we're

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kind of dig deep into the real, beautiful depth of what you wrote about

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and have you really kind of expand
on that. So one of the first

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things that I wanted to talk about
is just really the promise of what you're

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putting forth in the book. You
know, people talk about, oh,

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I'm getting old, you know,
I can't do as much and have as

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much energy, oh whatever. But
what I appreciated about the what you've done

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in your book, among other things, is you talk about this own opening

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new space. And so if we
situated in context, you talk about how

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Eric Erickson, who was the early
twentieth century developmental psychologist, saw eight life

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stages from birth to death, and
his seventh stage, which is adulthood,

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spans twenty six to sixty four,
which is crazy. And the eighth stage,

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which he called old age, is
from sixty five to death. And

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yet in the twenty first century,
we are enjoying a brand new developmental stage

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never known to the generations preceding us, a chapter as significant as adolescents.

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You say, tell us more,
that's beautiful, Well, thank you,

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Elise. I actually learned about the
new stage from Mary Catherine Batesen, who

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died this year, and in her
book Composing a Further Life, and it

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was she who suggested the notion of
adulthood too, because this is our general

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is revolutionary and that no generation before
us has had this length of time to

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gestate wisdom. So we have this
extended period now to harvest not only because

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we've lived we get to live long
enough, but also because we live in

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a time where technology has given us
tools to harvest from many other faith's traditions

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besides our own, to really see
different approaches to aging. And we've often

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said, you know that if you
were a child, perhaps growing up in

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India, especially out of the cities
but in villages, that who would you

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want to be when you grew up
your grandparents because they were the ones who

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were listened to, They're the ones
who respected in the traditional indigenous societies.

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We have grown up at a time
of the industrial revolution where it's the opposite.

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The faster you are this, you
know, the younger you are,

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the more advantage you have. There's
no such thing as apprenticeship anymore. So

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that we you know, we really
saw that in fact, here we were

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given this time. ESSENTI. We're
given this time. Then it becomes a

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great discovery of why what is there
for us to learn okay, and that

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brings me to the next point.
Thank you for that, mom, because

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that was just yummy, and just
you did something similar to what you just

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did there in the book, which
was just so great. So why is

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that interesting to me somebody who's who's
totally anchored in meaning and purpose. You

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then go on kind of extending that
idea. You share a quote by Rabbi

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Salman schacht Slami. You say that
he says, why should anyone live longer

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than the time of begetting and raising
children? If we do live longer,

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then nature must have a task.
There must be some kind of purpose.

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The purpose is and I love this
phrase to hot house consciousness generation by generation,

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so that the older generation and can
transmit something to the younger. Yes,

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yes, and yes, yes,
indeed so. Rabbi Zalman Shakta Shalomi,

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we call him Reb Salmon, so
it's an easier way to refer to

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him Reb Salmon, our teacher and
really the founder of this work and started

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the whole process of spiritual eldering way
back in the early nineties. He consciousness

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purpose, meaning, those were those
were the tools that he worked with.

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Those are the things that gave his
life juice. In fact, he's quoted

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as saying, the afterlife I can
look forward to is that I'll be able

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to pour all my experience into the
storehouse of the planet so that human awareness

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can grow a little more. So. His whole idea, this hothousing consciousness,

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right, was that we as humanity
are continuously consciously evolving, and with

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that evolution, we want to transmit, We want to capture it, hothouse

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it, let it grow, and
transmit it to the next generation. And

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he developed ideas about mentoring, and
he saw mentoring as a two way relationship,

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not just the elder pouring information in
a funnel into the head of the

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younger, but that relational aspect.
And with every relationship he felt his consciousness

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grew and expanded. And so that
was what he saw as our opportunity.

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When we grow to that beyond the
child rearing years, where we're no longer

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totally focused on our own children,
our own family, or or whatever children

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we're engaged with, what do we
do as elders, right, there is

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something that wants to be developed,
nurtured, nourished, and grown and then

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transmitted. Not exactly smacks in align
with what I've sort of come to believe

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about this ongoing stewarting of consciousness through
our lives as we serve through our purpose.

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So I'm so happy that I've gotten
to know him, even though I

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didn't get to meet him in person, I'm getting to know him through you.

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So sounds like he and I had
an awful lot in common in the

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way we think. So thank you
for that. So okay, So the

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next thing I want to get to
is you did something really gobsmacking for me

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in the beginning of your book when
you introduce the notion of our lives as

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one cycle of a year. So
each one of those it's so you know,

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it's twelve months basically to comprise our
whole life. And I did that

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exercise and I found it to be
extremely useful. So can you tell us

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where did this come from? This
exercise and why does it work so well?

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Why is it so efficacious? Well, at least I'd love to take

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credit for the brilliance of it,
but I can't. It's actually Rebsalman's concept,

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as we put together. First of
all, seven is a magical number

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in Judism, and then also other
othersations, seven is a number of completion.

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So seven became a natural and apparently
there's a biological basis for this as

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well, in the body that every
seven years is a certain arinuwal so Rebsalman

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took the twelve months and divided our
lots into seven year intervals, so that

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January is zero to seven and then
February eight to fourteen, et cetera.

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And what's wonderful about this, and
I'm glad that it worked for you,

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is because you take your life in
little bites. What's the word. They're

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not for spies, like a little
order or a little out, Yeah,

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an appetet. It's much easier to
do that than to look at your whole

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life. Can you sit down,
I'm gonna write my memoir. Oh you

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know, where do you start with
this? So you get little bites,

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then you're able to enter into it. Now as a writer, I really

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saw the benefit of this as a
structure for a memoir. That this would

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be that I could teach this and
say a six week class. I could

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give people a way to write for
each chapter of their lives so far,

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so that they would depending on their
age, you know, I have ten

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chapters or perhaps twelve chapters, depending
on how old they were, and that

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in doing this and doing this it
look. The other thing is what Noga

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didn't say about our working together is
there were two things here. One is

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I was really looking to write another
book, and my passion now is turning

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to this work that I was learning
to Nauga and other teachers. The other

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thing is I've yet to meet a
rabbi who doesn't want to write a book.

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I know that I can say to
any rabbi in lack community, want

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to write a book with me,
They're going to say, yes. It

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could be about baseball, be about
anything. So I knew that I could,

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you know, and I could do
this. And I actually am feeling

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very much that in doing this work
as a stagey mentor as a writer,

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that's the combination of those who skills. This is really a moment when people

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perhaps have the time and this desire, this is the purpose to sort of

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do this hardest thing of our lives. So this structure of the seven year

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twelve months is perfect for the harvest
so young. I can hang out of

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this all day long. With that
though, here we are time for our

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first break. It goes by so
fast. I'm your host, Doctor Elise

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Cortez. We've been on the air
with the authors of Embracing Wisdom, Soaring

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in the Second Half of Life.
Those authors are Rabbi Malca Trucker and Rabbi

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Nadia Gross. We've been talking a
bit about where the book came from and

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some of the opportunities of living from
aging to saging. After the break,

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we're going to get into this really
interesting concept called recontextualizing our lives. Stay

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with us, we'll be right back. Doctor Release Cortes is a management consultant

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specializing in meaning and purpose and inspirational
speaker and author. She helps companies visioneer

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for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop
purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that

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elevate fulfillment, performance, and commitment
within the workforce. To learn more or

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to invite Elise to speak to your
organization, please visit her at Eleasecortes dot

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com. Let's talk about how to
get your employees working on purpose. This

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is working on purpose with doctor Release
Cortes. To reach our program today or

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open a conversation with Elise, send
an email to a lease Alise at Eleascortes

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dot com. Now back to working
on purpose. Thanks for staying with us

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and welcome back to working on purpose. Before we get back to the program,

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I do want to invite you to
check out my first book, which

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came out in November. It's called
Purpose Ignited, How Inspiring Leaders Unite passion

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and la cause. It's on Amazon. I wrote this book to awakened readers

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to their passion of purpose and help
transform them to inspirational leaders that actually help

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bring out people to their best.
And I wrote it as a basis to

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be able to create and serve for
my programs. I grab your gus during

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the Biolin Inspire programs, so I
hope you'll enjoy it if you're just joining

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the program today. My guests are
authors of Embracing Wisdom, so in the

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second half of Life, Rabbi Maka
Druncker and Rabbi Nadia Gross. Let's first

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before we get into some of that
recontextualizing stuff that I think is so fascinating,

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I do want to hit an important
point that you brought up that I

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wanted to talk about, and that
is this idea of coming to terms with

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our mortality. I really love this
as somebody who works in purpose in the

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purpose space, because purpose and part
works because we don't get forever. So

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what I thought was so beautiful about
what you've written here again from Revzelman.

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When we come to terms with our
mortality, we enter the present moment with

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fearlessness, increased intensity, and a
sense of gratitude that makes everyone and everything

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seem almost unbearably precious. Wow.
Yeah, it's breathless. That's a breathless

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quote, right. I just I
love it, and I will let you

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in on a little secret. This
is one of the areas of Malka and

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I had a lot of tussling because
I had worked for many, many years

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in the field of death and dying. I trained end of life doulas I

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work with people at end of life
I've made I've become comfortable with my own

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mortality and with the fact of mortality, and it was one of those things

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that I had to get on board
with me to be as as available to

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this conversation as I feel I am. And what I see in this quote

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and what I've experienced in my own
work, is that the thing that fear

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of dying, or that idea that
death is something that happens to everybody else

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but not me, right, which
you know is A wonderful quote from another

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rabbi is we expend a lot of
our personal energy keeping death at bay.

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Right, as long as I ignore
the fact of my mortality, as long

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as I fear the fact of my
mortality, then a huge chunk of my

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personal energy is being devoted to keeping
that door shut, to keeping that idea

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at bay. When I come to
terms with the fact that I am mortal,

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and that life will end at some
time, and there are no guarantees,

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and I don't know when that will
be. When I come to terms

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with that, the first thing is
I free up all of that energy,

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yes, to be present to the
life I am living right now. The

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other pieces that when I acknowledge and
accept the fact that my life will end,

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that there are no guarantees, it
means that this present moment is the

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most precious thing I have, because
I don't know if there'll be a next

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moment or a tomorrow. So I
so it wakes me up to the to

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the gift of life, to the
beauty of life, to the magnificence of

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this present moment, and it inspires
me to live fully this present moment,

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not to waste the drop of it. That that's what Rebzalman is saying,

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I believe here, and that's what
I've come to learn in the work that

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I've done all these years. Two
things to that, no jam One is

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that smacks of this this Japanese concept
called ichigo itch which I had. I

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featured the authors of that idea on
my on my show a couple of years

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ago, and it's the same thing
that cherished this moment because it will never

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come again kind of thing. It's
what's sort of what the concept is about.

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That's the first thing. Then what
I want to get to is,

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now you talk about this idea of
mortality that on the other, maybe not

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the other end of that, but
certainly on the other's fear of that is

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this notion of the quintessential midlife crisis, which I find so fascinating. I've

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it's a it's a believe it is
a real phenomenon. However, you know,

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you talk about it as it's this
notion of something is missing. We

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don't know exactly what it is,
and it's definitely wreaking emotional havoc on us.

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I've come to understand that it's an
existential crisis and it's it's an important

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part of navigating our journeys. I
would say yes, I agree. There's

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no question that it is essential.
Richard Roar has said that all the skills

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that you need for the first half
of your life are irrelevant or interfering with

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the second half of life that you're
going to live forever. So that you

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have no fear. You just plunge
into whatever it should be, and for

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a long part of your life you
get to stay up all day and all

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night and have a great time,
and then the day comes where suddenly you

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discover you can't do that anymore.
Now, what's going to happen for a

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lot of us, we could have
come into this as you say that you

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have mid life crisis, doing it
as actually a pathology. What is wrong

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with me? What I used to
do? What you know? And because

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things like intuition, which become part
of the compass of the second half of

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life, which is why actually you
can soar in the second half of life.

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Because you don't have to continually have
the ego make every decision for you.

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You begin to listen more carefully to
something within and you may not have

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an answer to what the purpose is. Look, let's say you have been

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by outward standards and Western standards,
enormously successful, and everything he's set out

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to get, you've got, you
know, the perfect partner, You've got,

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the perfect children, the house,
the car, the work, everything.

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You've got everything, And why aren't
you a happy camper? That it

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is, by the way, where
Rebzoalon began his work. He was sixty

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years old. Things were going pretty
well for him. He was doing fine

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professionally and personally. Everything was okay. But there was this little bitch,

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this little flatness, this dullness that
he couldn't understand what it was. So

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he decided to take a forty day
retreat. And he talks about this in

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his book where the Pioneering Book,
and he says he went to Lama Foundation

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in Taos, New Mexico, and
after forty days he came down the mountain

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and he knew exactly what this was
about. It was about living in a

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society that basically tells says to you, you might as well be dead.

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You're not reproducing anymore, you're not
working hard anymore. What's your purpose?

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So if you're in a society that
and you know, and suddenly you know,

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if you're a woman and a lover
looked at the way you once looked

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at twenty years ago, and what's
your value? And if you're a guy

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and you're being passed over because younger
people are covering into position, what's your

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value? And that was what grab
Zalman wanted this generation to recognize that it

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had value, it had purpose,
and that by doing the exercises and doing

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this work with others and being real
and being honest about what your real fears

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were, that we would come to
discover the meaning and purpose of our lives

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that we had no glimpse of in
the first half m hm. So aligned,

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so aligned Robbie Michael with what the
work I've been doing as well in

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the Awakening piece and using that discomfort
to go and discover and look, and

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there's something in that. There's there's
a I like to call it a wild

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and life scratching to understand what's behind
that and what it presents and what's there

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for us to see. And I
love that. I would have loved to

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have met that man, So I'll
have to read more of his works.

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So with that, let's get into
this notion of recontextualizing. I think this

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is so so important, especially you
know, as we go through the aging

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to saging process, and this is
such a it's so again smacks so beautifully

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in the work that I do.
But you say, when we live long

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enough, we see that we have
a new way to tell our story.

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Times get time gives us the detachment
to gain a larger perspective. While several

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interpretations of an event may all be
true, recontextualizing calls us to find the

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story that serves us best. So
we step back and we tell a different

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story. So, first of you
could say a bit more about this notion

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of recontextualizing and maybe some of its
benefits, and then give us an example.

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You do one beautiful in the book
if you want to share that,

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but give us an example of what
this looks like. Well, this is

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actually something that I think it's at
the heart of the staging work. You

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know, besides coming to terms with
our mortality, is that ability to take

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the long view of our lives and
understand it for what it is, and

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recognize the gifts even in the difficult
moments, and tell our story differently.

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I grew up with a grandmother who, from the time I was a very

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young child, would say to me, is that really the way you want

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to tell that story. I'd come
to her with a victims story. You

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know, somebody did this to me, whatever it is, that how you

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want to tell that story. So
from a very young age, I learned

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that there are different lenses. But
rebsalmon teaches us is that, you know,

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we go through life and we carry
with us stories of different moments in

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our lives, different experiences, and
we schleft these in his language, right,

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we schleft these stories as this was
a time that something terrible was done

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to me. And this is a
moment that I remember with shame, and

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I hope nobody else remembers that one
because I feel so ashamed or this is

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a moment where I don't know,
I was so wounded and nobody was there

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for me. And then when we
take the long view of those experiences,

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so I can give you an example
that was actually one of the examples that

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Revzalman often would use, and that
was an example of being fired from a

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job, right, being fired from
a job and carrying the memory for so

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many years of this guy did me
wrong. They didn't understand me, you

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know, And and all I remember
about that moment is that it is how

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wronged I felt, and how wrong
the whole outcome was. Now I take

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a look at the long view of
my life and I see, and this

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will be Rebsalmon's story that as a
result of being fired from this job where

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he was a congregational rabbi, he
moved into the life that we ultimately met

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him in this you know, global
rabbi and teacher, a man who started

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so many different programs and inspired so
many other leaders in the world. And

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if he had remained in that little
synagogue, which he could have done the

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rest of his life like many rabbis
you know, or other spiritual leaders do,

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he would have never reached that big
stage. And so now he could

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look back at that moment and bless
it. He could recognize it. Rather

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than being so angry or feeling ashamed
or feeling like this was a shameful chapter

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in his life because he you know, he wasn't good enough to be there

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rabbi, he can see it as
this was the moment where my life took

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a big turn, and now I'm
so grateful for it. That's a recontextualizing.

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And I think Malca can tell the
other story because it's really her story.

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The story that we tell in the
book, or a story that she

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knew, not her personal story.
Please do malk up. Well, this

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is a story about a woman who's
a photographer, had her first show and

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was very excited about our first show, and a lot of people were in

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the gallery that night, and then
her mother came in. And her mother

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was a vain woman, somewhat narcissistic. It wasn't exactly the easiest relationship this

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this artist had with her mother.
And her mother comes up to her and

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the artist has the expectation that a
mother is going to say congratulations, but

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instead her mother says, how do
you like my necklace? And the artist

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is like ah, And it became
the perfect narcissistic mother story for years and

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years and years. After the mother
dies, the artist decides she's going to

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write a book, a memoir about
the mother, and in doing this,

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she looks at the photographs, at
the photographs, looks at the photograph of

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the necklace that the mother was wearing, and she realizes that it was a

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piece like anything else from other owned. It was contemporary, it was modern,

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if you will, and it was
clear she had bought it purposely for

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this occasion, thinking that her daughter
this would be something her daughter would really

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like, and that it was in
a sense honoring the daughter, honoring the

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evening. So all those years later
she came to realize what it was.

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And look, a lot of the
apologies that we make, if we're lucky,

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we get to do them while we're
both on the planet. But we

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do find ourselves at a certain point
in our lives making apologies for things that

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we did a long time ago,
and maybe those people aren't here anymore to

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receive them, or at least we
hope in some realm that by doing this

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there is some repair by our coming
to understand the truth of that moment,

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and that we've gotten to tell at
least a better story than the story we

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told ourselves as victims from years.
So empowering, which is why I wanted

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you to share that so beautiful.
It also really aligns us on the logo

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therapy work that I do as well. So here we are already coming to

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our next break. I'm your host, doctor Release Cortes. We put on

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the air with the authors of Embracing
Wisdom Soaring in the Second half of Life.

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Those authors are Rabbi Malk Drucker and
Rabbi Nadia Gross. We've been talking

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a bit about this idea of recontextualization. After the break, we're going to

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talk a bit about some of those
beautiful mistakes that we've made along the way

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and what they really are as gifts. Stay with us, We'll be right

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back. Doctor Release Cortes is a
management consultant specializing in meaning and purpose and

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00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:47.039
inspirational speaker and author. She helps
companies visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and

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develop purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused
cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and

406
00:32:54.200 --> 00:32:59.759
commitment within the workforce. To learn
more or to invite Elise to speak to

407
00:32:59.759 --> 00:33:04.839
your organization, please visit her at
elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how

408
00:33:04.839 --> 00:33:15.200
to get your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose with doctor

409
00:33:15.240 --> 00:33:20.839
Elise Cortes. To reach our program
today or open a conversation with Alise,

410
00:33:21.200 --> 00:33:28.519
send an email to a lease Alise
at elisecortes dot com. Now back to

411
00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:32.200
working on purpose. Thanks for staining
with us, and welcome back to working

412
00:33:32.240 --> 00:33:36.279
on purpose. Another thing I want
to share with you, this just came

413
00:33:36.319 --> 00:33:38.400
out, this just in if you
will, is this anthology that I've been

414
00:33:38.440 --> 00:33:44.160
curating for the last two years where
I have literally scoured the globe for twenty

415
00:33:44.160 --> 00:33:46.480
five women to share the most intimate
stories of how they've discovered their purpose and

416
00:33:46.519 --> 00:33:50.599
are now serving from it. So
it's just come out a few weeks ago.

417
00:33:50.680 --> 00:33:52.759
It's called Passionately Striving and Why,
and I'm so proud of it I

418
00:33:52.759 --> 00:33:57.640
could bust. And so we celebrated
that just a couple of weeks ago,

419
00:33:57.759 --> 00:34:00.319
and Rabbi Maka also put some words
of testing in that for us as well,

420
00:34:00.359 --> 00:34:04.000
so I wanted to share that with
you. Check it out if you're

421
00:34:04.039 --> 00:34:07.359
just joining us, my guests,
our Rabbi Malka Drucker and Nadia Gross.

422
00:34:07.799 --> 00:34:12.039
Let's get next into this notion of
mistakes. We kind of we did sort

423
00:34:12.039 --> 00:34:14.800
of surface them in the last little
bit there, but I think this is

424
00:34:14.920 --> 00:34:19.199
so so important for our listeners to
get it so yummy, so you also

425
00:34:19.239 --> 00:34:22.840
write you see, perhaps the ultimate
wisdom isn't so much in our transmission of

426
00:34:22.880 --> 00:34:28.280
what we know as in allowing the
generations to have their own experiences. They

427
00:34:28.360 --> 00:34:31.679
need their mistakes. When we look
at what life has taught you, most

428
00:34:31.719 --> 00:34:38.280
of the biggest lessons came from falling
down. Yes, ma'am, ma'am's yes,

429
00:34:38.480 --> 00:34:45.239
yes, yes, at least absolutely. I think if we can be

430
00:34:45.360 --> 00:34:51.039
really honest with ourselves and tell ourselves
the truth about ourselves, those things that

431
00:34:51.119 --> 00:34:58.880
we are most proud of in our
character, in our accomplishments, in our

432
00:34:58.920 --> 00:35:07.840
relationships emerged out of big oopses.
We learn incredible lessons when we fail,

433
00:35:08.320 --> 00:35:13.880
and that's that's the work. That's
that's the work of spiritual practice. That's

434
00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:19.400
the work of you know, the
soul's evolution, and of seeking meaning in

435
00:35:19.519 --> 00:35:23.719
everything that we are and everything that
we do. I'll tell you a wonderful

436
00:35:24.480 --> 00:35:30.519
story of Rebsalmon. Right right near
the end of his life, the last

437
00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:36.480
book that he was a part of
came out called The December Project, written

438
00:35:36.519 --> 00:35:40.599
by Sarah Davidson, and he was
chronicling his December years. We talked before

439
00:35:40.679 --> 00:35:47.320
about the cycle of our lives as
a so he was chronicling the December years

440
00:35:47.880 --> 00:35:55.280
and they had a public celebration and
questions and answers here in Boulder, Colorado,

441
00:35:55.440 --> 00:36:01.800
where Rebsalmon lived, and and he
said, at a certain point,

442
00:36:01.920 --> 00:36:07.559
you know, there are times that
I still want to get angry with my

443
00:36:07.719 --> 00:36:13.079
younger self, and I want to
say to my younger self, why did

444
00:36:13.119 --> 00:36:16.159
you do that? Or why weren't
you smarter about this thing? Or how

445
00:36:16.199 --> 00:36:21.199
could you have made this kind of
mistake? He said? And then I

446
00:36:21.360 --> 00:36:27.719
experience my younger self standing up to
me and saying, don't you blame me,

447
00:36:27.880 --> 00:36:31.440
old man, it's because of me
that you are you. M hm,

448
00:36:31.719 --> 00:36:36.199
oh, that's so good, so
good, it's so good, it's

449
00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:38.000
so right. Thank you for generating
out the way that you did. It's

450
00:36:38.079 --> 00:36:43.440
gorgeous. And then we have to
go on to another part here. It's

451
00:36:43.519 --> 00:36:46.039
just amazing to me how many overlaps
there are and what you've written about and

452
00:36:46.360 --> 00:36:53.079
my methodology and approach so definitely overlap
here. When you say, only when

453
00:36:53.079 --> 00:36:58.360
we no longer have the mini task
of the second act can we reflect upon

454
00:36:58.360 --> 00:37:00.960
what it means that we did those
things. This is when we begin to

455
00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:05.719
think about legacy and the purpose of
our lives. Without purpose, we lose

456
00:37:05.800 --> 00:37:08.400
zest and passion for living. Jewel
of de viv is a key part of

457
00:37:08.480 --> 00:37:14.840
wisdom. Amen, sisters, Amen, Yeah, I mean, I you

458
00:37:14.840 --> 00:37:21.239
know what I've thought about since actually
writing a book that when Nadia and I

459
00:37:21.320 --> 00:37:27.599
talked about this is what happens for
people who never developed a practice of God

460
00:37:27.679 --> 00:37:32.519
DEVIV. Yeah, this is a
major difficulty. However, I will say

461
00:37:32.559 --> 00:37:37.599
that there. You know, people
at different stages of their lives may come

462
00:37:37.639 --> 00:37:42.719
to a certain awakening. There's no
question for a lot of us that being

463
00:37:42.840 --> 00:37:47.199
busy has been an mo again for
that first half of life for so long

464
00:37:47.760 --> 00:37:53.480
that we're terrified of the stillness.
We're terrified and first of the boi and

465
00:37:53.519 --> 00:37:59.719
then then though if we can,
you know, find ourselves the courage to

466
00:37:59.840 --> 00:38:04.760
enter into that place, or we're
forced into it, because whatever happens,

467
00:38:05.199 --> 00:38:08.400
it's we've gotten sick. We're in
that moment of stillness. Suddenly we discover

468
00:38:08.960 --> 00:38:14.960
the things that we've done in the
past, that we did without really even

469
00:38:15.559 --> 00:38:20.920
savoring the goodness of it. Yeah, you know, the gift that somebody

470
00:38:20.960 --> 00:38:25.519
gave us, the triumph of something
that we've accomplished. Now now we can

471
00:38:25.559 --> 00:38:30.519
look at those things. I mean, he said, Wow, that was

472
00:38:30.519 --> 00:38:34.599
pretty amazing, you know, And
I had the courage to do that when

473
00:38:34.639 --> 00:38:37.199
I was thirty one years old or
whatever, and that you know, I

474
00:38:37.199 --> 00:38:43.000
didn't know it. Then my GRIBs
Almond that that would be a turning point

475
00:38:43.039 --> 00:38:45.840
for me. When I responded the
way that you know, you know.

476
00:38:45.880 --> 00:38:51.639
An example for me is I began
as I was going to write a book

477
00:38:51.719 --> 00:38:55.320
about Tom c the Great Base Picture, and I was supposed to have an

478
00:38:55.360 --> 00:39:01.559
interview with him, and I never
got it because this manager wanted to have

479
00:39:01.800 --> 00:39:07.199
I mean, not a second of
is a star's life should be taken without

480
00:39:08.239 --> 00:39:12.719
getting some money for it. And
I remember just thinking, what am I

481
00:39:12.760 --> 00:39:15.639
going to do here? I traveled
all the way from California to New York

482
00:39:15.920 --> 00:39:20.000
to meet him, and I wasn't
going to meet him. So I went

483
00:39:20.039 --> 00:39:24.199
downstairs. I had some Chinese one
tan soup, and I contemplated my future.

484
00:39:24.800 --> 00:39:30.119
And at that point the boys came
to me and said, you can't

485
00:39:30.119 --> 00:39:34.639
give up. You get go call
one of those publishers that you met at

486
00:39:34.679 --> 00:39:38.000
a writer's conference a month or two
before and see if they want to just

487
00:39:38.039 --> 00:39:40.679
talk to you, see what they
think about the idea of doing this.

488
00:39:42.239 --> 00:39:46.440
And I did that, and I
knew that regardless of the result, that

489
00:39:46.599 --> 00:39:51.199
I got up and I would go
forward, and I didn't give up.

490
00:39:51.639 --> 00:39:54.639
And I can look at that now
now my elder self can look at that

491
00:39:54.719 --> 00:40:00.360
young person and say, yeah,
yeah, so all of that debt self

492
00:40:00.400 --> 00:40:05.480
debt not necessarily liking myself so much. I'm in love with myself, my

493
00:40:05.559 --> 00:40:09.079
younger self now, my own way
I never put when I was that age

494
00:40:09.639 --> 00:40:14.280
mm hmm, and also being in
that moment right. I know this because

495
00:40:14.320 --> 00:40:17.480
I if you listen to my language, I am helping to address the literal

496
00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:22.079
walking dead who don't know what it
is to experience a show of DVV and

497
00:40:22.119 --> 00:40:24.320
they've lost the ability to be a
child and giggle at the smallest of things

498
00:40:24.360 --> 00:40:28.960
and enjoy and revel in that kind
of a moment. That's exactly a lot

499
00:40:28.960 --> 00:40:31.840
of the work that I'm doing with
leaders inside organizations because we spend so much

500
00:40:31.840 --> 00:40:35.599
time there, so I had to
talk about that, so thank you,

501
00:40:35.639 --> 00:40:38.039
Malcolm. All Right, so a
couple more questions I definitely want to get

502
00:40:38.039 --> 00:40:43.119
in before we have we run out
of time. I really fascinated. I've

503
00:40:43.159 --> 00:40:46.599
only with one other person, heard
anybody talk about this notion of dropping the

504
00:40:46.639 --> 00:40:50.840
body, and of course it was
Paul Skinner, who I love in the

505
00:40:50.960 --> 00:40:54.800
UK, very very conscious man who
taught me about meditation and to get into

506
00:40:54.840 --> 00:40:59.639
meditation. But you start talking about
this, you know in your book when

507
00:40:59.679 --> 00:41:04.840
you say swiftly or slowly, aging
is immutable becoming an elder person. An

508
00:41:04.920 --> 00:41:08.760
elder requires shifting from identifying with the
physical that is the body, and learning

509
00:41:08.760 --> 00:41:13.960
who we are beyond what we do. Each new discovery is a mini death,

510
00:41:14.079 --> 00:41:16.719
a preparation for what Ramdas calls dropping
the body, that gives us a

511
00:41:16.760 --> 00:41:25.000
foreshadowing of death that is actually incredibly
alluring to me. I love that that

512
00:41:25.039 --> 00:41:30.480
it's alluring to you. So Ramdas
referred to dying as dropping the body,

513
00:41:31.079 --> 00:41:35.039
because it was only the body that
was going to be gone. The rest,

514
00:41:35.519 --> 00:41:40.559
the essence of the person and the
residue left in this world that doesn't

515
00:41:40.639 --> 00:41:45.440
end, that doesn't die, right. The thing is is that as we

516
00:41:45.519 --> 00:41:54.800
grow older, as we become elders, we have to first and foremost shift

517
00:41:54.960 --> 00:42:00.719
our focus from the body and the
doing that the body does in order to

518
00:42:00.800 --> 00:42:07.599
embrace the gifts, the magic,
the opportunities of eldering. And we as

519
00:42:07.679 --> 00:42:13.599
women particularly you know, this can
be a really difficult thing. Where we've

520
00:42:13.679 --> 00:42:22.199
learned that how we look and what
we accomplish with our physicality is how we

521
00:42:22.280 --> 00:42:30.639
get a sense of meaning and how
other people see us as being important or

522
00:42:30.880 --> 00:42:39.480
worthy of taking up space in this
world, and so learning to actually disidentify.

523
00:42:42.199 --> 00:42:46.400
As our body changes, as our
capacities wane, we have less energy.

524
00:42:46.599 --> 00:42:51.199
Malca referred to that earlier. Now
I need a nap, You know

525
00:42:51.320 --> 00:42:53.760
I didn't. I used to be
able to work from sun up till almost

526
00:42:53.840 --> 00:42:59.400
the next sun up without thinking about
it. No way, now, you

527
00:42:59.440 --> 00:43:04.639
know. My sort of says it's
time to shut down. When I go

528
00:43:04.719 --> 00:43:08.239
downstairs to prepare dinner for my husband
and myself, I'm not coming back to

529
00:43:08.320 --> 00:43:13.719
my desk afterwards to continue working.
There was a time that I would do

530
00:43:13.840 --> 00:43:16.599
that till one, two three in
the morning. No way, right,

531
00:43:16.679 --> 00:43:23.800
So I have to come to recognize
who I am, my purpose and my

532
00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:30.480
meaning beyond what I look like,
right, how I present physically to the

533
00:43:30.519 --> 00:43:35.480
world, and what my body is
capable of accomplishing in a twenty four hour

534
00:43:35.599 --> 00:43:43.440
period of time. And each time
we come to terms with that little bit

535
00:43:43.440 --> 00:43:49.239
of loss, that's a mini death, and so we and when we recognize

536
00:43:49.280 --> 00:43:55.480
it in that way, we come
to identify more with our essence, with

537
00:43:57.239 --> 00:44:00.280
the meaning of the life that we've
lived, with the purpose that we have

538
00:44:00.519 --> 00:44:07.000
spread out in the world, with
the legacy that we are leaving, and

539
00:44:07.039 --> 00:44:13.599
we can actually embrace the joy the
delight, the magic, the opportunity,

540
00:44:14.639 --> 00:44:20.760
and the wisdom of elderhood. I
could have this conversation four days, but

541
00:44:21.159 --> 00:44:22.800
I think we have time for one
more question, and I want to bring

542
00:44:22.880 --> 00:44:25.960
that to the notion of guilt and
regret. That's so important, So many

543
00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:30.239
people carry that, and you do
this so beautifully in your book. So

544
00:44:30.920 --> 00:44:34.079
you say, we learn to distinguish
between guilt and regret for what we have

545
00:44:34.239 --> 00:44:38.000
done self. Forgiveness allows us to
know that everything in our lives had to

546
00:44:38.039 --> 00:44:40.880
evolve the way it did so that
we could learn what we needed to know

547
00:44:42.280 --> 00:44:46.480
to become complete human beings. This
is an active humility that enable ennobles and

548
00:44:46.559 --> 00:44:52.679
expands consciousness that we have pain in
remembering our behavior in a past incident,

549
00:44:52.719 --> 00:44:55.719
demonstrations that we have learned from it
and would not in our present consciousness do

550
00:44:55.800 --> 00:45:00.960
it again. In this we can
rejoice and we can also forgive ourselves.

551
00:45:00.719 --> 00:45:06.960
That's incredibly powerful. Well. Yes, one of the things about Rebzalman's of

552
00:45:07.719 --> 00:45:15.800
the last words in the December Project
is I noticed how many times the word

553
00:45:15.880 --> 00:45:22.880
forgiveness, forgiving, forgive came up. That that that the way to have

554
00:45:22.639 --> 00:45:27.880
to feel a complete life is to
come to that place of forgiveness, and

555
00:45:27.960 --> 00:45:31.199
it has to begin with oneself.
So there's a there's a poem called The

556
00:45:31.320 --> 00:45:36.440
Art of Losing by Elizabeth Vision.
I couldn't tell you that I think in

557
00:45:36.480 --> 00:45:40.719
a lot of ways that one of
the ways we've become sages is by recognizing

558
00:45:42.360 --> 00:45:45.440
that as the what do we lose, we lose our egos. What do

559
00:45:45.480 --> 00:45:51.239
we gain? We gain our souls. And the only way we can do

560
00:45:51.280 --> 00:45:55.119
this is by the admission of what
we have done in this life and to

561
00:45:55.159 --> 00:46:00.159
be able to forgive ourselves and what
we've done, and in doing that we

562
00:46:00.159 --> 00:46:05.679
we do we enter into a certain
nobility that will take us to a place

563
00:46:05.679 --> 00:46:09.599
of ultimate completion. But the it's
true that in many ways I mean I

564
00:46:09.639 --> 00:46:14.960
to find myself saying to my friends, to anybody who might who's willing to

565
00:46:14.960 --> 00:46:17.119
listen to me, you know,
look, you know how arrogant are you

566
00:46:17.199 --> 00:46:22.239
going to be? Like? You
should be better than everybody else? That

567
00:46:22.239 --> 00:46:25.559
that there is an assumption that that
that the only way for us to do

568
00:46:25.599 --> 00:46:30.159
this life is for us not to
make mistakes, not to have done the

569
00:46:30.239 --> 00:46:34.199
wrong thing, and that to ultimately
come to the admission of these things,

570
00:46:34.639 --> 00:46:37.760
and then to come to the forgiven, forgiving ourselves and maybe having to do

571
00:46:37.880 --> 00:46:45.000
something to reach that forgiveness by making
some amends, doing some reparation, whatever

572
00:46:45.039 --> 00:46:50.079
it should be. I mean that
is ultimately that I would hope that everybody

573
00:46:50.360 --> 00:46:53.000
who might be listening and watching this
will come to a place of saying,

574
00:46:53.400 --> 00:47:00.239
Wow, I might actually free myself
from the prison of my to always be

575
00:47:00.360 --> 00:47:05.679
right. That's a big thing,
and I think that's one of the gifts

576
00:47:05.679 --> 00:47:09.519
that we can get as we become
elders and recognizing that nobody needs us to

577
00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:15.039
be right. What they need is
to be loved, and they need to

578
00:47:15.079 --> 00:47:17.480
be loved by us. And that's
one of the things that we can learn

579
00:47:17.559 --> 00:47:23.599
to do as we come into better
relationship with ourselves by heavy doses of self

580
00:47:23.639 --> 00:47:29.239
forgiven. Thank you for that,
Rabbi Trucker. That was just delicious.

581
00:47:29.280 --> 00:47:30.719
So we've come to the end of
the show and I want to give you

582
00:47:30.719 --> 00:47:35.039
both just a chance to maybe in
like fifteen seconds, just what would you

583
00:47:35.079 --> 00:47:37.920
each like to leave our listeners with
it. We have listeners across the globe.

584
00:47:37.239 --> 00:47:42.599
What would you like to leave them
with welcould you go first? Okay,

585
00:47:42.679 --> 00:47:50.079
now you buy our book that's about
by two coms. Seriously, you

586
00:47:50.119 --> 00:47:52.639
could read a thousand books on this
subject. You can read all of the

587
00:47:52.760 --> 00:47:55.840
Lisa's books, you can read all
of our books, and you will not

588
00:47:57.000 --> 00:48:00.480
get home until you sit down with
somebody else. Yes, and you actually

589
00:48:00.599 --> 00:48:05.920
talk it through and do the work
together. Yeah. So that's that's what

590
00:48:05.920 --> 00:48:10.880
I'd like to say, Thank you, Rabbi. Yes, And just as

591
00:48:12.199 --> 00:48:16.639
Malka and I have become saging buddies
to one another, that is the single

592
00:48:16.760 --> 00:48:22.840
most important thing as we grow into
elderhood, as we have to confront our

593
00:48:22.880 --> 00:48:24.880
mortality, as we have to deal
with those mini deaths. You know,

594
00:48:24.920 --> 00:48:30.159
I had to let my thirty one
year old body die and acknowledge my sixty

595
00:48:30.199 --> 00:48:34.760
six year old body and love it
just as much as I had loved the

596
00:48:34.840 --> 00:48:39.000
younger one. We need somebody to
witness us, to hold us, to

597
00:48:39.159 --> 00:48:45.920
love us unconditionally into our elderhood,
and to help us tease out the pearls

598
00:48:45.920 --> 00:48:52.159
of wisdom from this long life experience
that we are living together. So find

599
00:48:52.199 --> 00:48:57.480
your saging buddy. Oh, thank
you, Rabbi Nadya. What a beautiful

600
00:48:57.480 --> 00:49:00.719
way to finish. Thank you both, What an honor and just filled my

601
00:49:00.840 --> 00:49:02.599
heart and soul to be reconnected with
you and to read your book. So

602
00:49:04.239 --> 00:49:07.000
very grateful to be on the journey
with you, listeners and viewers. If

603
00:49:07.039 --> 00:49:10.599
you want to learn more about these
amazing women, you can find Rabbi Malka

604
00:49:10.639 --> 00:49:17.440
Drucker at Maka Drucker dot com.
You can find Rabbi Nadja Gross at Jurusha

605
00:49:17.519 --> 00:49:23.400
dot org. That's y e r
Usha dot org. And thanks to our

606
00:49:23.440 --> 00:49:29.000
partner sponsoring again work Proud, which
helps companies build a platform wherehere your workforce

607
00:49:29.039 --> 00:49:31.519
receives meaningful feedback and thanks for the
work from their people from across the company.

608
00:49:32.159 --> 00:49:35.159
Last week, if you missed them
live show, we can always catch

609
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it we via recorded podcast. We
were on the air with Jeff Tuff and

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Steven Goldbach talking about their book Provoke, How Leaders shape the future by overcoming

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fatal human flaws. It's a fascinating
conversation about the limiting mindsets and cognitive bias

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we humans must learn to intervene to
be our best. Next week, we'll

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00:49:52.760 --> 00:49:57.360
be on the air with Uni to
arn Teeny from Norway talking about her work

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understanding the criticality of loneliness in today's
time and how it impedes our well being.

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See you there, or that works
at least, or their alive.

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So let's work on Purpose. We
hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be

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sure to tune in too, Working
on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise

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00:50:16.519 --> 00:50:22.079
Cortes, each week on the Voice
America Empowerment Channel. Together, we'll create

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a world where business operates conscientiously.
Leadership inspires impassioned performance, and employees are

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fulfilled in work that provides the meaning
and purpose they crave. See you there,

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Let's work on Purpose.