Fear: Redefining it from Debilitating to Transformative

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What's working on purpose anyway? Each
week we ponder the answer to this question.

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People ache for meaning and purpose at
work, to contribute their talents passionately

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and know their lives really matter.
They crave being part of an organization that

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inspires them and helps them grow into
realizing their highest potential business can be such

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a force for good in the world, elevating humanity. In our program,

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we provide guidance and inspiration to help
usher in this world we all want working

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on purpose. Now Here is your
host, doctor Elise Cortes. Welcome back

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to the Working and Purpose Program.
Thanks for tuning it again this week.

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Great to have you. I'm your
host, Doctor Relie's Cortez. Join you

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live from Dallas, which is home
base for me. If you don't know

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me yet, I'm a management consultant
specializing and meaning and purpose organizational lag with

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therapist, instiracial speaker of social scientist
and author. My team and I help

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organizations discover and articulate their purpose to
throw it through their care and operations.

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We work with forward thinking or forward
reaching organizations to develop inspirational leaders who create

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cultures where people actually want to come
to work and do their best and we

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create programs like the Grab Your Gusto
that enable individual team members to discover and

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at least their passion and purpose at
work to catalyze fulfillment, engagement, and

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productivity. You can learn more about
us how we work together at Alice Coortes

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dot com. With us today is
Garov Botanagar. Batanagar, the founder of

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co Creation Partners, which works co
creatively with organizations to deliver performance and culture

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transformations and enhance leadership development. He's
the co author of Unfear Transform Your Organization

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to create breakthrough performance and employee well
Being, which will be discussing today on

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the program. Joined us today from
Stanford, Connecticut. Garrov, Welcome to

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Working on Purpose. Thank you.
I'm so excited to be key to you.

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I am too, Goov. I
really enjoy so much my role of

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hosting the show. I once had
somebody tell me that I'm a radio show

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host with a reading problem, and
it's true, right, And so I

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get to read these amazing books from
people like you who make my world better.

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So you, what you've written about, Gorav is so so important,

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and I know it from the work
that I do with organizations. To this

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this notion of fear, So let's
jump right into that. For it seems

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like such an easy word, it's
four letters, but it's very powerful.

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So for from your manage point,
what is fear and why and how does

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it serve humans? That's a great
question. So what is fear? Fear

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is an emotion the two experience when
you are either anticipating or facing an unpleasant

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event, person, or situation.
M m mm hmm. And and it's

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an emotion that is tremendously helpful for
our physical survival. I mean, if

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he did not have fear, as
is a core emotion, chances are we

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could you know, be as human
beings are probably the most ill equipped of

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all animals to survive in on this
planet. But fear allows us to understand

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what are the situations in when we
are in danger of physical threat, to

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protect ourselves and not do things which
would get us into trouble. So that's

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the benefit of fear right right.
Well, then, since you and I

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both work inside companies to help leaders
in organizations, why is fear such a

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problem in organizations? That's a great
question. So, so here's the thing

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you know, unlike unlike in in
our everyday life or or when we were

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living in prehistoric times when they were
sabre tooth cats trying to kill us.

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Most of the time, we are
not getting killed in organizations, but we

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behave like we are and unfortunately,
the brain cannot differentiate a physical thread from

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emotional threat. And what happens is
when we are under emotional thread, the

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thing that we are trying to protect
is our ego, and in order to

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protect our ego, we end up
behaving in exactly those same patterns that we

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use when we are in physical thread. We either fight, we flight,

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or we freeze right, and that
leads to dysfunctional responses, and that leads

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to dysfunctional reactions from the other side
as well. So something which is fundamental

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to our physical survival, when used
in an emotional situation which is not impacting

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your physical survival, leads to dysfunction. In fact, I would go to

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the point of saying that fear is
the single biggest source of waste in organizations.

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You said that in the book.
Yeah, yeah, go ahead,

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it's no, it's it's so.
And when you say it that way,

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grow up. Think about how listeners
and viewers think about this. If is

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the single biggest ways in organizations shouldn't
you do something about that? Right?

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And so, what I think is
so important about the work that you've done

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is is not saying that we must
deny it, because I know that you

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also say, well in your book
about there's a lot of we want to

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actually kind of erase it out and
pretend that it doesn't exist. And I

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really appreciate or of that you and
your co author Mark say that it's not

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about removing fear or denying it.
Rather, the solution is to transform our

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relationship with fear. And you say, fear and of itself is just an

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emotion which is neither good nor bad. It's about our relationship to fear.

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Can you see more about transforming our
relationship to it? Yeah? Absolutely,

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I mean, so fear is fundamentally
you know, is so let's talk about

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the relations So fear is just an
emotions and acient. It's neither good or

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bad. It's just queuing for you
that has a situation where there's some anxiety

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that is happening to you. Now
here's the interesting thing. Our relationship to

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fear is about the story we create
around it. Yes, right, And

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the single biggest superpower, the power
that we have as human beings is our

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power of imagination, and you can
imagine it to create all kinds of bad

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things for us, or you can
imagine it to be an opportunity for learning

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in growth. When you imagine it
to be all kinds of bad things,

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you collapse into it and you make
the fear bigger than who you are.

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But when you see it as an
opportunity for learning in growth, you get

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curious about it and you ask the
question, what is it there to learn?

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When a manager is screaming at me? What is there to learn in

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terms of how I need to respond
to that situation? So it leads to

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a better outcome versus saying, oh
my god, my life is terrible.

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I have this huge, useless manager
and I'll always be in this miserable situation.

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Right, So there's a fundamental reframing
that we can do. But as

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Spider Man's uncle said, with great
power comes great responsibility, right. And

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unfortunately, our superpower of imagination is
not like you know, you'll always use

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it for good, right, So
we often end up using it in suboptimal

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and dysfunctional ways. So true,
that's the switch of the relationship. Mm

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hmmmm hmmm. Oh, this is
so good and so yummy. Right,

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So I want to give this to
our listeners and viewers the way that you

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reun it in the book, because
your writing is exquisite. It's very clear,

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and it's very crisp, and it's
compelling you. But you say that

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the unfear process of reframing will free
you from your reactive patterns to fear and

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allow you to be to be in
mastery rather than having fear control you,

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which is what you just said.
But you further go on you say it

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will enable a state of being in
which you welcome fear as an opportunity to

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learn, a state that unlocks sustained
performance as an individual, a team,

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and an organization. So what I
of course I'm a sucker for learning that.

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It's not my number three strength for
the galop. Right. That's part

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of the reason I host this show, A big reason I host this show.

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So I really appreciate or of how
you've let us into and invite us

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into the space to really, in
many ways, embrace fear as a way

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to learn. And I think that's
profoundly important and really foundationally radical for our

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listeners and viewers. Yeah, and
in fact, one of the first things

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we do in organizations when we go
in is we actually draw a circle on

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a flip chart and we talk about
the comfort zone. And you know,

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most people say comfort zone is a
good thing, and we say, yeah,

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great, but there's also you know, if you stay too long,

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it leads to feeling completely stagnated.
And then we ask the question what happens

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when you get pushed out of the
comfort zone, and the first reaction is

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fear of failure, anxiety, stress, And then someone says learning and growth,

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it's not And then we say,
hey, by the way, your

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learning zone lives outside your comfort zone. And the thing that separates the learning

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zone and the comfort zone is fear. And you have to go through fear

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to engage in significant learning in your
life. So fear is always a cue

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for learning and growth when it's emotional
in nature. And it's a transformative idea

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because now you're fundamentally seeing fear as
a place where you go and look for

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where your learning edge is and where
your growth edges. Mm hm, oh,

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I have to go here, go
off. So, since I also

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work in the space of transformation,
one of the things that I've grappled with

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over time is how can I introduce
in my workshops the work that I do

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organizations, you know, introduce the
discomfort. You know what happens when you

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go through divorce process and your world
is upside down, you get fired from

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a really great important job. You
know, all of these things that happen

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to us that help us be able
to really transform to another level. And

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I've always wondered, how can I
inject that into my workshops to be able

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to provide that necessary element of fear
and discomfort? How do you do it?

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So, so there's a couple of
thoughts to that, right, So

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there's two ways I often do it. The first question I ask people to

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think about is I think about is
challenging their life that they've experienced from which

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they have learned right, And often
it is one of those deeply uncomfortable ones

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like they were also whatever whatever.
And I asked them to say, how

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do you feel about it today?
Are you better because of that? And

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think about how did you feel when
you were going through it? Right?

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And often we don't think about it, but actually the process of going through

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it was deeply uncomfortable, and yet
that is what made us much more effective

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in showing up today. So that's
one way, Okay, go ahead the

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other one the other way. The
other way is very simple. I shared

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with them it deeply, profoundly sad, but powerful shift in my life,

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which was the passing of my father, and how that led to my own

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transformation in terms of how I understood
relationships because I'm the younger of two children,

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and I always thought I was going
to be the baby of the family

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in relationship to my parents, and
my father was unfortunately passed away within five

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minutes, and all of a sudden, my mother became my child. Wow.

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It's a profound experience around understanding that
relationships are not fixed. And even

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though there was fear and sadness in
that moment, it was the most transformational

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moment. And that's the way of
helping people understand that in their fear and

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in their sorrow, there's actually a
huge seed learning in growth and actually profound

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shifts if you choose to see them. You quote Victor Frankel in your book,

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I am an organizational logo therapist.
I schooled in that whole area,

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and yes, that is our opportunity. And you say in your book,

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Beautifully, we have always the choice
in how we choose to respond, and

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yet we humans need that tension,
and so it's interesting, there's such an

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interesting balance in the worthy do we
do need that tension? We need that

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to grow and we learn, but
too much of it is actually debilitating.

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So now what I want to get
into next, Goora is there's listeners and

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viewers that are probably thinking of themselves. You know, sometimes fear is good,

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you know, and it is to
a certain extent. But how do

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you know, go how we recognize
How would listeners and viewers recognize the extent

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to which fear is present in their
organizations? What does it look like?

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So the way you recognize fear in
your organization is not by trying to measure

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fear, but to try and measure
the behaviors that are showing up, right,

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because that's the tangible manifestation of fear. And you know that fear is

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in your organization if you see one
of two patterns, and then there are

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subdivisions of those patterns. The first
pattern is what we call the aggressive defensive

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pattern of the fight pattern, which
is all about people showing up in the

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organization from a point of view of
wanting to prove themselves in order to survive

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done from a place of achieving.
It is done from a place of trying

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to prove yourself right. Prove yourself
by pointing out mistakes other people do,

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prove yourself by controlling everything your subordinates
to prove yourself by always competing with other

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people and trying to be always better. My brother is a great example of

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that. And the last one is
be so super perfectionistic that you do everything

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two hundred percent right, not because
it's effective, but because that's the way

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you prove yourself. Now, the
other pattern that shows up in organizations where

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you hide into the background and you
hope that by hiding, nothing bad will

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happen to you, right, And
that's often done by avoiding making tough decisions,

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just doing what your boss tells you
to do and not ever questioning it,

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following the rules to the tea,
or just being nice to people and

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never when you know, never saying
anything that would rock the board, because

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you want to be part of the
many, right. So fundamentally, the

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way fear shows up is a combination
of these aggressive, defensive, impact,

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defensive, fight in flight patterns that
mutually reinforce themselves and often in organization.

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What you see is that the people
who have the fight patterns are saying that

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the reason why we behave this way
is because those guys are not doing what

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they're supposed to do, And the
guys who are in the flight pattern are

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saying, the reason we don't do
anything is because the guys that are always

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screaming at us, and the more
we'll try and do things, they'll scream

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at us. So it becomes a
mutually reinforcing dysfunctional patterns. So those are

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the behaviors you're looking for. That
tells you whether there's fear in the organization

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or not. Now let's turn the
coin over then, GOREV. What does

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an unfear organization look like? Great, So, first of all, I

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don't think unfear organization is a destination. It's a way of being and it's

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not like you stay in that state
forever. You keep going, you know,

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you keep moving and keep moving and
keep testing you. But an unfear

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organization tends to display favor patterns.
Again, we call these the vice thinking

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or constructive patterns. The first one
is around you know, having a seeker

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mentality, which is about organizations where
people are in a learning mode all the

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time. They're curious, they're testing
the boundaries. They're taking risks which are

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within browns, but they're are risk
taking. The second day is there's a

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lot of coaching going on. The
focus is not on proving what someone is

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doing wrong. The focus is on
how do I help other people develop?

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The third one is there's a lot
of trust building going on in the organization.

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The importance of the team is greater
than the importance of the individual.

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And the last one is that there's
a lot of achievement going on, but

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not from a place of desperation,
but from a place of thoughtful stretch goals

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and planning that allows you to show
up in really effective ways and allows you

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to tell people along in a way
that they feel that they want to participate

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versus they feel they're scared and therefore
they have to participate. M HM,

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beautiful groov So, listeners and viewers, We're going to go onto our first

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break, and I want you to
think about which of the two organizations would

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you rather be in the more of
the fear organization or the unfear organization.

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If you're a leader, which one
do you want to stewart? So I'm

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your host, doctor Release Cortez.
We're on the air with Botnager. He's

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the co author of On Fear,
Transforming Organization to create breakthrough performance and employee

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well being. We've been talking a
bit about what is fear and how the

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sho open organizations. After the break, we're going to hear more about the

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book and its contents and also the
eight archetypes of fear and organization's fascinating stuff.

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Stay with us, We'll be right
back. Doctor release Cortes as a

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management consultant specializing in meaning and purpose
and inspirational speaker and author. She helps

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companies visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders
and develop purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused

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00:16:57.720 --> 00:17:03.960
cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance,
and commitment within the workforce. To learn

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00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:08.200
more or to invite Elise to speak
to your organization, please visit her at

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00:17:08.200 --> 00:17:14.279
elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about
how to get your employees working on purpose.

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00:17:21.480 --> 00:17:25.799
This is working on Purpose with doctor
Elise Cortes. To reach our program

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00:17:25.839 --> 00:17:32.160
today or open a conversation with Alise, send an email to Alise Alise at

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00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:40.079
elisecortes dot com. Now back to
working on Purpose. Thanks for stating with

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us and welcome back to the program. Before we get back to the conversation,

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I want to invite you to check
out my first book that came out

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in twenty twenty twenty. It's called
Purpose Ignited, How Inspiring Leaders Ignite Passion

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and Elbak cause I wrote that book
to awaken the readers to their passion and

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their purpose and transform them into inspirational
leaders that can actually store their people to

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their greater heights. And I use
the content as a base for my Violin

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00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:03.519
Inspired program and the Grandgugusta. So
I hope you check it out for joining

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me today. My guest is Gorov
Botnagar. He is the founder of co

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Creation Partners, which works co creatively
with organizations to deliver performance and culture transformations

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and enhance leadership development. He's the
co author of Unfear Transform Your Organization to

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create break through performance and employee well
being. I'm your host, doctor Real

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Least Cortesse. So one of the
things that you also talk about, which

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is just really fascinating. What I
find really compelling, Gorov, is that

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we as human beings are these amazing
creatures. Right. We can create skyscrapers,

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we can go to the moon and
back. But at the end of

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the day, we are still constructed
of this really prehistoric way of being.

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It's fascinating. We have to be
able to navigate that. So one of

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the things that you write about,
and I've seen it also firsthand many times

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at organizations, is that fear is
contagious. You say, once fear becomes

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a mood or a habit for one
person in an organization, that mindset can

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quickly spread. This is because humans, as deeply social beings, mirror the

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emotions and behaviors of the people around
them. Yes, yes, and so

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yes, say more about that.
Yeah, so you know. Here's here's

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the interesting idea. Organizations don't transform
individuals do right, right, and not

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just organizations, but systems don't transform
individuals do and And what happens is because

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we learn from each other, because
we are, you know, social beings.

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We learn by by what other people's
experiences, and we learn by how

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other people verbalize that experience, you
know. And so for example, if

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if there's a system where there's constant
talk about fear and constant talk about how

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someone is by doing bad things to
us, we then startstracizing that person because

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that person is now dangerous to us. And the way we learn is through

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repetition. So the more we hear
it again and again and again, the

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more it becomes part of us.
So if there's one individual who is tremendously

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influential, he usually repeats the same
thing again and again. It starts infecting

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everyone else. That's how movements are
on. That's what politics in America is

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today, right. Unfortunately, it's
all about one side and the other side

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having their own fear narrative. They
keep repeating and then everyone just joins in,

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and then we start creating separation.
And every time there's an election,

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we spend one billion dollars more than
the last one, and all it does

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is leads to fragmentation. And that's
the social nature in which how this thing

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all works. Yes, and I
want to take a one step for the

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go off, So listeners and viewers
just put yourself in this scenario. You've

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been here a million times, I
promise. You walk into a meeting and

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the first thing you start to realize
just as you walk in, first that

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you can sense there's a tension hanging
in the air. Then you start to

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notice the body language. This is
all happening unconsciously by the way, you

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start to notice the body language.
People are stiff, and when people are

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speaking it's short, staccato kind of
words or phrases, and so they're holding

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themselves, they're protecting themselves. And
then you start to notice that job over

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there, who always has an opinion, is not speaking up because he's scared.

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He knows he's going to be shut
down. So when you start to

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recognize how this really does sweep,
how contagious this really is. Now think

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about how this shuts down innovation engagement
performance. I mean, this is real

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and there's so that's such an opportunity
to be able to address this as you're

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as you're helping organizations do go up. Your work is so critically important.

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Yeah, and at least if I
don't know if you've read the book Primary

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Leadership, but they say that,
you know they've done this experiment again and

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again. They bring three people off
the street inside the room. They ask

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them to sit there for two minutes
without saying anything, and before they get

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in they have to answer all kinds
of things, including what emotion are you're

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feeling and how strongly you're feeling it, And in seventy percent of the situations

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in those two minutes, the person
who's feeling an emotion the most affects the

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other two people with that emotion without
saying a single thing. The good news

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is that the easiest emotion to infect
someone with this joy. The bad news

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is the next two of anger and
fear. Right, and just by the

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state in which we are, the
mood we are in, we infect other

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people, especially when we are in
positions of power and an influence within the

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system. Oh, this is so
important. No, I don't know that

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book, but now it means that
I have to go out and find the

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author and invite them on. So
thank you for that. So let's bring

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our listeners and viewers back who are
like somedding is starting to feel you know,

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upset, intense or what we're discussing. Let's bring them back into an

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opportunity zone. Okay, So what
you say in the book is the more

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you are aware of and interrupt your
habitual responses to fear, the weaker the

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neurologic pathways will become. The less
time you'll spend in a mood of fear.

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That's an opportunity that's encouraging. Yeah, and so again, as I

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said, reality is what you repeat
to yourself again and again again. So

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if you repeat something different, which
is if you have an imagination, you

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repeat something different, it's like it's
like a path that is created in a

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meadow. If you keep walking on
the same path, it creates a path.

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If you stop walking that path,
then the path disappears, and if

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you start walking a new path,
it starts creating. So be very aware

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of what you're saying to yourself,
because what you say to yourself becomes your

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reality. Be very aware of the
people you are with because the people you

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are aware what they're saying to you
becomes your reality, which is why Also

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be very aware of the social media
you consume and the things you type,

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because you are you are in an
echo chamber, and that echo chamber starts

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creating your reality. But if you
want to shift that echo chamber, it's

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very easy to do because you just
need to find a new place and you

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can shift. And the question you
have to ask yourself, this is the

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most important people think about life in
good, bad, right, wrong.

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The only question you know to ask
yourself is am I being effective in this

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situation? And go find what prepartition
you need to do in order to be

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effective. It's irrelevant whether you're right
or wrong, because people can be one

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hundred percent wrong and zero percent effective. And that's the worst thing in an

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organization that can happen, because people
get super self righteous and they make everyone

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else wrong and then they end up
feeling isolated themselves. Well, and again,

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I like what you talk about is
that you know, we're not constrained

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by our biology. We have these
amazing superpowers of language and imagination, and

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we can intervene in this stuff.
And we as individuals can intervene in this

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stuff as well as leaders can.
And I think, what, of course

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the work that I do, I
stand to empower individuals and organizations, right,

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So to me, that's that beautiful
space that you open for us to

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be able to help us understand what's
going on for us. But how can

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we actually intervene to be able to
create a world in organization where we actually

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want to live and work? Sure, And to me, the most important

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mindset shift, which I talk about
in chapter five, is this idea that

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we are not dysfunctional beings that need
to be fixed. We are beings with

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infinite potential that need to remove the
unnecessary stories that we have in our head

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to actually live into our potential,
and that we are actually amazing the way

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we are rather than we are messed
up. I of course applod that all

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to its very last molecule. Of
course. Now, one of the other

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things that you guys do you and
Mark, that I find really really compelling

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and really appreciate, certainly as a
social scientist, is that you've identified these

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eight fear archetypes that are found in
organizations. And I find that it's extremely

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accessible grow up because it's one thing
to talk about fear, but it's quite

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another to characterize it the way that
you did. So I think it would

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be extremely useful for our listeners and
viewers if you could sort of high level

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talk about each one of them.
Sure, so the first archetype we talk

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about is the fault finder archetype.
So then this is very interesting. I'm

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sure people can recognize it. Do
you know people in your life, when

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you're doing a presentation, instead of
them focusing on the content, they say,

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oh, on that line, you've
got the font rum, that's your

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classic fault finder. They are constantly
looking for what is wrong, and in

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organizations when that happens, then you
have many people who tell you why you

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can't do it, and very few
people who support you in making something happen.

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So everything is about no versus enablement. Right. So that is the

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first one, okay. The second
one is called the controllers. The controllers

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are all about making sure that everything
is two hundred percent predictable. Right.

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I will try and control everything.
I'll micromanage everything because some I have this

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whole set and that if I micro
manage everything, things will be okay.

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And that's why I think the one
blessing of COVID is it is blown the

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myth of control from our lives.
Because we can try and control everything,

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we have literally very little control,
so it actually destroys the flexibility and adaptability

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of organizations. The third one is
called competitors. And competitors are your classic

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You all know them, right,
I mean you might be one of them.

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I am definitely, definitely have this
tendency of I prove my value by

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beating everyone else, right, And
this is the core of why silos are

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there in organizations. Because I need
my team to win and I want the

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other team to not be as good
as I am, or if something goes

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wrong, it's because of finance,
not because of sales. Right, So

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competitors are all about we are better
and we are fine and everyone else is

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not fine. Right, And so
that's the competitor. And the fourth one

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is a perfectionist, which is,
I'm not going to share with you anything

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until it's three hundred percent right.
And it doesn't matter if I am not

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contributing to the bigger picture of what
needs to happen in the organization. I

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Am not going to make a single
mistake. And when we do that,

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we actually lose the bigger picture.
Now, none of these poor archetypes people

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are behaving like this because they want
to be bad people. Right, they

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do it with good intention, but
when it's done excessively, it actually leads

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to dysfunctional outcomes. And unconsciously right
and unconsciously yes, absolutely absolutely so.

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On the other side, we have
the avoids. The avoids they avoid difficult

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decision, they avoid difficult conversation,
they avoid they just basically will not engage

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in anything that is likely to end
up blowing up in their face. Now,

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00:29:08.759 --> 00:29:14.279
unfortunately, in an organization where there
are a lot of avoids, very

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00:29:14.359 --> 00:29:19.920
little happens. Yes, and in
our experience at least at least the avoider

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archetype is probably the most dysfunctional archetype
that can exist in an organization because it

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paralyzes the organization. Yeah, so
that's the next one. The next one

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is called the minions. Now that's
a bit of a pejorative term, but

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00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:40.440
we wanted it to evocate a certain
response. But the minions are people who

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say, the only customer I really
have is my boss. Yeah, right,

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even though we talk about customers,
but really, my only customer is

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my boss, and all I do
is please my boss because that's how I'll

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protect myself. And that leads to
again dysfunction because now you're challenging things.

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You know things need to be done
differently, but you just do it because

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your boss asks for it. Another
version of that type is the sticklers.

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The minions look at the boss.
The sticklers look at the rule book.

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You know, they'll throw the rule
book at you. Anytime you try and

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00:30:15.880 --> 00:30:18.000
come up with a new idea.
They say, no, least, that's

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00:30:18.039 --> 00:30:22.920
not possible. The rule book says
that you have to do it this way

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00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:27.119
right, right, And at some
level it creates consistency, but in another

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00:30:27.200 --> 00:30:33.480
level it doesn't allow for innovation and
creativity to help. And finally, the

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00:30:33.519 --> 00:30:38.720
last group is the likables, right, which is which? Which is also

404
00:30:38.759 --> 00:30:42.920
I call the nice idea, which
is nothing in me cares enough to tell

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00:30:42.960 --> 00:30:48.880
you the truth. So superficially everything
is nice. You know, we are

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00:30:48.920 --> 00:30:52.319
polite, but there is so much
which is under the water, which is

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00:30:52.359 --> 00:30:56.640
simmering and can explode any time,
but no one is actually having a conversation

408
00:30:56.759 --> 00:31:00.319
around it. So those are your
eight architects. Fascinating Gorov, I really

409
00:31:00.400 --> 00:31:04.319
hats off as a researcher and somebody
who really tries to understand organizations. I

410
00:31:04.359 --> 00:31:07.880
think what you've done with those archetypes, if you've really created a compelling space

411
00:31:07.960 --> 00:31:11.519
for our listeners and viewers to be
able to start to recognize which one of

412
00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:15.240
those do you tend to fall into? So as we go into our next

413
00:31:15.240 --> 00:31:18.200
break here, if you would listeners
and viewers consider which one of those do

414
00:31:18.279 --> 00:31:22.359
you think you fall into, you
can identify your your general tendency and what

415
00:31:22.440 --> 00:31:25.759
do you see in your organization.
So on that note, let's grab our

416
00:31:26.119 --> 00:31:29.319
next break. I'm your host,
doctor Release Cortes. We're in the year

417
00:31:29.319 --> 00:31:33.480
with Gorov Botnagger, who is the
co author of Unfear, Transforming organization to

418
00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:37.119
create breakthrough performance and employee well being. We've been talking a bit about the

419
00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:38.839
archetypes. After the break, we're
going to talk more about how can use

420
00:31:38.839 --> 00:31:42.200
this information to be able to unfear
your organization. Stay with us, we'll

421
00:31:42.200 --> 00:31:48.480
be right back. Doctor release Cortez
is a management consultant specializing in meaning and

422
00:31:48.519 --> 00:31:53.160
purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies visioneer for greater purpose

423
00:31:53.160 --> 00:32:00.240
among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired leadership
and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment,

424
00:32:00.519 --> 00:32:06.839
performance, and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite Elise

425
00:32:06.880 --> 00:32:10.720
to speak to your organization, please
visit her at elisecortes dot com. Let's

426
00:32:10.759 --> 00:32:22.799
talk about how to get your employees
working on purpose. This is working on

427
00:32:22.839 --> 00:32:27.759
Purpose with doctor Elise Cortes. To
reach our program today or open a conversation

428
00:32:27.799 --> 00:32:34.559
with Alise, send an email to
a lease Alise at eleascortes dot com.

429
00:32:34.960 --> 00:32:40.079
Now back to working on Purpose.
Thanks for staying with us, and welcome

430
00:32:40.119 --> 00:32:43.160
back to working on Purpose. One
of the bit of news I want to

431
00:32:43.160 --> 00:32:45.160
share with you before we go back
to the program is last August of twenty

432
00:32:45.160 --> 00:32:50.279
one, I released a second book, and I'm actually almost more proud of

433
00:32:50.279 --> 00:32:53.000
this book than i am my first
one. So it's called Passionately Striving and

434
00:32:53.039 --> 00:32:57.880
Why. It's an anthology of women
who persevermndly to live their purpose. And

435
00:32:57.920 --> 00:33:00.400
what I did was I literally scoured
the play in it and found twenty five

436
00:33:00.440 --> 00:33:06.200
women from across the world, from
Australia to Zambia who share their very intimate

437
00:33:06.240 --> 00:33:07.920
stories of how they've discovered their purpose
are now serving from it. And the

438
00:33:07.960 --> 00:33:10.480
idea is that it's a way for
you to be able to access your own

439
00:33:10.519 --> 00:33:14.960
purpose and be inspired to pursue it
yourself. So ipe you pick it up.

440
00:33:14.960 --> 00:33:16.680
It's on on Amazon as well.
You're just joining us today. My

441
00:33:16.720 --> 00:33:21.279
guest is Group Botneggar. He is
the co founder of co Creation Partners,

442
00:33:21.480 --> 00:33:27.440
which works co creatively with organizations to
deliver performance and culture transformations and enhance leadership

443
00:33:27.480 --> 00:33:30.559
development. He's the co author of
On Fear Transform, a organization to create

444
00:33:30.599 --> 00:33:35.039
break the performance and employee well being. I'm your host Doc Jordie's Cortes,

445
00:33:35.680 --> 00:33:38.240
So we left the last bit of
conversation there really kind of a cliffhanger of

446
00:33:38.400 --> 00:33:42.400
you know what are the eight archetypes
of fear and organizations. Now let's talk

447
00:33:42.400 --> 00:33:45.960
about the other side again of that
important coin, and that is if you

448
00:33:45.960 --> 00:33:50.960
would grow up do something similar by
sharing the four unfear archetypes. Surely we

449
00:33:51.000 --> 00:33:55.000
have before before I do that.
I am super excited to hear about your

450
00:33:55.000 --> 00:33:59.359
books. So I'm going to be
immeasurately after this going by your books.

451
00:33:59.680 --> 00:34:07.200
Oh it's super interesting. I really
excited than Yeah. Which then, and

452
00:34:07.240 --> 00:34:08.039
by the way, go up,
Just so you know, I am out

453
00:34:08.079 --> 00:34:13.199
now scouting for men for the Men's
Anthology collection. So if you or anybody

454
00:34:13.199 --> 00:34:15.079
you know who want to be part
of that book, let me know.

455
00:34:15.159 --> 00:34:17.760
So that's my next thing. I
would love to That would be a real

456
00:34:17.800 --> 00:34:22.400
honor. Okay, you're welcome.
Yeah, So on the on the on

457
00:34:22.480 --> 00:34:28.719
the other side, the unfair archetypes. The first one is the seeker archetype.

458
00:34:29.639 --> 00:34:34.599
And this is the archetype, which
which is the person who leans in

459
00:34:34.639 --> 00:34:43.320
to discomfort. This is the person
who says why and what next? Versus

460
00:34:44.199 --> 00:34:49.039
why not? Or why the hell
is this happening to me right? This

461
00:34:49.199 --> 00:34:52.159
is the person who is willing to
take risks for their own growth. Is

462
00:34:52.199 --> 00:35:00.320
willing to innovate and willing to bring
together the creative force of an organization so

463
00:35:00.360 --> 00:35:05.559
that they all get energized to create
something different and better and they don't get

464
00:35:05.559 --> 00:35:09.400
stuck in best practice because they're always
looking for next practice. So that is

465
00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:15.760
the seeker archetype and it's to me, it's such an important archetype and somehow

466
00:35:15.800 --> 00:35:23.119
it's been suppressed in organizations today.
The next one is the coach archetype.

467
00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:30.840
The coach archetype is all about nurturing
other people in developing them and helping them

468
00:35:30.920 --> 00:35:37.079
become seekers right instead of instead of
pointing out mistakes. This is These are

469
00:35:37.079 --> 00:35:46.760
the people who have this unique ability
to help others reflect and really really step

470
00:35:46.760 --> 00:35:52.280
into their own growth and its step
into the fear and understand what is the

471
00:35:52.320 --> 00:36:00.960
reframing of fear so that they can
find growth an opportunity for themselves. The

472
00:36:00.960 --> 00:36:07.000
third archetype is the trust builder archetype. The trust builder archetype is someone who

473
00:36:07.039 --> 00:36:12.280
is able to create what I call
a jazz ensemble. I remember that from

474
00:36:12.280 --> 00:36:19.480
the podcast right, which is all
about when someone does something different instead of

475
00:36:19.480 --> 00:36:21.679
sitting now and say how the hell
could you do this? Man? Come

476
00:36:21.719 --> 00:36:24.559
on, what's wrong with you,
is able to riff off that and create

477
00:36:24.639 --> 00:36:30.679
new music, and is able to
get the whole system to create music together

478
00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:37.320
and energize everyone to feel that they're
part of creating something bigger. Right.

479
00:36:37.880 --> 00:36:42.599
And then the last one is what
is called the achiever archetype, which is

480
00:36:43.559 --> 00:36:49.599
again all about being driven from a
place of creating performance, but not at

481
00:36:49.679 --> 00:36:54.800
the exclusion of well being. It's
not done from a place of fear and

482
00:36:54.840 --> 00:36:59.480
stress. It's done from a place
of wisdom. This is the kind of

483
00:36:59.480 --> 00:37:05.119
person who doesn't feel the need to
talk when you know, just for the

484
00:37:05.880 --> 00:37:08.760
sake of talking, but doesn't feel
the need to stay quiet just because they're

485
00:37:08.760 --> 00:37:14.239
feeling like you know, that someone
might judge them. When they speak,

486
00:37:14.440 --> 00:37:19.079
everyone stops and listens because there's wisdom
in everything they say. So those are

487
00:37:19.119 --> 00:37:22.840
the four unfair archetypes. Oh so, listeners and viewers, if you don't

488
00:37:22.920 --> 00:37:25.880
find that compelling as a way forward
for yourself, I don't know what to

489
00:37:25.920 --> 00:37:29.400
do to help you. This is
so exciting, right, And so what

490
00:37:29.519 --> 00:37:31.440
I think about the work that I
get to do grow up helping organizations to

491
00:37:31.519 --> 00:37:36.719
create places of meaning where people feel
compelled to want to give their best and

492
00:37:36.719 --> 00:37:39.440
they want to grow. And then
we have leaders in sid those organizations that

493
00:37:39.480 --> 00:37:44.119
are actually stewarding all that. Just
like you're describing, that's where I want

494
00:37:44.159 --> 00:37:45.519
to be. That's the world I
want to live in. Right, So

495
00:37:45.920 --> 00:37:49.920
I really applaud the work that you're
doing. And this is so what you've

496
00:37:49.960 --> 00:37:52.199
done grow up in your work is
you've made this so much more accessible for

497
00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:55.559
us, and I really appreciate that
as you As you know, I've dripped

498
00:37:55.639 --> 00:37:59.760
every last word of it. So
and by the way, just fair word

499
00:37:59.760 --> 00:38:01.639
of war. This has been known
to happen where you know, when I'm

500
00:38:01.679 --> 00:38:05.320
not traveling or something, I could
show up on your doorstep, just so

501
00:38:05.360 --> 00:38:08.440
you know this has happened before that. Okay, good, fair word of

502
00:38:08.440 --> 00:38:13.880
warning. So so one of the
other things that you said already, which

503
00:38:13.920 --> 00:38:15.480
I do want to talk a little
bit more about because it's it's it's it's

504
00:38:15.599 --> 00:38:20.360
inviting to our listeners and viewers,
is the opportunity that you offer is you

505
00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:23.599
say that organizations do not transform,
it's individuals who do. And you say,

506
00:38:23.599 --> 00:38:30.719
when a critical massive individuals transforms,
then the organization transforms. Metamorphosis doesn't

507
00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:35.519
just change our behavior, but also
the perspective through which we've experienced life.

508
00:38:36.199 --> 00:38:38.960
So there's a way to really open
this that I think is so compelling one

509
00:38:39.159 --> 00:38:45.239
person at a time. Fascinating.
Yeah, and I mean most well as

510
00:38:45.280 --> 00:38:52.320
you know, being in this space. Most strategy consulting organizations tend to say,

511
00:38:52.760 --> 00:38:55.320
let's look at the system, and
let's change the system. Then we'll

512
00:38:55.320 --> 00:39:00.440
work on the team. Then we'll
work on the individual. The system and

513
00:39:00.559 --> 00:39:06.400
the team is a creation of the
mental models of the individual. So we

514
00:39:06.719 --> 00:39:08.760
recommend that you have to flip it. And not only just flip it,

515
00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:13.639
but you don't just work on behaviors. You work on the mental models that

516
00:39:13.719 --> 00:39:17.480
drive your behaviors. The way I
see things, the way I perceive things

517
00:39:19.480 --> 00:39:24.159
fundamentally drives how I act. You
know, I often go into organizations and

518
00:39:24.440 --> 00:39:28.800
you know, I say, hey, more important than the strategy of your

519
00:39:28.880 --> 00:39:34.320
organization is the mindset that created it. Absolutely, because if I know your

520
00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:37.360
mindset, I can tell you what
strategy you're going to create. H Right,

521
00:39:37.400 --> 00:39:42.760
And if I change your mindset,
now the possibility is opened up dramatically.

522
00:39:43.880 --> 00:39:46.639
So when you want greater possibility,
you have to work on the individual

523
00:39:46.719 --> 00:39:51.880
mindset and then the collective mindset and
then the system mindset. Mm hm,

524
00:39:52.360 --> 00:39:54.039
So let's go deep on that car
off because now you and I are really

525
00:39:54.079 --> 00:39:57.880
we could finish the other sentence this
here now because we're getting into the real

526
00:39:57.960 --> 00:40:00.599
juice of things. But for our
listeners and view about that mindset. So

527
00:40:00.679 --> 00:40:04.760
one of the things you talk about
in the book is that you offer three

528
00:40:04.880 --> 00:40:09.920
essential unfear practices of mindfulness, authentic
community, and examining our core values critical

529
00:40:09.920 --> 00:40:13.559
to get underneath that mindset. If
you will, can you say more about

530
00:40:13.559 --> 00:40:17.719
each one of those three? Sure? So which one should we start with?

531
00:40:17.760 --> 00:40:21.519
Which one do you want me to
start? Let's start with mindfulness?

532
00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:28.159
Yeah, So what is mindfulness?
It's a beautiful idea and every way it's

533
00:40:28.440 --> 00:40:30.920
you know, when I started doing
this work, I'm sure it was true

534
00:40:30.920 --> 00:40:35.920
for you when you said mindfulness or
meditation, everyone roller their eyes. Yes.

535
00:40:36.039 --> 00:40:37.800
I love your story in your book, by the way, your own

536
00:40:37.840 --> 00:40:39.840
story when you're in South Africa.
That's fascinating. Yeah. Yeah, and

537
00:40:39.880 --> 00:40:47.599
I was rolling my eyes like crazy
too. So so mindfulness is this idea

538
00:40:49.320 --> 00:40:52.559
that you are not that when you
are in the dance of things, when

539
00:40:52.559 --> 00:40:55.400
you're so caught up in doing things, you don't get lost in the doing

540
00:40:57.039 --> 00:41:01.480
so that you can't observe yourself doing
it, because when you get lost in

541
00:41:01.599 --> 00:41:07.679
the doing, you suddenly don't have
choice because now you're stuck in the doing.

542
00:41:07.599 --> 00:41:13.159
Mindfulness is the ability to observe yourself
in the act of doing, so

543
00:41:13.159 --> 00:41:20.280
that you are always in choice.
And fundamentally, that invites you to understand

544
00:41:20.360 --> 00:41:24.159
that you're not just an actor in
your life. You're actually the director of

545
00:41:24.199 --> 00:41:28.960
your life as well. You know. And the way I ask people to

546
00:41:28.960 --> 00:41:32.559
do that is I ask people to
think about you know. I asked a

547
00:41:32.760 --> 00:41:37.719
very stupid question. In fact,
I ask people how many of you ever

548
00:41:37.760 --> 00:41:42.719
have thoughts or ideas inside your head? And people look at me like I'm

549
00:41:42.719 --> 00:41:45.559
crazy and say, we all do
yeah all the time. Yeah. So

550
00:41:45.599 --> 00:41:50.079
I say, how do you know
that? So is it because we know?

551
00:41:50.440 --> 00:41:53.000
So? I said, that's the
interesting thing. Not only do you

552
00:41:53.079 --> 00:41:58.360
have your thoughts, you have the
ability to notice yourself thinking. And then

553
00:41:58.480 --> 00:42:06.360
noticing yourself thinking is mindfulness. And
if you are mindful about noticing now you

554
00:42:06.400 --> 00:42:09.480
can change your thoughts. If you
can't notice it, then you cannot.

555
00:42:09.800 --> 00:42:15.960
So mindfulness is the practice of being
on the balcony while being in the dance.

556
00:42:15.840 --> 00:42:22.159
So that you are the orchestrator of
your life, not just a player

557
00:42:22.199 --> 00:42:25.400
and not just an actor in it
or of That is by far and away

558
00:42:25.599 --> 00:42:30.480
the best description of a definition of
mindfulness I've ever heard. Thank you beautiful

559
00:42:30.920 --> 00:42:36.599
listening to viewers at your gift.
Okay. The second one is authentic community,

560
00:42:37.960 --> 00:42:44.199
authentic humility. So this is a
really interesting one. Right, So

561
00:42:44.400 --> 00:42:50.719
humility often is seen as making yourself
small. You know, when I often

562
00:42:50.760 --> 00:42:53.480
talk to people, they say,
you know, why say why don't you

563
00:42:53.519 --> 00:42:58.280
celebrate yourself? Oh? That because
I have humility, and you know,

564
00:42:58.320 --> 00:43:04.079
I've been taught to be authentic humility
comes from a place of wisdom, comes

565
00:43:04.079 --> 00:43:09.239
from a place of being comfortable with
who you are right and from that place

566
00:43:10.440 --> 00:43:16.480
the humility is to say, and
there's always more to learn, Yeah,

567
00:43:16.639 --> 00:43:21.679
right, authentic humility. Humility is
not about making yourself small, which collapses

568
00:43:21.679 --> 00:43:25.199
you. But it's about celebrating who
you are and celebrating from that place that

569
00:43:25.400 --> 00:43:30.320
every time, every moment, there's
there's growth and learning available to you.

570
00:43:30.800 --> 00:43:36.079
That is what true humility is and
authentic humility is. Otherwise it's just just

571
00:43:36.159 --> 00:43:40.519
something someone has told us as a
concept. Yeah, beautiful, also gorgeous

572
00:43:40.639 --> 00:43:45.639
not sure that I've ever heard anybody
quite described that it can authentic community that

573
00:43:45.679 --> 00:43:50.199
way. As while that's so bigger
and accessible, the last one is examining

574
00:43:50.199 --> 00:43:54.920
our core values. Yeah, so
this is this is interesting because core values

575
00:43:55.119 --> 00:44:00.960
now comes to the same conversation we'
even having earlier about your values are stories

576
00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:07.840
that you have been told or you've
told yourself, right, And when you

577
00:44:07.880 --> 00:44:14.440
ask what your core values are,
then you are actually truly being mindful and

578
00:44:14.480 --> 00:44:19.599
you're you are saying, hey,
I have the ability to be adaptable.

579
00:44:20.400 --> 00:44:24.800
It doesn't mean you change your values, but it asks you to query them

580
00:44:25.599 --> 00:44:30.480
to how it asks you. Is
it serving you? Is it allowing you

581
00:44:30.519 --> 00:44:35.280
to show up at your best and
be effective? Versus that's the given.

582
00:44:35.400 --> 00:44:39.119
I'm never going to question it,
and I'm stuck in it, right because

583
00:44:39.199 --> 00:44:47.280
as we live in a volatile,
constantly changing world, how do you how

584
00:44:47.320 --> 00:44:52.159
do you move with it? How
can you be authentic with it? And

585
00:44:52.239 --> 00:44:55.599
yet you know, be true to
your values. But if you don't query

586
00:44:55.679 --> 00:45:00.280
it, then you can't be true
to it. Then it just stuckness that

587
00:45:00.400 --> 00:45:07.159
you have versus a real, vibrant
living off what your truth is. M

588
00:45:07.840 --> 00:45:12.239
oh, So, this is the
beauty or of of doing being who you

589
00:45:12.280 --> 00:45:14.679
are in the world and doing the
work that you're doing. So so much

590
00:45:14.760 --> 00:45:16.199
of what I'm up to in the
world, which I know aligns with what

591
00:45:16.239 --> 00:45:21.599
you're doing too, is about elevating
consciousness, right, It's about being more

592
00:45:21.639 --> 00:45:23.400
aware of who we are being in
the world and how we're impacting other human

593
00:45:23.400 --> 00:45:29.880
beings and intentionally lifting more people than
destroying them. So I had a guy

594
00:45:29.880 --> 00:45:32.920
on the show on Tim Striker,
talking about, you know, how leaders

595
00:45:32.960 --> 00:45:37.599
can you know, literally leave a
negative path, you know, of destruction

596
00:45:37.719 --> 00:45:40.079
in their awake and they just don't
know it. Right. So what we've

597
00:45:40.079 --> 00:45:45.159
been talking about this whole time today
is really how can we elevate ourselves as

598
00:45:45.239 --> 00:45:50.559
leaders to be able to transform the
individuals inside those the organizations. And I

599
00:45:50.639 --> 00:45:52.199
think that is such a beautiful opportunity
that you've created. And there's so much

600
00:45:52.239 --> 00:45:55.480
more we could cover in this conversation
from your book. The action learning that

601
00:45:55.519 --> 00:46:00.639
you talk about is fascinating. There's
stuff about that you talk about here in

602
00:46:00.719 --> 00:46:05.400
terms of different practices that organizations can
undertake to bring about an unfear of transformation.

603
00:46:05.480 --> 00:46:07.559
But that just means they have to
read the book, right, So

604
00:46:07.599 --> 00:46:10.320
we have introduced the topic here and
now they can come back and read the

605
00:46:10.360 --> 00:46:14.920
book and ideally talk to you and
Mark. So we've come to the end

606
00:46:14.920 --> 00:46:16.599
here already, go Rob, and
you know that this show is something that's

607
00:46:16.639 --> 00:46:20.639
been by the way, the show
has been around for seven years. It's

608
00:46:20.679 --> 00:46:23.440
listened to by people around the world
who are interested in creating workplaces where people

609
00:46:23.480 --> 00:46:27.639
actually want to come to work and
do their best, create inspirational leaders that

610
00:46:27.679 --> 00:46:30.039
bring them to their greatness, and
we do business at better in the world.

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So, knowing that, what would
you like to leave our listeners with

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00:46:32.199 --> 00:46:44.800
today? So maybe two thoughts.
The first thought is that if you're looking

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00:46:44.840 --> 00:46:52.840
for joy on the outside, then
you are in the wrong place. Joy

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00:46:52.960 --> 00:46:54.920
is your state of being and when
you are in that state of being,

615
00:46:55.480 --> 00:47:00.840
then you can go after anything you
want. But the moment looking for joy

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00:47:00.840 --> 00:47:05.440
on the outside, then you make
yourself depleted. And if you're depleted,

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00:47:05.519 --> 00:47:09.719
you can't really be unfair. And
the other thought is this thought, which

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00:47:10.639 --> 00:47:15.320
which is the last line in the
book, actually is what We met this

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00:47:15.440 --> 00:47:17.519
guy on the edge of a forest
in South Africa and we told him about

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00:47:17.519 --> 00:47:24.199
our book and he told us good
luck, fellas fear is love that has

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00:47:24.280 --> 00:47:30.800
forgotten itself. Oh, fear is
love that is forgotten itself. So that

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00:47:30.920 --> 00:47:35.280
is my last thought for you.
What a gift you are. You and

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00:47:35.320 --> 00:47:37.320
Mark have created such an important piece
of work. I really applaud the work

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00:47:37.320 --> 00:47:40.280
that you're doing as well insid organizations. It is. It's a light to

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00:47:40.320 --> 00:47:44.239
have you on. I'm grateful you
came into my path and we will at

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00:47:44.239 --> 00:47:46.719
some point continue the conversation. Thank
you for being with us today. Thank

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00:47:46.760 --> 00:47:51.599
you so much for real honor.
Listeners and viewers. You want to learn

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00:47:51.599 --> 00:47:54.639
more about kor of Buttnagger, his
book Unfear, or the work they do

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00:47:54.719 --> 00:48:00.199
at co Creation Partners, start by
visiting co Creation Partners dot com. Last

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00:48:00.199 --> 00:48:04.039
week, you've missed the live show
you know as Catchy be recorded podcast.

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00:48:04.239 --> 00:48:07.519
We're on the air with Katherine Matiski
of Australia talking about her book Leading Virtual

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00:48:07.559 --> 00:48:12.559
Teams Managing from a Distance during the
Coronavirus. Next week we'll be on the

633
00:48:12.599 --> 00:48:15.360
air with Donna Cutting, the author
of Employees First, Inspire, engage and

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00:48:15.400 --> 00:48:19.639
focus on the heart of your organization. So you there, remember that works

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00:48:19.639 --> 00:48:23.360
at least or third of our life. So let's work on purpose. We

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00:48:23.400 --> 00:48:28.199
hope you've enjoyed this week's program.
Be sure to tune in to Working on

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00:48:28.280 --> 00:48:31.719
Purpose, featuring your host, doctor
Elise Cortes, each week on the Voice

638
00:48:31.760 --> 00:48:37.880
America Empowerment Channel. Together, we'll
create a world where business operates conscientiously,

639
00:48:38.519 --> 00:48:45.679
leadership inspires impassioned performance, and employees
are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning

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00:48:45.719 --> 00:48:50.239
and purpose they crave. See you
there, Let's Work on Purpose.