Fear: Redefining it from Debilitating to Transformative

WEBVTT

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What's working on purpose anyway? Each
week we ponder the answer to this question.

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People ache for meaning and purpose at
work, to contribute their talents passionately

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and know their lives really matter.
They crave being part of an organization that

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inspires them and helps them grow into
realizing their highest potential business can be such

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a force for good in the world, elevating humanity. In our program,

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we provide guidance and inspiration to help
usher in this world we all want working

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on purpose. Now Here is your
host, doctor Elise Cortez. Welcome back

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to the Working and Purpose Program.
Thanks for tuning it again this week.

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Great to have you. I'm your
host, doctor Elise Cortez, joining you

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live from Dallas, which is home
base for me. If you don't know

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me yet, I'm a management consultant
specializing in meaning and purpose, organizational logo

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therapist, instagrational speaker, social scientist, and author. My team that I

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help organizations discover and articulate their purpose
to throw it through their ut in operations.

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We work with forward thinking or forward
reaching organizations to develop inspirational leaders who

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create cultures where people actually want to
come to work and do their best,

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and we create programs like to Grab
Your Gusto that enable individual team members to

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discover and unleash their passion and purpose
at work to catalyze fulfillment, engagement,

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and productivity. You can learn more
about us and how we work together at

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at least Cortez dot com. With
us today is Garov Batnagar. Batnagarth,

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the founder of co Creation Partners,
which works co creatively with organizations to deliver

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performance and culture transformations and enhance leadership
development. He's the co author of Unfear

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Transform Your Organization to create breakthrough performance
and employee well Being, which will be

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discussing today on the program. Join
Today from Stanford, Connecticut. Grov,

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welcome to Working on Purpose. Thank
you. I'm so excited to be keep

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you. I am too, Garov. I really enjoy so much my role

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of hosting the show. I once
had somebody tell me that I'm a radio

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show host with a reading problem,
and it's true, right, And so

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I get to read these amazing books
from people like you who make my world

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better. So you, what you've
written about, Gorav is so so important,

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and I know it from the work
that I deal with organizations. To

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this this notion of fear. So
let's jump right into that, for it

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seems like such an easy word,
it's four letters, but it's very powerful.

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So from your vantage point, what
is fear and why and how does

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it serve humans? That's a great
question. So what is fear? Fear

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is an emotion that you experience when
you are either anticipating or facing an unpleasant

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event, person, or situation in
it's an emotion that is tremendously helpful for

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our physical survival. I mean,
if we did not have fear as a

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as a core emotion, chances we
could you know, be as human beings

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are probably the most ill equipped of
all animals to survive in on this planet.

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But fear allows us to understand what
are the situations in when we are

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in danger of physical threat, to
protect ourselves and not do things that which

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would get us into trouble. So
that's the benefit of fear, right right.

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Well, then, since you and
I both work inside companies to help

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leaders and organizations, why is fear
such a problem in organizations? That's a

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great question. So, so here's
the thing, you know, unlike,

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unlike in our everyday life or when
we were living in prehistoric times when they

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were sabre tooth cats trying to kill
us. Most of the time we are

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not getting killed in organizations, but
we behave like we are and unfortunately,

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the brain cannot differentiate physical threat from
emotional threat. And what happens is when

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we are under an emotional threat,
the thing that we're trying to protect is

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our ego, and in order to
protect our ego, we end up behaving

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in exactly those same patterns that we
do use when we are in physical threat.

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We either fight, we flight,
or we freeze right, and that

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leads to dysfunctional responses, and that
leads to dysfunctional reaction from the other side

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as well. So something which is
fundamental to our physical survival, when used

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in an emotional situation which is not
impacting your physical survival, leads to dysfunction.

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In fact, I would go to
the point of saying that fear is

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the single biggest source of waste in
organizations. You say that the book,

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Yeah, yeah, go ahead,
it's no, it's so, it's so.

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And when you say it that way, grow up. Think about how

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listeners and viewers think about this.
If ye is the single biggest wasting organization,

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shouldn't you do something about that right, And so what I think is

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so important about the work that you've
done is not saying that we must deny

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because I know that you also say, well in your book about there's a

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lot of we want to actually kind
of a race it out and pretend that

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it doesn't exist. And I really
appreciate or of that you and your co

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author Mark say that it's not about
removing fear or denying it. Rather,

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the solution is to transform our relationship
with fear. And you say, fear

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in it of itself is just an
emotion which is neither good nor bad.

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It's about our relationship to fear.
Can you see more about transforming our relationship

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to it? Yeah? Absolutely,
I mean so fear is fundamentally you know,

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so let's talk about the relationship of
fear is just an emotions And I

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said, it's neither good of that, it's just doing for you that there's

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a situation where there's some anxiety that
is happening. Now here's the interesting thing.

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Our relationship to fear is about the
story we create around it. Yes,

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right, And the single biggest superpower, the power that we have as

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human beings is our power of imagination. And you can imagine it to create

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all kinds of bad things for us, or you can imagine it to be

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an opportunity for learning in growth.
When you imagine it to be all kinds

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of bad things, you collapse into
it and you make the fear bigger than

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who you are. But when you
see it as an opportunity for learning in

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growth, you get curious about it
and you ask the question, what is

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it there to learn? When a
manager is screaming at me? What is

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there to learn in terms of how
I need to respond to that situation so

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it leads to a better outcome versus
saying, oh my god, my life

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is terrible. I have this used
useless manager and I'll always be in this

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miserable situation. Right. So there's
a fundamental reframing that we can do.

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But as Spider Man's uncle said,
with great power comes great responsibility, right.

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And unfortunately our superpower of imagination is
not like you know, you'll always

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use it for good, right,
So we often end up using it in

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suboptimal and dysfunctional ways. So true, that's the switch of the relationship.

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M m oh, this is so
good and so yummy, right, So

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I want to give this to our
listeners and viewers the way that you run

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it in the book, because your
writing is exquisite, it's very clear,

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and it's very Crispin's compelling you.
But you say that the fear the unfear

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process of reframing will free you from
your reactive patterns to fear and allow you

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to be to be in mastery rather
than having fear control you, which is

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what you just said. But you
further go on you say it will enable

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a state of being in which you
welcome fear as an opportunity to learn,

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a state that unlocks sustained performance as
an individual, a team, and an

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organization. So what I of course
I'm a sucker for learning that. It's

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not my number three strength for the
Guelph, Right, That's part of the

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reason I host a show, A
big reason I host a show. So

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I really appreciate or of how you've
let us into and invite us into the

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space to really, in many ways
embrace fear as a way to learn.

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And I think that's profoundly important and
really foundationally radical for our listeners and viewers.

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Yeah, And in fact, one
of the first things we do in

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organizations when we go in is we
actually draw a circle on a flip chart

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and we talk about the comfort zone. And you know, most people say

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comfort zone is a good thing,
and we say, yeah, great,

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but there's also you know, if
you stay too long, it leads to

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feeling completely stagnated. And then we
ask the question what happens when you get

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pushed out of the comfort zone,
And the first reaction is fear of failure,

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anxiety, stress, And then someone
says learning and growth, it's not

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going to that, and then we
say, hey, by the way,

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your learning zone lives outside your comfort
zone. And the thing that separates the

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learning zone and the comfort zone is
fear. And you have to go through

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fear to engage in significant learning in
your life. So fear is always a

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cute full learning in growth when it's
emotional in nature. And it's a transformative

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idea because now you're fundamentally seeing fear
as a place where you go and look

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for where your learning edges and where
your growth edges. M Oh, I

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have to go here, go off. So since I also work in the

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space of transformation, one of the
things that I've grappled with over time is

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how can I introduce in my workshops
the work that I do organizations, you

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know, introduce the discomfort. You
know what cup what happens when you go

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through divorce process in your world is
upside down, You get fired from a

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really great important job. You know, all kind of these things that happen

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to us that help us be able
to really transform to another level. And

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I've always wondered, how can I
inject that into my workshops to be able

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to provide that necessary element of fear
and discomfort? How do you do it?

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So, so there's a couple of
thoughts to that, right, So

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there's two ways I often do it. The first question I asked people to

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think about is think about is challenging
their life that they've experienced from which they

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have learned, right, And often
it is one of those deeply uncomfortable ones

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like theyso whatever whatever. And I
asked them to say, how do you

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feel about it today? Are you
better because of that? And think about

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how did you feel when you were
going through it? Right? And often

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we don't think about it, but
actually the process of going through it was

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deeply uncomfortable, and yet that is
what made us much more effective in showing

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up today. So that's one way. Okay, go ahead the other way.

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The other way is very simple.
I share with them it deeply,

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profoundly sad, but powerful shift in
my life, which was the passing of

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my father and how that led to
my own transformation in terms of how I

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understood relationships because I'm the younger of
two children, and I always thought I

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was going to be the baby of
the family relationship to my parents, and

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my father was unfortunately passed away within
five minutes, and all of a sudden,

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my mother became my child. Wow. And it's a profound experience and

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understanding the relationships are not fixed.
And even though there was fear and sadness

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in that moment, it was the
most transformational moment. And that's the way

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of helping people understand that in their
fear and then their sorrow, there's actually

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a huge seed learning and growth and
actually profound shifts if you choose to see

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them. You quote Victor Frankel in
your book, I'm an organizational logo therapist.

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I'm schooled in that whole in that
whole area. And yes, that

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is our opportunity. And you say
in your book, beautifully, we have

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always the choice in how we choose
to respond, and yet we humans need

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that tension, and so it's interesting, there's such an interesting balance and the

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worthy do we do need that tension, We need that to grow and we

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learn, but too much of it
is actually debilitating. So now what I

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want to get into next goorav is
there's listeners and viewers are probably thinking of

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themselves. You know. Sometimes fear
is good, you know, and it

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is to a certain extent. But
how do you know or how would we

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recognize? How would listeners and viewers
recognize the extent to which fear is present

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in their organizations? What does it
look like? So the way you recognize

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fear in your organization is not by
trying to measure fear, but to try

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and measure the behaviors that are showing
up, right, because that's the tangible

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manifestation of fear. And you know
that fear is in your organization if you

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see one of two patterns, and
then there are subdivisions of those patterns.

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The first pattern is what we call
the aggressive defensive pattern of the fight pattern

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ye, which is all about people
showing up in the organization from a point

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of view of wanting to prove themselves
in order to survive. Yeah, it's

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not done from a place of achieving. It has done from a place of

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trying to prove yourself right. Prove
yourself by pointing out mistakes other people do,

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prove yourself by controlling everything your subordinates
to prove yourself by always competing with

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other people and trying to be always
better. My brother is a great example

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of that. And the last one
is be so super perfectionistic that you do

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everything two percent right, not because
it's effective, but because that's the way

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you prove yourself. Now, the
other pattern that shows up in organizations where

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you hide into the background and you
hope that by hiding nothing bad will happen

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to you, right, And that's
often done by avoiding making tough decisions,

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just doing what your boss tells you
to do and not ever questioning it,

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following the rules to the tea,
or just being nice to people and never

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when you know, never saying anything
that would rock the board, because you

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want to be part of the many, right. So fundamentally, the way

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fear shows up is a combination of
these aggressive, defensive and defensive fight in

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flight patterns that mutually reinforce themselves and
often an organization. What you see is

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that the people who have the fight
patterns are saying that the reason why we

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behave this way is because those guys
are not doing what they're supposed to do.

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And the guys who are in the
flight pattern are saying, the reason

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we don't do anything is because the
guys are always screaming at us, and

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the more we'll try and do things, they'll scream at us. So it

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becomes a mutually reinforcing dysfunctional pattern.
So those are the behaviors you're looking for.

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That tells you whether there's fear in
the organization or not. Now,

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let's turn the coin over then go
off. What does an unfair organization look

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like? Great? So, first
of all, I don't think unfair organization

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is a destination. It's a way
of being And it's not like you stay

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in that state forever. You keep
going, you know, you keep moving

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and keep moving and you keep testing
you. But an unfair organization tends to

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display four aver of patterns. Again, we call these the wise thinking or

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constructive patterns. The first one is
around, you know, having a seeker

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mentality, which is about organizations where
people are in a learning mode all the

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time. They're curious, they're testing, the boundaries. They're taking risks which

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are within browns, but they are
mistaking. The second day is there's a

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lot of coaching going on. The
focus is not on proving what someone is

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doing wrong. The focus is on
how do I help other people develop?

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The third one is there's a lot
of trust building going on in the organization.

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The importance of the team is greater
than the importance of the individual.

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And the last one is that there's
a lot of achievement going on, but

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not from a place of desperation,
but from a place of thoughtful stretch,

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goals and planning that allows you to
show up in really effective ways and allows

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you to bring people along in a
way that they feel that they want to

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participate. Was if they feel they're
scared and therefore they have to participate.

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M beautiful Gorov. So, listeners
and viewers are going to go into our

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first break, and I want you
to think about which of the two organizations

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would you rather be in, the
more or the Fear organization or the unfear

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organization. If you're a leader,
which one do you want to stewart?

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So I'm your host, Doctor Elease
Cortez. We're on the air with Batner.

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He's the co author of Unfear,
Transforming organization to create breakthrough performance and

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employee well being. We've been talking
a bit about what is fear and now

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the shoping organizations. After the break, we're going to hear more about the

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book and its contents, and also
the eight archetypes of fear and organizations.

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Fascinating stuff. Staying with us,
We'll be right back. Doctor Release Cortez

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is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose and inspirational speaker and author.

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She helps companies visioneer for greater purpose
among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired leadership and

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meaning infused cultures that elp fulfillment,
performance and commitment within the workforce. To

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learn more or to invite a lease
to speak to your organization, please visit

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00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:11.400
her at a lease Cortez dot com. Let's talk about how to get your

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00:17:11.480 --> 00:17:23.160
employees working on purpose. This is
working on purpose with doctor Release Cortez.

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00:17:23.720 --> 00:17:27.640
To reach our program today or open
a conversation with a lease, send an

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00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:34.599
email to a lease alis at a
lease Cortez dot com. Now back to

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00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:40.880
working on purpose. Thank you for
staying with us, and welcome back to

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the program. Before we get back
to the conversation. I want to invite

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you to check out my first book
that came out in twenty twenty twenty.

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00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:49.680
It's called Purpose Ignited, How Inspiring
Leaders ignite passion and elvate cause. I

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00:17:49.759 --> 00:17:53.640
wrote that book to awaken the readers
to their passion and their purpose and transform

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them into inspirational leaders that can actually
store their people to their greater heights.

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And I use the content as a
base from my Violent Inspired program and the

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00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:03.880
grant your gustus. I hope you
check it out for joining me today.

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My guest is Goav Batnagar. He
is the founder of co Creation Partners,

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which works co creatively with organizations to
deliver performance and culture transformations and enhance leadership

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development. He's the co author of
Unfear, Transforming organization to creates, breakthrough

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performance and employee well Being. I'm
your host, doctor Elias Cortesse. So

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one of the things that you also
talk about, which is just really fascinating.

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What I find really compelling, Gov, is that we as human beings

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are these amazing creatures. Right.
We can create skyscrapers, we can go

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to the moon and back, but
at the end of the day, we

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are still constructed of this really prehistoric
way of being. It's fascinating. We

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have to be able to navigate that. So one of the things that you

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write about, and I've seen it
also firsthand many times at organizations, is

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that fear is contagious. You say, once fear becomes a mood or a

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habit for one person an organization,
that mindset can quickly spread. This is

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because humans, as deeply social beings, mirror the emotions and behaviors of the

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people around them. Yes, yes, and so yes, say more about

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that. Yeah, so you know, Here's here's the interesting idea. Organizations

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don't transform individuals still right, right, and not just organizations, but systems

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don't transform individuals do And and what
happens is because we learn from each other

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because we are, you know,
social beings. We learn by by what

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other people's experiences, and we learn
by how other people verbalize that experience,

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you know. And so for example, if if there's a system where there's

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constant talk about fear and constant talk
about how someone is bad doing bad things

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to us, we then start orstracizing
that person because that person is now dangerous

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to us. And the way we
learn is through repetition. So the more

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we hear it again and again and
again, the more it becomes part of

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us. So if there's one individual
who is tremendously influential, he usually repeats

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the same thing again and again.
It starts infecting everyone else. That's how

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movements of on. That's what politics
in America is today, right. Unfortunately,

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it's all about one side and the
other side having their own fear narrative.

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They keep repeating and then everyone just
joins in, and then we start

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creating separation. And every time there's
an election, we spend one billion dollars

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more than the last one. And
all it does is leads to fragmentation.

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And that's the social nature in which
how this thing all works. Yes,

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and I want to take it one
step for the go off, So listeners

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and viewers just put yourself in the
scenari You've been here a million times,

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I promise. You walk into a
meeting and the first thing you start to

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realize just as you walk in,
first that you can sense that there's a

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tension hanging in the air. Then
you start to notice body language. This

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is all happening unconsciously. By the
way you start to notice the body language,

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people are stiff, and when people
are speaking at short, staccato kind

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of words or phrases, and so
they're holding themselves, they're protecting themselves.

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And then you start to notice that
Joe over there, who always has an

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opinion, is not speaking up because
he's scared. He knows he's going to

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be shut down. So when you
start to recognize how this really does sweep

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how contagious this really is, now
think about how this shuts down innovation engagement

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performance. I mean, this is
this is real and there's so that's such

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an opportunity to be able to address
this as you're as you're helping organizations do

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go up. Your work is so
critically important. Yeah, and at least

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if I don't know if you've read
the book Primary Leadership, but they say

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that, you know, they've done
this experiment again and again. They bring

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three people off the street inside of
the room. They ask them to sit

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there for two minutes without saying anything, and before they get in, they

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have to answer all kinds of things, including what emotion and you're feeling and

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how strongly you're feeling it, And
in seventy percent of the situations in those

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two minutes the person who's feeling and
emotion the most affects the other two people

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with that emotion without saying a single
thing. The good news is that the

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easiest emotion to infect someone with this
joy. The bad news is the next

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two of anger and fear. Right, and just by the state in which

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we are, the more we are
in reinfect other people, especially when we

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are in positions of power and influence
within the system. Oh, this is

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so important. No, I don't
know that book, but now it means

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I have to go out and find
the author and invite them on. So

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thank you for that. So let's
let's bring our listeners and viewers back and

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were like Suddy is starting to feel
upset in tense or of what we're discussing.

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Let's bring them back into an opportunity
zone. Okay, So what you

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say in the book is the more
you are aware of and interrupt your habitual

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responses to fear, the weaker than
neurologic pathways will become. The less time

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you'll spend in a mood of fear. That's an opportunity that's encouraging. Yeah,

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and so again, as I said, reality is what you repeat to

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yourself again and again again. So
if you repeat something different, which is

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if you have an imagination, you
repeat something different, It's like it's like

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a path that is created in a
meadow. If you keep walking on the

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same path, it creates a path. If you stop walking that path,

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then the path disappears, and if
you start walking a new paath, it

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starts creating. So be very aware
of what you're saying to yourself, because

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what you say to yourself becomes your
reality. Be very aware of the people

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you are with because the people you
are aware what they're saying to you becomes

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your reality. Which is why.
Also be very aware of the social media

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you consume and the things you're type
because you are you are in an echo

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chamber, and that echo chamber starts
creating your reality. But if you want

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to shift that echo chamber, it's
very easy to do because you just need

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to find a new place and you
can shift. And the question you have

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to ask yourself, this is the
most important people think about life and good,

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bad, right, wrong. The
only question you need to ask yourself

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is am I being effective in this
situation? And co find what prepetition you

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need to do in order to be
effective. It's an element whether you're right

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or wrong, because people can be
a one hundred percent wrong and zero percent

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effective, and that's the last thing
in an organization that can happen because people

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get super self righteous and they make
everyone else wrong and then they physally end

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up feeling isolated themselves. Well,
and again, I like what you talk

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about is that you know, we're
not constrained by our biology. We have

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these amazing superpowers of language and imagination, and we can intervene in this stuff.

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And we as individuals can intervene in
this stuff as well as leaders can.

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And I think, what, of
course the work that I do,

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I stand to empower individuals and organizations
right, So to me, that's that

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beautiful space that you open for us
to be able to help us understand what's

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going on for us. But how
can we actually intervene to be able to

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create a world and organization where we
actually want to live and work? Sure?

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And to me, the most important
mindset shift, which I talk about

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in chapter five is this idea that
we are not dysfunctional beings that need to

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be fixed. We are beings with
infinite potential that need to remove the unnecessary

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stories that we have in our head
to actually live into our potential and that

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we are actually amazing the way we
are rather than we are messed up.

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I of course applaud that tip to
its very last molecule. Of course.

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Now, one of the other things
that you guys do you and Mark that

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I find really really compelling and really
appreciate that certainly as a social scientist,

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is that you've identified these eight fear
archetypes that are found in organizations. And

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I find that it's extremely accessible group, because it's one thing to talk about

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fear, but it's quite another to
characterize it the way that you did.

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So I think it would be extremely
useful for our listeners and viewers if you

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could sort of high level talk about
each one of them. Sure, So

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the first archetype we talk about is
the fault finder archetype. So then this

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is very interesting. I'm sure people
can recognize it. Do you know people

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in your life, when you're doing
a presentation, instead of them focusing on

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the content, they say, oh, on that line, you've got the

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phont tram. That's your classic fault
finder. They are constantly looking for what

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is wrong, and in organizations,
when that happens, then you have many

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people who tell you why you can't
do it, and very few people who

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support you in making something happen.
So everything is about no versus enablement.

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Right. So that is the first
one. The second one is called the

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controllers. The controllers are all about
making sure that everything is two hundred percent

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predictable. Right. I will try
and control everything. I'll micromanage everything because

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I believe I have this all set
and that if I micromanage everything, things

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will be okay. And that's why
I think the one blessing of COVID is

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it has blown the myth of control
from our lives. Because we can try

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and control everything, we have literally
very little control, so it actually destroys

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the flexibility and adaptability of organizations.
The third one is called competitors. And

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competitors are your classic You all know
them, right, I mean you might

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be one of them. I am
definitely, definitely have this tendency of I

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prove my value by beating everyone else, right, And this is the core

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of my silos of there in organizations
because I need my team to win and

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I want the other team to not
be as good as I am, or

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if something goes wrong, it's because
of finance. Not because of sales.

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Right, So competitors are all about
we are better and we are fine and

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everyone else is not fine, right, And so that's a competitor. And

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the fourth one is a perfectionist,
which is, I'm not going to share

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with you anything till it's three right, And it doesn't matter if I they're

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not contributing to the bigger picture of
what needs to happen in the organization.

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I Am not going to make a
single mistake. And when we do that,

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we actually lose the bigger picture.
Now, none of these four archetypes.

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People are behaving like this because they
want to be bad people. Right,

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they do it with good intention,
but when it's done excessively, it

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actually leads to dysfunctional outcomes. And
unconsciously right and unconsciously absolutely absolutely so.

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On the other side, we have
the avoiders. The avoiders they avoid difficult

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decisions, they avoid difficult conversation,
they avoid they just basically will not engage

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in anything that is likely to end
up blowing up in their face. Now,

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00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:14.279
unfortunately, in an organization where there
are a lot of avoiders, very

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00:29:14.319 --> 00:29:19.880
little happens. Yes, and in
our experience at least at least the avoider

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00:29:21.000 --> 00:29:26.039
archetype is probably the most dysfunctional archetype
that can exist in an organization because it

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00:29:26.119 --> 00:29:30.519
paralyzes the organization. Yeah, so
that's the next one. The next one

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00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:34.200
is called the minions. Now that's
a bit of a bit of a pejorative

389
00:29:34.279 --> 00:29:38.440
term, but we wanted it to
avocate a certain response. But the minions

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are people who say, the only
customer I really have is my boss.

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00:29:44.200 --> 00:29:48.319
Yeah, right, even though when
we talk about customers, but really my

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only customer is my boss, and
all I do is please my boss because

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that's how I'll protect myself. And
that leads to again dysfunction because now you're

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not challenging things. You know things
need to be done differently, but you

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just do it because your boss asked
for it. Another version of that type

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00:30:07.759 --> 00:30:11.079
is the sticklers. The miniers look
at the boss. The sticklers look at

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the rule book. You know,
they'll throw the rule book at you anytime

398
00:30:15.440 --> 00:30:18.960
you try and come up with a
new idea. There's a no least that's

399
00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:23.279
not possible. The rule book says
that you have to do it this way

400
00:30:22.359 --> 00:30:27.440
right right, and at some level
it creates consistency, but at another level

401
00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:33.759
it doesn't allow for innovation and creativity
to happen. And finally, the last

402
00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:38.359
group is the likables, right,
which is which? Which? Which is?

403
00:30:38.440 --> 00:30:42.519
Also I call the nice idea,
which is nothing in me cares enough

404
00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:48.559
to tell you the truth. So
superficially everything is nice. You know,

405
00:30:48.599 --> 00:30:52.200
we are polite, but there's so
much which is under the water, which

406
00:30:52.240 --> 00:30:56.640
is simmering and can explode anytime,
but no one is actually having a conversation

407
00:30:56.720 --> 00:31:00.839
around. So those are your eight
architects. Fascinating. I really hats off

408
00:31:00.839 --> 00:31:04.599
as a researcher and somebody who really
tries to understand organizations. I think what

409
00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:08.559
you've done with those archetypes, if
you've really created a compelling space for our

410
00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:11.839
listeners and viewers to be able to
start to recognize which one of those do

411
00:31:11.920 --> 00:31:15.519
you tend to fall into. So
as we go into our next break here,

412
00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:18.480
if you would listeners and viewers consider
which one of those do you think

413
00:31:18.519 --> 00:31:22.839
you fall into? You can identify
your general tendency and what do you see

414
00:31:22.839 --> 00:31:26.640
in your organization. So on that
note, let's grab our next break.

415
00:31:26.839 --> 00:31:29.680
I'm your host, doctor Release Cortez. We've been in the air with gorev

416
00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:33.720
Batnagger, who is a co author
of Unfear Transform Organization to create breakthrough performance

417
00:31:33.720 --> 00:31:37.079
and employee well being. We've been
talking a bit about the archetypes. After

418
00:31:37.079 --> 00:31:40.359
the break, we're going to talk
more about how you can use this information

419
00:31:40.400 --> 00:31:42.440
to be able to unfear your organization. Stay with us, we'll be right

420
00:31:42.480 --> 00:31:48.880
back. Doctor Release Cortez is a
management consultant specializing in meaning and purpose.

421
00:31:48.279 --> 00:31:55.200
An inspirational speaker and author, she
helps companies visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders

422
00:31:55.440 --> 00:32:01.160
and develop purpose inspired leadership and meaning
infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance,

423
00:32:01.359 --> 00:32:06.920
and commitment within the workforce. To
learn more or to invite a Lease to

424
00:32:06.920 --> 00:32:10.400
speak to your organization, please visit
her at a lease Cortez dot com.

425
00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:22.599
Let's talk about how to get your
employees working on purpose. This is working

426
00:32:22.640 --> 00:32:27.079
on Purpose with doctor Release Cortez.
To reach our program today or open a

427
00:32:27.119 --> 00:32:31.880
conversation with a Lease, send an
email to a Lease Ali se at Elise

428
00:32:31.960 --> 00:32:39.559
Cortez dot com. Now back to
working on purpose. Thanks for staying with

429
00:32:39.599 --> 00:32:42.640
us, and welcome back to working
on Purpose. One of the bit of

430
00:32:42.680 --> 00:32:44.799
news I want to share with you
before we go back to the program is

431
00:32:45.119 --> 00:32:49.240
last August of twenty one, I
released a second book, and I'm actually

432
00:32:49.400 --> 00:32:52.079
almost more proud of this book than
i am my first one. So this

433
00:32:52.200 --> 00:32:55.640
calls it's called Passionately Striving and why. It's an anthology of women who persegram

434
00:32:55.640 --> 00:32:59.720
mindly to live their purpose. And
what I did was I literally scoured the

435
00:32:59.720 --> 00:33:02.640
play in it and found twenty five
women from across the world, from Australia

436
00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:07.880
to Zambia who share their very intimate
stories of how they've discovered their purpose are

437
00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:09.279
now serving from it. And the
idea is that it's a way for you

438
00:33:09.359 --> 00:33:13.839
to be able to access your own
purpose and be inspired to pursue it yourself.

439
00:33:14.200 --> 00:33:15.799
So help you pick it up.
It's on Amazon as well. You're

440
00:33:15.839 --> 00:33:19.279
just joining us today. My guest
is Gore V. Botnegger. He is

441
00:33:19.319 --> 00:33:22.599
the co founder of co Creation Partners, which works co creatively with organizations to

442
00:33:22.640 --> 00:33:29.160
deliver performance and culture transformations and enhance
leadership development. He's the co author of

443
00:33:29.359 --> 00:33:32.759
Unfear, Transforming organization to create breakthrough
performance and employee well being. I'm your

444
00:33:32.759 --> 00:33:37.920
host, Doc Jolie's Cortez. So
we left the last bit of conversation there

445
00:33:37.960 --> 00:33:40.039
really kind of a cliffhanger of you
know what are the eight archetypes of fear

446
00:33:40.039 --> 00:33:44.839
and organizations. Now let's talk about
the other side again of that important coin,

447
00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:47.039
and that is if you would go
up do something similar by sharing the

448
00:33:47.119 --> 00:33:54.519
four unfear archetypes before I listen to
it that I am super excited to hear

449
00:33:54.559 --> 00:33:58.920
about your books. So I'm going
to be measurably after this going buy your

450
00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:06.119
books. Oh it's super interesting.
I'm really excited. Thank you. Yeah.

451
00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:07.480
Which then, and by the way, go up. Just so you

452
00:34:07.480 --> 00:34:10.920
know, I am out now scouting
for men for the men's anthology collections.

453
00:34:10.920 --> 00:34:14.599
So if you or anyone you know
who want to be part of that book,

454
00:34:14.719 --> 00:34:16.320
let me know. So that's my
next thing. I would love to

455
00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:22.320
That would be a real honor.
Okay, you're welcome. Yeah. So

456
00:34:22.480 --> 00:34:27.079
on the on the other side,
the unfair archetypes. The first one is

457
00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:32.559
the secret right architect and this is
the archetype, which which is the person

458
00:34:32.599 --> 00:34:40.239
who leans in to discomfort. This
is the person who says why and what

459
00:34:40.480 --> 00:34:46.400
next? Versus why not? Or
why the hell is this happening to me

460
00:34:47.159 --> 00:34:51.840
right? This is the person who
is willing to take risks for their own

461
00:34:51.880 --> 00:34:58.440
growth, is willing to innovate and
willing to bring together the creative force of

462
00:34:58.480 --> 00:35:04.880
an organization so that they all get
energized to create something different and better and

463
00:35:04.920 --> 00:35:08.079
they don't get stuck in best practice
because they're always looking for next practice.

464
00:35:08.840 --> 00:35:15.639
So that is the seeker archetype and
it's to me, it's such an important

465
00:35:15.679 --> 00:35:22.800
archetype and somehow it's been suppressed in
organizations today. The next one is the

466
00:35:22.880 --> 00:35:30.920
coach archetype. The coach archetype is
all about nurturing other people in developing them

467
00:35:30.920 --> 00:35:37.400
and helping them become seekers, right, instead of instead of pointing out mistakes.

468
00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:42.119
This is These are the people who
have this unique ability to help others

469
00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:50.559
reflect and really really step into their
own growth and its step into the into

470
00:35:50.599 --> 00:35:55.159
the fear and understand what is the
reframing of fear so that they can find

471
00:35:55.159 --> 00:36:02.599
growth an opportunity for themselves. The
third archetype is the trust builder archetype.

472
00:36:04.199 --> 00:36:08.480
The trust builder archetype is someone who
is able to create what I call a

473
00:36:08.559 --> 00:36:15.800
jazz ensemble. Remember that from the
podcast right, which is all about when

474
00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:20.840
someone does something different instead of setting
in now say how the hell could you

475
00:36:20.840 --> 00:36:23.199
do this? Man? Come on, what's wrong with you, is able

476
00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:28.159
to riff off that and create new
music, and is able to get the

477
00:36:28.199 --> 00:36:35.679
whole system to create music together and
energize everyone to feel that they're part of

478
00:36:35.719 --> 00:36:39.639
creating something bigger. Right. And
then the last one is what is called

479
00:36:39.639 --> 00:36:45.400
the achiever archetype, which is again
all about being driven from a place of

480
00:36:46.679 --> 00:36:53.760
creating performance, but not at the
exclusion of welby. It's not done from

481
00:36:53.760 --> 00:36:58.639
a place of fear and stress.
It's done from a place of wisdom.

482
00:36:58.679 --> 00:37:04.400
This is the kind of person who
doesn't feel the need to talk when you

483
00:37:04.519 --> 00:37:07.320
know, just for this his sake
of talking, but doesn't feel the need

484
00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:12.760
to stay quiet just because they're feeling
like you know that if someone might judge

485
00:37:12.760 --> 00:37:16.760
them when they speak, everyone stops
and listens because there's wisdom in everything they

486
00:37:16.760 --> 00:37:22.639
say. So those are the four
unfair archetects. Oh So, listeners and

487
00:37:22.719 --> 00:37:25.239
viewers, if you don't find that
compelling as a way forward for yourself,

488
00:37:25.239 --> 00:37:28.480
I don't know what to do to
help you. This is so exciting,

489
00:37:28.840 --> 00:37:30.800
right, and so what I think
about the work that I get to do

490
00:37:30.920 --> 00:37:35.800
grow up helping organizations to create places
of meaning where people feel compelled to want

491
00:37:35.840 --> 00:37:38.400
to give their best and they want
to grow. And then we have leaders

492
00:37:38.400 --> 00:37:42.320
and said, these organizations that are
actually stewarding all that. Just like you're

493
00:37:42.320 --> 00:37:45.239
describing, that's where I want to
be, that's the world I want to

494
00:37:45.239 --> 00:37:47.599
live in. Right, So I
really applaud the work that you're doing.

495
00:37:47.639 --> 00:37:51.840
And this is so what you've done
grow up in your work is you've made

496
00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:54.360
this so much more accessible for us, and I really appreciate that as you

497
00:37:54.519 --> 00:37:58.440
As you know, I'm dripped every
last word of it. So and by

498
00:37:58.480 --> 00:38:00.559
the way, just fair word of
war. This has been known to happen

499
00:38:00.599 --> 00:38:04.239
where you know, when I'm out
traveling or something, I could show up

500
00:38:04.280 --> 00:38:07.760
on your doorstep, just so you
know this has happened before. Okay,

501
00:38:07.840 --> 00:38:13.000
good, Just fair word of warning. So one of the other things that

502
00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:15.199
you said already, which I do
want to talk a little bit more about

503
00:38:15.239 --> 00:38:19.519
because it's it's it's it's inviting to
our listeners and viewers, is the opportunity

504
00:38:19.519 --> 00:38:22.360
that you offer is you say that
organizations do not transform, it's individuals who

505
00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:27.599
do. And you say, when
a critical massive individuals transforms, then the

506
00:38:27.719 --> 00:38:34.000
organization transforms. Metamorphosis doesn't just change
our behavior, but also the perspective through

507
00:38:34.039 --> 00:38:37.360
which we've experienced life. So there's
a way to really open this that I

508
00:38:37.360 --> 00:38:43.719
think is so compelling one person at
a time. Fascinating. Yeah, and

509
00:38:43.760 --> 00:38:50.039
I mean most well as you know, being in this space. Most strategy

510
00:38:50.119 --> 00:38:53.760
consulting organizations tend to say, let's
look at the system and let's change the

511
00:38:53.800 --> 00:38:59.760
system. Then we'll welcome the team, then we'll welcome the individual. But

512
00:39:00.559 --> 00:39:04.639
the system and the team is a
creation of the mental models of the individual.

513
00:39:05.679 --> 00:39:08.159
So we recommend that you have to
flip it. And not only just

514
00:39:08.239 --> 00:39:12.039
flip it, but you don't just
work on behavior, as you work on

515
00:39:12.079 --> 00:39:16.360
the mental models that drive your behaviors. The way I see things, the

516
00:39:16.400 --> 00:39:22.880
way I perceive things fundamentally drives how
I act. You know, I often

517
00:39:22.920 --> 00:39:28.559
go into organizations and you know,
I say, more important than the strategy

518
00:39:28.559 --> 00:39:32.960
of your organization is the mindset that
created it. Absolutely, because if I

519
00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:36.960
know your mindset, I can tell
you what strategy you're going to create,

520
00:39:37.079 --> 00:39:42.079
right, And if I change your
mindset, now the possibility is open up

521
00:39:42.159 --> 00:39:46.119
dramatically. So when you want greater
possibility, you have to work on the

522
00:39:46.159 --> 00:39:51.039
individual mindset, and then the collective
mindset, and then the system mindset.

523
00:39:52.320 --> 00:39:54.119
So let's go deeper on that carp
because now you and I are really we

524
00:39:54.119 --> 00:39:58.559
could finish another sentences here now because
we're getting into the real juice of things.

525
00:39:58.840 --> 00:40:00.599
But for our listeners in view,
worse about that mindset. So I

526
00:40:00.639 --> 00:40:04.400
wanted to give the things you talk
about in the book is that you offer

527
00:40:04.519 --> 00:40:09.840
three essential unfair practices of mindfulness,
authentic community and examining our core values critical

528
00:40:09.920 --> 00:40:13.719
to get underneath that mindset if you
work, can you say more about each

529
00:40:13.719 --> 00:40:17.719
one of those three? Sure?
So which one should we start with?

530
00:40:17.760 --> 00:40:22.199
Which one do you want me to
start? Let's start with mindfulness? Yeah?

531
00:40:22.320 --> 00:40:28.119
So what is mindfulness? It's a
beautiful idea. And every ways,

532
00:40:28.400 --> 00:40:30.880
you know, when I started doing
this work, I'm sure it was true

533
00:40:30.920 --> 00:40:35.880
for you when you said mindfulness or
meditation, everyone roll their eyes. Yes,

534
00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:37.800
I love your story in your book, by the way, your own

535
00:40:37.800 --> 00:40:40.119
story when you're in South Africa.
That's fascinating. Yeah, and I was

536
00:40:40.199 --> 00:40:47.559
rolling my eyes like crazy too.
So so so, mindfulness is this idea

537
00:40:49.280 --> 00:40:52.679
that you are not when you are
in the dance of things, when you're

538
00:40:52.679 --> 00:40:55.360
so caught up in doing things,
you don't get lost in the doing,

539
00:40:55.960 --> 00:41:01.440
so that you can't observe yourself doing
it, because when you get lost in

540
00:41:01.559 --> 00:41:07.679
the doing, you suddenly don't have
choice because now you're stuck in the doing.

541
00:41:07.559 --> 00:41:13.119
Mindfulness is the ability to observe yourself
in the act of doing, so

542
00:41:13.159 --> 00:41:20.440
that you are always in choice.
And fundamentally that invites you to understand that

543
00:41:20.519 --> 00:41:24.320
you're not just an actor in your
life. You're actually the director of your

544
00:41:24.360 --> 00:41:29.079
life as well. You know.
And the way I ask people to do

545
00:41:29.119 --> 00:41:32.840
that is I ask people to think
about you know, I ask a very

546
00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:37.800
stupid question. In fact, I
ask people how many if you ever have

547
00:41:37.119 --> 00:41:43.039
thoughts or ideas inside your head?
And people look at me like I'm crazy

548
00:41:43.079 --> 00:41:45.639
and say, we all do yeah
all the time. Yeah. So I

549
00:41:45.679 --> 00:41:50.519
say, how do you know?
That said because we know, so,

550
00:41:50.559 --> 00:41:53.800
I said, that's the interesting thing. Not only do you have your thoughts,

551
00:41:53.840 --> 00:41:59.880
you have the ability to notice yourself
thinking and then noticing yourself think.

552
00:42:00.039 --> 00:42:06.519
King is mindfulness, and if you
are mindful about noticing now, you can

553
00:42:06.599 --> 00:42:09.519
change your thoughts. If you can't
can't notice it, then you cannot.

554
00:42:09.760 --> 00:42:15.920
So mindfulness is the practice of being
on the balcony while being in the dance,

555
00:42:15.800 --> 00:42:22.119
so that you are the orchestrator of
your life, not just a player

556
00:42:22.119 --> 00:42:25.360
and not just an actor in it. Or that is by far and away

557
00:42:25.559 --> 00:42:30.840
the best description of a definition of
mindulness I've ever heard. Thank you,

558
00:42:30.920 --> 00:42:37.400
beautiful listening viewers at your gift.
Okay. The second one is authentic humility.

559
00:42:37.920 --> 00:42:44.159
Authentic humility. So this is a
really interesting one. Right. So

560
00:42:44.400 --> 00:42:50.679
humility often is seen is making yourself
small. You know when when I often

561
00:42:50.719 --> 00:42:53.159
talk to people, they say,
you know why, I say, why

562
00:42:53.159 --> 00:42:58.119
don't you celebrate yourself? Oh?
That because I have humility, and you

563
00:42:58.159 --> 00:43:02.800
know, I've been taught to be
authentic humility comes from a place of wisdom,

564
00:43:02.800 --> 00:43:08.480
comes from a place of being comfortable
with who you are right and from

565
00:43:08.519 --> 00:43:15.599
that place the humility is to say, and there's always more to learn.

566
00:43:15.679 --> 00:43:20.840
Yeah, right, authentic humility.
Humility is not about making yourself small,

567
00:43:20.840 --> 00:43:24.760
which collapses you. But it's about
celebrating who you are and celebrating from that

568
00:43:24.800 --> 00:43:30.159
place that every time, every moment, there's there's growth and learning available to

569
00:43:30.199 --> 00:43:34.840
you. That is what true humility
is, an authentic humility is. Otherwise

570
00:43:34.880 --> 00:43:39.639
it's just just something someone has told
us as a concept. Yeah, beautiful

571
00:43:39.719 --> 00:43:45.119
also gorgeous, not not sure that
I've ever heard anybody quite describe that authentic

572
00:43:45.079 --> 00:43:49.559
community that way as well. That's
so bigger and accessible. The last one

573
00:43:49.639 --> 00:43:54.000
is examining our core values. Yeah, so this is this is interesting because

574
00:43:54.119 --> 00:44:00.440
core values now comes to the same
conversation even having earlier about your values are

575
00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:07.679
stories that you have been told or
you've told yourself, right, And when

576
00:44:07.719 --> 00:44:14.199
you ask what your core values are, then you are actually truly being mindful

577
00:44:14.320 --> 00:44:19.519
and you're you are saying, hey, I have the ability to be adaptable.

578
00:44:20.360 --> 00:44:24.239
It doesn't mean you change your values, but it asks you to query

579
00:44:24.280 --> 00:44:30.280
them to how it asks you.
Is it serving you? Is it allowing

580
00:44:30.320 --> 00:44:35.280
you to show up at your best
and be effective? Versus that's the given.

581
00:44:35.360 --> 00:44:39.119
I'm never going to question it.
And I'm stuck in it right because

582
00:44:39.199 --> 00:44:47.280
as we live in a volatile,
constantly changing world, how do you how

583
00:44:47.280 --> 00:44:52.119
do you move with it? How
can you be authentic with it? And

584
00:44:52.199 --> 00:44:55.559
yet you know, be true to
your values? But if you don't query

585
00:44:55.639 --> 00:45:00.480
it, then you can't be true
to it. Then it it's just the

586
00:45:00.559 --> 00:45:06.639
stuckness that you have us a real
vibrant living off what your truth is.

587
00:45:07.800 --> 00:45:12.599
Oh, so this is the beauty
of doing being who you are in the

588
00:45:12.599 --> 00:45:15.239
world and doing the work that you're
doing. So so much of what I'm

589
00:45:15.320 --> 00:45:16.960
up to in the world, which
I know aligns with what you're doing too,

590
00:45:17.280 --> 00:45:22.159
is about elevating consciousness, right,
It's about being more aware of who

591
00:45:22.159 --> 00:45:25.400
we are being in the world and
how we're impacting other human beings and intentionally

592
00:45:25.519 --> 00:45:30.320
lifting more people than destroying them.
So I had a guy on the show

593
00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:34.440
on Tim Steiker Striker talking about,
you know, how leaders can you know,

594
00:45:34.599 --> 00:45:38.199
literally leave a negative path of you
know, of destruction in their awake

595
00:45:38.280 --> 00:45:40.679
and they just don't know it,
right. So what we've been talking about

596
00:45:40.679 --> 00:45:45.119
this whole time today is really how
can we elevate ourselves as leaders to be

597
00:45:45.239 --> 00:45:51.000
able to transform the individuals inside those
the organizations. And I think that is

598
00:45:51.000 --> 00:45:52.679
such a beautiful opportunity that you've created. And there's so much more we could

599
00:45:52.679 --> 00:45:57.000
cover in this conversation from your book. The action learning that you talk about

600
00:45:57.079 --> 00:46:00.239
is fascinating. There's stuff about that
you talk about here in terms of different

601
00:46:00.239 --> 00:46:05.679
practices that organizations can undertake to bring
about an unfear of transformation. But that

602
00:46:05.719 --> 00:46:07.920
just means they have to read the
book, right, So we have introduced

603
00:46:07.960 --> 00:46:12.000
the topic here and now they can
come back and read the book and ideally

604
00:46:12.039 --> 00:46:15.079
talk to you with Mark. So
we've come to the end here. I

605
00:46:15.079 --> 00:46:17.159
already go Rob, And you know
that this show is something that's been by

606
00:46:17.159 --> 00:46:21.199
the way, show has been around
for seven years. It's listened to by

607
00:46:21.239 --> 00:46:23.960
people around the world who are interested
in creating work places where people actually want

608
00:46:23.960 --> 00:46:28.039
to come to work and do their
best, create inspirational leaders that bring them

609
00:46:28.039 --> 00:46:30.280
to their greatness, and we do
business at better as the world. So,

610
00:46:30.440 --> 00:46:32.800
knowing that, what would you like
to leave our listeners with today,

611
00:46:36.159 --> 00:46:45.280
So maybe two socks? The first
start is that if you're looking for joy

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00:46:45.320 --> 00:46:52.199
on the outside, then you are
in the wrong place. Joy is your

613
00:46:52.239 --> 00:46:55.639
state of being, and when you
are in that state of being, then

614
00:46:55.679 --> 00:47:00.800
you can go after anything you want. But the moment you're looking for joy

615
00:47:00.800 --> 00:47:05.400
on the outside, then you make
yourself depleted. And if you're depleted,

616
00:47:05.480 --> 00:47:10.880
you can't really be unfair. And
the other thought is the thought which which

617
00:47:10.880 --> 00:47:15.639
is the last line in the book, actually is what We met this guy

618
00:47:15.719 --> 00:47:17.599
on the edge of a forest in
South Africa and we told him about our

619
00:47:17.679 --> 00:47:24.760
book and he told us good luck, fellas fear is love that is forgotten

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00:47:24.800 --> 00:47:30.960
itself. Ah, fear is love
that has forgotten itself. So that is

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00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:35.440
my last thought. Fear, What
a gift you are. You and Mark

622
00:47:35.519 --> 00:47:37.360
have created such an important piece of
work. I really apply the work that

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00:47:37.360 --> 00:47:40.280
you're doing as well, and said
organizations it is. It's a light to

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00:47:40.280 --> 00:47:44.199
have you on. I'm grateful you
came into my path and we will at

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00:47:44.239 --> 00:47:46.679
some point continue the conversation. Thank
you for being with us today. Thank

626
00:47:46.719 --> 00:47:51.639
you so much for real honor.
Listeners and viewers. You want to learn

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00:47:51.639 --> 00:47:54.639
more about Coral Botnagger, his book
un Fear, or the work they do

628
00:47:54.719 --> 00:48:00.199
at co Creation Partners, start by
visiting co Creation Partners dot com. Last

629
00:48:00.199 --> 00:48:01.960
week. If you missed the live
show, you know it's catch to be

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00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:07.079
your recorded podcast. We're on the
year with Katherine Metiski of Australia talking about

631
00:48:07.079 --> 00:48:10.920
her book Leading Virtual Teams, Managing
from a Distance during the Coronavirus. Next

632
00:48:10.960 --> 00:48:15.159
week will be on the air with
Donna Cutting, the author of Employees First,

633
00:48:15.280 --> 00:48:17.760
Inspire, engage and focus on the
heart of your organization. So you

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00:48:17.760 --> 00:48:21.199
there, remember that works at least
a third of our life. So let's

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00:48:21.239 --> 00:48:27.000
work on purpose. We hope you've
enjoyed this week's program, be sure to

636
00:48:27.039 --> 00:48:30.280
tune in too. Working on Purpose
featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortez,

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00:48:30.519 --> 00:48:36.679
each week on the Voice America Empowerment
Channel. Together, we'll create a world

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00:48:36.679 --> 00:48:44.199
where business operates conscientiously, leadership inspires
impassioned performance, and employees are fulfilled in

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00:48:44.239 --> 00:48:49.039
work that provides the meaning and purpose
they crave. See you there, Let's

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00:48:49.199 --> 00:48:50.239
work on Purpose.