Elevate Your Team’s Performance with Holacracy

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What's working on purpose anyway? Each
week we ponder the answer to this question.

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People ache for meaning and purpose at
work, to contribute their talents passionately

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and know their lives really matter.
They crave being part of an organization that

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inspires them and helps them grow into
realizing their highest potential. Business can be

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such a force for good in the
world, elevating humanity. In our program,

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we provide guidance and inspiration to help
usher in this world we all want

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Working on purpose. Now Here is
your host, doctor Elise Cortes. Welcome

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back to the Working on Purpose Program. Thanks for tuning in again this week

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on your host, doctor Elease Cortes, join you from West Texas where I'm

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traveling on site for a client delivering
the results and employee engagement survey. And

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by the way, it's very windy
out here in the Texas Panhandle, so

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if you hear a lot of rocking
and rolling, it's the wind outside.

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If you don't know me, management
consultant specializing in meaning and purpose, organizational

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logo therapists, inspirational speaker, social
scientist, and author, you can learn

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more about me and how we can
work together at a Lascortes dot com or

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Gusto dashnow dot com. Let me
thank my partner and sponsor work proud.

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We are a perfect collaboration. Everyone
wants to know they matter and that the

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work they do is meaningful and appreciated. Work Proud is a mobile platform built

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to encourage employees to share stories and
recognize each other's contribution. Work Proud empowers

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hr and business leaders to create company
cultures where all employees are inspired to feel

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proud of their work and proud of
their company. Learn more at workproud dot

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com. With us today is Marco
Bogers. He's an author, coach,

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trainer, and organizational consultant. Originally
a business log graduate, his career spanned

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sales, marketing, productivity training,
organizational and purpose coaching. What has helped

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him in these transformations is to see
tensions as fuel and as life handed and

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material for his writing. He is
the co author of the Dutch best selling

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Getting Teams Done, which in twenty
twenty was set it into English as Getting

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Started with Holocracy, Upgrading your team's
productivity, which is what we'll be talking

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about today. He joined us today
from Amsterdam, the Netherlands, where it

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is currently midnight for him and five
pm for me, Marco, welcome to

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working on purpose and staying up for
the conversation. Yeah, thank you,

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thanks for the invitation. Yeah,
you're so welcome. And you know how

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we found each other because we were
in a common community talking about purpose and

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weighing in on the topic. And
that's how I found you. And when

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I looked at your profile on LinkedIn, I said, I think we should

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have a talk. I don't know
what holocrisy is, so let's start with

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that, if we can. Marco, what is holocracy? And let me

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spell that for our listeners who doesn't
who've never heard this term murder either,

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it's h O L A C R
A c Y holocracy. What is it?

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Marco? Yeah, that's a good
question. I needed to write a

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book about it to answer this question. So it's not like, you know,

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it's not like one answer. You
could look at it several ways.

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You could look at it as an
organizational model, you could look at it

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as a way to become more productive. Actually, one perspective that I take

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lately is that it's a way to
organize around purpose and also, you know,

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linking to the theme of your of
your program, and I think that's

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really for me to core at the
moment. If you want to organize around

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purpose, holocracy is really one of
best ways I have found so far.

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So one of the things that you
say in your book can correct me if

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I'm wrong, because as you know, I read cover to cover and I

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take copious notes. But what I
thought you had said too is that it's

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really a cross between the concept of
getting things done and and Chile. Is

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that right? Yeah, there's also
a way to look at it. Actually

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it's it was inspired, amongst others, by Hile and getting things done,

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and so there's a lot of compare
in between those systems if you look at

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a holocacy and actually, then other
way to look at it is to say

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it's an ed job organization. So
it's if you look at an organization structure,

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which normally that's that's fixed. Actually
holocacy makes that edge job so that

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needs those are becoming moving parts and
it's becoming really dynamic. M That is

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so alluring, And of course you
know I have to ask you, how

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in the world did you come across
this concept in the first place. Yeah,

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yeah, that's a good question.
Actually, So I've done a lot

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of things in my career. And
one of the things that I started after

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going from the corporate corporate site to
to become a independent, I started to

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be a productivity trainer and that was
about ten years ago, and I was

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very inspired by David Allen Getting Things
Done, So I started teaching his methodology

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to teams in companies. UH And
actually I soon found out that there was

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a lot of things beneath personal productivity
that I couldn't touch. By uh,

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I mean, uh, getting things
on works very very well if you do

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it just personally, but if you
do it in a team, there's always

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a lot of things that are around
that. Like one of the questions I

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had was why do people individually can
become very productive, but as a team

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they're actually less productive then they're working
individually, And and that was a question

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I just couldn't answer, and that
kept pondering me for for for some time.

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And then I run into holocracy and
then it was like, wow,

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this is actually what I was looking
for getting things done, but then for

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teams. So that's also what the
what the title of our book, Getting

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Teams Done? Mm hmmm, how
yummy. Well, I was very very

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intrigued by the whole notion as Again, I've never seen this concept before.

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And one of the things that you
say in the book, and I quote

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in essence, holocracy is a way
of running a team or even an entire

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organization in an agile and dynamic way
so that you can speed up on all

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fronts. Can you say more about
that? I think anyone wants to know

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more about that. Yeah, whereas
the speed and when you speed up,

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that's a central thing. What I
see from my experience as a manager in

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a corporate organization is where things how
to say are stock is actually in decision

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making. Especially if you're a manager, you get a lot of in a

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management hiarchy, you get a lot
of decisions. I mean practically it means

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a lot of emails to answer.
When I was a manager, I saw

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that I quickly became the bottleneck.
So because yeah, I have all these

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decisions to make. And what where
holocasy speeds up actually is decision making.

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So that means that decision making is
being distributed to roles, so it's not

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only one person who is actually the
end decision making. Actually all the roles

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in holocacy and people get roles.
It's one of the constructs in holocacy.

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They are the end responsibility. They
have the end responsibility. Actually that's where

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the book stops. So people in
roles, the roles have the end responsibility

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for decision making, so that means
that it's not going all to one person.

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So one of the things I thought
about as I was reading that part

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is I and I really appreciated how
you situated your whole offering about how to

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teach us about a laquercry through the
case study method. The story that you

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told us in the story or in
your book brilliant. It was so accessible.

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So learning about Neil and you know
how he was dealing with Rakesh,

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and you know, poor Rakesh is
coming at this from the old school way

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of you know, command and control, et cetera. So for people like

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that, I'm sure this is entirely
frightening, right And I one of the

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things that I found really interesting,
which I'll get to what kinds of organizations

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are best suited for this in just
a second, But one of the things

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that I found really really interesting is
there are so many things that you do

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in your book that are kind of
upside down from the way people normally think

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about things like this notion of tension. So you say everything starts in holocracy.

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With tension, you say things are
not going the way you want them

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to. With alaocracy, you can
use this tension as fuel for moving forward

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and making things better. It helps
you create extreme clarity within your team.

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I think most people would say,
what you're kidding me. You want to

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go look for tension, So say
more about this magical juice of engine or

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of tension. Please. Yeah,
that's really the core of how to say

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the system and it, and it's
really about redefining what tension actually mean to

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you. Actually I started off seeing
tentions and something to be avoided, something

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I don't want to. I don't
want to. And let me give you

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an example when I worked. I
worked for a Japanese company, and there

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you shouldn't rock the boat. You
shouldn't like create any tensions. Everybody should

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work in a kind of consensus mode. And what happened to me is that

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I got of atensions within myself and
actually I got ill after that. So

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what holocosy does is actually turn that
around. You say, tensions is something

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to be embraced, Tensions is not
something to be hidden or avoided. And

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and actually I have found it quite
liberating to work in m Well, another

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thing that I want to make sure
that we press for our viewers and our

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listeners Marco around this notion of tension
that I think is extremely useful that I

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got from your book, and I
think it just might be your unique way

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of navigating the world. But what
it see, what it occurs for me

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is that you put forth this notion
of tension, and you are essentially telling

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us readers through the story, that
we can become better, we can become

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even more sensitive about understanding the tensions, recognizing them, giving voice to them,

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articulating them. And that's part of
the that's part of the power of

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the individual person, is that right, Yeah, Actually, the core,

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one of the core skills in holocacy
is recognizing tentions within yourself but also a

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thing on them. And let me
get a short definition of tension as we

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use is something the difference between how
things are and how things should be,

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and you see that there's always this
extension between those two points and actually recognizing

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that and seeing that as something to
as an opportunity instead of something to be

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avoided. Now, what I've learned
during the process is to really recognize those

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tensions much more fast in myself and
actually act on that or actually ask help

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or actually process those tensions. And
actually every practice within alocacy is designed to

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process tensions very quickly. Like we
have technical meetings, governance meetings, and

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in those meetings we actually list tensions. We also name them tensions. So

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the word tension is actually have very
well used and defined within the practice.

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So I really want to call out
this idea, Marco, because as you

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say, it's so central to hollocrasy, and again it turns everything on the

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head of how people would normally think
about the word tension, and certainly to

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be able to talk about it and
to get present to it and try to

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process it, if you will.
And so what I think is so great

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about that, especially in the time
when we spent a year in the pandemic

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and people recognize and are rivet on
the notion of well being and mental health.

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To be able to recognize that space
or that difference between where we are

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today and where we want to be
in the future, which produces this dynamic

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sentiment that we can all presence.
I think is so profoundly useful and again

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refreshing, something that I don't think
very many organizations are talking about Actually,

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I of course very much agree on
that, and I think, for instance,

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you could see the current situation with
COVID it's it's a big tension,

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uh, because it's it's something where
we've had the situation as it is now

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and then the same situation as it
could be. There there is still oftentimess

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a big gap, and so reflecting
on that actually brings you out in a

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moves you from a how to say, more of a victim stand to a

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creator sense like you know, okay, so I have this tension. So

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the central question that we're using the
Holocosy practice is then so okay, sounds

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like attention if somebody doesn't recognize itself, sounds like attentions. So what you

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need? And then asking people what
do you need actually brings them from this

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victim like stand to to a creator
stand to to to to actually taking action

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on that. So the question what
you need is actually physical in the practice,

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and if you are around all Locosi
practitioners, you will hear that question

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a lot. It's actually very much
an operational practice to ask that question to

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yourself but also to others. I
like it, Marco, I like it.

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Okay, Well, now let's talk
about what kind of organizations would be

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best suited to use delaucracy. Who
is well suited to use and embrace this

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concept? Yeah, I would say
in the start, i'd said, like,

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you know, you know, theoretically
any organization can do it, but

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in practice I see that where it
tries. Where thrivees are organizations that really

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want to invest in personal developments of
people and are purpose driven. And I

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think purpose driven and holocacy, purpose
driven companies and holocacy author are actually a

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matchmak in heaven, I think because
in holocacy there's no hierarchy of people.

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There's a hiarity of purpose, and
you serve the purpose. You don't serve

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the people. You serve the purpose. But by serving the purpose, you

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serve the people better. And that's
one of the many paradoxes that holocacy has,

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Like by not putting the people central, you serve them better because purpose

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is central and rounds Like that music, it's my ears, I am so

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with you on that, And you
know I'm with you on that. Sounds

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like I'm using my ears and a
great way to go into our first break

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I'm your host, doctorly Sportees.
We've been on the air with Marco Boger's

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a co author of Getting Started with
Holocracy, Upgrading your Team's Productivity. We've

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been talking a bit about what this
concept is, who uses it. After

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the break, we're going to get
into the elements of it and how to

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implement it. Stay with us,
We'll be right back. Doctor Elise Cortes

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is a management consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose and inspirational speaker and author.

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She helps companies visioneer for greater purpose
among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired leadership and

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meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment,
performance, and commitment within the workforce.

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To learn more or to invite Elise
to speak to your organization, please visit

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her at Eleasecortes dot com. Let's
talk about how to get your employees working

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on purpose. This is working on
Purpose with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach

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our program today or open a conversation
with Elise, send an email to a

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lease Alise at Elisecortes dot com.
Now back to working on Purpose. As

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I've watched the bendamiccondanu on we look
for ways to help companies support their employees

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handle this anxiety, stress, depression
and feeling disconnected, while also helping to

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lift and inspire them with ongoing organizational
development. So we now offer a wellbeing

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webinar learning series called Grab your Gusto
Vital well Being from the inside Out.

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If you want to learn more about
it, go to the website at least

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quotes dot com or send me an
email to at least cortest dot com if

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you're just joining the program. My
guest is Marco Bogers and author, coach,

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trainer, and organizational consultant. Over
the last year's his blessing as part

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of his personal purpose became clear to
ignite the healing fire of those who are

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called to lead to uncharted territory.
He joined us today from Amsterdam, the

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Nevlands. I'm your host, doctor
Elise Cortes. Okay, so Marco the

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next bit here and wanted to get
into really going under the hood, if

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you will, of the car of
Holocracy and talk about another central aspect of

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what I can see of this,
and that's roles. The focus of Roles.

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So one of the things you say
in your book and I quote Inhellocracy,

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direction and leadership are distributed so that
everyone is a leader within his or

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her roles, so just one manager
doesn't make all the decisions and provide direction.

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Roles are not designed by management or
HR, but instead created and continuously

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adjusted by the team itself. Sounds
incredible, Yeah, yeah, it is.

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And at the same time, I
cannot imagine otherwise. If you're in

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it, it's like it's like it's
like very yeah, like it's swimming in

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the Yeah, like a fish swimming
in the water of the sea. You

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know, it's it's just it's just
as it is. Let me tell you

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something about how this works. These
roles. So why roles? Why not

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functions? Because functions are the normal
way that companies organize. Now, roles

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are much more flexible. Roles like, for instance, one person can have

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several roles and and there's one role
can be done by several persons, so

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you can see, you can you
can you can be much more flexible in

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how you allocate work in that a
function is set. The other disadvantage of

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a function is that it is not
always current with somewhat the work that somebody

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is actually doing. Like you are
hired like two years ago, chances are

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that the work that you're doing is
very different than what you were hired for.

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And normally functions don't update so often. Now roles update on a weekly

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basis if necessary, and there's and
there's a very distinct mechanism for that,

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and those are governance meetings. Governance
meetings are our meetings that are helped when

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there are changes to roles necessary and
bigger changes to role necessary and for each

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do that amongst themselves. So there's
no there's no h R function the as

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now manager who decides that that the
employees themselves update their roles if necessary,

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and it can be weekly, that
can be monthly. More common is that

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there is a monthly update. Hmm. Well, now let's then distinguish roles

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in the circle, which is again
another really fascinating concept, and you talk

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about you say that it's made up
of roles, which we just talked about,

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So what work needs to be done
and not people and comprised in a

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circle, and in a circle,
the focus is not on the people but

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rather on the work that they do
and the roles they feel. Those roles

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are determined by the circle itself in
regular governments meetings, as you were saying,

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So tell us more about the circle. What is this role of the

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circle. Yeah, well, actually
a circle is nothing else that a bigger

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role. A circle is actually a
collection of roles. So actually visually you

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can see a role expanding to a
circle. So if a roll gets too

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much work. For instance, I
have a role, I have a role,

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and we're in a five person company
and I am the marketing role,

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and then we grow into a twenty
person company, then probably the thing that

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I did myself, my marketing role
will expand it to a marketing circle.

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Like I get like five colleagues who
joined me doing marketing. So a circle

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is nothing else than an expanded role. And h are you You can actually

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see the organization and it's really fun
to see. There's there's a there's an

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online tool which you can see the
the organization actually growing. Uh, it's

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it's like an organism. So it's
not it's not a sixth thing. It's

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not a sixth kind of chart.
It's you can see online growing. It's

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it's it's it's a life. I'm
smiling because I've had another guest in my

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show, doctor Norman Norman, and
he and I talked about his book called

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Dealer Organization it's the same similar and
it talks about the organization living as well,

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but not nearly. We're not talking
about holocracy like you are, but

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the same idea that it's actually living
and you can actually see it breathing and

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growing and when it's growing and being
fulfilled versus decaying. So that's why I

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was smiling, and ladies and gentlemen, those of you that are sitting back,

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going yeah, this concept sounds really
really good for Marco and the Netherlands

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and the Northern Europeans. What I
want you to know is this concept is

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taking across all over the world.
In fact, even here in the United

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States. I have a friend of
mine who is an art engineer, and

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on his board he talks about his
daily stand up meeting. And when I

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came to your part of the bookmarker
that talks about the stand up meeting,

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I reached out to him. I
said, hold on just a second,

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that stand up meeting thing that you're
doing, you guys doing delocracy over there,

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and he said, yes, that
is becoming more and more of a

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thing inside organizations and including the United
States. So listeners, if you're thinking

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to yourself, oh, that's great
for those guys over there, but it

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wouldn't work here in the States.
Keep listening. Actually, all right,

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so helacy originated in the United States. There are some roots in the netherlands

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of sociocricy. But Brian Robertson,
you know, an American actually invented holocracy.

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That's right. I did read that
in your book. That's right.

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I think for a lot of listeners, I think they're thinking to themselves and

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this sounds crazy, but keep listening. There's some amazing things. In fact,

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even let's talk about conflict next.
One of the things that I think

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is really important and right. Every
organization certainly has a chair of conflict.

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And you write the vast majority of
conflicts at work are in fact role conflicts,

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and that you get clarity through roles
by defining exactly what active activities a

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role is accountable for. And it
relies on distributed authority rather than traditional management

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hierarchy. So say more about how
holocracy addresses and maybe alleviates conflict. Yeah,

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actually, you know, she promotes
conflict, and that's one of these,

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but it promotes royal conflicts, not
personal conflicts, and that's really a

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difference. Uh So, attention is
fuel that that's the central tension is fuel

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conflicts. Our role conflicts are actually
good because it provides more few, more

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few into the machine. And it's
difficult to get your head around. But

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let's let me give you an example
from my work career. Uh, my

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last corporate employer where I was actually
I had a big conflict with with one

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of my staff and that's actually the
reason, one of the reasons why I

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left. Now, the strength thing
is that, uh, before I was

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promoted as a manager, we could
work very well together. We went into

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the pub together, we had we
had a kind of a friendship. And

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then I was promoted to her manager, and then we got into a conflict.

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And then afterwards, after I left
the company, actually we met again

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and again we were friends. So
it turned out not to be a personal

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conflict. It turned out to be
a role conflict. And actually that's that

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informs me that a lot of conflicts
that arise in companies actually are not handled

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well as role conflicts. So if
you if you take the role component out

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of it, I think that a
lot of personal so a lot of personal

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conflicts are actually not personal, but
their role conflicts. Hmm. That's so

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encouraging and listeners and viewers. Isn't
that encouraging to give you that the notion

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this is not about you can't stand
somebody's personality or whatever. It's about the

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role and how it conflicts with yours. I think that really opens something.

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One, it opens a way to
address it because it removes the notion that

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it's personal. That's incredible. Yeah, And that's one of the things that

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holocacy makes you conscious about the difference
between person know and role or role and

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soul as we call it. And
that difference makes you you are very conscious

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about it. So sometimes you are
aware that you're speaking from a role,

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that you're acting from a role.
Uh and some most but of course most

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of the time you will be speaking
as a person. But actually in practice

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you also differentiate. Like, for
instance, I would say to you like,

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yeah, we're just having a talk, and then I switch modes and

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then I say, well, listen, from this role, I'd like to

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ask you to take on this project. So it's clear to you in a

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conversation, you know why I'm asking
you to take on this project. It's

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not like, you know, I
don't respect your time or something like that.

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It's just like, you know,
I have this responsibility and I need

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you to do something from responsibility from
my role. Mm hmmmmm. Well,

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let's give our listeners and viewers really
a some even greater walkaways here. And

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I want to talk about the four
steps of implementing helocracy. And so if

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you would take us through just those
four steps you describe in the book,

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I think it's really useful and I
think people would be surprised that there is

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a fair amount of simplicity to this
certainly and understanding it from the outset.

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So the four steps, MARKO.
Yeah, So it's actually to start with

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describing and assigning delicial roles. So
when I come in at a team or

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a company, we just map everything
and then we start up the first governance

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meetings. That's the second step,
so we actually start working with the roles

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and modifying them, and then we
start up technical meetings. That's the sort

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step I would say, and then
and then we start activating all of that

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and then there are practices is for
that. So so that's one way to

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implement it. Actually, Also I
used to start with signing even a constitution

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before we started, because that actually
also rains very much the power shift that

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holocracy does. So it is very
signing a constitution there so there's no playbook

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around it. Signing constitution makes it
very explicit that the former powerholders actually are

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not the powerholders anymore. They they
they they they give their power to a

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set of rules. And that is
actually, yeah, conceptually, very very

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important part of holococy that it's rule
based. Mm hmmm. The other thing

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that I found really interesting in it
just really made so much sense to me,

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Marco, is that you also start
by taking in a considerational list of

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task or activities that each person does
and clustering them into a role that makes

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so much sense. So that so
that imagine this listeners, imagine that if

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you did that. Let's see,
have five people on your team and you

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were to make a list of all
the activities that they do, you might

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actually find that, you know,
so this person does all this, and

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forget what who's doing it, but
make a list of all the activities that

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need to be done to fulfill the
purpose of this circle, and you might

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start to realize that maybe selling over
here normally does this activity, but really

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it's better suited over this, over
this, this role. And I really

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find that notion of of mixing and
marrying different tasks under roles instead of that

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that that rigid definition of function,
as you were saying before, incredibly useful

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and relevant for today. Yeah,
yeah, actually, and it's really about

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making ensure that that the role really
represents the current work that is being done.

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And it doesn't matter actually you know
what person that is. It's really

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organizing around the work and what a
person like does something like that. They

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list a lot of tasks and I
explicitly asked them to uh not not to

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not to group it by person,
but just by by role or by by

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group of work. And then you
can start to see the patterns that arise.

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Mm hmmm. And even imagine this
listeners to the point. And this

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is the great example that Marco and
his co author bring home in the book.

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A very key person on this team
that he's describing, I think it's

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Suzanne, ends up leaving pretty pretty
deep into the project just before the deadline,

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and they absorb all of her,
all of her tasks and activities into

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their respective roles and pull this thing
off not anyway except successfully listles leaders that

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And if that doesn't sound like music
to your ears, I don't know what

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does. So. With that,
let's leave you hanging on the edge and

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go with our last freak. Here. I'm Alis Cortez, your host.

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We've been on the yar with Marco
Bobers. He's the co author of Getting

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Started with Helocracy, Upgrading your Team's
Productivity. We've been talking a bit about

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how to implement it. After the
break, we're to learn what it takes

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is to actually unlearn what you think
you actually know. Stay with us,

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We'll be right back. Doctor Elise
Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning

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00:31:29.079 --> 00:31:33.839
and purpose and inspirational speaker and author. She helps companies visioneer for greater purpose

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00:31:33.839 --> 00:31:41.920
among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired leadership
and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment,

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00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:47.519
performance, and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite Elise

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00:31:47.599 --> 00:31:52.440
to speak to your organization, please
visit her at eliscortes dot com. Let's

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00:31:52.440 --> 00:32:02.440
talk about how to get your employees
working on purpose. This is working on

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00:32:02.519 --> 00:32:07.400
purpose with doctor Elise Cortes. To
reach our program today or open a conversation

387
00:32:07.480 --> 00:32:15.000
with Elise, send an email to
a lease Ali at elisecortes dot com.

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00:32:15.599 --> 00:32:24.319
Now back to working on purpose.
Thanks for staying with us, and welcome

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back to Working on Purpose. I
mentioned in the first break about the Grab

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Your gusta wellbeing podcast learning series.
That content is program adapted from part one

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of my recently published book called Purpose
Ignited, How Inspiring Leaders Ignite Passion and

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00:32:38.039 --> 00:32:42.519
elt Cause, which is now avaiable
on Amazon. And I wrote that book

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to awaken readers to their passion and
purpose and help transform them into inspirational leaders

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00:32:46.279 --> 00:32:51.079
who enligen in the workplace and elevate
the contribution to business for all stakeholders.

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So that's where the content comes from. If you're just joining us. My

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guest is from Amsterdam today. Marco
Boger's an author, coach, trainer and

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organizational consult Originally a business law graduate, his career has spanned sales, marketing,

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00:33:02.839 --> 00:33:07.839
productivity training, organizational and purpose coaching. What has helped him to these

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transformations is to see tensions as fuel
as life handed him material for his writing.

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I'm your host, doctor Lee Cortes. So for this last bit here,

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I really wanted to talk about this
notion that you that you really mentioned

402
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over and over again, the book
MARKO and this notion of having to unlearn

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00:33:23.880 --> 00:33:28.839
what we've been relying on for years
to do work in teams, which I

404
00:33:28.839 --> 00:33:31.480
think is incredibly useful to be able
to open into a new space. And

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So before we get into that which
is going to smack right into the middle

406
00:33:35.799 --> 00:33:38.839
of this, and we sort of
mentioned it earlier, from your experience and

407
00:33:38.880 --> 00:33:44.680
what you know about this, how
do traditional command control, management oriented people

408
00:33:45.039 --> 00:33:47.559
react to holocracy when they heard first
hear about it and think they want to

409
00:33:47.599 --> 00:33:55.680
try it on. Yeah, it
depends of the person. I felt that

410
00:33:55.839 --> 00:34:01.720
it doesn't. It doesn't work to
actually sell the accept to people as to

411
00:34:01.920 --> 00:34:07.799
try to convince it. What I
feel is that the persons who are attracted

412
00:34:07.839 --> 00:34:14.880
to this way of organizing are people
who actually have experienced the downsides of being

413
00:34:15.039 --> 00:34:17.760
what I call a decision bottleneck in
a hierarchy, in a management hierarchy.

414
00:34:19.800 --> 00:34:23.840
So people who know like me that
that you know, in the end,

415
00:34:24.280 --> 00:34:29.840
it doesn't work. It doesn't empower
people, It doesn't grow your organization to

416
00:34:30.920 --> 00:34:37.920
take all the decisions. Further that
I would say, if you're on a

417
00:34:37.960 --> 00:34:43.679
personal development path, like if you've
come through some life challenges, if you

418
00:34:43.800 --> 00:34:47.559
believe in the power of purpose,
then I think if you experience the limits

419
00:34:47.559 --> 00:34:54.360
of your ego, then I think
you will really appreciate all opposiity. H

420
00:34:55.440 --> 00:34:59.559
that was a great opening, Marco. And if that's not enticing listeners,

421
00:34:59.719 --> 00:35:04.039
of gosh, I've learned so much
by by reading this book and do actually

422
00:35:04.760 --> 00:35:08.360
plan to inculcate it into my team
as well. So you've already inspired me,

423
00:35:08.440 --> 00:35:14.920
Marketer. Thank you. Yeah,
okay, you're welcome. Absolutely,

424
00:35:14.920 --> 00:35:17.559
thank you that I found you so. One of the things that you also

425
00:35:17.760 --> 00:35:21.159
say, which I think is quite
interesting, you say, the more you

426
00:35:21.159 --> 00:35:23.559
can let go of the belief that
you must have a solution for every tension,

427
00:35:23.960 --> 00:35:28.559
the better you can be a sensor
for your roles and the organization.

428
00:35:28.800 --> 00:35:37.400
Can you say more about that?
Yeah, it's really about going into this

429
00:35:37.559 --> 00:35:45.119
space of not knowing, like,
yeah, I have attention. Doesn't mean

430
00:35:45.159 --> 00:35:52.639
that you know how to solve it. It actually means that you you try

431
00:35:52.679 --> 00:35:59.920
to. Yeah, you try to
deal with it in a way and just

432
00:36:00.199 --> 00:36:04.400
start with the first step. Like
if somebody brings in attention in a technical

433
00:36:04.440 --> 00:36:07.079
meeting, for instance, or if
I bring attention in a technical meeting,

434
00:36:07.159 --> 00:36:14.440
I often don't know what's the answer, but I trust the system and it's

435
00:36:14.559 --> 00:36:20.840
like, yeah, I'm taking Sometimes
I'm taking a first step, so and

436
00:36:21.119 --> 00:36:24.880
strangely enough, or actually not strangely
enough, there's always come in some kind

437
00:36:24.920 --> 00:36:30.239
of solution where I didn't expect it. Sometimes a solution can be that somebody

438
00:36:30.360 --> 00:36:37.559
just takes an action. Sometimes a
solution can be that it's a governance issue,

439
00:36:37.599 --> 00:36:40.880
like the tension has to do with
that role is not clearly defined.

440
00:36:42.559 --> 00:36:47.039
Sometimes I just need to speak out
and be hurt. That could also be

441
00:36:47.519 --> 00:36:53.599
one way to solve the attention.
So what I really like about this is

442
00:36:53.639 --> 00:37:00.639
that it really induces you to trust
the process and trust that if you speak

443
00:37:00.679 --> 00:37:05.599
out and if you name your attentions
and if you if you dare to bring

444
00:37:05.639 --> 00:37:12.119
them somehow, a solution will appear. And it does mm hmm. So

445
00:37:12.320 --> 00:37:15.000
what I take from the I'm learning
on that is that we have to unlearn

446
00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:17.320
that we don't have to have all
the answers, That we don't have to

447
00:37:17.320 --> 00:37:22.000
come with the solution and the answers. Rather we come with being able to

448
00:37:22.199 --> 00:37:28.960
articulate the tension that we're we're experiencing
and put it out there in a way

449
00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:34.239
to allow others to help us exactly
exactly I mean. One of example is

450
00:37:34.239 --> 00:37:39.239
also there's there's there's a process of
governance. Meeting works around having objections,

451
00:37:39.360 --> 00:37:46.239
having integrating objections. And sometimes people
don't know what they want to propose as

452
00:37:46.440 --> 00:37:52.599
as a proposal. And then one
practice is I promote is that okay,

453
00:37:52.920 --> 00:37:57.000
just just ask people for objections.
So I don't know what to say,

454
00:37:57.039 --> 00:38:00.920
so us just come with objections and
normal setting. That's a very frightening thing

455
00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:06.840
to do, because you ask people
to disapprove of what you are proposing.

456
00:38:07.199 --> 00:38:09.760
But here we turn it around,
we ask people to come up with some

457
00:38:09.840 --> 00:38:15.000
good objections so we can integrate them. That It is just so refreshing on

458
00:38:15.079 --> 00:38:20.639
every level, Marco, every level. And then along that line, you're

459
00:38:20.679 --> 00:38:23.760
welcome. One of the other things
that I also found extremely fascinating about holocracy

460
00:38:24.119 --> 00:38:29.519
is that it doesn't solve every problem. Rather it just services problems that were

461
00:38:29.599 --> 00:38:32.000
already there so that you can deal
with them. So it's not a golden

462
00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:36.400
bullet, but it's an important process. It's important to process the friction.

463
00:38:36.519 --> 00:38:38.719
You say, so, in other
words, it's an illuminating tool. It's

464
00:38:38.719 --> 00:38:45.360
an illumination tool. Yeah, it's
a way of making people more conscious.

465
00:38:45.239 --> 00:38:50.079
Some people refer to it, you
know, more in the spiritual realm.

466
00:38:50.239 --> 00:38:54.840
Some people refer to it as mindfulness
within companies, but it's depends how you

467
00:38:54.840 --> 00:39:06.119
look at it. I see it
as a as a way of having an

468
00:39:06.119 --> 00:39:12.559
early response system, an early warning
system. So because it's so radical transparent,

469
00:39:13.079 --> 00:39:16.199
it's very hard to stay in sleep
or denial mode. I mean,

470
00:39:17.800 --> 00:39:25.880
you can do it. So another
another expression for that is there if there's

471
00:39:25.880 --> 00:39:31.639
only one wrong way to process attention, and that it's not to process it.

472
00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:37.920
So what you just said there in
this notion of consciousness, Mark,

473
00:39:38.119 --> 00:39:42.880
Now I know exactly why I was
so drawn intracted to you because in your

474
00:39:42.920 --> 00:39:46.320
work, because I am very much
on a path where I am out to

475
00:39:46.400 --> 00:39:50.719
elevate my own consciousness and help raise
that in everyone that I work with and

476
00:39:50.800 --> 00:39:53.719
across the world. And now I
realize why I'm so attracted to this concept

477
00:39:53.719 --> 00:39:58.159
because it's about raising consciousness. You
just brought it home for me. Thank

478
00:39:58.199 --> 00:40:00.039
you for that. That's like the
nice pretty boat on the package that you've

479
00:40:00.039 --> 00:40:04.400
already given me as a gift.
So thank you for that. That's just

480
00:40:04.519 --> 00:40:08.559
gives me so much more sure.
Yes, okay, now I want to

481
00:40:08.599 --> 00:40:13.159
get into this notion here, and
this is a little bit advanced for this

482
00:40:13.199 --> 00:40:15.440
conversation. But listeners and viewers bear
with us. There's this notion, this

483
00:40:15.559 --> 00:40:21.880
concept within the blocracy concept of a
lead link, and so that person is

484
00:40:22.320 --> 00:40:25.360
and Marco can clarify their role.
But the lead link is constantly striving to

485
00:40:25.400 --> 00:40:30.079
make herself redundant by enabling the circle
to work autonomously from their roles. That

486
00:40:30.159 --> 00:40:35.239
sounds amazing to me. It's more
of a process of unlearning than of learning,

487
00:40:35.519 --> 00:40:38.360
especially when it comes to a manager's
tendency to take care of her people

488
00:40:38.639 --> 00:40:43.639
and to motivate and manage those who
are now self managing. So the lead

489
00:40:43.679 --> 00:40:45.679
link therefore plays a key role,
for better or for worse, in the

490
00:40:45.719 --> 00:40:58.159
transformation from conventional to distributed leadership.
Yeah, so slowly the former manager moves

491
00:40:58.159 --> 00:41:02.719
into the lead link role. That's
with you, and that is actually a

492
00:41:02.719 --> 00:41:13.519
crucial process. And actually one of
the other ways that holocacy, well purposes

493
00:41:13.519 --> 00:41:17.079
of holocacy is to break the parents
child dynamics that you see at play in

494
00:41:17.119 --> 00:41:23.000
most organizations. Uh. You know, as a manager, you are conditioned

495
00:41:23.039 --> 00:41:27.199
as a human. You know,
the first organization that you were ever in

496
00:41:27.440 --> 00:41:31.039
was your family, and there you
come into the child parent dynamics and you

497
00:41:31.119 --> 00:41:37.280
take that into the corporate life.
Unconsciously, of course everybody does. So

498
00:41:38.280 --> 00:41:43.519
you see that at play at employees
like asking the manager, can you give

499
00:41:43.519 --> 00:41:45.679
me the mission to do this?
Can you give me the mission to do

500
00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:51.039
that? In holocracy, Actually that's
not a good practice as a as a

501
00:41:51.159 --> 00:41:57.280
lead link. You have to learn
to say, well, I don't I

502
00:41:58.079 --> 00:42:00.719
you can decide by yourself. You
know, you don't need a mission to

503
00:42:00.760 --> 00:42:06.039
do anything. So what do you
think you should do from your role?

504
00:42:06.360 --> 00:42:08.880
Which role is feeling attention? So
you help them, you coach them to

505
00:42:08.960 --> 00:42:14.519
make your own decisions. And that's
a big that's a big change, especially

506
00:42:15.159 --> 00:42:21.199
from both sides, from employees and
managers. And what I love about that,

507
00:42:21.239 --> 00:42:24.800
what allures me about that is that
it's empowering and again it removes the

508
00:42:24.920 --> 00:42:29.480
mother may I, father may I
sort of whole idea that you were describing

509
00:42:29.559 --> 00:42:32.920
before. And I think that's incredible. And so what I know too about

510
00:42:34.440 --> 00:42:37.239
employee motivation, doing employee engagement work
and doing purpose work is that when when

511
00:42:37.239 --> 00:42:45.960
people feel competent and empowered and responsible
for and trusted to make decisions, their

512
00:42:45.079 --> 00:42:50.679
their motivation and their their commitment increases. So this makes complete sense. Why

513
00:42:50.719 --> 00:42:54.280
this works so well to me?
Yeah, it speaks to you know,

514
00:42:54.320 --> 00:43:02.760
autonomy, mastery, Those are the
things that are very important. And then

515
00:43:02.800 --> 00:43:07.119
another thing that we have to talk
about here that surfaced in the reading of

516
00:43:07.159 --> 00:43:12.079
your book that is so timely in
a whole year plus of the Corona nineteen

517
00:43:12.679 --> 00:43:16.239
Corona virus pandemic, is this notion
that when you look at this from the

518
00:43:16.239 --> 00:43:21.840
outside, if you're just beginning to
start to unpeel holocracy, it appears to

519
00:43:21.840 --> 00:43:25.440
be so impersonal, but in reality
it creates more space for personal connection,

520
00:43:25.800 --> 00:43:30.360
not less. Would you share more
about your perspective on that? You and

521
00:43:30.400 --> 00:43:32.239
I had a short exchange about that
via email, But would you share more

522
00:43:32.239 --> 00:43:39.440
about your perspective on that? Why
is that so? Yeah? Actually,

523
00:43:39.480 --> 00:43:45.519
that's that's one of the paradoxes.
So roles are not personal, so circles

524
00:43:45.519 --> 00:43:53.000
are not personal. So the first
holocracy enables you to differentiate work into roles,

525
00:43:53.360 --> 00:43:59.280
and that's an impersonal process. But
after that it starts to integrate the

526
00:43:59.320 --> 00:44:05.920
purpose and personal. So it actually
moves you from from a duality like personal

527
00:44:06.960 --> 00:44:12.039
versus uh not personal, which which
are two things, into what I would

528
00:44:12.039 --> 00:44:17.400
call a polarity. You start to
navigate these two and actually you integrate them

529
00:44:17.440 --> 00:44:27.039
into yourself. M That is powerful
too. And uh and actually I think

530
00:44:27.119 --> 00:44:35.559
that is where the personal development side
of it comes into play. Like you

531
00:44:35.599 --> 00:44:38.639
know, I would say stage one
is if you ask the question who am

532
00:44:38.639 --> 00:44:43.679
I? The people you know used
to say I am a consultant or I

533
00:44:43.719 --> 00:44:49.159
am a trainer. Now the question
who am I? You're not your roles

534
00:44:49.639 --> 00:44:52.800
because you you fulfilled role, So
that's not just just one of part of

535
00:44:52.800 --> 00:44:59.159
the question. So it becomes important
to answer the question, so not only

536
00:44:59.239 --> 00:45:01.760
who am I, so what is
my purpose? Why am I serving these

537
00:45:01.880 --> 00:45:07.400
roles? And why am I surfing
this organization? So DEPTHLOP becomes much more

538
00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:12.800
at the forefront. And because you've
done the work of different differentiating role,

539
00:45:13.119 --> 00:45:17.639
that becomes space for your personal development
and your purpose, where normally that's all

540
00:45:19.119 --> 00:45:22.920
mashed up in organizations. You know, you don't see that because it's too

541
00:45:23.000 --> 00:45:29.559
vague. Actually, okay, and
now we get to where we promised this

542
00:45:29.639 --> 00:45:34.599
at the beginning, that that hellocracy
does allow and enable personal development and an

543
00:45:34.639 --> 00:45:38.280
opportunity to reach an express purpose.
Now you've just brought it home for us,

544
00:45:38.320 --> 00:45:42.360
and so say a little bit more
if you would just maybe another few

545
00:45:42.400 --> 00:45:46.599
sentences about how people can better why
this creates a space for them to be

546
00:45:46.679 --> 00:45:52.400
able to personally develop on an otherwise, in a more traditional space they couldn't.

547
00:45:52.440 --> 00:46:00.280
Maybe, Yeah, because the fact
that people are actually decision makers in

548
00:46:00.320 --> 00:46:08.079
their roles makes that they should become
better in decision making and know why they

549
00:46:08.119 --> 00:46:12.840
are doing the things that they're doing. Now, the mechanism of purpose that

550
00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:20.000
I don't need to explain to you
is actually the best way of having at

551
00:46:20.119 --> 00:46:27.639
making decisions in that of of knowing
why you do things. And that's why

552
00:46:27.719 --> 00:46:31.800
I'm not working you know, when
I'm now implementing holocacy. Actually I try

553
00:46:31.840 --> 00:46:37.079
to also start with purpose. I
start to do, you know, get

554
00:46:37.119 --> 00:46:43.719
people on the purpose train even before
they start to work with holocesy sometimes,

555
00:46:43.840 --> 00:46:49.000
because I think that's very important that
if people really choose why they work for

556
00:46:49.039 --> 00:46:53.679
an organization from their personal motivation,
personal purpose, they will be much more

557
00:46:54.239 --> 00:46:59.920
better of making decisions in any roles
that they can, and they will be

558
00:47:00.039 --> 00:47:05.119
also to choose the roles that fit
them. They just not accept any role

559
00:47:05.239 --> 00:47:08.000
that they should be doing, but
they choose the organization. They choose the

560
00:47:08.079 --> 00:47:14.079
role really consciously. Oh that sounds
good to me. Oh, Marco,

561
00:47:14.079 --> 00:47:16.719
what, I'm so glad to ask
that question now here. We are already

562
00:47:16.719 --> 00:47:20.239
at dindon of the show already,
we just have just a little bit of

563
00:47:20.239 --> 00:47:22.000
time left. And you know,
the show is listening to people across the

564
00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:27.320
globe who want to be able to
help create workplaces where people thrive, where

565
00:47:27.400 --> 00:47:30.400
inspirational leaders help bring out their best
and business is done for its highest cost.

566
00:47:31.079 --> 00:47:36.239
What would you like to leave our
listeners with today? Yeah, I

567
00:47:36.599 --> 00:47:40.599
had a bit of thought about that. Yeah, and considering the times that

568
00:47:40.639 --> 00:47:45.360
we are living in, actually,
I think, you know, I am

569
00:47:45.400 --> 00:47:52.519
extremely challenged by the current situation also
with COVID, and I think as a

570
00:47:52.559 --> 00:47:59.159
species now we're on a crossroads.
We have tremendous power, and I think

571
00:47:59.440 --> 00:48:06.840
organization should use that force and become
a force to use that our wisely.

572
00:48:07.800 --> 00:48:12.039
So I think we have the responsibility
to make that happen. In other words,

573
00:48:12.519 --> 00:48:15.840
really think about how we can make
our organizations better ancestors. I love

574
00:48:15.880 --> 00:48:20.159
the idea of being a better ancestor. In Holland, we used to be

575
00:48:20.280 --> 00:48:24.840
very, very proud of our corporate
ancestors. We created actually the first multi

576
00:48:24.920 --> 00:48:29.199
national in the world. We created
the first stock exchange in the world.

577
00:48:30.079 --> 00:48:35.239
And now we see that our wealth
from the seventeenth century was partly built up

578
00:48:35.320 --> 00:48:39.599
in human slave trade. And I
would say, let us let us not

579
00:48:39.719 --> 00:48:45.519
make that same mistake again. What
a beautiful way to finish Marco. I'm

580
00:48:45.519 --> 00:48:47.840
s so glad I found you.
I'm so happy to share with my listeners

581
00:48:47.840 --> 00:48:52.159
across the globe. Thank you for
being such a beautiful soul helping us elevate

582
00:48:52.159 --> 00:48:57.039
our consciousness with collocrasy. Great to
have you, Thank you, thank you,

583
00:48:57.159 --> 00:49:00.280
thanks for the invitation and I loved
it, loved it. I'm so

584
00:49:00.320 --> 00:49:04.239
glad listeners, viewers. If you
want to learn more about Marco Boger's Holocracy

585
00:49:04.360 --> 00:49:08.599
or his book on Holocracy, start
by visiting his website which is workinflow dot

586
00:49:08.760 --> 00:49:14.280
nl. And thanks again for our
partnering sponsor work Proud, which helps companies

587
00:49:14.280 --> 00:49:16.920
build a platform where your workforce receives
meaningful feedback and thanks for their work from

588
00:49:16.960 --> 00:49:21.360
people across your company. Last week, you missed the live show You Can

589
00:49:21.400 --> 00:49:23.920
Catch a Baby recorded podcast We are
on there with doctor Claudia Binie, founder

590
00:49:23.960 --> 00:49:29.159
of the House of Shine, talking
about this incredible nonprofit and curriculum that helps

591
00:49:29.159 --> 00:49:34.079
people from ages five to ninety five
discover what makes them shine. Next week,

592
00:49:34.079 --> 00:49:37.559
we'll be on the air with Gabriel
Kekscan of Golden Eagle Executive Coaching and

593
00:49:37.719 --> 00:49:42.719
Alive on Purpose Coaching, talking about
how he works specifically with men to help

594
00:49:42.760 --> 00:49:45.719
them discover and live their purpose.
See you there, Remember that were work

595
00:49:45.760 --> 00:49:47.199
is at least or third of our
lives, So let's work on purpose.

596
00:49:52.239 --> 00:49:57.079
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to tune in to Working

597
00:49:57.119 --> 00:50:00.760
on Purpose featuring your host, Doctor
Release courts As each week on the Voice

598
00:50:00.800 --> 00:50:07.880
America Empowerment Channel. Together, we'll
create a world where business operates conscientiously,

599
00:50:07.559 --> 00:50:14.679
leadership inspires impassioned performance, and employees
are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning

600
00:50:14.719 --> 00:50:19.280
and purpose they crave. See you
there, Let's work on Purpose.