Elevate Your Team’s Performance with Holacracy

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What's working on purpose anyway? Each
week we ponder the answer to this question.

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People ache for meaning and purpose at
work, to contribute their talents passionately

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and know their lives really matter.
They crave being part of an organization that

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inspires them and helps them grow into
realizing their highest potential. Business can be

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such a force for good in the
world, elevating humanity. In our program,

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we provide guidance and inspiration to help
usher in this world we all want

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Working on purpose. Now Here is
your host, Doctor Elise Cortez. Welcome

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back to the Working on Purpose Program. Thanks for tuning in again this week

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on your host, doctor Elise Cortez, joining you from West Texas where I'm

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traveling on site for a client delivering
the results and employe engagement survey. And

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by the way, it's very windy
out here in the Texas Panhandle, so

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if you hear a lot of rocking
and rolling, it's the wind outside.

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If you don't know me, management
consultant specializing in meaning and purpose, organizational

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logo therapists, inspirational speaker, social
scientist, and author, you can learn

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more about me and how we can
work together at at least Cortez dot com

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or Gusto Dashnow dot com. Let
me think, my partner and sponsor,

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we're proud. We are a perfect
collaboration. Everyone wants to know they matter

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and that the work they do is
meaningful and appreciated. Work Proud is a

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mobile platform built to encourage employees to
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Work Proud empowers hr and business leaders
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inspired to feel proud of their work
and proud of their company. Learn more

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at work proud dot com. With
us today is Marco Bogers. He's an

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author, coach, trainer, and
organizational consultant. Originally a business law graduate,

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his careers spanned sales, marketing,
productivity training, organizational and purpose coaching.

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What has helped him in these transformations
is to see tensions as fuel and

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as life hand into material for his
writing. He is the co author of

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the Dutch best selling Getting Teams Done, which in twenty twenty was setting into

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English as getting started with holocrisy,
upgrading your team's productivity, which is what

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we'll be talking about today. He
joined us today from Amsterdam, the Netherlands,

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where it is currently midnight for him
and five pm for me. Marco,

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welcome to working on purpose and staying
up for the conversation. Yeah,

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thank you, thanks for the invitation. Yeah, you're so welcome. And

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you know how we found each other
because we were in a common community talking

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about purpose and weighing in on the
topic. And that's how I found you.

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And when I looked at your profile
on LinkedIn, I said, I

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think we should have a talk.
I don't know what holocrisy is, so

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let's start with that, if we
can. Marco, what is holocrisy?

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And let me spell that for our
listeners who doesn't who've never heard the ster

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murder either, it's h O L
A C R A c Y holocrisy.

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What is it? Marco? Yeah, that's a good question. I needed

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to write a book about it to
outter this question. So it's not like,

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you know, it's not like one
answer. You could look at it

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several ways. You could look at
it as an organizational model. You could

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look at it as a way to
become more productive. Actually, one perspective

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that I take lately is that it's
a way to organize around purpose and also,

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you know, linking to the theme
of your of your program, and

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I think that's really for me to
care at the moment. If you want

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to organize around purpose, holocracy is
really one of the best ways I have

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found so far. So one of
the things that you say in your booking

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correct me if I'm wrong, because
as you know, I read cover to

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cover and I take copious notes.
But what I thought you had said too

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is that it's really a cross between
the concept of getting things done and agile.

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Is that right? Yeah, there's
also a way to look at it.

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Actually, it's it's it was inspired, amongst others by agile and getting

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things done, So there's a lot
of compared us in between those systems if

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you look at holocacy, And actually
another way to look at it is to

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say it's edge organization. So it's
if you look at an organization structure,

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which normally that's that's fixed. Actually
holocacy makes that edge out, so that

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needs those are becoming moving parts and
it's becoming really dynamic. M That is

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so allowing, And of course,
you know I have to ask you,

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how in the world did you come
across this concept in the first place.

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Yeah, yeah, that's a good
question. Actually, So I've done a

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lot of things in my career,
and one of the things that I started

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after going from the corporate corporate site
to to become a independent I thought it

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to be a productivity trainer, and
that was about ten years ago, and

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I was very inspired by David Allen
Getting Things Done. So I started teaching

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his methodology to teams in companies,
and actually I soon found out that there

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was a lot of things beneath personal
productivity that I couldn't touch by I mean,

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getting this one works very very well
if you do it just personally,

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but if you do it in a
team, there's always a lot of things

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that are around that. Like one
of the questions I had was why do

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people individually can become very productive,
but as a team they're actually less productive

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than they're working individually. And that
was a question I just couldn't answer,

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and that kept pondering me for some
time. And then I run into holocracy

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and then it was like, wow, this is actually what I was looking

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for getting things done, but then
for teams. But that's also what the

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what's the title of our book,
Getting Teams Done? How yummy? Well,

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I was very very intrigued by the
whole notion as again, I've never

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seen this concept before. And one
of the things that you say in the

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book, and I quote in essence, holocracy is a way of running a

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team or even an entire organization in
an agile and dynamic way so that you

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can speed up on all fronts.
Can you say more about that? I

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think anyone wants to know more about
that. Yeah, where is the speed

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when you speed up? That's a
central thing. What I see from my

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experience as a manager in a corporate
organization is where things, how to say,

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our stock is actually in decision making. Especially if you're a manager,

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you get a lot of in a
management hierarchy, you get a lot of

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decisions. I mean practically it means
a lot of emails to answer. When

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I was a manager, I saw
that I quickly became the bubbleneck. So

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because yeah, I have all these
decisions to make. And what where holocacy

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speaks up actually is decision making sort
of means that decision making is being distributed

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to roles, so it's not only
one person who is actually the end decision

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making. Actually all the roles in
holocracy, and people get roles. It's

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one of the constructs in holocacy.
They are the end responsibility. They have

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the end responsibility. Actually that's why
the box stops, so people in roles.

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The roles have the end responsibility for
decision making sort of means that it's

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not going all to one person.
So one of the things I thought about

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is I was reading that part is
I, and I really appreciated how you

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situated your whole offering about how to
teach us about alacricy through the case study

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method. The story that you told
us in the story or in your book

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brilliant. It was so accessible and
so learning about Neil and you know how

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he was dealing with Raksh and you
know, poor Rakesh is coming at this

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from the old school way of command
and control, et cetera. So for

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people like that, I'm sure this
is entirely frightening, right. And I

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one of the things that I found
really interesting, which I'll get to what

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kinds of organizations are best suited for
us in just a second, But one

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of the things that I found really
really interesting is there are so many things

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that you do in your book that
are kind of upside down from the way

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people normally think about things like this
notion of tension, So you say everything

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starts in holocricy. With tension,
you say things are not going the way

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you want them to. With holocricy, you can use this tension as fuel

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for moving forward and making things better. It helps you create extreme clarity within

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your team. I think most people
would say, what you're kidding me?

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You want to go look for tension, So say more about this magical use

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of engine or of tension. Please. Yeah. That's really the core of

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how to say the system and it
and it's really about read defining what tension

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actually means to you. Actually I
started off seeing tensions and something to be

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avoided, something I don't want to. I don't want to. And let

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me give you an example when I
worked. I worked for a Japanese company,

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and there you shouldn't rock the boat. You shouldn't like create any tensions.

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Everybody should work in a kind of
consensus mode. And what happened to

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me is that I got all the
tensions within myself and actually I got ill

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after that. So what holocacy does
is actually turn it around. You say,

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tensions is something to be embraced,
Tensions is not something to be hidden

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or avoided, and and Actually,
I have found it quite liberating to working

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well. Another thing that I want
to make sure that we presence for our

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viewers and our listeners Marco around this
notion of tension that I think is extremely

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useful that I got from your book, and I think it just might be

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your unique way of navigating the world. But what it what it occurs for

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me is that you put form this
notion of tension and you are essentially telling

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us readers through the story, that
we can become better, we can become

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even more sensitive about understanding the tensions, recognizing them, giving voice to them,

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articulating them. And that's the that's
part of the power of the individual

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person, is that, right?
Yeah? Actually, the core one of

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the core skills in holocacy is recognizing
tensions within yourself but also on them.

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And let me a short definition of
tension, as we use is something the

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difference between how things are and how
things should be, and you see there's

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always this tension between those two points
and actually recognizing that and seeing that as

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something to as an opportunity instead of
something to be avoided. Now, what

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I've learned during the process is to
really recognize extensions much more fast in myself

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and actually act on that, or
actually ask help, or actually process those

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tensions. And actually every practice within
alocracy is designed to process tensions very quickly.

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Like we have technical meetings, governance
meetings, and in those meetings we

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actually list tensions. We also name
them tensions. So the word tension is

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actually very well used and defined within
the practice. So I want to,

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I really want to call out this
idea, Marco, because as you say,

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it's so central to holocricy, and
again it turns everything on the head

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of how people would normally think about
the word tension, and certainly to be

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able to talk about it, to
get present to it and try to process

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it, if you will. And
so what I think is so great about

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that, especially in the time when
we spent a year in the pandemic and

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people recognize and are rivet on their
notion of well being and mental mental health.

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To be able to recognize that space
or that difference between where we are

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today and where we want to be
in the future, which produces this dynamic

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sentiment that we can all presence.
I think it is so profoundly useful and

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again refreshing, something that I don't
think very many organizations are talking about m

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Yeah, actually, I of course
tell you much agree on that. And

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I think, for instance, you
could see the current situation with COVID.

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It's it's a big tension because it's
it's something where we've the situation at this

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now and then the same situation as
it could be there there is still oftentimes

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it's a big gap, and so
reflecting on that actually brings you out in

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a moves you from a how to
say, more of a system stand to

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a creator's sense, like you know, okay, so I have this stension.

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So the central question that we're using
the Holocaushy practice is then so okay,

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sounds like attension if somebody doesn't recognize
itself, sounds like attensition. So

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what you need and then asking people
what do you need actually brings them from

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this system like stands to to a
creators stands to to to to actually taking

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action on that. So sort of
question what you need is actually physical in

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the practice, and if you are
around holofership practitioners, you will hear that

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question a lot. It's actually very
much an operational practice to ask that question

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to yourself but also to others.
I like it. Marco I like it.

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Okay, Well, now let's talk
about what kind of organizations would be

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best suited to use holocracy. Who
is well suited to use and embrace this

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concept? Yeah, I would say
in the start, i'd said, like,

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you know, you know, theoretically
any organization can do it, but

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in practice, I see that where
it tries, where it thrives are organizations

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that really want to insist in personal
development of people and are purpose driven.

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And I think purpose driven and holocacy, purpose driven companies and holocacy author are

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actually imagine making the heaven. I
think because in holocacy there's no hierarchy of

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people. There's a hiarity of purpose, and you serve the purpose. You

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don't serve the people. You serve
the purpose. But by serving the purpose,

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you serve the people better. And
that's one of the many paradoxes that

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holocacy has. By not putting the
people central, you serve them better because

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purpose is central. And sounds like
music's my ears. I am so with

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you on that, and you know
I'm with you on that. Sounds like

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I'm using my ears and a great
way to go into our first break.

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I'm your home stuctor, releast Cortez. We've been on the air with Marco

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Boger's a co author of Getting Started
with Holocricy, Upgrading your Team's Productivity.

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We've been talking a bit about what
this concept is, who uses it.

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After the break, we're going to
get into the elements of it and how

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to implement it. Stay with us, We'll be right back. Doctor Release

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Cortez is a management consultant specializing in
meaning and purpose and inspirational speaker and author.

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She helps companies visioneer for greater purpose
among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired leadership

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and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and commitment within the workforce.

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To learn more or to invite a
lease to speak to your organization,

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please visit her at Eleise Cortez dot
com. Let's talk about how to get

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your employees working on purpose. This
is working on Purpose with doctor Release Cortez.

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To reach our program today or open
a conversation with Elise, send an

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email to Elise ali Se at Elise
Cortez dot com. Now back to working

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on Purpose. As I've watched the
pandemic continue on, we look for ways

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to help companies support their employees handle
this anxiety, stress, depression, and

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feeling disconnected while also helping to lift
and inspire them with ongoing organizational development.

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So we now offer a well being
webinar learning series called Grab your Gusto Vital

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well Being from the inside Out.
If you want to learn more about it,

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go to the website at least coorte
dot com or send me an email

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to at least coorte dot com if
you're just joining the program. My guest

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is Marco Bogers and author, coach, trainer and organizational consultant or the last

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year's his blessing as part of his
personal purpose became clear to ignite the healing

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fire of those who are called to
lead to uncharted territory. He joins it

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today from Amsterdam, the Netherlands.
I'm your host, doctor Las Cortes.

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Okay, so Marco the next bit
here and wanted to get into really going

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under the hood, if you will, of the car of holocracy and talk

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about another central aspect of what I
can see of this, and that's roles.

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To focus the roles. So one
of the things you say in your

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book and I quote in hilocrisy,
direction and leadership are distributed so that everyone

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is a leader within his or her
roles, so just one manager doesn't make

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all the decisions and provide direction.
Roles are not designed by management or HR,

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but instead created and continuously adjusted by
the team itself. Sounds incredible,

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Yeah, yeah, it is.
And at the same time, I cannot

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imagine otherwise. If you're in it, it's like it's like it's like very

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yeah, like it's swimming in in
Yeah, like a fish swimming in the

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water of the sea. You know, it's it's just it's just as it

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is. Let me tell you something
about how this works. These roles.

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So why roles? Why not functions
because functions are the normal way that companies

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organize. Now, roles are much
more flexible roles like, for instance,

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one person can have several roles and
and there's one role can be done by

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several persons, so you can see, you can you can you can be

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much more flexible in how you allocate
work in that a function is set.

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The other disadvantage of a function is
that it is not always current with some

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what the work that somebody is actually
doing. Like you are hired like two

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years ago, chances are that the
work that you're doing is very different than

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what you are hired for it and
normally functions don't update so often. This

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now roles update on a weekly basis
if necessary, and there's and there's a

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very distinct mechanism for that, and
those are governance meetings. Governance meetings are

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our meetings that are held when there
are changes to roles necessary and Baker changes

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to role necessary and for you do
that amongst themselves. So there's no there's

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no age R function. There's now
manager who decides that the employees themselves update

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their roles if necessary, and it
can be weekly, that can be monthly.

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More commonly is that there is a
monthly update. M Well, now,

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let's then distinguished roles in the circle, which is again another really fascinating

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concept, and you talk about you
say that it's made up of roles,

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which we just talked about what so
what work means to be done not people

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and comprised in a circle. And
in a circle the focus is not on

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the people but rather on the work
that they do and the roles they feel.

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Those roles are determined by the circle
itself in regular governments meetings that you

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were saying, So tell us more
about the circle. What is this role

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of the circle. Yeah, well, actually a circle is nothing else than

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a bigger role. A circle is
actually a collection of roles. So actually

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visually you can see a role expanding
to a circle. So if a role

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gets much work. For instance,
I have have a role. I have

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a role, and we're in a
five person company and I am the marketing

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role, and then we grow into
a twenty person company, then probably the

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thing that I did myself, my
marketing role will expand it to a marketing

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circle. Like I get like five
colleagues who joined me doing marketing. So

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a circle is nothing else then an
expanded role. And are you are?

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You can actually see the organization and
it's really fun to see. There's there's

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a there's an online tool which you
can see the the organization actually growing.

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It's like an organism. So it's
not it's not a sixth thing. It's

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not a sixth kind of chart.
It's you can see online growing. It's

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it's it's it's alive. I'm smiling
because I've had another guest on my show,

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Doctor Norman, and he and I
talked about his book called Dealer Organization.

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It's the same similar who talks about
the organization living as well, but

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not nearly. We're not talking about
holocricy like you are, but the same

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idea that it's actually living and you
can actually see it breathing and growing and

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when it's growing and being fulfilled versus
decaying. So that's why I was smiling,

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and ladies and gentlemen, those of
you that are sitting back, going

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yeah, this concept sounds really really
good for Marco in the Netherlands and the

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Northern Europeans. What I want you
to know is this concept is taking across

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all over the world. In fact, even here in the United States.

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I have a friend of mine who
is an art engineer, and on his

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board he talks about his daily stand
up meeting. And when I came to

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your part of the bookmarker that talks
about the stand up meeting, I reached

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out to him and I said,
hold on just a second, that stand

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up meeting thing that you're doing,
you guys do an ilocricy over there,

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And he said, yes, that
is becoming more and more of a thing

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inside organizations and including the United States. So listener, as if you're thinking

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to yourself, oh, that's great
for those guys over there, but it

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wouldn't work here in the States.
Keep listening. Actually, all right,

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so originated in the United States.
There are some roots in the Netherlands of

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sociocolcy. But Brian Robertson, you
know in American actually invented holocracy. That's

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right. I did read that in
your book. That's right. I think

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for a lot of listeners, I
think they're thinking to themselves and the sounds

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crazy, But keep listening. There's
some amazing things. In fact, even

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let's talk about conflict next. One
of the things that I think is really

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important and right, every organization,
it certainly has a chair of conflict,

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and you right, the vast majority
of conflicts at work are in fact role

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conflicts, and that you get clarity
through roles by defining exactly what active activities

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are roles accountable for. And it
relies on distributed authority rather than traditional management

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hierarchy. So say more about how
holocracy addresses and maybe alleviates conflict. Yeah,

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actually, you know, Hollok,
she promotes conflict, and that's one

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of these, but it promotes royal
conflicts, not personal conflicts. And that's

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really a difference. So at tension
is fuel, that's the central tension is

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feel. Conflicts are royal. Conflicts
are actually good because it provides more fuel,

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more feel into the machine. And
it's just difficult to get your head

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around. But let's let me give
you an example from my work career.

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My last corporate employer where I was
actually I had a big conflict with one

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of my staff and that's actually the
reason, one of the reasons why I

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left. Now, the strength thing
is that before I was promoted as a

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manager, we could work very well
together. We went into the pub together,

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we had we had a kind of
a friendship. And then I was

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promoted to her manager, and then
we got into a conflict. And then

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afterwards, after I left the company, actually we met again and again we

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were friends. So it turned out
not to be a personal conflict. It

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turned out to be a row conflict. And actually that that informs me that

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a lot of conflicts that arise in
companies actually are not handled well as row

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conflicts. So if you if you
take the row component out of it,

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I think that a lot of personal
a lot of personal conflicts are actually not

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personal, but they're role conflicts.
M that's so encouraging and listeners and viewers

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isn't that encouraging to give you that
the notions this is not about you can't

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stand somebody's personality whatever, it's about
the role and how it conflicts with yours.

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I think that really opens something.
One, it opens a way to

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address it because it removes the notion
that it's personal. That's incredible. Yeah,

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And that's one of the things that
holocusy makes you conscious about the difference

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between personal row and role or role
and souls as we call it. And

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and that difference makes you you are
very conscious about it. So sometimes you

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are aware that you're speaking from a
role, that you're acting from a role,

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and some and most part of course, most of the time you will

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be speaking as a person. But
actually in practice you also differentiate. Like

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for instance, I would say to
you like, yeah, we're just having

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a talk, and then I switch
modes and then I said, well,

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listen, from this role, I'd
like to ask you to take on this

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project. So it's clear to you
in a conversation, you know why I'm

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asking you to take on this project. It's not like you know, I

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don't respect your time or something like
that. It's just like, you know,

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I have this responsibility and I need
you to do something from responsibility from

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my role. Well, let's give
our listeners and viewers really some even greater

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walkaways here. And I want to
talk about the four steps of implementing hilocricy.

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And so if you would take us
through just those four steps you describe

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in the book, I think it's
really useful and I think people would be

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surprised that there is a fair amount
of simplicity to this certainly and understanding it

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from the outset. So the four
steps, MARKO. Yeah, So it's

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actually just start with describing and assigning
initial roles. So when I come in

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at a team or a company,
we just met everything, and then we

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start up the first governance meetings,
like that's the second step, so we

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actually start working with the roles and
modifying them, and then we start up

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technical meetings just a third step,
I would say, and then we and

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then we start activating all of that
and then there are practices is for that.

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So so that's one way to implement
it. Actually, Also I used

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to start with signing even a constitution
before we started, because that actually also

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brans very much the power shift that
holocacy does, so it is very signing

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a constitution, there is there's no
playbook around it. Signing a constitution makes

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necessarily explicit that the former power holders
actually are not the power holders anymore day

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they they they give their power to
a set of rules. And that is

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actually, yeah, conceptually, very
very important part of holocosy. That's it's

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rule based. M The other thing
that I found really interesting and it just

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really made so much sense to me, Marco as that you also start by

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taking in a considerational list of task
or activities that each person does and clustering

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them into a role. That made
so much sense. So that so that

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imagine this listeners, imagine that if
you did that. Let's see five people

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on your team, and you were
to make a list of all the activities

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that they do, you might actually
find that, you know, so this

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person does always they forget what who's
doing it, but make a list of

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all the activities that need to be
done to fulfill the purpose of this circle,

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and you might start to realize that
maybe selling over here normally does this

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activity, but really it's better suited
over over this role. And I really

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find that notion and of mixing and
marrying different tasks under roles instead of that

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that that rigid definition of function,
as you were saying before, incredibly useful

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and relevant for today. Yeah,
yeah, actually, and it's really about

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make ensure that that the role really
represents the current work that is being done

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and it doesn't mature. Actually,
you know what person that is. It's

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really organizing around the work and what
a person likes does something like that.

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They list a lot of tasks and
I explicitly asked them to not to not

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to group it by person, but
just by by role or by by group

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of work, and then you can
start to see the patterns that arise.

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Mm hmm. And even imagine this
listener is to the point. And this

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is the great example that Marco and
his co author bring home in the book.

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A very key person on this team
that he's describing, I think it's

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Suzanne, ends up leaving pretty pretty
deep in the project, just before the

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deadline, and they absorb all of
her, all of her tasks and activities

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into their respective roles and pull this
thing off not anyway except successful in listless

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leaders. And if that doesn't sound
like music to your ears, I don't

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know what does. So with that, let's leave you hanging on the edge

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and go with our last freak.
Here. I'm Elise Cortez, your host.

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We've been on the yarth Marco Bogers. He's the co author of Getting

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Started with Holocracy, Upgrading your Team's
Productivity. We've been talking a bit about

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how to implement it. After the
break, we're going to learn that what

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it takes is to actually unlearn what
you think you actually know. Stay with

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us, we'll be right back.
Doctor release Cortez is a management consultant specializing

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in meaning and purpose and inspirational speaker
and author. She helps companies visioneer for

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greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose
inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate

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fulfillment, performance, and commitment within
the workforce. To learn more or to

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00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:51.160
invite a lease to speak to your
organization, please visit her at Elise Cortez

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00:31:51.200 --> 00:31:55.359
dot com. Let's talk about how
to get your employees working on purpose.

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This is working on Purpose with doctor
Elise Cortez. To reach our program today

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00:32:07.279 --> 00:32:13.160
or open a conversation with Elise and
send an email to Elise ali Se at

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00:32:13.200 --> 00:32:23.599
Elise Cortez dot com. Now back
to working on purpose. Thanks for staying

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with us and welcome back to Working
on Purpose. I mentioned in the first

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break about the Grab Your gusta wellbeing
podcast learning series. That content is program

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adapted from part one of my recently
published book called Purpose Ignited, How Inspiring

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Leaders Ignite Passion and Aelt Cause,
which is now available on Amazon. And

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I wrote that book to awakened readers
to their passion and purpose and helped transform

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them into inspirational leaders who enlignment the
workplace and elevate the contribution to business for

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all stakeholders. So that's where the
content comes from if you're just joining us.

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My guest is from Amsterdam today,
Marco Bogers and author, coach,

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trainer, and organizational consult Originally a
business law graduate, his career has spanned

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sales, marketing, productivity training,
organizational and purpose coaching. What has helped

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him to these transformations is to see
tensions as fuel as life handed him material

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for his writing. I'm your host, doctor Elis Cortez. So for this

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last bit here, I really wanted
to talk about this notion that you that

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you really mentioned over and over again, the BOOKMARKO and this notion of having

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to unlearn what we've been relying on
for years to do work in teams,

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which I think is incredibly useful to
be able to open into a new space.

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And so before we get into that
which is going to smack right into

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the middle of this, and we
sort of mentioned it earlier, from your

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experience and what you know about this, how do traditional command control, management

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00:33:43.759 --> 00:33:47.279
oriented people react to holocracy when they
hurt first hear about it and think they

407
00:33:47.279 --> 00:33:55.680
want to try it on that it
depends of the person. I felt that

408
00:33:55.799 --> 00:34:02.720
it doesn't work to actually sell the
sept to people as to try to contrince

409
00:34:02.839 --> 00:34:07.760
the What I feel is that the
persons who are attracted to this way of

410
00:34:07.880 --> 00:34:15.599
organizing are people who actually have experienced
the downside of being what I call a

411
00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:21.079
decision bottleneck in an hierarchy, in
a management hierarchy. So people who know

412
00:34:21.280 --> 00:34:24.920
like me that that you know,
in the end, it doesn't work,

413
00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:32.719
It doesn't empower people, it doesn't
grow your organization to take all the decisions.

414
00:34:32.719 --> 00:34:38.119
Further that I would say, if
you're on a personal development path,

415
00:34:39.199 --> 00:34:44.639
like if you've cone through some life
challenges, if you believe in the power

416
00:34:44.840 --> 00:34:49.199
of purpose, then I think if
you experience the limits of your ego,

417
00:34:49.920 --> 00:34:55.800
then I think you will really appreciate
all opacifity. M. That was a

418
00:34:55.840 --> 00:35:00.280
great opening, Marko. And if
that's not enticing listeners, of gosh,

419
00:35:00.800 --> 00:35:06.039
I've learned so much by by reading
this book and do actually plan to inculcate

420
00:35:06.079 --> 00:35:08.760
it into into my team as well. So you've already inspired me. Marcus.

421
00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:15.760
Thank you, Okay, you're welcome. Absolutely, thank you that I

422
00:35:15.800 --> 00:35:19.440
found you so. One of the
things that you also say, which I

423
00:35:19.480 --> 00:35:21.639
think is quite interesting, you say, the more you can let go of

424
00:35:21.639 --> 00:35:24.519
the belief that you must have a
solution for every tension, the better you

425
00:35:24.519 --> 00:35:29.400
can be a sensor for your roles
and the organization. Can you say more

426
00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:40.199
about that? Yeah, it's really
about going into this space of not knowing.

427
00:35:42.519 --> 00:35:46.159
Like the I have at tension doesn't
mean that you know how to solve

428
00:35:46.239 --> 00:35:58.400
it. It actually means that you
you you try to you try to deal

429
00:35:58.480 --> 00:36:01.440
with it in a way and just
start with the first step. Like if

430
00:36:01.480 --> 00:36:06.480
somebody brings in attention in a technical
meeting, for instance, or if I

431
00:36:06.559 --> 00:36:08.719
bring attention in a technical meeting,
I often don't know what's the answer,

432
00:36:09.039 --> 00:36:15.760
but I trust the system and it's
like, yeah, I'm taking Sometimes I'm

433
00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:22.880
taking a first step, so and
strangely enough, or actually not strangely enough,

434
00:36:23.239 --> 00:36:28.039
there's always come in some kind of
solution where I didn't expect it.

435
00:36:28.599 --> 00:36:34.960
Sometimes a solution can be that somebody
just takes an action. Sometimes a solution

436
00:36:35.039 --> 00:36:38.760
can be that it's a governance issue, like the attention has to do with

437
00:36:38.960 --> 00:36:45.719
that a role is not clearly defined. Sometimes I just need to speak out

438
00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:49.960
and be hurt. That could also
be one way to solve the attention.

439
00:36:50.480 --> 00:36:55.880
So what I really like about this
is that it really induces you to trust

440
00:36:55.960 --> 00:37:02.760
the process and trust that if you
speak out and if you name your attentions

441
00:37:02.840 --> 00:37:08.079
and if you if you dare to
bring them somehow, a solution will appear.

442
00:37:08.119 --> 00:37:14.559
And it does. So what I
take from the un learning on that

443
00:37:14.760 --> 00:37:16.559
is that we have to unlearn that
we don't have to have all the answers,

444
00:37:16.559 --> 00:37:21.239
that we don't have to come with
the solution and the answers. Rather

445
00:37:21.440 --> 00:37:27.960
we come with being able to articulate
the tension that we're experiencing and put it

446
00:37:27.960 --> 00:37:32.280
out there in a way to allow
others to help us exactly exactly. I

447
00:37:32.320 --> 00:37:36.639
mean one of the alps. Also, there's there's there's a process of governance.

448
00:37:36.679 --> 00:37:45.239
Meeting works around having objections apping integrating
objections. And sometimes people don't know

449
00:37:45.320 --> 00:37:50.599
what they want to propose as as
a proposal, and then one practice is

450
00:37:50.920 --> 00:37:54.480
I propose is that, okay,
it's just just ask people for objections.

451
00:37:55.039 --> 00:38:00.320
So I don't know what to say, so just come with objections and normal

452
00:38:00.360 --> 00:38:04.159
setting. That's a very frightening thing
to do because you ask people to disapprove

453
00:38:04.800 --> 00:38:07.920
of what you are proposing. But
here we turn it around. We ask

454
00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:14.559
people come up with some good objections
so we can integrate them. That is

455
00:38:14.599 --> 00:38:19.840
just so refreshing on every level.
Marko every level. And then along that

456
00:38:19.920 --> 00:38:22.239
line, you're welcome. One of
the other things that I also found extremely

457
00:38:22.280 --> 00:38:28.840
fascinating about holocricy is that it doesn't
solve every problem. Rather it just surfaces

458
00:38:28.920 --> 00:38:31.440
problems that we're already there so that
you can deal with them. So it's

459
00:38:31.440 --> 00:38:35.920
not a golden bullet, but it's
an important process. It's important to process

460
00:38:35.960 --> 00:38:38.559
to friction. You say so,
in other words, it's an illuminating tool.

461
00:38:38.559 --> 00:38:45.039
It's illumination tool. Yeah, it's
a way of making people more conscious.

462
00:38:45.199 --> 00:38:50.039
Some people refer to it, you
know, more in the spiritual realm.

463
00:38:50.199 --> 00:38:54.719
Some people refer to it as mindfulness
within companies, but it depends how

464
00:38:54.719 --> 00:39:05.639
you look at it. I see
it as a as a way of having

465
00:39:05.920 --> 00:39:10.760
an early response system and an early
warning system. So because it's so radical

466
00:39:10.880 --> 00:39:16.159
transparent, it's very hard to stay
in sleep or denial mode. I mean,

467
00:39:17.760 --> 00:39:24.559
you can do it. So another
another expression for that is there is

468
00:39:25.480 --> 00:39:31.480
there's only one wrong way to process
attention, and then it's not to process

469
00:39:31.559 --> 00:39:38.000
it. So what you just said
there and this notion of consciousness, Marco,

470
00:39:38.079 --> 00:39:42.679
Now I know exactly why I was
so drawn attracted to you because in

471
00:39:42.679 --> 00:39:46.119
your work, because I am very
much on a path where I am out

472
00:39:46.159 --> 00:39:50.599
to elevate my own consciousness and help
raise that in everyone that I work with

473
00:39:50.679 --> 00:39:53.239
and across the world. And now
I realize why I'm so attracted to this

474
00:39:53.280 --> 00:39:57.559
concept because it's about raising consciousness.
You just brought it home for me.

475
00:39:57.880 --> 00:40:00.800
Thank you for that. That's like
the nice pretty bow on the package that

476
00:40:00.840 --> 00:40:04.199
you've already given me as a gift. So thank you for that. That's

477
00:40:04.239 --> 00:40:08.440
just gives me so much more.
Yes, Okay, and now I want

478
00:40:08.440 --> 00:40:12.960
to get into this notion here,
and this is a little bit advanced for

479
00:40:13.039 --> 00:40:15.239
this conversation. But listeners and viewers
bear with us. There's this notion,

480
00:40:15.320 --> 00:40:21.679
this concept within the helocricy concept of
a lead link, and so that person

481
00:40:21.800 --> 00:40:25.199
is and Marco can clarify their role, but the lead link is constantly striving

482
00:40:25.239 --> 00:40:30.960
to make herself redundant by enabling the
circle to work autonomously from their roles.

483
00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:34.760
That sounds amazing to me. It's
more of a process of unlearning than of

484
00:40:34.880 --> 00:40:37.840
learning, especially when it comes to
a manager's tendency to take care of her

485
00:40:37.960 --> 00:40:43.320
people and to motivate and manage those
who are now self managing. So the

486
00:40:43.400 --> 00:40:45.480
lead link therefore plays a key role, for better or for worse, in

487
00:40:45.559 --> 00:40:57.719
the transformation from conventional to distributed leadership. Yeah, so for the former manager

488
00:40:57.840 --> 00:41:02.679
moves into the lead link role,
that's heard, and that is actually a

489
00:41:02.679 --> 00:41:13.519
crucial process. And actually one of
the other ways that holocracy, well purposes

490
00:41:13.519 --> 00:41:17.039
of holocracy is to break the parent's
child dynamics that you see at play in

491
00:41:17.119 --> 00:41:23.280
most organizations. You know, as
a manager, you are conditioned as a

492
00:41:23.360 --> 00:41:27.639
human. You know, the first
organization that you were ever in was your

493
00:41:27.679 --> 00:41:31.280
family, and there you come into
the child a parent dynamics and you take

494
00:41:31.320 --> 00:41:38.679
that into the corporate life unconsciously,
of course everybody does. So you see

495
00:41:38.719 --> 00:41:44.039
that at play at employees like asking
the manager, can you give me permission

496
00:41:44.079 --> 00:41:45.639
to do this? Can you give
me the mission to do that? In

497
00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:51.639
holocracy, Actually that's not a good
practice as a as a lead link.

498
00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:58.719
You have to learn to say,
well, I don't I you can decide

499
00:41:58.760 --> 00:42:01.440
by yourself. You know, you
don't need my permission to do anything.

500
00:42:01.920 --> 00:42:06.840
So what do you think you should
do? From your role? Which role

501
00:42:06.920 --> 00:42:09.239
is feeling attention? So you help
them, You've coached them to make their

502
00:42:09.280 --> 00:42:15.639
own decisions. And that's a big
that's a big change, especially from both

503
00:42:15.679 --> 00:42:21.280
sides, from employees and managers.
And what I love about that, what

504
00:42:21.360 --> 00:42:25.360
allures me about that is that it's
empowering and again it removes the mother may

505
00:42:25.400 --> 00:42:30.159
our father may I sort of whole
idea that you were describing for And I

506
00:42:30.199 --> 00:42:35.480
think that's incredible. And so what
I know too about employee motivation, doing

507
00:42:35.480 --> 00:42:38.760
employee engagement work and doing purpose work
is that when when people feel competent and

508
00:42:38.920 --> 00:42:46.440
empowered and responsible for and trusted to
make decisions, their their motivation and their

509
00:42:46.639 --> 00:42:51.559
their commitment increases. So this makes
complete sense why this works so well to

510
00:42:51.639 --> 00:42:57.000
me. Yeah, it speaks to
you know, autonomy, mastery, those

511
00:42:57.039 --> 00:43:04.679
other things that that are very important. And then another thing that we have

512
00:43:04.800 --> 00:43:07.199
to talk about here that surfaced in
the reading of your book that is so

513
00:43:07.320 --> 00:43:14.599
timely in the year plus of the
Corona nineteen Corona virus pandemic, is this

514
00:43:14.679 --> 00:43:17.760
notion that when you look at this
from the outside, if you're just beginning

515
00:43:17.760 --> 00:43:23.000
to start to unpeel holocracy, it
appears to be so impersonal, but in

516
00:43:23.039 --> 00:43:28.679
reality it creates more space for personal
connection, not less. Would you share

517
00:43:28.679 --> 00:43:30.719
more about your perspective on that.
You and I had a short exchange about

518
00:43:30.760 --> 00:43:34.360
that via email, But would you
share more about your perspective on that?

519
00:43:34.440 --> 00:43:40.920
Why is that so? Yeah?
Actually, that's just one of the paradoxes.

520
00:43:42.039 --> 00:43:50.320
So roles are not personal, so
circles are not personal. So first,

521
00:43:50.360 --> 00:43:55.119
holocracy enables you to differentiate work into
roles, and that's an impersonal process.

522
00:43:55.119 --> 00:44:00.360
But after that it starts to integrate
the purpose and personal. So it

523
00:44:00.559 --> 00:44:09.159
actually moves you from from a duality
like personal versus uh not personal, which

524
00:44:09.199 --> 00:44:13.960
which are two things, into what
I would call a polarity. You start

525
00:44:14.039 --> 00:44:22.239
to navigate these two and actually you
integrate them into yourself. M That is

526
00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:31.519
powerful and uh and actually I think
that is where the personal development side of

527
00:44:31.599 --> 00:44:37.039
it comes into play. Like you
know, I would say stage one is

528
00:44:37.320 --> 00:44:40.719
if you ask the question who am
I? That people you know used to

529
00:44:40.719 --> 00:44:45.559
say, I am a consultant or
I am a trainer. Now the question

530
00:44:45.599 --> 00:44:51.679
who am I is You're not your
roles because you you you fulfill roles,

531
00:44:51.440 --> 00:44:54.599
So that's not just just one of
part of the question. So it comes

532
00:44:54.639 --> 00:45:00.199
important to answer the question, so
not only who am I, so what

533
00:45:00.360 --> 00:45:02.719
is my purpose? Why am I
serving these roles? And why am I

534
00:45:02.760 --> 00:45:08.800
serving this organization? So delop becomes
much more at the forefront. And because

535
00:45:08.840 --> 00:45:14.840
you've done the work of differentiating,
differentiating role, that becomes space for your

536
00:45:14.880 --> 00:45:20.679
personal development and your purpose, where
normally that's all mashed up in organization.

537
00:45:20.920 --> 00:45:23.679
You know, you don't see that
because it's it's too vague. Actually,

538
00:45:25.400 --> 00:45:30.239
okay, And now we get to
where we promised this at the beginning,

539
00:45:30.280 --> 00:45:36.199
that that holocracy does allow and enable
personal development and an opportunity to reach an

540
00:45:36.280 --> 00:45:39.039
express purpose. Now you've just started
home for us, and so say a

541
00:45:39.039 --> 00:45:44.239
little bit more if you would,
just maybe another few sentences about how people

542
00:45:44.320 --> 00:45:49.519
can better why this creates a space
for them to be able to personally develop

543
00:45:50.039 --> 00:45:57.599
an Otherwise in a more traditional space
they couldn't. Maybe Yeah, because the

544
00:45:57.679 --> 00:46:06.119
fact that people are actually decision makers
in their roles makes that they should become

545
00:46:06.159 --> 00:46:09.760
better in decision making and know why
they are doing the things that they're doing.

546
00:46:10.079 --> 00:46:14.320
Now, the mechanism of purpose,
as I don't need to explain to

547
00:46:14.480 --> 00:46:22.079
you, is actually the best way
of having at making decisions in that of

548
00:46:22.519 --> 00:46:28.800
of of knowing why you do things. And that's why I'm not working you

549
00:46:28.840 --> 00:46:32.559
know what, I'm now implementing holocracy. Actually I try to also start with

550
00:46:32.679 --> 00:46:37.400
purpose. I start to do,
you know, get people on the purpose

551
00:46:37.480 --> 00:46:45.239
train even before they start to work
with holocacy sometimes because I think that's very

552
00:46:45.280 --> 00:46:50.880
important that if people really choose why
they work for an organization from their personal

553
00:46:50.960 --> 00:46:55.960
motivation and personal purpose, there will
be much more better of making decisions in

554
00:46:57.000 --> 00:47:00.360
any roles that they can, and
they will be able also to choose the

555
00:47:00.440 --> 00:47:05.239
roles that fit them. They just
know, just not accept any role that

556
00:47:05.800 --> 00:47:08.280
they should be doing, but they
choose the organization. They choose the role

557
00:47:08.639 --> 00:47:14.760
really consciously. Oh that sounds good
to me. Oh, Marco, I'm

558
00:47:14.800 --> 00:47:17.159
so glad to ask that question now
here we are already at then in the

559
00:47:17.199 --> 00:47:20.920
show already we just have just a
little bit of time left. And you

560
00:47:20.960 --> 00:47:23.320
know, the show is listening to
people across the globe who want to be

561
00:47:23.440 --> 00:47:28.760
able to help create workplaces where people
thrive, where inspirational leaders help bring out

562
00:47:28.800 --> 00:47:31.559
their best and business is done for
its highest cause. What would you like

563
00:47:31.559 --> 00:47:37.280
to leave our listeners with today?
Yeah, I had a bit of thought

564
00:47:37.280 --> 00:47:42.599
about that, and yeah, and
considering the times that we are living in,

565
00:47:42.760 --> 00:47:45.840
actually, I think, you know, I am extremely chant inspired the

566
00:47:45.880 --> 00:47:53.880
current situation also with COVID and and
I think as a species now we're on

567
00:47:53.920 --> 00:48:00.880
a cross roads. We have tremendous
power, and I think organization should use

568
00:48:01.320 --> 00:48:07.639
that force and become a force to
use that our wisely. So I think

569
00:48:07.639 --> 00:48:13.039
we have a responsibility to make that
happen. In other words, really think

570
00:48:13.079 --> 00:48:16.519
about how we can make our organizations
better ancestors. I love the idea of

571
00:48:16.559 --> 00:48:21.840
being a better ancestor. In Aland
we used to be very very proud of

572
00:48:21.880 --> 00:48:25.960
our corporate ancestors. We created actually
the first multinational in the world, We

573
00:48:27.159 --> 00:48:30.719
created the first stock exchange in the
world, and now we see that our

574
00:48:30.800 --> 00:48:37.320
wealth from the seventeenth century was partly
built in human slave trade, and I

575
00:48:37.360 --> 00:48:44.760
would say, let us let us
not make that same mistake again. What

576
00:48:44.880 --> 00:48:46.559
a beautiful way to finish Marcos.
I'm still glad I found you. I'm

577
00:48:46.559 --> 00:48:50.280
so happy to share with my listeners
across the globe. Thank you for being

578
00:48:50.280 --> 00:48:53.559
such a beautiful soul helping us elevate
our consciousness with the callocracy. Great to

579
00:48:53.599 --> 00:48:58.320
have you, Thank you, thank
you, Thanks for the invitation. I

580
00:48:58.360 --> 00:49:01.440
loved it, loved it so glad
listeners viewers. If you want to learn

581
00:49:01.440 --> 00:49:06.639
more about Marco Boger's holocrisy or his
book on holocricy, start by visiting his

582
00:49:06.679 --> 00:49:12.519
website, which is work inflow dot
nl. And thanks again for our partnering

583
00:49:12.559 --> 00:49:15.440
sponsor work Proud, which helps companies
build a platform where your workforce receives meaningful

584
00:49:15.480 --> 00:49:20.119
feedback and thanks for their work from
people across your company. Last week,

585
00:49:20.119 --> 00:49:22.079
if you miss the live show,
you can catch a bab recorded podcast We're

586
00:49:22.119 --> 00:49:25.599
on there with doctor Claudia Beanie,
founder of the House of Shine, talking

587
00:49:25.599 --> 00:49:30.519
about this incredible nonprofit and curriculum that
helps people from ages five to ninety five

588
00:49:30.880 --> 00:49:34.800
discover what makes them shine. Next
week, we'll be on the air with

589
00:49:34.880 --> 00:49:39.360
Gabriel kick Scan of Golden Eagle Executive
Coaching and Alive on Purpose Coaching, talking

590
00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:44.360
about how he works specifically with men, tell them discover and live their purpose.

591
00:49:44.519 --> 00:49:45.559
See you're there. Remember that work
is at least a third or our

592
00:49:45.559 --> 00:49:54.360
live. So let's work on Purpose. We hope you've enjoyed this week's program.

593
00:49:54.480 --> 00:49:59.599
Be sure to tune into Working on
Purpose featuring your host, Doctor Release

594
00:49:59.679 --> 00:50:05.280
courts As each week on the Voice
America Empowerment Channel. Together, we'll create

595
00:50:05.320 --> 00:50:12.559
a world where business operates conscientiously,
leadership inspires impassioned performance, and employees are

596
00:50:12.599 --> 00:50:16.239
fulfilled in work that provides the meaning
and purpose they crave. See you there,

597
00:50:16.800 --> 00:50:19.239
Let's work on Purpose.