Cultivating Excellence in Supporting Roles

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There are some people that make their
work just another thing they have to do,

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and there are those that make their
work something that they want to do.

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Welcome to Working on Purpose with your
host Elise Cortes. In our program,

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we provide guidance and inspiration from those
people who have found deeper meaning and

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personal connection to their work life.
It's beyond nine to five. It's working

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on Purpose. Now Here is your
host, Elise Cortes. Welcome back to

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Working on Purpose show. Thanks for
tuning in again this week. I'm your

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host, Alise Cortes, joining you
from Dallas, Texas, which is home

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base for me. This program is
all about helping people more meaningfully and productively

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connect with their work and equipping organizations
do the same for their employees. And

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it was originally inspired by the meaning
and work research I've been doing over the

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last fifteen years and draws from that
along with the consulting work that I do

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in Senium, which is a global
management consulting for us. I'll get to

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the program in just a second,
but let me thank my media partner and

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sponsor, jobbing dot com. They
are the leading locally focused job board in

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the nation and they're dedicated to helping
employers find quality talent in their own backyard

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while giving jobs acre's control over their
search. Thanks jobbing dot Com. Last

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week, if you weren't with us, we were on the air with Brett

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Randall, who is the CEO of
soul Man's Barbecue, which is the beloved

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North Texas based restaurant chain. Here
we talked about his unlikely entrance into the

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restaurant business, his journey to develop
his culinary and leadership talents, and how

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he and his team purposely and daily
operate from their carefully crafted culture to focus

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on service as inspired by their own
individual faith. Some of the things that

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stood out were Brett's ability to infuse
his business with his own values through faith

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and create a culture that really lets
him live his purpose of the work that

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he does in his leadership that he
exercises across his two unre and twenty five

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employees. It was actually, might
I just say at dinnertime a delicious conversation?

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No, sorry, I couldn't resist. So with us this week is

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doctor Norman Baldwin, who is a
professor of political science at the University of

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Alabama, where he has served as
Director of Graduate Programs Undergraduate programs and the

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Master of Public Administration program. He
is the author of Winning at Following Secrets

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to Success, and Supporting Roles.
He joined it today from Tuscaloosa, Alabama.

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Doctor Baldwin, Welcome to Working on
Purpose. Thank you. It's a

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pleasure to be here with you.
I have been looking forward to this conversation.

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I told you when we first spoke
that I haven't had this topic on

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the air. It's a really important
topic to talk about in the world of

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business today. So to get us
right into the content here before we get

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into what I want to get to
in your book and your arab of expertise,

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you know, I got to ask, because I'm a meeting and work

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researcher, why did you pursue a
career in education. Well, and I'll

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say this this, I had a
couple jobs that paid well that I was

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born in them. My father was
a professor, and I took a look

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at his job and thought, you
know, he really does some interesting things,

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and as a consequence, I kind
of followed in his footstats. He

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was actually a micro biologist, and
I was not good with my hands in

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the laboratory, so I had to
do a different side of campus. To

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pursue the social sciences and political science
in particular. Okay, So I love

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the fact that you know what you
even just said, You actually left well

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paid, perfectly well paying jobs to
do this kind of work. I think

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that is just fantastic. And since
I do, in fact I speak on

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this topic the importance of being able
to work from whatever gets you up in

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the morning and gives you a sense
of purpose, I just really applaud that

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I didn't ask you that before,
so I'm glad I ask it this time.

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Okay, So the content, doctor
Baldwin, You know, I think

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it's really interesting when you talk about
the work that you've been doing around your

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research, and the first thing that
you say is leaders get all the glory.

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Why do you suppose that is well, I think it's easier to understand

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that leaders are allowing organizations to perform
at high levels or attributed to the success

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as an organization, and we have
this real romance with leadership, and it's

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much easier to understand that there's some
great leader that brought about an outstanding out

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guns in to understand something like the
complex system of multi level networks and a

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myriad of variables in the internal and
external organization. So it's just simpler.

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But we have to remember that even
though leaders get all the glory, they

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also get all the blame, and
so it cuts both ways with the leaders.

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That is so true. And you
know, after we first spoke about

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this and I knew you were going
to come on the show, I really

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began paying more attention to the work
that we do as manasment consultant, because

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we do do a lot of work
with leaders, but of course the only

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way that work gets done is through
the people who support up into to execute

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their mission. So I just really
felt like this is such an important topic

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that doesn't get discussed enough. So
the other thing that strikes me about leadership

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is we tend to remember extreme behavior, extreme good behavior, and extreme bad

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behavior, and so we're always reading
about these incredibly successful coaches, for example,

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like Nick Satean at the University Alabama, and of course they're the people

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in the private sector that are so
outstanding, like Bill Gates that you know,

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so many leaders, I mean,
they're just there are millions of leaders

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out there that are in between the
extremes, are really bad and really outstanding,

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that we really never hear about.
So yeah, it's the few really

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outstanding leaders that get all the glory, and then there's kind of the middle

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that doesn't get as much attention,
and they probably do get more attention and

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get more attributed to their behavior than
at least what we would ascribe to them

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as people who are into followership and
what subordinates really bring to the organization.

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Right, So, I'm really really
interested in and I generally almost ask all

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of my authors who'll come on my
show this question about why they wrote the

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book. Your book is beautiful.
I'm looking at it right here. You've

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created a beautiful cover jacket, and
the contents are quite compelling. But I

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know how much work it takes to
write a book, So why did you

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write it? Well, my father
was an interesting character. I always thought

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that he should be a dean or
a university vice president or a university president,

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and he just never had any interest. He was extremely well rounded,

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dealt with people beautifully, had great
values, well read to relate tall sorts

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of people, but he had no
desire whatsoever to climb the hierarchy in the

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university system. Then, in my
experience, as in a leadership roll the

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university system, that was much more
stressful than I thought it would ever be.

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I was the president of the Faculty
Senate at University Alabama, and consequence,

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I was accountable to one thousand,
one hundred faculty members. I'd had

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to lead a fifty member faculty Senate
and a seventeen member steering committee, and

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I tell you it was just a
lot of pressure. It seemed like all

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I did all day long was screen
email. I was kind of a clearing

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house. I'd tend people to places
where they should have started instead of starting

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with me. And all I did
was feeled complaints all day long. And

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it wasn't until the end of the
work day when the email quit coming in

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and I could really get anything done. It had anything of substantive significance in

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the sense of new policies and programs, And it was just a much more

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difficult job than I ever anticipated.
And I thought, you know what,

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I don't think I'm going to stick
around to do this much longer. So

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I did one term and was gone, and my wife was actually quite pleased

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that it was over with. I
was kind of a bit crabby that year

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that led the faculty Senate. That
is awesome, you know you read academically,

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and you find people that are kind
of kindred spirits, and there's a

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small group of us that are academics
that are really into this topic. And

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the other thing is kind of interesting. I do simple make casual observations and

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ask questions, like to my students, and here I am teaching classes and

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how to lead, manage and organize
people for public service, and I ask

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my students, well, how many
of you want to be leaders? And

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when the hands go up, let's
say you have a class of forty five

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students or maybe a half dozen people
that want to be leaders. Yet the

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entire courses or much of the courses
focused on how to lead people. A

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bit of a disconnect. Yes,
yeah, And I realized that I'm really

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kind of missing the boat in terms
of what these kids need, and especially

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knowing that they're going out into a
work environment and they're going to be the

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lowest followers on the TOTEM poll,
that they really needed some skill and how

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become a great follower. And I
know I want to I want to get

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into that and into the after the
break here because I want to get really

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really up close in person with that
information. But first I want to help

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our listeners understand that your book is
based on research, So how did you

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do the research and what's the general
gist of what you found. Well,

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the research is just a matter of
digging deep into what's already out there.

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And I just gathered as many quantitative
quantitative studies as possible and found as many

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qualitative studies as possible on what the
ideal traits of followers were. But then,

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basically, you know, it's not
enough to know what the ideal traits

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of followers are, what brings followers
job satisfaction, what brings them dissatisfaction,

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What are the best jobs and the
worst jobs for followers? So it's just

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a matter of lots and lots of
library work going, you know, just

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hundreds and hundreds of articles together and
summarizing that information. So I've done a

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lot of quantitative research myself, but
this is just a matter of pulling together

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a body of research that nobody else
has really pulled together quite the way I

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have. Mm hmmmm. I won't
say much about this, but I just

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want to chime in because I've really
approached my research from a qualitative vantage point

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to discover how people connect with work, and I didn't separate it according to

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individual contributors or followers like you're talking
about. But certainly can see that there

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are certain things, like you know, cognitive challenge that's really important for some

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relationship and social connection to others,
and these are not at all related to

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leadership. It's related to the actual
what they're actually doing on a day to

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day basis. And so I'm sure
we could talk ad nauseme about this,

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but just fascinating kind of look at
it differently about this stuff. So you're

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visiting with the right guy. I
like it. I like my company,

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like my company. Well, one
of the of the things that we talked

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about, as you as most of
my listeners probably know, is I'd like

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to have a pulmitary conversation with my
guests before we get on the air,

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so we can chat about what it
is that you really want to talk about

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in relation to my topic. And
you said something interesting that I want to

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bring up for our listeners. You
said, it's not enough just to please

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the boss when it comes down to
followership and individual contribution. Why not.

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Well, basically, if you can
please the boss and be totally miserable,

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you can hate the boss. You
can hate your coworkers. You can hate

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the nature of your work, you
can hate the nature of the culture and

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climate the organization. So you know, what are you really getting out of

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pleasing the boss if you're miserable.
So really, almost two thirds of the

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book that I've written is about how
to become a satisfied follower, how to

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avoid dissatisfying aspects of organizations that we
know from research, and it's also about

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essentially jobs that followers will really like
based on the research. And in addition,

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the book also talks about how to
deal with common problems that followers experience,

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such as bowling bosses and sexual harassers
and micromanagers, etc. So,

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yeah, I as an academic for
whatever reason to me, I'm part of

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a kind of a cadre of organization
theorists that believe that work should be self

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fulfilling, should allows to self actualize, should be meaningful, And so it's

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not all about cracking the whip all
the time. So we're the most productive

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organization in the region or state or
whatever, but essentially, not only we

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productive organization, but we're an organization
where people really love going to work because

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they love their jobs, they love
the climate, they love their bosses and

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colleagues. Well again, kindred spirits
here, doctor Balin. I really believe

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in the importance of finding fulfilling work
too, So very much believe that work

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can be very much a way to
self actualize. And of course I've learned

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that's not true for everybody wants that, but it can be that, and

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I could not agree more. Trying
to find a place where you can actually

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be who you are and feel fulfilled
by that and happy about your contribution is

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huge, huge, whether you're a
leader or not. Yeah, there's some

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interesting research that exists that came out
of MIT that basically shows that you can

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give people jobs outside of their work
through civic organizations all and they will work

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much harder than they'll actually work on
their real job when they're doing something that

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is meaningful, that makes a difference, no question, get no pay whatsoever,

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and yet just work their heart out
for a worthy cause and meaningful work.

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Oh. I have contributed countless hours
of my life, years of my

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life doing community service leadership roles and
for no pay. Completely get that.

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Yeah, And you say it doesn't
make much sense because we so oftentimes been

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misled by thinking that people are motivated
by money. And I've spent an entire

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career trying to convince students that people
aren't just motivated by money, that they're

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motivated by intrinsically satisfying work. And
one of the sayings I use in class

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is what you want to do is
what make work as much like play as

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possible. And that doesn't mean you
don't hold the people accountable for getting a

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job done, but you let them
do it in a way where they'll have

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fun and true enjoyment and delight and
can find meaning in the word you know

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what doctor Baal went Just last night, I was speaking to a group of

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women about leadership development, and I
asked them something about where do what do

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you find? How do you find
value or meaning in your work? And

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a bunch of things up, you
know, what does it mean to be

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fulfilled? And they think something passion
and impact, contribution and connection, all

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these kinds of things, and not
once did anybody in that room of about

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eighty five people say money. Yeah, not once. Well, now one

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is actually interesting. After spending like
three quarters of semester teaching students that money

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is not everything, what you actually
the research actually shows is that you can

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reintroduce money and it doesn't hurt intrinsic
motivation, and that actually added on to

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meaningful work and social recognition and feedback
and all money helps. But we shouldn't

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be looking at it as the primary
motivator. And what's very interesting about the

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research is that when people throw money
at progressively more cognitive difficult tasks, people

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perform worse. I've seen that same
stuff throwing money out and to do simple

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tasks, they perform worse when you're
throwing money out them to perform complex tasks.

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I think that's incredibly fast. It
is. And on that note,

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doctor Baldwin, it's already time for
our first break. It goes so fast.

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I'm Alis Cortez, your host.
We've been on the air with doctor

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Norman Baldwin, who is the professor
of political science at the University of Alabama.

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He's the author of Winning at Following
Secrets to Success, and Supporting Roles.

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He joins us today from Tuscaloosa,
Alabama. We've been talking a bit

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about what he's been researching around followership
and why. After the break, we're

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going to get into the nitty gritty
details of some of the qualities that employers

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are seeking when looking for followers and
how to cultivate that in them. Stay

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00:16:34.039 --> 00:16:52.120
with us Friend us on Facebook to
keep up with what's empowering the world.

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00:16:52.600 --> 00:17:00.639
Voice America Empowerment. Alis Cortez is
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A. L i Se at Elisecortes
dot com. Now back to Working on

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00:18:33.920 --> 00:18:40.000
Purpose. Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to Working on Purpose

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00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:42.079
if you're just joining us. My
guest is doctor Norman Baldwin, who is

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Professor of Political Science at the University
of Alabama, where he has served as

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Director of Graduate Programs, Undergraduate Programs, and the Master of Public Administration program.

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He's the author of Winning at Following
Secrets to Success, and Supporting Roles.

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00:18:55.480 --> 00:19:00.400
I'm your host, Alise Cortes.
Okay, so getting us right into

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the content of the follower piece.
What do I want to start with here

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for the segment? If we can, doctor Balwin, for those people out

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there who are maybe thinking of themselves, but maybe I should be there.

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I'm supposed to strive to be a
leader. Isn't that where everybody's supposed to

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get to in their career. What
are the advantages of pursuing a career without

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being a leader. Well, I
think the main thing is is that,

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gosh, so many low level jobs, even though they paarallel level, are

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really the most meaningful. It's just
like would you rather be on the air

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or be running the radio station?
And that would I rather be running the

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university or being in the class one
I like to deal with classroom students.

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My father was a microbiologist who wanted
to be in the lab. He didn't

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want to be a dean or department
chair. And I think he can goes

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through every occupation. A physician wants
to be working with patients day doesn't want

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to be or she doesn't want to
be running a hospital. It's just much

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more meaningful oftentimes working directly with clients. So the other thing is that I

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laugh about is that and then you
are a follower. You don't have all

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the ugly responsibilities that a leader has, in particular having to give people essentially

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bad performance evaluations are good ones that
aren't good enough from the perspective of your

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employees, having to give people assignments
they don't want denying them pay raises,

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denying them promotions, having the fire
people. You don't have to deal with

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any of that when you're not a
leader. And the truth of the matter

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is, you can actually be an
informal leader, have a lot of power

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because you are in fact an expert
and exercise good judgment and know how to

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work well with people. You can
be the informal leader and becoming all the

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shots and avoiding all those ugly responsibilities
of leadership. You are reminding me,

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doctor Balwin. Over the years,
I've done a lot of leadership development work

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with executives and directors and managers,
etc. And I remember so distinctly I

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was doing at the time. I
was doing a strengths Finder workshop developing culture

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and leadership in a technical team,
and we were talking about, you know,

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the stuff that really juices you up, that lights you up? You

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know what is it that really brings
you alive? And I saw him sit

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in the back of the room and
I saw his eyes kind of get kind

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of big, and I said to
it, I didn't. I called his

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name out and said, Hey,
what's going on for you? I can

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see it on your face. What's
happening? He said, Oh, my

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gosh, I've really made the realization
that I've been spending all these years cultivating

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my leadership career and I don't want
to do that. What I love is

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the trogal stuff, right. I
want to be there. I want to

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be the nitty gritty of the data
and the architecture. That's what turns me

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on. And I said, I'm
happy and for you that you've discovered that

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for yourself, you know, But
to your point, right, to your

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point, absolutely, yeah. Well
it's interesting. My nephew coaches with the

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Dallas Cowboys. He's a receiver coach
and he is a leader in that sense

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over the receivers. That he was
a former head coach and he enjoyed being

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a head coach. But when i'm
I've interviewed him and asked him about his

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responsibilities. Oh my god, when
you're a head coach with a major Division

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one team, all the people that
are barking at you all the time and

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all the scrutiny that you have from
the contemporary media makes a job just unbelievably

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demanding. And you know, some
people do really well as a head coach

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or a CEO. Having very diverse
interest in liking to work day and night

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and not worrying about what's happening on
social media and other people just don't have

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that diverse set of interests and don't
respond as well to the diverse types of

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pressures that leaders have. Mm hmm. Well, another thing that was quite

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interesting to me, kind of it's
related to this conversation tangentially that I thought

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was interesting and certainly wanted to share
with our listeners, is you started to

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talk about how society seems to usher
people away from certain jobs that and I

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know you've got a perspective about why
this happens and kind of the effect that

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it has on people. So what
kind of jobs are seen as desirable and

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00:23:02.799 --> 00:23:07.359
what aren't. Well, it's interesting
to pull the research together. I had

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no idea, for example, that
certain jobs like an actuary and a dental

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00:23:11.480 --> 00:23:18.240
hygienist and a pharmacist are really very
good jobs for people in the sense that

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the work is interesting, it pays
well, the hours are good, you

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00:23:22.119 --> 00:23:29.519
don't have to travel. And the
thing that's also fascinating is that to me,

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the very top rated jobs all tend
to be moderately technical, and again,

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these are jobs that pay well,
that are interesting work. That have

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decent hours, etc. And engineering
jobs, for example, are consistently ranked

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extremely high. Jobs as financial advisors
and financial planners are basically rated highly as

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our jobs as computer systems analysts.
And what's interesting is that these are historically

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kind of male dominant jobs, and
it's unfortunate that historically women have not been

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socialized to go into these different occupations
that are technical in nature. And I

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think it's just one of the great
things about the book is to reveal or

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what these leading jobs are and hopefully
that there is a women are reading the

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book and realizing that maybe I ought
to take a look at being an engineer.

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And after doing the research, I
can tell you that I never thought

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of being an engineer. I never
thought of being a financial planner. And

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I wish I would have taken a
course or two to expose me to these

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areas that turn out to be terrific
jobs that on the surface I didn't think

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00:24:36.920 --> 00:24:38.400
it'd be that great. And of
course I would never think of being an

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actuary. But yeah, I'm curious
now even though I've already had a career.

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Well, I have a fourteen year
old daughter, so I am keenly,

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keenly interested in ensuring that she gets
the full breadth of possibility presented to

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her as options, and that isn't
segregated and sorted by gender tradition, et

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cetera. So I I completely opt
into what you're talking about too. Let's

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just look at all the options and
see where things land. And I do

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do a lot of work with women's
leadership groups, many of which are technical,

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and they are you know, they're
kind of their own camp, their

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00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:19.079
own breed. Yeah, well,
I hope this book. I hope the

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book is essentially read by women.
The first people that I got to endorse

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00:25:23.599 --> 00:25:29.920
the book were the first female president
of the University of Alabama and the first

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and only female Chief Justice of the
Alabama Supreme Court. And you know,

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00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:37.720
you can kind of get a quick
look over the book, and you know,

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if we people turn to the back
and say, aha, maybe women

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will appreciate. And I certainly keeping
my fingers crossed that way. But the

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other thing I want to share with
you is there's some jobs that on the

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surface are very sexy that actually,
when you get right down to it,

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are not that great a jobs for
followers. And that is jobs, for

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00:25:57.640 --> 00:26:03.839
example, as a police officer,
as a broadcaster, as a newspaper reporter.

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00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:10.720
These are all jobs that don't pay
well that oftentimes cause you to work

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very difficult hours. And that's something
like a police officer needs to say,

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00:26:14.960 --> 00:26:18.240
is a very dangerous job. And
even broadcasting what you're into, that's a

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00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:22.640
if you're doing that as a career, that is a It can be a

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00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:27.920
very demanding job. And typically broadcasters
essentially develop their own news in small markets

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00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:33.599
that don't pay well. They're working
evening shifts and late night shifts and weekends,

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00:26:33.640 --> 00:26:37.680
and there's always somebody that's wanting their
job that they have to compete against.

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00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:42.119
So, but we think of these
jobs, especially when we watch jobs

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00:26:42.119 --> 00:26:48.640
about people in policing organizations. All
they're all excited on television, but again

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they're dangerous, they work bad hours, and they don't pay that well.

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00:26:52.160 --> 00:26:56.480
Yeah, yeah, well, and
I think that's a really important thing to

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call out for listeners. I mean, one of the things that I really

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00:27:00.200 --> 00:27:04.000
enjoy is encouraging people to if they're
not happy doing what they're doing, go

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look for another way to make it, to make a living. There's you're

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00:27:07.839 --> 00:27:11.680
gonna you could probably be working well
into your sixties and seventies today because of

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00:27:11.720 --> 00:27:15.319
how longer lifespans are, so if
you're miserable in something, there's so many

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00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:22.759
other options. Absolutely well, and
it's just interesting. We are kind of

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00:27:22.799 --> 00:27:29.319
seduced and there is probably some sexual
socialization that's still going on that allows us

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00:27:29.359 --> 00:27:33.480
to, I think, not reach
our optimal happiness and contentment at work.

359
00:27:34.119 --> 00:27:37.839
H What do you mean by that? That's fair? Well, again,

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00:27:37.960 --> 00:27:45.880
I think that now we still are
have professions that are predominantly dominantly male or

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00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:51.799
female, and I think that when
there's more gender integration and people are finding

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their true passion, then you know, people are just happier. And that

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00:27:56.079 --> 00:28:00.359
means that you know, man ex
sense are becoming registered nurses and nurse practitioners,

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and more women going into the STEM
field, so it's technology engineering,

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00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:10.359
et cetera. I got it now, Yes, completely agree with that.

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Yes, I am really interested in
the notion of androgyny. The idea for

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00:28:14.799 --> 00:28:17.640
me of how I look at that
is, you know, what can women

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00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:22.359
learn from men or how can they
become or associate or enjoy what are seen

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00:28:22.400 --> 00:28:27.799
as more traditionally characteristic attributes of men
and vice versa men of women. Because

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00:28:27.799 --> 00:28:33.039
I think everybody wins when when you
can do that in a way that celebrates

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00:28:33.079 --> 00:28:37.319
that permits that. I think it's
it's a good thing for all of us.

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00:28:37.880 --> 00:28:42.559
Yeah. Well, the research on
women and management, organizations and leadership

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00:28:42.640 --> 00:28:48.839
is just fascinating. Absolutely, the
debates there are so intriguing that that would

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00:28:48.920 --> 00:28:53.960
probably be another good radio show.
I think we can talk at least a

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00:28:55.039 --> 00:29:00.319
year. Women in management and leadership
is just fascinating, and women are out

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00:29:00.359 --> 00:29:04.920
showing men oftentimes. There's some really
good meta analyses, big review articles that

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00:29:04.920 --> 00:29:11.440
summarize all the research that show how
terrific women are in leadership roles. Yeah,

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00:29:11.559 --> 00:29:14.480
I can a little bit off topic. I'm going to check your wagh

379
00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:15.559
in on that we're going to go
down a rabbit hole. But I'd love

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00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:19.640
to talk more about that as well. But since we are talking about individual

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00:29:19.640 --> 00:29:23.920
contributors and followership, and you sort
of mentioned that you've got a whole chapter

382
00:29:23.920 --> 00:29:27.799
in the book about this, for
the sake of our listeners who might be

383
00:29:27.799 --> 00:29:33.440
dealing with this, how can people
deal more effectively with a boring boss or

384
00:29:33.480 --> 00:29:38.079
a micromanager? Well, the micromanager
is the one I like to talk mainly

385
00:29:38.119 --> 00:29:44.400
about. It's interesting people have this
sense that if you just go to the

386
00:29:44.400 --> 00:29:48.079
boss and you have a heart tart
conversation about being micromanaged that you that you'll

387
00:29:48.119 --> 00:29:52.160
connect and the micromanager boss will back
off. And that's just not true.

388
00:29:52.160 --> 00:29:56.000
When you go and complain to the
boss, even civilly and diplomatically, it

389
00:29:56.079 --> 00:30:02.759
just makes the micromanager want to micromanage
even more. So. Yes, but

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00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:06.599
anyway, you know, I think
that one of the key things you need

391
00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:11.119
to do in dealing with micromanagers is
just like a good parent who anticipates the

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00:30:11.160 --> 00:30:15.839
needs of their children, you anticipate
the needs of your boss, and you

393
00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:21.000
become an early person. You meet
those needs before they're they're actually articulated to

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00:30:21.119 --> 00:30:25.640
you. And you know, I
think we're all have tendencies to be late

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00:30:25.759 --> 00:30:27.480
on time or early people, and
it's a matter of people that are on

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00:30:27.599 --> 00:30:32.400
time or late becoming early people so
that the boss isn't bothering you all the

397
00:30:32.480 --> 00:30:40.880
time. But basically, you overcome
problems with micromanagers when you behave consistently performed

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00:30:40.960 --> 00:30:45.480
consistently up to their standards. Uh
So you can't turn in good work one

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00:30:45.559 --> 00:30:49.240
day and then slop your work the
next that you when you see the consistency,

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00:30:49.279 --> 00:30:53.400
when the micromanager sees the consistency,
then they back off. But there

401
00:30:53.400 --> 00:30:56.000
are a lot of a lot of
different things you can do. Find simple

402
00:30:56.039 --> 00:31:02.319
things is when your micromanager does back
up off, you show appreciation, you

403
00:31:02.440 --> 00:31:08.119
reinforce any kind of positive behavior,
and yeah, and you don't fight your

404
00:31:08.119 --> 00:31:15.920
way to freedom. Sometimes you even
have to develop an upfront agreement where I've

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00:31:15.960 --> 00:31:19.279
written understanding with the boss that you're
going to check back together, check in

406
00:31:19.359 --> 00:31:22.920
every two weeks or once a month
or whatever. In contrast to this everyday

407
00:31:22.960 --> 00:31:27.720
stuff that micromanagers can get caught up
in, and I hate to say it,

408
00:31:29.000 --> 00:31:33.240
in dealing with all these problematic bosses
that I write about, one of

409
00:31:33.279 --> 00:31:37.759
the things that I instruct with every
one of them is when all else fails,

410
00:31:37.039 --> 00:31:42.720
it's important to move on, and
that they're just we have natural followership

411
00:31:42.839 --> 00:31:48.519
styles that are sometimes just incompatible with
the leadership style the micromanager, a bullying

412
00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:55.680
boss, etc. So moving on
is clearly always one of the options.

413
00:31:56.319 --> 00:31:59.759
You know. One of the things
I just was thinking about as you were

414
00:31:59.759 --> 00:32:02.680
talking here, doctor Balwin, is
just today I was doing a coaching conversation

415
00:32:02.799 --> 00:32:07.680
with a leader that I'm working with
him. We were talking about delegation and

416
00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:09.039
how hard that can be for it, because she says, you know,

417
00:32:09.079 --> 00:32:12.839
I know how I like things,
and I feel like it's just easier if

418
00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:15.079
I just go do something myself.
And I said, yeah, for you

419
00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:17.759
to develop your skills, you're going
to have to learn how to delegate well

420
00:32:17.799 --> 00:32:22.559
and coach and teach people how to
do the job that you want them to

421
00:32:22.599 --> 00:32:25.319
do, and then support them so
they can bring up their skills. And

422
00:32:25.400 --> 00:32:29.400
probably in the process of doing that, you know, until you gain comfort,

423
00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:31.200
you're probably going to be a micromanager. And she said, yeah,

424
00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:36.319
I've I've been accused of that and
anyway, so it's interesting when you start

425
00:32:36.359 --> 00:32:37.839
talking about this stuff and I start
thinking about the work that I do on

426
00:32:37.839 --> 00:32:42.440
the other side with leaders, what's
happening there. And I love what you're

427
00:32:42.480 --> 00:32:47.839
saying about how how followers can teach
and encourage and reinforce the behaviors that they

428
00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:54.640
want in their leaders. That's gorgeous, gla your way to freedom. I

429
00:32:54.680 --> 00:33:01.519
wasn't quite going there, but I
like that too, Okay. I like

430
00:33:01.559 --> 00:33:07.799
that you have these unexpected pearls that
come up from the conversation. One of

431
00:33:07.799 --> 00:33:09.200
the other things that you and I
talked about on the phone briefly, when

432
00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:13.079
I was asking you about some of
the things that you really like to talk

433
00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:17.119
about, you talked about exceptions to
research, and when it comes to one

434
00:33:19.039 --> 00:33:24.880
in talking about followership, I'm passing
on essentially what most of the research is

435
00:33:24.920 --> 00:33:30.880
saying. But that doesn't mean that
anyone individual is an exception. And I

436
00:33:30.960 --> 00:33:35.519
write in my book about how there
are certain people that there are meant to

437
00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:38.720
be lawyers. I think for most
people who go on to LA for a

438
00:33:38.759 --> 00:33:42.240
lot of people, a lot of
people that go onto law school, they're

439
00:33:42.279 --> 00:33:45.079
really not meant to be lawyers.
But there's some people who absolutely, unequivocally

440
00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:49.599
should be a lawyer. Same thing
with newspaper reporters. Even though that is

441
00:33:49.680 --> 00:33:53.359
ranked dead last as an attractive job, they are people that are ideally fit

442
00:33:53.480 --> 00:33:59.880
to be a newspaper reporter. So
I always teach that in the absence of

443
00:33:59.880 --> 00:34:02.839
complete information, what's your best generalization? And so the book is full of

444
00:34:02.880 --> 00:34:07.079
the generalizations. But when you have
complete information, you can break all the

445
00:34:07.159 --> 00:34:13.119
rules or go against what the empirical
research says. M H got it.

446
00:34:13.639 --> 00:34:15.039
That's so important, right, because
what we would not want to do on

447
00:34:15.079 --> 00:34:17.920
this show is we would not want
to leave those listeners there life, but

448
00:34:17.960 --> 00:34:21.920
I do want to be a newspaper
reporter. Thinking that they shouldn't pursue that,

449
00:34:22.599 --> 00:34:27.159
so well, absolutely they need to
pursue it. It's interesting. My

450
00:34:27.280 --> 00:34:31.800
nephew coaches with the Dallas Cowboys.
He basically got a nice buyout as a

451
00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:35.920
head coach at the university and he
didn't have to work another day of his

452
00:34:36.039 --> 00:34:40.719
life. However, he loves coaching
and at the moment he could get another

453
00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:45.639
coaching job, he was back in
it. He was meant to be a

454
00:34:45.679 --> 00:34:47.519
coach, and even though it was
a very very hard job, it's perfect

455
00:34:47.519 --> 00:34:52.280
for him. M M. I
get that. It's a beautiful thing when

456
00:34:52.320 --> 00:34:59.079
people find the work that they really
are supposed to be doing suited to do.

457
00:34:59.199 --> 00:35:02.079
It's so beautiful. Well yeah,
yeah, for everybody, for everybody,

458
00:35:02.079 --> 00:35:05.440
for them, and for everybody that
they interact with, their families,

459
00:35:05.440 --> 00:35:09.039
their communities, the people they work
with. Everybody wins right well. And

460
00:35:09.079 --> 00:35:14.719
it's interesting to ask students and people
what motivates them. And the thing that's

461
00:35:14.760 --> 00:35:19.119
interesting they always think that something hard
motivates and I said, well, think

462
00:35:19.159 --> 00:35:23.320
about when you're doing something you really
enjoy and you're put in all sorts of

463
00:35:23.320 --> 00:35:28.400
hours and going to bed late because
you can't put something down. So that's

464
00:35:28.519 --> 00:35:31.039
how we want work to be.
Work as much like your play as possible.

465
00:35:31.679 --> 00:35:35.880
And I think, and I've taught
this forever, is that so many

466
00:35:35.920 --> 00:35:40.000
of the problems of organizations are solved
just by hiring the right person. And

467
00:35:40.400 --> 00:35:43.599
I don't know what the percentage would
be, but I'd say, you know,

468
00:35:43.639 --> 00:35:46.440
eighty nine percent of problems are solved
when you hire a person that is

469
00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:51.880
perfectly suited to the job. They
love the job, They're going to work

470
00:35:51.880 --> 00:35:55.320
hard because the work is so intrinsically
satisfying, exciting and stimulating and fun.

471
00:35:58.199 --> 00:36:01.280
I completely agree with that. I'm
right on board. I could you and

472
00:36:01.360 --> 00:36:07.960
I are speaking the same language.
It's a good thing. Yeah, we

473
00:36:07.039 --> 00:36:09.199
might have read the same book,
Yeah, and some of the same books

474
00:36:09.199 --> 00:36:13.159
to get to where we both are
in terms of our research. But here

475
00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:15.599
we are already time for another break. I'm Alis Cortez, your host.

476
00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:20.000
We've run the year with doctor Norman
Baldwin, who is professor of political science

477
00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:23.079
at the University of Alabama. He
is the author of Winning at Following Secrets

478
00:36:23.079 --> 00:36:28.000
to Success, and Supporting Roles.
He joined us today from Tuscaloosa, Alabama.

479
00:36:28.079 --> 00:36:30.360
After the break, we're going to
get into the nitty gritty details of

480
00:36:30.440 --> 00:36:46.639
followers styles and qualities employers seek.
Stay with us, Friend us on Facebook

481
00:36:46.639 --> 00:36:53.199
to keep up with what's empowering the
world. Voice America Empowerment. Alice Cortez

482
00:36:53.280 --> 00:36:59.559
is a speaker and engagement and development
catalyst. She designs and delivers professional development,

483
00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:04.599
ship and engagement workshops and can bring
her expertise to your organization. She

484
00:37:04.679 --> 00:37:09.199
will help ignite meaningful development within your
workforce that will increase employee engagement, performance

485
00:37:09.320 --> 00:37:14.519
and retention. To learn more or
to invite Elise to speak to your organization,

486
00:37:14.679 --> 00:37:19.920
please visit her at www dot Elisecortes
dot com. She would welcome the

487
00:37:19.960 --> 00:37:24.920
opportunity to help get your employees working
on purpose. We're making it easier to

488
00:37:25.000 --> 00:37:30.000
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Network wherever you go. In addition to

489
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490
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491
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492
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493
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494
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495
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496
00:38:13.360 --> 00:38:17.679
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497
00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:22.320
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498
00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:39.800
life changing talk radio. Visit Starstyle
Radio dot com. Jes you follow us

499
00:38:39.840 --> 00:38:52.599
on Twitter for more great ideas at
Voice America Empowerment. This is Working on

500
00:38:52.760 --> 00:38:58.079
Purpose with Alas Cortes. To reach
our program today, please call in to

501
00:38:58.199 --> 00:39:02.280
one triple eight three four six nine
for one. Again that's one triple eight

502
00:39:02.440 --> 00:39:07.440
three four six nine one for one. You may also send an email to

503
00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:14.760
Elise A. L Se at elise
Coortes dot com. Now back to working

504
00:39:14.840 --> 00:39:20.679
on Purpose. Thanks fristing with us, and welcome back to working on Purpose

505
00:39:20.960 --> 00:39:22.840
if you're just tuning in. My
guest is doctor Norman Baldwin, who is

506
00:39:22.880 --> 00:39:27.519
Professor of political Science at the University
of Alabama, where he has served as

507
00:39:27.559 --> 00:39:31.320
Director of Graduate Programs, Undergraduate Programs, and the Master of Public Administration program.

508
00:39:31.599 --> 00:39:36.719
He is the author of Winning at
Following Secrets to Success in Supporting Roles.

509
00:39:36.760 --> 00:39:39.440
I'm your host, Alis Cortes.
So for this last segment here if

510
00:39:39.440 --> 00:39:42.920
we can, doctor Baldman, I
really want to give our listeners some really

511
00:39:42.920 --> 00:39:45.559
good meet from your book. So
first thing I want to get to is

512
00:39:45.880 --> 00:39:50.639
you talk about followers styles in your
book. Fascinating. I didn't even consider

513
00:39:50.679 --> 00:39:53.400
that. So how many are there
and how would you briefly describe them?

514
00:39:54.039 --> 00:40:00.159
Well, there are five different dot
colomies, and the economies are, for

515
00:40:00.199 --> 00:40:07.599
example, a conformist follower versus an
individualistic follower, uh, an active follower

516
00:40:07.719 --> 00:40:14.000
versus a more passive follower. We've
got followers that are also very pragmatic versus

517
00:40:14.039 --> 00:40:19.679
those that are kind of dreamers uh
or are less practical. And then we

518
00:40:19.800 --> 00:40:25.000
have followers that are essentially very self
oriented versus altruistic. So I think I

519
00:40:25.079 --> 00:40:28.559
leave it. Get all those,
I guess they're yeah, that's about ten.

520
00:40:29.480 --> 00:40:34.880
Uh yeah, active followers and passive
followers also, so and these are

521
00:40:34.880 --> 00:40:38.880
these are the followership styles that occur
in the in the research and in the

522
00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:47.519
qualitative types of research. Also,
so fairly self explanatory, uh, yeah,

523
00:40:49.679 --> 00:40:52.039
and you know, I hate to
say that they're alienated followers and passive

524
00:40:52.039 --> 00:40:54.960
followers, but they just are.
But one thing I talk about is that

525
00:40:55.079 --> 00:41:00.280
certain followers that are passive are really
not passive. It's symptomatic of some bad

526
00:41:00.280 --> 00:41:07.400
experience as an organization and kind of
an alienated follower. It may be totally

527
00:41:07.440 --> 00:41:12.239
symptomatic, but in the short run, there are people that are clearly followers

528
00:41:12.280 --> 00:41:16.519
that are alienated, not committed to
the organization. So it strikes me as

529
00:41:16.559 --> 00:41:21.280
I'm listening to you talk about those, because I've got I've discovered fifteen modes

530
00:41:21.320 --> 00:41:24.079
of engagement in relation to how people
experience meaning in their work and how it

531
00:41:24.119 --> 00:41:28.960
relates to their sense of identity,
and they're mutable. So it strikes me

532
00:41:29.039 --> 00:41:32.880
that these follower styles are probably also
mutable, depending on the boss, the

533
00:41:32.920 --> 00:41:37.000
work environment, yes, no,
or do you have a did you you

534
00:41:37.039 --> 00:41:43.239
know? I think you're onto something. I still think that the passivity in

535
00:41:43.320 --> 00:41:47.039
the alienated follower, that that's probably
a symptom. That the question is have

536
00:41:47.159 --> 00:41:51.760
they been alienated and passive for such
a long time that we can't do anything

537
00:41:51.760 --> 00:41:54.199
about it, We can't change them. But I would say things like being

538
00:41:54.400 --> 00:42:01.599
an active follower and committed follower of
pragmative and a self word or outwistic.

539
00:42:01.719 --> 00:42:06.440
Some of those things are just part
of our personalities and they're very difficult to

540
00:42:06.559 --> 00:42:10.480
change. They're givens, and we're
probably smart in terms of thinking of those

541
00:42:10.559 --> 00:42:17.320
being givens up to a certain point. Yeah, because I certainly know that

542
00:42:17.360 --> 00:42:22.599
in my research, I think there
are tendencies for people to go to want

543
00:42:22.599 --> 00:42:27.400
to experience a certain mode of engagement. That's what they look for because of

544
00:42:27.480 --> 00:42:30.360
their of their personalities, their value
sets, what they want from work,

545
00:42:30.440 --> 00:42:35.280
et cetera. But according to the
environment they find themselves, and sometimes it

546
00:42:35.599 --> 00:42:40.199
does change. My big deal in
writing this book is that, you know,

547
00:42:40.239 --> 00:42:44.760
I present the ideal qualities of the
follower that we'll talk about shortly,

548
00:42:45.480 --> 00:42:50.360
uh, and then I have a
chapter on how to change to really aspire

549
00:42:50.400 --> 00:42:55.039
to and integrate these qualities into your
behavior repertoire. But then I go on

550
00:42:55.119 --> 00:42:58.880
and say, hey, look at
some of you just can't change. And

551
00:42:58.960 --> 00:43:02.920
in consequence, what we want to
do is put you in organization cultures and

552
00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:10.559
climates and with leadership styles that are
compatible with your natural followership style. Yeah,

553
00:43:10.559 --> 00:43:15.559
we're just trying to get the match, right. Yeah, Well,

554
00:43:15.679 --> 00:43:19.400
what are those five qualities that employees
are looking for in great followers? What

555
00:43:19.480 --> 00:43:23.480
are they actually? Yeah, there
are three actually that kind of separate out

556
00:43:23.519 --> 00:43:28.599
as in the top one. And
these actually surprised me before I did the

557
00:43:28.639 --> 00:43:32.840
research. I wouldn't necessarily guess these. But the number one quality is effective

558
00:43:32.840 --> 00:43:37.239
communicator. And we're talking about,
you know, just people communicating in a

559
00:43:37.239 --> 00:43:43.840
way that's understandable, that's accurate,
that's timely, and not excessive. And

560
00:43:44.039 --> 00:43:50.079
the bottom line is bosses and organizations
are not wanting followers to be seen and

561
00:43:50.159 --> 00:43:53.159
not heard. That's far from the
truth, because no superiors want supportments that

562
00:43:53.199 --> 00:43:57.280
are open, that speak up,
their offer opinions, and are persuasive.

563
00:43:57.719 --> 00:44:00.639
And I also talk about followers who
are effective communicators that speak up and shut

564
00:44:00.719 --> 00:44:06.400
up and listen. Yes, But
the second leading quality is as active.

565
00:44:06.800 --> 00:44:10.239
People want active followers, not passive
followers. They want followers that don't wait

566
00:44:10.280 --> 00:44:15.480
for directions. They're proactive, their
participators are energetic, their initiators. And

567
00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:21.639
then the third leading quality is interpersonally
skillful. And here we're just talking about

568
00:44:21.760 --> 00:44:29.079
bosses and management loving subordinates who are
socially intelligent. Here we're talking about individuals

569
00:44:29.079 --> 00:44:34.519
that are diplomatic or tactful, they're
friendly, they interact, and they're skilled

570
00:44:34.519 --> 00:44:40.199
at building networks. Those are the
three leading. The other two qualities actually

571
00:44:40.199 --> 00:44:43.800
I thought would have been high on
the list that are part of the top

572
00:44:43.840 --> 00:44:47.760
five is being responsible and being a
team player. And it was interesting that

573
00:44:49.519 --> 00:44:52.039
I thought I actually had responsible as
the number two in my mind, but

574
00:44:52.079 --> 00:44:57.039
it actually comes in as fourth and
team player as fifth, and then six.

575
00:44:57.079 --> 00:45:00.000
Actually, if you look at the
top half dozen, we're talking about,

576
00:45:00.440 --> 00:45:08.360
interestingly enough, followers being flexible and
adaptable. So okay, so I

577
00:45:08.480 --> 00:45:14.039
have never heard of these qualities before
for followers. They make complete sense to

578
00:45:14.079 --> 00:45:17.519
me and the work that I've been
doing over the years. How you did

579
00:45:17.559 --> 00:45:21.760
mention something about you've got a whole
chapter devoted and obviously you don't have time

580
00:45:21.800 --> 00:45:24.440
to hear about the whole chapter,
but how can followers at least start to

581
00:45:24.440 --> 00:45:32.039
cultivate some of these qualities? Well, you know, it's interesting. The

582
00:45:32.119 --> 00:45:37.800
chapter is kind of about how you
change habits, and first of all,

583
00:45:37.960 --> 00:45:42.559
there are all sorts of ways to
get the technical information to know how to

584
00:45:42.599 --> 00:45:47.440
be essentially a more effective communicator active
in there and personally skillful, and there

585
00:45:47.440 --> 00:45:52.440
are junior colleges and universities and colleges
that are close by where you can take

586
00:45:52.519 --> 00:45:58.519
courses, and if you can't get
to them in terms of accessibility, you

587
00:45:58.559 --> 00:46:04.519
can take online courses. And now
what you have for absolutely free from the

588
00:46:04.519 --> 00:46:09.639
best universities in the country or what
are called these mooks massive online open courses

589
00:46:09.679 --> 00:46:15.320
that you can take for absolutely free. And I know when I was in

590
00:46:15.360 --> 00:46:20.800
graduate school, I took a course
essentially in interpersonal dynamics that really hits on

591
00:46:21.800 --> 00:46:27.000
this idea of being interpersonally skillful,
and it was life changing in terms of

592
00:46:27.039 --> 00:46:30.880
giving me skills. So I wasn't
so obnoxious in the way I communicated with

593
00:46:30.920 --> 00:46:37.400
people and interacted with people, but
anyway, so I was encouraged people basically

594
00:46:37.519 --> 00:46:44.480
to pursue the educational opportunities to become
more effective communicator and interpersonally dynamic and less

595
00:46:44.519 --> 00:46:50.440
passive, et cetera. But then
they're just kind of dynamics, other dynamics

596
00:46:50.440 --> 00:46:54.960
such as you know, finding the
triggers of bad habits that keep you from

597
00:46:55.000 --> 00:47:00.679
becoming the ideal follower and developing substitute
behaviors. Once you find the triggers that

598
00:47:00.800 --> 00:47:07.280
go against for example, the behavior
that you're wanting to get rid of and

599
00:47:07.320 --> 00:47:10.719
the new behavior wanting to develop.
A lot of things you do if you

600
00:47:10.760 --> 00:47:15.679
want to be interpersonally skillful and more
active, you hang around with people that

601
00:47:15.719 --> 00:47:20.239
are interpersonally skillful and you learn from
them. You hang around people that are

602
00:47:20.280 --> 00:47:23.400
proactive people and effective communicators, etc. But there are, you know,

603
00:47:23.519 --> 00:47:28.320
kind of a lot of a lot
of different tricks to bring it about the

604
00:47:28.400 --> 00:47:30.679
change. And again, I really
love the idea of starting with taking a

605
00:47:30.760 --> 00:47:36.679
course and learning these skills. That
is great. I got to say two

606
00:47:36.719 --> 00:47:38.599
things to what you said. They're
really quick. First, I cannot imagine

607
00:47:38.599 --> 00:47:44.800
you being obnoxious. I just can't
imagine that. It really hard to get

608
00:47:45.320 --> 00:47:49.599
Well, that's good. Then my
course succeeded back in graduate school. Yeah,

609
00:47:49.679 --> 00:47:52.440
it's just impossible. And I've you
know, I've worked and had the

610
00:47:52.480 --> 00:47:55.119
privilege of working with really fantastic leaders
over the years who told me some similar

611
00:47:55.159 --> 00:47:58.199
things. I look at them today, I'm like, you've got to be

612
00:47:58.280 --> 00:48:00.320
kidding me. I can't imagine.
So clearly, here's the good news for

613
00:48:00.320 --> 00:48:04.119
anybody listening, right, we can
all learn, we can all change,

614
00:48:04.320 --> 00:48:07.840
we can work on these things.
The other thing that really strikes me that

615
00:48:07.840 --> 00:48:10.920
you're talking about is just how important
it is to be able to work at

616
00:48:10.960 --> 00:48:16.440
getting conscious of these kinds of behaviors
and tendencies in us, to reveal them

617
00:48:16.480 --> 00:48:21.360
to ourselves, because so much of
how we live our life is very automated,

618
00:48:21.440 --> 00:48:23.079
right, We just have an automated
response to things, and we don't

619
00:48:23.119 --> 00:48:27.880
think about how we can do something
different, and so finding a way to

620
00:48:27.920 --> 00:48:31.320
get present to that is the start. Yes, I agree with you,

621
00:48:32.679 --> 00:48:37.599
but again, there are some people
that just can't change. And that's why

622
00:48:37.800 --> 00:48:42.280
one of the things I talked about
in the book is pursuing employment, uh

623
00:48:42.599 --> 00:48:47.239
in organizations that are compatible with your
personality. Yeah. Absolutely, I you

624
00:48:47.280 --> 00:48:51.800
know, I talk a lot to
my students here at Southern Methison University about

625
00:48:51.800 --> 00:48:53.480
opting into the right culture, the
kind of job that is just going to

626
00:48:53.599 --> 00:48:58.559
let you be you. I mean
you, I do get you, and

627
00:48:58.599 --> 00:49:01.519
I kind of misspoke earlier. You're
right, not we can't all change,

628
00:49:01.159 --> 00:49:06.400
and we can change less as we
get older. Oftentimes it seems like so,

629
00:49:06.960 --> 00:49:07.880
I guess I get you to be
careful about how I say that.

630
00:49:09.239 --> 00:49:13.840
We can learn, but there are
certain things that get really hard to change

631
00:49:13.840 --> 00:49:19.880
in us right, absolutely. I
got to ask this question here. I've

632
00:49:19.920 --> 00:49:22.599
never heard this before either, and
you talk about this in your book too,

633
00:49:22.400 --> 00:49:27.079
the notion of havens and hayes.
What do you get out there?

634
00:49:27.679 --> 00:49:31.880
Well, I just have a couple
of chapters on the havens where you sit

635
00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:37.480
best and the havens where you don't
fit. Okay. It's like I would

636
00:49:37.519 --> 00:49:42.800
bet your natural followership style is to
be active. Would that be correct?

637
00:49:43.119 --> 00:49:49.320
You're not, I'm afraid not,
don't okay, And for somebody like you

638
00:49:49.360 --> 00:49:53.440
who's an active follower, you,
for example, would work very well and

639
00:49:53.599 --> 00:49:59.800
very under task oriient leaders and task
going cultures and climates you'd probably love working

640
00:49:59.840 --> 00:50:06.440
on or a transformational leader and leaders
democratic, very oriented towards allowing people to

641
00:50:06.440 --> 00:50:13.000
participate in turn. You know,
you probably wouldn't work very well under an

642
00:50:13.000 --> 00:50:15.639
autocratic or an authoritative leader in culture. You probably don't work as well in

643
00:50:15.719 --> 00:50:22.639
bureaucratic cultures, correct, So it's
just a matter it's saying telling you to

644
00:50:22.840 --> 00:50:29.880
steer clear of bureaucracy and autocrat yes, and pursue those transformational leaders who have

645
00:50:29.960 --> 00:50:35.559
a democratic leadership style also and are
very task oriented. Yeah, that's where

646
00:50:35.599 --> 00:50:38.159
I do my best work well,
We're coming really close to the end here

647
00:50:38.159 --> 00:50:40.559
at Doctor Balm, and I want
to I want to get one more question

648
00:50:40.599 --> 00:50:44.920
in here that I want to make
sure and ask for our listeners. So,

649
00:50:45.119 --> 00:50:49.400
what what can leaders do in today's
workforce to more effectively support their followers?

650
00:50:49.760 --> 00:50:53.519
These are the people they count on
to execute. Yeah, they need

651
00:50:53.559 --> 00:50:58.800
that. There's just such a wealth
of information out there that can tell them

652
00:50:58.840 --> 00:51:02.519
how to satisfy their employees. And
it's a matter of tapping into that.

653
00:51:02.960 --> 00:51:08.519
There are thousands and thousands of findings
on what brings employees job satisfaction. There

654
00:51:08.519 --> 00:51:14.440
are thousands and thousands of findings on
why people turn over, why people are

655
00:51:14.519 --> 00:51:17.960
absent from work, you know,
why people are unproductive and unmotivated, And

656
00:51:19.280 --> 00:51:24.199
it is so easy to access contemporarily
and these there are basically these review articles

657
00:51:24.280 --> 00:51:28.920
that pull it all together, that
tell you exactly what to do and what

658
00:51:29.079 --> 00:51:32.880
to avoid. And so it's just
a matter of exposing yourself to this.

659
00:51:35.199 --> 00:51:37.280
You know, our leaders have to
have a learning attitude and they have to

660
00:51:37.280 --> 00:51:40.840
be willing to do things that are
different. But in general, I also

661
00:51:40.880 --> 00:51:45.960
point my finger to academia. Academia
is an area of management, public administration,

662
00:51:46.079 --> 00:51:52.159
business, administration is too oriented towards
teaching people to be leaders. Yes,

663
00:51:52.519 --> 00:51:57.400
yes, you don't see followership chapters. You don't see chapters very often

664
00:51:57.440 --> 00:52:02.400
on job satisfaction, dissatisfactor, et
cetera. And so we and ACADEMA need

665
00:52:02.440 --> 00:52:08.559
to start including followership and writing about
how you really satisfy your employees instead of

666
00:52:08.599 --> 00:52:13.039
telling leaders all the time how to
lead, how to motivate, out to

667
00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:16.480
communicate effectively. All those things are
good, but there just needs to be

668
00:52:16.519 --> 00:52:23.079
academically a little stronger focus on followership. I completely agree. You just look

669
00:52:23.079 --> 00:52:25.159
at the numbers. You can see
there's a lot more followers than there are

670
00:52:25.239 --> 00:52:30.400
leaders, so under service population,
I think, well, here we are

671
00:52:30.400 --> 00:52:32.159
at the end really quick. I
want to thank you doctor Waldwin for coming

672
00:52:32.199 --> 00:52:37.079
and joining us. Thank you so
much for lending your passion, your perspective.

673
00:52:37.880 --> 00:52:40.239
Well, thank you, it's been
very enjoyable. And tell us if

674
00:52:40.239 --> 00:52:44.400
you can quickly for our listeners,
how can they contact you? How can

675
00:52:44.440 --> 00:52:50.360
they find you online? Okay,
I'm at. I've got a website that's

676
00:52:50.880 --> 00:53:00.159
Involvedwin dot people, dot ua dot
edu. Perfect and that also can that

677
00:53:00.280 --> 00:53:05.079
site you can connect to information about
the book. Great and also my email

678
00:53:05.079 --> 00:53:08.599
address is in Baldwin at UA dot
Edu. Perfect. Thank you, doctor

679
00:53:08.599 --> 00:53:12.920
Baldwin. All right here we are
the end of the hour, so join

680
00:53:13.000 --> 00:53:15.039
us next week when we talk with
Jared Grossman, who is the co founder

681
00:53:15.079 --> 00:53:20.559
of Muscle Prodigy and a sought after
performance consultant. We'll be talking about the

682
00:53:20.599 --> 00:53:23.000
mindset he teaches clients to perform with
their best in business and in life,

683
00:53:23.199 --> 00:53:27.480
his take on motivation at work,
and how to achieve fulfillment in life and

684
00:53:27.480 --> 00:53:30.079
work using his eight part process.
See you then, remember that work is

685
00:53:30.079 --> 00:53:39.519
at least one third of our life, So let's work on purpose. We

686
00:53:39.599 --> 00:53:44.559
hope you've enjoyed this week's program.
Be sure to tune into Working on Purpose,

687
00:53:44.719 --> 00:53:49.440
featuring your host Elise Cortes, every
Wednesday at six pm Eastern Time three

688
00:53:49.440 --> 00:53:53.119
pm Pacific Time on the Voice America
Empowerment Channel. This week, find your

689
00:53:53.159 --> 00:54:00.679
life's purpose at work.