Cultivating Excellence in Supporting Roles

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There are some people that make their
work just another thing they have to do,

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and there are those that make their
work something that they want to do.

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Welcome to Working on Purpose with your
host Elise Cortez. In our program,

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we provide guidance and inspiration from those
people who have found deeper meaning and

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personal connection to their work life.
It's beyond nine to five. It's working

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on Purpose. Now Here is your
host, Alise Cortez. Welcome back to

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Working on Purpose show. Thanks for
tuning in again this week. I'm your

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host, Alise Cortez, joining you
from Dallas, Texas, which is home

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base for me. This program is
all about helping people more meaningfully and productively

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connect with their work and equipping organizations
do the same for their employees. And

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it was originally inspired by the meaning
and work research I've been doing over the

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last fifteen years and draws from that
along with the consulting work that I did

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in seni In, which is a
global management consulting for I'll get to the

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program in just a second, but
let me thank my media partner and sponsor,

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jobbing dot com. They are the
leading locally focused job board in the

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nation and they're dedicated to helping employers
find quality talent in their own backyard while

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giving job secers control over their search. Thanks jobbing dot Com. Last week,

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if you weren't with us, we
were on the air with Brett Randall,

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who is the CEO of Soulman's Barbecue, which is the beloved North Texas

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based restaurant chain. Here we talked
about his unlikely entrance into the restaurant business,

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his journey to develop his culinary and
leadership talents, and how he and

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his team purposely and daily operate from
their carefully crafted culture to focus on service

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as inspired by their own individual faith. Some of the things that stood out

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were Brett's ability to infuse his business
with his own values through faith and create

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a culture that really lets him live
his purpose of the work that he does

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in his leadership that he exercises across
his two or twenty five employees. It

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was actually, might I just say
at dinnertime a delicious conversation? No,

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sorry, I couldn't resist. With
us this week is doctor Norman Baldwin,

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who is a professor of political science
at the University of Alabama, where he

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has served as Director of Graduate Programs, Undergraduate Programs, and the Master of

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Public Administration program. He is the
author of Winning at Following Secrets to Success,

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and Supporting Roles. He joined today
from Tuscaloosa, Alabama. Doctor Baldwin,

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Welcome to Working on Purpose. Thank
you. It's a pleasure to be

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here with you. I have been
looking forward to this conversation. I told

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you when we first spoke that I
haven't had this topic on the air.

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It's a really important topic to talk
about in the world of business today.

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So to get us right into the
content here before we get into what I

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want to get to in your book
and your Arab expertise, you know,

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I got to ask, as I'm
a meeting and work researcher, why did

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you pursue a career in education.
Well, in all seriousness, I had

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a couple of jobs that paid well
that I was bored in them. My

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father was a professor, and I
took a look at his job and thought,

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you know, he does some interesting
things, and as a consequence,

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I kind of followed in his footsteps. He was actually a microbiologist, and

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I was not good with my hands
in the laboratory, so I had to

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do a different side of campus to
pursue the social sciences and political science in

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particular. Okay, So I love
the fact that you know what you even

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just said, you actually left well
paying, perfectly well paying jobs to this

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kind of work. I think that
is just fantastic. And since I do,

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in fact I speak on this topic
the importance of being able to work

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from whatever, whatever gets you up
in the morning and gives you a sense

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of purpose, I just really applaud
that I didn't ask you that before,

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So I'm glad I ask you this
time. Okay, So the content,

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doctor Baldwin, You know, I
think it's really interesting when you talk about

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the work that you've been doing around
your research, and the first thing that

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you say is leaders get all the
glory. Why do you suppose that is

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well, I think it's easier to
understand that leaders are allowing organizations to perform

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at high levels or attributed to success
as an organization, and we have this

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real romance with leadership, and it's
much easier to understand that there's some great

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leader that brought about an outstanding out
guns into understand something like the complex system

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of multi level networks and a myriad
of variables in the internal and external organization.

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So it's just simpler. But we
have to remember that even though leaders

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get all the glory, they also
get all the blame, and so it

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cuts both ways with the leaders.
That is so true. And you know,

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after we first spoke about this and
I knew you were going to come

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on the show, I really began
paying more attention to the work that we

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do as an asment consultant, because
we do do a lot of work with

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leaders, but of course the only
way that work gets done is through the

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people who support up into to execute
their mission. So I just really felt

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like this is such an important topic
that doesn't get discussed enough. I've said.

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The other thing that strikes me about
leadership is we tend to remember extreme

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behavior, extreme good behavior, and
extreme bad behavior, and so we're always

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reading about these incredibly successful coaches,
for example, like Nick Sayman at the

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University of Alabama. And of course
there are the people in the private sector

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that are so outstanding, like Bill
Gates that you know, so many leaders,

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I mean, they're just there are
millions of leaders out there that are

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in between the extremes, are really
bad and really outstanding that we really never

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hear about. So yeah, it's
the few, really outstanding leaders that get

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all the glory, and then there's
kind of the middle that doesn't get as

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much attention, or they probably do
get more attention and get more attributed to

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their behavior than at least what we
would ascribe to them as people who are

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into followership, and what subordinates really
bring to the organization depend BLI right,

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So I'm really really interested in and
I generally almost ask all of my authors

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who will come on my show this
question about why they wrote the book.

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Your book is beautiful. I'm looking
at it right here. You've created a

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beautiful cover jacket and the contents are
quite compelling. But I know how much

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work it takes to write a book, So why did you write it?

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Well? My father was an interesting
character. I always thought that he should

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be a dean or a university vice
president or a university president, and he

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just never had any interest. He
was extremely well rounded, dealt with people

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beautifully, had great values, well
read to relate to all sorts of people.

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But he had noticedire whatsoever to climb
a hierarchy in the university system.

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Then, in my experiences as in
a leadership role in the university system,

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that was much more stressful than I
thought i'd ever be. I was the

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president of the Faculty Senate at the
University Alabama, and as a consequence,

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I was accountable to one thousand,
one hundred faculty members. I'd had to

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lead a fifty member faculty Senate and
a seventy member steering committee, and I

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tell you it was just a lot
of pressure. It seemed like all I

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did all day long was screen email. I was kind of a clearing house.

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I'd tend people to places where they
should have started instead of starting with

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me. And all I did was
field complaints all day long. And it

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wasn't until the end of the work
day when the email quit coming in and

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I could really get anything done.
It had anything of substitute significance in the

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sense of new policies and programs,
And it was just a much more difficult

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job than I ever anticipated, and
I thought, you know what, I

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don't think I'm going to stick around
to do this much longer. So I

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did one term and was gone,
and my wife was actually quite pleased that

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it was over with. I was
a bit crabby that year that I've led

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the faculty Senate. There's also you
know, you read academically and you find

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people that are kind of kindred spirits. And there's a small group of us

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that are academics that are really into
this topic. And the other thing is

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kind of interesting. I do simply
I make casual observations and ask questions,

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like to my students, and here
I am teaching classes and how to lead,

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manage, and organize people for public
service. And I asked my students,

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well, how many of you want
to be leaders? And when the

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hands go up, let's say you
have a class forty five students, there

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maybe a half dozen people that want
to be leaders. Yet the entire courses,

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or much of the course is focused
on how to lead people of a

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disconnect. Yes, yeah, And
I realized that I'm really kind of missing

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the boat in terms of what these
kids need, and especially knowing that they're

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going out into a work environment and
they're going to be the lowest followers on

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the TOTEM poll, that they really
needed some skill and how to become a

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great follower. And I know I
want to I want to get into that

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into the after the break here because
I want to get really really up close

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in person with that information. But
first I want to help our listeners understand

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that your book is based on research, So how did you do the research

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and what's the general gist of what
you found. Well, the research is

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just a matter of digging deep into
what's already out there. And I just

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gathered as many quanti quantitative studies as
possible and found as many qualitative studies as

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possible on what the ideal traits of
followers were. But then basically I thought,

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you know, it's not enough to
know what the ideal traits of followers

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are, what brings followers job satisfaction, what brings them dissatisfaction, What are

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the best jobs and the worst jobs
for followers? So it's just a matter

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of lots and lots of library work
going, you know, just hundreds and

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hundreds of articles together summarizing that information. So I've done a lot of quantitative

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research myself, but this is just
a matter of pulling together a body of

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research that nobody else has really pulled
together quiet the way I have. I

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won't say much about this, but
I just want to chime in because I've

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really approached my research from a qualitative
advantage point to discover how people connect with

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work, and I didn't separate it
according to individual contributors or followers like you're

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talking about. But certainly can see
that there are certain things, like you

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know, cognitive challenge that's really important
for some relationship and social connection to others,

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and these are not at all related
to leadership. It's related to the

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actual what they're actually doing on a
day to day basis. And so I'm

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sure we could talk adnasm about this, but just fascinating kind of looked at

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it differently about this stuff. So
you're visiting with the right guy. I

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like it. I like my company, like my company. Well, one

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of the other things that we talked
about, as you as most of my

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listeners probably know, is I'd like
to have a preliminary conversation with my guests

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before we get on the air,
so we can chat about what it is

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that you really want to talk about
in relation to my topic. And you

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said something interesting that I want to
bring up for our listeners. You said,

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it's not enough just to please the
boss when it comes down to followership

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and individual contribution. Why not.
Well, basically, if you can please

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the boss and be totally miserable,
you can hate the boss. You can

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hate your co workers, you can
hate the nature of your work. You

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can hate the nature of the culture
and climate the organization. So you know,

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what are you really getting out of
pleasing the boss if you're miserable.

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So really, almost two thirds of
the books that I've written is about how

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to become a satisfied follower, how
to avoid our dissatisfying aspects of organizations that

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we know from research, and it's
also about essentially jobs that followers will really

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like based on the research. And
in addition, the book also talks about

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how to deal with common problems that
followers experience, such as bowling bosses and

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sexual harassers and micromanagers, etc.
So yeah, as an academic, for

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whatever reason to me, I'm part
of a kind of a cadre of organization

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theorists that believes that work should be
self fulfilling, should allows to self actualize,

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should be meaningful, and so it's
not all about cracking the whip all

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the time. So we're the most
productive organization in the region or state or

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whatever, but essentially not only were
productive organization, but we're an organization where

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people really love going to work because
they love their jobs, they love the

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climate, they love their bosses and
colleagues, well again, kindred spirits here,

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doctor Ballin. I really believe in
the importance of finding fulfilling work too,

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and also so pretty much believe that
work can be very much a way

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to self actualize. And of course
I've learned that's not true for everybody wants

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that, but it can be that, and I could not agree more.

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Trying to find a place where you
can actually be who you are and feel

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fulfilled by that and happy about your
contribution is huge, huge, whether you're

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a leader or not. Yeah,
there's some interesting research that exists. It

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came out of MIT that basically shows
that you can give people jobs outside of

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their work to civic organizations all and
they will work much harder than they'll actually

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work on their real job when they're
doing something that is meaningful that makes a

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difference, no question, get no
pay whatsoever, and yet just work their

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heart out for a worthy cause and
meaningful work. Oh. I have contributed

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countless hours of my life, years
of my life doing community service leadership roles

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and for no pay. Completely get
that. Yeah, And you say it

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doesn't make much sense because we so
oftentimes been misled by thinking that people were

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motivated by money. And I've spent
an entire career trying to give in students

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that people aren't just motivated by money, that they're motivated by intrinsically satisfying work.

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And one of the sayings I use
in classes, what you want to

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do is what make work as much
like play as possible. That doesn't mean

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you don't hold the people accountable for
getting the job done, but you let

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them do it in a way where
they'll have fun and through enjoyment and delight

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and can find meaning in the word
you know what, doctor ball went.

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Just last night, I was speaking
to a group of women about leadership development,

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and I asked them something about where
what do you find how do you

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find value or meaning in your work? And a bunch of things, what

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up? What does it mean to
be fulfilled? And they think something passion

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and impact, contribution and connection,
all these kinds of things. And not

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once did anybody in that room of
about eighty five people say money. Yeah,

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not once when no one is actually
interesting. After spending like three quarters

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of semester teaching students that money is
not everything, what you actually the research

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actually shows is that you can reintroduce
money and it doesn't hurt intrinsic motivation,

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and that actually added on to meaningful
work and social recognition and feedback and all

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money helps, but we shouldn't be
looking at it as the primary motivator.

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And what's very interesting about the research
is that when people throw money at progressively

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more cognitive difficult tasks, people perform
words. I've seen that same form doing

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that same style and money at and
to do simple tasks. They perform words

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when you're throwing money out them to
perform complex tasks. I think that's incredible.

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Fast fond it is. And on
that note, doctor Baldwin, it's

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already. It's already time for our
first break. It goes so fast.

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I'm Alice Cortez, your host.
We've been on the air with doctor Norman

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Baldwin, who is the professor of
political science at the University of Alabama.

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He's the author of Winning at Following
Secrets to Success, and Supporting Roles.

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He joins us to Day from Tuscaloosa, Alabama. We've been talking a bit

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about what he's been researching around followership
and why. After the break, we're

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going to get into the nitty gritty
details of some of the qualities that employers

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are seeking when looking for followers and
how to cultivate that in them. Stay

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00:16:34.039 --> 00:16:52.080
with us Friend us on Facebook to
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Purpose with Elise Cortez. To reach
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to Elise A. L I s
E at Elise Cortez dot com. Now

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00:18:33.559 --> 00:18:38.000
back to Working on Purpose. Thanks
for staying with us, and welcome back

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00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:41.240
to Working on Purpose if you're just
joining us. My guest is doctor Norman

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00:18:41.319 --> 00:18:45.160
Baldwin, who is Professor of Political
Science at the University of Alabama, where

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he has served as director of Graduate
Programs, Undergraduate Programs, and the Master

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00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:53.519
Public Administration Program. He's the author
of Winning at Following Secrets to Success and

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00:18:53.559 --> 00:18:59.640
Supporting Roles. I'm your host,
Elise Cortez. Okay, So getting us

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right into the content of the follower
piece. What I want to start with

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here for the segment, if we
can, doctor Baldwin, for those people

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out there who are maybe thinking of
themselves, but maybe I should be there.

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I'm supposed to strive to be a
leader. Isn't that where everybody's supposed

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to get to in their career.
What are the advantages of pursuing your career

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without being a leader. Well,
I think the main thing is is it

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gosh, so many low level jobs, even though the parallel level are really

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the most meaningful. It's just like
would you rather be on the air or

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be running the radio station? And
that would I rather be running the university

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or being in the class one I
like to deal with classroom students. My

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father was a microbiologist who wanted to
be in the lab. He didn't want

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to be a dean or department chair, and I think he can go through

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every occupation. A physician wants to
be working with patients day doesn't want to

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be or she doesn't want to be
running a hospital. It's just much more

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meaningful, oftentimes working directly with clients. So the other thing is that I'd

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laugh about is that then you are
a follower, you don't have all the

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ugly responsibilities that a leader has,
in particular having to give people essentially bad

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performance evaluations are good ones that aren't
good enough from the perspective of your employees,

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having to give people assignments they don't
want, denying them pay raises,

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denying them promotions, having the fire
people. You don't have to deal with

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any of that when you're not a
leader. And the truth of the matter

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is, you can actually be an
informal leader have a lot of power because

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you are in fact an expert and
exercise good judgment and know how to work

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well with people. You can be
the informal leader and be calling all the

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shots and avoiding all those ugly responsibilities
of leadership. You are reminding me,

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doctor Baldwin. Over the years,
I've done a lot of leadership development work

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with executives and directors and managers,
etc. And I remember so distinctly I

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was doing at the time. I
was doing a strength Finder workshop developing culture

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and leadership in a technical team,
and we were talking about, you know,

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the stuff that really juices you up
at lightshop, you know, what

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is it that really brings you alive? And I saw him sit in the

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back of the room and I saw
his eyes kind of get kind of big,

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and I said to it, I
didn't. I called his name out

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and said, hey, what's going
on for you? I can see it

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in your face. What's happening?
He said, Oh, my gosh,

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I've really made the realization that I've
been spending all these years cultivating my leadership

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career and I don't want to do
that. What I love it's the tropical

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stuff, right. I want to
be there. I want to be the

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nitty gritty of the of the data
and the architecture. That's what turns me

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on. And I said, I'm
happy and for you that you've discovered that

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for yourself, you know, But
to your point, right, to your

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point, absolutely, yeah. Well, it's interesting. My nephew coaches with

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the Dallas Cowboys. He's a receiver
coach and he is a leader in that

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sense over the receivers. That he
was a former head coach and he enjoyed

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being a head coach. That when
I'm they've interviewed him and asked him about

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his responsibilities. Oh my god,
when you're a head coach with a major

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Division one team, all the people
that are barking at you all the time

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and all the scrutiny that you have
from the contemporary media makes a job just

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unbelievably demanding. And you know,
some people do really well as a head

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coach or a CEO, having very
diverse interest and liking to work day and

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night and not worrying about what's happening
on social media and other people just don't

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have that diverse set of interests and
don't respond as well to the diverse types

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of pressures that leaders have. Well, another thing that was quite interesting to

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me, kind of it's related to
this conversation tangentially that I thought was interesting

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and certainly wanted to share with our
listeners is he started to talk about how

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society seems to ussure people away from
certain jobs that and I know you've got

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a perspective about about why this happens
and kind of the effect that it has

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on people. So what kind of
jobs are seeing as desirable and what aren't.

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Well, it's it's interesting to pull
the research together. I had no

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idea, for example, that certain
jobs like an actuary and a dental hygienist

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and a pharmacist are really very good
jobs for people in the sense that the

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work is interesting, that pays well, the hours are good, you don't

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have to travel. And the thing
that's also fascinating is that to me,

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the very top rated jobs all tend
to be moderately technical, and again,

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these are jobs that pay well,
that are interesting work that have decent hours,

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etc. And engineering jobs, for
example, are consistently rank extremely high.

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Jobs as financial advisors and financial planners
are basically rated highly as our jobs

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as computer systems analysts. And what's
interesting is that these are historically kind of

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male dominant jobs, and it's unfortunate
that historically women have not been socialized to

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go into these different occupations that are
technical in nature. And I think it's

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just one of the great things about
the book is to reveal or what these

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leading jobs are and hopefully that there
is a women are reading the book and

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realizing that maybe how to take a
look at being an engineer. And after

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doing the research, I can tell
you that I never thought of being an

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engineer. I never thought of being
a financial planner. And I wish I

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would have taken a course or two
to expose me to these areas that turn

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out to be terrific jobs that on
the surface I didn't think it'd be that

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great. And of course I would
never think of being an actuary. But

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yeah, I'm curious now even though
we've already had a career. Well,

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I have a fourteen year old daughter, so I am keenly, keenly interested

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in ensuring that she gets the full
breadth of possibility presented to her as options,

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and that isn't segregated and sorted by
gender, tradition, etc. So

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I'm I completely opt into what you're
talking about too. Let's just look at

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all the options and see where things
land. And I do do a lot

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of work with women's leadership groups,
many of which are technical, and they

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are you know, they're kind of
their own camp, their own breed.

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Now, well, I hope this
book. I hope the book is essentially

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read by women. The first people
that I got to endorse the book were

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the first female president of the University
of Alabama and the first and only female

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Chief Justice of the Alabama Spring Court. And you know, you can kind

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of get a quick look over the
book, and you know, if we

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people turn to the back and say, aha, maybe women will appreciate and

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I certainly keep you my fingers crossed
that way. But the other thing I

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want to share with you is there's
some jobs that on the surface are very

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sexy that actually, when you get
right down to it, are not that

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great at jobs for followers. And
that is jobs, for example, as

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a police officer, as a broadcaster, as a newspaper reporter. These are

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all jobs that don't pay well,
that oftentimes cause you to work very difficult

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hours and something like a police officer
needs to say it is a very dangerous

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job. And even broadcasting what you're
into, that's a if you're doing that

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as a career, that is a
It can be a very demanding job.

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And typically broadcasters essentially develop their own
news and small markets that don't pay well.

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They're working evening shifts, in late
night shifts and weekends, and there's

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always somebody that's wanting their job that
they have to compete against. So but

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we think of these jobs, especially
when we watch jobs about people and policing

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organizations that all they're all exciting on
television, but again they're dangerous, they

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work bad hours, and they don't
pay that well. Yeah, yeah,

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well, and I think that's a
really important thing to call out for listeners.

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I Mean, one of the things
that I really enjoy is encouraging people

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to if they're not happy doing what
they're doing, go look for another way

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00:27:04.839 --> 00:27:08.319
to make it to make a living. There's you're gonna you could probably be

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00:27:08.359 --> 00:27:11.920
working well into your sixties and seventies
today because of how longer lifespans are so

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00:27:11.960 --> 00:27:18.799
if you're miserable in something, there's
so many other options. Absolutely well,

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and it's just interesting. We are
kind of seduced and there is probably some

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00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:30.480
sexual socialization that's still going on that
allows us to, I think, not

358
00:27:30.599 --> 00:27:36.240
reach our optimal happiness and contentment at
work. M What do you mean by

359
00:27:36.319 --> 00:27:41.160
that's? Well? And I think
that now we still have professions that are

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predominantly dominantly male or female. And
I think that when there's more gender integration

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00:27:49.839 --> 00:27:53.400
and people are finding their true passion, then uh, you know, people

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are just happier. And that that
means that you know, mena sensive becoming

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00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:03.440
registered nurses and nurse practitioners, and
more women going into into the STEM field

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science, technology, engineering, et
cetera. I got it now, Yes,

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completely agree with that. Yes,
I am really interested in the notion

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of androgyny. The idea for me
and how I look at that is,

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00:28:15.599 --> 00:28:19.680
you know, what can women learn
from men or how can they become or

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associate or enjoy what are seen as
more traditionally characteristic attributes of men and vice

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versa men of women, Because I
think everybody wins when when when you can

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00:28:30.920 --> 00:28:36.240
do that in a way that it
celebrates that permits that I think it's it's

371
00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:40.039
a good thing for all of us. Yeah. Well, the research on

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00:28:40.160 --> 00:28:45.440
women and management, organizations and leadership
is just fascinating. Absolutely, the debates

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00:28:45.480 --> 00:28:52.160
there are so intriguing that that would
probably be another good radio show. I

374
00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:56.359
think we should talk in at least
a year. Women in management and leadership

375
00:28:56.480 --> 00:29:03.480
is just fascinating, and women are
out showing men oftentimes. There's some really

376
00:29:03.519 --> 00:29:07.640
good meta analyses, big review articles
that summarize all the research that show how

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terrific women are in leadership roles.
Yeah, I can be a little bit

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00:29:11.519 --> 00:29:14.960
off topic. I'm going to seck
your way in on that. We're going

379
00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:17.359
to go down a rabbit hole.
But I'd love to talk more about that

380
00:29:17.400 --> 00:29:22.680
as well. But since we are
talking about individual contributors and followership, and

381
00:29:22.759 --> 00:29:25.720
you sort of mentioned that you've got
a whole chapter in the book about this,

382
00:29:26.240 --> 00:29:29.920
for the sake of our listeners who
might be dealing with this, how

383
00:29:29.960 --> 00:29:34.559
can people deal more effectively with a
boring boss or a micromanager? Well,

384
00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:41.079
the micromanager is the one I'd like
to talk to mainly about. It's interesting

385
00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:45.000
people have this sense that if you
just go to the boss and you have

386
00:29:45.039 --> 00:29:48.759
a heart heart conversation about being micromanaged
that you know that you'll connect in the

387
00:29:49.400 --> 00:29:52.559
micromanager boss will back off, and
that's just not true. When you go

388
00:29:52.599 --> 00:29:56.559
and complain to the boss, even
civilly and diplomatically, it just makes the

389
00:29:56.599 --> 00:30:03.720
micromanager want a micromanage even more so. But anyway, you know, I

390
00:30:03.759 --> 00:30:07.319
think that one of the key things
you need to do in dealing with micromanagers

391
00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:11.240
is just like a good parent who
anticipates the needs of their children, you

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00:30:11.279 --> 00:30:17.480
anticipate the needs of your boss and
you become an early person. You meet

393
00:30:17.519 --> 00:30:22.640
those needs before they're they're actually articulated
to you. And uh, you know,

394
00:30:22.680 --> 00:30:26.960
I think we're all have tendencies to
be late on time or early people,

395
00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:30.000
and it's a matter of people that
are on time or late becoming early

396
00:30:30.160 --> 00:30:34.400
people so that the boss isn't bothering
you all the time. But basically,

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00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:41.680
you overcome problems with micromanagers when you
behave consistently perform consistently up to their standards.

398
00:30:42.839 --> 00:30:47.279
So you can't turn in good work
one day and then sloppy work the

399
00:30:47.319 --> 00:30:52.559
next that you when you see the
consistency, when the micromanagers sees the consistency,

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00:30:52.599 --> 00:30:55.160
then they back off. But there
are a lot of a lot of

401
00:30:55.160 --> 00:30:59.799
different things you can do. Find
simple things is when your micromanager does back

402
00:30:59.839 --> 00:31:06.920
off, you show appreciation, You
reinforce any kind of positive behavior, and

403
00:31:07.559 --> 00:31:11.920
yeah, and you don't fight your
way to freedom. Sometimes you even have

404
00:31:11.000 --> 00:31:17.759
to develop an upfront agreement where you
have a written understanding with the boss that

405
00:31:17.920 --> 00:31:21.559
you're going to check back together,
check in every two weeks or once a

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00:31:21.559 --> 00:31:25.720
month or whatever. In contrast to
this everyday stuff that micromanagers can get caught

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00:31:25.799 --> 00:31:30.079
up in, and I hate to
say it, in dealing with all these

408
00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:34.440
problematic bosses that I write about,
one of the things that I instruct with

409
00:31:34.480 --> 00:31:38.279
every one of them is when all
else sales, it's important to move on,

410
00:31:40.920 --> 00:31:45.160
and that they're just we have natural
followership styles that are sometimes just incompatible

411
00:31:45.640 --> 00:31:52.119
with the leadership style the micromanager or
bowling boss, etc. So moving on

412
00:31:52.319 --> 00:31:57.319
is clearly always one of the options. You know. One of the things

413
00:31:57.359 --> 00:32:00.079
I just was thinking about as you
were talking here, doctor Baldwin, is

414
00:32:00.119 --> 00:32:05.319
just today I was doing a coaching
conversation with a leader that I'm working with

415
00:32:05.400 --> 00:32:08.000
him. We were talking about delegation
and how hard that can be for it

416
00:32:08.039 --> 00:32:10.400
because she says, you know,
I know how I like things, and

417
00:32:10.440 --> 00:32:14.200
I feel like it's just easier if
I just go do something myself. And

418
00:32:14.200 --> 00:32:16.039
I said, yeah, are you
going to develop your skills? So you're

419
00:32:16.079 --> 00:32:21.000
going to have to learn how to
delegate well and coach and teach people how

420
00:32:21.039 --> 00:32:23.240
to do the job that you want
them to do, and then support them

421
00:32:23.319 --> 00:32:27.799
so they can bring up their skills. And probably in the process of doing

422
00:32:27.799 --> 00:32:30.200
that, you know, until you
gain comfort, you're probably going to be

423
00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:32.240
a micromanager. And she said,
yeah, I've been. I've been accused

424
00:32:32.279 --> 00:32:37.240
of that and anyway, so it's
interesting when you start talking about this stuff

425
00:32:37.279 --> 00:32:38.400
and I start thinking about the work
that I do on the other side with

426
00:32:38.519 --> 00:32:43.880
leaders, what's happening there. And
I love what you're saying about how how

427
00:32:43.960 --> 00:32:49.759
followers can teach and encourage and reinforce
the behaviors that they want in their leaders.

428
00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:55.319
That's gorgeous. They glab your way
to freedom. I wasn't quite going

429
00:32:55.359 --> 00:33:01.880
there, but I like that too, Okay. I like that you have

430
00:33:01.920 --> 00:33:07.880
these unexpected pearls that come up from
from from the conversation. One of the

431
00:33:07.880 --> 00:33:09.279
other things that you and I talked
about on the phone briefly. When I

432
00:33:09.319 --> 00:33:13.359
was asking you about some of the
things that you really like to talk about,

433
00:33:13.759 --> 00:33:20.640
you talked about exceptions to research,
and when in talking about followership,

434
00:33:21.480 --> 00:33:27.400
I'm passing on essentially what most of
the research is saying. But that doesn't

435
00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:31.960
mean that anyone individual is an exception. And I write in my book about

436
00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:36.839
how there's certain people that they are
meant to be lawyers. I think for

437
00:33:36.920 --> 00:33:39.720
most people who go on for a
lot of people, not most, a

438
00:33:39.759 --> 00:33:42.880
lot of people that go on to
law school, they're really not meant to

439
00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:46.000
be lawyers. But there's some people
who absolutely and equivocally should be a lawyer.

440
00:33:46.400 --> 00:33:50.559
Same thing with newspaper reporters. Even
though that is ranked dead last,

441
00:33:50.680 --> 00:33:54.400
is an attractive job. They're people
that are ideally fit to be a newspaper

442
00:33:54.400 --> 00:34:00.160
reporter. So I always teach that
in the absence of complete information, what's

443
00:34:00.160 --> 00:34:05.079
your best generalization? And so the
book is full of the generalizations. But

444
00:34:05.160 --> 00:34:08.360
when you have complete information, you
can break all the rules or go against

445
00:34:08.400 --> 00:34:14.480
what the empirical research says. Got
it. That's so important, right,

446
00:34:14.480 --> 00:34:16.079
because what we would not want to
do on this show, we would would

447
00:34:16.079 --> 00:34:19.440
not want to leave. Those listeners
are like, but I do want to

448
00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:22.960
be a newspaper reporter, thinking that
they shouldn't pursue that. So absolutely they

449
00:34:22.960 --> 00:34:29.320
need to pursue it. It's interesting
when my nephew coaches with the Dallas Cowboys.

450
00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:34.280
He basically got a nice by out
as a head coach at the university

451
00:34:34.280 --> 00:34:37.760
and he didn't have to work another
day of his life. However, he

452
00:34:37.800 --> 00:34:42.679
loves coaching and at the moment he
could get another coaching job, he was.

453
00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:45.960
He was back in it. He
was meant to be a coach,

454
00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:47.599
and even though it was a very, very hard job, it's perfect for

455
00:34:47.679 --> 00:34:53.920
him. I get that. It's
a beautiful thing when people find the work

456
00:34:54.039 --> 00:34:59.960
that they really are supposed to be
doing suited to do. It's so beautiful.

457
00:35:00.639 --> 00:35:04.119
Yeah, for everybody, for everybody, for them, and for everybody

458
00:35:04.119 --> 00:35:06.880
that they interact with, their families, their communities, the people they work

459
00:35:06.920 --> 00:35:12.280
with. Everybody wins right well.
And it's interesting to ask students and people

460
00:35:12.280 --> 00:35:16.679
what motivates them. And the thing
that's interesting they always think that something hard

461
00:35:16.760 --> 00:35:21.800
motivates. Somebody said, well,
think about when you're doing something you really

462
00:35:22.079 --> 00:35:24.679
enjoy and you're put in all sorts
of hours and going to bed late because

463
00:35:24.719 --> 00:35:29.559
you can't put something down. So
that's how we want work to be.

464
00:35:29.880 --> 00:35:32.599
Work as much like your play as
possible. And I think, and I've

465
00:35:32.639 --> 00:35:37.000
taught this forever, is that so
many of the problems of organizations are solved

466
00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:42.679
just by hiring the right person.
And I don't know what the percentage would

467
00:35:42.679 --> 00:35:45.800
be, but I'd say eighty nine
percent of problems are solved when you hire

468
00:35:45.800 --> 00:35:50.679
a person that is perfectly suited to
the job. They love the job,

469
00:35:51.159 --> 00:35:54.159
They're going to work hard because the
work is so intrinsically satisfying, exciting and

470
00:35:54.239 --> 00:36:00.320
stimulating and fun. I completely agree
with that. I'm right on board.

471
00:36:00.360 --> 00:36:05.800
I could you and I are speak
in the same language. It's a good

472
00:36:05.800 --> 00:36:08.360
thing. Yeah, we might have
read the same book, yeah, and

473
00:36:08.360 --> 00:36:10.559
some of the same books to get
to where we both are in terms of

474
00:36:10.559 --> 00:36:15.599
our research. But here we are
already time for another break. I'm Alice

475
00:36:15.639 --> 00:36:17.320
Cortez, your host. We've BREU
on the air with doctor Norman Baldwin,

476
00:36:17.360 --> 00:36:22.440
who was professor of political science at
the University of Alabama. He's the author

477
00:36:22.440 --> 00:36:25.159
of Winning at Following Secrets to Success, and Supporting Roles. He joins us

478
00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:29.239
today from Tuscaloosa, Alabama. After
the break, we're gonna get into the

479
00:36:29.280 --> 00:36:32.599
nitty gritty details of followers styles and
qualities employers seek. Stay with us.

480
00:36:45.559 --> 00:36:50.679
Friend us on Facebook to keep up
with what's empowering the world. Voice America

481
00:36:50.719 --> 00:36:57.840
Empowerment. Alice Cortez is a speaker
and engagement and development catalyst. She designs

482
00:36:57.840 --> 00:37:02.159
and delivers professional development, leader ship
and engagement workshops and can bring her expertise

483
00:37:02.239 --> 00:37:07.920
to your organization. She will help
ignite meaningful development within your workforce that will

484
00:37:07.000 --> 00:37:13.039
increase employee engagement, performance and retention. To learn more or to invite Elise

485
00:37:13.079 --> 00:37:17.400
to speak to your organization, please
visit her at www dot Elise Cortez dot

486
00:37:17.440 --> 00:37:22.400
com. She would welcome the opportunity
to help get your employees working on purpose.

487
00:37:23.480 --> 00:37:28.679
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493
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You lage follow us on Twitter for
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499
00:38:52.239 --> 00:38:57.159
This is Working on Purpose with Alice
Cortez. To reach our program today,

500
00:38:57.239 --> 00:39:01.039
please call into one triple eight three
four six nine one four one. Again

501
00:39:01.119 --> 00:39:06.440
that's one triple eight three four six
nine one four one. You may also

502
00:39:06.559 --> 00:39:13.960
send an email to Elise ali Se
at Elise Cortez dot com. Now back

503
00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:19.760
to Working on Purpose. Thanks for
staying with us, and welcome back to

504
00:39:19.800 --> 00:39:22.519
Working on Purpose if you're just tuning
in. My guest is doctor Norman Baldwin,

505
00:39:22.559 --> 00:39:25.960
who was professor of political science at
the University of Alabama, where he

506
00:39:27.000 --> 00:39:30.760
has served as Director of Graduate Programs
undergraduate programs and the Master of Public Administration

507
00:39:30.800 --> 00:39:36.360
program. He is the author of
Winning at Following Secrets to Success in supporting

508
00:39:36.440 --> 00:39:39.280
Roles. I'm your host, Elise
Cortez. So for this last segment here

509
00:39:39.320 --> 00:39:42.639
if we can, doctor Baldwin,
I really want to give our listeners some

510
00:39:42.719 --> 00:39:45.199
really good meat from your book.
So first thing I want to get to

511
00:39:45.400 --> 00:39:50.199
is you talk about followers styles in
your book. Fascinating. I didn't even

512
00:39:50.239 --> 00:39:53.880
consider that. So how many are
there and how would you briefly describe them?

513
00:39:54.000 --> 00:40:00.880
Well, there are five different dot
comomies, and the economies are,

514
00:40:00.039 --> 00:40:07.039
for example, a conformist follower versus
an individualistic follower, uh, an active

515
00:40:07.079 --> 00:40:12.920
follower versus a more passive follower.
We've got followers that are also very pragmatic

516
00:40:13.599 --> 00:40:19.880
versus those that are kind of dreamers
are less practical. And then we have

517
00:40:20.039 --> 00:40:25.199
followers that are essentially very self oriented
versus altruistic. So I think I leave

518
00:40:25.320 --> 00:40:29.920
get all those. I guess they're
yeah, that's about ten uh yeah,

519
00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:36.239
active followers and passive followers also,
so and these are these are the followership

520
00:40:36.280 --> 00:40:42.000
styles that occur in the in the
research and in the qualitative types of research.

521
00:40:42.079 --> 00:40:50.199
Also so and and we're fairly self
explanatory. And you know, I

522
00:40:50.239 --> 00:40:53.320
hate to say that they're alienated followers
and passive followers, but they just are.

523
00:40:53.440 --> 00:40:57.599
But one thing I talk about is
that certain followers that are passive are

524
00:40:57.639 --> 00:41:05.039
really not passive. That's symptomatic of
some bad experience as an organization, and

525
00:41:05.159 --> 00:41:08.360
I think I kind of alienated follower. It may be totally symptomatic, but

526
00:41:08.719 --> 00:41:13.079
in the short run, there are
people that are clearly followers that are alienated,

527
00:41:13.199 --> 00:41:17.119
not committed to the organization. So
it strikes me as I'm listening to

528
00:41:17.199 --> 00:41:21.960
you talk about those, because I've
got I've discovered fifteen modes of engagement in

529
00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:24.840
relation how people experience meaning in their
work and how it relates to their sense

530
00:41:24.840 --> 00:41:30.159
of identity, and they're mutable.
So it strikes me that these follower styles

531
00:41:30.320 --> 00:41:35.639
are probably also mutable, depending on
the boss, the work environment, Yes,

532
00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:40.000
no, or do you I think
you're onto something. I still think

533
00:41:40.039 --> 00:41:45.119
that the passivity and the alienated follower, that that's probably a symptom. That

534
00:41:45.159 --> 00:41:50.840
the question is have they been alienated
and passive for such a long time that

535
00:41:50.880 --> 00:41:52.480
we can't do anything about it,
We can't change them. But I would

536
00:41:52.519 --> 00:42:00.840
say things like being an active follower
and committed following a pragmative and self ware

537
00:42:00.840 --> 00:42:05.400
in or autuistics. Some of those
things are just part of our personalities and

538
00:42:05.400 --> 00:42:09.079
they're very difficult to change. Uh, they're givens. And we're probably smart

539
00:42:09.199 --> 00:42:14.880
in terms of thinking of those being
givens up to a certain point. Yeah,

540
00:42:16.320 --> 00:42:20.960
because I certainly know that in my
research, I think there are tendencies

541
00:42:21.119 --> 00:42:24.280
for people to go to want to
experience a certain mode of engagement. That's

542
00:42:24.320 --> 00:42:30.320
what they look for because of their
of their personalities, their value sets,

543
00:42:30.320 --> 00:42:34.199
what they want from work, etc. But according to the environment they find

544
00:42:34.199 --> 00:42:38.679
themselves, and sometimes it does change. My big deal in writing this book

545
00:42:38.800 --> 00:42:43.599
is that, you know, I
present the ideal qualities of the follower that

546
00:42:43.639 --> 00:42:49.159
we'll talk about shortly, and then
I have a chapter on how to change

547
00:42:49.239 --> 00:42:54.639
to really aspire to and integrate these
qualities into your behavior repertoire. But then

548
00:42:54.679 --> 00:42:58.159
I go on and say, hey, look at somebody just can't change.

549
00:42:58.800 --> 00:43:02.159
And yeah, consequence, what we
want to do is put you in organization

550
00:43:02.320 --> 00:43:08.639
cultures and climates and with leadership styles
that are compatible with your natural followership style.

551
00:43:10.320 --> 00:43:15.639
Yeah, we're just trying to get
the match right. Yeah, well,

552
00:43:15.639 --> 00:43:19.079
what are those five qualities that employees
are looking for in great followers?

553
00:43:19.280 --> 00:43:23.440
What are these? Yeah? There
are three actually that kind of separate out

554
00:43:24.760 --> 00:43:28.960
the top one. And these actually
surprised me before I did the research.

555
00:43:29.000 --> 00:43:34.480
I wouldn't necessarily guess these. But
the number one quality is effective communicator.

556
00:43:35.119 --> 00:43:37.400
And here we're talking about, you
know, just people communicating in a way

557
00:43:37.400 --> 00:43:44.079
that's understandable, that's accurate, that's
timely, and not excessive. And the

558
00:43:44.119 --> 00:43:50.239
bottom line is bosses and organizations are
not wanting followers to be seen and not

559
00:43:50.400 --> 00:43:53.360
heard. That's far from the truth, because no superiors want suppordinates that are

560
00:43:53.400 --> 00:43:57.760
open, that speak up, their
offer opinions, and are persuasive. And

561
00:43:57.800 --> 00:44:00.800
I also talk about followers who are
effective communicators that speak up and shut up

562
00:44:00.800 --> 00:44:07.039
and listen. But the other the
second leading quality is as active. People

563
00:44:07.079 --> 00:44:10.320
want active followers, not passive followers. They want followers that don't wait for

564
00:44:10.400 --> 00:44:15.440
directions. They're proactive, they're participators, are energetic, their initiators. And

565
00:44:15.480 --> 00:44:21.599
then the third leading quality is interpersonally
skillful. And here we're just talking about

566
00:44:21.719 --> 00:44:29.039
bosses and management loving subordinates who are
socially intelligent. Here we're talking about individuals

567
00:44:29.039 --> 00:44:34.480
that are diplomatic or tactful, they're
friendly, they interact, and they're skilled

568
00:44:34.480 --> 00:44:39.760
at building networks. So those are
the three leading. The other two qualities

569
00:44:39.800 --> 00:44:43.519
actually I thought would have been high
on the list that are part of the

570
00:44:43.559 --> 00:44:47.559
top five is being responsible and being
a team player. And it was interesting

571
00:44:47.639 --> 00:44:52.880
that I thought I actually had responsible
as the number two in my mind,

572
00:44:52.920 --> 00:44:55.719
but it actually comes in as fourth
and team player as fifth, and then

573
00:44:55.800 --> 00:44:59.679
six. Actually, if you're looking
at the top half dozen, we're talking

574
00:44:59.679 --> 00:45:08.159
about, interestingly enough, followers being
flexible and adaptable. So okay, so

575
00:45:08.239 --> 00:45:13.880
I have never heard of these qualities
before for followers, they make complete sense

576
00:45:13.920 --> 00:45:17.280
to me in the work that I've
been doing over the years. How you

577
00:45:17.280 --> 00:45:21.559
did mention something about you've got a
whole chapter devoted and obviously we don't have

578
00:45:21.559 --> 00:45:24.239
time to hear about the whole chapter, but how can followers at least start

579
00:45:24.280 --> 00:45:30.159
to cultivate some of these qualities?
Well, you know, it's it's interesting.

580
00:45:31.880 --> 00:45:37.440
The chapter is kind of about how
you change habits. And first of

581
00:45:37.480 --> 00:45:42.039
all, there are all sorts of
ways to get the technical information to know

582
00:45:42.199 --> 00:45:47.000
how to be essentially a more effective
communicator, active and impersonally skillful. And

583
00:45:47.239 --> 00:45:52.159
there are junior colleges and universities and
colleges that are close by where you can

584
00:45:52.199 --> 00:45:57.239
take courses, and if you can't
get to them in terms of accessibility,

585
00:45:58.400 --> 00:46:04.360
you can take online courses. And
now what you have for absolutely free from

586
00:46:04.400 --> 00:46:09.039
the best universities in the country or
what are called these mookes massive online open

587
00:46:09.159 --> 00:46:15.159
courses that you can take for absolutely
free. And I know when I was

588
00:46:15.199 --> 00:46:20.320
in graduate school, I took a
course essentially in interpersonal dynamics. It really

589
00:46:20.400 --> 00:46:25.840
hits on this idea of being interpersonally
skillful and it was life changing in terms

590
00:46:25.880 --> 00:46:30.880
of giving me skills. So I
wasn't so obnoxious the way I communicated with

591
00:46:30.920 --> 00:46:37.519
people and interacted with people. But
anyway, so always encouraged people basically to

592
00:46:37.079 --> 00:46:44.840
pursue the educational opportunities to become more
effective communicator and interpersonally dynamic and less passive,

593
00:46:44.880 --> 00:46:50.639
et cetera. But then they're just
kind of dynamics. Other dynamics such

594
00:46:50.639 --> 00:46:55.360
as you know, finding the triggers
of bad habits that keep you from becoming

595
00:46:55.360 --> 00:47:00.840
the ideal follower and developing substitute behaviors. Once you find the triggers that go

596
00:47:00.920 --> 00:47:07.039
against, for example, the behavior
that you're wanting to get rid of and

597
00:47:07.280 --> 00:47:10.480
the new behavior wanting to develop.
But there's a lot of things you do

598
00:47:10.519 --> 00:47:15.239
if you want to be interpersonally skillful
and more active. You hang around with

599
00:47:15.280 --> 00:47:19.960
people that are interpersonally skillful and you
learn from them. You hang around people

600
00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:23.239
that are proactive people and effective communicators, etc. But there are, you

601
00:47:23.280 --> 00:47:27.880
know, kind of a lot of
a lot of different tricks to bring it

602
00:47:27.920 --> 00:47:30.079
about the change. And again,
I really love the idea of starting with

603
00:47:30.199 --> 00:47:36.360
taking a course and learning these skills. That is great. I got to

604
00:47:36.360 --> 00:47:38.000
see two things what you said.
They're really quick. First, I cannot

605
00:47:38.079 --> 00:47:44.280
imagine you being obnoxious. I just
can't imagine that. It really hard to

606
00:47:44.320 --> 00:47:46.360
get my head around it. Well, that's good, then my course succeeded

607
00:47:46.360 --> 00:47:51.400
back in graduate school. Yeah,
it's just impossible. And I've you know,

608
00:47:51.440 --> 00:47:53.760
I've worked. I've had the privilege
of working with really fantastic leaders over

609
00:47:53.760 --> 00:47:57.199
the years who told me some similar
things. I look at them today,

610
00:47:57.199 --> 00:47:59.760
I'm like, you've got to be
kidding me. I can't imagine. So

611
00:48:00.239 --> 00:48:01.719
clearly, here's the good news for
anybody listening, right, we can all

612
00:48:01.800 --> 00:48:06.559
learn, we can all change,
We can work on these things. The

613
00:48:06.559 --> 00:48:09.000
other thing that really strikes me that
you're talking about is just how important it

614
00:48:09.079 --> 00:48:15.760
is to be able to work at
getting conscious of these kinds of behaviors and

615
00:48:15.840 --> 00:48:19.679
tendencies and us to reveal them to
ourselves, because so much of how we

616
00:48:19.719 --> 00:48:22.199
live our life is very automated,
right, We just have an automated response

617
00:48:22.239 --> 00:48:25.159
to things, and we don't think
about how we can do something different,

618
00:48:25.199 --> 00:48:30.800
and so finding a way to get
present to that is the start. Yeah,

619
00:48:30.400 --> 00:48:35.840
I agree with you, But again, there are some people that just

620
00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:38.000
can't change. And that's why one
of the things to talk about in the

621
00:48:38.000 --> 00:48:45.960
book is pursuing employment in organizations that
are compatible with your personality. Yeah.

622
00:48:45.599 --> 00:48:50.440
Absolutely, you know, I talk
a lot to my students here at Southern

623
00:48:50.480 --> 00:48:53.119
Methis University about opting into the right
culture, the kind of job that is

624
00:48:53.119 --> 00:48:58.199
just going to let you be you. I mean, you're I do get

625
00:48:58.239 --> 00:49:00.159
you, and I kind of misspoke
earlier. You're right. Not we can't

626
00:49:00.159 --> 00:49:05.719
all change, and we can change
less as we get older. Oftentimes it

627
00:49:05.719 --> 00:49:07.679
seems like, so I guess I
need to be careful about how I say

628
00:49:07.719 --> 00:49:13.119
that we can learn, But there
are certain things that are that get really

629
00:49:13.119 --> 00:49:19.000
hard to change in us, right, absolutely. I got to ask this

630
00:49:19.079 --> 00:49:21.840
question here. I've never heard this
before either. And you talk about this

631
00:49:21.920 --> 00:49:25.119
in your book too, the notion
of havens and hades. What are you

632
00:49:25.159 --> 00:49:30.880
get not there? Well, I
just have it a couple of chapters on

633
00:49:30.719 --> 00:49:36.119
the havens where you fit best and
the havens where you don't fit. It's

634
00:49:36.239 --> 00:49:42.000
like, I would bet your natural
followership style is to be active. Would

635
00:49:42.039 --> 00:49:45.400
that be correct? You're not a
passive person, I'm afraid not, don't,

636
00:49:45.719 --> 00:49:51.920
okay, And for somebody like you
who's an active follower, you,

637
00:49:52.039 --> 00:49:55.480
for example, would work very well
and very under task going it leaders and

638
00:49:55.599 --> 00:50:00.320
task going a cultures and climates you'd
probably love working on or a transformational leader,

639
00:50:00.920 --> 00:50:07.079
and all the leaders early democratic,
very oriented towards allowing people to participate.

640
00:50:07.599 --> 00:50:12.960
In turn. You know, you
probably wouldn't work very well under an

641
00:50:12.960 --> 00:50:15.639
autocratic or an authoritative leader in culture. You probably don't work as well in

642
00:50:15.679 --> 00:50:22.559
bureaucratic cultures. Correct, So it's
just a matter it's saying telling you to

643
00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:29.840
steer clear of bureaucracy and autocrat yes, and pursue those transformational leaders who have

644
00:50:29.920 --> 00:50:35.079
a democratic leadership style. Also,
and are very task oriented. Yeah,

645
00:50:35.119 --> 00:50:37.760
that's where I do my best work. Well, we're coming really close to

646
00:50:37.760 --> 00:50:39.920
the end here, doctor Baldwin.
I want to I want to get one

647
00:50:39.920 --> 00:50:43.760
more question in here that I want
to make sure and ask for our listeners.

648
00:50:44.760 --> 00:50:47.599
So, what what can leaders do
in today's workforce to more effectively support

649
00:50:47.639 --> 00:50:52.760
their followers? These are the people
they count on to execute. Yeah,

650
00:50:52.960 --> 00:50:58.199
they need that. There's just such
a wealth of information out there that can

651
00:50:58.280 --> 00:51:02.239
tell them how to satisfy their employees. And it's a matter of tapping into

652
00:51:02.280 --> 00:51:07.920
that. There are thousands and thousands
of findings on what brings employees job satisfaction.

653
00:51:08.360 --> 00:51:13.960
There are thousands and thousands of findings
on why people turn over, why

654
00:51:14.039 --> 00:51:16.719
people are absent from work. Uh, you know, why people are unproductive

655
00:51:16.719 --> 00:51:22.400
and unmotivated, And it is so
easy to access contemporarily and these there are

656
00:51:22.400 --> 00:51:28.039
basically these review articles that pull it
all together, that tell you exactly what

657
00:51:28.079 --> 00:51:32.039
to do and what to avoid.
And so it's just a matter of exposing

658
00:51:32.079 --> 00:51:36.639
yourself to this. Uh. You
know, our leaders have to have a

659
00:51:36.679 --> 00:51:38.960
learning attitude and they have to be
willing to do things that are different.

660
00:51:39.519 --> 00:51:44.960
But in general, I also point
my finger to academia. Academia is in

661
00:51:45.119 --> 00:51:50.280
an area of management, public administration. Business administration is too oriented towards teaching

662
00:51:50.280 --> 00:51:55.800
people to be leaders. You don't
see followership chapters. You don't see chapters

663
00:51:55.880 --> 00:52:02.119
very often on job satisfaction, dissatisfaction, etc. And so we in academia

664
00:52:02.199 --> 00:52:08.440
need to start including followership and writing
about how you really satisfy your employees instead

665
00:52:08.440 --> 00:52:12.920
of telling leaders all the time how
to lead, how to motivate, how

666
00:52:12.960 --> 00:52:16.280
to communicate effectively. All those things
are good, but there just needs to

667
00:52:16.360 --> 00:52:22.800
be academically a little stronger focus on
followership. I completely agree. When you

668
00:52:22.840 --> 00:52:24.880
just look at the numbers, you
can see there's a lot more followers than

669
00:52:24.880 --> 00:52:30.239
there are leaders. So underserved population. I think, well, here we

670
00:52:30.239 --> 00:52:31.679
are at the end. Really quick. I want to thank you doctor Baldwin

671
00:52:31.760 --> 00:52:36.280
for coming and joining us. Thank
you so much for lending your passion,

672
00:52:36.320 --> 00:52:39.880
your perspective. Well, thank you, it's been very enjoyable. And tell

673
00:52:39.960 --> 00:52:44.079
us if you can quickly for our
listeners, how can they contact you?

674
00:52:44.079 --> 00:52:49.119
How can they find you online?
Okay, I'm at. I've got a

675
00:52:49.159 --> 00:52:58.679
website that's involved when dot people,
dot UA, dot edu perfect, and

676
00:52:58.840 --> 00:53:02.960
that also at that site you can
connect to information about the book great and

677
00:53:04.119 --> 00:53:08.239
also my email addresses in Baldwin at
UA dot du perfect. Thank you,

678
00:53:08.320 --> 00:53:12.239
doctor Baldwin. All right, here
we are at the end of the hour,

679
00:53:12.400 --> 00:53:15.360
so join us next week when we
talk with Jared Grossman, who is

680
00:53:15.400 --> 00:53:19.840
the co founder of Muscle Prodigy and
a sought after performance consultant. We'll be

681
00:53:19.880 --> 00:53:22.360
talking about the mindset he teaches clients
to perform with their best in business and

682
00:53:22.440 --> 00:53:27.000
in life, His take on motivation
at work, and how to achieve fulfillment

683
00:53:27.039 --> 00:53:30.599
in life and work using his eight
part process. See you then, remember

684
00:53:30.639 --> 00:53:32.159
that work is at least one third
of our life, So let's work on

685
00:53:32.239 --> 00:53:43.480
purpose. We hope you've enjoyed this
week's program. Be sure to tune into

686
00:53:43.559 --> 00:53:49.079
Working on Purpose featuring your host Alice
Cortez every Wednesday at six pm Eastern time

687
00:53:49.199 --> 00:53:53.119
freepm Pacific Time on the Voice America
Empowerment Channel. This week, find your

688
00:53:53.159 --> 00:54:01.320
life's purpose at work. We were