Creating the New Workplace Through Purpose

WEBVTT

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There are some people that make their
work just another thing they have to do,

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and there are those that make their
work something that they want to do.

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Welcome to Working on Purpose with your
host Elise Cortez. In our program,

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we provide guidance and inspiration from those
people who have found deeper meaning and

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personal connection to their work life.
It's beyond nine to five. It's working

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on Purpose. Now Here is your
host, Elise Cortez. I'm your host,

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Elise Cortez, joining you live from
Dallas, Texas, which is home

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based for me. This program is
all about helping people more meaningfully and productively

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connect with their work and equipping leaders
to cultivate meaning and purpose in the workplace

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to elicit passion inspired contribution, innovation, and persevering performance. So I seek

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out and bring on guests of a
particular perspective, experience, or expertise that

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I think contributes to this conversation.
And as a management consultant and social scientist,

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I drawn the meaning and work and
identity research I've been doing over the

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last fifteen years, as well as
my experience consulting, speaking and developing workforces

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across the globe. And finally,
in this introduction, If you hear anything

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that stirs you and you're interested in
joining the movement toward living with passion and

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working on purpose, you can reach
out to me via email a lease at

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least cortez dot com and check into
just reaching information about what we're up to

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here, joining a catch fire online
inspiration, accountability or mastermind community, or

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being part of my freshly minted purpose
driven leadership programs for individuals or companies.

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You can also find me on Facebook, LinkedIn and also send me a tweet

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to at least Cortez and then onto
the show itself. Last week, if

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you missed the live show, you
can always catch it recorded me a recorded

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podcast. We were on the Yarosharon
Dematia. She's the founder of the AIM

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Project and is also a connection and
communication expert, human re engineer, and

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storyteller. She had just come back
from a trip to South Africa in service

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of her project, and we talked
about that trip, how the AIM Project

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was born and why it is critical
and addressing today's thorniest problems, including how

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we see ourselves in relation to the
world and how they gets manifested in things

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like depression and suicide. Things like
that no small topics there with us this

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week is Phil so Talk. He
is the founder of DPMC North America,

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I management consultancy specializing admission driven management
and virtuous leadership. He also founded and

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helps manage a Venture Source Corporation,
a global supplier of engineered products to the

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automotive industry with offices in the US, China, Spain, and Mexico.

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Today, we'll be talking about why
purpose is such an important point of management

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in today's business world and the work
Keenest team are doing to help companies manage

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by mission and virtuous leadership. He
joined it today from West Michigan. Phil,

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Welcome to Working on Purpose. Thank
you a Lisa. It's a pleasure

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to be here. It's so great. You know, I'm so enjoying this

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whole journey. And I you and
I found each other on LinkedIn sometime back,

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right, so I think we were
both interested in the whole purpose space

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and you glimpse what I was up
to, what you were up to,

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and I said, we've got to
get on air and talk about this.

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So thanks for saying yes, Well, let's be clear, I think I

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found you. Okay, okay,
good stuff going on out there. Oh,

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I love it well, and there
I have to also say, seeking

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of going on out there, I
love you your Midwestern accent. It's just

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fantastic. I didn't know we had
accents, but absolutely it's my favorite.

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Yeah. Yeah, I'm from the
Northwest. We don't have accents over there.

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Everybody else has one. So well, let's get into it, Phil,

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We've got a lot to talk about
it in a showy amount of time,

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and I want to just really start. It's it's kind of perplexing.

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I find myself thinking about this quite
a bit. It seems to me that

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purpose is everywhere. So let's start
by just talking about why is purpose such

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a buzzword today? What's going on
in the world that calls forth its presence?

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It's everywhere, it certainly is,
and there is a lot of buzz

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So much is being said about purpose
and that if we discover our why,

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you know, and put that into
action, both individually and perhaps with others,

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that I just be I don't know, a holy grail of sorts,

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right, unlocking potential and to finding
fulfillment and meaning in our lives. So

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it's all, it's all very inspiring
and to a large extent, a buzz

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i believe is justified because we now
see a confluence of science and evidence telling

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us this that purpose really does matter, and that if organizations and people for

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that matter, grasp this and apply
it, they can do great things.

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So there's no shortage really of thought
leaders out there, and there's more and

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more every day pointing us in this
direction and pointing us towards this idea that

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organizations with a sense of purpose beyond
you know what we were taught in B

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school, this idea of creating shareholder
value, that when you go beyond this,

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those are the ones that endure in
the long haul. So I think

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that's good. I think, in
fact, even Michael Porter recently went as

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far as to say, I think
it was him that aiming for a higher

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societal purpose through business could reinvent capitalism. Right now, that's a big idea

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and one that could transform the world, or at least I think how we

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interact within it. So I'd say
that's worth paying attention to. I would

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too, what a great way to
start, And I want to try me

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do a couple of things that you
said, but let me make sure and

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presence a couple more things. First, beautiful opening fill and I just so

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appreciate how you've situated purpose and why
it's such a focal point today. And

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I love what you said about the
confluence of science and research and really you

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know, business imperatives and business financial
information that really demonstrate and illustrate the importance

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of it. So yeah, we're
right there with you. That's really where

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we're at today too. But go
ahead, sorry, no, no,

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that's great. That's I wanted to
get into that next. And so let's

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really make sure that our listeners understand
this. Whether they're an individual contributor considering

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this thing called purpose, whether they're
a leader trying to develop their organizations.

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Why should companies and their leaders care
about purpose? Well, first of all,

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the evidence is in right, I
mean, organizations with purpose have been

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proven to perform or outperform their peers. I think if I think that Jim

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Collins study years ago was on the
order of like six to one that they

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outperform their peers over the long haul. So we know that there is a

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very high correlation between purpose and profitability
and companies. But let's think about this

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for a second. Let's unpack that
because almost one hundred percent of organizations today

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have like a mission or a purpose. Some true North articulated and communicated that

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with this one hundred percent adoption,
we should be knocking it out of the

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park as it relates to performance and
great places to work. But at least,

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you know the number, roughly sixty
five sixty six percent of our workforce,

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according to research, remains ambivalent,
uninterested, unmotivated. So why is

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this? Why are we not making
progress in captivating our teams? You know,

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if you look at the data,
I don't think. I don't think

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the data is suggesting that we need
more companies with compelling purpose statements. I

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think, I really think what the
data is telling us, if we read

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between the lines, is that we
are actually failing to make the all important

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connection between the purpose of our organizations
and the hearts and minds of those who

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make up our organization. That idea
has been validated. Harvard validated that,

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I think within the last couple of
years with a study they did that suggested

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simply articulating and communicating purpose to your
teams does very little. Right, That's

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not going to get us where we
need to go. So there's more that's

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required. There's really quite a bit
that's required for transformative change and organizations.

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They did a study I think it
was again done by Harvard that talked about

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purpose clarity. I don't know if
you've heard about that idea, but it's

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just it's really just a measure of
how deeply purpose is internalized within the whole

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of an organization. And then we've
built upon that and found that this idea

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of purpose clarity, we like to
refer to it as unity. We call

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it unity, and in that sense, we mean it's a phenomenon that elevates

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the relationship between the individual and a
collective need. That's how we think about

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it. So the outcome of unity
for us, or of co creation between

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the organization and the purpose, it's
a much higher it's a much higher thing.

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It's it's it goes beyond alignment.
It's a much deeper cut. I

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guess. Yeah. So what I
was going to say earlier, is you

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submission to figure sixty five percent.
I've seen it as even as high as

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eighty five percent of people who are
uninterested in work across the globe anyways,

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better better better number here in the
States, it seems. But anyway,

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what I find phil and what I'm
up to, and I think you are

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too, is I really wanted to
do something to help those people that are

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literally walking through life dead Monday through
Friday, right, and theyre When I

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go and talk to people and I
ask them what they're passionate about, you

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know what, the number one response
is, what's that? I don't know?

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They say, I don't know.
So what I was going to share

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it as quickly is I was out
speaking to a group of women about a

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week and a half ago, and
it was about meaning, passion, purpose,

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inspiration, et cetera, and purpose
driven leadership. And the idea was

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to really help these when we get
present to the possibility of having a meaningful

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life and work and purpose infused.
And several of them, of course,

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got very excited about the idea.
They got aspired, and they got they

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got emotional about the possibilities. And
so what I see, phil are people

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are so hungry for meaning and purpose
and something of substance in their lives.

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They want that and if an organization
can help them get that, that's a

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home. Yeah. I think you
know, there's an integrity issue in there

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as well. I think people are
hungry for integrity too. Yeah, and

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they're hungry. What I mean by
that is, they are hungry for integrity

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in their whole life, like the
whole of their life, right, because

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in many cases, we're not getting
that in the workplace, we're not able

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to practice integrity and we're not finding
integrity, we're finding the opposite. So

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it's kind of leaving us with this
incompleteness of ourselves. But when we find

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purpose or what we find in purpose
and organizations that offer environments of purpose or

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purpose driven structures or however you want
to call it, it's an antidote really

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to this integrity challenge that we have
in our lives. Because if I'm somebody

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at home, right, or you're
somebody in the community, and that's different

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from who you are at work or
how you're being conditioned I guess to behave

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at work, then that leaves us
with quite a dilemma, right. We

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have a choice to make do I
act with integrity or do I disconnect from

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this place? And that's I think
what we're seeing. We're seeing a lot

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of people disconnecting, and I think
there's an integrity challenge that's going on that

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we need to solve. Phil that
is one of the most I don't know,

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but Crisp and also unique insights I've
ever heard on this topic, and

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I really appreciate that. I think
that is just golden. And of course

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one of the reasons I had to
having the show. I knew that you

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had this wealth of foundation to stand
from the work that you've been doing would

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really help give us some insights.
And that was just gold And I'm going

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to make sure I wrote that down. I'll put it into social media look

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out. It's great. Well,
so along those lines we're talking about,

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you said there's an integrity issue for
people in terms of their overall lives.

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I'm interested to hear what you see
as some of the biggest problems facing companies

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today. Yeah, well said,
I mean, it's it's a bit in

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the same line of thinking I think
for you know, sadly, for many

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organizations, at least those maybe I
guess you could say, who are walking

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the fine line between prevailing or dying
a slow death is there's a lack of

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trust, There's a there's a failure
in connecting, you know, meaningful trusting

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relationships both internally and externally. So
you know, it's resulting in deteriorating relationships

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between employees and employeers for sure,
but I think it's also in many cases

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impacting society at large. So just
think about the recent list. You can

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probably I won't name names, but
you can probably think of them off the

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top of your head. We've seen
a walkout recently. We've seen a founder

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ousting. We've seen a very well
known company with what i'd call is an

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identity crisis. We've seen companies spending
millions of dollars on campaigns like you know,

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quote unquote earning back our trust.
So I see these things and I

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just can't help but to think,
what a waste of creative energy right being

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pointed at things that are completely avoidable
if we were to prioritize the right things.

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So, Wow, you've really here
illustrated us a wide swath of issues.

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Boy, you've You're right, That's
that really helps us presence what's going

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on for us out there in this
big world we live in, very crisp

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again. Well, and then under
that, there's one other thing that I've

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been really really focused on lately,
Phil, in terms of the workforce and

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humanity, and that's artificial intelligence and
robotics. And so I'm interested in your

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perspective and how you think those two
will impact how humans experience and participate in

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the workforce. That's a great uh
question, And it's close to home because

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you know, in my other work
with automotive, we hear there's so much

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going around about this idea, and
there's so much creative destruction really in manufacturing

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and at least my sector and automotive
that's happening right right before our eyes.

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But I think the full effect of
this is it's quite a few years out.

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It's kind of like the autonomous vehicle
is supposed to be right around the

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corner, and that continues to get
pushed out. But I do know,

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I guess I think what they're saying
is maybe in the next twenty years or

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so. I've heard some numbers that
fifty percent of the work that people are

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currently doing will not exist. So
I guess in the next twenty years will

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be crucial how we train our youth
really, And in the meantime, there's

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growing fields like robotics and HMI,
which is human machine interface that will keep

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us busy for some time. And
I guess I say that a little bit

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tongue in cheek, because while you
and I both know that the economy is

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not a zero sum game. So
my thought on this on AIS it can

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only lead to more opportunity. And
there were dooms, a predictors and arguments

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at the turn of some you know, like the macroeconomic eras when we moved

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from a grarian industrial industrial to information
that those were for sure disruptive, but

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there was hardly casts and and mass
unemployment. I wouldn't say so this creative

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destruction, Like let's just take for
example, because we know it it's in

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our you know, it's in our
our lifespan is between the industrial and the

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information ages. Is that led to
a whole new economy, like entirely new

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work that we had not seen coming. We didn't predict ten, fifteen,

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twenty years prior to that. So
you can, I guess you can see

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I'm on the positive end of this
argument. I have faith in our human

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potential at lease. I do too, And I'll quickly just coming on that

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two pieces. I heard the Fielder
Reserve board chair Robert Kaplan speak here at

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a lunch and that I would do
sometime ago, and I asked him a

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question based on this speech. I
said, what are the the forward thinking

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companies doing about bridging artificial intelligence?
Robotics with the with the human workforce.

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And he said, and again,
I don't want to take his comments out

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of context here, so I don't
want people to think I'm not slamming him.

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I'm just passing on what he had
to say. But he said,

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he said, well, those companies
are investing more in technology than they are

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in people, which I didn't necessarily
like per se, But it doesn't I

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don't take a doomsday either. The
other side of that, to your point

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that I agree with, is that
from what I know of the work that

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I've been doing investigating meaning and work
phil is that people experience more meaning in

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their work when they are calling from
higher order abilities anyway. And so my

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hope is and I want to be
part of the movement that helps people be

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able to draw from a higher part
of themselves to participate in the workforce and

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letting machines and other things do some
of the other work that maybe they could

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have done previously, but bring them
to a higher level of contribution and therefore

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existence and interaction. And I think
it will be a more fulfilling place for

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them. Yes, they will have
to learn more, they will have to

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go back to school and continue to
unlock new skills and new talents. But

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I think it can be an even
more satisfying interaction and fulfilling than even it

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is today. I think you're the
word contribution is key in this conversation.

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I think that's really at the heart
of it because our human and I'll put

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that like in course, our human
contribution is what's unique, and that,

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coupled with our creative capacity is unique. And so our ability to create new

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information and channel it toward more meaningful
output that's unique. So I don't let

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me let me think, let me
just I'll use a ridiculous example to get

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the point across. It takes our
human creative capacity combined with our external circumstances

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to recognize that if it's cold outside
and we have a rock and two sticks,

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we might just rub them together to
create a spark that produces something warm,

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right like that comes from within us. AI cannot produce that that's a

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meaningful output from a circumstance that's around
us, and we figure out a way

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forward. So I think you know
it's true that machines will soon process more

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information than I think all humans combine. There's a chart I've seen that shows

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that we're a couple of years away
from that, from that inflection point,

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but they lack our creative capacity.
So my opinion, AI really only further

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unlocks us as humans. It unlocks
our our ability to create more value,

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substantial, more value for society,
and machines can compliment that. They can

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compliment us in this endeavor. I
think that's gorgeous. Phil and I completely

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agree, beautifully said, let's grab
our first break here real quick. I'm

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your host, Alice Cortez lead on
the air with Phil Sotok, who is

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the founder of DPMC North America,
a management consultancy specially rising in mission driven

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management and virtuous leadership. He joins
it today from West Michigan. We've been

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talking a bit about what's going on
the world that makes purpose so important.

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After the break, we're going to
talk about what he's been doing to serve

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his clients to help bring that so
see with us. We'll be right back.

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Elise Cortez is a speaker and engagement
and development catalyst. She designs and

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delivers professional development, leadership and engagement
workshops and can bring her expertise to your

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organization. She will help ignite meaningful
development within your workforce that will increase employee

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engagement, performance and retention. To
learn more or to invite Elise to speak

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to your organization, please visit her
at www dot Elise Cortez dot com.

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She would welcome the opportunity to help
get your employees working on purpose. This

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is working on Purpose with Elise Cortez. To reach our program today, send

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the mail to Elise ali Se at
Elise Cortez dot com. Now back to

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working on purpose if you're just joining
us. My guest is Phil Sotok.

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He was the founder of DPMC North
America and management consultancy specializing in mission driven

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management and virtuous leadership. He also
founded and helps manage Venture Source Corporation,

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a global supplier of engineer products to
the automotive industry with offices in the US,

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China, Spain, and Mexico.
I'm your host Elise Cortez. So

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Phil, before we went for break, I really just appreciated how you finished

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the concept or the conversation around artificial
intelligence and robotics. And I hope for

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our listeners that they can lean forward
and stand in place of hope and possibility

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than fear right on, right on. Yeah, I agree, and it's

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it's I I wanted to say,
it's a comparative advantage thing we have to

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focus on. You know, it's
kind of cliche, it's us for you

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know, human versus machine, but
we do truly have to focus on our

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human comparative advantage. And that's something
that's again that's unique to us. And

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I think, you know, whether
it's studying the humanities or practicing you know,

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the human virtues, I think those
things can set us apart. And

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I believe those are the things that
we should be teaching our youth to prepare

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for the next age here here,
and I have an interest in helping to

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further shape the education space. So
maybe who knows, phil you know,

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these stranger things have been known to
happen, you and I could be on

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the other end of this, who
knows? Next venture? You need something

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else to do, don't you?
Oh yeah, I do. Okay,

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Well, I want to talk about
what the work that you're doing here.

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You know, it's it's this is
a fascinating place to get to contribute to.

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And I've been so enjoying meeting people
like you as my comrades. So

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first let's situate just how in the
world. You get yourself into this.

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I mean, you have a very
successful business already in the automotive industry called

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Venture Source. How did you decide
to enter the mashboo consultant in the purpose

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space. Yeah, it's I guess
it's a bit of a jump from where

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I started. I grew up in
a family of engineers, and I started

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my career as an engineer. But
then I kind of drifted more towards,

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you know, down the business road. And after a number of years in

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different corporate settings, I mysell phone
that I was searching. I was searching

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for something more. And that's when
I, at least from my you know,

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my personal story, I recognized I
had an entrepreneurial spirit in me.

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So I decided to act upon that
and started Venture Source. And when we

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started Venture Source, we wrote a
vision and it was, you know,

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like a three page document and it
had a little paragraph in there and all

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it said was we're going to do
something about teaching others. And it was

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vague and so it wasn't really unpacked
that well, but we knew we wanted

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to help others in business someday down
the road. We wanted to help them

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be better because that's why we were
that's really why we start Adventure Sources.

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We wanted to create an environment for
ourselves and for other people where they could

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find their best self. So we
didn't start Venture Source on a product idea,

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as you might think because we're an
automotive and manufacturing. We didn't start

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it that way. We started around
the idea of creating a better place to

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work. And a few of us
had some you know, I would call

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them bad experiences, but just experiences
within corporate America that we're not fulfilling.

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We said, let's let's try to
create something that's better, not just a

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fun place to work, but something
where we can maximize our talents and do

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something uh, you know great together
let us you know, and I appreciate

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that. And as you and I
spoke on the phone when when we first

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met, I felt like you're you're
you're you're my brother from some other planet

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or some other time. I don't
know, but we're we're caught. We're

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cosmically connected somehow. But it's very
similar as how I ended up in the

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space as well. Wanted to wanted
to create the work and the life in

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which I wanted to be part of
and that I would be proud to live

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and proud to connect with others through
so very very similar approach. I built

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it on the back of what I
had been doing before around Mashboo consulting,

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but situated into that particular space of
how do we make this meaningful and purposeful?

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So now, but your particular your
a particular approach I really want to

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I want to bring forth here.
It's fascinating here that you talk about how

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your solutions are aligned with the practice
of management by missions and transcendent motivation.

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And I want to talk about each
one of those things to help our listeners

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understand them. So first, the
practice of management by mission, What do

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you mean by that? How do
you work with that? Yeah, that's

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really that's a systematic approach. So
and it's our systematic approach or methodology.

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You could call it to bringing we
say bringing purpose to life within the organization,

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and we call it by that name
specifically, you know, missions with

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an ass because we focus on personal
missions as an expression of purpose. And

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so nowadays we I mean, like
we said, most organizations, if not

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all, have some true north articulated
already. So much of our role is

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really in helping them. It's on
the how two side of the equations,

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helping them to operationalize it at every
level and within every person within the organization,

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which entails looking at everything in the
business through a lens of purpose.

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So at the highest levels, we
look at the strategy of the organization,

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the design of the organization, the
leadership practices, because we want to ensure

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that there exists a high level of
continuity in every action that is taken within

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the organization, that those actions are
pointed towards serving the purpose. And so

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we really need to bring those three
areas of the organization together and we can

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unpack that further. But that's that's
the gist of it. Yeah, go

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ahead, though now there's four there's
I guess to wrap it up. There's

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four general categories we consider when we
look at that to help organizations better align

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and structure their business. Is relative
to purpose and entails looking at the company's

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story, which can be the vision, values, the principles, you know,

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the business model. We want to
get a strategic fit around that,

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and we want to get alignment at
the leadership level around that before we start

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to cascade that identity and that story
throughout the organization. We look at organizational

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coherence, so we need to align
that story and the purpose of the organization

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with the systems that they're deploying.
So I'll use an example of, you

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know, just compensation systems. If
we're talking about trust and teamwork at the

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purpose and the and the you know, and and the storyline of the organization

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or who we are from a principle's
perspective, but we have compensation plans that

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put me against you or it's not
you know, it's a zero sum game,

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then that's really inconsistent and coherent with
what we're professing. And the same

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thing with the lead ship practices and
behaviors. If we have a purpose and

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principles and values that are professed,
but we have leadership behaviors that are inconsistent

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to that, then the whole of
the organization feels this is you know,

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really inauthentic, and that causes problems
as well. So those are the three

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areas that we need to look at
and find integrity around those, And I

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think many organizations fail because they focus
on one of those, but they don't

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focus on those from a holistic perspective
and try to look at all three of

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those through the lens of purpose.
What I appreciate about that as a systems

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thinker is, to me, that's
all about systems, the interactivity, the

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close interconnection of how everything impacts something
else, And I really appreciate that holistic

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approach. Yeah, it's connecting the
dots. And again, like we said,

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there's everybody seems to have a purpose
statement, but they're not connecting the

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dots. They're failing to connect the
dots with the people within their organizations,

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with how they've structured the organizations,
with the environments that they're creating within the

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organizations, and how they're behaving.
So it's really a whole, a full

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picture that you need to look at
if we want to get it right.

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For sure. Well, and then
there's this thing that transcendent motivation that you

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that you practice. Talk about that
this is arguably the most important aspect of

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our work because our aim here is
to help the organization see the person's unique

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contribution relative to the job they're being
asked to perform. And it's really I

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like to think of it as a
mindset shift that we seek because with this

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we can then start to help the
person understand that meaning ultimately comes from within,

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it's not something that's dictated to us
from another. We bring meaning to

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our work, and I think that's
if there's anything that people take away from

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that. That's a key point,
because I think too many people are thinking

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or going about it saying I need
to find a job that gives me meaning,

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right, I need to find a
place that gives me meaning, when

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they really should be turning that around
and saying, how am I uniquely bringing

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something to this place? And then
that's the giving that then, you know,

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gets receiving, and the receiving that
you get out of that is meaning.

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So it's really a correct understanding of
meaning. It's critical or we risk

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spending our lives chasing a fantasy,
you know, and in the process we

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believe others far unhappiness. So that's
much of the work that we do at

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DPMC focuses on building on this foundation, grounding people in their purpose while helping

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them to express their unique contribution and
impact to higher purpose or shared purpose whatever

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I mean. That shared purpose can
simply be that my contribution to my team,

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you know that, and my team's
purpose to the to the higher purpose.

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What I so like about what you're
saying and tell me if I've got

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this wrong, So don't let me
put words in your mouth. But what

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I'm hearing from what you're saying,
Phil, is that one, you're helping

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to develop organizations to be be able
to work through management, bye by missions,

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and then of course utilizing and infusing
this transient motivation piece into it.

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Thereby, what you do is you
are developing the organization change in the way

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that it really does its business and
at the same time empowering the individual to

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step into his own power of creating
that meaning and creating that purpose for themselves.

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Because it's fair. It's absolutely fair, and I like to think about

406
00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:32.640
it actually is co creation. Yeah, creating with the environment around us,

407
00:30:32.640 --> 00:30:37.160
with our organization, with the people
around us. And that's that connection,

408
00:30:37.720 --> 00:30:41.559
and that co creation between myself as
an individual and the people around me.

409
00:30:41.240 --> 00:30:45.839
That's what that's trans that starts to
move us along the transcendent or along the

410
00:30:45.880 --> 00:30:52.640
motivation spectrum from extrinsic motivators toward transcendent
because you I mean, you know,

411
00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:56.880
when you do something for a greater
good or for a common good, or

412
00:30:56.880 --> 00:31:02.640
when you do it in conjunction with
others, you move beyond yourself you start

413
00:31:02.680 --> 00:31:07.079
to see others, and so you
start to transcend beyond the things that we

414
00:31:07.160 --> 00:31:11.759
are conditioned or we're told that we
typically should seek, like money or accolades

415
00:31:11.839 --> 00:31:14.400
or even happiness. Right, we're
told that, you know, to find

416
00:31:14.400 --> 00:31:18.000
our happiness or go seek happiness.
But there's really I think you and I

417
00:31:18.039 --> 00:31:22.319
know from at least from talking to
you, that there's true meaning to be

418
00:31:22.359 --> 00:31:26.880
found in serving others for the sake
of serving others. Just that, yes,

419
00:31:27.640 --> 00:31:30.480
yes, And I think you know
I talked about this as well.

420
00:31:30.559 --> 00:31:33.880
Is that there's the idea of instead
of focusing on happiness, which might be

421
00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:38.440
a byproduct, that we're focused on
what's meaningful and what's fulfilling, and then

422
00:31:38.480 --> 00:31:42.000
as a result, we experience happiness. And so sometimes to your point,

423
00:31:42.079 --> 00:31:45.759
chasing the wrong thing, trying to
chase being happy, Well, what's that?

424
00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:51.960
Isn't that transitory? But when we
help other people and especially for extended

425
00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:56.839
period of time, that's meaningful and
fulfilling. Yeah, it is. It

426
00:31:56.960 --> 00:32:00.640
is. And there's an outward mindset
there that I think we have to we

427
00:32:00.759 --> 00:32:04.519
have to train ourselves to think,
you know, it's a service. You

428
00:32:04.519 --> 00:32:09.160
know, we've whether it's you know, servant leadership I think addresses that concept,

429
00:32:09.200 --> 00:32:14.160
that idea of you know, the
service to others. Really what's what's

430
00:32:14.200 --> 00:32:17.839
rewarding and meaningful? And that's but
that's something we have to condition ourselves to

431
00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:22.319
think because I think we're conditioned to
not think that way. We're very much

432
00:32:22.359 --> 00:32:29.319
conditioned to think about kind of getting
our own taking care of ourselves. And

433
00:32:29.359 --> 00:32:32.039
that's it's it's just something we need
to break. It's a habit we need

434
00:32:32.039 --> 00:32:37.880
to break, no question about that, no question. I want to if

435
00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:38.720
I on the break here, I'm
going to look up a book then I'm

436
00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:43.160
reading that the guy talks about that
as well. But before we go into

437
00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:45.759
our next break here, I want
to grab one last thing relative to this

438
00:32:45.799 --> 00:32:50.720
conversation here, and that is it
strikes me that you have had the chance

439
00:32:50.759 --> 00:32:54.400
to be able to see organizations that
are exceptionally well run and organizations that aren't

440
00:32:55.039 --> 00:32:59.880
so. In your work as you've
gone through, whether it's working with companies

441
00:32:59.920 --> 00:33:04.319
or observing them, how would you
characterize the most effective leadership? What does

442
00:33:04.359 --> 00:33:12.720
it look like that? Yeah,
and well that's probably a lifelong endeavor to

443
00:33:12.759 --> 00:33:15.920
try to articulate that. But I
mean, and my at least up till

444
00:33:15.960 --> 00:33:19.640
this point. Right, in my
experience in working with all sorts of leaders

445
00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:23.759
as you as you mentioned, I
can boil it down to two qualities that

446
00:33:23.880 --> 00:33:29.640
characterize, or I would say characterize
effective leadership. Like when you say effective,

447
00:33:29.680 --> 00:33:32.839
I think of qualities that are required
to set the stage for getting the

448
00:33:32.920 --> 00:33:37.839
right thing done, the right things
done. So one quality for this is

449
00:33:37.920 --> 00:33:44.559
humility, but a specific form of
humility, right, let's get that clear.

450
00:33:44.599 --> 00:33:47.720
It's a sense of knowing ourselves for
sure, but it's also knowing ourselves

451
00:33:47.720 --> 00:33:51.440
relative to others, so we can
determine how best to serve them, which

452
00:33:51.440 --> 00:33:52.960
is a little bit of the kind
of a topic we've talked about before.

453
00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:59.400
And this goes hand in hand with
another quality that I've seen in effective leaders,

454
00:33:59.400 --> 00:34:02.720
and that is their ability to see
greatness not only in their self,

455
00:34:02.839 --> 00:34:07.239
which, as silly as that sounds, it's not always that easy to see

456
00:34:07.280 --> 00:34:12.840
greatness in ourselves, right, There's
something that keeps us from from doing us

457
00:34:13.039 --> 00:34:15.920
doing that. So their ability to
see greatness in their self but also in

458
00:34:16.239 --> 00:34:22.280
other people as well, and then
from there they try to bring that greatness

459
00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:25.280
out of other people. So those
two things together, and they have to

460
00:34:25.320 --> 00:34:31.599
go together because if we have humility
without this seeking of greatness, then we

461
00:34:31.639 --> 00:34:35.960
have maybe we have a hermit or
something like that. And if we have

462
00:34:36.039 --> 00:34:40.039
the seeking of greatness without without humility, we have well, we have plenty

463
00:34:40.079 --> 00:34:45.760
of examples of that, probably because
that then starts to border on egomania and

464
00:34:45.800 --> 00:34:47.119
some of those things. So they
have to go together, and when they

465
00:34:47.159 --> 00:34:52.280
go together, the outcomes are resolved. Their courage, their justice, practical

466
00:34:52.280 --> 00:34:58.440
wisdom, self mastery. These are
the true leadership qualities. I would say

467
00:34:59.199 --> 00:35:01.920
that was against fresh Phil. Thank
you for that perfect way to take us

468
00:35:01.920 --> 00:35:05.840
into our last break. I'm your
host, Elise Cortez. We've been in

469
00:35:05.840 --> 00:35:08.239
the air with Phil Sotuk, who
is the founder of DPMC North America,

470
00:35:08.440 --> 00:35:14.039
a management consultancy specializing in mission driven
management and virtuous leadership. He joins it

471
00:35:14.119 --> 00:35:15.760
today from West Michigan. After the
break, we're going to talk a little

472
00:35:15.760 --> 00:35:19.440
bit about how some of the work
that he's been doing gets supplied in some

473
00:35:19.480 --> 00:35:22.159
of the results that he's seen.
Stay with us, we'll be right back.

474
00:35:22.599 --> 00:35:27.320
Elise Cortez is a speaker and engagement
and development catalyst. She designs and

475
00:35:27.400 --> 00:35:31.920
delivers professional development, leadership and engagement
workshops and can bring her expertise to your

476
00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:37.400
organization. She will help ignite meaningful
development within your workforce that will increase employee

477
00:35:37.400 --> 00:35:42.880
engagement, performance and retention. To
learn more or to invite Elise to speak

478
00:35:42.920 --> 00:35:47.199
to your organization, please visit her
at www dot Elise Cortez dot com.

479
00:35:47.360 --> 00:35:59.320
She would welcome the opportunity to help
get your employees working on purpose. This

480
00:35:59.559 --> 00:36:04.519
is working on purpose with Elise Cortez. To reach our program today, send

481
00:36:04.519 --> 00:36:10.239
an email to Elise ali Se at
Elise Cortez dot com. Now back to

482
00:36:10.400 --> 00:36:15.000
working on purpose if you're just tuning
in. My guest is Phil Sotok.

483
00:36:15.079 --> 00:36:20.920
He is the founder of dp VPMC
North America, a management consultancy specializing in

484
00:36:20.920 --> 00:36:24.679
admission driven management and virtuous leadership.
He also founded and helps manage Venture Source

485
00:36:24.679 --> 00:36:30.039
Corporation, a global supplier of engineer
products to the automotive industry with offices in

486
00:36:30.079 --> 00:36:32.400
the US, China, Spain,
and Mexico. I'm your host, Elise

487
00:36:32.480 --> 00:36:37.840
Cortez, so really quick to close
the loop before we go on to application

488
00:36:37.960 --> 00:36:39.719
here. I mentioned a book that
I had been I have been reading,

489
00:36:40.199 --> 00:36:43.239
and part of what made me think
about it, Phil, was when you

490
00:36:43.320 --> 00:36:46.639
said something about the importance of people
focusing not just on themselves but also serving

491
00:36:46.840 --> 00:36:51.639
and helping others. And the book
that I'm thinking of is called Creativity,

492
00:36:51.719 --> 00:36:58.320
Inc. It's yeah, subtitle is
Overcoming the Unseen Forces that Stand in the

493
00:36:58.320 --> 00:37:02.079
Way of True Inspiration by and Catmull, who is the president of Pixar Animation

494
00:37:02.119 --> 00:37:07.840
and Disney Disney Animation. He's just
got a lot in there about really I

495
00:37:07.880 --> 00:37:10.039
think it sounds like, you know, the book, But what I like

496
00:37:10.199 --> 00:37:14.800
so much about what his message is
in there is that he really is standing

497
00:37:14.840 --> 00:37:17.480
in a place of how to help
other people see their greatness, how to

498
00:37:17.519 --> 00:37:22.559
remove any barriers in the workplace that
get in the way of creativity or anything

499
00:37:22.559 --> 00:37:25.760
that might produce fear, just being
vigil about that and you know, really

500
00:37:25.800 --> 00:37:30.360
looking from the place of it's not
all about me. He talks about one

501
00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:34.400
point when he was interviewing for one
position somewhere I forget where, and they

502
00:37:34.440 --> 00:37:37.440
asked him, you know, who
else do you think we should be talking

503
00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:40.119
to, and he gave him a
whole list of names, and he said

504
00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:43.920
that he got the job. And
afterwards he said part of the reason that

505
00:37:43.960 --> 00:37:45.559
they gave him the job, as
he said he was the only one they

506
00:37:45.599 --> 00:37:51.400
interviewed that gave them other names of
prospects. Everybody else obviously felt like that

507
00:37:51.440 --> 00:37:55.679
would be a game ending approach for
them, but he didn't see it that

508
00:37:55.719 --> 00:37:59.239
way. There was He looked at
it as that's kind of what you said

509
00:37:59.239 --> 00:38:02.199
earlier in the conversation about it.
The playing field is large, there's lots

510
00:38:02.239 --> 00:38:06.760
of work to do out there,
so we don't need to diminish others to

511
00:38:07.079 --> 00:38:12.159
to you know, expand or get
ourselves going the direction that we want to.

512
00:38:12.320 --> 00:38:15.400
So anyway, at zero, so
I'm thinking he's here, you go.

513
00:38:15.639 --> 00:38:20.480
He's cross referenced in the book Culture
Code, which is another book that

514
00:38:20.519 --> 00:38:23.519
you would probably like or love if
you haven't read it yet. Thank you.

515
00:38:23.599 --> 00:38:29.440
I write that down. I always
have an ongoing list of books coming

516
00:38:29.440 --> 00:38:32.639
to my door, so they're they're
in my queue. Okay, well,

517
00:38:32.679 --> 00:38:36.360
let's finish this a little bit of
say, we don't have much time left

518
00:38:36.400 --> 00:38:38.119
on the show here, and I
want to make sure our listeners get some

519
00:38:38.360 --> 00:38:44.679
example of really how your work helps
organization. What's the bottom line, what's

520
00:38:44.719 --> 00:38:47.639
the what's the contribution here? So
can you share with us an example or

521
00:38:47.679 --> 00:38:51.679
a case study of a company that
you work with that illustrates the impact of

522
00:38:51.719 --> 00:38:53.719
your work and how the company win. It'd be great if you had,

523
00:38:53.719 --> 00:38:57.079
like me to like a before or
after, and you don't need to give

524
00:38:57.079 --> 00:39:00.280
away the company name if that would
not be beneficial to So we just want

525
00:39:00.280 --> 00:39:04.639
to understand how you work and what
are the results. Yeah, there is

526
00:39:04.639 --> 00:39:08.559
an example I can give. It's
I'd like to use it because their transformation

527
00:39:08.679 --> 00:39:15.039
was pretty impressive. Sort's a good
example, but it really allowed us also

528
00:39:15.119 --> 00:39:20.960
to fulfill our purpose in a meaningful
way to stand alongside them and help them

529
00:39:21.639 --> 00:39:24.159
to do this. So we had
a CEO approach us a number of years

530
00:39:24.199 --> 00:39:29.920
ago. He was struggling stagnant growth, the profitability, and his team was

531
00:39:29.960 --> 00:39:35.239
flat and he could not figure out
how to motivate them toward higher performance or

532
00:39:35.280 --> 00:39:39.840
anything really, so the outcome was
high turnover. He had a lot of

533
00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:45.159
uninspiring and uninspired leadership going on,
and so we started with him. We

534
00:39:45.199 --> 00:39:51.480
started where we typically start, which
as we do an assessment around unity within

535
00:39:51.559 --> 00:39:53.519
the organization. We found, as
you would guess, some pre low levels

536
00:39:54.320 --> 00:39:59.320
of understanding and commitment around the company, vision, the mission, the principles,

537
00:39:59.400 --> 00:40:04.519
all those owning statements. There was
really no understanding at all around it.

538
00:40:04.519 --> 00:40:08.800
It was somewhat meaningful or meaningless rather
to the people. So over the

539
00:40:08.960 --> 00:40:14.360
over the course of a number of
months in our engagement, as we deployed

540
00:40:14.360 --> 00:40:16.360
the model, we connected the dots, we provided them tools, we helped

541
00:40:16.360 --> 00:40:20.800
the leaders, you know, kind
of helped themselves. We saw that.

542
00:40:20.960 --> 00:40:23.199
We saw it increase, of course, but to one of the highest levels

543
00:40:23.199 --> 00:40:28.599
we've seen today, to like it's
like the ninetieth percentile. And so that's

544
00:40:28.639 --> 00:40:32.559
great, But you walk through the
organization now in the atmosphere is completely changed.

545
00:40:32.599 --> 00:40:37.760
It's absolutely night and day of high
energy, vibrant people, positive interactions.

546
00:40:37.800 --> 00:40:42.840
They're self driven, and so it's
quite a change from the days of

547
00:40:43.480 --> 00:40:49.199
you know, flat teams and uninspired
leaders. And the numbers in the organization

548
00:40:49.320 --> 00:40:52.639
reflected as well. So in the
last five years we engaged with this company

549
00:40:53.559 --> 00:40:58.719
five years ago. In the last
five years, they've tripled their business.

550
00:40:59.400 --> 00:41:02.079
They've increased their corporate earnings about four
hundred percent. I think that would dip

551
00:41:02.280 --> 00:41:07.320
last year, but there's still on
a very steep up curve. And so

552
00:41:07.199 --> 00:41:14.119
this success story is great because they
attribute it to finding purpose within their organization

553
00:41:14.199 --> 00:41:19.400
and of course implementing the management by
Missions model. But really it's around the

554
00:41:19.480 --> 00:41:25.840
idea of finding purpose and that this
can be profitable in all senses of the

555
00:41:25.880 --> 00:41:29.960
word, right, not just in
the bottom line, but certainly it does

556
00:41:30.119 --> 00:41:32.679
impact the bottom line. So that
was a great success story and it was

557
00:41:32.679 --> 00:41:37.599
great for us to participate in that. And isn't it wonderful and amazing to

558
00:41:37.639 --> 00:41:39.559
get to do that kind of work
and help an organization like that that is

559
00:41:39.719 --> 00:41:45.159
phenomenal films. Yeah, it's yeah, that's meaning. That's you know,

560
00:41:45.840 --> 00:41:49.480
it's worth getting up for your right. I think I'll get out of bed

561
00:41:49.480 --> 00:41:53.159
for that. Well, you already
mentioned a few of these symptoms here,

562
00:41:53.199 --> 00:41:57.440
but it's just helpful for people might
go your struedule with her. Why would

563
00:41:57.440 --> 00:41:59.800
I want to work with Phil?
I mean, why do I need that

564
00:42:00.199 --> 00:42:04.159
for? So? What are some
of the symptoms, the symptomatic problems that

565
00:42:04.199 --> 00:42:06.960
you might say that companies would experience
it would indicate to you that they could

566
00:42:06.960 --> 00:42:12.679
benefit from working with you. You
mentioned law performance, uninspired work workforce.

567
00:42:13.639 --> 00:42:16.559
What else would indicate that there may
be an opportunity there? Well, there's

568
00:42:16.920 --> 00:42:23.800
I mean, there's at silos,
there's team dysfunction, there's disengagement, lack

569
00:42:23.960 --> 00:42:29.320
you poor communication, some of those
things. But you know, I can

570
00:42:29.320 --> 00:42:31.960
give people and I typically, you
know, we give a list of things

571
00:42:31.960 --> 00:42:37.599
that they might be feeling, but
I like to frame it under an overarching

572
00:42:37.679 --> 00:42:42.119
problem indicator, kind of a leading
indicator, and the one that we've learned

573
00:42:42.320 --> 00:42:45.039
from our experience with working with companies
large and small, regardless of the sector

574
00:42:45.039 --> 00:42:51.639
services that they provide, and that
is what is the health of your interpersonal

575
00:42:51.920 --> 00:42:57.320
relationships within the organization. Because when
we know this, then we can appropriately

576
00:42:57.320 --> 00:43:00.840
address the various symptomatic problems that we
might be facing, whether they stem from

577
00:43:01.239 --> 00:43:07.760
paternalistic cultures, from bureaucracy, from
aggressive cultures, and those lead to things

578
00:43:07.800 --> 00:43:12.440
such as silos or team dysfunction for
communication, apathy, and even fear in

579
00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:15.159
some cases. So what we found
is that in high purpose, high performing

580
00:43:15.239 --> 00:43:20.719
organizations, those that we've worked with, they've all exhibited this one common denomina

581
00:43:20.960 --> 00:43:25.559
that's that high quality relationship and it's
both internal and external. It's typically characterized

582
00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:34.440
by cultures of compassion, vulnerability,
safety, belonging, servant leadership, certainly

583
00:43:34.440 --> 00:43:38.280
low levels of self interest within the
team and team members. So what does

584
00:43:38.320 --> 00:43:43.519
that tell us that tells us we
need to solve first and foremost for those

585
00:43:43.639 --> 00:43:47.599
variables that elevate the level of interpersonal
relationship within our company, whatever those are,

586
00:43:47.840 --> 00:43:51.199
and you know them. You know, the owner of a company or

587
00:43:51.239 --> 00:43:54.639
the leader of a company, they
know it. Whether your company falls in

588
00:43:55.039 --> 00:44:00.559
you know, if it's a go
go startup or fits a mature your old

589
00:44:00.559 --> 00:44:06.599
company, you'll have these unique challenges. But they're all grounded in one key

590
00:44:06.679 --> 00:44:10.000
dynamic. And so the question is
how are you inter personal relationships? Ask

591
00:44:10.119 --> 00:44:15.480
that question and test engage for that. Wow, that is so crisp,

592
00:44:15.559 --> 00:44:17.760
and you know, so the great
thing when I appreciate about the work who

593
00:44:17.800 --> 00:44:23.360
you are coming from an engineering background
and family in such and perhaps bringing that

594
00:44:23.400 --> 00:44:28.280
background into the work that you do
in purpose, it's just I really appreciate

595
00:44:28.360 --> 00:44:30.360
that combination films. Yes, I
was the ugly duckling in the family.

596
00:44:32.039 --> 00:44:37.639
I understand I was the black sheep
too in many ways. Well, just

597
00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:40.400
a couple of things here before we
dash. I know that it's probably fairly

598
00:44:40.440 --> 00:44:45.039
obvious, but I really want our
listeners to get this. What is it

599
00:44:45.079 --> 00:44:47.280
about this work that you do that
so grabs you, so compels you.

600
00:44:47.320 --> 00:44:52.800
Why is it meaningful? For you. You know, I believe that this

601
00:44:52.880 --> 00:44:58.760
idea of purpose at work will make
our lives as individuals whole. And it's

602
00:44:58.800 --> 00:45:00.199
kind of that topic that we talk
about a little bit before. If we

603
00:45:00.280 --> 00:45:04.679
get if we get purpose right or
purpose at work right, it could be

604
00:45:04.760 --> 00:45:09.199
the foundation from which we change everything. Because right now you think about it,

605
00:45:09.199 --> 00:45:14.039
we're very piecemeal in our approach.
We have disengaged workers, so we

606
00:45:14.079 --> 00:45:16.960
throw wellness programs at them, we
throw our random leadership seminar at them,

607
00:45:16.960 --> 00:45:22.719
but nothing really has context. And
we have companies. I read something the

608
00:45:22.719 --> 00:45:30.760
other day about a company that was
implementing like meditation and health promotion policies.

609
00:45:30.800 --> 00:45:34.239
But you read about this company and
year after year they're engaging in downsizing,

610
00:45:34.519 --> 00:45:37.159
forcing early retirements, in layoffs.
So it's two completely different ends of the

611
00:45:37.199 --> 00:45:42.800
spectrum. How do you think their
workforce perceives that? So those things are

612
00:45:42.840 --> 00:45:47.719
really like front and center to me. So I believe that when we frame

613
00:45:47.800 --> 00:45:52.960
the business through the lens of purpose, then everything we do has the opportunity

614
00:45:52.039 --> 00:45:57.000
to have context and strategic fit.
We do things for a reason of extent,

615
00:45:57.199 --> 00:46:02.239
and this takes us closer to the
desired endgame that was just yummy,

616
00:46:02.320 --> 00:46:07.119
phil Ifensively, it's around the verge
of redefining work and I know you believe

617
00:46:07.199 --> 00:46:10.559
that too. I think. I
think it will. It will serve to

618
00:46:10.599 --> 00:46:14.480
complete who we are, it will
serve to give us life to who we

619
00:46:14.519 --> 00:46:17.840
are, and and it'll help us
to reach our full potential. I truly

620
00:46:17.840 --> 00:46:22.400
believe that I do too, And
oddly enough, back to our earlier conversation,

621
00:46:22.440 --> 00:46:24.360
I do think that artificial intelligence and
robotics so I hope get us there.

622
00:46:24.360 --> 00:46:28.239
It'll be part of the catalyst that
gets us kind of boots us up

623
00:46:28.280 --> 00:46:30.440
there, if you will. Yeah, and I do believe, and that

624
00:46:30.519 --> 00:46:35.280
is sure should Yeah, yeah,
you and I are part of a movement

625
00:46:35.280 --> 00:46:39.920
to help reshape the workforce, absolutely, and in so doing the life experience,

626
00:46:39.960 --> 00:46:45.320
the existential experience of people. It's
it's it's amazing work to get to

627
00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:50.760
do. Really, So, have
you read BJ Fogg's work on behavioral behavioral

628
00:46:50.760 --> 00:46:52.960
models and props? No, but
I'm writing it down, thank you.

629
00:46:53.280 --> 00:46:59.440
Really interesting. It's like I look
at purpose or yeah, I guess I

630
00:46:59.480 --> 00:47:05.719
look at within organizations. He talks
about getting prompts right, and it prompts

631
00:47:05.800 --> 00:47:07.480
we have to have the right prompt
to lead us. We have to have

632
00:47:07.519 --> 00:47:10.119
the skill, but we have to
have the right prompt to lead us to

633
00:47:10.199 --> 00:47:15.559
the to the desired behavior. And
I think of that as getting the environment

634
00:47:15.760 --> 00:47:22.559
right around us is the prompt to
lead us to purposeful behaviors within organizations.

635
00:47:22.599 --> 00:47:28.440
And so that's I really focus on
the environment, the structure, and getting

636
00:47:28.519 --> 00:47:31.519
all of that right so that people
can flourish. That is gorgeous. And

637
00:47:31.599 --> 00:47:35.559
on that note, we will finish
and clothes because we're out of time and

638
00:47:35.559 --> 00:47:37.679
I want to make sure and I
get people to your website. So Phil,

639
00:47:37.800 --> 00:47:40.599
so talk. Thank you so much
for joining Working on Purpose. You

640
00:47:40.679 --> 00:47:45.400
have been a tremendous contribution. Thank
you, Thanks alist for having me.

641
00:47:45.199 --> 00:47:47.840
You want to learn more about Phil
Sotok and the work that he is doing,

642
00:47:49.599 --> 00:47:54.239
visit him and his team at DPMC
dot us dot com DPMC dot us

643
00:47:54.960 --> 00:48:00.239
and join us next week when we
talk with Elizabeth Fournier of Cornerstone Funeral about

644
00:48:00.280 --> 00:48:02.639
the unique way she has of seeing
people complete in their lives and what that

645
00:48:02.760 --> 00:48:07.280
finality does to garner and govern a
sense of purpose in our lives. So

646
00:48:07.840 --> 00:48:09.400
I brought her on on Purpose because
I want her to be able to help

647
00:48:09.480 --> 00:48:14.280
us see what it looks like from
the end of life. That's what helps

648
00:48:14.320 --> 00:48:15.960
fuel our purpose, so see you
then, remember that work is at least

649
00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:22.559
one third of our lives, So
let's work on purpose. We hope you've

650
00:48:22.679 --> 00:48:25.679
enjoyed this week's program. Be sure
to tune in to Working on Purpose,

651
00:48:27.000 --> 00:48:31.360
featuring your host, Alice Cortez,
each week on the Voice America Empowerment channel.

652
00:48:31.880 --> 00:48:36.039
This week, find your life's purpose
at work.