March 25, 2025

Conflict Resilience: Turning Disagreement into Growth and Connection

Conflict Resilience: Turning Disagreement into Growth and Connection

Conflict is everywhere, from our personal relationships to workplaces and society at large. Too often, we either retreat into echo chambers or lash out with hostility, leaving us stuck in cycles of resentment and division. But what if conflict wasn’t...

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Conflict is everywhere, from our personal relationships to workplaces and society at large. Too often, we either retreat into echo chambers or lash out with hostility, leaving us stuck in cycles of resentment and division. But what if conflict wasn’t something to fear or avoid? In their groundbreaking book Conflict Resilience, law professor Robert Bordone and neurologist Joel Salinas introduce a radical new approach—befriending conflict as a catalyst for growth and connection.

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What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the

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all want Working on Purpose. Now, here's your host, doctor

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Elise Cortes.

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Welcome back to the Working on Purpose program, which has

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been brought to you with passion and price since February

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of twenty fifteen. Great to have you back again this week.

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I'm your host, doctor at least Cortes. If we've not

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met before and you don't know me, I'm an organizational psychologist,

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management consultant, local therapist, speaker and author. My team and

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I at gusto Now help companies to enliven and fortify

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their operations by building a dynamic, high performance culture and

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inspirational leadership activated by meaning and purpose. And did you

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know that inspired employees outperform their satisfied peers by a

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factor of two point twenty five two one. In other words,

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inspiration is good for the bottom line. You can learn

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more abouts and how we can work together at gustodashnow

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dot com or my personal site at least Coortes dot com.

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Getting in today's program we have with us today the

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authors of Conflict Resilience Negotiating Disagreement without giving up or

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giving in a toolkit for coming together in a conflicted world.

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Robert Bordon, a Senior Fellow at Harvard Law School, founder

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and former director of the Harvard Negotiation and Mediation Clinical Program,

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and founder of the Cambridge Negotiation Institute, and also Joel Salinis,

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medical doctor, a behavioral neurologist and clinical scientist at the

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NYU Grossman School of Medicine, founder and chief medical officer

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at ISAAC Health, and former Harvard Medical School faculty slightly

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impressive human beings. We'll be talking about why people are

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so adverse to conflict and move into such aggressive postures

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when faced with it, or when they just completely run

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like I like to do, and learn to employ their

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three part system to develop what they call conflict resilience

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for ourselves. Bob Joins is from Cambridge, Massachusetts, and doctor

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Joel joint Is from New York. Welcome, gentlemen to Working

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on Purpose.

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Thanks for having us.

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Really amazing. As I told you before we got on air,

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what you have created here in this book, Conflict Resilience,

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It's really really stunning, impressive work. And you know, I

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could also hurt somebody with this book. It was so

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so dense and full of information. The stories are amazing.

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You know your story about your mom, Bob and the

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shop store. I mean I could just so relate to that.

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I know it just a cringe worthy and true and true.

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I got it.

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I got it.

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And those things leave an imprint. As we'll talk about

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I'm sure. So, well, let's talk about why this book

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is just so important. Talk about a timely book, gentleman.

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You know, we live in a world of very divisive

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conflict today, so let's just talk a bit about why

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this book is just so important.

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Yeah.

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Well, you know, we came We each came at this

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book with some different difference as an experience, but then

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a real joining about why the timing would be right

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for me.

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I think this book, or the idea for the book

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and the idea for conflict resilience started almost a decade ago.

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I spent twenty one years teaching at HARVD Law School,

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and the beginning about a decade ago, I started to

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notice a very perceptible shift in the kinds of in

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classroom conversations and to make something very complexuch more simple,

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it went from interesting and diverse and sometimes conflicted to

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pretty dull and boring. And what I knew because I

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was on the admissions committee, I knew that we were

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still recruiting very interesting people with very different political views,

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but that something had shifted, and I did not think

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it was primarily the kind of skills. I mean, people

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have different levels of skills in this and we can

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up their game. We hope our book does upguard their game,

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but that what it shifted was that people were less

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willing to actually enter into really hard conversations. They tended

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to for a whole bunch of reasons that we can

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get into later, avoid because it was easier to avoid,

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because the cost of the conversation might be very high

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in terms of kind of online cancelation or career cancelation.

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Because because of social media, people didn't.

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Really know how to disagree.

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And so somehow I gave a talk actually in twenty

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eighteen where I use this word conflict resilience to try

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to distinguish it from conflict resolution. The idea being if

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we can't actually sit with the discomfort of our disagreement,

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if we can't listen with generosity, and if we can't

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represent ourselves in an authentic way but also in a

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way that increases the lightly that the other could hear us,

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then we could never get to the other things that

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I was teaching, which was conflict resolution or negotiation or mediation.

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And so that's kind of the world in which I

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started to think about this and started to see polarization

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and then enter into this this amazing wonderful friendship that

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I had with somebody across literally across the river, because

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Harvard Law schools on one side of the Charles River

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and Harvard Medical School and Mass Generals on the other

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side of the river. To enter doctor.

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Salinis, Yeah, I came at this from a different but

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related angle. So a behavior neurology just means I work

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with people affected by al Zember's disease and related disorders,

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and a lot of the research that I've done has

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been really focused on brain health and in particular psychosocial

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determinants of brain health, So how our social relationships shape

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our brain health. And one of the things that I

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was noticing in the literature or time was just how

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rates of social isolation and loneliness have been steadily increasing

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and really trying to understand why why is it that

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we've been having this kind of really concerning trend when

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things like social isolation and loneliness seem to be really

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big health risk factors. It increases risk of mortality gear

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than obesity and smoking. And I think in trying to

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understand any potential solutions here, I think one of the

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things that we came became clear over time was just

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there's this real barrier or gap around connection, and specifically

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around how we can really navigate conflicts with each other.

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With each other, it's almost like we're missing kind of

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that kind of like childhood skill set to some degree

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that can help us figure out, you know, when we

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when we disagree with each other, how we can how

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we can get through it. I think one of the

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one of the things that's just really clear about connection

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in general is that without conflict, there is no connection.

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So it's really interesting how we can better better at

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navigating that. So I was really fortunate to connect with

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Bob who has a very specific skill set on how

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do we navigate these things. So together we brought in

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both the practical aspects of his field and my field

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to try to put together some really useful and usable

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tactics here.

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I think it's stunning, and I love your collaboration. I

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do want to celebrate that. I mean, I've really been

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a big fan of law years in general because I

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love the way they think you know your traffic and words,

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and it's just, you know, it's stunning. And so you know,

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brain science, your your world. Doctor Sonius meets you know,

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the world of negotiational law and being able to use

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language to be able to connect and get a point across.

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I just really want to celebrate that you've come together

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to do that. How did the two of you come together?

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I mean, how did you guys actually meet and decide

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to do this.

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Yeah, we just.

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Met in the kind of larger, kind of Harvard professional universe.

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And it turned out also, it turns out there's a

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lot of conflict and big research medical centers, and so

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I was actually doing some work at Mass General. You know,

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conflict is everywhere, and so we just became friends.

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Really, I mean this started more as friendship.

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And I will say I very much credit Joelle on

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the idea of writing the book together, because I was

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kind of thinking about, you know, is this something, this

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book worthy or whatever, and then Joel said kind of

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approached me and said, would you want to do something

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on this? And my initial instinct was like, how would

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that work? But one of the great things about negotiation

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in general as a field, and one of my draws

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to it is that it's deeply interdisciplinary and it always

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has it draws on game theory and behavioral economics and

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then social kind of psychology. Uh and so why not

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brain signs right, and and and especially in this rapidly

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developing field that you know Joel has such expertise in.

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And so even though I think my initial reaction was

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like a little bit like, well, I don't know.

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You know, and then and then like the more I

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thought about it, I was like, what a what a

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brilliant idea. So, Joe, I don't know that that lands

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accurate from your.

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Totally it was in was very complimentary. I mean we,

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I would say, we engage in a lot of conflict

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as we're writing the book in terms of like.

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Which you allude to also in the book you throughout, Yeah, exactly.

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I mean my my perspective of like medical the medical

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world and sciences, I'm always trying to figure, Okay, well,

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what's what's behind this, Like what's going on in the brain?

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How do we study this? How do we break it

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down to its component parts? And Bob has a lot

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of really amazing experience, he has a lot of familiar

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with with the research done in this area. But I

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always kept on coming back in with like the razor

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sharp kind of like science leans of like wait, what's

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like how do we deconstruct this? How do we replicate this,

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What are.

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The funniest things about Like I love what we're doing

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these podcasts.

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Because well we'll say, oh, we had.

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A lot of conflict, and I was thinking like, oh, yeah,

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not that much.

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But that's also in the book, because that's right.

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That's it, this idea of his idea of conflict tolerance

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and the way we may people in general, they experience

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something as getting to the level of conflict very differently.

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And so what for me might have been a very snappy,

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fun conversation about a story we might include or not

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because I like to tell stories, or maybe Joelle like

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riffed on some part of the brain science and I

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was like, yeah, this is I'm lost here. I just

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thought that'd be fun. You know, at some point in

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our relationship we realized that maybe sometimes you actually thought

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we were more in a conflict than that was.

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It's interesting, and I think this is so critical to him,

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and one of the many reasons I wanted to have

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you on is so critical. I'll just quickly share and

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then I want I do want to get into the

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promise of developing conflict resilience and what it really means

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to for relationships the world of work communities in the

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world at large. But I can tell you my mother

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was married five times for the time she was twenty eight.

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I'm from the first marriage when I got married at

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thirty five and started having you know, discussions whatever you

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want to call them with my then husband. The first

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arbam we got into, I literally serving the room to

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see which pieces of furniture I'd be taking with me,

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because conflict for me means we're leaving, we're moving houses.

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That's what it means to me, right, And so that

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visceral feeling, you know, that's you know, as I know

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you've you've you've taught us in the book doctor Joel.

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You know, they got coded right, and neur really coded

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for me. So I had to un learned that over time,

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and I didn't fully unlearned it, frankly. So let's talk

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about just, you know, what could the world and our

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relationships and our world of work communities look like when

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we learn this stuff.

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Gosh, I mean, I would just say, it's just so

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much more vibrant, just so much more creativity, so much

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more connection. Bob has this expression that he says that

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that I really enjoy just like all of the yeses

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don't matter until you get to the first no. And

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it's just so true. It's this, you can't really be

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truly authentic and without having some conflict in there. And

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so if you're if you're really not seeing any conflict,

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something is actually not working. And so by Bob and

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Bob and I share this, which is like whenever we

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hear kind of like new couples talking about how they

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never get into a fight, we usually just kind of

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like brace ourselves.

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Was it just the first week, That's okay? If you're

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in month eight, I'm worried.

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Yeah, we're not really connecting here, We're not really talking.

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Yeah, someone is afraid or maybe both people are afraid too,

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you know, say no or say I disagree, or I

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see it differently. And there's just something about that first

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working through of the difference that gives you some more

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faith in the validity of all the other things that

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do seem to be working in the sense that there's

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gris there.

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But I'm so empathetic with what you said.

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Uh, doctor Corkadz, because I'm sure Joel can elaborate on this,

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that sense of the experience of being in conflict and

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all of the things that then make you say this

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is all over, you know, exit run for the hills, right,

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those are deeply encoded.

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And we think, you know, you.

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Asked the question and Joel answered the question of what

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is the promise of the book? And we think there's

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a huge promise for the book and we want people

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to buy in to read it. But here's here's a

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tough sell of it.

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It's a lot of self work.

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I really get that which which I saw that utility

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and value tremendously right immediately as I was getting into it,

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for sure.

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Mm hmm.

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Well, I you know, some people of course go into

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you know, more of the you know, the the reactive

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more shall we say, destructive or violent behavior. You know,

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I'm certified in crucial conversations sounds versus violence. But a

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lot of us tend to avoid conflicts. So let's just

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first talk about why do we avoid conflict?

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Yeah, I mean there is you know, it's from my perspective,

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it's very much grounded in the brain and these behavioral

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loops that we that we have and how we react

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to it. So when we perceive a potential threat and

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this comes a lot with conflict, the potential threat of

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physical harm that our brain is there to protect us.

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Our brain will usually do the first thing to decrease

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how bad something feels makes it makes things less bad,

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and those behaviors will usually be something along what we

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call the five f's, these default reactions of fite, flight, freeze, fawn, investor,

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but it can be any any other f probably because

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the idea it's just a behavior that we just kind

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of reflexively will do that we've probably learned at some

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point in our life because it just worked, or we

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saw somebody work for somebody else. But oftentimes it works

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in the short term, but not in the uh in

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the long term. And so just because it feels so

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good to kind of make that bad feeling go away,

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your brain really weights that heavy heavily, so that way

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you're just much more likely to default that the next

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time it comes up, which is why you know, you're

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much more likely to avoid the conflict or another another

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form of avoids is actually the plow through the conflict

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like a battering ram. And everybody has their own kind

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of specific kind of reflectors or default reacts as depending

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on the situation or the person that they're in conflict with.

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You know, whether you're in. Getting a distagreement with somebody

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at work or with the boss can be very different

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than engaging a disagreement with your parents, or your sibling,

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or your or your spouse or partner. So it's just

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so much in our brain is there to naturally there

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to help us, but actually stabotages us from really accomplishing

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what we really would benefit us more.

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H mm hmmm.

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So appreciate that insight. Did you want to add anything

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to that bub?

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I mean no.

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The one thing I'll just say because which I think

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just is a response to the cultural moment of why

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everything that Joelle just said is on steroids in this

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moment is not only does the.

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Brain get rewarded from that immediate avoidance, but we now

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have a whole bunch of tools available to us to

325
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get quadruple rewards. So what do I mean by that?

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Think about social media. Think about somebody who says something

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awful that you disagree with. You make a comment, They

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make a comment back, You make a comment, and then

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you know what happens, All of your people start putting

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hearts and lights. The hearts and lights are feeding this

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pleasure thing, right Like my people come to me and

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so no one's having an actual conversation, and yet the

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brain is getting these rewards for non engagement, because that's

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what it really is.

335
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It's non engagement.

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Mm hm, so so so important. There's so much we

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could take and we could uncover an unlayer here, but

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let's grab our first break. I'm your host, doctor at

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Las Cortez, who went on the air with Robert Bordon,

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a senior fellow at Harvard Law School, founder and former

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00:18:13.880 --> 00:18:17.200
director of the Harvard Negotiation and Mediation Clinical Program, and

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00:18:17.279 --> 00:18:21.160
founder of the Cambridge Negotiation Institute. We also have with

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00:18:21.319 --> 00:18:25.480
us doctor Joel Salinas, a behavioral neurologist and clinical scientists

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at the NYU Grossman School of Medicine, founder and chief

345
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medical officer at ISAAC Health, and former Harvard Medical School faculty.

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We've been talking a bit about where this book came from,

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00:18:35.720 --> 00:18:38.759
why is it important to cultivate what they call conflict resilience,

348
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Why we avoid conflict. After the break, we're going to

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get into their three part system and help you develop

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00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:46.720
conflict resilience. We'll be right back.

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Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning

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00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:09.799
and purpose, an inspirational speaker, and author. She helps companies

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00:19:09.920 --> 00:19:13.680
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired

354
00:19:13.799 --> 00:19:17.759
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and

355
00:19:17.799 --> 00:19:21.039
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite

356
00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:24.039
Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her at

357
00:19:24.039 --> 00:19:27.319
elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your

358
00:19:27.359 --> 00:19:36.119
employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose with

359
00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:39.440
doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or to

360
00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:42.559
open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Elise

361
00:19:42.880 --> 00:19:48.960
alisee at elisecortes dot com. Now back to working on Purpose.

362
00:19:53.960 --> 00:19:55.720
Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to working

363
00:19:55.759 --> 00:19:58.279
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes, as I

364
00:19:58.319 --> 00:20:00.240
am dedicated to help them create a world where people

365
00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:03.119
realize their potential at work, are led by inspirational leaders

366
00:20:03.160 --> 00:20:05.119
that help them find and contribute their greatness, and we

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00:20:05.160 --> 00:20:07.599
do business that betters the world. I keep researching and

368
00:20:07.599 --> 00:20:10.039
writing my own books, so my last one came out

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00:20:10.119 --> 00:20:13.359
is called The Great Revitalization. How activating meaning and purpose

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00:20:13.400 --> 00:20:16.119
can radically enliven your business and in order to help

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leaders understand what today's workforce really wants, and needs to

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give their best and want to stay. And then I

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offer twenty two best projects to help you be equipped

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00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:26.960
to provide that for them through your their experience in

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00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:29.400
your culture. You can find my books on Amazon or

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00:20:29.440 --> 00:20:32.559
my personal site at lasse quortest dot com if you

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00:20:32.599 --> 00:20:35.480
are just joining us. My guests are doctor Howel, Sorry

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there it is Hoel, Joel Salinez and Robert Bordone, the

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authors of Conflict Resilience, Negotiating disagreement without giving up or

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giving in a toolkit for coming together in a conflicted world.

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You see, doctor Joel, I told you I was going

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to help them dispanish. I can't help it and help it, okay,

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So let's as much as we can. I really want

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to help our listeners and viewers get some idea of

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this three part model that you have created. There's been

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name which is in dig deep, explore and be brave

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and commit and own the conflict. So I don't know

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where you want to start, but well, let's do this first.

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I do think it helps to make sense to give

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our listeners and viewers just a couple of examples of

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the conflicts that you showed in your in your book,

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because it will help them realize that just how much

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conflict really is everywhere. And so we have the personal

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example of Katie who wanted to celebrate Thanksgiving but shows

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to be back in Boston with her husband and family

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and her mothers in Columbus, et cetera. And then we

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have the two co founders, Joel and Julius, that have

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a business where they grapple with adding a new hire

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to the team. So you just kind of situate, kind

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of briefly, those two examples of conflicts, so you can

401
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get our listeners and viewers thinking about conflict in their

402
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own lives.

403
00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:50.039
Yeah, we could each take one of them because one

404
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of them is a reff of a story involving someone

405
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I worked with, but it is a wrath I should say. Okay,

406
00:21:57.359 --> 00:21:59.359
the second one is Joelle's real story.

407
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He's gonna talk about that one, okay, okay, but yeah, yeah,

408
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But the first one is really situated in family and

409
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a very common thing I think for a lot of

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people where we're going to spend the holidays.

411
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But one of the things that.

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As we kind of work through this, we learn is

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it's it seems like a zero sum game of well,

414
00:22:29.440 --> 00:22:35.440
there's only one Thanksgiving and someone has to be someone.

415
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Either the in laws are going to have Katie or

416
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her family of urgent is going to have Katie.

417
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And part of the work is if you could have

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a deeper conversation about the meaning of what the holiday means,

419
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the meaning of what presence means, and some of this

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is the interests that both people have here, there's a

421
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way of opening this up first is a way to

422
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have just more connection, which in this case mom and

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daughter because they're having not a fight, but a more

424
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authentic conversation about what's hard about this, what's complicated.

425
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But then also.

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Unpacking an example that we use that part of it

427
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is just how do we find some time for the

428
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whole family to get together and the notion that it

429
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may or may not necessarily need.

430
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To be on a particular holiday. So family is one

431
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big domain. But then Joelle's example is really situated entirely differently.

432
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Yeah, it's a work example. So I mean, I think

433
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this is a situation that many of listeners of yours

434
00:23:35.640 --> 00:23:38.519
can relate with. If you are involved in managing teams

435
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or responsible for hiring and bringing other people on when

436
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you have a limited budget, right for people to come

437
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onto the team, we have different priorities, and so the

438
00:23:47.160 --> 00:23:51.839
example that we share in the book is where weise

439
00:23:51.880 --> 00:23:54.599
myself and my colleague and we were trying to decide

440
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whether to hire somebody more senior in a role that

441
00:23:56.920 --> 00:23:59.920
we thought that was really important, and where the tension

442
00:24:00.240 --> 00:24:03.079
was was I really felt that bringing on the senior

443
00:24:03.119 --> 00:24:06.000
person now would really help to speed up all our

444
00:24:06.039 --> 00:24:09.200
progress along, would make us a lot more competitive, would

445
00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:11.200
help to bring a lot more structure and kind of

446
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clear the fog of war when you're starting something new.

447
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Whereas the flip side of that was, you know that

448
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they're kind of expensive, we might have the budget for it,

449
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maybe we should wait a little bit longer. And one

450
00:24:23.880 --> 00:24:26.279
of the things that came up in that conflict was

451
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there was a lot of back and forth on the

452
00:24:27.920 --> 00:24:30.279
merits of the situation, you know, a lot of like

453
00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:34.319
pros and cons, but we weren't really getting anywhere. But

454
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it it was only until we really just had like

455
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a much more frank conversation about kind of the concerns

456
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that we both had around the situation that we were

457
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able to make some progress around there, which was kind

458
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of concerns about not being competitive, but also kind of

459
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existential threats if you run out a budget too quickly.

460
00:24:50.680 --> 00:24:50.880
Yeah.

461
00:24:51.400 --> 00:24:53.559
Yeah, so so important to situates and people kind of

462
00:24:53.599 --> 00:24:57.039
continuing that conflict in their own lives. So let's dive

463
00:24:57.119 --> 00:25:00.200
into your your model here, your three part mons role,

464
00:25:00.240 --> 00:25:04.319
starting with name and dig deep. What's help us understand

465
00:25:04.359 --> 00:25:06.400
what that's about. I know there is various chapters that

466
00:25:06.839 --> 00:25:08.839
address that that one, but let's start there.

467
00:25:09.920 --> 00:25:10.079
Yeah.

468
00:25:10.119 --> 00:25:12.759
I mean, this is the invitation, and maybe that somewhat

469
00:25:12.839 --> 00:25:16.880
counter intuitive invitation of our book, which is that we

470
00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:19.640
imagine people are buying the book because they're thinking about

471
00:25:20.119 --> 00:25:22.480
a conflict with their mother in law, or with their

472
00:25:22.599 --> 00:25:26.359
co founder, or with their boss, or with their teenager.

473
00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:31.480
But the first part is really an exploration of the self.

474
00:25:31.720 --> 00:25:36.160
So when we say name and and uh and dig deep,

475
00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:40.920
what we're really meaning is trying to understand oneself one's

476
00:25:41.079 --> 00:25:46.880
internal conflicts better. We draw a lot on clearly what

477
00:25:47.160 --> 00:25:49.279
some of what Joel talked about in the first part,

478
00:25:49.480 --> 00:25:53.759
which is what is the what's happening chemically and physiologically

479
00:25:54.759 --> 00:25:57.759
in our brains when we find ourselves in conflicts. We

480
00:25:57.920 --> 00:26:00.279
also do a lot of drawing on like internal family

481
00:26:00.359 --> 00:26:06.119
systems and parts work. How do we identify the different

482
00:26:06.960 --> 00:26:11.400
conflicts that we may have internally that if we don't

483
00:26:11.400 --> 00:26:14.759
address them, well, we can't be as effective across the

484
00:26:14.839 --> 00:26:21.039
proverbial conversation or negotiation table because usually what's happening, for example,

485
00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:23.240
just to give it like a live example, in the

486
00:26:23.319 --> 00:26:27.119
avoidance move, there's usually a side of us that feels

487
00:26:27.160 --> 00:26:29.720
like we should say something, and aside of us that

488
00:26:29.920 --> 00:26:33.400
feels like it's not worth it. Well, when we avoid,

489
00:26:34.279 --> 00:26:38.359
maybe to preserve the relationship, we have maybe pleased the

490
00:26:38.480 --> 00:26:42.240
other person, we've also pleased the side of us that

491
00:26:42.480 --> 00:26:44.680
thinks avoiding was a good idea, But you.

492
00:26:44.759 --> 00:26:47.640
Know who we're still stuck with at night. The side

493
00:26:47.680 --> 00:26:48.960
of us is thought we had something to say.

494
00:26:50.920 --> 00:26:53.880
I know, yeah, yeah, you know, actually thought like I

495
00:26:53.960 --> 00:26:57.079
did have a point there, or I do matter, or

496
00:26:57.200 --> 00:27:02.359
my feelings are relevant. And if we can do that

497
00:27:02.680 --> 00:27:06.680
advance work that doesn't silence the side that says we

498
00:27:06.680 --> 00:27:10.160
should avoid. That's a real side, but that gives voice

499
00:27:10.279 --> 00:27:12.839
and life and legitimacy to the side that says I

500
00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:16.680
have something to say, then we're.

501
00:27:16.559 --> 00:27:19.440
Not going to be prepared for the second part of

502
00:27:19.480 --> 00:27:20.680
what we talk about in our book.

503
00:27:23.000 --> 00:27:24.799
You know, as I said to you, before we got

504
00:27:24.880 --> 00:27:26.759
on air. One of the things that I really appreciate

505
00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:29.880
about your book and your work that really aligns with

506
00:27:30.279 --> 00:27:32.440
some of the work that I'm doing in general, is

507
00:27:32.559 --> 00:27:35.480
just I see it as you're really empowering people to

508
00:27:36.079 --> 00:27:39.839
own their own their own themselves, their voice, what they want,

509
00:27:40.359 --> 00:27:43.279
and empowering them with a methodology to be able to

510
00:27:43.400 --> 00:27:47.680
step into that conflict in a much more productive, meaningful

511
00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:51.119
way that produces that growth that you're talking about in connection.

512
00:27:51.319 --> 00:27:54.119
And what to me, what that really speaks to is, now,

513
00:27:54.200 --> 00:27:56.839
what you've done is you've elevated that human being in

514
00:27:56.960 --> 00:28:00.240
every way. And how can I argue with that?

515
00:28:02.519 --> 00:28:04.519
Yeah, I mean for the for the naming step. The

516
00:28:04.599 --> 00:28:06.680
other thing that I'll just add is just, you know,

517
00:28:07.279 --> 00:28:11.400
even just the basics of naming, how you're feeling, putting

518
00:28:11.400 --> 00:28:14.759
a name to that physical emotion or physical experience that

519
00:28:14.799 --> 00:28:18.240
you have already helps to attenuate, to kind of decrease

520
00:28:18.279 --> 00:28:21.200
the intensity of that feeling. There's been some good research

521
00:28:21.559 --> 00:28:23.759
maybe looking at this kind of name entertainment type of

522
00:28:23.799 --> 00:28:28.720
effect where just taking a moment to just put a name,

523
00:28:28.799 --> 00:28:30.680
and you know, the more specific a name you can

524
00:28:30.759 --> 00:28:33.799
give it probably the better it starts to activate more

525
00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:36.960
of these higher order kind of frontal parietal kind of

526
00:28:37.039 --> 00:28:39.920
systems that are really important for deliberative strategic thinking.

527
00:28:40.680 --> 00:28:43.359
Yes, yes, And then you know what, as we described

528
00:28:43.359 --> 00:28:44.519
at the beginning of the show, when you guys are

529
00:28:44.559 --> 00:28:46.960
talking about writing the book together, you talk about the

530
00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:50.400
importance of understanding your own conflict tolerance. I mean, some

531
00:28:50.559 --> 00:28:53.440
people think yelling and screaming is just a conversation, you know,

532
00:28:53.519 --> 00:28:56.359
it's a dinner conversation. For me, it'd be like I

533
00:28:56.400 --> 00:28:59.279
would be running for the hills, right, And the two

534
00:28:59.319 --> 00:29:02.519
of you clearly have a different sort of conflict tolerance

535
00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:05.400
as well. And I think that was a really critical

536
00:29:05.480 --> 00:29:07.519
thing that was an AHA for me, was just really

537
00:29:07.599 --> 00:29:09.559
recognizing and I knew and intuitively because of the work

538
00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:13.200
that I do. I do broker conversations between organizations or

539
00:29:13.240 --> 00:29:16.640
departments that are in conflict or have some issues together.

540
00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:17.720
And I could see that.

541
00:29:17.880 --> 00:29:20.519
But I thought that that was a really critical thing

542
00:29:20.599 --> 00:29:23.640
to understand and helping people to identify what is my

543
00:29:23.839 --> 00:29:25.559
conflict tolerance level?

544
00:29:27.160 --> 00:29:27.880
Yeah, well, thank you.

545
00:29:28.039 --> 00:29:29.759
I mean it's something that has come up for me

546
00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:34.039
so frequently. And one of the things we talk about

547
00:29:34.079 --> 00:29:36.440
in the book, right, the idea of conflict tolerance. That

548
00:29:36.759 --> 00:29:39.759
an interaction that Joel and I may be having that

549
00:29:39.839 --> 00:29:43.920
I might experience as a fun conversation that he experiences

550
00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:49.319
that's affecting the relationship. Yeah, that's one that one domain,

551
00:29:49.400 --> 00:29:52.680
but there's also context in which it might vary. So

552
00:29:53.720 --> 00:29:56.400
I believe we talked in the book about another example

553
00:29:57.599 --> 00:30:01.759
where we were a turns out late on a draft

554
00:30:01.839 --> 00:30:09.079
of our book, No the thing, and and I was

555
00:30:09.359 --> 00:30:14.599
like absolutely threading this conversation. We also had to tell

556
00:30:14.720 --> 00:30:18.599
them when we thought we'd get it to them, and

557
00:30:18.920 --> 00:30:20.400
I think both Joel and I were like, it's going

558
00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:22.480
to be a few months, but I was like, I

559
00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:24.079
was afraid to say that. I was like, well, do

560
00:30:24.160 --> 00:30:26.680
we say it'll be ten days, because that won't be

561
00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:28.799
so bad, even though what happened to days.

562
00:30:29.960 --> 00:30:33.640
And for Joel it was more like whatever, it's going

563
00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:34.519
to be delay, it'll be fine.

564
00:30:35.480 --> 00:30:39.000
And part of what was interesting is at least as

565
00:30:39.079 --> 00:30:42.200
I understood and unpacked it, you know, Joel is like

566
00:30:42.319 --> 00:30:44.960
this high and this is true, but he'll probably deny.

567
00:30:45.039 --> 00:30:47.880
He's like a high end neurologist who like works with

568
00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:51.799
these like really complex patients and sometimes has to deliver

569
00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:57.480
pretty bad news. On a regular basis that disappoints people.

570
00:30:58.119 --> 00:31:01.880
And one thing that I'm really at is disappointing people.

571
00:31:04.240 --> 00:31:08.000
Me I was experiencing saying we need three more months

572
00:31:08.039 --> 00:31:09.519
or whatever. We I don't think we asked for three months,

573
00:31:09.559 --> 00:31:12.400
but whatever, it was eight weeks as like a kid

574
00:31:12.519 --> 00:31:15.119
to saying to somebody, you know, you have you have

575
00:31:15.319 --> 00:31:18.640
two months to live. And Joel was like, come on,

576
00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:22.480
So there's there's I mean, he was he was gendler

577
00:31:22.519 --> 00:31:27.240
and kinder than that, right, But but there's our tolerance

578
00:31:27.640 --> 00:31:31.759
or what we experienced as conflict may even vary contextually

579
00:31:33.200 --> 00:31:35.480
again because of the family which we were raids, and

580
00:31:35.599 --> 00:31:39.119
our personality and and and our own experience of like

581
00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:43.920
for me, I think when I disappointed people, it didn't.

582
00:31:43.680 --> 00:31:45.599
Go well for me. M hm.

583
00:31:46.160 --> 00:31:48.359
And this is why you know, your first step is

584
00:31:48.440 --> 00:31:50.200
of course, really digging deep in as you say, this

585
00:31:50.319 --> 00:31:52.640
is this is some really intense self work that can

586
00:31:52.799 --> 00:32:00.759
that profoundly help individuals, you know, teams, organizations, families, communities, countries, nations. Yeah,

587
00:32:00.960 --> 00:32:03.480
so really you can tell I'm slightly a fan of

588
00:32:03.519 --> 00:32:08.039
your work. Gentlemen, let's grab our last break. I'm your host,

589
00:32:08.079 --> 00:32:10.640
doctor Earles Cortes were in the air with Robert Bordon,

590
00:32:11.079 --> 00:32:13.559
a senior Fellow at Harvard Law School, founder and former

591
00:32:13.640 --> 00:32:17.160
director of the Harvard Negotiation and Mediation Clinical Program, and

592
00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:20.960
founder of the Cambridge Negotiation Institute. We also have doctor

593
00:32:21.039 --> 00:32:24.599
Joel Salinas, a behavioral neurologist and clinician scientist at the

594
00:32:24.720 --> 00:32:28.279
NYU Grossman School of Medicine, founder and Chief medical officer

595
00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:32.279
at ISAAC Health, and former Harvard Medical School faculty. We've

596
00:32:32.319 --> 00:32:35.440
been talking in this particular segment about the first part

597
00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:38.799
of their three part model to start to be able

598
00:32:38.839 --> 00:32:42.119
to develop conflict resilience, that being to name and then

599
00:32:42.200 --> 00:32:44.400
dig deep. After the recreating, you're going to get into

600
00:32:44.440 --> 00:32:47.079
step two and three, which is to explore and commit.

601
00:32:47.359 --> 00:32:48.079
We'll be right back.

602
00:33:03.440 --> 00:33:06.960
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning

603
00:33:07.039 --> 00:33:10.839
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies

604
00:33:10.920 --> 00:33:14.720
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired

605
00:33:14.799 --> 00:33:18.720
leadership and meaning imfused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and

606
00:33:18.839 --> 00:33:22.079
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite

607
00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:25.000
Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her at

608
00:33:25.079 --> 00:33:28.319
Elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your

609
00:33:28.359 --> 00:33:37.119
employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose with

610
00:33:37.279 --> 00:33:40.400
doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or to

611
00:33:40.519 --> 00:33:43.920
open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Elise A.

612
00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:49.960
Lise at Elisecortes dot com. Now back to working on Purpose.

613
00:33:55.279 --> 00:33:57.440
Interesting with us and welcome back to working on Purpose.

614
00:33:57.519 --> 00:34:00.240
I'm your host, doctor release Cortes. I mentioned a last

615
00:34:00.279 --> 00:34:02.799
break that my book came out, the Great Revitalization. What

616
00:34:02.920 --> 00:34:04.480
I did for you is I created a very simple,

617
00:34:04.599 --> 00:34:07.400
three page free organizational assessment. You can pull off my

618
00:34:07.480 --> 00:34:10.400
website Gusto dash now dot com, and that will help

619
00:34:10.440 --> 00:34:13.119
you understand the extent to which your organization is meeting

620
00:34:13.159 --> 00:34:15.719
the needs of today's very discerning workforce and then decide

621
00:34:15.719 --> 00:34:18.159
where you can shore things up. If you are just

622
00:34:18.239 --> 00:34:20.920
now joining us. My guest is doctor Joel Salinas and

623
00:34:21.039 --> 00:34:25.239
Robert Bordon, authors of Conflict Resilience, Negotiating disagreement without giving

624
00:34:25.320 --> 00:34:27.920
up or giving in, a toolkit for coming together in

625
00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:31.760
a conflicted world. So for this last segment here, gentlemen,

626
00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:34.159
let's take it home for our listeners and viewers so

627
00:34:34.280 --> 00:34:36.440
they can get a better understanding of your full model.

628
00:34:36.480 --> 00:34:39.880
We talked about naming our conflict and how we feel

629
00:34:39.880 --> 00:34:43.559
about it. In the last segment, let's dive into exploring

630
00:34:43.639 --> 00:34:44.960
and being brave as we do.

631
00:34:45.119 --> 00:34:50.000
So, yeah, this explore step it's important, I think we

632
00:34:50.039 --> 00:34:52.519
a little the more fun ones for me at least,

633
00:34:53.519 --> 00:34:56.920
because it involves two key steps, which is deep listening

634
00:34:57.159 --> 00:35:00.440
and effective assertion. And so the goal here is to

635
00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:04.679
really understand kind of what's driving you and the person

636
00:35:05.159 --> 00:35:06.960
kind of across the table from you, or the other

637
00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:10.800
person that you're in dialogue with. Then deep listening at

638
00:35:10.800 --> 00:35:12.519
the core if it is coming at it with a

639
00:35:12.639 --> 00:35:16.480
genuine curiosity about the perspective of the other person, really

640
00:35:16.559 --> 00:35:19.400
to understand where they're coming from, what are the facts

641
00:35:19.639 --> 00:35:22.440
in kind of notions that lead up to the headline

642
00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:26.039
of what they're saying, with the acknowledgment that you're not

643
00:35:26.159 --> 00:35:30.519
necessarily endorsing their point of view by by listening to them.

644
00:35:31.119 --> 00:35:35.199
And Bob can speak to this, but basically those that

645
00:35:35.639 --> 00:35:39.800
do the best listening are actually usually much better at

646
00:35:39.840 --> 00:35:44.519
also responding and effectively asserting themselves, which is that other

647
00:35:44.639 --> 00:35:49.320
half of that exploration, which is then letting your perspective,

648
00:35:49.719 --> 00:35:52.760
your kind of point of view, really giving it a

649
00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:56.480
full throated voice with confidence and clarity in these in

650
00:35:56.559 --> 00:36:02.199
these situations, and being able to really align your brain

651
00:36:02.280 --> 00:36:04.519
and body behind what you're saying so that way you're

652
00:36:04.559 --> 00:36:07.920
actually heard in that conversation. Bob, if there's anything you

653
00:36:07.960 --> 00:36:10.239
want to add to that, now.

654
00:36:10.280 --> 00:36:15.039
That sounds about right to me. I mean what, it's

655
00:36:15.079 --> 00:36:17.000
easy to say, it's hard to do right. Yes.

656
00:36:18.639 --> 00:36:20.320
One of the things that I thought was so compelling,

657
00:36:20.400 --> 00:36:23.360
if I have this in the right part of your model, gentlemen,

658
00:36:23.679 --> 00:36:26.840
was that when you really listen so well, and I

659
00:36:26.960 --> 00:36:28.599
know this from the work that I do too, because

660
00:36:28.599 --> 00:36:31.679
I've really literally seen people melt when they're really listened to.

661
00:36:32.440 --> 00:36:35.079
Is you talked about this is probably your side of it,

662
00:36:35.199 --> 00:36:38.320
doctor Joel, Where when people really listen with that kind

663
00:36:38.360 --> 00:36:41.480
of curiosity and that kind of genuineness, what happens is

664
00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:45.320
the other person kind of tends to soften and their

665
00:36:45.400 --> 00:36:48.559
stance and kind of meld into the listener, and they're

666
00:36:48.599 --> 00:36:51.840
more likely to be a little bit more empathetic or

667
00:36:51.960 --> 00:36:54.480
responsive to what the other person has to say because

668
00:36:54.519 --> 00:36:55.440
of the way that they listened.

669
00:36:55.559 --> 00:36:56.239
Do I have that right?

670
00:36:56.679 --> 00:36:57.039
Yeah? I know.

671
00:36:57.119 --> 00:36:59.840
There's been some really great organizational behavior work actually by

672
00:37:00.360 --> 00:37:04.400
doctor guy Ichikov. Looking at listening in teams, it's really

673
00:37:04.480 --> 00:37:07.599
interesting to see that when you bring in tenets of

674
00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:12.360
really great listening, being able to kind of have a

675
00:37:12.480 --> 00:37:16.360
stance that is kind of positive and nonjudgmental towards the

676
00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:20.480
other person, not being distracted and being able to reflect

677
00:37:20.599 --> 00:37:22.920
back and understanding of what the other person is saying.

678
00:37:23.440 --> 00:37:26.719
In teams, it just builds better trust, more cohesion. Teams

679
00:37:26.719 --> 00:37:30.480
are more likely to innovate extreme points of view, tend

680
00:37:30.559 --> 00:37:32.440
to like to so often just as you said, as

681
00:37:32.480 --> 00:37:36.039
you said, and it's just really good for the team

682
00:37:36.079 --> 00:37:39.239
all around. But biologically, this is a research that I've done.

683
00:37:40.079 --> 00:37:43.199
What we see is that people who are are more

684
00:37:43.320 --> 00:37:46.480
likely to have a really good listener are also much

685
00:37:46.480 --> 00:37:51.679
more likely to have a really powerful cognitive reserve, meaning

686
00:37:51.760 --> 00:37:55.159
that their brains tend to function much better than even

687
00:37:55.400 --> 00:37:58.519
kind of their brain looks just by the fact of

688
00:37:58.599 --> 00:38:01.039
having a good listener there. And it's also really powerful

689
00:38:01.119 --> 00:38:03.880
because to be a listener does it really doesn't cost

690
00:38:04.400 --> 00:38:06.800
kind of money, and any of us can be a

691
00:38:06.880 --> 00:38:07.639
really good listener.

692
00:38:09.480 --> 00:38:12.639
One of the ways in which you know, like brain health,

693
00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:18.239
I would say psychology and law come together is around

694
00:38:18.320 --> 00:38:22.519
this listening piece. And one of the challenges in law school,

695
00:38:22.639 --> 00:38:25.760
right is people think it's all about making arguments, and

696
00:38:26.079 --> 00:38:31.719
yet at the most foundational level going to court. If

697
00:38:31.760 --> 00:38:34.920
you ever go into a court, right when the judge

698
00:38:34.960 --> 00:38:39.800
walks in, the clerk will say, you know, people having

699
00:38:39.880 --> 00:38:44.599
business before the Honorable George A. O'tooles, judge I work

700
00:38:44.639 --> 00:38:49.519
for Judge George A. O'Toole, shall come forth, hearken and

701
00:38:49.760 --> 00:38:53.800
be heard. And why do you go to court?

702
00:38:54.480 --> 00:38:57.800
It's because you've been in a dispute with somebody.

703
00:38:57.920 --> 00:39:01.800
And you haven't feel how hurt and so you're like,

704
00:39:01.920 --> 00:39:05.239
you know what, I need to go somewhere where someone

705
00:39:05.400 --> 00:39:08.960
is going to hear me and force you as well.

706
00:39:09.920 --> 00:39:13.519
Right, So this opportunity to be heard, which is foundational

707
00:39:14.639 --> 00:39:19.480
in your first year of law school, connects to brain health,

708
00:39:20.039 --> 00:39:27.159
connects to relationships, connects to so many different things, and

709
00:39:27.519 --> 00:39:31.079
yet we skip over it, or we say it's not

710
00:39:31.159 --> 00:39:34.880
that important or it takes too much time. But we

711
00:39:35.039 --> 00:39:39.239
do that, I think on our own to the detriment

712
00:39:39.320 --> 00:39:41.840
of our relationships, to the detriment of our families, detriment

713
00:39:41.920 --> 00:39:45.360
of our businesses. So what seems like an efficiency move

714
00:39:45.440 --> 00:39:49.760
to skip over it actually ends up having really high costs.

715
00:39:50.639 --> 00:39:51.039
No doubt.

716
00:39:51.119 --> 00:39:52.679
And one of the things that one of the many

717
00:39:52.719 --> 00:39:55.000
things that I appreciate your book is just the sheer

718
00:39:55.119 --> 00:39:57.840
number of examples. You have examples. And there are people

719
00:39:57.880 --> 00:40:00.840
that are talking about, you know, to go on different

720
00:40:00.920 --> 00:40:03.639
sides of wars. I mean talk about, you know, the

721
00:40:03.960 --> 00:40:07.119
criticality of being able to put forth, you know, and

722
00:40:07.239 --> 00:40:10.880
explore a conflict with another human being. And to your

723
00:40:10.920 --> 00:40:13.000
other point, about being able to sit and listen, even

724
00:40:13.000 --> 00:40:17.840
if you crazily oppose that viewpoint, to be able to

725
00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:20.360
actually sit and listen to that in a way that

726
00:40:20.440 --> 00:40:23.920
the other person can speak their side really powerful, So

727
00:40:24.440 --> 00:40:26.519
you know, giving voice, as you say, and then setting

728
00:40:26.639 --> 00:40:29.000
the table. Remind me of what setting the table is

729
00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:29.440
all about.

730
00:40:31.000 --> 00:40:33.559
Yeah, setting the table is really about how do we

731
00:40:33.840 --> 00:40:37.079
set up a process that's kind of the fancy word

732
00:40:37.159 --> 00:40:41.639
for but the norms of engagement and whether that is

733
00:40:42.760 --> 00:40:47.880
a conversation with you know, an elderly parent about maybe

734
00:40:47.920 --> 00:40:49.960
it's time to think about giving up the driver's license.

735
00:40:50.360 --> 00:40:52.440
Yeah, Now, are you going to sit there and.

736
00:40:52.480 --> 00:40:55.360
Say, like, let's talk about the rules of engagement with them? Now,

737
00:40:55.400 --> 00:40:58.440
You're probably not gonna do with that. Formally, but you

738
00:40:59.079 --> 00:41:01.599
probably should be awful about when should we do this,

739
00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:04.239
where should we do this, how do we frame it?

740
00:41:04.400 --> 00:41:08.960
That's setting the table in a workplace, maybe a hard

741
00:41:09.039 --> 00:41:12.760
conversation with the boss. You might set up some other

742
00:41:12.880 --> 00:41:16.840
different kinds of process norms. If I'm facilitating a group

743
00:41:16.920 --> 00:41:18.639
that has to make a hard decision, it will look

744
00:41:18.760 --> 00:41:22.719
more formal. But the setting of the table is how

745
00:41:22.840 --> 00:41:27.400
do we create the conditions that maximize the chance that

746
00:41:27.519 --> 00:41:31.679
people can listen and also maximize the chance that people

747
00:41:31.880 --> 00:41:35.360
can and will speak because we need and you know,

748
00:41:35.800 --> 00:41:37.679
we didn't kind of get into the assertion piece, right,

749
00:41:37.719 --> 00:41:41.159
but we need people to actually feel like they are

750
00:41:41.239 --> 00:41:45.079
empowered to speak their experiences, speak to the side that

751
00:41:45.159 --> 00:41:48.280
says I have something to say here. We want to

752
00:41:48.320 --> 00:41:51.880
create the conditions that make it lowest risk for them.

753
00:41:51.800 --> 00:41:52.599
To actually do that.

754
00:41:54.639 --> 00:41:56.719
So one of the many reasons I keep hosting the

755
00:41:56.760 --> 00:41:59.880
show after ten years is that because I you know,

756
00:42:00.320 --> 00:42:03.719
this is an intentional way to catalyze my own learning journey,

757
00:42:04.199 --> 00:42:07.159
and I am called into organizations where there's conflict, where

758
00:42:07.239 --> 00:42:09.480
people don't feel like they can speak therapy. Then kind

759
00:42:09.480 --> 00:42:11.960
of it's a fear of it's a culture fear or

760
00:42:12.039 --> 00:42:14.280
a fear of culture, and so they just have the

761
00:42:14.320 --> 00:42:17.360
psychological safety is not present. So the third party comes

762
00:42:17.400 --> 00:42:19.519
in and can help broker that conversation to be able

763
00:42:19.559 --> 00:42:21.320
to get people to say what they really are so

764
00:42:21.480 --> 00:42:23.639
reluctant to say to the person they really need to

765
00:42:23.639 --> 00:42:27.000
say it too, not their colleagues, not somebody in the bathroom, whatever.

766
00:42:27.599 --> 00:42:29.840
So I can tell you I will. You're going to

767
00:42:29.840 --> 00:42:32.280
already help me better serve my clients by what you've

768
00:42:32.320 --> 00:42:34.320
taught me in your book already, and I hope in

769
00:42:34.400 --> 00:42:39.239
my own life. Well, yeah, yeah, thank you. Yeah. Is

770
00:42:39.280 --> 00:42:41.679
there anything more you wanted to say about the explore

771
00:42:41.760 --> 00:42:43.920
step before we move on and commit?

772
00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:46.639
No, I think we can move on to commit.

773
00:42:46.880 --> 00:42:48.840
Okay, let's talk about what does commit look like?

774
00:42:49.280 --> 00:42:50.880
Yeah, I mean I can start as off, Bob. And

775
00:42:51.679 --> 00:42:54.079
so one of the key questions that you bring up

776
00:42:54.119 --> 00:42:58.840
with the commit step is really understanding and deciding for

777
00:42:58.920 --> 00:43:02.440
yourself whether to stay and engage in the dialogue or

778
00:43:02.519 --> 00:43:07.199
to walk away. And we provide some helpful tools to

779
00:43:07.360 --> 00:43:10.239
kind of sort through that specific question. But I think

780
00:43:10.320 --> 00:43:12.880
one of there's there's a couple of things I think

781
00:43:12.880 --> 00:43:16.239
are really important to stress up front. One is that

782
00:43:16.320 --> 00:43:19.519
when we talk about conflict resilience, we don't mean to

783
00:43:20.079 --> 00:43:24.679
endure a really abusive or harmful situation. Conflict resilience is

784
00:43:24.800 --> 00:43:28.519
not about putting yourself at risk of harm to know

785
00:43:28.599 --> 00:43:32.519
whether it's physical or mental or emotional. We see this

786
00:43:32.599 --> 00:43:34.920
as tools to help to manage the discomfort that comes

787
00:43:35.000 --> 00:43:37.840
from disagreements with other people. But we don't want it

788
00:43:37.880 --> 00:43:41.079
to be an excuse for you to be uh to

789
00:43:41.239 --> 00:43:45.239
put yourself in a dangerous situation. The The other thing

790
00:43:45.960 --> 00:43:49.480
that comes up often in these conversations is around if

791
00:43:49.519 --> 00:43:54.000
the if you're really struggling in having a conversation or

792
00:43:54.079 --> 00:43:58.320
dialogue with the other side, do I do I still

793
00:43:58.440 --> 00:44:02.639
try to engage And you know, in brief one of

794
00:44:02.679 --> 00:44:04.719
the things that we bring up is just really understanding

795
00:44:04.760 --> 00:44:06.880
for yourself is the other person acting in good faith

796
00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:10.119
or not? And that might not be very clear, but

797
00:44:10.199 --> 00:44:11.840
I think the key thing is is the other person

798
00:44:11.960 --> 00:44:16.400
also wanting to kind of contribute to the relationship, contribute

799
00:44:16.440 --> 00:44:18.599
to the conversation and in ourn and it may just

800
00:44:18.679 --> 00:44:21.360
be a difference in in skills that's taking place.

801
00:44:25.639 --> 00:44:28.440
One of the big challenges I was I was on

802
00:44:28.559 --> 00:44:34.639
a call earlier today where this commit question gets mucky, right,

803
00:44:34.960 --> 00:44:39.000
this is somebody who uh getting to a lot of specifics,

804
00:44:39.800 --> 00:44:43.719
but it's an ex spouse and there's a lot of

805
00:44:43.800 --> 00:44:47.079
issues around the kids, and.

806
00:44:48.559 --> 00:44:50.599
There's a way in which.

807
00:44:51.400 --> 00:44:57.039
Exit isn't fully possible here, right, because there are the kids,

808
00:44:57.400 --> 00:44:59.760
they're minor kids, and both parents.

809
00:44:59.559 --> 00:45:04.320
Want you to be involved. But there are still certain

810
00:45:04.400 --> 00:45:08.079
decisions around to what level do I want to continue

811
00:45:08.079 --> 00:45:09.800
to engage herd issues.

812
00:45:10.159 --> 00:45:12.280
Or where do I pull back and say we're just

813
00:45:12.360 --> 00:45:15.159
going to focus on kind of the facts and the logistics.

814
00:45:16.280 --> 00:45:19.440
And so there's kind of different ways in which people

815
00:45:19.599 --> 00:45:23.679
may make decisions around commit right. At the basic negotiation level,

816
00:45:23.760 --> 00:45:26.440
we talk about how do you decide whether to buy

817
00:45:26.519 --> 00:45:27.199
the business or.

818
00:45:27.239 --> 00:45:29.159
Not or walk away?

819
00:45:29.719 --> 00:45:32.400
At the relational level, we then say, well, how do

820
00:45:32.519 --> 00:45:35.320
you decide whether let's continue to have this hard set

821
00:45:35.360 --> 00:45:39.920
of conversations about our differences on immigration, or maybe we

822
00:45:40.039 --> 00:45:44.880
just leave it there and then one step back, maybe

823
00:45:45.400 --> 00:45:48.320
the relationship itself is something that needs to end, and

824
00:45:48.480 --> 00:45:50.440
can I walk away from it. We can walk away

825
00:45:50.440 --> 00:45:55.360
from a friendship, we can walk away in a longer term,

826
00:45:55.559 --> 00:45:57.679
perhaps from a work situation.

827
00:45:57.440 --> 00:46:02.280
Not immediately, but giving some people some tools to understand

828
00:46:02.400 --> 00:46:07.000
how to do that from a conflict resilient approach, which

829
00:46:07.079 --> 00:46:08.800
is different from run for the hills.

830
00:46:08.840 --> 00:46:10.679
We had to fight, you know, as you mentioned earlier,

831
00:46:11.159 --> 00:46:14.519
but also not saying well, to be contact resilient and

832
00:46:14.639 --> 00:46:18.400
I must endure it all now.

833
00:46:21.239 --> 00:46:23.840
Chew something to add, Yeah, I mean, I think one

834
00:46:23.880 --> 00:46:26.679
of the things that you might you might have noticed

835
00:46:26.679 --> 00:46:30.119
this has been coming up more in cultures, these concepts

836
00:46:30.119 --> 00:46:33.480
of it's like no contact, which really is a family estrangement,

837
00:46:34.079 --> 00:46:38.840
and I think it's it's there are certain situations where

838
00:46:38.840 --> 00:46:40.679
it makes all the sense to do that. But I

839
00:46:40.719 --> 00:46:42.719
think one of the things we're really advocating for here

840
00:46:42.840 --> 00:46:46.880
is that though there may be some other options beyond

841
00:46:47.079 --> 00:46:49.639
no contact that could still be really useful for the

842
00:46:49.760 --> 00:46:53.760
relationship and really deciding for yourself kind of what what

843
00:46:54.039 --> 00:46:56.559
what is there in One concept that we bring up

844
00:46:56.599 --> 00:46:58.519
in the book is this concept of the Bigger Better

845
00:46:58.599 --> 00:47:00.880
offer or the BBO. And I think it's just a

846
00:47:00.920 --> 00:47:03.960
really important concept to really think about because it really

847
00:47:04.039 --> 00:47:07.840
helps us to really clarify for ourselves as vividly as possible,

848
00:47:08.679 --> 00:47:11.000
what is it that I want to get out of this, Like,

849
00:47:11.079 --> 00:47:14.519
what is the purpose behind this dialogue? This engagement this

850
00:47:14.639 --> 00:47:18.480
hard conversation, because really being clear in that will help

851
00:47:18.599 --> 00:47:22.280
to align your body and your brain towards being really

852
00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:28.440
authentic in that conversation, and also to really tolerate some

853
00:47:28.559 --> 00:47:31.480
of that distress that can come up from really thorny

854
00:47:31.559 --> 00:47:35.159
issues knowing that there's something better kind of at the

855
00:47:35.239 --> 00:47:39.280
other end of that discomfort. And this is the process.

856
00:47:39.519 --> 00:47:43.039
It's not one and done. We really see it a

857
00:47:43.079 --> 00:47:44.480
lot like when you go to the gym to build

858
00:47:44.519 --> 00:47:46.400
the muscles. You know, you don't go into the gym

859
00:47:46.480 --> 00:47:50.320
and start to lift the heaviest weights. You first start

860
00:47:50.360 --> 00:47:52.239
with low rates, get your form right so that way

861
00:47:52.239 --> 00:47:54.280
you can slowly build up to lifting the heavy weights.

862
00:47:54.320 --> 00:47:56.480
And it's similar here. I want people to start with

863
00:47:57.239 --> 00:48:00.920
relatively and more straightforward conflicts. Sometimes it can help to

864
00:48:00.960 --> 00:48:03.679
kind of give yourself a reading around the level of distress.

865
00:48:03.840 --> 00:48:06.880
These six SuDS or subjective units of distress, we want

866
00:48:06.920 --> 00:48:12.320
people to certainly be aware of when they're in the zero, one, two,

867
00:48:12.400 --> 00:48:14.880
three range, but we want people to focus a little

868
00:48:14.880 --> 00:48:18.199
bit more on the stretch zone of that four, five, six.

869
00:48:18.400 --> 00:48:21.960
Anything beyond the six is probably too much of a stress,

870
00:48:22.199 --> 00:48:25.159
a stretch until you can develop those skills to manage it.

871
00:48:26.800 --> 00:48:28.400
Oh my gosh, Iman, there's so much more we could

872
00:48:28.400 --> 00:48:30.679
talk about, and your book is so big and median

873
00:48:30.800 --> 00:48:33.199
full of ways to help. We've come to the end

874
00:48:33.199 --> 00:48:35.360
of the show, though. What would you each like to

875
00:48:35.440 --> 00:48:38.079
leave the listeners with, say, maybe fifteen seconds each?

876
00:48:41.159 --> 00:48:45.239
I would say, wherever you put yourself on your conflict

877
00:48:45.320 --> 00:48:49.280
handling capability from I hate it. I can't do it

878
00:48:49.679 --> 00:48:52.599
to I'm in the best in the world. You can

879
00:48:52.679 --> 00:48:58.239
get better. The more you are aware of yourself, the

880
00:48:58.360 --> 00:49:01.199
more self reflective you are, more tools you bring to bear,

881
00:49:02.039 --> 00:49:03.079
all of us can grow here.

882
00:49:04.280 --> 00:49:06.320
Yeah, I'll just add on that. Yeah, this piece of

883
00:49:06.360 --> 00:49:09.159
awareness is so critical. Awareness is more than half the battle.

884
00:49:09.159 --> 00:49:11.000
If there's one thing you take from this book is

885
00:49:11.440 --> 00:49:15.360
just being much more aware about your experience of conflict

886
00:49:15.440 --> 00:49:17.760
and what situations you struggle in which ones you actually

887
00:49:17.800 --> 00:49:18.159
thrive in.

888
00:49:19.880 --> 00:49:22.239
Gentlemen, I'm really really grateful to know both of you too,

889
00:49:22.320 --> 00:49:23.920
have learned from you, to have shared you with my

890
00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:27.280
listeners and viewers across the globe. I really look forward

891
00:49:27.320 --> 00:49:29.880
to staying connected, and I know our listeners and viewers

892
00:49:29.880 --> 00:49:31.000
are going to want to connect with you as well.

893
00:49:31.039 --> 00:49:32.519
So first, let me say thank you for coming on

894
00:49:32.679 --> 00:49:37.239
Working on Purpose, Thanks, thank you to be here. Absolutely,

895
00:49:37.320 --> 00:49:39.159
listeners of views, you were going to want to learn

896
00:49:39.239 --> 00:49:42.480
more about Robert Bordon and doctor Joel Salinez and the

897
00:49:42.559 --> 00:49:45.159
work they do, as well as their book Conflict Resilience,

898
00:49:45.199 --> 00:49:46.880
and one way to start to do that is to

899
00:49:47.000 --> 00:49:52.400
visit their website, Conflict resiliencebook dot com. Last week, if

900
00:49:52.440 --> 00:49:53.920
you missed the live show, you can always catch it

901
00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:56.599
be a recorded podcast. We were on air with Katina

902
00:49:56.679 --> 00:49:59.599
Sawyer and Associate Professor of Management and Organization in the

903
00:49:59.679 --> 00:50:03.440
Elder School or College of Management at the University of Arizona.

904
00:50:03.880 --> 00:50:06.239
She's also the co founder of Worker Being and the

905
00:50:06.280 --> 00:50:10.119
co host of Thriving at the Work podcast. She co

906
00:50:10.280 --> 00:50:12.719
authored a book called Leading for Wellness, How to create

907
00:50:12.760 --> 00:50:15.760
a team culture where everyone thrives, and we talked about

908
00:50:15.920 --> 00:50:19.039
workplace wellness, why it's important, and what's in it for

909
00:50:19.119 --> 00:50:21.440
you as a leader to improve it, and then discuss

910
00:50:21.480 --> 00:50:24.280
several key behaviors leaders can develop to cultivate wellness in

911
00:50:24.320 --> 00:50:27.760
their organizations. It was very, very powerful. Next week will

912
00:50:27.760 --> 00:50:30.000
be on air with Christie Smith, a co author to

913
00:50:30.199 --> 00:50:35.440
the book called Essential How Distributed Teams Generative, AAI and

914
00:50:35.519 --> 00:50:39.039
global shifts are creating a new human powered leadership. It's

915
00:50:39.119 --> 00:50:41.599
going to be a very thoughtful, provoking, and inspiring conversation

916
00:50:41.639 --> 00:50:44.320
about creating leaders and workplaces where people can actually do

917
00:50:44.440 --> 00:50:47.199
their very best work and want to stay. See you then,

918
00:50:47.400 --> 00:50:49.119
remember that work is one of the best adventures and

919
00:50:49.199 --> 00:50:51.599
means of realizing our potential and making the impact we

920
00:50:51.719 --> 00:50:53.760
crave and give us the way to be able to

921
00:50:53.800 --> 00:50:56.679
do business that betters the world. So let's work on Purpose.

922
00:50:59.599 --> 00:51:02.239
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to

923
00:51:02.320 --> 00:51:05.960
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortez,

924
00:51:06.119 --> 00:51:09.360
each week on W four CY. Together we'll create a

925
00:51:09.440 --> 00:51:14.039
world where business operates conscientiously, leadership inspires and passion performance,

926
00:51:14.159 --> 00:51:16.880
and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning

927
00:51:16.960 --> 00:51:20.719
and purpose they crave. See you there, Let's work on Purpose.