Business Leadership for a Human-Centric Future

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What's working on purpose anyway? Each
week we ponder the answer to this question.

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People ache for meaning and purpose at
work to contribute their talents passionately and

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know their lives really matter. They
crave being part of an organization that inspires

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them and helps them grow into realizing
their highest potential. Business can be such

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a force for good in the world, elevating humanity. In our program,

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we provide guidance and inspiration to help
usher in this world we all want working

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on purpose. Now. Here is
your host, Doctor Elise Cortes. Welcome

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back to the Working and Purpose Program. If you're tuning it again this week,

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I'm your host, Doctor Elise Cortez. Join you live from Dallas,

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which is home base for me.
If you don't know me yet, I'm

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anational consultant specializing in meeting and purpose, organizational local therapist, inspirational speaker,

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social scientists, and author. I
help organizations develop their team into inspirational leaders

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and career cultures where people actually want
to come to work and do their best.

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I provide programs like the Grab Your
Gusto that enable individual team members to

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discover and unleash their passion and purpose
at work to catalyze fulfillment, engagement,

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and productivity. You can learn more
about me and how we can work together

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at a least Quartest dot com or
Gusto dashnou dot com. Let me think,

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Let me think. My partner and
sponsor work Proud, we are a

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perfect collaboration. Everybody wants to know
they matter and that the work they do

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is meaningful and appreciated. Work Proud
helps companies to do adjust that through their

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mobile platform that is built to encourage
employees to share stories and recognize each other's

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contribution. Work Proud empowers hr and
business leaders to help create company cultures where

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all employees are inspired to feel proud
of their work and proud of their company.

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Learn more about work Proud and the
recent study they've commissioned about pride in

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the work at workproud dot com.
You can actually then click on the button

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there to actually get your copy of
the paper. With us today is Debra

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Westpall, who is an executive advisor, futurist, and author of Convergence,

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Technology, Business and the Human Centric
Future. Her career spans more than thirty

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years and virtually every continent. A
passionate humanist and lifelong learner, She has

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guided government and corporate leaders to challenge
biases, ignite ideas, and build resilience

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for a secure future. We'll be
talking today about the stature of this date,

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of today's business and the need for
and benefits of moving to a human

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centric future. She charges today from
Salt Lake City. Deborah, Welcome to

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work on Purpose. Thank you so
much. I'm very excited to be here,

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Lise. I'm glad and you know, as I said, you know,

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I love getting to be the host. And you know, I read

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your book cover to covered, so
gorgeous book well, extremely well written to

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It's clearly very clear to me,
my dear, that you are wicked,

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smart and passionate. I like that
combination. Thank you. I appreciate the

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compliment, and I really appreciate you
reading the book. Thank you very much.

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You're so welcome. I always like
to say when somebody says they listen

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to my show, I always say, so you're the one telling that with

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a book too, right. So
one of the things that I immediately caught

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my eye when I was reading your
book is you say, in some ways

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it's thirty years in the So if
that's so, then Debora, why now,

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why this book. Now, well, the thirty years was my journey,

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and my journey from you know,
being an engineer and a young NBA

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student thinking that you know, systems
and structure and organizational design was key to

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a successful business to really understanding that
it's humans that are the key to success.

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And so that was the thirty years. Why now we are in the

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middle, you know, we were
just stepping into the information age. We're

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very it's very new, and a
lot of our assumptions about how things work,

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how business work, are probably outdated
and we just really don't realize that.

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And so it is a key time
to start really thinking about this in

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a very different way. And this
is business, it's relationship with people,

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and what are we going to do
with all this advanced technology we're developing.

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I have been saying since the beginning
of the pandemic, this was a perfect

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time to really look at and evaluate
all of your systems, especially in any

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system of touches a human being in
your organization, to see which ones which

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which be many of them need to
be thrown out entirely or reinvented. And

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I do want, I can't wait
we talk about your idea of ubsolescage later

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on so important. So before we
get to that, though, I want

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to just start with the premise of
the way you've created this book. I

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think it's so clever what you did, and I love clever analogies that elucinate

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ideas, and so i'd love to
hear how you came up with the idea

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of your three part and analogy of
the book between the Galopago's ocean currents and

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technology, business and people. Sure
it was on a trip actually to the

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Galopagos course and if and if you've
ever been there, it's it's an amazing

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place. It's a set of you
know, some seventy different islands that are

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volcanoes or making new islands almost every
day, and each island is very unique.

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Some are big, some are small. But what is key to the

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Glopagos Island is this really interesting convergence
of ocean currents that are coming from the

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north and the west and from the
south that bring nutrients and perfect weather and

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just that combination to let the animals
and the plant life and everything thrive.

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And it was on a trip about
eighteen months ago that it was like,

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you know what this is like business, This is the business environment. There

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are these currents that are happening that
when they're in perfect balance, it creates

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an environment for businesses to thrive and
be successful and be created. If the

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currents become out of balance, just
like in the islands, it will put

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in danger the life forms that live
there, And that is the same with

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business. If we allow business or
the purpose of business or technology to kind

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of create an imbalance with what we're
doing for people, then it will put

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in harm our business too, beautifully
said, and I just thought that was

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so clever how it came up with
that analogy, especially with the name of

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your book, Convergence. Okay,
so next, then let's let's contrast what

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you talk about is the old universal
business laws and what you see as needed

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in today's business world. You know, modern business, the business that we

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know today is it's taken us what
sixty seventy years to create. We've gone

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through globalization and industrialization, and you
know, all the things that we've learned

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over those seventy eighty years have been
fine tuned for efficiency and effectiveness for a

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very different day, a very industrial
globalization, mass production perspective. Those laws,

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if you would, those things that
we know and have learned and have

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experienced over those past decades or passed
down from generation to generation on how to

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run business are no longer in some
cases relevant for an information age. We

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are globalized, we are highly connected, we have this advanced technology and to

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fine tune efficiency and effectiveness for business, there's there's something greater here that we

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need to step back and look at. And that's said, you know,

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that's where I made that statement about
it's time to do that. It's time

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to realize where we're at well.
And then and within that, you talk

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specifically about the human energy variable,
which is interesting for me because my whole

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world between meaning and purpose is all
about activating and elevating that energy from individuals

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inside organizations. So say more about
this human energy variable piece. You know,

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technology has allowed us to connect to
almost everybody on the planet, and

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soon we will be able to connect
with all the infrastructure and communication infrastructure that's

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being put in the world. And
what it's done is it's allowed people to

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connect to like people, to have
discussions and share dreams and hopes and fears.

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And so you know, this this
power shift, if you would,

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to people and the voices and their
desires have created this human energy has unleashed

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it. I mean, we've always
had that inside of us, but it's

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leashed it in a way that it
is more of a human system that needs

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to be paid attention to. And
you know it's inside our organizations, it's

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outside of our organizations, and it's
it's a very powerful thing when we really

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stand back and look at what's inside
an individual and what they would like to

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achieve. Just unleash that for your
business, and that will ignite the business.

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You're singing my song, totally sing
my song. I'm right there with

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you. As we were sort of
talking about before we got an air together.

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When I was reading your book,
I just kept going, conscious,

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this is so sounds to me like
stakeholder capitalism, conscious capitalism. How would

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you distinguish how your human centric opposed
to business and leadership is different or distinguished

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from those those you know, it's
not different, it's additive. And you

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know under that definition of kind of
stakeholder capitalism, you know, it's look

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at your employees, you know,
pay attention to your employees or your suppliers,

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your customers, and then the communities
that you operate in. Where I

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expanded is humanity because we are in
this time of hyper connectiveness that you know,

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even if you operate in a very
regional or localized community, your impact

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is probably regional or global. And
then we have companies that are already global,

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that are in thousands of communities that
you know, you almost have to

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redefine community to be humanity. And
what do I mean by that? You

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can take environmental impact as as a
problem of humanity or an opportunity that that

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businesses need to pay attention to.
So it's an additive, it's not distinguished,

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and it's it's trying to you know, expand expand that definition. You

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know what I saw on it Deva
and it's kind of what you were just

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saying before, is I feel like
what you're doing is yet you know,

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it's not different. It's it's an
expansion, but it's also like a honing

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in on that human energy piece.
Right, So you're really seems like you're

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really at your intent on activating,
you know, the promise of each individual,

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which I am too. Would you
say that's right? Yeah? I

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think so. And you know,
so many times when you when when people

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use stakeholder inside of business, they
define it as customer and and then they

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segment customer, and it's really the
people that buy their products. It's not

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those other people that maybe you're impacting
with some business process that you're you're doing

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or you know, long term uh
you know, impact on because of how

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you manage your water or you know, your how you're polluting the world,

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or how you're looking at diversity or
an inclusion as a as a whole problem,

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not just inside your your organization.
So I you know, stakeholder to

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me has almost been hijacked as a
word because it's really about customer and that

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hones in very very narrowly that I
don't think represents what advocates like yourself are

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trying to do, which is we
need to look at a broader sense of

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people and what we're doing and the
impact and you know, to that end,

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as you know, I'm on the
bard of the Dallas Conscious Capitalism Group,

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and on September twenty fourth, I'll
be facilitating for a group basically a

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stakeholder mapping exercise where we are actually
digging into each of those respective communities the

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customers, the suppliers, the community, the employees, the investors, right

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so really trying to really understand deeply
their needs, their interest, how they're

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connected, what's in it for them
to be part of your ship, if

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you will, or beyond your ship. So I completely agree with you that

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that term has been really, really
been overutilized, and therefore it's not as

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valuable as it used to be.
You know, there's so many kind of

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hidden stakeholders that we don't we don't
recognize or we don't analyze because it's a

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new thing. I mean, an
example I like to use is, you

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know, there's a thought that says, well, if we put everything on

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the internet and we do everything virtually, this will be great. We won't

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have to travel, we won't have
to get in our cars. We can

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bring down the carbon emission. But
in honesty, you know, all honesty,

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the Internet is you know, it's
the if it was a country.

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It's the sixth most populating country in
the world. You know, more Internet,

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more data means more data centers.
More data centers mean more energy.

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And and so if we continue on
the way we're doing with with just you

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know that virtual and data and such
the Internet, you know that those global

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data centers, you know, will
be the fourteenth largest carbon emission in the

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world by by twe and we don't
think about that. We don't think about

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that as a stakeholder. And that's
kind of the call to action here is

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we need a new set of tools
and mental models for thinking about who is

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our stakeholder. Very insightful. I
love that depth. That's very insightful.

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So what I want to do next
is I want to read a short little

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passage or that I think will be
music to not just the ears of mind

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as I read it, but also
to our listeners, and then have you

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comment on it. It's beautiful,
you say, let me start where I

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got Sorry, so the piece of
your work that has got been used.

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Okay, So you say, the
reality is with technology becoming more and more

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ubiquitous, people are becoming more important, not less. Only humans can bring

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the energy, the emotional electricity that
transforms companies, governments, and societies into

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forces capable of accomplishing extraordinary things.
Amen. Oh that's corseious, thank you.

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Yeah, that's right. Because we
feel we have compassion, we have

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empathy, we we have goals,
we we have families that we want a

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better future for, and you know, technology, you know, there's there's

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probably a whole larger conversation about algorithms
and and kind of what they are and

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what they're not, and you know
the dangers and the opportunities. But technology

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is not a panacea. It's not
going to solve everything. If you take

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the heart and soul out of what
we're what we're doing, and that's really

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what people, people are inside your
organizations as well as outside your organizations.

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Beautiful then and on that, let's
take our first break. I'm your host,

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doctor Ely Squartet. We are on
the air with Deborah west Fall,

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who is the author of Convergence,
Technology, Business and the Human Centric Future.

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We've been talking a bit about why
should write write the book and what's

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going on in today's world the RK. We're going to get into the state

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of today's business that so requires the
work that she's doing today. Stay with

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us, we'll be right back.
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing

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in meaning and purpose. An inspirational
speaker and author, she helps companies visioneer

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for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop
purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that

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elevate fulfillment, performance, and commitment
within the workforce. To learn more or

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to invite Elise to speak to your
organization, Please visit her at Eleasecortes dot

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com. Let's talk about how to
get your employees working on purpose. This

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is Working on Purpose with doctor Elise
Cortes. To reach our program today or

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open a conversation with Elise, send
an email to Aleise Alise at Elisecortes dot

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00:16:55.519 --> 00:17:00.799
com. Now back to working on
Purpose. Thanks for staying with us,

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and welcome back to working on Purpose. Before we get into the program,

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I'd like to invite you to check
out my book Purpose Ignited, How Inspiring

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Leaders Ignite Passion and All That Cause, which is on Amazon now. I

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wrote that book to awakened readers to
their passion and purpose and help transform them

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into inspirational leaders who enliven the workplace
and elevate the contribution business to all its

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stakeholders. I use this content as
a basis for my inspirational leadership and grab

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your GUSTO programs if you're just joining
the program. My guest today is Deborah

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Westpaull, who is an executive advisor, futurist, and author of Convergence,

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Technology, Business and the Human Centric
Future. She joins us today from Salt

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Lake City, I'm your host,
Doctor Lee's Cortes. So before we get

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into the state of business, I
want to go back real quick and cover

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that one last piece around on technology
that I wanted to get before the break,

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because it's so beautifully written, and
I think that you are so uniquely

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capable of rendering this the wather you
bid so you wrote in your book.

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We think about technology as applications,
interfaces, and most often gadgets. That

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perception, while accurate, is profoundly
limiting. Technology is perhaps some most concrete

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manifestation of human consciousness evolving since the
first stone chopping tool emerged nearly two million

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years ago. Categorically, it encompasses
the entirety of the human made artifacts that

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facilitate, facilitated, and in some
cases represented human evolution. Gorgeous, thank

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you, thank you. It is
a a it's a symbiotic relationship. It's

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you know it. We there's things
that we need to do, that we

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want to do, that we desire
for a better future, a better life,

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and we develop technology to do that, you know, and then by

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using that technology we we learn,
we unlearn, and relearn, and it

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is it is something that is human
driven. It's not something to be feared.

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But I think that's you know,
that's kind of where we're at right

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now, as we're relearning, and
that's why the human part of this,

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the people side, takes precedence,
and it always takes precedence. I really

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felt that it would gain access and
I think it read positions or reframes technology

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in a way that people can celebrate
and as you say, not be afraid

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of. And I really wanted to
showcase that. I just thought it was

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gorgeous. So yes, thank you, You're welcome. And before we get

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further into the state of the business
stuff, I have to ask you about

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your travelers, your travels. I
love to travel too, and you talk

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in your book about your treks to
Antarctica, trucking Kilimanjaro. You've been to

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Bhutan, which was on my list
until I was I was going to run

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a race in Bhutan last year.
We know what happened, so I'm interested

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to know how those experiences have contributed
to what how you see the world or

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business. You know the travel is
probably you do too. You go to

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all these places, you go to
the museums, and you eat their food.

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But what is to me the most
amazing is the people and their culture

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and having those conversations. And when
you have those conversations with people in those

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countries, you finally, I think
you realize that we're more the same then

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we're different. And to me,
I just that, to me is the

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most exciting part about about traveling is
knowing that you know the same things that

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I want for my family and goals. They are too. They're different experiences,

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but we're very much the same.
You're reminding me to I've spoke at

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a conference in Malaysia in August of
two thousand and eighteen. I think it

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was seventeen. I can't rememb which
one was. But what was so amazing

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about that is I told you before
we got on the air that I love

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languages, and I speak five different
languages, and when I was in Malaysia,

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i used all of them, which
is Spanish, Portuguese, French and

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Italian and of course English. And
what was so great is I hear them

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in this beautiful country and I'm meeting
all those of the people who I can

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talk with because that's my leverage point, that's my segue, if you will,

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And the connection is so powerful and
so profound. Anyway, so I

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love what for me travel. It
teaches me so much about life and myself

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and myself and myself. I've learned
so much about myself traveling that I think

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is very important. Me too,
Me too. You said something in the

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book that I well, it did
a lot of things in the book that

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I didn't know, but this one
here that's really striking to me. And

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I want to say that few people
probably know this or we call this either

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and that is that you say business
was more benevolent until the nineteen eighties when

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it began to move away from civic
belief and move more towards serving the shareholder,

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which of course we all know today
is very prominent. So what caused

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the shift towards shareholder primacy? You
know, it's probably it was, you

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know, the raising voices. But
there was a gentleman, Milton Freeman,

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who was very economist and who was
very influential. And again it was in

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the time that we were industrializing,
we were globalizing, and then you have

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this economist come in and say,
you know what, the sole purpose for

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business is to maximize shareholder profit and
that is the only reason for business.

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And so focus your you know,
focus your attention focus your energy, focus

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your organization structure on doing that,
and you'll be successful. You know,

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in some cases he was right for
the time, but now you know that

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is what what is different about today
is we are globalized. And so that's

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what I meant by in the book. And and you know, the challenge

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for people now is to realize how
we got here and to challenge whether or

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not those those same things are good
going forward. Well that's why, of

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course, as we talked about,
I'm very much a champion for conscious capitalism,

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stakeholder capitalism, and doing business that
betters the world such a it's a

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bigger reach when you say we want
to I want to help the world and

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want to help people rather than just
make money. Right to me, that's

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really kind of hollow. Money is
great, it's so important. We can

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do a lot of things with money. But when it's powered by passion and

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purpose, it's just such a better
end, you know. It's It's interesting

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because I've been asked if I'm anti
business and if I'm anti capitalism, and

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quite the opposite. I'm very pro
business. Business has so much power.

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They have, you know, so
much innovation and capability within their people and

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experiences and technology that they can spin
that to do something broader, and it's

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been proven, you know, in
a lot of cases that if you take

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this broader perspective, you're actually going
to be a better, stronger, more

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successful business. Oh yeah, I've
in my literature, I find over and

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over that investors are looking for purpose
driven businesses to invest in because they return

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a better, better return on investment. So yeah, so I'm sure we

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could find examples of companies that aren't
performing as well when they're purpose driven.

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But boy, when you're operating well
and focused on how to serve more people

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better really works pretty well. So
yeah, it's hard to motivate your workforce

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if all it is is about let's
make more money it you know, the

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motivation comes with something that touches the
heart, and that's what that purpose driven

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means. Yeah. Yeah, And
so to that end, one of the

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other things that I found really profoundly
interesting about your book that I did not

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know about. Of course, I
know about the quarter driven system of Wall

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Street, which I do take issue
with, but so what you taught me

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in your book, though, that
I didn't know about, was I was

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thrilled to learn about Eric Greece who
launched in twenty fifteen the Long Term Stock

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Exchange, which of course is the
first national securities exchange promoting a long term

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focus on for investors and companies.
So that's fascinating. I did go and

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look it up, by the way, since you brought that up. But

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tell us more about this. You
know, it's hard to take this,

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this longer view of some of the
problems that need to be addressed. If

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you're having to maximize for the week
or the month or the quarter, your

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whole decision making process is very different. And so by taking a long view

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and having being more patient, if
you would, you can take on other

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opportunities. You can take on more
these these opportunities to solve you know,

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bigger problems for people. And so
having that kind of support from investors,

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which you know, we there's others
too that you know, the whole business

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roundtable and and you know black Rock
CEO saying hey, we need to we

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need to start focusing on the long
term. Having that future focus and that

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longer term will allow a very different
decision making process. Yeah, and listeners

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and viewers, if you don't know
what Dever's talking about, and she talked

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about it in her book. I
talked about it in my book as well,

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that in August of the nineteen that
the one hundred and eighty one CEOs

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signed the Business Roundtable Statement saying that
we're moving away that the purpose of an

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organization is to serve all stakeholders,
not just shareholders. Essentially, that was

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what the statement said. Do I
have that right? Yes? It did.

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And now the trick is how do
we do that? Because again,

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our businesses today have been structured around
a very different kind of purpose, which

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is maximizing shareholder profit and being very
efficient and effective in doing that. Now

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the challenge for those those leaders are, Okay, how are we going to

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do that? And we're seeing progress. And also I wanted to call out

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since you had introduced me to this
long term stock exchange. I went and

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did some digging on Eric Rease.
I found a video, and I also

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found some news, and I did
notice that he's listed two companies now,

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a software company called Twilio and Asana
as of just this year. So I

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don't know if you know anything about
either of those, but I thought that

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was fantastic to hear. Yeah,
and you know, it's new and we'll

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see what they do for the long
term. But I think it's just very

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exciting that we have support and financial
support to be taken this longer view.

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Me too, I think it's incredibly
encouraging and definitely a good direction to pursue

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and flesh out. So okay,
So the next thing I want to I

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want to treat here with this as
your your new term that I believe you

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have. You have created obsolessage.
Thank you for that, by the way.

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It's just yummy. But I found
it delightful and also profound. And

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it seems that what you're you're you're
stepping in the notion that we're learning so

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much faster these days with human knowledge
Dublin, you say every thirteen months,

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but we fail to consider which of
those additional knowledge inputs a part of a

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time should be kept and utilized.
That is quite interesting in you, as

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a woman who started off in engineering
and know quite a lot about data.

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That really strikes me as pretty found
pretty profound for us to talk about.

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So tell us more about this obsolessage
and what we can do about it.

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Yeah, and absoletion, it's it's
obsolete knowledge, right, it's you know,

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we're creating knowledge at the speed of
heat right now, and and sometimes

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it's useful knowledge, sometimes it's it's
uh, it's not so useful. But

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we never stop, back stop and
consider, well, what do we what's

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obsolete now? Uh? An is
easy one for me to think about because

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I am that old. Is when
I went through high school, there were

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nine planets. We don't have nine
planets anymore more. In our Solar system

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we have eight, and we have
a mini planet. Pluto became a mini

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planet. And so you know,
if you don't stop and think about what

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we know and whether or not it's
relevant anymore, if we learn new things,

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then we have it's almost like this
garbage dump, you know, or

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or a messy garage that has all
this stuff in it that makes it very

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very hard to manage in an efficient
way. And so obsolete obsolete knowledge also

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includes our obsolete beliefs and biases about
how things work and how the world works.

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M h, Well, and I
can remember to your point. I

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think I can remember. I believed
I learned and you and are probably similar

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in age. I believe I learned
that only men could be color blind.

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My daughter is color blind, right, I'm pretty sure I learned that in

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school, and we no longer know
that to be true. Right, So

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that's that's an example of having to
weed out and get rid of obsolete knowledge

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that is no longer correct or service. I remember very clearly we were driving

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to school and she's and I said, oh, that's interesting. Why would

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they make that flashing light like police
cars? And she's like, what are

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you talking about? That's pink?
What are you talking about? So,

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and she'd been trying to tell me
that she was colored by but I told

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her emphatically, she can't be because
she's not male. You know. So

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there's a great example, right,
And these things get in our way,

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right, they get in our way
about how I mean, how many times

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do we we hear that in today's
in our organizations today? That will never

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work. We tried that, yes, you know, we tried that twenty

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years ago. That will never work. It doesn't work that way, right,

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And these things are just they're obsolete
and they're no longer used. Full

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to us to have these beliefs,
Yeah, they're limiting, and they could

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be actually devastating to your livelihood and
success. Absolutely, why so much?

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Why I wanted to talk about that
dep so thank you. So on that

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note, let's grab our last break. I'm Elise Cortez, your host with

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anair with Deborah Westfall, who is
the author of Conversions, the Technology Business

394
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and the Human Centric Future. We've
been talking about the state of business today.

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After the REK, we're going to
get into moving to human centered leadership.

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Stay with us, We'll be right
back. Doctor Elise Cortes is a

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management consultant specializing in meaning and purpose
and inspirational speaker and author. She helps

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companies visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders
and develop purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused

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00:30:41.079 --> 00:30:48.319
cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance,
and commitment within the workforce. To learn

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00:30:48.359 --> 00:30:52.599
more or to invite Elise to speak
to your organization, please visit her at

401
00:30:52.599 --> 00:30:56.680
elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about
how to get your employees working on purpose.

402
00:31:03.880 --> 00:31:08.160
This is working on Purpose with doctor
Elise Cortes. To reach our program

403
00:31:08.200 --> 00:31:14.720
today or open a conversation with Alise, send an email to a lease Alise

404
00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:22.480
at elisecortes dot com. Now back
to working on purpose. Thanks for staying

405
00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:25.039
with us, and welcome back to
working on purpose. One other bit of

406
00:31:25.079 --> 00:31:26.519
news that I have to share with
you, is that the anthology I've been

407
00:31:26.559 --> 00:31:30.319
curating for the last two years is
about to be released in just a matter

408
00:31:30.359 --> 00:31:33.759
of days. It's a collection of
twenty five stories of women from around the

409
00:31:33.799 --> 00:31:37.200
world who share their intimate stories and
all the messy details that come with discovering

410
00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:41.480
your purpose and how they're serving from
it today. So I'm so proud of

411
00:31:41.559 --> 00:31:45.240
us i could just bust. And
So the anthology is called Passionately Striving and

412
00:31:45.240 --> 00:31:48.240
Why, an anthology of women who
persevere mndly to live their purpose. And

413
00:31:48.279 --> 00:31:51.559
it's on Amazon now, So thank
you for your support in advance for reading

414
00:31:51.599 --> 00:31:53.599
it. If you're just joining us, my guest is Deborah Wespall, who

415
00:31:53.640 --> 00:31:57.799
is an executive advisor, futurist and
author of Convergence, Technology, Business and

416
00:31:57.839 --> 00:32:01.039
the Human Centric Future. To join
today from Salt Lake City. I'm your

417
00:32:01.079 --> 00:32:06.640
host at Last Cortes. So now
we want to get into this whole idea

418
00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:08.720
of human centric leadership, and as
we do, I thought I was so

419
00:32:09.160 --> 00:32:15.680
delightful that when I read your definition, I realized that your definition of leadership

420
00:32:15.720 --> 00:32:19.799
aligns quite nicety with mine in the
inspirational camp. So you say leadership is

421
00:32:19.839 --> 00:32:23.920
the fundamental ability to behave with humility
and wisdom, to engage authentically and to

422
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:29.359
inspire others toward achieving the purpose they
might never accomplish on their own. Yes,

423
00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:35.079
ma'am, Yes, I'm excited to
hear that you think the same thing.

424
00:32:35.160 --> 00:32:40.960
And it's I think in a lot
of cases that's not shared. Unfortunately.

425
00:32:42.279 --> 00:32:45.960
I think it's still kind of an
old mental model of what leadership is

426
00:32:46.119 --> 00:32:51.640
that they are there at the top, they should know all the answers,

427
00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:57.240
you know, they make all the
decisions. And I don't know how leaders

428
00:32:57.279 --> 00:33:00.720
can do that in a world that's
become very, very complex. You need

429
00:33:00.920 --> 00:33:07.839
everybody's you know, all hands on
deck on this and so open that aperture

430
00:33:07.279 --> 00:33:12.160
and really take instead of being at
the top of a pyramid, being at

431
00:33:12.160 --> 00:33:20.799
the bottom and helping others achieve their
greatness and support the organization well and beyond

432
00:33:20.839 --> 00:33:23.279
all that, right, what we
what will become in doing so is two

433
00:33:23.279 --> 00:33:31.400
things irresistible and impactful. Yeah,
and bringing our authentic self also gives hope

434
00:33:31.480 --> 00:33:37.720
and courage I think to others to
really that may not in you know,

435
00:33:37.759 --> 00:33:43.160
in other situations, may not bring
all that And I think that is that

436
00:33:43.319 --> 00:33:45.440
to me, you know, it's
so interesting to be where I'm at in

437
00:33:45.440 --> 00:33:52.960
my career, and because I do
have people that reach back after decades and

438
00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:57.920
say, you know, boy,
remember when and this was twenty years ago,

439
00:33:58.599 --> 00:34:02.519
and they thought enough of me to
tell me that I made an impact

440
00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:07.359
in their life and in their career. And I think that's very fulfilling.

441
00:34:07.799 --> 00:34:09.800
It is. And you know,
as you've heard me say before, everybody

442
00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:13.360
wants to matter, right, and
as a leader, we really get to

443
00:34:13.400 --> 00:34:15.079
matter to people's lives. And so
if you get to be the person that

444
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:20.280
helps someone literally step into and reach
into their shine, how amazing is that?

445
00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:23.480
Right? That's my call to action
for anybody listening in right now.

446
00:34:23.599 --> 00:34:25.559
That's what I would ask of you. Just think about what you can do

447
00:34:25.559 --> 00:34:30.400
to have people step into their shine
with your leadership. So to that,

448
00:34:30.519 --> 00:34:34.800
and also I wanted to I've never
heard anybody quite treat situational leadership the way

449
00:34:34.800 --> 00:34:36.719
that you did in your book,
which I also want to call it.

450
00:34:36.480 --> 00:34:39.079
It's really quite stunning. It's very
specific, and it's very profound. And

451
00:34:39.119 --> 00:34:46.119
so you showcase situational leadership as derived
from doctor Paul Hershey and doctor Ken Blanchard,

452
00:34:46.400 --> 00:34:50.440
who, as you say, introduced
the situation leadership theory, which suggested

453
00:34:50.440 --> 00:34:54.760
that leaders choose a leadership style based
on the developmental maturity of their team members.

454
00:34:55.239 --> 00:34:59.880
I've never seen that distinguished like that, based on the developmental maturity of

455
00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:05.239
team members. That that's pretty pretty
amazing, pretty profound. Well, that's

456
00:35:05.519 --> 00:35:09.519
I think that that is they're giving
of themselves to be a better leader.

457
00:35:09.800 --> 00:35:19.920
And and when they give of themselves
through being through humility or authenticity and and

458
00:35:20.039 --> 00:35:23.519
really grow with the team back and
forth, that is I think that is,

459
00:35:25.199 --> 00:35:29.880
you know, that is kind of
the goal I think, you know,

460
00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:32.800
and to do that, you know, you got to listen and and

461
00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:38.119
get out of the way and and
think about not the pyramid of an organization,

462
00:35:38.320 --> 00:35:44.199
but more of an organization like a
layer of pancakes, and you know,

463
00:35:44.519 --> 00:35:50.639
accomplishing things. And so I think
leadership is changing and we need a

464
00:35:50.719 --> 00:35:53.280
different model of leadership. Mm hmm. So one of the things I did

465
00:35:53.360 --> 00:35:55.519
want to ask you, which I
think you're just starting to speak to there,

466
00:35:55.599 --> 00:35:59.400
is you know, how can leaders
learn the maturity of their team members

467
00:35:59.440 --> 00:36:04.159
in order to them through their situational
leadership? Yeah, ask, ask,

468
00:36:04.360 --> 00:36:10.360
listen, interface you know, tell
stories, listen to stories and and really

469
00:36:12.159 --> 00:36:16.119
make it not just about the business, but make it about the human And

470
00:36:17.000 --> 00:36:22.760
you can do that within the business
for sure, but it's you know,

471
00:36:23.079 --> 00:36:29.960
I think we've separated the leader from
the rest of the organization. We've put

472
00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:32.559
them in an office and it's on
a different floor, and maybe that floor

473
00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:37.800
is locked, and you know,
that's not where the leaders should be.

474
00:36:37.880 --> 00:36:44.000
They should be with their people and
listening to their ideas and what's working what's

475
00:36:44.039 --> 00:36:49.440
not working. Two things come immediately
to mind, emotional intelligence and back to

476
00:36:49.480 --> 00:36:52.880
your storytelling. Right. So what
I'm seeing consistently over and over again in

477
00:36:52.920 --> 00:36:54.440
the work that I'm doing and who
I'm having on the show is the importance

478
00:36:54.480 --> 00:37:00.159
that criticality developing, that emotional intelligence. Have really been able to understand with

479
00:37:00.199 --> 00:37:02.480
empathy your team what they need,
what they want, what they ache for,

480
00:37:02.920 --> 00:37:06.480
and then to be able to hear
it right and make the place safe

481
00:37:06.519 --> 00:37:09.079
so they can actually voice their concerns
and what they want. And then,

482
00:37:09.119 --> 00:37:13.719
of course the storytelling piece for me
speaks to being able to share you know,

483
00:37:13.800 --> 00:37:16.079
both what did dev do amazing today
with the rest of the team that

484
00:37:16.239 --> 00:37:21.159
story, but also what is this
organization doing that's actually really making a difference

485
00:37:21.159 --> 00:37:23.039
in the world and cans you're part
of that. Yeah, Yeah, And

486
00:37:24.440 --> 00:37:30.159
a hefty dose of self awareness too, because if you don't know, if

487
00:37:30.199 --> 00:37:35.599
you don't know what your biases are, you don't really understand your core values.

488
00:37:35.679 --> 00:37:39.239
And it takes time to understand your
core values as an individual. If

489
00:37:39.320 --> 00:37:44.519
you don't understand how you make decisions
or why you make decisions, or what

490
00:37:44.559 --> 00:37:49.239
your triggers are, it's going to
be it's going to be less effective.

491
00:37:49.599 --> 00:37:53.119
I think those other things are going
to be less effective because it's more coming

492
00:37:53.119 --> 00:38:00.199
from a place of a to do
rather than to be. You have to

493
00:38:00.239 --> 00:38:07.760
know what you are to bring that
be part to the conversation. I think

494
00:38:07.800 --> 00:38:09.559
that was the price of a vision
work, the price of admission right there.

495
00:38:10.039 --> 00:38:14.519
Self awareness is so important and I
would say, truthfully, so much

496
00:38:14.519 --> 00:38:15.760
of the work that I end up
doing. When people say that they need

497
00:38:15.840 --> 00:38:20.199
leadership development, is that really what
they're dealing with is people that aren't self

498
00:38:20.199 --> 00:38:22.039
aware. They don't know what they
don't know, and they have no idea

499
00:38:22.079 --> 00:38:25.760
that the impact of shrapnel that they're
causing. Had a great guy in my

500
00:38:25.800 --> 00:38:30.159
show named Tim Spiker on My show
and he wrote a book called b Are

501
00:38:30.159 --> 00:38:34.440
You a Leader? Worth following.
And essentially what he's talking about is what

502
00:38:34.559 --> 00:38:37.360
happens when we work for leaders who
aren't self aware, who don't understand who

503
00:38:37.400 --> 00:38:40.119
they are in the world and haven't
done their self work, and that shrapnel

504
00:38:40.199 --> 00:38:45.480
that they throw out to their people
then comes home with each individual as they

505
00:38:45.559 --> 00:38:47.599
then tell their significan another about their
awful day and their horrible boss, and

506
00:38:47.639 --> 00:38:51.400
they kick the dog and they yell
at their children, and that, you

507
00:38:51.480 --> 00:38:54.760
know, the ongoing effect just continues
the ripple. So your point about self

508
00:38:54.760 --> 00:39:00.599
awareness I think is really critical.
Yeah, it's no yourself and you know

509
00:39:00.679 --> 00:39:05.400
when you can. When you do
that, you don't necessarily have to armor

510
00:39:05.519 --> 00:39:09.039
up with with a persona that that
says you're a leader. You know you

511
00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:15.599
can be. You can be confident
in in not knowing an answer or or

512
00:39:15.639 --> 00:39:17.599
saying, you know what, this
is a really hard problem. I don't

513
00:39:17.639 --> 00:39:22.039
know how to solve it, but
together I have the confidence that we can

514
00:39:22.079 --> 00:39:25.800
all all figure this out. So
I think that self assuredness, self awareness

515
00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:30.639
is is really important. And we
don't teach that in business schools. We

516
00:39:30.760 --> 00:39:36.199
don't you know, we don't UH
and we don't necessarily coach on that from

517
00:39:36.440 --> 00:39:44.360
UH from a leadership perspective, necessarily, I had a I had a boss

518
00:39:44.440 --> 00:39:46.920
a long time ago, and I
messed up a pretty big time and I

519
00:39:46.960 --> 00:39:50.719
said, you know, I need
to tell my team I'm I'm sorry,

520
00:39:50.840 --> 00:39:53.199
and he says, no, you
never tell them you're sorry, because you

521
00:39:53.199 --> 00:39:55.800
know, as soon as you say
you're sorry, then you show weakness.

522
00:39:57.360 --> 00:40:02.039
And you know, sometimes I think
if we teach some really bad, bad

523
00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:07.159
characteristics and habits, well, and
wouldn't you say that comes from obsolessage Again,

524
00:40:07.280 --> 00:40:10.559
that's somebody he got at the shelf, you know, from nineteen sixties,

525
00:40:10.599 --> 00:40:13.960
nineteen seventies or whatever, and he's
been carrying that around with them ever

526
00:40:14.039 --> 00:40:16.119
since. He pulled it right out
of his backpack to give to you,

527
00:40:16.119 --> 00:40:20.440
you know, and I hope it
sounds to me like you maybe rejected that.

528
00:40:20.480 --> 00:40:22.119
I don't know what happened in that
situation, but yeah, I've heard

529
00:40:22.119 --> 00:40:24.639
that a lot. Yeah, say
you're sorry, gosh, last thing.

530
00:40:25.159 --> 00:40:30.559
Yeah, but that's a great example
of that obsolete in that absolute knowledge exactly.

531
00:40:31.880 --> 00:40:35.880
Going back to your idea of human
centric leadership. One of the things

532
00:40:35.920 --> 00:40:37.599
I also found quite interesting about your
book is you say, the stronger the

533
00:40:37.679 --> 00:40:43.400
focus on people companies had before COVID
nineteen, the higher their chances of survival

534
00:40:43.519 --> 00:40:46.320
during and through the crisis. So
you also wanted to say, in a

535
00:40:46.360 --> 00:40:52.239
sense, value propositions shifted from what
companies wanted to sell to providing what people

536
00:40:52.480 --> 00:40:54.519
value most. And of course this
is the heart of human centered behavior.

537
00:40:55.119 --> 00:40:59.400
Pretty interesting, And so if you'd
say more about what you've noticed in this

538
00:40:59.519 --> 00:41:02.119
trend of these companies that have actually
been able to maybe not just you know,

539
00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:07.159
get by, but even maybe thrive
because of their focus on providing value

540
00:41:07.159 --> 00:41:09.679
and helping people. Yeah, I
think that it goes back to that purpose

541
00:41:09.760 --> 00:41:16.800
driven If if it's to serve and
to help, then then you got through

542
00:41:17.679 --> 00:41:22.400
You got through COVID a little bit
easier. If it was to sell a

543
00:41:22.440 --> 00:41:27.440
product that wasn't necessarily needed at the
time, and that was your soul for

544
00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:31.960
purpose to make money, you know, you probably you probably failed or you

545
00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:37.199
probably struggled. I use the example
of restaurants. I think that's a it's

546
00:41:37.199 --> 00:41:40.800
a really great example, and you
know, because we can all relate to

547
00:41:40.840 --> 00:41:45.840
it because we all had to feed
ourselves through this when everything started shutting down.

548
00:41:45.599 --> 00:41:50.920
But the restaurants, especially the local
restaurants, the local restaurants that really

549
00:41:51.039 --> 00:41:57.320
knew that this was about feeding people, making sure they got nutrition, sustaining

550
00:41:57.440 --> 00:42:00.800
life. They pivoted pretty fast.
They figure, you're you know, I

551
00:42:00.840 --> 00:42:06.079
can still cook and we can figure
out how to get that food to individuals.

552
00:42:06.559 --> 00:42:12.199
Those restaurants that really thought it was
a destination or acute place or come

553
00:42:12.280 --> 00:42:16.599
to my place so I can entertain
you. You know, that mindset didn't

554
00:42:16.679 --> 00:42:22.239
survive through through the shutdown, and
so I think it's a really great example

555
00:42:22.679 --> 00:42:28.199
of how, you know, some
lessons learn. I mean, that's not

556
00:42:28.280 --> 00:42:31.599
taken away from the tragedy of COVID
and how stressful it was for all of

557
00:42:31.679 --> 00:42:37.679
us, but I do think there
is an immense amount of lessons learned from

558
00:42:37.679 --> 00:42:42.800
a business that I hope we learn
and not try to go back to what

559
00:42:42.920 --> 00:42:47.039
we were in a lot of cases. You know, That's how I got

560
00:42:47.079 --> 00:42:52.920
the idea to offer the Grab your
Gusto offering because as I was sitting through

561
00:42:52.960 --> 00:42:54.039
the pandemic, and of course a
lot of the work that I was doing

562
00:42:54.119 --> 00:42:59.519
was speaking and developing the racial leaders
and doing culture consulting, which I still

563
00:42:59.559 --> 00:43:02.400
do today, what I kept hearing
over and over again was the concern that

564
00:43:02.440 --> 00:43:06.920
business leaders had for the mental health
and well being of their people. And

565
00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:09.079
I realized, gosh, I can
help with that because I'm a local therapist

566
00:43:09.119 --> 00:43:13.480
and the work that I do really
speaks to how to help teach people how

567
00:43:13.480 --> 00:43:15.760
to activate, you know, their
own energy systems through meaning and purpose from

568
00:43:15.760 --> 00:43:19.480
the inside out. That's a great
way to combat, you know, some

569
00:43:19.519 --> 00:43:22.079
of the issues that we're dealing with. And that's how I created that product.

570
00:43:22.360 --> 00:43:23.800
It was by listening to that,
and I would have never thought about

571
00:43:23.800 --> 00:43:29.920
doing that before. That wasn't wasn't
a natural immediate response to how I was

572
00:43:29.960 --> 00:43:32.400
doing my work. Yeah, that's
a that's a great example, and I

573
00:43:32.400 --> 00:43:39.480
think it's it really it tapped into
that human system because that need is you

574
00:43:39.519 --> 00:43:43.599
know, that need will continue whether
or not we go back to work or

575
00:43:43.679 --> 00:43:45.960
you a workplace or not. Yeah, and I know that, right.

576
00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:49.920
So this is this gets to,
you know, the combination of positive psychology,

577
00:43:49.960 --> 00:43:52.400
existential psychology. These are my jams, right, this is what I

578
00:43:52.440 --> 00:43:54.519
know, and I know this is
what creates optimal mental health and energy and

579
00:43:54.599 --> 00:43:59.039
vitality. So anyway that I actually
all happened, thank you, because of

580
00:43:59.039 --> 00:44:01.599
the pandemic. So not saying that
I'm grateful for the pandemic. I'm just

581
00:44:01.599 --> 00:44:07.679
saying that's a nice side benefit and
be clear. So we're getting close to

582
00:44:07.679 --> 00:44:09.519
the end here, and I definitely
want to get you to talk about you've

583
00:44:09.519 --> 00:44:14.719
got a six point framework for consideration
that starts with the realization that immense energy

584
00:44:14.760 --> 00:44:17.920
exists within the human system. So
would you say a little something about the

585
00:44:19.039 --> 00:44:22.719
six point framework. It'll help us
understand just that their breadth and depth of

586
00:44:22.760 --> 00:44:25.880
your work. Right, So if
we think about starting with that human system,

587
00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:30.599
and maybe it's my engineering background that
really looks at that as a as

588
00:44:30.679 --> 00:44:35.920
a system, humanity is a system. It you know, there's this a

589
00:44:35.960 --> 00:44:39.440
power source and it can be tapped
into, tap into that energy, tap

590
00:44:39.480 --> 00:44:44.280
into that desire, those hearts,
that innovation. That would be the first

591
00:44:44.280 --> 00:44:46.960
thing is to just recognize it and
figure out a way how to tap into

592
00:44:47.000 --> 00:44:53.320
it. You know. The second
point is realize that your organization was built

593
00:44:53.400 --> 00:44:58.400
for a very different time and for
a very different purpose. And you know,

594
00:44:58.480 --> 00:45:01.039
we benchmark off of each other and
we learned we all went to the

595
00:45:01.039 --> 00:45:07.519
same NBA classes and and and so
there's a common, uh, a common

596
00:45:07.599 --> 00:45:14.440
belief about how business is structured and
how it should be organized and run and

597
00:45:14.480 --> 00:45:17.360
so realize that is that is for
the past, that was the industrial age,

598
00:45:17.360 --> 00:45:22.559
it's not for the knowledge age.
You know, resist this strong momentum

599
00:45:23.119 --> 00:45:29.239
to uh, to just keep retaining
the status quo it is. That would

600
00:45:29.280 --> 00:45:34.000
be The third point is check yourself
moment by moment and the decisions that you're

601
00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:38.079
making. Are you making them based
on uh, you know, past belief

602
00:45:38.440 --> 00:45:45.639
and past practices or and uh or
are you are you really creating for the

603
00:45:45.639 --> 00:45:51.599
future and the future organization? And
that's that's going to take you to have

604
00:45:51.639 --> 00:45:57.440
to disrupt your beliefs. And we've
talked about this obsoletach and the behaviors that

605
00:45:57.800 --> 00:46:00.360
you know, when you're on autopilot
and you're running, running real fast in

606
00:46:00.400 --> 00:46:07.760
the organization, it is really hard
to be disruptive, embrace humanity and really

607
00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:17.519
that auth ticity and be transparent and
build trust and as a leader, that

608
00:46:17.719 --> 00:46:24.480
is really the call to action is
it's no longer a choice as to whether

609
00:46:24.599 --> 00:46:31.360
or not you really pivot to a
human centric perspective, but how you pivot

610
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to that. And I think that
is the call to action for the future.

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00:46:36.719 --> 00:46:40.719
Successive business beautiful to absolutely gorgeous work, really close out of time,

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00:46:40.719 --> 00:46:44.000
but I want to give you like
fifteen seconds if you want to go get

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00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:45.079
and close out and leave. This
is with anything you like them to know.

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00:46:45.880 --> 00:46:50.000
You know, humanity is changing business
and we need to realize that.

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00:46:50.360 --> 00:46:54.519
And it's the issues, is the
challenges, it's the desires, and it

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00:46:54.599 --> 00:47:00.760
is impacting our business and we need
to be aware of that and stand in

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00:47:00.800 --> 00:47:07.679
that place and reassess our leadership and
our organizations. Beautiful way to finish.

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00:47:07.679 --> 00:47:09.239
Dev Thank you so much for being
a guest on my show, for creating

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00:47:09.280 --> 00:47:13.119
and putting out this gorgeous book,
important book. I'm really glad to know

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00:47:13.159 --> 00:47:15.800
you. Thanks for being on the
show you too, Thank you so much

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00:47:15.800 --> 00:47:19.079
for the opportunity. Absolutely listeners and
viewer. If you want to learn more

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00:47:19.079 --> 00:47:22.599
about Deborah Westfall, her work,
her book, or her life and adventures,

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00:47:22.719 --> 00:47:25.119
start by visiting her website. It's
Deborah Westfall that meed spell that for

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00:47:25.199 --> 00:47:31.119
you. Deborah D E b O
r Ah Westfall w E S T p

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00:47:31.559 --> 00:47:36.320
h A L. Deborah Westfall dot
com. And thanks again to our partner

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00:47:36.320 --> 00:47:38.519
and sponsor at work Proud, which
helps companies build a platform where your workforce

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00:47:38.559 --> 00:47:43.840
receives meaningful feedback and thanks for the
work from people across your company. Last

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00:47:43.840 --> 00:47:45.400
week, if you was the live
show, you can always catch it recorded

629
00:47:45.440 --> 00:47:50.079
podcast. We were on there with
Natalie Benamou talking about the platform for women

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00:47:50.159 --> 00:47:52.719
she launched in a pandemic called her
c Suite. Next week, we'll be

631
00:47:52.760 --> 00:47:58.280
on air with Daniel Sanderson, the
creator of Planksip, a new approach to

632
00:47:58.320 --> 00:48:01.840
publishing that helps emerging thought leys with
personal branding by co creating organic content.

633
00:48:02.199 --> 00:48:05.559
See you there, a member that
works at least a feral life, So

634
00:48:05.800 --> 00:48:12.639
let's work on Purpose. We hope
you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure

635
00:48:12.679 --> 00:48:16.000
to tune in too. Working on
Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes

636
00:48:16.280 --> 00:48:22.360
each week on the Voice America Empowerment
Channel. Together, we'll create a world

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00:48:22.440 --> 00:48:29.960
where business operates conscientiously, leadership inspires
impassioned performance, and employees are fulfilled in

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00:48:30.039 --> 00:48:34.840
work that provides the meaning and purpose
they crave. See you there, Let's

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00:48:35.000 --> 00:48:35.960
work on Purpose.