Are Blame and Toxicity Killing Your Company?

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Doctor Release Cortez. Welcome back to
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for tuning in again this week.
Great to have you. I'm your host,

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Doctor release. Cortez jo any Alive
from Dallas, which is homebase for

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me. If we've not met yet
and you don't know me, I'm a

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management consultant, organizational logotherapist, speaker
and author. My team and I at

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now we can work together at a
last Cortez dot com. Now let's get

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into today's program with us is dust
and Stagger. He's the principal partner at

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the People Brand, where he unearthed
the heart and soul of his clients business

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culture and branding to attract their best
customers employees. Is the author of Blaming

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this book Rescue your Workplace Culture from
Toxicity and Scapegoating, which is talking about

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today. He joined us also from
the Dallas area. Dustin welcome to Working

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on Purpose. Thanks for having me
on at least, fantastic to have you

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here. As I told you in
our email exchanges and before we got on

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air, I think you've written a
smashing book. I can't believe it's your

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first book. It's just smashing.
Oh that's very kind of you. Thank

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you. So to kick us off
here, I want to situate here what

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you've done. You've, as we
said before, how you managed to actually

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distinguish blame. I didn't think it
would take a whole book to do it,

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but it did. But you've written
a very deeply personal account that helps

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us understand blame, it's perils and
how we can create cultures to avoid it.

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So I think it would be great
if we can open this conversation with

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your very first story in the book
of how you got fired over an issue

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blame. Yeah. So it was
early on in my career. I was

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working in an advertising agency and had
kind of worked my way up to become

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a creative director at a young age, and the owner of the business was

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one day we had been working on
a large project and it was a large

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catalog for a client. And this
is back when you would send out these

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print files would go out to film, the film would be made, then

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they'd etch it onto plates and then
they would print the project. And so

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we had gotten through the stage where
we had sent everything out the film.

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It came back and we got what
we're called proofs at the time before it

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actually went to press, and we
looked at it and there was an issue

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with every single page of the document. Basically, it was a page numbering

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issue, and so every single page
of that document was going to the catalog

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was going to have to be re
outputted for film, and it was a

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very expensive process. And so I
had a graphic designer that had made a

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mistake at that point. But as
the creative director I was I was also

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in charge of anything that went out
from that side of the art department basically,

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and I missed that. I reviewed
the artwork. I had missed that

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bring issue, and so when it
came back I took responsibility that that's my

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fault for that happening. That's my
role. I needed to make sure that

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that was taken care of, and
so it was something that needed to be

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redone. I talked to the owner
of the business about it and she told

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me, she said Okay, we'll
call the printer and tell them that they

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need to redo it for free.
And I told her, I said,

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well, that's this is our issue. We made a mistake. That's not

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something that I can ask of them. And so we actually ended up in

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a pretty heated argument over this,
which surprised me. I felt like,

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this is not the issue of the
printer. This is our issue that we

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needed to take care of. I
worked with the printer without asking them to

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do anything for free. I figured
out a solution that we could output one

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instead of out putting. At this
point, you would do three different colors

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on a four color document. Sorry
there's a lot of inside baseball here,

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but on printing. But instead of
doing all four sheets of film, I

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found figured out a way we could
actually just replaced one sheet of film for

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each page. That reduced everything by
seventy five percent the cost that we'd have

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to to redo that film. And
then you know, figured out a couple

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of other things we could do,
and got a discount from the printer on

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having that all redone. I went
back to the boss. I felt like

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I am owning this problem. I'm
bringing a solution, and I'm not passing

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the buck at the same time,
and still the owner was very upset with

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me, but we went ahead and
set that up, sent everything out.

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That was on a Friday, so
over the weekend. Still I'm a little

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bit upset about everything that happened,
because there was some strong words spoken and

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everything, but kind of work through
everything. Following Monday, show up for

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work, walking the back door of
the office and she is sitting at my

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desk and she has a little kind
of grin on her face and she just

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helped that moment you're fired. And
it just completely caught me off guard.

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And so in this situation, you
know, I was I was willing to

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take the blame. I wasn't willing
to pass the buck to blame somebody else.

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And because I wasn't willing to do
that, I ended up in a

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situation where I actually got fired from
a job. It you know, it

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turns out it was a toxic workplace. It was someplace that the values of

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leadership, you know, weren't in
line with my own values. But it

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was a tough pill and a tough
lesson to take at that point in my

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career. And a funny thing is
that, like it is such a great

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example of, uh, you know, a toxic work environment and about a

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blame culture. And at the same
time I had written this entire book,

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got through the entire first draft of
the book before I remembered that story,

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which became something I told at the
very very beginning. My editors like,

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how did you not think of that? Right? Right, it's such a

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great story to blame. But yeah, So basically, you know, those

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things that kind of they say seem
to happen to a lot of people.

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I've been talking to people all over
the country, giving presentations, doing interviews,

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having people tell me as a read
the book, they're like, you

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know, had somebody just say the
other day yesterday actually called me up and

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we were talking and he has an
industrial company that he's the president of,

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and he said, are you have
you been spying? You know it's exactly

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yes. Yeah. Wow, It's
just so powerful and that story was just

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it was perfect to open open the
book. Um, I don't want to

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say more about that as we go
here, but let's first go into the

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level would just be kind of cute
it up you do reference in your book

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an MIT Sloan Management Review article,
a survey by Revalio labs. It revealed

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that the toxic work culture was one
of the leading reasons that workers were leaving

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their jobs during the depths of the
pandemic, which we called the Great Great

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Resignation, So that toxic work culture
was more than ten times more important than

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compensation in their decision to leave.
That's powerful, it is, and it

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just shows you how big of an
impact this is making at the time right

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now where we've got a war for
talent and it's so hard to attract and

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engage and tame top talent. Right
now, we're putting in all this effort

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and trying to attract people into our
workplaces. But at the same time,

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are we really putting in the effort
to uh to attend to these toxic work

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cultures as well? Um, you
know, trying to put lipstick on a

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pig and basically make our workplace look
shiny and new attractive to somebody. But

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when they get in and they really
start to experience it, you know,

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are we allowing things like blame,
um, you know, a blame culture

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to you know, sour the taste, and then we end up becoming a

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revolving door for that top talent.
Indeed, and so you actually you you

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juxtapose the bad news and the good
news in the situation here. The bad

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news being that we're all addicted to
blame. We all we can all had

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this direction here, um. And
the good news, of course being that

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there is a transformation happening to move
away from that. And even even the

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Gallup Organization started working on well being
during the pandemic. So can you just

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wish just a bit more the bad
news and the good news here for us?

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Yeah, So you know, like
I said in the book, it's

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really the bad news is like we
all wrestle with this, right. This

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is something that in the book I
talk about there is a creation story at

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the heart of three different religions that
are primary. The over of the global

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population adheres to one of these three
religions, Christianity, Judaism and u and

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the Muslim face. So they between
the three of them, they have the

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story of Adam and Eve, right, and the story of the Garden of

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Eden, and what happens there is
that Um, they you know, Eve

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eats of the forbidden fruit. God
tells them like there's one thing you can't

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do, and they do it,
right, They eat of the forbidden fru

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Eve does, Adam does, and
then in this story you know that you

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know, whenever God confronts them,
then Adam doesn't take the responsible you'd love

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it to say, Okay, well
says you know, yeah, that's that's

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my fault. I'll take responsibility for
what I did. And Eve does the

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same. But he bucks the blame
and he blames Eve. You know,

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this woman did it. She tricked
me. And then Eve is there like

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he got two people in all of
creation according to this story, right,

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you've got two people in all creations. So one of them has to take

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a blame. So now Eve has
to you right, No, she takes

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it, and then she says,
the serpent tricked me, right, And

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so both of them try to blame
somebody else for something that they did.

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And the reason why it's at the
heart of you know, the very you

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know genesis basically of these three main
face is that it's a habit that is

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in each and every one of us. It is part of the human condition

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basically, so that yeah, that's
the bad news. But the good news

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is that there are companies out there
that are addressing this. There are companies.

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Um I have a story about Twilio, which is a company for software

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developers, and they basically having stated
different tools and their corporate culture for doing

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what's called a blameless post mortel and
so utilizing these tools by looking at objective

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you know, reot, cause analysis
and different things. There are companies that

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are actually saying, hey, there's
no room for this emotional overhead of blame

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and resentment. You know, what
can we do to actually take a look

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at objective facts, do an objective
analysis, and then actually do some problem

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solving on this instead of just trying
to find a scape good Yeah. Yeah,

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I'm also seeing just an elevation of
consciousness. And I do in my

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book, my Leader's book, The
Great Revitalization, I do talk about how

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I do believe the world has become
more elevated thanks in part to what we

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experienced and learned during the pandemic.
So I too am seeing some very forward

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reaching organizations do some really fantastic things. It's so exciting, so inspiring.

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So to that end, one of
the things that you saying the book,

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which I really thought was great and
built on what you were just saying there

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when it comes to the good news, is how about when a project fails

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instead of immediately wondering who did something
wrong? What if we ask what assumptions

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did we make, did we miss
the step in the process, etc.

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Right, So that's back to what
you were saying, is looking at this

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instead of who who's who's to blame
you? Who who's responsible? What's in

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the system that helped this go wrong? I think that's really really powerful.

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Yeah, And so if you look
at I think it was Demming that said

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that ninety four percent of all performance
variances can be attributed to systems and processes.

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And so whenever a mistake or a
problem occurs, or we have,

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you know, expectations aren't met basically
in one way or another, we tend

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to be really hard on people,
right, and we tend to almost ignore

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systems and processes at the same time. So we're soft on systems and processes

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and we're hard on people whenever performance
doesn't measure up. And what Demick says

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is, you know, it's actually, you know, I can't remember what

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it's like, sixteen times more likely
that it's a process or a system issue.

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So we need to be hard on
our processes in our systems, and

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we need to be softer with our
people in those situations instead, but we're

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and oftentimes we're doing the exact opposite
in which actually brings us right into the

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next thing. Here, what I
wanted to talk about, You say,

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what is the number one factor and
employee engagement? Positive motivation? And so

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if we talk a little bit distinguished
positive motivation from and this is where people

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actually feel like they matter, that
they they're seeing, they're cared for,

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etc. Versus the negative motivation.
If you can distinguish that for us and

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kind of what happens when people experience
that negative motivation. Yeah, so there's

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some conversation around Like a while back, Douglas McGregor wrote a book and back

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in the nineteen sees, The Human
Side of Enterprise, right, and so

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he talked about two different kinds of
leadership styles, and he talked about X

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theory leadership and Y theory leadership,
right, And so the X theory leadership

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is a leader that typically thinks that
you know, you have to stay on

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top of people, you need to
crack the whip, you have to motivate

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them with the cats away the mice
will play. Basically that people you know

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inherently lazy and you know, unless
you really stay on top of them,

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basically they're not going to get the
work done right and so uh and then

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the theory ye leader says, Okay, well, people inherently want to engage

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in the work, they want to
be fulfilled by the work, and my

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job as a leader is to remove
the obstacles that keep them from being able

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to do a good job right.
And so I think there's a lot of

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you know, there's a place really
for for both of those theories. I'm

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not saying that, um, you
know that the theory X leadership style is

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completely bad. There are places like
there's Amazon fulfillment centers where they really need

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to day. On top of that, they hire people basically that you know,

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that's what they're looking for. They
basically want to be told what to

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do short order cooks or give me
an order. I'll make the food,

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you know, I know I have
to do it in this certain amount of

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time. And there's all different variations
of that. But in a lot of

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workplaces, you know, there are
people that they're looking for some autonomy,

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they're looking for ways. I think
Dan Pink talks about autonomy, mastery and

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purpose right, it does that AMP
is kind of the acronym that I used

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to remember that and that people are
fulfilled in the work that they do and

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they will be motivated and they'll be
driven, right because it's a book called

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Drive was the name of the book
that he set that in. And so

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if we are able to attend to
that and most people and you hire the

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kind of people that that's what they're
looking for. They're not the kind of

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people that are just order takers.
And that's the kind of culture that you

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want. It's people that you know, take initiative and they own the issue

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and they engage in that work.
Then you need to be more of that

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you know, theory why style of
leader, and you need to start removing

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the obstacles that are in people's way
instead of micro managing them instead. And

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there's you know we talked about You've
probably seen all the surveys around engagement that

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Gallup does as well, and so
you're talking about, you know, typically

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is about when those come out,
it doesn't seem like the needle has moved

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very much on engagement, and it
hasn't. Yeah, And so you get

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about what they say about a third
in a decent workforce, you got a

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third of your workforce it's actually engaged, and you've got two thirds of them

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that are either non engaged or they're
actively disengaged. Right, just one out

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of three people being engaged is the
standard for excellence. It's like that,

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it's a really low bar. So
what can we do to actually engage people

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in their work, you know,
help them feel fulfilled? And I think

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it's coming from both sides. It's
the leadership wants it and the workers want

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that as well. And so what's
that gap that's happening? And my thesis

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in this book is the gap is
that people are afraid. They're afraid of

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failure. And you hear that a
lot, but yes, that is that

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they're afraid that if they fail,
then they're going to be saddled with blame.

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And so if you can actually do
that, you can actually if you

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can actually remove the hindrance that blame
creates and blame culture and the fear that

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that creates, then you have people
that say, okay, you know what,

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it's actually okay for us to fail. But as long as we're able

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to learn from that failure and then
to make changes and move forward, beautiful.

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Let's let our listeners and viewers stew
on that while we take our first

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break here, just really thinking about
the extent to which their own workplaces may

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have this blame inside their cultures.
I'm your host, talk to Earli's Cortez.

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00:17:47.119 --> 00:17:49.319
We've been on the air with Dustin
Steger, the principal partner at The

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00:17:49.359 --> 00:17:52.839
People Brand, where he unearthed the
heart and soul of his clients business culture

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00:17:52.839 --> 00:17:57.160
and branding to attract their best customers
employees. He's the author to Blame this

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00:17:57.200 --> 00:18:02.880
book, Rescue your workplace culture from
toxicity and scapegoating. We've been talking a

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00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:06.519
bit about his own experience with Blaine
and help bringing it to light just what

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it looks like, feels like,
and does to the bottom line results of

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an organization and to the hearts of
the people. Says, We'll be right

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back. Doctor Elise Cortez is a
management consultant specializing in meaning and purpose.

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An inspirational speaker and author, she
helps companies visioneer for a greater purpose among

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stakeholders and develop purpose inspired leadership and
meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance,

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and commitment within the workforce. To
learn more or to invite a lease

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00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:51.839
to speak to your organization, please
visit her at Elise Cortez dot com.

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00:18:51.920 --> 00:19:00.400
Let's talk about how to get your
employees working on purpose. This is working

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00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:04.799
on Purpose with doctor Elease Cortez.
To reach our program today or to open

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00:19:04.839 --> 00:19:11.039
a conversation with a Lease, send
an email to a Lease ali Se at

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00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:21.000
Elise Cortez dot com. Now back
to working on Purpose. Thank you for

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00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:22.599
staying with us. Before we get
back into the program, I'm very excited

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to announce to you the launch of
the Purpose and Joy Tour. This is

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a collaboration with Joilie and an organization
that teaches mindful practices to build a happy,

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00:19:30.920 --> 00:19:33.599
healthy, resilient world, and my
firm at Least Cortez and associates that

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exist to awaken people to their passion
and purpose and build leadership and cultures that

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support these efforts. Together, we're
going through thirty three cities across the United

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00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:45.480
States, starting in Dallas in March
and finishing in Virginia Beach in October to

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00:19:45.559 --> 00:19:48.920
find our tribe and build a community
of people who seek to elevate their lives

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00:19:48.920 --> 00:19:52.680
and businesses by cultivating meaning, purpose
and joy. You can find the list

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00:19:52.759 --> 00:19:57.759
of cities, states and planned events
at Gusto dashnow dot Com, Forward Slash

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00:19:57.839 --> 00:20:02.720
Events very decided to hope to see
you there if you're just now joining the

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program. My guest is Dustin Steaker. He's the author of Blame, this

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book Rescue your workplace culture from toxicity
and scapegoating. I'm your host, Talctorvis

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Cortez. So from here, if
you would you have to share this story

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about you know the rest of the
story here is this continue to unfold in

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00:20:18.920 --> 00:20:23.799
your life? Here you talk about
this quote snake pit of a professional financial

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00:20:23.799 --> 00:20:29.279
woes that you were experiencing that kicked
off your own personal tragedy and resulted in

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something pretty pretty devastating in your life. Would you situate what was happening for

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00:20:33.519 --> 00:20:37.720
you to help us understand how it
is related to what you address in your

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00:20:37.720 --> 00:20:41.440
book around blame and just how that
manifests in your life. Yeah, so

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this is, you know, something
that I struggled with personally. So it's

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it's you know, something that's deeply
personal. Would be in writing this book

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and even in portions of this book. You know, I became very emotionally

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charged for me as I was writing
it. I had yeah, yeah,

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and so I came to a moment
where we had I had worked my way

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back into working in the agency world
again of marketing and advertising, and I

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had my wife and I had taken
out some loans and we had vistened into

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a company and things seemed to be
going pretty well. But the company was

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really centered around the the residential real
estate market, and this was back in

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two thousand and six, and we
kind of were going like gangbusters for a

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while and really growing well as the
real estate market was booming. But as

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a lot of people know, in
two thousand and eight, you know,

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with subprime lending and everything, that
the bubble popped at that point, and

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we moved into the Great Recession,
and it really impacted our business, of

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course, and we had customers that
just went completely out of business at this

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point. We had customers that you
cut way back when their marketing budgets,

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and so we got to a place
where we actually had to close up show

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and basically I had to find a
different job at that point, and which

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was challenging because in the middle of
a recession and so we're in some financial

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difficulty. We had some medical bills
that we had to take care of at

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the same time, and then we
had an issue where It was kind of

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a snapping point for me, which
was that we had a washer and dryer

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that we had to replace. So
we had financial that that we had to

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take on for that at that moment, and then whenever we did. The

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installers did a subpar job of installing
the washing machine and they crossed threaded the

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waterline on it. And so in
the middle of the night, we were

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woken by our young son who said
that, you know, the roof was

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leaking downstairs in our house, and
you know that's never a good thing.

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So I had a pretty good idea
of what was going on at that point,

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and so I ran into our laundry. We had upstairs laundry room,

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which thankfully we don't have one of
those anymore. But um, basically the

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entire laundry flooded. Water was sprang
from across from behind the washing machine onto

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the floor. I've walked into several
inches of water and it was pouring through

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the downstairs sitting into our dining room. And so we had to get a

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lot of stuff replace. I won't
go into a lot of details, but

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we had to fight with the insurance
company of the contract installers that had done

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the work and weren't able to get
one hundred percent replacement for everything, and

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so we had some financial commitments at
that point which we weren't really prepared for.

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And so then we find ourselves that
we're at a carpet store. We're

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going to replace the carpet from this
incident, and all of a sudden,

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as we're trying to finalize the price
of the carpet and everything that we're ordering

332
00:23:45.640 --> 00:23:48.480
with the salesperson, my foot feels
like it's asleep. And it's really strange

333
00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:55.559
because I'm standing and typically that happens
if you're sitting oddly or something, and

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00:23:55.839 --> 00:23:57.960
that standing up, like my foot
just saidn't fall asleep, and so I

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00:23:59.039 --> 00:24:00.920
just kind of tap it, you
know, it keeps tingling, and then

336
00:24:00.920 --> 00:24:04.920
all of a sudden that that numbness
kind of has crept up and it's moving

337
00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:07.440
up my leg and I tell my
wife's like, there's something going on.

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00:24:07.480 --> 00:24:11.000
This is really weird. She said, well, maybe you should call it

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the doctor. And so I stepped
outside called the doctor's office and I'm like,

340
00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:17.880
you know, should I know,
come by the doctor's office and they

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00:24:17.880 --> 00:24:22.319
say, no, you need to
go to the closest emergency room right right

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away, and so m I go
and I tell my wife this and at

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this point, like the numbness is
up to my waist and it's only on

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the right side of my body.
Should have been an indicator. And so

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we you know, luckily there's a
hospital about a mile away. I'm getting

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00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:44.119
the car drive directly there. As
we're pulling in, Um, I am

347
00:24:44.160 --> 00:24:45.839
now like numb all the way up
to the top of my head, only

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00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:49.160
on the right side of my body, so I can't feel it when I

349
00:24:49.160 --> 00:24:52.960
tap on this on the right side, and when I tap on the left

350
00:24:52.960 --> 00:24:55.359
side, I can't feel all the
way down, you know, each side

351
00:24:55.359 --> 00:24:59.000
of my nose, just like there's
a line right down the middle of my

352
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body. And uh. And then
as we're pulling into the parking lot,

353
00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:07.400
I tried to point out there there
was a parking spot close to the emergency

354
00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:10.079
room. And as I pointed out
to my wife and try to tell her

355
00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:14.319
about it, the words out of
my mouth is just you know, garbled.

356
00:25:14.480 --> 00:25:15.559
It's like God, brow it up, you know, like it just

357
00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:18.960
doesn't make any sense. And that's
when it dawns on me. It's like,

358
00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:25.119
oh my gosh, I'm having a
stroke, you know, And so

359
00:25:25.640 --> 00:25:27.799
I start to think, Wow,
this could be it. I mean,

360
00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:33.039
strokes kill people all the time.
I might not make it through this,

361
00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:37.279
and it just, you know,
scared me, and so we go in.

362
00:25:37.079 --> 00:25:40.880
My wife said it was all a
blur to me at this point,

363
00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:45.519
but she said that entriage, they're
asking me questions, I'm giving them wrong

364
00:25:45.559 --> 00:25:48.839
answers to a lot of stuff.
She said, I gave a birthdate that

365
00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:52.480
didn't make any sense. It wasn't
my birthday, what didn't relate to anybody

366
00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:57.920
else's birthday. And so I'm just
very confused and having a difficult time thinking

367
00:25:59.039 --> 00:26:03.200
or talking. And so they placed
me in a room to observe me and

368
00:26:03.480 --> 00:26:07.799
keep an eye on me. And
then I get like the worst headache I've

369
00:26:07.799 --> 00:26:12.720
ever had in my entire life,
just pulsating and and it just continues to

370
00:26:12.759 --> 00:26:15.400
get worse, and it reaches a
point where it feels like somebody has taken

371
00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:19.480
a bicycle pump and stuck it inside
my head and started pumping, because it

372
00:26:19.480 --> 00:26:26.200
feels like my head is just expanding
with every pulse of my blood. And

373
00:26:26.279 --> 00:26:30.880
so I'm just incredible pain, and
so the doctors put me on a morphine

374
00:26:30.920 --> 00:26:34.599
drip and trying to get things under
control. It does settle me down some.

375
00:26:34.720 --> 00:26:40.480
But they said I kept my legs, kept moving, and it just

376
00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:44.960
felt like my legs were trying to
take me someplace else where I could get

377
00:26:44.960 --> 00:26:49.079
away from the pain or something.
And I'm continuing to ask them for more

378
00:26:49.240 --> 00:26:52.519
more drugs. They're like, you're
at you know. They told my wife

379
00:26:52.519 --> 00:26:56.920
that I was at the maximum doseats
that they could give me it safely at

380
00:26:56.960 --> 00:27:02.279
that point. But eventually I fell
asleep under probably just fatigued from the pain

381
00:27:02.440 --> 00:27:07.200
and under the under the drugs,
and my wife my parents were there.

382
00:27:07.640 --> 00:27:11.519
My dad told my wife that she
could go home and it'd be with the

383
00:27:11.599 --> 00:27:15.359
kids, and she went home,
and she cried herself to sleep then because

384
00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:18.839
she didn't know when she got back
to the hospital the next morning what kind

385
00:27:18.839 --> 00:27:21.319
of shape I was going to be
in. And then in the middle of

386
00:27:21.400 --> 00:27:27.000
the night, I woke up.
I stood up, I went into the

387
00:27:27.079 --> 00:27:30.839
bathroom in my hospital room, and
when I came back out, my father

388
00:27:30.920 --> 00:27:33.240
looks at me and he's like,
you know, that's up on the world,

389
00:27:33.319 --> 00:27:37.640
you know, And I like hit
ed and I'm talking normal and everything

390
00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:40.359
and every it just seemed like at
that moment, other than just a little

391
00:27:40.359 --> 00:27:45.319
bit of a brain fog. I
was perfectly normal. So the neurologist showed

392
00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:48.079
up the next morning. They had
run some tests. She looked at the

393
00:27:48.160 --> 00:27:52.240
results and she said, you know, the doctors thought that you had a

394
00:27:52.319 --> 00:27:57.160
stroke, but I looked at your
results and there's no brain damage. And

395
00:27:57.240 --> 00:28:00.920
even with a mini stroke, you
would present some kind of damage. And

396
00:28:02.480 --> 00:28:06.839
so then she asked me about headaches
and migraines that I had in my history.

397
00:28:06.920 --> 00:28:11.039
Turns out I was having frequent migraines
and it didn't surprise her, and

398
00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:18.039
she said that what I had was
a basically a spontaneous hymoplegic migraine. And

399
00:28:18.119 --> 00:28:22.799
so what that means is that there's
no health history and my family of this

400
00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:27.599
kind of thing, So spontaneous is
what they say, instead of being hereditary

401
00:28:27.640 --> 00:28:34.359
and then or genetic and then and
hymoplegic meaning that paralysis that happened on one

402
00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:40.160
side of my body, and so
it presented as a stroke. Basically,

403
00:28:40.240 --> 00:28:45.400
that's how severe it was. And
I really believe that all that stress that

404
00:28:45.480 --> 00:28:49.319
I was under, and then the
blame and resentment that I was holding,

405
00:28:49.359 --> 00:28:53.200
the blame that I had for the
circumstances were in. There was blame that

406
00:28:53.240 --> 00:28:56.440
I had toward my business partner at
the time, and there was self blame

407
00:28:56.519 --> 00:29:00.599
that I had on decisions that I
had made that had led us to this

408
00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:04.480
place. And all that stuff had
mounted and basically brought me to a point

409
00:29:04.519 --> 00:29:10.440
that my body had just shut down
and revolted all that. You know,

410
00:29:10.519 --> 00:29:14.720
talk about that snake pit right that
it had, that venom was building up

411
00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:17.640
inside of me, and this is
the way that it had all come out.

412
00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:21.720
And that's so powerful. And that's
why I had to have you tell

413
00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:23.599
that whole story, because I wanted
our listeners and viewers to really get present

414
00:29:23.640 --> 00:29:30.200
to just how dangerous and and this
this thing is, this blame is.

415
00:29:30.200 --> 00:29:32.759
And I want you to also know, Dustin, that I got present because

416
00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:36.559
when I when I do my research
for the books, I usually about seventeen

417
00:29:36.599 --> 00:29:41.599
to twenty typewritten pages. And I
got present and with myself where I was

418
00:29:41.640 --> 00:29:44.920
also carrying blame and with who,
And I want you to know how much

419
00:29:44.920 --> 00:29:47.720
that really helped and lifted me.
And I could actually start to trace it

420
00:29:47.759 --> 00:29:51.480
to maybe some physical stuff that I've
been dealing with. So maybe you saved

421
00:29:51.519 --> 00:29:55.319
my life, Dustin, Just maybe
I don't know, but I really wanted

422
00:29:55.359 --> 00:29:56.920
to make sure that you told that
story as you did in the detail that

423
00:29:56.960 --> 00:30:03.079
you did, because it really brings
to life just how tragic this is and

424
00:30:03.119 --> 00:30:06.839
how how we must address this stuff
in our personal lives and certainly at work,

425
00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:10.559
where we spent the majority of our
lives. Yep. And it can

426
00:30:10.599 --> 00:30:14.880
seem like it's, you know,
something that it's something that's unseen, it's

427
00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:18.400
invisible, right, but it can
manifest itself in a very physical way as

428
00:30:18.400 --> 00:30:22.240
well, and I think it happens
a lot more than we realize, manifesting

429
00:30:22.279 --> 00:30:26.759
itself, and not just in our
health, but also in the health of

430
00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:32.400
the relationships that we have and damaging
those as well. I want to give

431
00:30:32.440 --> 00:30:33.640
our listeners a little bit just to
kind of reflect on that. So let's

432
00:30:33.640 --> 00:30:37.480
go ahead and grab our last break
here and then we'll get into more of

433
00:30:37.480 --> 00:30:41.039
the actual application of this. I'm
your host, doctor Elie's Quartez. We've

434
00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:44.079
been on the air with Dustin Steger, the principal partner at the People Brand,

435
00:30:44.119 --> 00:30:47.920
where he unearths the heart and soul
of his clients business culture and branding

436
00:30:47.960 --> 00:30:51.680
to attract their best customers and employees. Is the author of blame. This

437
00:30:51.720 --> 00:30:55.960
book rescue your workplace culture from toxicity
and scapegoating. We'll be right back.

438
00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:15.680
Doctor Elise Cortez is a management consultant
specializing in meaning and purpose. An inspirational

439
00:31:15.720 --> 00:31:22.000
speaker and author. She helps companies
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop

440
00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:26.519
purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures
that elevate fulfillment, performance, and commitment

441
00:31:26.559 --> 00:31:30.119
within the workforce. To learn more
or to invite a lease to speak to

442
00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:34.839
your organization, please visit her at
Elise Cortez dot com. Let's talk about

443
00:31:34.839 --> 00:31:45.319
how to get your employees working on
purpose. This is working on Purpose with

444
00:31:45.480 --> 00:31:48.799
Doctor Elise Cortez. To reach our
program today or to open a conversation with

445
00:31:48.839 --> 00:31:55.000
a Lease, send an email to
elease a l I se at Elise Cortez

446
00:31:55.079 --> 00:32:04.480
dot com. Now back to working
on Purpose. Thanks for saying with us,

447
00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:07.279
and welcome back to working on Purpose. I mentioned in the last break

448
00:32:07.279 --> 00:32:09.519
that we're launching the Purpose Enjoy Tour. The two latest books that I have

449
00:32:09.559 --> 00:32:14.519
at that are part of the events
of your experience are The Great Revitalization.

450
00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:17.920
How activating meaning purpose can radically enliven
your business. This is for leaders to

451
00:32:17.920 --> 00:32:22.640
help them learn how to build and
elevate their high performing cultures and leadership.

452
00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:27.000
The other latest book is called Coloring
Life, How Loss invites us to live

453
00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:30.960
more vibrant lives, which helps people
who are navigating loss to transform to growth

454
00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:34.880
and vitality. If you're just now
joining us, my guest is Dustin Steaker.

455
00:32:34.920 --> 00:32:37.519
He's the author of Blame. This
book Rescue your workplace culture from toxicity

456
00:32:37.559 --> 00:32:42.279
and scapegoating. I'm your host,
doctor Les Cortez. So for this last

457
00:32:42.319 --> 00:32:45.240
segment here, Dustin, I I
just want to pull out a few pieces

458
00:32:45.240 --> 00:32:49.240
of your work that I think are
really interesting and really building what we've already

459
00:32:49.240 --> 00:32:53.039
covered on the show. So first, scapegoating. So if I read directly

460
00:32:53.079 --> 00:32:57.599
from your book, you say,
many leaders don't grasp the nuance of responsibility

461
00:32:57.720 --> 00:33:01.599
versus blame. They believe attributing to
someone will improve that person's performance in the

462
00:33:01.599 --> 00:33:07.519
future. Instead, it creates tension
as employees recognized leadership will continue to find

463
00:33:07.559 --> 00:33:12.160
a scapegoat and next time it might
be them. Yeah. So when I

464
00:33:12.359 --> 00:33:15.599
talk to folks about this, and
I talk about you know, I tell

465
00:33:15.680 --> 00:33:19.119
them that we want to eliminate blame, and it makes them a little bit

466
00:33:19.119 --> 00:33:22.119
nervous, right, because they wonder, Okay, if we eliminate blame,

467
00:33:22.200 --> 00:33:25.480
then how are we going to make
sure that people are accountable and make sure

468
00:33:25.519 --> 00:33:30.319
that people aren't irresponsible? Right?
And so I have to let them know

469
00:33:30.839 --> 00:33:34.519
that those are three different terms.
When you talk about responsibility, it's like,

470
00:33:34.519 --> 00:33:37.519
you know, I'm being responsible for
the words that are coming out of

471
00:33:37.559 --> 00:33:40.200
my mouth right now, and if
I say something wrong, I'll take ownership

472
00:33:40.200 --> 00:33:44.599
with that, right, So it's
ownership of your actions currently. And then

473
00:33:44.720 --> 00:33:47.920
accountability is that I let somebody,
like I say, my wife, if

474
00:33:47.920 --> 00:33:52.519
I say something about her or us, or you know, anything that would

475
00:33:52.519 --> 00:33:55.319
embarrass her or whatever, she has
a right to hold me accountable to that.

476
00:33:55.720 --> 00:34:00.200
And so, you know, accountability
is allowing somebody else to, you

477
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:05.519
know, to make sure that you're
being held to that standard. And then

478
00:34:06.559 --> 00:34:09.000
then what is blamed And so I
talk about it in the book that blame

479
00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:15.719
really is resentment, and it's a
resentment towards someone or something that we hold

480
00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:19.320
at fault for a misfortune. Right. And so when you view it in

481
00:34:19.320 --> 00:34:23.360
that light, you can start to
see that you resentment really doesn't have a

482
00:34:23.440 --> 00:34:30.039
purpose, and so then you can
actually have responsibility and you can have accountability

483
00:34:30.360 --> 00:34:34.920
without having to have that resentment on
top of all that, which is blame,

484
00:34:35.159 --> 00:34:37.000
and that gets in the way,
right, and it creates these toxic

485
00:34:37.079 --> 00:34:42.639
workplaces, It creates an environment or
the employees or just waiting for the other

486
00:34:42.679 --> 00:34:45.920
shoe to fall whenever something better happened. So it's like, what we had,

487
00:34:45.079 --> 00:34:50.000
a failure, had some sort of
horrible event that in itself was bad

488
00:34:50.119 --> 00:34:52.480
enough, but now we know there's
going to be blame handed out at the

489
00:34:52.599 --> 00:34:55.599
end of this, and somebody's going
to be on the chopping block. Somebody's

490
00:34:55.639 --> 00:34:59.639
going to get yelled at, chewed
out, whatever, dressed down. And

491
00:34:59.679 --> 00:35:01.840
so then you know that's the other
shoot that's going to fall, and that

492
00:35:01.880 --> 00:35:08.079
creates this low level tension within the
culture, within the environment, and so

493
00:35:08.119 --> 00:35:14.039
then within that there's all kinds of
things that bubble up during that time.

494
00:35:14.159 --> 00:35:17.039
And then typically what a leader does
is, Okay, well we've got this

495
00:35:17.119 --> 00:35:22.360
tension. People feel like something has
to happen, and they use blame to

496
00:35:22.440 --> 00:35:27.519
kind of be that relief valve during
that point instead of allowing that tension to

497
00:35:27.719 --> 00:35:30.679
stay there to some degree and say, okay, there is you know,

498
00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:36.159
there was the failure. Now Let's
take that tension and instead of just releasing

499
00:35:36.199 --> 00:35:40.159
it with blame, let's point everyone
toward what can we do to find a

500
00:35:40.239 --> 00:35:46.599
solution. Let's take that energy that's
created by that tension and actually focus on

501
00:35:46.960 --> 00:35:52.920
problem solving instead of scapegoating. Brilliant. I love how you distinguished all that

502
00:35:52.840 --> 00:35:55.239
that was. That was fantastic.
Something else that I thought was really compelling

503
00:35:55.239 --> 00:36:00.199
about what you wrote here around the
blame contagion here is I appreciate that you

504
00:36:00.280 --> 00:36:04.199
say that no one likes to be
blamed, and we often have a little

505
00:36:04.239 --> 00:36:07.480
issue with blaming others. But there's
a double standard. You say, we

506
00:36:07.519 --> 00:36:12.239
want justice for others, but mercy
for ourselves. And I thought that was

507
00:36:12.320 --> 00:36:15.159
really, really, really powerful to
understand that. So if we inadvertently hurt

508
00:36:15.239 --> 00:36:19.719
somebody, you say, we know
what we intended to do, so we

509
00:36:19.760 --> 00:36:23.039
give ourselves grace, Yet we seek
justice when another person errs because we assume

510
00:36:23.079 --> 00:36:28.960
their underlying intentions must be malicious.
That's really powerful to understand that about ourselves.

511
00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:36.400
I do recognize that, Yeah,
there's kind of a paradox of intention,

512
00:36:36.559 --> 00:36:39.840
right that we think that because when
we make a mistake, we understand

513
00:36:39.920 --> 00:36:45.000
what our good intentions were in that
moment, and so we may not harbor

514
00:36:45.320 --> 00:36:50.480
will toward ourselves in that situation,
but when somebody else farms us in some

515
00:36:50.519 --> 00:36:53.880
way, we tend not to give
them that same grace in that situation.

516
00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:59.159
And so, you know, we
assume that they have some sort of malicious

517
00:36:59.199 --> 00:37:04.880
intent instead, And that's what makes
it easier for us to blame others,

518
00:37:04.920 --> 00:37:08.880
to resent them, because we assume
they're intent instead of actually, you know,

519
00:37:09.039 --> 00:37:14.239
giving them that benefit of the doubt
or allowing them the opportunity to express

520
00:37:14.280 --> 00:37:17.159
their intent. Really powerful something there
for all of us to look into.

521
00:37:17.960 --> 00:37:22.079
Now, this is also really compelling
for me too. You talk about how

522
00:37:22.320 --> 00:37:25.199
how a blame culture can really repel
talent, and I thought this was especially

523
00:37:25.199 --> 00:37:30.280
interesting. You said before the pressure
to perform and so that people are blamed

524
00:37:30.280 --> 00:37:34.400
for not performing. So I think
it's really interesting you You cite a survey

525
00:37:34.880 --> 00:37:39.440
about performance management, and there's data
that indicates that employees who feel unfairly blamed

526
00:37:39.519 --> 00:37:44.360
or uncredited for success or more likely
to quit their job. And in fact,

527
00:37:44.480 --> 00:37:46.760
it goes even deeper, and that
three out of forum workers want to

528
00:37:46.760 --> 00:37:51.960
create an I Quit video for social
media, detailing for the entire world the

529
00:37:52.000 --> 00:37:57.039
toxic culture they endured. Yeah,
yeah, that's powerful, right. I

530
00:37:57.079 --> 00:37:59.440
mean, that's the think that somebody, you know, in that situation,

531
00:38:00.119 --> 00:38:02.239
either they didn't get credit the simple
good that they did, or they got

532
00:38:02.320 --> 00:38:07.079
unfairly credited with blame in that situation, then they feel like I need to

533
00:38:07.079 --> 00:38:10.760
shout this from the rooftops of you
know, when it's happened here and let

534
00:38:10.840 --> 00:38:16.239
everybody know I'm quitting for X,
Y Z reasons. Right, And so

535
00:38:16.320 --> 00:38:22.920
there's this um, you know,
feeling of retribution basically as created that.

536
00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:30.119
And there's a French historian named Renee
Gerard and he had a theory called memetics,

537
00:38:30.239 --> 00:38:35.400
and he also had something called escapegoat
mechanism, which is kind of the

538
00:38:35.840 --> 00:38:40.559
the solution to the conflict that memetics
creates. And basically, in these situations

539
00:38:40.559 --> 00:38:50.039
there's violence, conflict that happens,
and that one side will inflict some sort

540
00:38:50.079 --> 00:38:53.480
of violence or conflict on another side
and then it escalates, escalates, escalates,

541
00:38:53.519 --> 00:38:58.440
and then we need some sort of
relief valve, which typically is a

542
00:38:58.559 --> 00:39:01.559
scapegoat is found. That's what the
fuses the situation, but it's not a

543
00:39:01.599 --> 00:39:07.039
positive way to handle it. And
so in these situations where you know,

544
00:39:07.079 --> 00:39:12.920
people are unfairly blamed. They feel
like I have to respond with light kind

545
00:39:13.800 --> 00:39:15.840
in a like manner. Right,
I need to respond with the same kind

546
00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:21.280
of resentment or bitterness or whatever that
was shown to me because I got settled,

547
00:39:22.440 --> 00:39:24.840
or I want to surface for our
listeners and viewers from at least my

548
00:39:24.840 --> 00:39:28.119
advantage when you correct me if I
don't have this right, But what it

549
00:39:28.159 --> 00:39:34.840
really what you're illustrating to me,
Duin is just the sheer amount of energy

550
00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:39.360
that negative energy that blame can incite. And that energy has to go somewhere.

551
00:39:39.599 --> 00:39:43.719
And so when you think about just
how powerful if you can get in,

552
00:39:43.719 --> 00:39:45.840
if you can intervene in this stuff
in your organization, diminish it even

553
00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:50.239
just somewhat, what a difference that
would make if you could. I don't

554
00:39:50.239 --> 00:39:53.239
know if it's possible to eradicate it, but anyway, I really am getting

555
00:39:53.320 --> 00:39:58.320
very present and even your own experience, it really illustrates just the power of

556
00:39:58.400 --> 00:40:02.159
how strong this stuff is. Yeah, that's why Walter reading the myth of

557
00:40:02.400 --> 00:40:07.039
redemptive violence right, And it's the
fact that there is no redemptive violence when

558
00:40:07.079 --> 00:40:10.920
you really look at it. Well, now let's get a little bit more

559
00:40:10.960 --> 00:40:15.599
into culture. Here. I appreciate
very much how you distinguish this, and

560
00:40:15.679 --> 00:40:17.920
you do talk about it being a
grossly overused business buzzword today, and I

561
00:40:17.960 --> 00:40:22.639
would agree with you. But I
like what you say though about this notion

562
00:40:22.719 --> 00:40:30.559
of distinguishing that an individual behavior over
time is a habit and group behavior over

563
00:40:30.639 --> 00:40:34.960
time is culture. That is just
so simple and powerful. Yeah, it's

564
00:40:35.039 --> 00:40:37.719
It's something that I think adds a
lot of clarity to what we're talking about

565
00:40:37.840 --> 00:40:45.000
when we talk about culture because of
an ambiguous term. And so when we

566
00:40:45.039 --> 00:40:47.719
look at it and we think about
the habits that we have and how when

567
00:40:47.760 --> 00:40:52.519
we just change the actions that we
take on a regular basis, then that

568
00:40:52.599 --> 00:40:59.360
can create new habits. And there's
even the book The Power of Habit by

569
00:40:59.440 --> 00:41:04.119
Charles Do and he talks about you
can take the elements of that habit and

570
00:41:04.199 --> 00:41:08.039
just replace them with something else and
then create a take a bad habit and

571
00:41:08.119 --> 00:41:12.519
turn it into a good habit basically, and so in a similar fashion,

572
00:41:12.559 --> 00:41:17.639
if you think about organizational culture as
hey, it's a group behavior over time,

573
00:41:17.760 --> 00:41:22.840
then you can do similar things that
you address with your habits. You

574
00:41:22.840 --> 00:41:28.960
can address the elements of that group
behavior and then change the culture of your

575
00:41:29.079 --> 00:41:34.079
organization. And to that end,
I really like what you talk about about

576
00:41:34.119 --> 00:41:37.559
the bias for action helping companies to
move away from blame. Let's hear a

577
00:41:37.599 --> 00:41:43.079
bit more about that. That's just
so powerful compelling. Yeah, So whenever

578
00:41:43.159 --> 00:41:47.280
you have a bias for action,
then instead of you dwelling on blame and

579
00:41:49.159 --> 00:41:52.159
harboring that resentment, you're going to
be looking for what can we do to

580
00:41:52.159 --> 00:41:55.199
actually solve the problem. You know, you don't have time to deal with

581
00:41:55.239 --> 00:42:00.320
that emotional overhead that's created by blame. You don't have time to stu in

582
00:42:00.639 --> 00:42:05.639
resentment. You don't have time to
look for a scapegoat. You're focused on,

583
00:42:05.719 --> 00:42:08.440
Okay, what is the action that
we can take to remedy this situation?

584
00:42:08.599 --> 00:42:14.039
But what can we make sure that
this is a positive action, right,

585
00:42:14.079 --> 00:42:16.079
that this is an action that's actually
going to be a solution, that

586
00:42:16.159 --> 00:42:20.159
it's not a pseudo solution, Because
one of the things I talked about,

587
00:42:20.360 --> 00:42:23.800
I repeat it throughout the book,
is that blame is not an actual solution.

588
00:42:23.920 --> 00:42:29.000
Blame is a pseudo solution, And
what it does is it gives us

589
00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:32.440
that false conviction that we've actually solved
the problem. And then what we do

590
00:42:32.599 --> 00:42:37.880
is we may fire somebody, chastise
them or whatever, and we feel like

591
00:42:37.920 --> 00:42:40.119
we've solved it. But what we
really have done is we've kicked the can

592
00:42:40.159 --> 00:42:43.800
down the road, because, as
we talked about what Demming said about this

593
00:42:43.920 --> 00:42:49.199
typically being a process or systems issue, we're not addressing that right. Instead,

594
00:42:49.719 --> 00:42:52.360
we're finding a scapegoat and then we're
moving on. And then that issue

595
00:42:52.360 --> 00:42:57.079
with our processes, that issue that's
within our system that's likely there, we

596
00:42:57.199 --> 00:43:00.800
haven't addressed it. And so then
what happens down the road, a similar

597
00:43:00.800 --> 00:43:04.880
circumstance comes up and a similar failure
happens again. So that's why you have

598
00:43:04.920 --> 00:43:08.000
a lot of organizations where they have
some sort of failure that occurs, and

599
00:43:08.039 --> 00:43:13.639
then they find a scapegoat, and
then down the road, you know,

600
00:43:13.679 --> 00:43:16.719
that same failure happens. So they're
firing people, they have a revolving door

601
00:43:16.840 --> 00:43:21.480
of talent, and yet somehow that
organization still ends up in the same place

602
00:43:21.480 --> 00:43:25.079
they've always been. And this is
really powerful too. I like how you

603
00:43:25.440 --> 00:43:28.599
say you take it another step.
You say, when you have a bias

604
00:43:28.679 --> 00:43:31.320
for action, you're willing to try
new things, you aren't sure we'll succeed,

605
00:43:32.760 --> 00:43:37.519
fear of blame opposes that by forcing
people to look for guarantees doing the

606
00:43:37.599 --> 00:43:39.639
things that have already been done,
things that are proven to work, this

607
00:43:39.719 --> 00:43:44.519
imposes the status quo on teams and
individuals. So gosh, you think about

608
00:43:44.559 --> 00:43:46.679
you know, we wonder why things
are not why organizations are not innovating,

609
00:43:46.679 --> 00:43:51.079
there's no creativity. You know,
you've completely stamped it out here with this

610
00:43:51.119 --> 00:43:53.480
stuff. Thought that was really powerful, and you hear it in a lot

611
00:43:53.519 --> 00:43:57.320
of organizations because the phrase that they
use is that's not the way we do

612
00:43:57.400 --> 00:44:01.039
things around Yes, yes, right
right. You also talk about, of

613
00:44:01.039 --> 00:44:06.000
course, the CYA, you know, the all important cya cover your ass

614
00:44:06.119 --> 00:44:12.320
phenomenon that is well known in organizations
and well utilized. So we've been talking

615
00:44:12.320 --> 00:44:15.519
about how problematic this whole thing is. Let's get towards the end of the

616
00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:17.079
show here, we're coming close to
the end here, and let's talk about

617
00:44:17.119 --> 00:44:22.679
what a blameless future looks like.
You actually list five things that comprise a

618
00:44:22.719 --> 00:44:27.239
blameless future. Let's talk about each
one of them, starting with fewer scapegoats.

619
00:44:27.239 --> 00:44:30.440
What do we get when we get
fewer scapegoats? Yeah, so you

620
00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:34.639
know, like I talked about earlier
that whenever you use a scapegoat, then

621
00:44:34.679 --> 00:44:38.039
that's a pseudo solution, right,
And so then you're actually in a situation

622
00:44:38.239 --> 00:44:46.639
where you're doing something that's counterproductive and
you're actually not creating a culture of responsibility

623
00:44:47.079 --> 00:44:53.079
or a culture of accountability. And
so when actually you don't focus on creating

624
00:44:53.079 --> 00:44:57.920
a scapegoat, then instead you're going
to look at what can we do to

625
00:44:58.000 --> 00:45:01.679
actually make sure that people are held
accountable for the actual work that they're they're

626
00:45:02.519 --> 00:45:05.840
help to do. And if you're
going to do that, you're also going

627
00:45:05.880 --> 00:45:08.320
to be looking at what can we
do to make sure that we're clear about

628
00:45:08.360 --> 00:45:14.920
the responsibilities that people have on the
onset of projects, not turning around and

629
00:45:15.039 --> 00:45:19.440
scapegoading them at the end of the
project instead when they've blown up. Yeah,

630
00:45:19.480 --> 00:45:21.800
okay, And then the second thing
that you talk about in a blameless

631
00:45:21.840 --> 00:45:30.159
future is fewer pseudosolutions, which leads
to yeah, so whenever you avoid those

632
00:45:30.159 --> 00:45:32.559
pseudosolutions, and like we said earlier, then now you're actually able to focus

633
00:45:32.559 --> 00:45:36.800
on the problems at hand. You're
looking at what happened, You're doing an

634
00:45:36.880 --> 00:45:40.880
objective analysis analysis of the issues,
and so you know whether that's a root

635
00:45:40.920 --> 00:45:46.159
cause analysis, whether you're doing the
five wise to really drill down why did

636
00:45:46.199 --> 00:45:49.360
this happen? Why? Why that? Why that? To get down to

637
00:45:49.400 --> 00:45:52.679
that root cause, or if you're
using a tool like a blameless post mortem,

638
00:45:52.679 --> 00:45:58.239
to say, Okay, you know
what happened in this issue, and

639
00:45:58.280 --> 00:46:00.360
how can we actually look at this
objective lead and we're going to go through

640
00:46:00.400 --> 00:46:05.719
this process and look at what actually
occurred, what we expected to occur,

641
00:46:06.199 --> 00:46:09.119
what was the delta between those two
things, and why did that happen?

642
00:46:09.400 --> 00:46:13.760
And not in that in the course
of those questions, did you hear me

643
00:46:13.840 --> 00:46:16.920
say who's the blame? Right,
that's not the focus of that. It

644
00:46:16.960 --> 00:46:23.599
is able to find solutions through that
objective process. And then something the third

645
00:46:24.239 --> 00:46:28.159
piece you put forward in a blameless
future, which we've already somewhat discussed,

646
00:46:28.239 --> 00:46:31.440
or is this notion of less fear
and what does that lead to? Yeah,

647
00:46:31.480 --> 00:46:36.559
So whenever you create fear or blame, then like we talked about earlier,

648
00:46:36.599 --> 00:46:38.880
you know you're going to create a
culture that hinders creativity and innovation,

649
00:46:39.280 --> 00:46:45.800
and it reduces our tolerance for risk
because people are fearful to take that risk

650
00:46:45.880 --> 00:46:49.920
because in the end they know that
they're going to be the scapegoat in that

651
00:46:50.000 --> 00:46:52.280
situation if they're the person that that
is the one that took that risk.

652
00:46:52.719 --> 00:46:57.199
And so then people are focused on, hey, what can I do to

653
00:46:57.559 --> 00:47:00.400
you know, just do the tried
and true what things have actually worked in

654
00:47:00.440 --> 00:47:06.039
the past, And so you're always
looking backwards and has worked instead of looking

655
00:47:06.360 --> 00:47:08.920
forwards at what can we do differently? What are some tests that we can

656
00:47:08.960 --> 00:47:13.159
do. What's a hypothesis that we
can test out here? What are some

657
00:47:13.199 --> 00:47:16.440
experiments that we can try and if
they fail, it's okay, we learned

658
00:47:16.480 --> 00:47:21.280
through that process, and then we
can try a more informed experiment down the

659
00:47:21.320 --> 00:47:24.199
road. And that's what the companies
that actually are innovating and are being creative,

660
00:47:24.280 --> 00:47:30.559
and that's in a changing economy like
we constantly have, then that's something

661
00:47:30.599 --> 00:47:36.199
that is critical for the health of
our organizations. And I'll just quickly say

662
00:47:36.199 --> 00:47:37.960
the other two just because we're getting
closely in here. So the less oppression

663
00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:42.159
means of course more engagement, right, Wow, people are actually wanting they're

664
00:47:42.239 --> 00:47:45.039
leaning in to get the work done. What a concept. And then I

665
00:47:45.079 --> 00:47:49.039
love this last one, dust into
so beautiful. Fewer toxic workplaces equate to

666
00:47:49.239 --> 00:47:52.920
more Greece, Yes, And that's
the kind of world I want to live

667
00:47:52.920 --> 00:47:54.920
in and that's the kind of place
I want to work in. Yeah.

668
00:47:54.960 --> 00:48:00.400
If there's any anti toxin for our
workplaces that we need today, I think

669
00:48:00.400 --> 00:48:04.599
it's grace. Agreed. We ran
through the end of the show already,

670
00:48:04.679 --> 00:48:07.199
Dustin, The show us listened to
by people around the world. They care

671
00:48:07.239 --> 00:48:09.199
about building workplaces where people actually want
to come to work and do their best,

672
00:48:09.320 --> 00:48:13.920
being led by inspirational leaders who bring
them to their greatness and would do

673
00:48:13.920 --> 00:48:16.039
business and better as the world.
In about fifteen seconds, what would you

674
00:48:16.079 --> 00:48:19.880
like to leave them with? Yeah, so I think that, you know,

675
00:48:19.920 --> 00:48:22.599
the big thing for me is that
I talk about this and we talk

676
00:48:22.639 --> 00:48:24.840
about it in the workplace culture,
but this is life right, and so

677
00:48:25.039 --> 00:48:29.440
you know in every engagement any place
that we have relationships, I think,

678
00:48:29.719 --> 00:48:34.239
getting rid of blame and removing scapegoats, I think, and being able to

679
00:48:34.280 --> 00:48:37.000
replace that with grace, I think
that helps us create a better world in

680
00:48:37.039 --> 00:48:42.400
general. As cliche as that may
sound, I'm happy to be a soldier

681
00:48:42.400 --> 00:48:45.280
with you and that and that effort. Dustin. I'm thank you so much

682
00:48:45.320 --> 00:48:49.239
for coming on working on purpose.
It has been a delight to read your

683
00:48:49.239 --> 00:48:51.480
book, get to know you and
have you on. Thank you so much,

684
00:48:51.880 --> 00:48:54.320
thanks for having me at least listeners
Viewers who want to learn more about

685
00:48:54.360 --> 00:48:59.000
Dustin Steger and the working his team
do at The People Brand go to the

686
00:48:59.159 --> 00:49:01.519
People brand dot com. Last week, if you missed the live show,

687
00:49:01.519 --> 00:49:05.480
you can always catch it via recorded
podcast. We were on air with Lance.

688
00:49:05.760 --> 00:49:07.239
Oh, actually Lance is coming on
next week. Last week we were

689
00:49:07.280 --> 00:49:13.599
actually on with Frank Divine and we
were talking about his book Around Engagement.

690
00:49:14.079 --> 00:49:16.159
This next week we'll be on with
Lance Secreton, this time talking about his

691
00:49:16.239 --> 00:49:21.400
beautiful latest book, Reawakening the Human
Spirit. See you there, and remember

692
00:49:21.480 --> 00:49:23.280
work as an integral or important part
of our lives and can be one of

693
00:49:23.320 --> 00:49:28.039
the best adventures and means of realizing
our potential and making the impact we crave.

694
00:49:28.280 --> 00:49:34.840
So let's work on Purpose. We
hope you've enjoyed this week's program.

695
00:49:34.880 --> 00:49:38.039
Be sure to tune into Working on
Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortez,

696
00:49:38.239 --> 00:49:42.800
each week on W four C.
Why Together, We'll create a world

697
00:49:42.840 --> 00:49:47.639
where business operates conscientiously, leadership inspires
and passion performance, and employees are fulfilled

698
00:49:47.639 --> 00:49:52.199
in work that provides the meaning and
purpose they crave. See you there,

699
00:49:52.480 --> 00:49:52.880
Let's work on purpose,