Archetypes: For Unleashing Individuals, Companies and Cultures

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What's working on purpose anyway? Each
week we ponder the answer to this question.

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People ache for meaning and purpose at
work, to contribute their talents passionately

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and know their lives really matter.
They crave being part of an organization that

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inspires them and helps them grow into
realizing their highest potential. Business can be

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such a force for good in the
world, elevating humanity. In our program,

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we provide guidance and inspiration to help
usher in this world we all want

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working on purpose. Now. Here
is your host, doctor Elise Cortes.

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Welcome back to the Working and Purpose
Program. Thanks for joining it again this

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week. I'm your host, doctor
Early's Cortest join you live from Dallas,

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Texas, which is home based for
me by Internet. If you don't know

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me, I'm a management consultant specializing
in meaning and purpose. I'm an organizational

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logotherapist, inspirational speaker, social scientist, and author. You can learn more

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about me and the work that I
do at Aleascortes dot com orgustodshnow dot com.

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If you've been tuning in for a
while, you know this program is

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a thought leadership series that enlightens and
inspires listeners and viewers with insights who distinguished

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business leaders, authors, and subject
matter experts. By listening in, you're

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part of the movement to create inspirational
leaders and enlightening workplaces where we can thrive

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and do business that betters the world. Glad you're here. Now into this

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week's program with us is Cynthia Forceman, who has a passion for storytelling.

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As an archetype wal explorer, she
works with individuals to uncover and connect the

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hidden symbols, patterns, and passions
that give their lives and work meaning.

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As a founding partner at Culture Talk, she helps organizations design cultures, brands,

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and communications programs that are driven from
a place of authenticity and deep awareness.

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We'll be talking about how she developed
her twelve archetypes and the work she

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does. She choices today from Denver, Colorado. Cynthia, welcome to Working

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on Purpose. Thank you so much. It's great to be here at least.

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Thank you inside. Wonderful we find
each other because we have fantastic connections

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in the world. Thank you Ellie
TOHRV for bringing us together. I love

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the fact that I get to literally
have conversations with people from across the world

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and we have listeners who enjoy the
program from across the world. So I

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feel like I'm connected and thanks to
you as well for that, and I

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love your background as well. I
think we share some really similar parts of

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our stories. So great to be
here, absolutely, And to that end,

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the first thing I wanted to start
with is we both have this focus

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to help you and thrive in the
world. So why is that important to

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you? Why do you care so
much about that kind of work. Well,

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maybe the simplest way to put it
is, I tend to think that

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our state of being is contagious.
I love that. I completely agree.

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Yeah, it's not one hundred percent
line. One of my mentors, Tammy

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Simon, recently said that just so
resonated with it, because you know,

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how I show up in any given
moment in my life and my job role

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as a parent, as a partner
in a relationship, I'm affecting everybody else.

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You know. My ability to show
up fully, wholly, authentically,

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in alignment with myself and my own
purpose affects everything around me. I mean,

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we're just energetic that way, completely
agree fully aligned. And another thing

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about us that makes us really interesting, of course, is we bring our

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whole package. What we've come through, how we've were raised, and our

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genetic qualities etcter to the world.
And one of the things I find so

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interesting about you and your work with
archetypes and your culture focus on individual companies

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is that you talk about having grown
up in a family with ten children,

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which, as you refer to as
it was a small organization, right,

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So help us understand how that experience
of growing up has contributed to and inform

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the work you do today in archetypes
and culture. Yeah, yeah, I

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mean I did. I mean,
how many small companies do we know or

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family owned businesses that are you know, less than ten people. So I

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literally my first organizational experience was being
an aggressta and on third of ten.

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So I'm at the top of the
brood. And I guess, you know,

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at least some of the things I
learned early on in my life was

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group, you know, was being
part of a system, was being part

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of something that was bigger than just
me. And you know, we had

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rituals, we had traditions, we
had rules, we had hierarchy, we

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had you know, God help you
if you were late when it was time

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for dinner, no one could eat
right. So we had you know,

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that kind of reinforcement from each other. But probably the most important aspect of

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what we learned was teamwork. Right
if we were going to Grandpa's or we

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were going to the beach, or
we we are going to church on Sunday

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morning, a lot of things had
to happen, and it takes a big

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coordinated effort. And we I mean
in our family, so we I know,

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we're going to talk a little bit
about twelve archetypes with my parents.

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There are twelve of us, and
so you know, there is a lot

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of different perspectives if you will,
even amongst my siblings and my family members

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that you know, you learn to
work with people, You learn to collaborate

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to allow for differences and opinion and
need and all that kind of thing.

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Yeah, and I had wondered if
you could find representation of all of your

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twelve archetypes in your family. I
was wondering about that. But I want

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to help our listeners understand first just
even how you got into the work,

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Right, you studied archetypes, and
I know that you you had someone a

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mentor or somebody that you were working
with here. But what's interesting for my

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vantage point, I don't know a
lot about archetypes, but from what I

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don't from what I think I know
of them, and you tell me if

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I'm way off. I see them
as both an identity orientation and a way

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of moving through the world and being
connected to it. I love that definition.

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I think you've got a very clear
way of thinking about archetypes. But

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I'll give you a couple of other
ways. So I have background in psychology

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and positive psycho masters and positive psychology
writing for both of us has got to

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come from right. I have it
too, That's right, how do we

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thrive? But Carl Jung, who
was a Swiss psychotherapist in the mid nineteen

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hundreds, was really the person who
coined that term archetype. And he was

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also somebody that was into studying symbols
and patterns and things that had shown up

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in history and religion and gods and
goddesses. And what he started to notice

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is that there's certain patterns that seem
not specific to you, Elise or me,

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but they seem to be patterns that
repeat themselves over time, kind of

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storylines that provide structure as a way
of understanding who we are. And so

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he was the first person that really
talked about archetypes, and he had lots

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and lots and lots of archetypes.
There's a lot of you know, there's

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a number of thinkers, educators,
philosophers who have some kind of archetypal system

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and they may have different numbers of
archetypes. But he had many, many

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archetypes, and he he looked at
you know, his thought was the key

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to consciousness was really to look within
at your own patterns, your own stories,

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and to you know, if you
have a friend who says it became

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you know, if you don't manage
your archetypes, your archetypes are going to

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manage you. So how do we
become how do we use archetypes as a

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way of becoming aware of the patterning
that we're stepping into. So I know

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that you have twelve archetypes, and
thank you again for allowing me to take

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the assessment. We'll talk a little
bit later about a little but first before

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we talk about the actual architects themselves, would you say a little bit about

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how you derived them? Oh?
Yes, So the twelve we use that

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culture talk. We use a group
of twelve archetypes, and that framework actually

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comes from another Youngian researcher by the
name of Carol Pearson and Carol I would

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credit Carol with bringing archetypes into the
modern workplace. She really focused on,

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you know, young said, archetypes
show up in individuals as personality, but

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they also show up in groups as
culture. And so Carol is an organizational

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development thinker who was really curious about
how these same patterns show up in groups

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and in organizations and an organizational culture. And so she identified twelve work of

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twelve and that is the framework that
we have built the work upon. I

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had a chance to study with Carol
early on into my career and it was

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definitely one of those game changer moments
to learn about her work. Oh,

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I totally get it right. I
am such a sucker for learning. I

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wish you could see my bookshelf over
here. I just love it. If

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I've always thought if I ever had
to pack up a move again, what

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would I do with all my books? Yeah? With me. Well,

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let's have a little fun here and
help our listeners and viewers understand a little

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something about these twelve archtypes. Can
you talk about each one of them just

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briefly? Sure? So, in
the system of twelve that we use.

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There is the innocent, and very
simply, the innocent might be considered kind

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of the optimist, you know,
the person who sees the glass half full.

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There's also the every person who is
that kind of personality that's about fairness,

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about justice, about leveling the playing
field, kind of has a mind

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for you know, how do we
connect as a group. Then we have

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the hero and the caregiver. The
hero, I know, being one of

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yours that we're going to talk about, but definitely that courageous, brave,

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inspiring type of personality that just gets
things done, whereas the caregiver might be

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a gentler archetype that's more about seeing
people, seeing needs, seeing who needs

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what, and serving to create stability
and nurturing people. So those are the

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next two. And then we have
the explorer and the lover. You might

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think about the explorers kind of that
curiosity driven individual, that early adopter,

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that person that's just like always out
there looking at what's just beyond the edge,

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if you will, whereas the lover
is like, instead of being out

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there is like the draw them in
kind of energy. It's the connecting,

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it's the one on one connection,
it's relationships. Then the next two patterns

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are Creator and revolutionary, And I'll
actually talk about revolutionary first because revolutionary is

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like the pattern that you know,
kind of rubs against the grain, questions

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the status quo, notices like what's
not working and says why are we doing

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that? And the creator is a
pattern that can come in and make new

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things, innovate, make things very
tangible. So they're kind of an interesting

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pairing because one's kind of doing a
way and one's making new things. And

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then I got four more. So
the next two are the Magician and the

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Ruler. The Ruler being a pattern
that is about responsibility, stepping up and

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leading, taking control, seeing what
needs to be done, kind of coming

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in in a confident, commanding way
that helps create stability. There is the

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Magician is an energy that is about
transformation and change. Right, so what's

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our bigger vision? Where are we're
going? What is somebody's potential? And

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can we make some old intuitive leaps
into a new reality if you will.

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And then the final pairing is Sage
and Jester. Sage is a story that

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is about wisdom. It's about knowledge. It's about learning all the facts and

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the proofs and having the ideas and
being very sound in judgment and thoughtful and

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critical thinking. And the jester will
follow up with the twelfth, which is

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a gester, which is like a
pattern of fun and a pattern of lightheartedness,

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and a pattern of let's enjoy each
and every moment and let's not take

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everything so seriously. So, listeners
and viewers, I hope that as she

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was sharing those things that you might
start to recognize something in yourself. We're

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going to talk more about each of
ours after the break here. But the

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other thing I want to point out
is that if I have this right that

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you seem to oftentimes, I think
in your report, actually you give us

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our top three. Yes, right, Yeah, it's important to talk about

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that we're not It's not just that
we have So how would you say that

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we were not just expressing one archetype
or how would you say that? Yeah,

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so I would say, you know, there are some personality assessments that

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kind of box people in and say, oh, you're those your dad and

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archetypal assessment is more about how do
we create how do we let somebody's story

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emerge? And none of us is
all of the archetype, none of hello,

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who is Charlie Brown? I think
Charlie Brown. Hello Charlie. None

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of us is all of one and
none of the other. We actually have

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the capacity each of us to tap
into those storylines, but we kind of

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have a two or three or four
that are our go tos, that are

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our natural tendencies that we respond unconsciously, if you will, in a certain

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three or four patterns. So,
yeah, you have access, And I

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think your report actually shows you your
scores across all twelve. It does.

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Yeah, So then if I have
this right, this is also important for

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our listeners and viewers to understand that
are you suggesting Are you saying that we

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can grow into and access all of
the archetypes at some point I would say

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maybe not all right, I wouldst
yeah, No, I think it's an

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individual journey. I think that what
we find is that there's certain patterns and

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stories that are just part of who
we are. Right, I can't help

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I can't help showing up with that. But then as we become conscious,

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and this was Young's point, as
we become conscious of our stories and our

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patterns, we can shift, we
can develop under develop traits, we can

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be more intentional about what we're trying
to create in our life. Experiences,

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So it's sort of a yes,
Sam, we are certain patterns are natural,

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but we have capacity to develop patterns
and sometimes in response to life,

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you know, certain patterns may show
up for us beautiful. We do have

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a couple of interactions with our online
chat folks. We'll get those after the

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break that. Let us take our
first break. I'm Doctor Release Cortez,

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your host. We've been on the
air with Cynthia Forsman. She's the co

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founder of culture Talk. We've been
talking a bit about how she got into

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the work that she's doing, why
so compelling to her, and how she

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derived the twelve archetypes she works with
in organizations. After the break, we're

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going to get into the nitty gritty
of it and hear her talk about my

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results as well as what she does
with customers and clients. Stay with us,

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we'll be right back. Doctor Release
Cortez is a management consultant specializing in

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meaning and purpose and inspirational speaker and
author. She helps companies visioneer for greater

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purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose and
inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate

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fulfillment, performance, and commitment within
the workforce. To learn more or to

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invite Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her at Eleasecortes dot com.

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Let's talk about how to get your
employees working on purpose. This is

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working on Purpose with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or open

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a conversation with Alise, send an
email to Aleise Alise at Elisecortes dot com.

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Now back to working on Purpose.
Thanks for staying with us, and

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welcome back to working on Purpose.
I have to say I forgot too much

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as in my opening, but my
book is out. Purpose Ignited is out.

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I actually had have to say that
it's my pandemic baby, That's what

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I was doing during the pandemic.
So it's out. It's called purpose Ignited.

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How inspiring leaders ignite passion and elevate
Cause I really wrote it to turn

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on on readers to their own passion, inspiration and purpose. So that's why

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I wrote it. It's out there
for you. Back to the program if

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you're just joining us. Cynthia Forceman
is my guest. She's the co founder

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of Culture Talk. She told us
today from Denver, Colorado. Okay,

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so we had a couple of questions
coming before we get into the next piece

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of things here. The first question
is is there a book out about these

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archetypes and how can I get my
own? We actually have an assessment tool

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at culturetalk dot com where you can
take an archetypal assessment, much like we

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did at least took her assessment.
So that's one resource. Carol Pearson,

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who I mentioned earlier, has several
books out that explore all different aspects to

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learning your storylines and working with them. So listeners, thank you for your

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engagement and your questions. Appreciate the
interactions. Great. Okay, So what

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we also wanted to do in this
segment here Cynthia's talk about each of our

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results and kind of how they show
up and what they mean. So let's

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start. Let's start with you if
we can. So you said that your

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highest archetype is creator than caregiver,
than lover, and those are your core

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three. So first I want to
understand how does knowing your archetype serve you

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in your life? Yeah, so
there's a lot of different ways that we

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can apply archetypal thinking, and you
know, I mentioned you know, by

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tapping in and seeing your own storylines, you can start to become more purpose

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driven. More intentional about what you're
creating. That's just one way we could

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look at archetype. Archetype as a
framework has built into it several ways of

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being applied that help us develop as
individuals as leaders. So, for example,

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each of the storylines that I described
briefly has elements to it that we

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call strengths, but it also has
a shadow, right, and they come

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as part of the same package.
So as we start to get in touch

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with our own storylines, what happens
is we start to become aware of some

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of the stuff we drag into interactions
with us. And so the ability to

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see our shadow, to get to
know our shadow, the ability to tap

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in. Because every one of those
storylines is a motivational pattern, they're all

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motivated by something different, and I
think motivation is a great why question,

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it's a great purpose question. So
there's a whole opportunity. I mean,

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we develop personal brands, we develop
personal purpose statements. I can share mine

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in a minute, But we also
look at how can this person evolve and

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grow, how can they step out
of shadow, how can they manage themselves

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in the moment or over their course
of their lifetime to become more of a

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more highly evolved version of a pattern. You know, we also get interactions

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with our type. So whatever your
core work types are, in my org

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type part they kind of define our
lens, right, both what we see

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but also what we don't see,
because we're coming at it from this you

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know, perspective and this motivation.
So there's a lot of there's a lot

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of juice in story telling that helps
us connect, that helps us understand and

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align ourselves, that helps us shift
our behaviors, all of those things.

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Mm hm. Well, and part
of the work. The reason I like

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doing this kind of this kind of
work, and I'm going to ask you

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to talk to me about my results
as well, is because this whole notion

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of right self understanding and awareness is
forever right of learning about who we really

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are and what makes us tickets up
for everything, Which is why for me

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in my book, I have a
whole section or a whole chapter just on

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identity alone, because it's so important
to understand who we are and who we're

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being in the world. And some
of the interactions we're seeing in the chat

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here is how can we see what
we don't see? A lot of this

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is, you know, a lot
of this is like ongoing work to work

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through, like an assessment and the
consulting that you do to help us be

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able to see what we can't see
on our own, because it's just so

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so much of the water that we
swim in that we can't distinguish it totally.

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Right, So what is your purpose
statement? I want to make one

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more comment, then I'm going to
tell you what mine is. You know

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another Yeah, another newer way that
we are applying our types is actually in

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the conversation around diversity and inclusion in
terms of how do we deepen those conversations.

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And I make that comment because when
you ask how can we see someone

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else's perspective? What archetypes do is
they help us, you know, make

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our subjective view of the world more
objective. Right, I know, Oh,

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I'm looking through the creator lens.
Then I have this appreciation that at

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least has a different lens, right, at least has a different motivation,

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And I can start to you know, appreciate and if I don't have those

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patterns, I can start to appreciate
somebody else's lens. So so my three

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right, so Creator is kind of
meaning maker. Let's just call it shorthand

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like a creator is a meaning maker, so it's no wonder that I love

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storytelling so much. The lover is
a connector, like a relationship builder,

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like a relationship with self and each
other. And the caregiver is like this

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nurture, this grower, this like
mentor of whom you can you know perhaps

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so if you take those three together, for me, I have created a

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purpose statement that I say, my
purpose is to create wonder, standing,

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to create understanding. And what I
mean by that the creator energy obviously in

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the word create, but I love
the word understanding because a I made it

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up, and that's what creators do, they make up. But also you

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know, there's a I feel like
wonder as a word gets at the energy

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of this, like deeper connection we
can have with our solves, with each

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other, right, that deeper level
of connection and understanding that we can create

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with archetypes and storytelling. So that's
what I'm here to do. Well,

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I love the work you're doing,
and I'm so happy we cross paths.

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It was supposed to happen, so
this was one one day or the other,

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that's how it was going to be. So exactly, so while I

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have you, you're the professional here, I did want to talk about my

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results. The first one came back
as hero and then ruler in the innocent

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I didn't quite understand the hero first
very well until I went to your website.

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But talk to me a little bit, if you would, about how

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you would help me understand my results
and maybe what thinking for me totally.

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So first of all, I just
want to make a comment on hero and

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that is one of the hallmarks of
hero is they don't think of themselves as

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heroes. That's kind of like a
hallmark, right, So it is one

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of the patterns that sometimes takes people
a little bit. We're digging to see

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how that pattern is expressing itself.
But you know, the first thing we

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do is we offer an assessment that
you took a lease, and I would

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say a first thing that you should
do as an individual is kind of give

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it a gut read through the pattern, like what resonates? What does it

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resonate? Because you have more capacity
than here, and you may not resonate

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with every aspect of that pattern.
So we go through a whole process.

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We have a community of coaches and
consultants that are certified to use our assessment

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tools in their programs, and what
we train them on is how to walk

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people through a validation experience. So
you take your survey, you get your

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results, but you know what,
it's a seventy two question questionnaire. It's

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a validated it's a validated instrument.
So I know it's measuring patterns. But

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what's more important to me is that
you Elise have a felt experience and internalization

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that goes, oh, I see
that. I see how that pattern shows

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up in my personal life and my
work life, and my family life,

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in my career choices, because it
can become like a red thread that goes,

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how did I get here? You
know? And what was so hero?

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You know? As a pattern is
this very inspirational pattern. It's a

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pattern that makes other people go,
oh, I can be bigger, braver,

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and stronger because the hero gives me
that sense of courage and determination.

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So that I can totally relate to
that is definitely my damn is what I

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do for sure? Yeah? Yeah, And you know, so you may

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not resonate with everything. So I
would suggest, like how I would work

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with you is we would go through
your top three or maybe four scoring patterns

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and we'd put put the questions to
you, like, do you resonate what

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are how do you see those that
pattern show up in a really strong way

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for you in a positive way.
Do you resonate at all with any of

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the shadow aspects of that? You
know? You know, do people say

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those things about you? If you
will? And do you have specific stories

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that illustrate the point? Right?
So if we dug into each of your

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patterns, give me an example of
when you showed up in a high hero

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positive way and what you were able
to do for somebody. Because hero energy

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is motivated by challenge, right,
Like, every time there's an obstacle that

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energy does not even see it.
It's like, boom, I'm going to

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cross right over that, and I'm
gonna you know, I'm going to run

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into the fire and I'm going to
take really principled action because that's the kind

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of energy that hero brings. Yeah, so your part here, you might

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have some hero and you might have
some of these other patterns too, And

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I did. I noticed the ruler's
in there and I got that. So

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but thank you that that helps me
just better understand a little bit. It

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distinguishes my own selves, if you
will, for myself and listeners and viewers

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who were asking those questions about how
do we see ours? That's part of

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it is holding up a mirror and
having somebody else help us see what maybe

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we can't see for ourselves. It's
a beautiful thing to do and to that.

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And let's take the conversation next into
what you do with leadership and in

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company culture. So I first want
to understand how this particular work helps leaders

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understand themselves and lead better by knowing
their archetype. So everyone or most people

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are familiar with the term emotional intelligence, right, So Daniel Goleman's work and

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it was really really revolutionary twenty five
years ago when he introduced he's celebrating his

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twenty fifth anniversary. But this idea
that leadership was about more than mental capacity

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and more than results. That in
fact, the higher up the food chain

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you went in an organization, the
less work product you were producing, and

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the more the focus was on how
do you manage, inspire and lead people,

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How do you motivate them, how
do you get them engaged? You

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know, all of these kinds of
things, which takes different skill set.

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So I would say with archetypes,
there's an aspect to it that is about

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reading emotional intelligence, but we sometimes
talk about it as narrative intelligence. Right,

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So as a leader, if I
start to look at my own stories,

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if I start to define my own
archetypal profile, I can I can

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say, oh wow, when I'm
showing up in these patterns and these strengths,

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that's when I'm at my best.
I need to develop more of that

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in myself. Or I can start
to experience what's that shadow content that gets

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in the way, Right if you
have high ruler like yours, like person

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who's very responsible, steps up and
takes charge, but also in a shadow

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place might come across as like a
little bossy, right, So it's both

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both sides of the coin you've got, you know, So there's like this

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narrative intelligence in your own life.
How am I going to manage myself as

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a leader or how am I going
to grow evolve and develop into the kind

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of leader I want to be?
But then you know, what about all

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the people on your team? And
what if you understood they were all motivated

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by something different, They all had
their own story and their own storylines.

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Now you can start to see how
do I manage an individual? How do

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I engage them? How do I
turn up their motivation? How do I

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create a performance management plan or career
strategy that helps them grow evolve, Because

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it's all through this, you know, the framework of stories. Our brains

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are actually wired for stories, and
neuroscience points that out now right like when

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the human brain, even if we
get a list of facts we translated into

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a story, and when we see
the neural connections that light up when we

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hear a story, just how we
is, how we're wired. So now

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you know you can manage the team. You could make hiring decisions by we

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don't use archetypes to filter out or
discriminate. It can help us to understand

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the deeper drivers of someone we're interviewing. It can help us ask different questions

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and so there's a lot of potential. I think I mentioned the diversity as

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another example. Who on the team
brings what to the party? So to

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speak? And do we have all
of the perspectives and how do we resolve

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conflict between different archetypes? And how
do we assign work based on what things

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you know are well aligned to you, you know in terms of your motivations

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and strengths, which I find terribly
exciting as a Galt Certified Strengths Coach and

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just being able to see the uniqueness
in every human being. A never tire

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of that. It did occur to
me to ask you, because then the

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00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:45.759
next seg that I want to talk
about the work that you do inside organizations

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and with leaders and cultures. But
it did occur to me to ask you

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if a leader's architect archetype is better
when it aligns with that of the organization.

399
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If they're more effective, if they're
stronger if it aligns with that.

400
00:30:56.440 --> 00:31:00.720
No, Okay, Now it's kind
of a common miss perception, like if

401
00:31:00.759 --> 00:31:04.799
an organization, if we measure the
organizational culture and we find out it's a

402
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high hero culture, should we have
all heroes? And quite frankly, that's

403
00:31:10.680 --> 00:31:15.319
terrifying, right the thought of I
would tell you on the heels of a

404
00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:19.440
diversity conversation, right, yeah,
right, So it is less about I

405
00:31:19.559 --> 00:31:26.119
need to align with the archetype of
the organization and more about if I understand

406
00:31:26.440 --> 00:31:32.960
that this organization's purpose is some combination
of archetypes too. Let's just say that

407
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they have an explore lover creator is
their profile. My job now is to

408
00:31:40.920 --> 00:31:47.039
figure out how do I show up
as my best aligned self in service to

409
00:31:47.519 --> 00:31:52.039
this group thing that we're doing.
So what does the group count on me

410
00:31:52.839 --> 00:31:56.799
to bring to the party in order
that all of us together can create this

411
00:31:56.920 --> 00:32:00.480
other experience that we're trying to deliver. How exciting. I love it.

412
00:32:00.519 --> 00:32:04.759
I love what you do. It's
so great. Let's grab our next break.

413
00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:07.480
Emalise Cortez her host Bruniro Cynthia Forsman. She's the co founder of Culture

414
00:32:07.559 --> 00:32:12.279
Talk. We've been talking a bit
about how archetypes are used inside organizations.

415
00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:15.039
After the great we're going to get
more in detail about how she actually does

416
00:32:15.119 --> 00:32:17.200
this work with regard to culture and
leadership. Stay with us, we'll be

417
00:32:17.319 --> 00:32:22.799
right back. Doctor Elise Cortes is
a management consultant specializing in meaning and purpose

418
00:32:23.240 --> 00:32:30.119
and inspirational speaker and author. She
helps companies visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders

419
00:32:30.400 --> 00:32:37.079
and develop purpose inspired leadership and meaning
infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance,

420
00:32:37.279 --> 00:32:42.119
and commitment within the workforce. To
learn more or to invite Elise to speak

421
00:32:42.119 --> 00:32:46.079
to your organization, please visit her
at Elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about

422
00:32:46.079 --> 00:32:58.240
how to get your employees working on
purpose. This is working on purpose with

423
00:32:58.319 --> 00:33:02.200
doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our
program today or open a conversation with Alise,

424
00:33:02.599 --> 00:33:09.920
send an email to Alise Alise at
Elisecortes dot com. Now back to

425
00:33:10.039 --> 00:33:20.720
working on Purpose. Thanksteresting with us, and welcome back to working on purpose.

426
00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:22.519
Another thing that I wanted to share
with you that we cooked up during

427
00:33:22.519 --> 00:33:27.799
the pandemic is this little thing called
Gusto now and it's an e learning platform

428
00:33:27.920 --> 00:33:30.319
for leadership and the professional development courses, and so we've offered We've got a

429
00:33:30.319 --> 00:33:34.640
suite of courses now in English,
Spanish and Portuguese, which are my languages

430
00:33:34.640 --> 00:33:37.000
and I love them. Now back
to our program we have with us today,

431
00:33:37.079 --> 00:33:40.079
Cynthia Forsman. She's the co founder
of Culture Talk. She's joining us

432
00:33:40.119 --> 00:33:44.960
today from Denver, Colorado. I'm
your host, doctor Elis Cortes. So

433
00:33:45.160 --> 00:33:47.079
in this last segment here, since
I really wanted to really roll up our

434
00:33:47.119 --> 00:33:52.079
sleeves and hear you talk about the
work that you do inside organizations to bring

435
00:33:52.079 --> 00:33:55.160
it home for our listeners and viewers. So if you can start just maybe

436
00:33:55.200 --> 00:33:59.519
generically of just sharing how do you
work with companies to help them understand their

437
00:33:59.599 --> 00:34:05.960
archetype as an organization yeah, so
the cultural archetype. So we have two

438
00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:12.360
assessment tools that we have built.
One is designed to measure individual personality through

439
00:34:12.400 --> 00:34:15.000
the lens of twelve archtypes. So
who am I, how do I perceive

440
00:34:15.079 --> 00:34:21.760
myself the world, what motivates me, et cetera. The second tool actually

441
00:34:21.800 --> 00:34:27.039
measures the shared experience, or what
we like to call the unwritten rules of

442
00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:30.480
engagement. I think I heard you
at least describe it as like the water

443
00:34:30.599 --> 00:34:34.159
we're swimming in. So you know, how do we you know, because

444
00:34:34.159 --> 00:34:37.280
everyone's talking about culture, but it
is this very intangible thing, right,

445
00:34:37.360 --> 00:34:44.800
and culture talk and arc types was
designed to again help us see the subjective

446
00:34:44.920 --> 00:34:49.239
lens and to make it a tangible
thing. So, you know, there's

447
00:34:49.280 --> 00:34:53.360
lots of different things. Culture is
a big topic. And you know,

448
00:34:53.440 --> 00:34:58.119
you don't always get a call from
an organization saying, God, I have

449
00:34:58.159 --> 00:35:01.840
a culture problem. You get calls
that say, I have a leadership problem,

450
00:35:01.960 --> 00:35:07.039
I have a branding problem, I
have a reputational crisis. No one's

451
00:35:07.119 --> 00:35:13.679
engaged. Our turnover is high.
Like culture problems show up in like various

452
00:35:13.760 --> 00:35:19.679
symptomatic ways. Right, But the
thing that connects all of that is like

453
00:35:19.840 --> 00:35:23.039
the share group experience, not you
know, we try to write down like

454
00:35:23.480 --> 00:35:29.079
here's our guiding principles, here's our
mission vision values. But there's an aspect

455
00:35:29.079 --> 00:35:35.039
to organizational behavior that's like what we
actually tolerate, not just what we say,

456
00:35:35.079 --> 00:35:37.599
but what we actually do. And
that's what culture talk is designed to

457
00:35:37.719 --> 00:35:43.440
measure. So, just like in
working with an individual, the first step

458
00:35:43.559 --> 00:35:47.800
is actually measuring the culture using that
assessment. And you can have everybody in

459
00:35:47.840 --> 00:35:52.199
a company take the assessment. You
can even add demographic questions that allow you

460
00:35:52.239 --> 00:35:58.880
to look at different departments, tenure, anything like that, and they get

461
00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:05.079
a result across archtypes. But you
have to walk through a validation experience.

462
00:36:05.559 --> 00:36:12.880
So for our consultants and trainers and
coaches that are using the system, they

463
00:36:12.920 --> 00:36:16.840
would you know, run focus groups, run stakeholder interviews, they would go

464
00:36:16.920 --> 00:36:22.760
about getting more proof points, like
for why are these patterns showing up in

465
00:36:22.800 --> 00:36:28.079
the story, And we're going to
take the organization, the leadership team,

466
00:36:28.119 --> 00:36:32.000
whatever team is involved in the conversation
through the patterns that they're showing up and

467
00:36:32.039 --> 00:36:35.239
what does this look like, what
does it sound like? What are your

468
00:36:35.320 --> 00:36:38.559
stories? How is this part of
your strength? Is it showing up a

469
00:36:38.719 --> 00:36:44.880
shadow? So similarly, getting them
to validate, because that's where the magic

470
00:36:45.079 --> 00:36:47.719
is. The magic is not in
the assessment. You know, it's part

471
00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:53.599
art and part science. The science
piece is it's a validated instrument, but

472
00:36:53.719 --> 00:36:59.840
the art piece of it is kind
of like getting a group to buy in

473
00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:02.880
to the shared idea of who they
are. And so then instead of culture

474
00:37:02.920 --> 00:37:07.599
being this very intangible like we have
a great culture, we have a toxic

475
00:37:07.639 --> 00:37:10.079
culture, we have a learning culture, like all these very generic words,

476
00:37:10.239 --> 00:37:16.039
now they can say we have a
revolutionary, you know, innocent culture,

477
00:37:16.079 --> 00:37:20.559
and here's how it shows up.
They have a language they can use.

478
00:37:21.639 --> 00:37:24.440
Totally understand that from the work that
I do too with culture. But now

479
00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:28.280
next though, if you will help
us understand how do companies how do you

480
00:37:28.280 --> 00:37:34.880
help companies steward their culture and their
communication with an understanding of their archetype.

481
00:37:35.159 --> 00:37:38.079
Yeah, so, I mean again, stories are just rich, right,

482
00:37:38.159 --> 00:37:42.679
They're packed with so much, right, you know, I mean we're wired

483
00:37:42.719 --> 00:37:45.440
for story, and some of what
we get in the story is motivation,

484
00:37:45.880 --> 00:37:52.239
strengths values out of story, and
so in a lot of ways, stories,

485
00:37:52.400 --> 00:37:57.079
our stories can become a blueprint.
Right, So, if you're working

486
00:37:57.119 --> 00:38:00.519
with someone on developing a purpose statement
of mission, vision, values, statement,

487
00:38:00.719 --> 00:38:06.440
a culture code, an employee engagement, a brand, whatever it is.

488
00:38:06.920 --> 00:38:09.239
When they start to have their own
language for talking about it, you

489
00:38:09.280 --> 00:38:13.719
can use that and apply it.
Got You can take the assessment once,

490
00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:17.360
but you can apply it out over
and over again to all sorts of new

491
00:38:17.360 --> 00:38:22.679
things, because culture connects it all. It's the glue. Yeah. Well,

492
00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:24.760
and certainly one of the things that
I saw somewhere on your website which

493
00:38:24.760 --> 00:38:30.159
makes the most complete sense too,
is even just understanding your architect can help

494
00:38:30.199 --> 00:38:32.559
you improve your recruiting. And of
course I started my human capital career twenty

495
00:38:32.559 --> 00:38:37.199
some years ago in recruiting, and
I certainly understand how if we can presence

496
00:38:37.199 --> 00:38:42.039
and talk about ourselves and describe ourselves
through our archetype. Of course, and

497
00:38:42.039 --> 00:38:44.360
people could say, yep, that's
me. I like that, I really

498
00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:46.320
or Nope, I don't like that
at all. Right, so it really

499
00:38:46.320 --> 00:38:50.519
helps us, I think, select
more appropriate people. But can you say

500
00:38:50.519 --> 00:38:54.320
a bit more about how using archetype
can help with recruitment efforts? Yeah,

501
00:38:54.840 --> 00:39:00.440
so, you know, employee branding
and talent branding. I feel like it's

502
00:39:00.440 --> 00:39:04.760
still newer. It's newer in my
career, right, we weren't talking about

503
00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:08.280
that a number of years ago.
But because we are where we are in

504
00:39:08.400 --> 00:39:15.079
terms of information technology and in you
know, people making choices of millennial generation

505
00:39:15.199 --> 00:39:17.639
that came along and said, hey, you know what it's about more than

506
00:39:17.679 --> 00:39:22.920
a paycheck, I want to I
want to be involved in something meaningful,

507
00:39:22.480 --> 00:39:28.480
and they're looking for that. It
really pays for an organization to become intentional

508
00:39:29.039 --> 00:39:32.519
about how they're languaging, how they're
putting themselves out there, what kind of

509
00:39:32.559 --> 00:39:38.760
stories they're telling about their organization to
attract people. And you can't fake it

510
00:39:39.480 --> 00:39:44.760
right because a moment you say you
are something and I come in and I

511
00:39:44.840 --> 00:39:49.159
go, you are not that I
have the opposite experience that's going to create

512
00:39:49.320 --> 00:39:53.559
you know, a crisis. Whereas
if you work from first understanding what is

513
00:39:53.599 --> 00:39:57.880
it in our culture? You know, like what's the what's the secret sauce?

514
00:39:58.239 --> 00:40:00.800
Because how we show up in those
say it's three or four patterns that

515
00:40:00.840 --> 00:40:07.159
we choose to use to build a
brand or an employment brand around like there's

516
00:40:07.239 --> 00:40:12.159
only one you, there's only one
you organization with this unique vision, this

517
00:40:12.320 --> 00:40:15.840
unique group of people that came together
to deliver them. And if we can

518
00:40:15.920 --> 00:40:21.039
let the brand or the talent brand
or the be like actually emerge out of

519
00:40:21.079 --> 00:40:23.000
our culture. Like some of the
feedback you you're from clients' is like,

520
00:40:23.039 --> 00:40:27.639
oh, it's exactly what I always
wanted to say about myself, our company,

521
00:40:27.679 --> 00:40:30.880
our organization, but I didn't have
the words. Ye, So Archetypes

522
00:40:30.920 --> 00:40:35.400
gives us that, like very tangible
like words. And then when we're out

523
00:40:35.400 --> 00:40:39.639
telling stories that are true, that
are authentic to who we are, you

524
00:40:39.639 --> 00:40:44.559
know, that's where those things start
to align and resonate. We live in

525
00:40:44.559 --> 00:40:50.440
a glass box, so you know, our culture is our brand. I

526
00:40:50.800 --> 00:40:53.320
wanted to come in to what you
said there earlier about the words whatever it

527
00:40:53.360 --> 00:40:57.119
was, but not being spoken.
But I when I do work like this

528
00:40:57.239 --> 00:41:00.639
too, what I've come to say
is that really what I'm doing is I'm

529
00:41:00.679 --> 00:41:04.559
capturing the words are hanging in the
air but not necessarily spoken, right,

530
00:41:04.960 --> 00:41:07.440
and it's so right. So to
you know this, it's so powerful people

531
00:41:07.440 --> 00:41:09.079
think, go, yeah, that's
right, that's us, So that's me.

532
00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:13.639
It's it's incredible to get to do
that work. I love to watch

533
00:41:13.679 --> 00:41:17.840
people's molecules change when they get that
awareness. It's just awesome. Yeah it

534
00:41:19.000 --> 00:41:22.559
is. There's something magical about it, and there is also it's for us,

535
00:41:22.599 --> 00:41:25.760
for you and for I the work
that's getting done. It's like it's

536
00:41:25.760 --> 00:41:30.679
not even it's not like our creativity. It's like them. We're just helping

537
00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:37.920
them uncover and look at what exists
already in there, and it can really

538
00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:42.039
light teams up. So we've had
a lot of long experiences with clients that

539
00:41:42.119 --> 00:41:46.400
once they go through this kind of
archetypal assessment, the archetypes are so sticky,

540
00:41:46.719 --> 00:41:51.360
right, Like they're like, oh, you know that, people get

541
00:41:51.360 --> 00:41:55.599
engaged around the story. Well,
so it's interesting. I did want you

542
00:41:55.679 --> 00:41:59.280
to tell maybe give us a case
study or an example of a company that

543
00:41:59.320 --> 00:42:02.039
you work with or who you helped
to understand their archetypes. But one thing

544
00:42:02.800 --> 00:42:06.880
online them things being sticky. One
of the things I found so great about

545
00:42:06.880 --> 00:42:13.079
your website is that you show are
you I should say, pair the archetypes

546
00:42:13.119 --> 00:42:15.719
with certain known companies And if I
have this right for memory, I believe

547
00:42:15.920 --> 00:42:20.360
Nike's is hero like me? Is
that right? Yeah? We would call

548
00:42:20.440 --> 00:42:25.000
Nike hero type of archetype because it's
inspiring and it's it's agentic, right,

549
00:42:25.960 --> 00:42:29.960
and I would I mean, there's
lots of reasons you know that we could

550
00:42:29.960 --> 00:42:32.760
go into both in terms of their
internal culture and in terms of how they

551
00:42:32.840 --> 00:42:37.000
have branded their organization. But I
would you know, just what are the

552
00:42:37.039 --> 00:42:40.360
three words that come to mind when
you think in Nike, just do it?

553
00:42:40.679 --> 00:42:44.719
Just do it. That's a hero
energy, right, just do it,

554
00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:46.960
just do it right? And so
it doesn't have to be about sneakers

555
00:42:46.960 --> 00:42:52.840
and athletic where it's more about the
feeling. What does it feel like when

556
00:42:52.840 --> 00:42:54.239
I step into that energy? I
love it. I love it. Of

557
00:42:54.239 --> 00:42:58.119
course I relate to this because one, I am from Oregon, like Nike.

558
00:42:58.239 --> 00:43:00.480
Okay, good, I am a
run I do run in Nike shoes.

559
00:43:00.519 --> 00:43:04.360
Thank you Nike. But anyway,
I just thought that was that's a

560
00:43:04.360 --> 00:43:07.679
great thing to illustrate a little bit
of stickiness that you're talking about. So

561
00:43:07.800 --> 00:43:10.679
totally that in mind. Then,
Cynthia, would you share an example or

562
00:43:10.719 --> 00:43:14.440
a case study of an organization you
work with, whether or not you want

563
00:43:14.440 --> 00:43:16.639
to use their real name or their
identity. But yeah, I'd be happy

564
00:43:16.679 --> 00:43:21.320
to and I'm going to use actually
a real name. There was a company

565
00:43:21.360 --> 00:43:25.800
based in Colorado where I am,
and the name of the company was DSc,

566
00:43:27.159 --> 00:43:30.719
which if doesn't mean anything to anybody, but that's another long story.

567
00:43:30.039 --> 00:43:37.000
They worked in the area of destination
services. You mean, they were meeting

568
00:43:37.039 --> 00:43:42.599
planners that would bring big groups into
Colorado and they would design the whole experience

569
00:43:42.639 --> 00:43:45.400
from when they picked them up at
the airport to you know, the dinners,

570
00:43:45.519 --> 00:43:51.079
the shows, everything they did to
kind of reward and recognize their corporate

571
00:43:51.119 --> 00:43:58.880
clients that came in and DSc brought
us in ten years ago to do some

572
00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:04.760
work around their culture and their brand, and through an archetypal analysis, they

573
00:44:04.840 --> 00:44:09.360
landed on just two two core stories
that really felt the most like them,

574
00:44:09.400 --> 00:44:14.719
and that was the Hero and it
was also the Sage. It was the

575
00:44:14.800 --> 00:44:20.639
combination of those two. So initially
what we did with that profile is we

576
00:44:20.719 --> 00:44:27.320
created a brand around it. We
created like their tagline DSE, we mastermined

577
00:44:27.599 --> 00:44:35.480
your experience. We combined know how
Sage with can do Hero like. We

578
00:44:35.960 --> 00:44:38.880
got really deliberate about how we language
things. We listened to all of their

579
00:44:38.920 --> 00:44:43.960
stories, all of their company lore, their traditions, et cetera, and

580
00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:49.559
we started to see like how they
acted and behaved and we boarded Hero and

581
00:44:49.760 --> 00:44:53.320
Sage type of behavior and how key
it was into delivering the experiences that they've

582
00:44:53.360 --> 00:45:00.800
built for their clients. Their growth
strategy was to acquire similar firms outside of

583
00:45:00.880 --> 00:45:02.760
Colorado. So over the time we
worked with them, they went out and

584
00:45:02.760 --> 00:45:07.800
they got some companies in Utah and
Wyoming and Nevada and they started having a

585
00:45:07.800 --> 00:45:13.360
bigger footprint account across the West.
So now they're merging cultures, right,

586
00:45:13.519 --> 00:45:16.039
what do we know about mergers?
So there is a real sticky thing.

587
00:45:16.159 --> 00:45:20.480
It's a hard thing to deal with. And so they were able to use

588
00:45:20.880 --> 00:45:24.960
that understanding, that definition of who
we are and what we value and what

589
00:45:25.000 --> 00:45:30.440
we stand for to bring new cultures
in. And so they would run entire

590
00:45:30.559 --> 00:45:35.400
meetings, like you know, engagement
experiences with the team, with the new

591
00:45:35.440 --> 00:45:39.280
team about their hero sage culture,
and in that way they were able to

592
00:45:39.360 --> 00:45:45.719
kind of indoctrinate it. Fast forward
one more time and they were actually acquired

593
00:45:45.280 --> 00:45:51.360
by a larger firm that was rolling
up companies. And the CEO of DSc

594
00:45:51.440 --> 00:45:53.320
said to me, you know,
they've invited me to come in. They

595
00:45:53.360 --> 00:45:58.159
want me to come in and do
what I did at DSc, And she's

596
00:45:58.239 --> 00:46:02.000
like trying to She's like, what
I didn't realize is that what we did

597
00:46:02.039 --> 00:46:07.559
with Hero Stage is we actually built
a culture. We took that identity and

598
00:46:07.639 --> 00:46:13.719
those ideas and how they resonated with
us and we built on it over and

599
00:46:13.800 --> 00:46:16.719
over again to the point where people
knew, this is who we are and

600
00:46:16.760 --> 00:46:21.480
this is our culture. So that's
what you would describe it as is we

601
00:46:21.559 --> 00:46:24.920
actually built a culture that's so exciting
all isn't it just amazing to get to

602
00:46:24.920 --> 00:46:29.880
do this kind of work? That's
just that's awesome. Well, we're coming

603
00:46:29.920 --> 00:46:31.920
close to the end of the program
already, but if you can just can

604
00:46:31.960 --> 00:46:36.760
you speak just briefly to you know, like the bottom line, what are

605
00:46:37.239 --> 00:46:38.480
the results? And when we talk
about this seems like, you know,

606
00:46:38.559 --> 00:46:40.239
the work that you do and the
work that I can be a little bit

607
00:46:40.239 --> 00:46:45.280
squishy to people who don't understand it. So how want to quantify the bottom

608
00:46:45.320 --> 00:46:50.800
line results of your work? I
love even the question, right because quantify

609
00:46:51.119 --> 00:46:55.960
and then right right, we're definitely
a data driven kind of society. So

610
00:46:57.400 --> 00:47:01.199
I will go and it worked.
Productivity and results and proof and ROI those

611
00:47:01.239 --> 00:47:06.239
things are important. They're very important
to decision makers. So I'll go back.

612
00:47:06.320 --> 00:47:08.519
You know, I tend to think
of the soft stuff as the hard

613
00:47:08.559 --> 00:47:15.079
stuff, like it is the hard
stuff, And I'll go back to what

614
00:47:15.079 --> 00:47:17.320
I said at the beginning, like
you know, we're who I am and

615
00:47:17.360 --> 00:47:22.079
how I should. My state of
being in any moment is contagious, and

616
00:47:22.679 --> 00:47:30.519
that is starting to inform your culture. So before we're numbers, before we're

617
00:47:30.559 --> 00:47:37.480
statistics, we are human beings.
And I think archetypes as a framework recognizes

618
00:47:37.559 --> 00:47:42.119
that we are human first, and
that if we can connect around some of

619
00:47:42.159 --> 00:47:47.280
those shared storylines for which our brains
are actually wired, it makes for a

620
00:47:47.360 --> 00:47:52.079
workplace that's a lot you know,
has a lot more potential. Beautifully said.

621
00:47:53.239 --> 00:47:55.360
So we're at the close of the
show and I'll have to give you

622
00:47:55.559 --> 00:47:58.920
the last word if we will.
So you know that the show's listened to

623
00:47:59.000 --> 00:48:00.880
buy people across the globe. But
it's all about helping to steward the conversation

624
00:48:00.960 --> 00:48:07.440
around meaningful workplaces and cultures and inspirational
leadership and conscious capitalism. What would you

625
00:48:07.440 --> 00:48:10.119
like to leave a listeners with and
say about thirty seconds, Well, if

626
00:48:10.159 --> 00:48:15.119
you're curious about your own archetypes or
how you're showing up, we have an

627
00:48:15.119 --> 00:48:22.119
assessment on our website for individuals.
If you're curious about bringing this work into

628
00:48:22.400 --> 00:48:25.599
organizations or leadership teams that you're coaching, consulting your training. We do have

629
00:48:25.639 --> 00:48:31.320
a certification program. We actually just
today this afternoon launched our final one for

630
00:48:31.400 --> 00:48:35.920
twenty twenty. But if you're interested
in learning more about that, just put

631
00:48:35.960 --> 00:48:38.559
your name on our email list,
which you'll see a form for at culturetalk

632
00:48:38.599 --> 00:48:43.360
dot com. Cynthia, thank you
so much for joining me. I love

633
00:48:43.400 --> 00:48:45.480
the work that you're doing and I
feel elevated by learning more about it.

634
00:48:45.519 --> 00:48:49.880
So thank you for joining me and
sharing sharing what you're doing with our listeners

635
00:48:49.920 --> 00:48:52.599
and our viewers. Yeah, thank
you. Really beautiful to be with you,

636
00:48:52.719 --> 00:48:57.000
very very welcome and listeners and viewers
you heard her say, Do you

637
00:48:57.000 --> 00:48:59.480
want to learn more about Cynthia Forsman
or the worksheet and your team we're doing

638
00:48:59.519 --> 00:49:04.119
at culture talk visit their website it
is culturetalk dot com. Last week,

639
00:49:04.119 --> 00:49:06.280
if you missed the live show,
you can always get to be a recorded

640
00:49:06.320 --> 00:49:09.559
podcast. We were on the air
with Thiebo Sangavi of Dasra in Mumbai,

641
00:49:09.599 --> 00:49:15.239
India, to learning about his strategic
philanthropy organization, how to Uplift the lives

642
00:49:15.280 --> 00:49:19.559
of one billion Indians. Incredibly inspiring
what this man and his team are up

643
00:49:19.559 --> 00:49:22.000
to and it's amazing what we can
do high on purpose and passion amazing.

644
00:49:22.800 --> 00:49:25.800
Next week, we'll be on the
air with Joshua Spodek talking about his latest

645
00:49:25.800 --> 00:49:30.800
book called Initiative, a proven method
to bring your passions to life and work.

646
00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:32.280
See you there. Remember that works
at least of our life, So

647
00:49:32.440 --> 00:49:42.320
let's work on purpose. We hope
you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure

648
00:49:42.360 --> 00:49:45.679
to tune in to Working on Purpose, featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes,

649
00:49:45.960 --> 00:49:51.800
each week on the Voice America Empowerment
Channel. Together, we'll create a

650
00:49:51.840 --> 00:49:59.519
world where business operates conscientiously. Leadership
inspires impassion performance, and employees are fulfilled

651
00:49:59.559 --> 00:50:04.519
in work provides the meaning and purpose
they crave. See you there, Let's

652
00:50:04.719 --> 00:50:05.639
work on Purpose.