Archetypes: For Unleashing Individuals, Companies and Cultures

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What's working on purpose anyway? Each
week we ponder the answer to this question.

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People ache for meaning and purpose at
work to contribute their talents passionately and

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know their lives really matter. They
crave being part of an organization that inspires

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them and helps them grow into realizing
their highest potential. Business can be such

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a force for good in the world, elevating humanity. In our program,

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we provide guidance and inspiration to help
usher in this world we all want working

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on purpose. Now. Here is
your host, Doctor Elise Cortez. Welcome

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back to the Working of Purpose program
Pasture Training again this week, I'm your

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host, doctor Elis Cortez. Johing
you live from Dallas, Texas, which

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is home based for me. By
introduce. If you don't know me,

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I'm a masgement consultant specializing in meaning
and purpose. I'm an organizational logotherapist,

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inspirational speaker, social scientist, and
author. You can learn more about me

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in the work that I do at
Alice Cortez dot com or Gusto Dashnow dot

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com. If you've been tuning in
for a while, you know this program

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is a thought leadership series that enlightens
and inspires listeners and viewers with insights who

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distinguish business leaders, authors, and
subject matter experts. By listening in,

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you're part of the movement to create
inspirational leaders and enlightening work places where we

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can thrive and do business that betters
the world. Glad you're here now.

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In this week's program with this is
Cynthia Forceman, who has a passion for

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storytelling. As an archetypal explorer,
she works with individuals to uncover and connect

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the hidden symbols, patterns, and
passions that give their lives and work meaning.

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As a founding partner at Culture Talk, she helps organizations design cultures,

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brands, and communications programs that are
driven from a place of authenticity and deep

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awareness. We'll be talking about how
she developed her twelve archetypes and the work

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she does. She joges today from
Denver, Colorado. Cynthia, Welcome to

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Working on Purpose. Thank you so
much. It's great to be here at

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least thank you is Isn't it wonderful
we find each other because we have fantastic

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connections in the world. Thank you
Elie Taha for bringing us together. Right.

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I love the fact that I get
to literally have conversations with people from

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across the world, and we have
listeners who enjoy the program from across the

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world. So I feel like I'm
connected and thanks to you as well for

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that, and I love your background
as well. I think we share some

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really similar parts of our stories.
So great to be here. Absolutely,

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And to that end, the first
thing I wanted to start with is we

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both have this focus to help you
and thrive in the world. So why

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is that important to you? Why
do you care so much about that kind

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of work. Well, maybe the
simplest way to put it is, I

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tend to think that our state of
being is contagious. I love that.

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I completely agree. Yeah, it's
not one hundred percent mine. One of

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my mentors, Tammy Simon, recently
said that not just so resonated with it,

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because you know, how I show
up in any given moment in my

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life and my job role as a
parent, as a partner in a relationship,

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I'm affecting everybody else. You know. My ability to show up fully,

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wholly, authentically, in alignment with
myself and my own purpose affects everything

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around me. I mean, we're
just energetic that way, completely agree fully

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aligned. And another thing about us
that makes us really interesting of course,

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is we bring our whole package or
what we've come through, how we were

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raised, and our genetic qualities,
et cetera, to the world. And

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one of the things I find so
interesting about you and your work with archetypes

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and your culture focus on individing companies
is that you talk about having grown up

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in a family with ten children,
which, as you refer to as it

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was a small organization. Right,
So help us understand how that experience of

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growing up as contributed to and informed
the work you do today in archetypes and

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culture. Yeah, yeah, I
mean I did. I mean, how

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many small companies do we know or
family owned businesses that are you know,

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less than ten people. So I
literally my first organizational experience was being an

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aggressta and on third of ten.
So I'm at the top of the brood.

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And I guess, you know,
at least some of the things I

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learned early on in my life was
group, you know, was being part

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of a system, was being part
of something that was bigger than just me.

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And you know, we had rituals, we had traditions, we had

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rules, we had hierarchy, we
had you know, God help you if

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you were late. When when it
was time for dinner because no one could

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eat right, So we had,
you know, that kind of reinforcement from

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each other. But probably the most
important aspect of what we learned was teamwork.

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Right if we were going to Grandpa's
or we were going to the beach,

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or we we're going to church on
Sunday morning, but a lot of

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things had to happen, and it
takes a big coordinated effort. And we

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I mean in our family, so
we I know, we're going to talk

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a little bit about twelve archetypes with
my parents. There are twelve of us,

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and so you know, there is
a lot of different perspectives if you

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will, even amongst my siblings and
my family members that you know, you

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learn to work with people, You
learn to collaborate to allow for differences in

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opinion and need and all that kind
of thing. Yeah, And I had

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wondered if you could find representation of
all of your twelve archetypes and your family.

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I was wondering about that. But
but I want to help our listeners

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understand first just even how you got
into the work, right, you studied

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archetypes, and I know that you
you had someone a mentor or somebody that

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you were working with here. But
what's interesting from my advantage point, I

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don't know a lot about archetypes,
but from what I don't foot from what

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I think I know of them,
and you tell me if I'm way off.

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I see them as both and identity
orientation and a way of moving through

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the world and being connected to it. I love that definition. I think

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you've got a very clear way of
thinking about archetypes. But I'll give you

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a couple of other ways. So
I have background in psychology and positive psycho

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masters and positive psychology writing for both
of us has got to come from right.

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I have it too. That's that's
right. How do we thrive?

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But Carl Jung, who was a
Swiss psychotherapist in the mid nineteen hundreds,

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was really the person who coined that
term archetype. And he was also somebody

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that was into studying symbols and patterns
and things that had shown up in history

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and religion and gods and goddesses.
And what he started to notice is that

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there's certain patterns that seem not specific
to you, Elise or me, but

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they seem to be patterns that repeat
themselves over time, kind of storylines that

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provide structure as a way of understanding
who we are. And so he was

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the first person that really talked about
archetypes. And he had lots and lots

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and lots of archetypes. There's a
lot of you know, there's no number

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of thinkers, educators, philosophers who
have some kind of archetypal system, and

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they may have different numbers of archetypes. But he had many, many archetypes,

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and he he looked at you know, he his thought was the key

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to consciousness was really to look within
at your own patterns, your own stories,

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and to you know, if you
have a friend who says, if

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you can, you know, if
you don't manage your archetypes, your archetypes

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are going to manage you. So
how do we become how do we use

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archetypes as a way of becoming aware
of the patterning that we're stepping into.

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So I know that you have twelve
archetypes, and thank you again allowing me

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to take the assessable. We'll talk
a little bit later about both of our

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little but first, before we talk
about the actual architects themselves, would you

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say a little bit about how you
derive them? Oh? Yes, So

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the twelve we use that culture talk. We use a group of twelve archetypes.

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And that framework actually comes from another
young and researcher by the name of

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Carol Pearson. And Carol I would
credit Carol with bringing archetypes into the modern

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workplace. She really focused on,
you know, young said archetypes show up

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in individuals as personality, but they
also show up in groups as culture.

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And so Carol is an organizational development
thinker who was really curious about how these

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same patterns show up in groups and
in organizations and an organizational culture. And

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so she identified twelve work of twelve
and that is the framework that we have

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built the work upon. I had
a chance to study with Carol early on

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into my career and it was definitely
one of those game changer moments to learn

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about her work. Oh, I
totally get it right. I am such

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a sucker for learning. I wish
you could see my bookshelf over here.

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I just love it. If I've
always thought if I ever had to pack

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up a move again, what would
I do with all my books? Yeah?

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With me? Well, let's let's
have a little fun here and help

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our listeners and viewers understand a little
something about these twelve market types. Can

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you talk about each one of them
just briefly? Sure? And so in

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the system of twelve that we use, there is the innocent, and very

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simply, the innocent might be considered
kind of the optimist, you know,

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the person who sees the glass half
full. There's also the every person who

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is that kind of personality that's about
fairness, about justice, about leveling the

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playing field, kind of has a
mind for you know, how do we

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connect as a group. Then we
have the hero and the caregiver. The

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hero, I know being one of
yours that we're going to talk about,

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but definitely that that courageous, brave, inspiring type of personality that just gets

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things done, whereas the caregiver might
be a gentler archetype that's more about seeing

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people, seeing needs, seeing who
needs what, and serving to create stability

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and nurturing people. So those are
the next two. And then we have

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the explorer and the lover. You
might think about the explorers kind of that

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curiosity driven individual, that early adopter, that person that's just like always out

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there looking at what's just just beyond
the edge, if you will, whereas

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the lover is like, instead of
being out there is like to draw them

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in kind of energy. It's the
connecting, it's the one on one connection,

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its relationships. Then the next two
patterns are creator and revolutionary, And

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I'll actually talk about revolutionary first because
revolutionary is like the pattern that you know,

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kind of rubs against the grain,
questions the status quo, notices like

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what's not working and says why are
we doing that? And the Creator is

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a pattern that can come in and
make new things, innovate, make things

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very tangible. So they're kind of
an interesting pairing because one's kind of doing

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a way and one's making new things. And then I got four more.

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So the next two are the magician
and the Ruler. The Ruler being a

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pattern that is about responsibility, stepping
up and leading, taking control, seeing

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what needs to be done, kind
of coming in in a confident, commanding

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way that helps create stability. Were
the Magician is an energy that is about

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transformation and change. Right, so
what's our bigger vision where we're going are

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what is somebody's potential? And can
we make some bold intuitive leaps into a

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new reality if you will. And
then the final pairing is Sage and Jesture.

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Sage is a story that is about
wisdom. It's about knowledge. It's

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about learning all the facts and the
proofs and having the ideas and being very

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sound in judgment and thoughtful and critical
thinking. And the Jester. We'll follow

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up with the twelfth, which is
a jesterre, which is like a pattern

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of fun and a pattern of lightheartedness
and a pattern of let's enjoy each and

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every moment and let's not take everything
so seriously. So listeners and viewers,

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I hope that as she was sharing
those things that you might start to recognize

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something in yourself. We're going to
talk more about each of ours after the

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break here. But the other thing
I want to point out is that if

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I have this right that you seem
to oftentimes, I think in your report,

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actually you give us our top three. Yes, right, Yeah,

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it's important to talk about that we're
not It's not just that we have So

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how would you say that we were
not just expressing one archetype? How would

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you say that? Yeah? So
I would say, you know, there

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are some personality assessments that kind of
box people in and say, oh,

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you're a this, so you're that, And archetypal assessment is more about how

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do we create how do we let
somebody's story emerge? And none of us

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is all of the archetypes us?
Hello? Who is the public? Is

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Charlie Brown? Charlie Brown, Hello
Charlie? None of us is all of

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one and none of the other.
We actually have the capacity each of us

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to tap into those storylines, but
we kind of have a two or three

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or four that our go tos,
that are our natural tendencies that we respond

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unconsciously, if you will, in
a certain three or four patterns. So,

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yeah, you have access. And
I think your report actually shows you

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your scores across all twelve. It
does. Yeah, So then if I

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have this right, this is also
important for our listeners and viewers understand it.

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Are you suggesting? Are you saying
that we can grow into and access

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all of the archetypes at some point? I would say maybe? Not?

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All right? I optimistic? Am
I? Yeah? No? I think

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it's an individual journey. I think
that what we find is that there's certain

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patterns and stories that are just part
of who we are. Right, I

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can't help I can't help showing up
with that. But then as we become

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conscious, and this was Young's point, as we become conscious of our stories

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and our patterns. We can shift, we can develop underdeveloped traits, we

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can be more intentional about what we're
trying to create in our life experiences.

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So it's sort of a yes and
we are. Certain patterns are natural,

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but we have capacity to develop patterns
and sometimes in response to life, you

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know, certain patterns may show up
for us beautiful. We do have a

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couple of interactions with our online chat
folks. We'll get those after the break

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that we let's take our first break. I'm doctor Leise Cortez, your host.

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We've got on the air with Cynthiaforceman. She's the co founder of culture

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Talk. We've been talking a bit
about how she got into the work that

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she's doing, why it's so compelling
to her, and how she derived the

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twelve archetypes she worked with in organizations. After the break, we're going to

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get into the nit nitty gritty of
it and hear her talk about my results

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as well as what she does with
with customers. Certain clients. Stay with

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us, We'll be right back.
Doctor release Cortez is a management consultant specializing

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in meaning and purpose and inspirational speaker
and author. She helps companies Visioneer for

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greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose
inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate

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fulfillment, performance, and commitment within
the workforce. To learn more or to

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invite a Lease to speak to your
organization, please visit her at Eleise Cortez

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dot com. Let's talk about how
to get your employees working on purpose.

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This is working on Purpose with doctor
Release Cortez. To reach our program today

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or open a conversation with Elise,
send an email to Aleise Alis at Eleise

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Cortez dot com. Now back to
working on Purpose. Thanks for staying with

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us, and welcome back to working
on Purpose. I have to say I'd

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forgotten much as in my opening,
but my book is out. Purpose Ignited

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is out. I actually had up
to say that it's my pandemic baby.

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That's what I was doing during the
pandemic. So it's out. It's called

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Purpose United, How inspiring leaders ignite, passion and enovate cause I really wrote

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it to turn on on readers to
their own passion, inspiration and purpose,

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So that's why I wrote it.
It's out there for you back to the

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program if you're just joining us.
Cynthia Enforcement is my guest she's the co

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founder of culture Talk. She told
you today from Denver, Colorado. Okay,

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so we had a couple of questions
come in before we get into the

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next piece of things here. The
first question is is there a book out

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about these archetypes and how can I
get my own? We actually have an

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assessment tool at culture talk dot com
where you can take an archetypal assessment,

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much like we did at least to
her assessment. So that's one resource.

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Carol Pearson, who I mentioned earlier, has several books out that explore all

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different aspects to learning your storylines and
working with them. So to supersiss listeners,

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thank you for your engagement and your
questions. Appreciate the interactions. Great.

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Okay, so what we also wanted
to do in this In this segment

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here, Cynthia's talk about each of
our results and kind of how they show

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up in what they mean. So
let's start. Let's start with you if

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we can. So you you you
said that your highest archetype is creator,

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then caregiver, then lover and though
your core three. So first I want

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to understand how does knowing your core
archetypes serve you in your life? Yeah,

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so there's a lot of different ways
that we can apply archetypal thinking.

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And you know, I mentioned you
know, by tapping in and seeing your

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own storylines, you can start to
become more purpose driven, more intentional about

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what you're creating. That's just one
way we could look at archetype. Archetype

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as a framework has built into it
several ways of being applied that help us

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develop as individuals, as leaders.
So, for example, each of the

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storylines that I described briefly has elements
to it that we call strengths, but

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it also has a shadows, right, and they come as part of the

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same package. So as we start
to get in touch with our own storylines,

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what happens is we start to become
aware of some of the stuff we

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drag into interactions with us. And
so the ability to see our shadow,

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to get to know our shadow,
the ability to tap in. Because every

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one of those storylines is a motivational
pattern, they're all motivated by something different,

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and I think motivation is a great
why question, it's a great purpose

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question. So there's a whole opportunity. I mean, we develop personal brands,

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we develop personal purpose statements. I
can share mine in a minute,

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but we also look at how can
this person evolve and grow, how can

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they step out of shadow, how
can they manage themselves in the moment or

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over their course of their lifetime to
become more of a more highly evolved version

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of a pattern. You know,
we also get interactions with our type.

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So whatever your core types are,
in my work type part they kind of

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define our lens right, both what
we see but also what we don't see

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because we're coming at it from this
perspective and this motivation. So there's a

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lot of there's a lot of juice
in story telling that helps us connect,

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that helps us understand and align ourselves, that helps us shift our behaviors,

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all of those things well, and
part of the work. The reason I

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like doing this kind of this kind
of work, and I'm going to ask

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you to talk to me about my
results as well, is because this whole

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notion of right self understanding and awareness
is forever right of learning about who we

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really are and what makes us take
us for everything, Which is why for

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me in my book, I have
a whole section or a whole chapter just

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on identity alone, because it's so
important to understand who we are and who

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we're being in the world and some
of the interactions we're seeing in the chat

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here is how can we see what
we don't see? A lot of this

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is, you know, a lot
of this is like ongoing work to work

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through, like an assessment and the
consulting that you do to help us be

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able to see what we can't see
on our own, because it's just so

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so much the water we swim in
that we can't distinguish it totally. Right,

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So what is your purpose statement?
I want to make one more comment,

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then I'm going to tell you what
mine is. You know another Yeah,

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another newer way that we are applying
our types is actually in the conversation

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around diversity and inclusion in terms of
how do we deepen those conversations? And

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I make that comment because when you
ask how can we see someone else's perspective?

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What arc types do is they help
us, you know, make our

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subjective view of the world more objective. Right. If I know, oh,

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I'm looking through the creator lens,
then I have this appreciation that a

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lease has a different lens, right, at least has a different motivation,

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and I can start to you know, appreciate and if I don't have those

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patterns, I can start to appreciate
somebody else's lens, so comment. So

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my three right, So creator,
it's kind of meaning maker, let's just

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call it shorthand like a creator as
a meaning maker. So it's no wonder

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that I love storytelling so much.
The lover is a connector, like a

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relationship builder, like a relationship with
self and each other. And the caregiver

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is like this nurture or this grower, this like mentor of whom you can

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you know perhaps so if you take
those three together, for me, I

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have created a purpose statement that I
say, my purpose is to create wonder

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standing, to create wonderstanding. And
what I mean by that the creator energy

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obviously in the word create, but
I love the word understanding because a I

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made it up, and that's what
creators do. They make me up.

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But also, you know there's a
d I feel like wonder as a word

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gets at the energy of this like
deeper connection we can have with ourselves with

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each other. Right, that deeper
level of connection and understanding that we can

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create with archetypes and storytelling. So
that's what I'm here to do. Well,

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I love the work you're doing,
and I'm so happy we crossed paths.

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It was supposed to happen, so
it was one one day or the

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other. That's how it was going
to be so exactly. So while I

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have you, you're you're, you're
the professional here, I did want to

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talk about my results. The first
one came back as hero and then ruler

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in the innocent I didn't quite understand
the hero first very well until I went

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to your website. But talk to
me a little bit, if you would,

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about how you would help me understand
my results and maybe what they mean

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for me totally. So first of
all, I just want to make a

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comment on hero and that is one
of the hallmarks of hero is they don't

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think of themselves as heroes. That's
kind of like a hallmark, right,

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So it is one of the patterns
that sometimes takes people a little bit more.

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We're digging to see how that pattern
is expressing itself. But you know,

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the first thing we do is we
offer an assessment that you took a

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lease. And I would say a
first thing that you should do as an

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individual is kind of give it a
gut read read pattern, like what resonates?

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What does it resonate? Because you
have more capacity than here and you

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may not resonate with every aspect of
that pattern. So we go through a

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whole process. We have a community
of coaches and consultants that are certified to

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use our assessment tools in their programs, and what we train them on is

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how to walk people through a validation
experience. So you take your survey,

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you get your results, but you
know what, it's a seventy two question

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questionnaire. It's a validated it's a
validated instrument. So I know it's measuring

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patterns. But what's more important to
me is that you elease have a felt

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experience and internalization that goes, oh, I see that, I see how

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that pattern shows up in my personal
life and my work life, and my

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family life, in my career choices, because it can become like a red

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thread that goes, how did I
get here? You know? And what

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was so hero? You know?
As a pattern is this very inspirational pattern.

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It's a it's a pattern that makes
other people go, oh, I

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can be bigger, braver and stronger
because the hero gives me that sense of

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courage and determination. So I cant
that is definitely my dam is what I

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do for sure? Yeah? Yeah, and you know so you may not

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resonate with everything. So I would
suggest, like how I would work with

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you is we would go through your
top three or maybe four scoring patterns and

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we'd put put the questions to you, like, do you resonate what are

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how do you see those that pattern
show up in a really strong way for

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you, in a positive way?
Do you resonate at all with any of

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the shadow aspects of that? You
know? You know, do people say

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those things about you? If you
will? And do you have specific stories

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that illustrate the point? Right,
So if we dug into each of your

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patterns, give me an example of
when you showed up in a high hero

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positive way and what you were able
to do for somebody. Because hero energy

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is motivated by challenge, right,
Like every time there's an obstacle that energy

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does not even see it. It's
like boom, I'm going to cross right

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over that and I'm gonna you know, I'm going to run into the fire

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and I'm going to take really principled
action because that's the kind of energy that

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hero brings. Yeah, so you're
part here. You might have some hero

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and you might have some of these
other patterns too. And I did I

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noticed the ruler's in there, and
I got that. So but thank you

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that that helps me just better understand
a little bit. It distinguishes my own

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cells, if you will, for
myself and listeners and viewers who are asking

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those questions about how do we see
ours? That's part of it is holding

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up a mirror and having somebody else
help to see what maybe we can't see

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for ourselves. It's a beautiful thing
to do and to that. And let's

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take the conversation next into what you
do with leadership and in company culture.

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So I first want to understand how
this particular work helps leaders understand themselves and

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lead better by knowing their archetype.
Yeah, so everyone or most people are

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familiar with the term emotional intelligence,
right. So Daniel Goldman's work and it

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was really really revolutionary twenty five years
ago when he introduced his celebrating his twenty

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fifth anniversary. But this idea that
leadership was about more than mental capacity and

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more than results. That in fact, the higher up the food chain you

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went in an organization, the less
work product you were producing, and the

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more the focus was on how do
you manage, inspire and lead people?

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How do you motivate them, how
do you get them engaged? You know,

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all of these kinds of things which
takes different skill set. So I

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would say with archetypes, there's an
aspect to it that is about reading emotional

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intelligence. But we sometimes talk about
it as narrative intelligence. Right, So

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as a leader, if I start
to look at my own stories, if

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I start to define my own archetypal
profile, I can I can say,

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oh wow, when I'm showing up
in these patterns and these strengths, that's

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when I'm at my best. I
need to develop more of that in myself.

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Or I can start to experience what's
that shadow content that gets in the

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way, right if you have high
rule or like yours, like a person

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who's very responsible steps up and takes
charge, but also in a shadow place

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might come across as like a little
bossy, right, So it's both side,

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both sides of the coin you've got. So there's like this narrative intelligence

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if your own life, how am
I going to manage myself as a leader

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or how am I going to grow
evolve and develop into the kind of leader

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I want to be? But then
you know, what about all the people

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on your team and what if you
understood they were all motivated by something different.

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They all have their own story and
their own storylines. Now you can

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start to see how do I manage
an individual, How do I engage them?

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How do I turn up their motivation? How do I create a performance

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management plan or career strategy that helps
them grow evolve? Because it's all through

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this, you know the framework of
stories. Our brains are actually wired for

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stories and neuroscience points set out now
right like when the human brain, even

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if we get a list of facts
we translated into a story, and when

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we see the neural connections that light
up when we hear a story, just

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how it is how we're wired.
So now you know you can manage the

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team. You could make hiring decisions
by we don't use the archtypes to filter

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out or discriminate, but can help
us to understand the deeper drivers of someone

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we're interviewing. It can help us
ask different questions and so there's a lot

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of potential. I think I mentioned
the diversity as another example. Who on

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the team brings what to the party, so to speak? And we have

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all of the perspectives, and how
do we resolve conflict between different archetypes,

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and how do we assign work based
on what things you are well aligned to

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you, you know, in terms
of your motivations and strengths, which I

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find terribly exciting as a gulp clarified
strength coach and just being able to see

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the uniqueness in every human being.
I never tire of that. It didn'tccur

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to me to ask you, because
then the next seg that I want to

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talk about the work that you do
inside organizations and with leaders and cultures.

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But it did occur to me to
ask you if a leader's architect archetype is

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better when it aligns with that of
the organization. If they're more effective,

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if they're stronger if it aligns with
that. No, Okay, now it's

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kind of a common miss perception,
like if if an organization, if we

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measure the organizational culture and we find
out it's a high hero culture, should

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we have all heroes? And quite
frankly, that's terrifying, right the thought

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of im on the heels of a
diversity conversation, right, yeah, right,

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So it is less about I need
to align with the archetype of the

407
00:31:22.440 --> 00:31:30.160
organization and more about if I understand
that this organization's purpose is some combination of

408
00:31:30.279 --> 00:31:36.160
archetypes too. Let's just say that
they have an explore lover. Creator is

409
00:31:36.200 --> 00:31:41.680
their you know, their profile.
My job now is to figure out how

410
00:31:41.720 --> 00:31:48.920
do I show up as my best
aligned self in service to this group thing

411
00:31:48.079 --> 00:31:52.559
that we're doing. So what does
the group count on me to bring to

412
00:31:52.599 --> 00:31:57.480
the party in order that all of
us together can create this other experience that

413
00:31:57.519 --> 00:32:00.839
we're trying to deliver. How exciting. I love it. I love what

414
00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:05.160
you do. It's so great.
Let's grab our next break. I'm Elise

415
00:32:05.240 --> 00:32:07.680
Cortez. Her host. We don't
know a Cynthia Forceman. She's the co

416
00:32:07.759 --> 00:32:10.160
founder of Culture Talk. We've been
talking a bit about how archetypes are used

417
00:32:10.680 --> 00:32:14.319
organizations. After the break, we're
going to get more in detail about how

418
00:32:14.319 --> 00:32:16.920
she actually does this work with regard
to culture and leadership. Stay with us,

419
00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:22.799
we'll be right back. Doctor Release. Cortez is a management consultant specializing

420
00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:28.200
in meaning and purpose and inspirational speaker
and author. She helps companies visioneer for

421
00:32:28.279 --> 00:32:35.440
greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose
inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate

422
00:32:35.480 --> 00:32:40.359
fulfillment, performance, and commitment within
the workforce to learn more or to invite

423
00:32:40.400 --> 00:32:45.319
a Lease to speak to your organization, please visit her at a lease Cortez

424
00:32:45.400 --> 00:32:49.559
dot com. Let's talk about how
to get your employees working on purpose.

425
00:32:55.720 --> 00:33:00.359
This is working on Purpose with doctor
Release Cortez. To reach our program today

426
00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:07.400
or open a conversation with Elise,
send an email to Elise ali se at

427
00:33:07.400 --> 00:33:19.200
Elise Cortez dot com. Now back
to working on purpose. Thanksteresting with us,

428
00:33:19.200 --> 00:33:21.960
and welcome back to working on purpose. Another thing that I wanted to

429
00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:23.880
share with you that we cooked up
during the pandemic is this little thing called

430
00:33:23.960 --> 00:33:29.920
Gusto now and it's an e learning
platform for leadership and the professional development courses.

431
00:33:29.960 --> 00:33:31.799
And so we've offered we've got a
suite of courses now in English,

432
00:33:31.839 --> 00:33:36.400
Spanish and Portuguese, which are my
languages and I love them. Now back

433
00:33:36.440 --> 00:33:38.359
to our program we've have with us
today. Cynthia Forceman. She's the co

434
00:33:38.440 --> 00:33:42.720
founder of Culture Talk. She's joining
us today from Denver, Colorado. I'm

435
00:33:42.720 --> 00:33:45.599
your host, doctor Elis Cortez.
So in this last segment here, since

436
00:33:45.640 --> 00:33:50.079
I really wanted to really roll up
our sleeves and hear you talk about the

437
00:33:50.119 --> 00:33:52.440
work that you do inside organizations to
bring it home for our listeners and viewers.

438
00:33:53.039 --> 00:33:57.640
So if you can start just maybe
generically of just sharing, how do

439
00:33:57.680 --> 00:34:00.559
you work with companies to help them
understand their archetype as an organization? Yeah,

440
00:34:00.599 --> 00:34:07.759
so the cultural archetypes. So we
have two assessment tools that we have

441
00:34:07.960 --> 00:34:13.800
built. One is designed to measure
individual personality through the lens of twelve archtypes.

442
00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:16.320
So who am I, how do
I perceive myself the world, what

443
00:34:16.400 --> 00:34:23.119
motivates me, et cetera. The
second tool actually measures the shared experience,

444
00:34:23.639 --> 00:34:28.199
or what we like to call the
unwritten rules of engagement. I think I

445
00:34:28.239 --> 00:34:31.320
heard you at least describe it as
like the water we're swimming in. So

446
00:34:31.719 --> 00:34:35.480
you know, how do we you
know, because everyone's talking about culture,

447
00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:39.719
but it is this very intangible thing, right, and culture talk and archetypes

448
00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:45.000
was designed to again help us see
the subjective lens and to make it a

449
00:34:45.039 --> 00:34:50.639
tangible thing. So, you know, there's lots of different things. Culture

450
00:34:51.519 --> 00:34:55.159
is a big topic. And you
know, you don't always get a call

451
00:34:55.320 --> 00:35:00.320
from an organization saying, God,
I have a culture problem. You get

452
00:35:00.800 --> 00:35:05.440
calls that say, I have a
leadership problem, I have a branding problem,

453
00:35:05.480 --> 00:35:09.760
I have a reputational crisis on no
one's engaged, our turnover is high.

454
00:35:09.920 --> 00:35:15.920
Like culture problems show up in like
various symptomatic ways, right, But

455
00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:21.599
the thing that connects all of that
is like the share group experience. Not

456
00:35:22.039 --> 00:35:25.199
you know, we try to write
down like here's our guiding principles, here's

457
00:35:25.199 --> 00:35:30.599
our mission vision values, but there's
an aspect to organizational behavior that's like what

458
00:35:30.639 --> 00:35:36.480
we actually tolerate, not just what
we say, but what we actually do.

459
00:35:36.519 --> 00:35:39.639
And that's what culture talk is designed
to measure. So, just like

460
00:35:40.159 --> 00:35:45.920
in working with an individual, the
first step is actually measuring the culture using

461
00:35:45.920 --> 00:35:50.320
that assessment. And you can have
everybody in a company take the assessment.

462
00:35:50.840 --> 00:35:54.000
You can even add demographic questions that
allow you to look at different departments,

463
00:35:54.239 --> 00:36:00.760
tenure, anything like that, and
they get a result across all bark types.

464
00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:07.000
But you have to walk through a
validation experience. So for our consultants

465
00:36:07.039 --> 00:36:13.679
and trainers and coaches that are using
the system, they would you know,

466
00:36:13.800 --> 00:36:19.679
run focused groups, run stakeholder interviews. They would go about getting more proof

467
00:36:19.719 --> 00:36:24.480
points like for why are these patterns
showing up in the story, And we're

468
00:36:24.519 --> 00:36:29.320
going to take the organization, the
leadership team, whatever team is involved in

469
00:36:29.360 --> 00:36:32.880
the conversation through the patterns that they're
showing up and what does this look like,

470
00:36:32.920 --> 00:36:36.400
what does it sound like? What
are your stories? How is this

471
00:36:36.480 --> 00:36:40.639
part of your strengths? Is it
showing up a shadow? So similarly getting

472
00:36:40.679 --> 00:36:45.519
them to validate, because that's where
the magic is. The magic is not

473
00:36:45.639 --> 00:36:49.960
in the assessment. You know,
it's part art and part science. The

474
00:36:50.119 --> 00:36:55.079
science piece is it's a validated instrument. But the art piece of it is

475
00:36:55.199 --> 00:37:00.639
kind of like getting a group to
buy in to the shared idea of who

476
00:37:00.679 --> 00:37:05.639
they are. And so then instead
of culture being this very intangible like we

477
00:37:05.719 --> 00:37:07.639
have a great culture, we have
a toxic culture, we have a learning

478
00:37:07.639 --> 00:37:12.920
culture, like all these very generic
warrants, now they can say we have

479
00:37:13.320 --> 00:37:17.480
a revolutionary, you know, innocent
culture, and here's how it shows up.

480
00:37:17.519 --> 00:37:22.000
They have a language they can use. Totally understand that from the work

481
00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:25.079
that I do too with culture.
But now, next though, if you

482
00:37:25.079 --> 00:37:30.159
will help us understand how do companies
how do you help companies steward their culture

483
00:37:30.159 --> 00:37:36.159
of their communication with an understanding of
their archetype. Yeah, so, I

484
00:37:36.199 --> 00:37:40.000
mean again, stories are just rich, right, They're packed with so much

485
00:37:40.280 --> 00:37:44.719
right, you know, I mean
we're wired for story, and some of

486
00:37:44.760 --> 00:37:50.280
what we get in the stories motivation
strengths values out of story, and so

487
00:37:50.440 --> 00:37:53.639
in a lot of ways, stories, our stories can become a blueprint.

488
00:37:54.360 --> 00:37:58.760
Right. So, if you're working
with someone on developing a purpose, statement

489
00:37:58.760 --> 00:38:02.039
of mission, vision values statement,
a culture code, and employee engagement,

490
00:38:04.360 --> 00:38:07.880
a brand, whatever it is,
when they start to have their own language

491
00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:12.320
for talking about it, you can
use that and apply it. Betty,

492
00:38:12.360 --> 00:38:15.760
you can take the assessment once,
but you can apply it out over and

493
00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:20.079
over again to all sorts of new
things, because culture connects at all.

494
00:38:20.360 --> 00:38:23.039
It's the glue. Yeah. Well, and certainly one of the things that

495
00:38:23.079 --> 00:38:27.280
I saw somewhere on your website which
makes the most complete sense too, is

496
00:38:27.320 --> 00:38:30.760
even just understanding your architect can help
you improve your recruiting. And of course

497
00:38:30.800 --> 00:38:35.000
I started in my human capital career
twenty some years ago in recruiting, and

498
00:38:35.039 --> 00:38:39.639
I certainly understand how if we can
presence and talk about ourselves and describe ourselves

499
00:38:39.719 --> 00:38:43.079
through our archetype of course, and
people can say, Yep, that's what

500
00:38:43.239 --> 00:38:45.760
I like that I really or Nope, I don't like that at all,

501
00:38:45.159 --> 00:38:49.920
right, so it really helps us, I think, select more appropriate people

502
00:38:49.960 --> 00:38:53.159
but can you say a bit more
about how using archetype can help with recruitment

503
00:38:53.199 --> 00:39:00.760
efforts. Yeah, so, you
know, employee branding and talent branding kind

504
00:39:00.800 --> 00:39:02.639
of feel like it's still newer.
It's newer in my career, right.

505
00:39:02.679 --> 00:39:07.960
We weren't talking about that a number
of years ago. But because we are

506
00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:14.280
where we are in terms of information
technology in in you know, people making

507
00:39:14.400 --> 00:39:16.800
choices of millennial generation that came along
and said, hey, you know what

508
00:39:16.840 --> 00:39:21.519
it's about more than a paycheck,
I want to I want to be involved

509
00:39:21.559 --> 00:39:24.800
in something meaningful, and they're looking
for that. It would be pays for

510
00:39:24.840 --> 00:39:31.719
an organization to become intentional about how
they're languaging, how they're putting themselves out

511
00:39:31.760 --> 00:39:37.519
there, what kind of stories they're
telling about their organization to attract people.

512
00:39:37.039 --> 00:39:43.719
And you can't think it right because
a moment you say you are something and

513
00:39:43.800 --> 00:39:46.599
I come in and I go,
you are not that I have the opposite

514
00:39:46.639 --> 00:39:51.760
experience that's going to create, you
know, a crisis. Whereas if you

515
00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:55.159
work from first understanding what is it
in our culture? You know, like

516
00:39:55.239 --> 00:40:00.199
what's the what's the secret sauce?
Because how we show up in those say

517
00:40:00.199 --> 00:40:02.880
it's three or four patterns that we
choose to use to build a brand or

518
00:40:02.920 --> 00:40:09.320
an employment brand around like there's only
one you, there's only one you organization

519
00:40:09.480 --> 00:40:14.719
with this unique vision, this unique
group of people that came together to deliver

520
00:40:14.760 --> 00:40:17.400
them. And if we can let
the brand or the talent brand or the

521
00:40:19.039 --> 00:40:22.079
be like actually emerge out of our
culture, Like some of the feedbaculate you're

522
00:40:22.199 --> 00:40:25.000
from clients is like, Oh,
it's exactly what I always wanted to say

523
00:40:25.039 --> 00:40:29.840
about myself, our company, our
organization, but I didn't have the words.

524
00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:34.639
Ye, So Archetypes gives us that, like very tangible words, and

525
00:40:34.679 --> 00:40:38.599
then when we're out telling stories that
are true, that are authentic to who

526
00:40:38.639 --> 00:40:43.800
we are, you know, that's
where those things start to align and resonate.

527
00:40:43.960 --> 00:40:46.199
We live in a glass box,
so you know, our culture is

528
00:40:46.199 --> 00:40:52.079
our brand. I wanted to come
into what you said there earlier about the

529
00:40:52.400 --> 00:40:55.320
words whatever it was, but not
being spoken. But I when I do

530
00:40:55.440 --> 00:40:59.920
work like this too, what I've
come to say is that really what I'm

531
00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:02.360
doing as I'm capturing, the words
are hanging in the air but not necessarily

532
00:41:02.400 --> 00:41:07.280
spoken, right, and it's and
it's so right. So you know this,

533
00:41:07.440 --> 00:41:08.239
it's so powerful and people think,
oh, yeah, that's right,

534
00:41:08.280 --> 00:41:12.679
that's us. So that's me.
It's it's it's incredible to get to do

535
00:41:12.679 --> 00:41:15.920
that work. I love to watch
people's molecules change when they get that awareness.

536
00:41:15.239 --> 00:41:20.920
It's just awesome. Yeah it is. There's there's something magical about it,

537
00:41:21.000 --> 00:41:23.480
and there is also it's for us, for you and for I.

538
00:41:23.599 --> 00:41:28.239
The work that's getting done. It's
like it's not even it's not like our

539
00:41:28.280 --> 00:41:35.079
creativity, it's like them. We're
just helping them uncover and look at what

540
00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:38.840
exists already in there, and it
can really light teams up. So we've

541
00:41:38.840 --> 00:41:43.480
had a lot of long experiences with
clients that once they go through this kind

542
00:41:43.519 --> 00:41:47.519
of archetypal assessment, the archetypes are
so sticky, right, like they're like,

543
00:41:47.920 --> 00:41:53.440
oh, you know, people get
engaged around the story. Well,

544
00:41:53.559 --> 00:41:57.719
so, so it's interesting. I
did want you to tell maybe give us

545
00:41:57.760 --> 00:41:59.960
a case study or an example of
a company that you work with or who

546
00:42:00.039 --> 00:42:05.360
you helped to understand their archetypes.
But one thing online things being sticky.

547
00:42:05.440 --> 00:42:07.960
One of the things I found so
great about your website is that you show

548
00:42:08.400 --> 00:42:14.519
are you i should say, pair
and the archetype with certain known companies and

549
00:42:14.559 --> 00:42:17.519
if I have this right for memory. I believe Nikes is hero like me.

550
00:42:17.639 --> 00:42:22.360
Is that right? Yeah? We
would call Nike hero type of archetype

551
00:42:22.559 --> 00:42:27.599
because it's inspiring and it's it's a
genetic right, And I would. I

552
00:42:27.599 --> 00:42:30.360
mean, there's lots of reasons,
you know that we could go into,

553
00:42:30.440 --> 00:42:34.679
both in terms of their internal culture
and in terms of how they have branded

554
00:42:34.840 --> 00:42:37.239
their organization. But I would,
you know, just what are the three

555
00:42:37.239 --> 00:42:40.320
words that come to mind when you
think of Nike? Just do it,

556
00:42:40.559 --> 00:42:44.599
Just do it. That's a hero
energy, right, just do it,

557
00:42:44.880 --> 00:42:46.960
just do it right? And so
it doesn't have to be about sneakers and

558
00:42:47.079 --> 00:42:52.800
athletic where it's it's more about the
feeling. What does it feel like when

559
00:42:52.840 --> 00:42:54.239
I step into that energy? I
love it. I love it. Of

560
00:42:54.239 --> 00:42:58.000
course I relate to this because one, I am from Oregon like Nike.

561
00:42:58.239 --> 00:43:00.760
Okay, I am a run I
do run in Nike shoes. Thank you

562
00:43:00.840 --> 00:43:05.719
Nike. But anyway, I just
thought that's a great thing to illustrate a

563
00:43:05.760 --> 00:43:08.760
little bit of stickiness that you're talking
about. So that in mind, then

564
00:43:08.800 --> 00:43:13.280
Synthia, would you share an example
or a case study of an organization you

565
00:43:13.320 --> 00:43:15.400
work with, whether or not you
want to use their real name or their

566
00:43:15.440 --> 00:43:17.599
identity, but yeah, I'd be
happy to and I mean I'm going to

567
00:43:17.760 --> 00:43:22.559
use actually a real name. There
was a company based in Colorado where I

568
00:43:22.599 --> 00:43:28.960
am and the name of the company
was DSc, which if doesn't mean anything

569
00:43:28.960 --> 00:43:31.920
to anybody, but that's another long
story. They worked in the area of

570
00:43:32.159 --> 00:43:38.559
destination services. I mean they were
meeting planners that would bring big groups into

571
00:43:38.599 --> 00:43:43.719
Colorado and they would design the whole
experience from when they picked him up at

572
00:43:43.719 --> 00:43:47.159
the airport till you know, the
dinners, the shows, everything they did

573
00:43:47.199 --> 00:43:54.000
to kind of reward and recognize their
corporate clients that came in and DSc brought

574
00:43:54.119 --> 00:44:00.400
us in ten years ago to do
some work around their culture and their brand,

575
00:44:01.039 --> 00:44:07.960
and through an archetypal analysis, they
landed on just two two core stories

576
00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:12.480
that really felt the most like them, and that was the Hero and it

577
00:44:12.639 --> 00:44:17.360
was also the Sage. It was
the combination of those two. So initially

578
00:44:17.400 --> 00:44:22.719
what we did with that profile is
we created a brand around it. We

579
00:44:22.760 --> 00:44:30.960
created like their tagline, DSc,
we mastermind your Experience. We combine know

580
00:44:30.239 --> 00:44:37.360
how Sage with can do Hero Like. We got really deliberate about how we

581
00:44:37.480 --> 00:44:40.400
language things. We listened to all
of their stories, all of their company

582
00:44:40.559 --> 00:44:45.760
lore, their traditions, etc.
And we started to see like how they

583
00:44:45.800 --> 00:44:52.079
acted and behaved and rewarded hero and
sage type of behavior and how key it

584
00:44:52.199 --> 00:44:57.880
was into delivering the experiences that they
built for their clients. Their growth strategy

585
00:44:58.079 --> 00:45:01.920
was to acquire similar firm outside of
Colorado. So over the time we worked

586
00:45:01.920 --> 00:45:05.840
with them, they went out and
they got some companies in Utah and Yo,

587
00:45:05.960 --> 00:45:09.440
Maine and Nevada, and they started
having a bigger footprint account across the

588
00:45:09.440 --> 00:45:14.320
West. So now they're merging cultures, right, what do we know about

589
00:45:14.360 --> 00:45:17.400
mergers? There is a real sticky
thing. It's a hard thing to deal

590
00:45:17.440 --> 00:45:22.239
with. And so they were able
to use that understanding, that definition of

591
00:45:22.360 --> 00:45:28.679
who we are and what we value
and what we stand for to bring new

592
00:45:28.760 --> 00:45:34.039
cultures in and so they would run
entire meetings like you know, engagement experiences

593
00:45:34.079 --> 00:45:38.280
with the team with the new team
about their hero sage culture, and in

594
00:45:38.320 --> 00:45:43.679
that way they were able to kind
of indoctrinated. Fast forward one more time

595
00:45:43.880 --> 00:45:47.960
and they were actually acquired by a
larger firm that was rolling up companies,

596
00:45:49.400 --> 00:45:52.760
and the CEO of DSc said to
me, you know, they've invited me

597
00:45:52.800 --> 00:45:55.679
to come in. They want me
to come in and do what I did

598
00:45:55.760 --> 00:46:00.440
at DSc, And she's like trying
to She's like, what I didn't realize

599
00:46:00.960 --> 00:46:06.559
is that what we did with hero
Stages we actually built a culture. We

600
00:46:06.679 --> 00:46:12.239
took that identity and those ideas and
how they resonated with us, and we

601
00:46:12.480 --> 00:46:15.840
built on it over and over again
to the point where people knew, this

602
00:46:15.960 --> 00:46:20.480
is who we are and this is
our culture. So that's what you would

603
00:46:20.519 --> 00:46:24.000
describe it as is we actually built
a culture that's so exciting. Oh isn't

604
00:46:24.039 --> 00:46:27.280
it just amazing to get to do
this kind of work. That's just that's

605
00:46:27.280 --> 00:46:30.320
awesome. Well, we're coming close
to the to the end of the program

606
00:46:30.320 --> 00:46:35.280
already, but if you can just
can you speak just briefly to you know,

607
00:46:35.519 --> 00:46:37.320
like the bottom line? What are
the results? And when we talk

608
00:46:37.360 --> 00:46:39.480
about this seems like you know,
the work that you do and work that

609
00:46:39.519 --> 00:46:43.639
I can be a little bit squishy
to people who don't understand it. So

610
00:46:43.840 --> 00:46:47.920
how want to quantify the bottom line
results of your work? I love even

611
00:46:49.000 --> 00:46:53.360
the question, right, because quantify
and then right, we're definitely a data

612
00:46:53.480 --> 00:46:59.760
driven kind of society. So I
will go and and it work productivity and

613
00:46:59.800 --> 00:47:04.079
thing and results and proof and ROI
those things are important. They're very important

614
00:47:04.079 --> 00:47:07.400
to decision makers. So I'll go
back. You know, I tend to

615
00:47:07.440 --> 00:47:10.559
think of the soft stuff as the
hard stuff, like it is the hard

616
00:47:10.639 --> 00:47:15.000
stuff. And and I'll go back
to what I said at the beginning,

617
00:47:15.119 --> 00:47:19.400
like, you know, we're who
I am and how I should. My

618
00:47:19.559 --> 00:47:24.679
state of being in any moment is
contagious, and that is starting to inform

619
00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:32.400
your culture. So before we're numbers, before we're statistics, we are human

620
00:47:32.440 --> 00:47:38.480
beings. And I think archetypes as
a framework recognizes that we are human first,

621
00:47:39.360 --> 00:47:44.079
and that if we can connect around
some of those shared storylines for which

622
00:47:44.159 --> 00:47:49.920
our brains are actually wired, it
makes for a workplace that's a lot you

623
00:47:49.960 --> 00:47:54.079
know, has a lot more potential. Beautifully said. So we're at at

624
00:47:54.079 --> 00:47:57.119
the close of the show, and
I'll have to give you the last word

625
00:47:57.159 --> 00:47:59.679
if we will. So you know
that the shows unto it by people across

626
00:47:59.679 --> 00:48:02.280
the globe open. It's all what
helped to steward the conversation around meaningful workplaces

627
00:48:02.280 --> 00:48:07.719
and cultures and inspirational leadership and conscious
capitalism. What would you like to leave

628
00:48:07.800 --> 00:48:12.639
listens with and say about thirty seconds. Well, if you're curious about your

629
00:48:12.679 --> 00:48:16.639
own archtypes or how you're showing up, we have an assessment on our website

630
00:48:17.079 --> 00:48:23.199
for individuals. If you're curious about
bringing this work into organizations or leadership teams

631
00:48:23.239 --> 00:48:28.119
that you're coaching, consulting your training, we do have a certification program.

632
00:48:28.400 --> 00:48:32.519
We actually just today this afternoon launched
our final one for twenty twenty. But

633
00:48:32.559 --> 00:48:36.519
if you're interested in learning more about
that, just put your name on our

634
00:48:36.559 --> 00:48:39.199
email list, which you'll see a
form for at culture talk dot com.

635
00:48:40.400 --> 00:48:43.719
Synthea, thank you so much for
joining me. I love the work that

636
00:48:43.760 --> 00:48:45.920
you're doing and I feel elevated by
learning more about it. So thank you

637
00:48:45.920 --> 00:48:50.519
for joining me and sharing sharing what
you're doing with our listeners and our viewers.

638
00:48:50.800 --> 00:48:53.199
Yeah, thank you. Really beautiful
to be with you, very very

639
00:48:53.199 --> 00:48:57.119
welcome, and listeners and viewers you
heard or say, do you want to

640
00:48:57.199 --> 00:49:00.519
learn more about Cynthiaforceman or the work
sheen your team we're doing at culture Visit

641
00:49:00.559 --> 00:49:04.239
their website. It is culture talk
dot com. Last week, if you

642
00:49:04.280 --> 00:49:06.679
missed the live show, you can
always get to be a recorded podcast.

643
00:49:06.800 --> 00:49:09.880
We were on the air with Thiebol
Songavi of Dazra in Mumbai, India,

644
00:49:09.960 --> 00:49:15.239
to learning about his strategic philanthropy organization
out to uplift the lives of one billion

645
00:49:15.440 --> 00:49:20.159
Indians. Incredibly inspiring with this man
and his team are up to and it's

646
00:49:20.199 --> 00:49:23.159
amazing what we can do High on
purpose and passion amazing. Next week,

647
00:49:23.159 --> 00:49:27.920
we'll be on the air with Joshua
Spodek talking about his latest book called Initiative,

648
00:49:28.000 --> 00:49:30.199
a proven method to bring your passions
to life and work. See you

649
00:49:30.280 --> 00:49:32.679
there. Remember the organs at least
a third of our lives, So let's

650
00:49:32.679 --> 00:49:42.400
work on purpose. We hope you've
enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to

651
00:49:42.440 --> 00:49:46.440
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your
host, doctor Elise Cortez, each week

652
00:49:46.519 --> 00:49:52.800
on the Voice America Empowerment Channel.
Together, we'll create a world where business

653
00:49:52.840 --> 00:49:59.800
operates conscientiously. Leadership inspires impassion,
performance, and employees are fulfilled in work.

654
00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:04.480
It provides the meaning and purpose they
crave. See you there, Let's

655
00:50:04.599 --> 00:50:05.599
work on Purpose.