Jan. 13, 2026

Upgrading the Leader Within: Why Your Vertical Development is Everything

Upgrading the Leader Within: Why Your Vertical Development is Everything
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Most leadership programs fail to deliver results because they focus on what leaders know and do. Vertical development is effective because it focuses on who leaders are becoming. Rather than downloading more skills, it elevates a leader’s mindset and ability to make sense of complexity with greater emotional and cognitive sophistication. Leaders can transform their organizations by evolving their inner meaning-making system, enabling them to lead with greater depth, wisdom, and effectiveness.

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WEBVTT

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The topics and opinions express in the following show are

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solely those of the hosts and their guests and not

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CY Radio or it's employees are affiliates. Any questions or

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What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the

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answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose

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at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their

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lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization

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that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their

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highest potential. Business can be such a force for good

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in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide

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guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we

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all want working on Purpose. Now, here's your host, doctor

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Elise Cortez.

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Welcome back to the Working and Purpose Program, which has

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been brought to you with passion and pride since February

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of twenty fifteen. Already, thanks for tuning in this week.

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Great to have you. I'm your host, Doctor Release Cortes.

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If we have not met before, you don't know me.

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I'm a workforce advisor, organizational psychologist to manage, a consultant,

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speaker and author, and my team and I at Gusta

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Now help companies to enliven and fortify their operations by

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building a dynamic, high performance culture, inspirational leadership, and nurturing

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managers activated by meaning and purpose. You learn more about

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us and how we can work together at gusto dashnow

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dot com or my personal site at least Coortes dot

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com if you're just tuning into the program we have

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with us today. Doctor Ryan Godfredson he is a cutting

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edge leadership development author, researcher and consultant. He helps organizations

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vertically develop their leaders primarily through a focus on mindsets

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to elevate the organization and culture. He is the author

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of the Elevated Leader, Leveling Up Your Leadership through Vertical Development,

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another book out as well, and other things that have

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he's been working on since. But today we'll be talking

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about the difference between horizontal development and vertical development in

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leadership development and how leaders and their organizations elevate true

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vertical development. He joined you today from Orange County, California.

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Ryan A Hearty, Welcome to Working on Purpose.

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Hey, thanks for having me. And I love this concept

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of working on purpose and here's why, and we'll get

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into the details. But I've spent the last fifteen sixteen

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years doing both academic and applied research to study what

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makes great leaders great and leaders operate at different levels

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of sophistication. And what I've learned is that the most

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sophisticated leaders all have a purpose and it's a purpose

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that is connected to something bigger than themselves, and it's

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about creating value to their primary stakeholders.

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So I'm so fortunate to be on the show.

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Thank you for having me, and I'm excited to help

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leaders better or work on purpose.

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Well, Ryan, you and I are so crazy aligned, it's crazy.

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It's just I devoured your books. As I told you,

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I know you've written a few, and as you mentioned

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to me before we got on air, you've of course

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your your thoughts continue to advance so much. Goal though,

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just to be able to harvest out of this one

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the elevated leaders. So I do want to definitely give

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our listeners and viewers some good nuggets from that, and

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we can also talk a little bit about some of

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the other things that you've been working on too. But

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I want to just really start with this idea here.

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You know, you and I of course have been doing

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this work together for some time, where you know, we're

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working with organizations, but many leaders, you know, they're doing

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just fine, you know, running their organizations. Everything's good, and

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so they don't think that they need any help or

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any development. So can you talk a little bit about

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kind of what that missing is, that sort of ignorance

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that comes with that stance, if you will, Yeah, let.

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Me use a metaphor if that's okay, And in the metaphor,

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this is going to make a lot of sense if

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you've ever driven manual transmission of a vehicle. So we've

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got a manual transmission vehicle. We got five gears. So

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what I've learned is that most leaders operate in fourth gear.

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In fact, research suggests that eighty five percent of leaders

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operate in fourth gear. Now, what's fourth gear? Fourth gear

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is a really great place to be because in fourth

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gear you can go really fast and you can get

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a lot done. But at the same time, when we're

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operating in fourth gear going really fast, we're going at

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really high RPMs and you could feel the speed. And

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what I've learned is that most leaders are in this place.

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They're going fast, they're pushing hard, going at high RPMs,

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and they almost their bodies almost get addicted to that

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feeling of speed because to their bodies, feeling speed feels

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like progress. And so this is where most leaders operate.

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But what I've and they know that this is a

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good place to be because of it's better than third gear,

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it's better than second gear, and it's better than first gear.

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So these are advanced leaders, but what they oftentimes don't

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recognize is that there is a fifth gear. And the

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great thing about getting into fifth gear is if we

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could get into fifth gear, then what ends up happening

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is we could actually go faster and at lower RPMs.

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And that's the beauty of fifth gear.

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And what research has found is that only eight percent

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of executives get there. And so I kind of feel

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like it's my purpose, my mission to help leaders awaken

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to what fourth gear leadership is and then help them

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to shift gears and get into fifth gear.

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You know, I love that, and I love how you

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talk about it on your LinkedIn profile too, because it's

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so crisp. And you know what I think is beautiful

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because you do say that only eight percent of leaders

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really get there, and to me, that represents such an

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opportunity for everyone, you know, for us to be able

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to help and serve, and for leaders to recognize that

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we can get to fifth gear. So I think that's

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really exciting. And the other thing that you talk about

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in your book that I think is important is that

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when leaders aren't actively working on elevating their mindsets and

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their operating system like you talk about in your book,

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they're already operating at a leadership deficit in today's incredibly

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fast moving, you know, crazy high pressure moving environment. And

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I think that's really important to point out. If you're

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not working on this, you are being left behind.

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Well. Yeah, I think one of the ways to think

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about it is as we shift into the higher gears,

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so as we go from first to second, second to third, right,

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as we just move our way up, we become a

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more complex being. Yeah, And that's one of the benefits

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of that, And the more complex we are, the greater

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are complex our ability to navigate complexity, right, And so

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what we've seen over the last really, let's let's just say,

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in the last seven years, we have seen complexity of

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our world go up and up and up and up.

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And so the question that we've got to ask ourselves

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is as our personal complexity followed the pace of the

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rising complexity of our environment around us, and for most leaders, unfortunately,

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they have it at least to the degree that it

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needs to. And so as the complexity of our world, like,

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if our complexity exceeds our environmental complexity, we can navigate

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that world really well, we're going to be successful.

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But if the complexity of our world starts.

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To exceed our complexity, then we start to feel like

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we're in over our heads. We start to experience burnout.

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And that's what I'm seeing from the executives that I

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work with, and they just don't recognize that at the

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root of the issue is this dynamic between their personal

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complexity and the complexity in the world around them. And

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let's just face it, the complexity of our world is

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unlikely to decrease, so really our only option is to

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elevate ourselves and if we can do that, then we

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could better navigate the complexity in the world around us.

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Yeah, and I do want to talk more about, you know,

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kind of how do you recognize that we actually might

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need some help as a leader, and you talk about George,

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the guy that you worked for some time ago. I

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do want to get into that at some point because

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I want our listeners and viewers to start to recognize, Oh,

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that kind of sounds like me. I do that there's

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something wrong with that. I could do better than that.

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But I do want to let's situate the idea of

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you distinguishing horizontal leadership development and vertical And I hadn't

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really ever heard those terms, although I have a very

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steep background in developmental psychology too like you do, and

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I hadn't heard those terms.

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Yeah, these terms are fairly new, at least the vertical

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development term, So that term was coined about thirteen years ago.

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It's growing in terms of it being.

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Well known or more well known. But the basic concept

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is is that we can develop in two different ways,

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and one of these ways, I'm going to call it

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the horizontal development path, is what most people take. And

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we are all familiar with it because it's what our

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education system runs on, it's what our athletic programs run on,

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and it's what our organizational development runs on. And so

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we are familiar there and I'll describe it here in

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just a second. But there's another path, and that's the

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vertical development path. And if people could step onto this path,

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what they're going to find is that this is a

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path that is transformational. Horizontal development is good, there's nothing

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wrong with it, but it can only be incrementally helpful.

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Vertical development is transformational and here's why. So horizontal development

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is improving our talent, our knowledge, and our skills. It's

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kind of like adding tools to our tool belt, right,

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there's nothing wrong with adding tools to our tool belt.

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In fact, we need to do that, and that's what

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our schools are designed to do. That's where our athletics

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programs are designed to do, and organizational development. But at

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the end of the day, our effectiveness is not based

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on the tools and our tool belt, but our capacity

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to leverage the tools in our tool belt. And that's

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what vertical development is all about. Upgrading the person wearing

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the tool belt so that they have a greater capacity

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to employ the tools let me give you a quick

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example if that's okay, bet So, here's what I believe

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I've learned is that almost all leaders know how to listen.

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They have the knowledge on how to do so, and

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they have the skills to do so because they have

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done so in the past.

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But what I find is that a.

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Lot of leaders struggle to listen when they are feeling rushed,

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stressed out, and pressured.

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And so we know how to.

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Listen, but most leaders aren't able to employ that tool

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because they aren't vertically developed enough to be able to

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employ that tool in those high pressure situations. And so

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when we do vertical development work, what we're doing is

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we're upgrading our bodies internal operating system, literally our nervous system,

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so that we could better navigate the change, stress, pressure, uncertainty,

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and complexity in the world around us.

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And I love how you distinguished and you say the

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way that we do that is we're elevating operating system,

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specifically by increasing the sophistication of our emotional and our

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cognitive capacities. I think that's really compelling to understand that.

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You know, that's how you isolate that that's what we're

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upgrading and elevating and I love how and that's the

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first and we're in the two belt. So I think

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it's helpful. And I did take your assessment as well

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if we could. I know what you've done, Ran is

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you've gone through and looked at all these different other

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developmental models and they have anywhere from three to twelve

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stages of development. You have been able to isolate really

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a three stage mind one, Mind two, and mind three

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point zero. For our listeners and viewers who have read

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your book like I have, can you just distinguish those

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three levels for us and kind of who they are

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and what's going on in those levels.

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Yeah.

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So where these ideas and these stages come from is

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from the field of adult development psychology. So adult development

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psychologists have learned that in adulthood we can develop and

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there's different adult development stages. Now, the number of stages

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that are out there is contingent upon the thought leader

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who kind of designed a model. And so to your

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point is, I've seen thought leaders with three adult development stages,

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and I've seen it up to twelve, but at the

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end of the day they all collapse onto three base

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adult development stages.

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Now, what's interesting about this is.

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For the longest time, adult development psychology or developmental psychologists

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assumed that we stop developing an adulthood. But that's not

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the case. We do have these different stages. But what's

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really interesting about their research is that while there are

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three base adult development stages, they find that most adults

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never develop in adulthood. So there are three stages, but

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sixty four percent stay at that base level what I

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call as you labeled mind one point zero, and then

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we have mind two point oh, thirty five percent of

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all adults get there, and then only one percent gets

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to that mind three point zero level. And that's you know,

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so once you have a framework like that, then it

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becomes easy to say, oh, well where am I at?

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What level do I operate at? And it really opens

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the door for a deep level of introspection awakening, and

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if we so choose to do so, I think it

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really can empower us to level up ourselves.

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Yeah, and I just to kind of quickly share a

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little bit about that. I mean, your you know, level

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one is really focused. Their needs are about safety, comfortable,

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and belonging. And I have seen that in some of

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the managers that I've worked with. I've seen that standard

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the radar kind of thing, and so they tend to

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be people pleasers or or controlling those two things. And

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I wonder if George that the person you had before

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that you worked before, would be an example of a

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Mind one point zero leader. Was that writer? Is he

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close to?

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Yeah? Sometimes they just show up differently depending on it's

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really we're connecting into their motives. And so one of

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the things that I want to bring up, and why

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I label it Mind one point oh two point oh

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three point zero, is our bodies at each of these

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levels are programmed to fulfill different needs.

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And we shift from one level to another, there's a

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shift in these.

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Needs, there's an upgrade. So to your point and Mind

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one point oh, our bodies are wired to be safe, comfortable,

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and feel like we belong. We kind of want to stay,

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you know, we don't want to rock the boat, but

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we want to create some structure. We want to do

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good things. But the motive foundational motives is I don't

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want to cause any problems. And let's point out something

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like if that's our focus, where is our focus? It's

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on me. I don't want to cause any problems, and

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so I do reference a manager in my book named George.

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George is a leader that I used to have, and

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he was kind of the stereotypical authoritative, micromanaging leader. And

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I have seen these leaders. These types of leaders operate

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from a mind one point oh level because they micro manage,

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because they want to make sure nothing goes wrong on

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their watch. Yeah right. In this case with George, I

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think that George is more of a mind two point

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oh leader. So at min two point zero, our bodies

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aren't wired for safety, comfort and belonging. In fact, they're

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wired to stand out, advance, and get ahead. And we

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know that we've leveled up here because now we're willing

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to be unsafe, uncomfortable, and not belong in order to

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stand out, advance, and get ahead. So we move from

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this mentality of as a leader, I don't want anything

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to go wrong to now I want to be seen

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as the best. And this is actually the fourth gear

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that I mentioned earlier, is this mind two point level.

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So I actually think George and in this instance, his

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motives seemed to come from a place of his authority,

302
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need for authority, need for control, micromanaging was because he

303
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wanted to be seen as the best. He wanted you know,

304
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if if me as a subordinate was successful, he would

305
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take the credit for it, so other people would see

306
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him as as a success. And so that's the mind

307
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two point zero level. So I don't know if you

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want to slow down at all and go I want

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to more about the first two level.

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There's so many let's just quickly hit three point zer

311
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because we're going to grab our brake after that. So

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talk to us about three point because that's what you

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and I are out to develop, help our leaders grow into.

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Yeah. Perfect, So the my one point ohd level again,

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we're wired to stand in. Now the mind two point

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oh level we're wired to stand out, and mind three

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point zero we're not wired to stand in and we're

318
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not wired to stand out. So what are we wired?

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We're wired to contribute, add value and lift others.

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And this is why purpose is so important, is that

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we need to have a purpose to get us into

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that frame of mind of and for our body to

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now be wired to contribute, add value and lift others.

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That should be driven by a purpose that's bigger than ourselves.

325
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And so not only do our needs change as we

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go from bottom to top, if you will, but our

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complexity of thinking changes. At mine one point zero, we're

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an independent thinker. You tell me what to do and

329
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I will go and do it. And mine two point zero,

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we're an independent.

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Thinker, so I and then independent Yes it's.

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Yeah, So dependent thinker is mine one point zero. Okay,

333
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independent thinker is mine two point zero. I've got my

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own ideas and I want to run with them, so

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I could be recognized. At mind three point zero, we

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are now an interdependent thinker. Right, we recognize, yeah, I

337
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have some good ideas, but they're not the only good ideas,

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and that collectively we could come up with great ideas. Also,

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those at the lower levels tend to be more short

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term oriented, focused on standing in right now or standing

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out right now, whereas those that mind three point zero

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are now focused on a longer term purpose.

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Beautiful Ran, it's just so exciting for our listeners of

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viewers to start to recognize, oh, there's more for me.

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I can do more. As you say, only three percent

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of executives are in that.

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Eight percent or in that mind sort, yes.

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And so much true for us to be able to

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help the lift. So on that notelet let our listeners

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and viewers reflect on those three levels or they might be.

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And take our first break. I'm Alice Cortez, your host.

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We've go on air with Ryan Godfredson, who is a

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cutting edge leadership development author, researcher, and consultant. He helps

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organizations vertically develop their leaders, primarily through a focus on

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mindsets to elevate the organization and culture. We've been talking

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about the difference between vertical and horizontal development. After the break,

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we're going to dive into how we can start to

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take the journey into vertical development. We'll be right back.

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Doctor Elise Cortez is a management consultant specializing in meaning

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and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author. She helps companies

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visioneer for a greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose

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inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance,

363
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and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to

364
00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:03.039
invite Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her

365
00:20:03.079 --> 00:20:06.319
at Elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get

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00:20:06.359 --> 00:20:15.160
your employees working on purpose. This is working on purpose

367
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with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or

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00:20:18.559 --> 00:20:21.319
to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to

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Alise A LISEE at Eliscortes dot com. Now back to

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working on Purpose.

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Thanks for stting with us and welcome back to working

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on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes, as I too,

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am a dedicated to help and create a world where

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organizations thrive because the people thriede. They are also led

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by inspirational leaders that help them find to contribute their

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greatness and we do business the better in the world.

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I keep researching and writing my own books. So one

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of my latest came out. It's called The Great Revitalization.

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How activating meaning and purpose can radically enliven your business.

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And I wanted to help leaders understand today's workforce. So

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what do they want to need to stay with you

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and give their best? Then I provided you twenty two

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best practices to equip your culture to be able to

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provide that for them. You can find my books on

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Amazon or my personal site at least quotes dot com

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if you are just to at uce. My guest is

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Ryan Gonfordson. He is the author of a few books.

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One of them is The Elevated Leader, leveling up your

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Leadership through Vertical Development. So before we get into a

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bit of how we can step into this world of

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vertical development, Ryan, I do want to do something for

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our listeners and viewers, and that's to help kind of

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bring to life what might a level two and a

394
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level three leader look like. So you do a beautiful

395
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job in your book of really helping us compare the

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worlds of Microsoft when Steve Malmer was the CEO and

397
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really performed more on that level two point zero, and that,

398
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of course Satndela, who has done an incredible job at

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turning the organization around it has been performing at a

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level three point zero. So can you kind of bring

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those two leaders to life so our listeners and viewers

402
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understand just the opportunity of this three point zero beckoning

403
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we're talking about.

404
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:03.880
Yeah, And I think even as we get into these examples,

405
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what I've learned is that the vertical altitude of.

406
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A leader sets the ceiling for.

407
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The effectiveness of the organization. It is almost impossible for

408
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an organization to operate at a more sophisticated level than

409
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the leader. And so you know, when we compare and

410
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contrast leaders in this case Steve Balmer to Satching Nadella,

411
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one of the things that I would say, and I

412
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think the evidence is there. It's not to say that

413
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Steve Ballmer is a bad person. He's just not as

414
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sophisticated as a leader as sach A Nedella. And we

415
00:22:38.279 --> 00:22:40.799
could kind of look at the success of Microsoft under

416
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their tenures and see that that's very much the case.

417
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You know, the effect that Steve.

418
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Balmer had was very minimal.

419
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Microsoft States stagnant really throughout his tenure. But since Thatching

420
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Nadella has taken over, it's been almost a hockey stick

421
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curve upwards in terms of their success and impact on

422
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the world.

423
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And so what are some.

424
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Of the signs and signals that we'll find from the

425
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leaders at these different levels. So one of the things

426
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is interesting is when you take Steve Balmer, and you

427
00:23:12.200 --> 00:23:16.960
could YouTube this YouTube Steve Balmer on stage all right.

428
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When he would get on stage, it was like a

429
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rock concert. He would get up loud music, he'd be

430
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dancing around out of breath, and then in the YouTube

431
00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:29.759
video you could goy and hear him as he's dancing around,

432
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throw his arms in the air and he says, give

433
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it up.

434
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For me, And so it's kind of a see me.

435
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Now when Sachi Nandella gets on stage it's a very

436
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different approach. It's almost like he's kind of subdued. Now

437
00:23:46.759 --> 00:23:51.319
that's a little bit extreme, but it's it's kind of level.

438
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But he's speaking with intention, and whenever he's speaking in

439
00:23:56.119 --> 00:24:00.799
a meaningful way, he's connecting back to purpose. And so

440
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he sees getting on stage as an opportunity to clarify

441
00:24:05.759 --> 00:24:09.599
and unite through purpose. And so that's one of the

442
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big big differences. Right. So mine two point zero leaders

443
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tend to focus on results. My three point zero focuses

444
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on purpose. So I would say results and ourselves. My

445
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three point zero is purpose and something bigger than ourselves.

446
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So that's that's one signal, you know. Another signal in

447
00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:32.720
this case was Steve Balmer was famous for saying my

448
00:24:32.839 --> 00:24:38.240
kids will never use an Apple product. But Satcha Adella's

449
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first public speech, in his first public speech at a conference,

450
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he pulled an iPhone out of his pocket. And so

451
00:24:46.480 --> 00:24:49.519
in Steve Baumer's mind, it was about competition, We've got

452
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a win, And in satche Adella's mind, it's not about

453
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win or lose, it's how can we create value for

454
00:24:56.599 --> 00:25:00.960
our stakeholders? Right, Because if we can integrate Microsoft products

455
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with Apple phones, and computers. Look, we're going to rapidly

456
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expand our customer base. And so that was a big

457
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shift early on in sache Nadella's tenure that that was

458
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really valuable. And so that's another signal. And I think

459
00:25:16.599 --> 00:25:22.319
another signal is Steve Ballmer didn't really focus on culture.

460
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Evidence of that is he instituted stacked rank performance management systems.

461
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In his mind, it was get help them to identify

462
00:25:29.799 --> 00:25:32.200
the people who stand out, right, that's not mind two

463
00:25:32.200 --> 00:25:33.119
point on mentality.

464
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And when satchan Adella came in, he took out the.

465
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Stack rank performance management system And in his book Hit Refresh,

466
00:25:40.839 --> 00:25:44.880
he says the c in CEO stands for curator of culture.

467
00:25:46.160 --> 00:25:48.400
And so what he sees at this mind three point

468
00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:51.119
old leader again a more interdependent thinker, He sees the

469
00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:56.000
systems that go into outcomes. Steve Ballmer focused on the outcomes.

470
00:25:56.480 --> 00:26:00.759
Satchanandilla focused on the systems like culture, and he knew

471
00:26:00.799 --> 00:26:03.839
if we can get the systems right, the outcomes will

472
00:26:03.880 --> 00:26:06.319
take care of themselves, and that's what's been need. So

473
00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:08.759
those are some different signs or signals that I think

474
00:26:08.759 --> 00:26:12.799
those provide. Those two individuals provide a good contrast to

475
00:26:12.880 --> 00:26:16.559
kind of explain the difference between mine two point zero

476
00:26:16.640 --> 00:26:18.240
and mind three point all leaders.

477
00:26:18.240 --> 00:26:20.119
Excellent, Ryan, That's just what I want to thank you

478
00:26:20.640 --> 00:26:22.440
so for this next bit here. I just want to

479
00:26:22.480 --> 00:26:24.400
dive in a bit to help our listeners and viewers

480
00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:26.960
understand how they might start this process. You know, I

481
00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:30.480
know you do a lot of work with organizations diving

482
00:26:30.519 --> 00:26:33.279
deep into into vertical development. But let's just kind of

483
00:26:33.279 --> 00:26:35.880
give our listeners and viewers sort of taste. I know

484
00:26:36.039 --> 00:26:37.920
we're going to talk about mindsets and how they're formed,

485
00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:40.160
of course, and why that's important, But where do you

486
00:26:40.200 --> 00:26:43.160
want to go to help our listeners understand how to

487
00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:45.039
start diving into vertical development?

488
00:26:45.400 --> 00:26:49.519
Yeah? Great, So again, we are really familiar with horizontal

489
00:26:49.559 --> 00:26:53.319
development and vertical development. I'm not going to say it's

490
00:26:53.759 --> 00:26:56.599
any more difficult or any more easy, but it is

491
00:26:56.640 --> 00:27:00.200
going to be different than what we're used to. One

492
00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:01.880
of the ways that I've come to think about this

493
00:27:02.599 --> 00:27:08.000
is at a foundational level, vertical development is about upgrading

494
00:27:08.119 --> 00:27:12.559
our body's internal operating system, literally our nervous system. And

495
00:27:12.640 --> 00:27:15.799
so if to know if it's vertical development work, is

496
00:27:16.119 --> 00:27:20.480
it improving our bodies regulation? Because and maybe I should

497
00:27:20.480 --> 00:27:23.720
have said this earlier. When we're lower on the lower levels,

498
00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:27.440
like bottom line one point zero, we our bodies are

499
00:27:27.480 --> 00:27:31.119
more reactive. Is that we are more easily triggered.

500
00:27:31.279 --> 00:27:32.400
As we move up to.

501
00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:35.480
The higher levels, we're less we have a wider window

502
00:27:35.519 --> 00:27:38.119
of tolerance, we're less likely to be triggered, and we

503
00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:40.920
could stay more calm and composed. That's one of the

504
00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:44.799
reasons why we could navigate complexity at a higher level.

505
00:27:45.400 --> 00:27:50.759
And so I think about vertical development work as occurring

506
00:27:51.200 --> 00:27:56.599
at potentially three different levels, surface level, deeper level, and

507
00:27:56.680 --> 00:28:03.799
deepest level. So surface level tactics are things like meditation, journaling, yoga,

508
00:28:03.880 --> 00:28:09.079
gratitude journaling, even cold plunging can be surface level vertical

509
00:28:09.079 --> 00:28:12.920
development efforts because what these activities do is they help

510
00:28:13.000 --> 00:28:17.680
us learn how to better regulate our body and our

511
00:28:18.039 --> 00:28:21.200
so and it refines our body's nervous system. So I

512
00:28:21.240 --> 00:28:24.519
say that that surface level because it's something every everybody

513
00:28:24.559 --> 00:28:29.640
can do and it kind of globally helps us improve ourselves.

514
00:28:30.799 --> 00:28:33.720
The next level if we want to get deeper, and

515
00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:36.200
this is the space that I play largely when I

516
00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:39.880
work with organizations, is we want to become aware of

517
00:28:40.039 --> 00:28:45.119
the programming baked into our internal operating system. So for me,

518
00:28:45.319 --> 00:28:50.680
I focus on mindsets. I help leaders and employees awaken

519
00:28:51.279 --> 00:28:53.960
to the wiring involved in their mindset. So, for example,

520
00:28:54.359 --> 00:28:58.039
how do you see failure something to avoid or an

521
00:28:58.039 --> 00:29:02.000
opportunity to learn and grow? Right, And we could connect

522
00:29:02.039 --> 00:29:04.839
into our bodies programming through a focus on mindsets.

523
00:29:06.079 --> 00:29:06.680
So that's the.

524
00:29:06.680 --> 00:29:11.720
Deeper level, but there's still deeper levels. At the deepest level,

525
00:29:12.039 --> 00:29:17.079
we generally need some form of professional support. Usually this

526
00:29:17.200 --> 00:29:20.960
comes in some form of therapy. You could think trauma therapy,

527
00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:24.960
neural feedback therapy, even I've kind of got my eyes

528
00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:29.079
on research connected to psychedelic assisted therapy and how that

529
00:29:29.160 --> 00:29:32.440
might help us heal and refine our body's nervous system.

530
00:29:32.599 --> 00:29:35.960
So you know, I'm not saying that's where we have

531
00:29:36.079 --> 00:29:39.720
to go, but I have learned that that's where.

532
00:29:40.480 --> 00:29:42.759
Many of us need to get into.

533
00:29:42.960 --> 00:29:45.480
If we really want to become the people that we

534
00:29:45.519 --> 00:29:48.880
want to become. So hopefully that just provides a taste

535
00:29:49.359 --> 00:29:53.359
of what vertical development looks like at different levels of depth.

536
00:29:53.880 --> 00:29:56.160
But happy to dive into greater depth on any of

537
00:29:56.200 --> 00:29:56.839
those if you'd like.

538
00:29:57.519 --> 00:30:00.880
Yeah, So first, let me just share listeners of viewer

539
00:30:00.920 --> 00:30:03.839
because I've devoured this book, as you know, I really

540
00:30:03.839 --> 00:30:06.079
appreciate that you talk about just the utility even of

541
00:30:06.119 --> 00:30:10.000
being able to have language around our mindsets and kind

542
00:30:10.039 --> 00:30:12.759
of how it is we're framing things. The other thing

543
00:30:12.759 --> 00:30:15.799
that I think is really incredibly useful and distinguished about

544
00:30:15.839 --> 00:30:19.039
your work, Ryan, is that you do call out the

545
00:30:19.240 --> 00:30:22.119
you know, the centrality of trauma. You know, for every

546
00:30:22.160 --> 00:30:23.519
one of us, for the most part, I have gone

547
00:30:23.519 --> 00:30:26.480
through some kind of trauma, and so many people are like,

548
00:30:26.519 --> 00:30:28.480
I don't. I don't have any fears, I don't nothing

549
00:30:28.559 --> 00:30:29.000
happened to me.

550
00:30:29.039 --> 00:30:29.480
I'm good.

551
00:30:29.799 --> 00:30:32.480
And yet what you talk about is the resistance to

552
00:30:32.640 --> 00:30:36.039
vertical development often indicates that there's probably something there to

553
00:30:36.119 --> 00:30:39.319
be able to heal and to address, and that you

554
00:30:39.319 --> 00:30:41.720
know most of us are benefit. And even just reading

555
00:30:41.720 --> 00:30:44.640
your book helped me Ryan get more present to Yeah,

556
00:30:44.680 --> 00:30:46.920
I did go through that. I can start to see

557
00:30:46.920 --> 00:30:50.160
how that would, how that changes how I, how I

558
00:30:50.200 --> 00:30:52.359
relate to people, how I let people in or don't

559
00:30:52.440 --> 00:30:54.799
let them in. So thank you for that gift. So

560
00:30:55.279 --> 00:30:57.599
I want to just go a little bit deeper because

561
00:30:57.640 --> 00:30:59.319
I think part of what you do in your work

562
00:30:59.400 --> 00:31:01.319
is you're helping to hold up that mirror, so people

563
00:31:01.359 --> 00:31:04.480
could start to recognize, you know, when they can't attune

564
00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:07.440
to their to their team because they're not connected to

565
00:31:07.480 --> 00:31:11.000
their body or their emotions anymore. That's part of the issue.

566
00:31:11.240 --> 00:31:12.920
So if you could say a little bit more about

567
00:31:12.960 --> 00:31:14.519
just you know, some of these things that would you

568
00:31:14.599 --> 00:31:17.319
start to notice when you're working with leaders that they

569
00:31:17.440 --> 00:31:19.880
resist or you recognize, or you've got three different ways

570
00:31:19.880 --> 00:31:22.119
that people tend to respond to you, if you could

571
00:31:22.119 --> 00:31:23.559
go into a little bit of detail on that.

572
00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:25.559
Yeah, let me give you an example.

573
00:31:26.039 --> 00:31:28.400
I was working with the CEO of an organization. He's

574
00:31:28.440 --> 00:31:31.759
a founder of the organization, and in the year prior

575
00:31:32.200 --> 00:31:34.000
to a year and a half prior to me working

576
00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:37.319
with the organization, the organization had grown from five hundred

577
00:31:37.480 --> 00:31:40.799
employees to one thousand, so they had doubled in terms

578
00:31:40.839 --> 00:31:45.440
of employee account and that's rather remarkable, right I in

579
00:31:45.480 --> 00:31:49.559
that span and time, So in some metrics, it was

580
00:31:49.559 --> 00:31:54.240
a successful organization. But what I came to learn is

581
00:31:54.279 --> 00:31:57.559
if you start to talk to the leaders in the organization,

582
00:31:58.079 --> 00:32:02.000
particularly his executive team, they were all burnt out and

583
00:32:02.160 --> 00:32:06.000
most were looking to exit. So while the metrics on

584
00:32:06.039 --> 00:32:09.200
the outside appeared pretty good, internally it felt like it

585
00:32:09.240 --> 00:32:11.839
was crumbling, and so that's kind of why I was

586
00:32:11.880 --> 00:32:16.000
brought in to help kind of stabilize the situation. And

587
00:32:16.079 --> 00:32:18.920
so in my first conversation with the CEO, I asked him,

588
00:32:19.160 --> 00:32:22.680
why did you start your business? And his answer was

589
00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:24.519
to prove others wrong.

590
00:32:25.319 --> 00:32:27.400
Oh yeah, yeah.

591
00:32:27.519 --> 00:32:30.079
It just struck me, like, you know, that's not I'm

592
00:32:30.119 --> 00:32:32.279
not going to say that's a terrible answer, but what

593
00:32:32.319 --> 00:32:35.519
it pointed to me is his motives are coming from

594
00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:38.720
a place of pain. He has been hurt somehow in

595
00:32:38.799 --> 00:32:44.319
the past professionally, and he has been driven and not

596
00:32:44.440 --> 00:32:49.279
to create value for others, but to help ensure that

597
00:32:49.400 --> 00:32:54.119
he feels of value. And when we operate from that

598
00:32:54.279 --> 00:32:57.359
place again, he was doing some really good things, but

599
00:32:57.480 --> 00:33:01.160
there was a wake of kind of collabal damage that

600
00:33:01.319 --> 00:33:04.920
was was falling out behind him, and it ultimately came

601
00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:09.559
from a place of hurt. And what I've learned is that, uh,

602
00:33:10.559 --> 00:33:12.279
I'm not going to say this is a blanket statement

603
00:33:12.319 --> 00:33:16.000
of all leaders who are struggling or kind of ineffective,

604
00:33:16.599 --> 00:33:19.920
which you know, statistics are that that's the majority of leaders.

605
00:33:21.480 --> 00:33:24.079
I'm not going to say that it's all because of trauma,

606
00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:28.720
but what I've learned is that hurt people have a

607
00:33:28.720 --> 00:33:33.240
hard time leading effectively. And one of the reasons why

608
00:33:33.279 --> 00:33:35.920
this is so meaningful to me, well, I'll give you

609
00:33:35.960 --> 00:33:38.559
a couple. One is I've had to awaken to my

610
00:33:38.640 --> 00:33:41.720
own trauma in my past, which I which previously I

611
00:33:41.839 --> 00:33:44.640
had not been aware of and ignored.

612
00:33:45.039 --> 00:33:47.480
And you talk about that books so beautifully, Ryan, It's beautiful.

613
00:33:47.559 --> 00:33:51.240
Ah, thank you. And and so I've had to do

614
00:33:51.319 --> 00:33:54.279
some of that healing work and that that's been transformational.

615
00:33:54.319 --> 00:33:57.880
And what I've learned through the journey is vertical development

616
00:33:58.079 --> 00:34:01.480
at its very core, right I talked earlier, it's about

617
00:34:01.559 --> 00:34:04.480
improving our body's nervous system. But let me take it

618
00:34:04.519 --> 00:34:07.279
even a level kind of I don't know, deeper, maybe

619
00:34:07.279 --> 00:34:10.559
more meaningful, which is vertical development, and its core is

620
00:34:10.599 --> 00:34:14.800
about healing our minds, our bodies, and our hearts. Yes,

621
00:34:14.880 --> 00:34:20.239
because healed leaders are powerful leaders, They are great leaders.

622
00:34:21.159 --> 00:34:25.360
And ultimately that's kind of what I feel like is

623
00:34:25.480 --> 00:34:29.920
my purpose is to help leaders to heal so that

624
00:34:30.039 --> 00:34:32.239
they could show up in higher and better ways.

625
00:34:33.880 --> 00:34:36.039
Lit Let our listeners and viewers just too on that

626
00:34:36.119 --> 00:34:38.559
beautiful what a beautiful way to be in the world, Ryan,

627
00:34:38.639 --> 00:34:41.039
and to be of service. I'm so happy to know you,

628
00:34:41.239 --> 00:34:43.039
to share with my listeners and viewers, and to be

629
00:34:43.159 --> 00:34:47.280
walking in step with you. I'm your host, Doctor Relie Cortez,

630
00:34:47.320 --> 00:34:49.400
who went on air with Ryan Godfordson. He is a

631
00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:53.199
cutting edge leadership development author, researcher, and consultant. He helps

632
00:34:53.320 --> 00:34:56.559
organizations vertically develop their leaders, primarily through a focus on

633
00:34:56.639 --> 00:34:59.920
mindsets to elevate the organization and culture. We've been to

634
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:02.840
talking a bit about the opportunity and the promise and

635
00:35:02.880 --> 00:35:06.159
what's involved in vertical development. After the break, we'll talk

636
00:35:06.159 --> 00:35:09.280
a bit more about advancing it and hope that's on

637
00:35:09.320 --> 00:35:11.079
the other side of that. We'll be right back.

638
00:35:26.639 --> 00:35:30.199
Doctor Elise Cortez is a management consultant specializing in meaning

639
00:35:30.239 --> 00:35:34.079
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author. She helps companies

640
00:35:34.159 --> 00:35:37.440
visioneer for a greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose

641
00:35:37.519 --> 00:35:41.880
inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance,

642
00:35:41.920 --> 00:35:44.960
and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to

643
00:35:45.000 --> 00:35:47.920
invite a lease to speak to your organization, please visit

644
00:35:47.920 --> 00:35:51.159
her at Elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to

645
00:35:51.159 --> 00:35:59.639
get your employees working on purpose. This is working on

646
00:35:59.719 --> 00:36:02.960
Purpose is with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program

647
00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:05.800
today or to open a conversation with Elise, send an

648
00:36:05.800 --> 00:36:11.840
email to Elise alisee at Elisecortes dot com. Now back

649
00:36:11.880 --> 00:36:13.199
to Working on Purpose.

650
00:36:18.320 --> 00:36:20.599
Thanks for stating with us, and welcome back to Working on Purpose.

651
00:36:20.599 --> 00:36:23.280
I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes. As you know by now,

652
00:36:23.320 --> 00:36:26.119
this program is dedicated to empowering and inspiring you along

653
00:36:26.119 --> 00:36:28.519
your journey to realize more of your potential. And so

654
00:36:28.519 --> 00:36:29.800
if you want to learn more about the work we're

655
00:36:29.840 --> 00:36:32.599
doing together and the Gusto Now Academy, make your way

656
00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:36.000
to gustodesh now dot com. Go to the training tab

657
00:36:36.039 --> 00:36:37.719
and you can find the academy and see if that's

658
00:36:37.800 --> 00:36:40.159
right for you or your team if you are just

659
00:36:40.239 --> 00:36:43.039
joining us. My guest is Ryan Gottferdson. He is the

660
00:36:43.039 --> 00:36:46.599
author of The Elevated Leader, Leveling Up Your Leadership through

661
00:36:46.679 --> 00:36:49.920
Vertical Development. So one of the other many things that

662
00:36:49.960 --> 00:36:51.760
I thought was fascinating about your book, and I want

663
00:36:51.760 --> 00:36:52.840
to give us a little bit of time to talk

664
00:36:52.880 --> 00:36:55.000
about what else you're doing as well since this book

665
00:36:55.000 --> 00:36:58.239
came out. But you do distinguish between top down approaches

666
00:36:58.239 --> 00:37:01.519
to vertical development and bottom up approaches. So if you

667
00:37:01.519 --> 00:37:04.199
could distinguish those two. I know you primarily work with

668
00:37:04.239 --> 00:37:06.599
the top down approaches, but if you could distinguish those

669
00:37:06.639 --> 00:37:08.400
two for us and tell us a bit more about

670
00:37:08.440 --> 00:37:10.719
how top done top down does work.

671
00:37:11.360 --> 00:37:14.280
Yeah, these concepts of top down and bottom up relate

672
00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:16.920
to our body, right, So top down and starting with

673
00:37:16.960 --> 00:37:19.840
the head and essentially getting into our heart. Bottom up

674
00:37:19.920 --> 00:37:21.880
is getting from our heart and go into our heads.

675
00:37:21.880 --> 00:37:27.800
So this terminology comes largely from the psychology literature, oftentimes

676
00:37:27.840 --> 00:37:32.679
in kind of the therapeutic setting. With the basic idea

677
00:37:32.840 --> 00:37:36.000
is with our nervous system. You know, we've got a

678
00:37:36.039 --> 00:37:39.880
connection between our mind and our body and heart, and

679
00:37:40.239 --> 00:37:45.440
oftentimes when people have experienced trauma, there's just that connection.

680
00:37:46.519 --> 00:37:49.079
While it's hard for us to sense it in ourselves,

681
00:37:49.360 --> 00:37:53.679
that connection might be weaker. And when that connection is weaker,

682
00:37:54.079 --> 00:37:56.320
we do see the symptoms of that in terms of

683
00:37:56.360 --> 00:38:00.519
our level of reactivity, the width of our window of tolerance,

684
00:38:01.480 --> 00:38:06.039
our level of dissociation, or our level of anxiety for example.

685
00:38:06.119 --> 00:38:08.440
So those are all signals that might you know, if

686
00:38:08.480 --> 00:38:11.039
we have issues with any of those things, that suggests

687
00:38:11.039 --> 00:38:14.599
that this connection between our head and our heart isn't

688
00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:18.679
quite as strong as it could be, and so there's

689
00:38:18.719 --> 00:38:23.679
different processes and therapeutic mid modalities that kind of can

690
00:38:23.719 --> 00:38:27.719
go either top down or bottom up. So to your point,

691
00:38:27.760 --> 00:38:30.559
when I work with organizations and do the mindset work,

692
00:38:30.599 --> 00:38:33.880
what we're doing is we're going top down. I'm introducing

693
00:38:33.880 --> 00:38:38.400
them to mindset concepts. I'm helping them to like cognitively

694
00:38:38.719 --> 00:38:41.280
pick up on this, and then once I do so,

695
00:38:41.480 --> 00:38:44.480
I'll have them to step into kind of what are

696
00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:47.079
the emotions that are going on here? What fears are

697
00:38:47.119 --> 00:38:50.639
coming up for you? And then ultimately how does that

698
00:38:50.760 --> 00:38:54.360
feel in your body? And what we've learned is as

699
00:38:54.400 --> 00:39:01.119
you make those steps down, it helps strengthen that connection. Conversely,

700
00:39:01.239 --> 00:39:04.880
now what I've learned is that some people have a

701
00:39:04.920 --> 00:39:09.960
really hard time stepping into this cognitively right because their

702
00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:16.039
bodies defensive mechanisms come up so quickly. And so in

703
00:39:16.079 --> 00:39:19.119
that case, what generally needs to happen is they need

704
00:39:19.159 --> 00:39:22.239
to start from the bottom up. Where they start in

705
00:39:22.280 --> 00:39:24.800
the heart with their feelings. What are you feeling in

706
00:39:24.840 --> 00:39:28.599
your body? Oh, where did those feelings come from? What?

707
00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:30.360
Now emotions come up for you?

708
00:39:30.719 --> 00:39:35.239
Now, let's make sense and connect the dots cognitively, so

709
00:39:35.280 --> 00:39:38.519
that movement from bottom up. And that's if we were

710
00:39:38.559 --> 00:39:42.079
to look at the kind of trauma therapy research, that

711
00:39:42.159 --> 00:39:48.400
bottom up approach is generally a deep healing approach. Now

712
00:39:48.400 --> 00:39:52.360
that top down isn't. I'm just gonna say, doesn't feel

713
00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:55.320
as deep to me. It's a little bit more approachable.

714
00:39:55.360 --> 00:39:57.559
And that's why I feel like I could do that

715
00:39:57.679 --> 00:40:01.079
work at a corporate level, whereas only if we want

716
00:40:01.079 --> 00:40:03.159
to go bottom up we probably need some sort of

717
00:40:03.199 --> 00:40:07.119
therapeutic help. But what I've learned from my personal experience

718
00:40:07.679 --> 00:40:10.719
is I've kind of I've done both, and I've done

719
00:40:10.760 --> 00:40:16.760
both simultaneously, and so one is good. Both together is

720
00:40:16.800 --> 00:40:21.400
incredibly transformational. And so again this is just kind of

721
00:40:21.519 --> 00:40:25.760
languaging that comes from the psychology literature that hopefully just

722
00:40:25.840 --> 00:40:31.079
kind of opens up some pathways that we could think about,

723
00:40:31.280 --> 00:40:34.599
how do I want to feel about vertically developing?

724
00:40:36.920 --> 00:40:39.000
It's just just so yummy on so many levels. And

725
00:40:39.039 --> 00:40:41.079
you know what's exciting for me, Ryan is you know,

726
00:40:41.159 --> 00:40:43.039
and I know you've this has happened for you too,

727
00:40:43.159 --> 00:40:46.480
is you know when we do this work well inside organizations,

728
00:40:46.480 --> 00:40:49.880
where really helped we help leaders to transform. Now we're

729
00:40:49.960 --> 00:40:52.440
impacting their culture as well. Is when you get the

730
00:40:52.480 --> 00:40:56.559
call from their certificate other saying thank you. That is

731
00:40:56.599 --> 00:40:59.159
where you know something's really happened here. And I just

732
00:40:59.199 --> 00:41:01.719
set some of them most joyful part of my world.

733
00:41:01.800 --> 00:41:04.719
And I'm sure you have the same thing, but but

734
00:41:04.920 --> 00:41:06.840
you know it's so important, you know I have over

735
00:41:06.840 --> 00:41:08.800
the years, I've had like Santa Claus and my podcast

736
00:41:08.840 --> 00:41:11.840
around the holidays, right, and one year Santa Claus and

737
00:41:11.880 --> 00:41:14.719
I were talking about the import of taking care of

738
00:41:15.079 --> 00:41:18.559
and healing and he said his Southern accent, of course,

739
00:41:18.559 --> 00:41:23.079
he says, southern Santa Indo. It's like hurt Papal, hurt

740
00:41:23.159 --> 00:41:26.880
papal yep. And I think that's really important. I recognize

741
00:41:26.880 --> 00:41:29.440
since that all of us are members of the walking wounded,

742
00:41:29.559 --> 00:41:32.639
none of us get this thing without being hurt. And

743
00:41:32.719 --> 00:41:35.440
so you know, doing this work is really important. I

744
00:41:35.480 --> 00:41:37.320
want to give you an opportunity to talk a little

745
00:41:37.320 --> 00:41:38.880
bit more what you mentioned as before we got there,

746
00:41:38.960 --> 00:41:40.960
that you've since this book has come out, you've done

747
00:41:41.000 --> 00:41:43.360
all kinds of other things you're thinking has continued to evolve.

748
00:41:43.599 --> 00:41:44.800
I want to give you a chance to share a

749
00:41:44.800 --> 00:41:46.639
little more about that. I do want to finish the

750
00:41:46.719 --> 00:41:49.400
show at the very end, and there with some inspirational

751
00:41:49.480 --> 00:41:51.159
leaders that people can kind of think about, Yeah, I

752
00:41:51.159 --> 00:41:53.400
want to grow into something like that. But tell us

753
00:41:53.400 --> 00:41:55.039
about some of these other things that you've been doing

754
00:41:55.079 --> 00:41:56.760
since The Elevated Leader came out, and what have you

755
00:41:56.800 --> 00:41:59.679
learned since that would also be helpful to this conversation.

756
00:42:00.519 --> 00:42:00.800
Yeah.

757
00:42:00.920 --> 00:42:03.679
One of the things, of course, The Elevated Leader is

758
00:42:03.719 --> 00:42:08.280
the title of that's my second book, and it's clearly

759
00:42:08.559 --> 00:42:12.360
for a leadership audience, and of course that's who I

760
00:42:12.440 --> 00:42:15.280
typically work with as a consultant. But let me tell

761
00:42:15.280 --> 00:42:19.199
a story if it's okay, related to family impact. So

762
00:42:19.559 --> 00:42:23.480
I'm working with an executive team. The most senior member

763
00:42:23.599 --> 00:42:25.840
on the team, he wasn't the CEO, he was the

764
00:42:25.880 --> 00:42:31.159
COO of the organization, had been tenured there for thirty years,

765
00:42:31.400 --> 00:42:35.639
nearing retirement, so he's kind of in his early sixties.

766
00:42:36.239 --> 00:42:38.079
And we started.

767
00:42:37.719 --> 00:42:43.719
Doing this work, and he kind of we did the work,

768
00:42:44.079 --> 00:42:46.840
and then about six months later, I had the opportunity

769
00:42:46.920 --> 00:42:49.440
to come back and work with the team again and

770
00:42:49.519 --> 00:42:52.239
just kind of say, all right, let's fallow through what

771
00:42:52.360 --> 00:42:55.880
was the impact of doing this vertical development work? And

772
00:42:55.960 --> 00:42:58.280
he was the first to raise his hand and I

773
00:42:58.360 --> 00:43:05.400
was like, oh, okay, and he shared. He says, I'm

774
00:43:05.480 --> 00:43:09.559
on my second marriage. I married my now my second

775
00:43:09.559 --> 00:43:13.679
wife about ten years ago, and for the last ten years,

776
00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:16.679
I've had my two step daughters live under my roof.

777
00:43:17.039 --> 00:43:19.679
They are now college age. And he said, if I'm

778
00:43:19.679 --> 00:43:23.280
being honest with you, up until we did this work,

779
00:43:24.039 --> 00:43:26.880
we just kind of lived under the same roof, I

780
00:43:26.920 --> 00:43:30.119
didn't really interact with them, and he said, over the

781
00:43:30.199 --> 00:43:35.360
last six months, I have interacted with them every day

782
00:43:35.519 --> 00:43:39.400
and it's the best part of my day. And so

783
00:43:40.159 --> 00:43:43.000
when I first started hearing stories like this, it kind

784
00:43:43.000 --> 00:43:46.119
of caught me off guard, right because I did this

785
00:43:46.239 --> 00:43:49.840
training in a leadership and corporate environment, and whenever I

786
00:43:49.840 --> 00:43:53.239
would ask about the impact, they would almost always come

787
00:43:53.280 --> 00:43:55.559
back to an impact on their family. And so now

788
00:43:55.599 --> 00:43:58.039
I've come to expect that, and I've kind of asked

789
00:43:58.039 --> 00:44:01.000
the question, well, why is that? And what I've one

790
00:44:01.039 --> 00:44:05.960
of the reasons why is because we oftentimes feel safer

791
00:44:06.400 --> 00:44:09.239
trying out a new elevated version of ourselves with our

792
00:44:09.280 --> 00:44:13.719
families before we are our colleagues. And so that's been

793
00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:18.039
really cool to see. And so what I've realized from

794
00:44:18.119 --> 00:44:21.679
that and coming off of The Elevated Leader is these

795
00:44:21.719 --> 00:44:24.400
ideas are powerful for everybody.

796
00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:27.199
So I decided I wanted to write a.

797
00:44:27.159 --> 00:44:33.639
Book that goes for that is for anybody, and it's

798
00:44:33.679 --> 00:44:35.000
about elevating themselves.

799
00:44:35.039 --> 00:44:36.400
So my latest book.

800
00:44:36.119 --> 00:44:38.679
Came out in June, just low over, you know, seven

801
00:44:38.679 --> 00:44:43.000
months ago, and it's called Becoming Better, The Groundbreaking Science

802
00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:45.519
of Personal Transformation. And it takes the concepts in The

803
00:44:45.559 --> 00:44:48.039
Elevated Leader and makes them more applicable.

804
00:44:48.280 --> 00:44:50.440
And I think one.

805
00:44:50.320 --> 00:44:54.239
Of the value ads is since I wrote The Elevated Leader,

806
00:44:54.480 --> 00:44:58.920
until I wrote Becoming Better is my area of focus

807
00:44:59.480 --> 00:45:02.880
in terms of my research was on the neuroscience of

808
00:45:03.039 --> 00:45:06.840
leadership development. And so as as we've talked, we've talked

809
00:45:06.840 --> 00:45:10.119
a lot about that, and so that comes out I

810
00:45:10.159 --> 00:45:18.119
think heavier but also communicated more effectively in Becoming Better. Wow.

811
00:45:18.199 --> 00:45:21.679
Well, I here's the thing, my friend. You're coming back

812
00:45:21.719 --> 00:45:23.880
to talk about that book at some point. So that's

813
00:45:23.920 --> 00:45:26.000
just you know, you can run, but you can pretty

814
00:45:26.079 --> 00:45:30.599
fast on my feet. Okay, I love that. Now let's

815
00:45:30.599 --> 00:45:33.960
do this. Let's let's sprinkle some hope and possibility for

816
00:45:34.039 --> 00:45:36.360
our listeners and viewers. One of the things that I

817
00:45:36.360 --> 00:45:39.440
always say, I'm an organizational psychologist in part because I

818
00:45:39.519 --> 00:45:42.360
believe in the power and the place of work in

819
00:45:42.400 --> 00:45:45.039
our lives, and I know it can be such a

820
00:45:45.079 --> 00:45:48.880
tremendously beautiful, important part of our lives when it goes well,

821
00:45:49.400 --> 00:45:52.800
and as leaders, we have such an opportunity to greatly

822
00:45:52.880 --> 00:45:56.280
impact and improve people's lives and serve all those stakeholders

823
00:45:56.280 --> 00:45:59.800
you've been talking about. So let's do this to kind

824
00:45:59.800 --> 00:46:03.039
of at home. You mentioned a few really good examples

825
00:46:03.119 --> 00:46:05.960
of leaders that that you showcase in the book that

826
00:46:06.039 --> 00:46:09.039
I think would be good to look to an aspire toward.

827
00:46:09.360 --> 00:46:12.679
We've talked about Satchua Nadella, and but it's this, you know,

828
00:46:12.719 --> 00:46:14.480
I want to just sort of share some of these

829
00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:17.800
quotes and perspectives that you have in your book here.

830
00:46:18.519 --> 00:46:20.679
But you say that Satchin Nadella, one of the things

831
00:46:20.679 --> 00:46:22.719
that he says is, I truly believe that each of

832
00:46:22.800 --> 00:46:25.719
us must find meaning in our work. The best work

833
00:46:25.880 --> 00:46:28.599
happens when you know that it's not just work, but

834
00:46:28.719 --> 00:46:32.360
something that will improve other people's lives. So we're not

835
00:46:32.440 --> 00:46:34.679
talking about you know, the you know what quarter revenues

836
00:46:34.679 --> 00:46:37.840
that we're hitting here. Those are important. It's much bigger

837
00:46:37.920 --> 00:46:39.079
than that so I just want to give you a

838
00:46:39.159 --> 00:46:40.519
chance to come in on that if you want to,

839
00:46:40.599 --> 00:46:43.119
if you want to share the other quotes from at catmull,

840
00:46:43.199 --> 00:46:46.960
Alan Malalley or Francis Hauselvin, they're wonderful.

841
00:46:47.960 --> 00:46:50.400
Yeah. So here's what we're going to see in the

842
00:46:50.440 --> 00:46:54.559
patterns of these elevated leaders language is they will use

843
00:46:54.679 --> 00:47:01.599
words like empathy, harmony, compassion, purpose.

844
00:47:01.239 --> 00:47:03.400
Those are the types of words they lead with.

845
00:47:03.519 --> 00:47:07.719
They don't lead with, let's win, let's advance, let's push harder.

846
00:47:09.199 --> 00:47:12.440
And that's what that's the beauty of this fifth year

847
00:47:12.880 --> 00:47:19.639
leadership is because when we are emphasizing things like empathy, harmony, purpose,

848
00:47:20.639 --> 00:47:25.280
we are actually able to go faster, but it doesn't

849
00:47:25.320 --> 00:47:27.119
feel as fast.

850
00:47:28.079 --> 00:47:28.960
And so that's the beauty.

851
00:47:29.000 --> 00:47:32.159
Like Francis Hesselbeyen is fantastic and one of the things

852
00:47:32.159 --> 00:47:34.320
that she says that I love and it really played

853
00:47:34.360 --> 00:47:37.880
a big role in my thinking with my latest book

854
00:47:38.320 --> 00:47:41.440
is leadership is not about what to do, It's about

855
00:47:41.480 --> 00:47:46.119
how to be. And I think that's ultimately what we're

856
00:47:46.159 --> 00:47:48.239
talking about with vertical development is we're not.

857
00:47:48.280 --> 00:47:51.920
Improving our doings, we're improving our.

858
00:47:51.880 --> 00:47:58.159
Being and that's when we could lead and impact let's

859
00:47:58.159 --> 00:48:03.000
go to some other examples. Let's take stereotypical great examples Gandhi, Nelson,

860
00:48:03.039 --> 00:48:06.480
Mandela Martin, Luther King, Abraham Lincoln. Right, these are people

861
00:48:06.480 --> 00:48:10.400
who have who have been very purposeful. And if we

862
00:48:10.440 --> 00:48:14.320
ask like why did they have their impact? Was it

863
00:48:14.360 --> 00:48:19.719
because they had specific knowledge or specific skills. No, not

864
00:48:19.760 --> 00:48:22.960
saying that they weren't knowledgeable and weren't skillful. They surely were.

865
00:48:23.440 --> 00:48:26.800
The reason why they impacted the world was because of

866
00:48:26.840 --> 00:48:32.119
their being who they were, not necessarily their knowledge and skills.

867
00:48:32.199 --> 00:48:34.440
And so I think that when we do this vertical

868
00:48:34.440 --> 00:48:37.039
development work, what we're doing is we're opening the door

869
00:48:37.199 --> 00:48:42.000
to help people to elevate their being who they are.

870
00:48:43.039 --> 00:48:46.119
And then when we do that, naturally we're going to

871
00:48:46.199 --> 00:48:51.239
do better. And and so that's it's just a again,

872
00:48:51.360 --> 00:48:53.039
it's a different frame of mind when it comes to

873
00:48:53.079 --> 00:48:54.400
our developmental strategy.

874
00:48:55.079 --> 00:48:57.719
Well, Brian, you are such a gift. I'm so gr

875
00:48:57.760 --> 00:48:59.239
able to know you. I want to give you a

876
00:48:59.280 --> 00:49:01.559
chance to close this show in about say twenty seconds,

877
00:49:01.559 --> 00:49:03.519
knowing that this is heard by people around the world.

878
00:49:03.599 --> 00:49:05.519
This is what they care about, elevating their leadership and

879
00:49:05.599 --> 00:49:07.639
making the impact they create. What would you like to

880
00:49:07.719 --> 00:49:10.039
leave them with, Well, let's just.

881
00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:13.719
Come back to the idea that we brought up earlier,

882
00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:18.559
that vertical development and really improving ourselves. If we want

883
00:49:18.599 --> 00:49:22.440
to become better, we've got to heal our minds, our bodies,

884
00:49:22.519 --> 00:49:25.039
and our hearts. And as you kind of alluded to,

885
00:49:25.320 --> 00:49:29.239
we all have room for healing. And that doesn't mean

886
00:49:29.280 --> 00:49:32.840
that we have necessarily been hurt in extreme ways, right,

887
00:49:32.880 --> 00:49:35.800
but we all have room for healing because we're human.

888
00:49:36.880 --> 00:49:40.840
And I hope this opens up a door for you

889
00:49:41.639 --> 00:49:45.360
to now sink your teeth into doing that healing work.

890
00:49:46.840 --> 00:49:48.639
Ryan, you are such a gift. So glad to know

891
00:49:48.679 --> 00:49:51.239
you and share with my listeners and viewers. Listeners and viewers,

892
00:49:51.239 --> 00:49:53.840
you are going to want to follow this man, Ryan

893
00:49:53.880 --> 00:49:56.960
Gotfredson the work he does elevating leaders in culture through

894
00:49:57.000 --> 00:49:59.719
mindsets and his books, one of which, of course, is

895
00:49:59.719 --> 00:50:03.239
the Leader. So follow him by going to his website.

896
00:50:03.280 --> 00:50:08.159
It's Ryan Goodfordsen dot com. So Ryan RYA N. Godfredson

897
00:50:08.239 --> 00:50:11.559
is spelled g O T T f R ed s

898
00:50:11.599 --> 00:50:14.280
O N, so find his website. He's also on LinkedIn

899
00:50:14.880 --> 00:50:16.400
last week. If you missed the live show, you can

900
00:50:16.440 --> 00:50:18.639
always catch it be a recorded podcast. We were on

901
00:50:18.719 --> 00:50:21.840
with doctor Tim Ilmore, the founder of Growing Leaders in

902
00:50:21.880 --> 00:50:26.159
Atlanta based nonprofit organization created to develop emerging leaders. We

903
00:50:26.239 --> 00:50:29.760
talked about his book The Future Begins with Z, nine

904
00:50:29.760 --> 00:50:33.800
Strategies to lead Generation Z as they this threw up

905
00:50:33.880 --> 00:50:36.880
the Workforce, which was an incredibly insightful conversation on how

906
00:50:36.920 --> 00:50:39.920
to motivate Gen Z and how leaders can best unleash

907
00:50:39.920 --> 00:50:42.840
their brilliance to reap the rewards within their organizations in

908
00:50:42.920 --> 00:50:44.400
doing so. Fantastic, You got.

909
00:50:44.280 --> 00:50:44.679
To catch it.

910
00:50:45.280 --> 00:50:47.519
Next week will be on the air with Gray McDowell

911
00:50:47.559 --> 00:50:51.199
talking about his book Crafting a Corporate Camelot where leadership

912
00:50:51.199 --> 00:50:54.280
becomes Legend. See you then, and together, let's lean in

913
00:50:54.320 --> 00:50:57.400
and learn how to create destination workplaces where people thrive

914
00:50:57.679 --> 00:50:59.719
while doing business in a way that betters the world.

915
00:51:00.039 --> 00:51:01.119
Let's work on Purpose.

916
00:51:04.440 --> 00:51:07.079
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to

917
00:51:07.119 --> 00:51:10.199
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise

918
00:51:10.239 --> 00:51:14.119
Cortes each week on W four CY. Together we'll create

919
00:51:14.159 --> 00:51:18.840
a world where business operates conscientiously, leadership inspires and passion performance,

920
00:51:18.960 --> 00:51:21.719
and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning

921
00:51:21.760 --> 00:51:25.559
and purpose They crave see you there. Let's work on purpose,