Feb. 10, 2026

You Don’t Feel Ready—Good. That’s Where Leadership Begins

You Don’t Feel Ready—Good. That’s Where Leadership Begins
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Real leadership doesn’t emerge in moments of certainty—it’s forged in ambiguity, discomfort, and self-doubt. No matter where you are on your leadership journey, you will face moments where you don’t know the answers and can’t see the road ahead. In this thoughtful conversation with leadership expert Pete Behrens, we unpack how to lead authentically in the fog, embrace the messiness of real life, and step into leadership not because you’re ready—but because you’re needed.

Working on Purpose is broadcast live Tuesdays at 6PM ET and Music on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Working on Purpose is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).

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WEBVTT

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The topics and opinions express in the following show are

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solely those of the hosts and their guests and not

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those of W FOURCY Radio. It's employees are affiliates. We

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W FOURCY Radio.

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What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the

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answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose

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at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their

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lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization

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that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their

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highest potential. Business can be such a force for good

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in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide

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guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we

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all want working on Purpose. Now, here's your host, doctor

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Elise Cortez.

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Welcome back to the Working and Purpose Program, which has

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been brought to you with passionate price since February of

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twenty fifteen already. Thanks for training in this week. Great

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to have you. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes. If

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we not met before and you don't know me, I

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am a workforce advisor, organizational psychologist, manage a consultant, logo therapist,

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speaker and author. I constantly am searching and helping my

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clients elevate their leadership and culture, and my team and

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I at Gusto Now help companies to enlive and in

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fortify their operations by building a dynamic, high performance culture,

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inspiracial leadership and nursery managers activated by meaning and purpose.

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You can learn more AboutUs on how we can work

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together at gusto dashnow dot com or my personal site,

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Atliscortes dot com. In today's program, we have with us

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Pete Barns. He's the founder and CEO of Agile Leadership Journey,

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where he spent over three decades of guiding leaders through uncertainty.

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He's the author of Into the Fog Leadership Stories from

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the Edge of Uncertainty, which we'll be talking about today.

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He Joe today from Boulder, Colorado. Pete, welcome to work

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looking on purpose.

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Thank you. Great to be here all right, awesome.

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Hey, well, let's first things first, celebrate this beautiful thing

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you brought into the world. I know that you know

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you have done all kinds of things things in your life,

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and I can tell you that it's harder to bring

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this book into the world than it is a child,

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because no comment, Okay, I'm just saying I can actually

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say that.

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So congratulations, thank you.

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Yes, it is a labor of love, that is for sure.

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It's not about the money. It's about the purpose.

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Yes, it really is. And I delighted in reading your book.

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That's just chock full of so many stories, as you say,

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about authentic leadership and what it is to be on

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the edge of uncertainty. And so there's a few of

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those that are supposed to want to showcase in this conversation.

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But before we get there, I read your books, so

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I know about your background. My listeners and viewers don't yet.

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So let's just start with talking a bit about your

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background and how it is that you managed to move

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away from engineering into the world of training and coaching leaders.

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Yeah, it stumps most people. It looks like a very

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large leap going from an engineer somebody technical to leadership developments,

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and I often say it's not the leap people presume

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it is. If you think about what the role of

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an engineer is, it's to take a system and try

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to optimize it to be better in some way. And

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so for many years I focused on technical systems, computer systems,

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database systems, things like that. And as I worked in business,

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I found that most of the problems, most of the

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biggest challenging problems in organizations, weren't technical problems. There were

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human ones. Yeah, and that put me on this journey

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of what is it about human systems that's so complex?

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And led me to leadership. And so what I say

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that I do today is engineering of a different focus.

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It's optimizing a human system, one of the most complex systems,

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as you know, to try to optimize. So I feel

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like I'm still that engineer inside a different medium. Yeah,

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got you.

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I love that A wonder wonderful way to describe as

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such a vast amount of journey. So thank you for that.

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I completely agree with your assessment. By the way, we

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are the most complex creatures. So I want to read

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a little passage from your book that I just thought

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was really compelling and I think will really situate why

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your book is important, why we need it, and why

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it's important to work from this notion of uncertainty. You

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go on to say pretty early in your book, you

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say leaders we see today weren't raised in the particular

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fog we're facing now. They grew up in a time

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before in our experiencing this fog for the first time,

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just as you and I are. The fog is dynamic,

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it's fast, and it's not waiting for us. Gary Hamill,

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one of the most influential business thinkers of the past

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two decades, has warned us it's changing faster than we

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are changing. The real danger of fog even that we

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don't see it, it's that we don't adapt quickly enough

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to face it. Fog is already here. Are you prepared

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to face it? I think that's such a critical thing

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to start with, because I don't think that most people

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really understand just the sheer amount of complexity and ambiguity

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that is confronting them today.

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Yes, and that is the premise of the fog. As

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you're getting at, it's that feeling we all have where

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we might know where we want to go, we might

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understand or have a vision, yet at the same time,

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everything is happening around us that creates an environment that

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makes us fearful, that makes us uncertain, unsure, unclear about

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what to do. And it's that freezing action that we

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want to pick up on. And the fog I believe

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as a metaphor everybody can relate to to that feeling.

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I appreciate how you go on to say that the

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fog is in your enemy. It's a signal, it means

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something changing and adaptation is necessary. It's an invitation to

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slow down, not to panic or power through blindly, to

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step back, gather insights, and look again for fresh with

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fresh eyes. I think that's really powerful to situate it

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that way, too well.

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It often is when we think about us in uncertainty

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and change, we feel like this is a problem that

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needs to be fixed. This is a situation I've got

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to clear up. When we imagine fog, or when we

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think about our work worlds or society today, these are

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parts of the landscape that will never truly go away.

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They will never fully clear up, and it's a mistake

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to assume that they will, or to cling to control

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or to cling to a plan. When we realize that

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these are all illusions of control. And so it's really

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recognizing this is the landscape, especially in leadership. If we

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think about what is leadership, leadership takes us place as

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we've never been before. That's inherently uncertain, that will inherently change,

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that's inherently foggy. So this is the nature that I

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want to get across that it's not a defect, it's

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not a problem. It's something we must navigate that we're

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going to be effective at this game of leadership.

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Yeah, and I appreciate that you actually further go on

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to say that it fog doesn't mean that you are broken.

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I think that's really important to say too, And if

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you could situate a bit. I think what's really interesting

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in my own years of helping to develop and coach

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leaders and I really appreciate I've gotten to be on

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the front line of helping those people that are getting

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their first supervisor jobs. They go from being an individual

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contributor to a supervisor and now they're managing their their

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former colleagues to managers, to senior leaders to executives. And

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I have really loved that whole process. And I think

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for a lot of people, this idea of thinking that

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I'm supposed to know the answers is so built in,

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and so if I like and appreciate this notion, when

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you say that fog doesn't mean you're broken, you say

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a bit more about that.

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I mean, go back to school. We're taught there's a

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right and a wrong, there's a good and a bad.

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There's grades that measure our effectiveness. And I think we're

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ingrained through our education that this has a particular way

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to do it. And as a leader, then I start

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to feel responsible not just for myself, but for others

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that are following or others that I'm responsible for in

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the organization, and so that burden we carry becomes a

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burden of I've got to be right. I've got to

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have the answer. They're all waiting for me, they're all

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choosing to me. And this is one of the reasons

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I wanted to write this book is I believe the

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best leaders counter that. It's a bit of a leadership

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meme that we follow the you know, the one who

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has the vision and the answers, and it's all right,

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it's more about I've got a vision, but I can't

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get there without you. That's this weird mix of ego

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but also human that you can name a better future

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and then also be vulnerable to say, but I can't

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do it alone. And so it's that balance between having

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some direction but not necessarily all the tools and all

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the answers to get there that we find to be

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in the best leaders.

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And maybe I think you also alluded to several times too,

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it's not even necessary that we know where we're going necessarily,

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we just know where you need to put some steps

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forward here, and so have an idea of the direction,

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but maybe not even completely sure of exactly where we're going,

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just know that we need some kind of forwardab momentum.

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And that's another oxymoron in the fog is wait for clarity.

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No clarity doesn't come from standing still. Clarity comes from movement.

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And one of the agility constructs that we think about

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in uncertainty is unless we start to create some movement,

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we aren't going to get feedback. We're not going to

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see what's right, what's wrong. And then do we all

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these mistakes? Do we call them wrong? If I make

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a step or two and it turns out to be

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not the correct step to where I believe we should

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be going judgments then starts to get in our way.

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So yeah, this construct of movement creates clarity as a

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critical one when we start thinking about the fog. But

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you specifically talked on vision. I think this is one

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of those things where we often get wrong. The fog

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doesn't preclude us from having a vision or where we

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want to go.

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It shouldn't.

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In fact, having a vision is really the only way

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we know whether we've made steps right or wrong, because

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it's either leading us to it or away from it

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in some way. So agility doesn't counter vision. I think

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it a vision serves agility so that we can make

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those pivots necessary when we realize we're not following it.

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Beautiful. Thank you for that, Pete. That was great. I

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do think that one of.

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The most compelling users of your book. There are many,

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but I do think that very notion of getting into

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motion so that you have get that feedback is really

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a critical part and distinguishes your approach from others that

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I've talked about or worked with before as well.

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So I just want to celebrate that part of it too.

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Thank you.

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Yeah, you're welcome.

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The other thing that is interesting, There are many aspects

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of your book that really kind of distinguish it. And

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one is absolutely that you reference climbing and leadership piece

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throughout your book, including your own experience. So if you

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could talk a little bit about, you know, the choice

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to include that is like a thread in your book,

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the idea of your own experience climbing, what you learned

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about yourself and what you learned about leadership, and what

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you kind of have learned to teach as a result

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of that.

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I think that would be useful.

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Yeah, there's when you pick a book and you're looking

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for some of those themes, which ones jump out, and

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you know, there was parts of this book that the

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mountains and the paths were the theme, and then you know,

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they become the sub theme when fog emerged as the

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primary theme. Mountains, to me are something quite important living

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in Boulder, Colorado. They're right outside my backyard and they

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represent the challenge in front of us. They represent the

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landscape that is not easy to overcome when we think

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about business. So it's a useful metaphor in thinking overcoming

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our challenges. One of the things that I tried to

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bring about with the Landscape of Leadership, though specifically, was

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what I'd call elusive peaks. And one of the early

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chapters is called elusive peaks, where we're actually describing these

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false peaks that we think we want to achieve. This

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might be, as you mentioned, a leader growing in their capacity,

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I want to shift into be a strategic leader. Sure,

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so is strategy a peak? Well, yes, and no. Strategy

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we realize is useful. But if I go there and

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I get a loop to the tactics, if I become

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disconnected from the real work, strategy becomes useless. So it

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is a peak, but it's an elusive peak because it

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only comes in concert with something else strategy and tactics,

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or expertise and openness. If I have all this expertise,

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this this knowledge, this learning, yet does that close me

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to being open to other ideas? This is another one

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of those peaks that we kind of see but then realize, ooh,

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it's trickier than I thought. So we use that metaphor

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in many ways. Leadership shows up in many of these

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tensions that we believe it to be one thing, but

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it turns out to be more complex than that. M H.

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And then if you could see just a bit about

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you know you you talked about your own experiences of climbing,

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and you know the rigors of that and the stresses,

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the tensions of that too, if you say too a

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bit about you know how you layered that in because

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it's so beautiful.

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How you know, we learned a lot about.

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You in this book, which makes it cleasy, makes you accessible, right,

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And I applaud you for that because not everybody does that, right,

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But you share a lot about climbing in your own

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personal experience of learning from it.

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Yes, I'll share maybe one of the key stories in

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the book that starts to introduce a concept we haven't

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yet explored yet, the inner fog, and that is when

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I was co leading a group of teenagers on a

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mountain hike. And it's one thing to go on a

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mountain hike on your own, right, that's an adventure, that's fun,

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and if you're in danger, that's yourself and whoever you're

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climbing with. You're leading a group of teenagers, that's a

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whole different category. You feel responsible, you feel nervous. They're

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not fully formed yet, so you never know what they're

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thinking and doing. We're on a multi stage, multi day

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hike in the mountain, staying at about eleven thousand feet

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climbing towards what we call a fourteen er in Colorado.

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And our goal was two of those two fourteen ers

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in one day. And we get to the first and

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we're late, we're behind schedule, and of course in Colorado

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the storms start to emerge, and that's when leadership really

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starts to show up. Not when it's easy, but when

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it's hard. What do you do? And what was interesting

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is I was really young, and this was a story

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of me. I felt barely above a teenager. I was

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in my early twenties. There was a more experienced guide

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with me, and long story short, we made a decision

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in that moment to split the team. Some wanted to

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go on, some wanted to go back. I didn't want

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to look weak. I wanted to look fun. I wanted

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to look courageous. And so I'm like, yeah, let's go.

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And sure enough, we descend down in the saddle, we

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start going up the next mountain range and before I

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knew it, our hair is literally standing on edge. And

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it's a feeling. If you've never had, this feeling is

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scarier than anything I've ever felt before. It means electricity

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is about to charg and strike. And in that moment,

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my leadership finally showed up, the courage finally showed up

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to make the right choice. And I realized looking back

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on that the initial decision to move on wasn't leadership,

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it was it was cowardness. I was afraid to look

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vulnerable in front of these teens. I was afraid to

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look weak in front of these teens. And this is

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one of those stories where we're illustrating what might feel

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like courage and elusive peak. Courage might be recklessness in

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this case, likely likelihood, you know? Or is it too cautious? Right? Again,

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It's one of these elusive peaks that I failed to

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find in that moment, that I only found through almost

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complete failure. Fortunately, I was very lucky. Nobody got hurt

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on this particular engagement, and I lived to tell this.

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Story beautifully told as well. Beautiful way to take us

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into our first break, Pete, let us let our listeners

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and youwers consider your story where they were maybe in

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their own leadership journey that they might relate to that

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whole climate experience you were talking about. I'm your host,

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doctor Elise Cortez. We're on the air with Pete Barons.

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He's the founder and CEO of Agile Leadership Journey, where

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he spent over three decades of guiding leaders through uncertainty.

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We've been talking about some of the principles in the

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book that really anchor what he has put what he's

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putting forth after the work. We're getting to get into

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a few more stories that illustrate how they show up

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in action. We'll be right back.

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Doctor Elise Courts has as a management consultant specializing in

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meaning and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps

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companies visioneer for a greater purpose among stakeholders and develop

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purpose and inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance,

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and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to

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invite a lease to speak to your organization, please visit

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her at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to

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get your employees working on purpose. This is working on

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Purpose with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today

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00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:28.640
or to open a conversation with Elise, send an email

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to Elise A LISEE at elisecortes dot com. Now back

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to working on Purpose.

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Thanks for jeating with us and welcome back to Working

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on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Release Cortes, as I

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am dedicated to helping create a world where organizations thrive

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because they're people thrive and they're led by inspirational leaders

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that help them find in country with their greatness.

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And we do business at Betters the World.

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I keep researching and writing my own books. So one

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of my latest came out called The Great Revitalization. How

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activated meaning and purpose can radically and live in your business.

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And I wrote to help leaders understand today's workforce, what

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do they want, need to give their best and want

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to stick around? And then I give you twenty two

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best practices to equip you to provide that for you,

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for them and your culture. You can find my books

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on Amazon or my own site at leastcore test dot

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com if you're just no joining us. My guest is

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Pete Barrens. He's the author of Into the Fog Leadership

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Stories from the Edge of Uncertainty, which we've been exploring

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in today's conversation. So really quick, when you're sharing the

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story on the energy storm, I could relate to that

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exactly because I experienced it when I was like twenty

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six years old. Living in Brazil and my then boyfriend

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at the time, who I was there with, we were

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living down there. We were out in the Pantanal, which

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is the central part of the central area of the country.

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That is, you know, it's just this huge, beautiful wilderness,

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birds the size of airplanes kind of thing. And we

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were out riding horseback through like a foot of water,

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and I felt that feeling and I'm like, oh my gosh,

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can I think of a worst place to be right

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now than this? And that's when my leadership kicked in. Pete,

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I'm like, let's go. So I could really relate to that.

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It is a terrifying feeling. You are, you recognize you

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are in a small little you know, might in the universe,

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and at the mercy of this.

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So I really appreciate that story.

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To me, just to add on to that, the value

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to me is pointing leadership out in unusual places.

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Yes, you beautiful.

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Yeah. And it's then you mentioned it's a very it's

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a very personal book. It's it's it became a lot

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more personal than I expected. And part of that was

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to show leadership in non common ways. It's not about

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our political or pro tech culture. That we see a

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lot in our in our politics and news. It's about

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the humanity of leadership that shows up in very uncommon

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places or unexpected places. Mm hm.

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Well, the other thing that I would say, and Pete,

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you got to recognize of and who this podcast for

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eleven years and so you're I think number five seventy

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five or something like that. I read a lot of books,

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and I the ones that I relate to the best,

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and I think probably most readers do, or is when

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I do get to know the author, I want to

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know who you are as a human. And then you know,

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we're talking about leadership here, and you do talk about authenticity,

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so you know, I would expect that by the time

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I finished reading this book that I feel like I'm

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connected to you. And then you did that.

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Thank you.

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Yeah, you're welcome.

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So going on here, one of the other things that

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I thought was curious and I could so appreciate that

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you talk about is the leadership choice. And you go

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on to say that many people hesitate to lead because

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they believe that leadership belongs to.

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Somebody else, or they're not qualified, they're not ready.

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Somebody has more experience, more authority, more charisma, So they

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wait for permission. And you say, true leadership is a decision.

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It's a choice to act or engage, a choice to

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make an impact where you.

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Are with what you have right now.

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And I think that is such a beautiful thing to

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put forward, because I do think so many people hold

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back when they really could come up and really make

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a difference.

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Yes, yes, it was my invitation really to strip away

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titles and positions and offices with name badges. And I've

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been training coaching leaders for two decades now and I

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find more and more those actually get in the way

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of true leadership. We become dependent upon the authority they bring,

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and so I lose the capacity to influence others towards

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a common goal. That's really what leadership is. Because are

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people following because they want to or are they following

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because they're obligated to? And as a leader with a title,

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that's hard to know. You don't have to be good

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at leadership to get people to do stuff if you

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have the power and the influence to do it. So

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my invitation is really stripped that away. What is the essence?

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What is this choice that people have wherever they are

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and whatever position to demonstrate this can show up been

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speaking into a room, This can show up and leading

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your community. This can show up in you know, how

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you're managing with your kids. So that's that was the

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invitation was to see it in this new light and

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hopefully then take that into the workplace and become better leaders.

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Well. To showcase that, we have to talk about the

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wonderful story that you talk about of how someone in

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your neighborhood stepped up to think and recognize the firefighters

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after you've experienced that fire. And by the way, I

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can't even imagine what that must have been like. We

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cannot imagine. So let's talk about that, and then I'll

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share my own story about how this shows up and

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do it in the same way you do in the

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book where you share it kind of reveal the reveal.

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Yeah, fair enough. So the story. Four years ago, we

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in bold of Colorado, or just outside both of Colorado,

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had extreme fire in December twenty seventh, the very unusual

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time for a fire in Colorado. We have long dry

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periods here as an area community, and a huge wind

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about one hundred miles an hour came and we had

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this intense storm. Long story short on the fire. It

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destroyed a thousand homes in twenty four hours, not too

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different than what we saw in La La was even

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more extreme. I think ten thousand homes there in multiple communities,

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but very very similar here in Boulder, Colorado. What I

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say in the book is leadership in those moments is clear,

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the adrenaline fueled response that first responders and we as

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humans have in chaos and crisis evacuate, protect, say what

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happens when the fire subsides, but the remains are just

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as damaging when the fog sets in. That's this story

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is when there's not a clear what to do next.

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We lived on what I call the fire line. Our

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house literally our street was divided in two. Half were

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completely destroyed down to foundation, the other half untouched but

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not really it smoke damages, very damaging, but not burnt.

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And our house was right in that dividing line. It

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was the last ones they saved along that particular evening,

466
00:25:17.599 --> 00:25:23.279
which is surreal in it of itself. Somebody following that

467
00:25:23.359 --> 00:25:28.519
episode decided it's time to step forward and thank the

468
00:25:28.519 --> 00:25:32.720
first responders who helped save our home and many others,

469
00:25:33.319 --> 00:25:36.640
and so went only to the homes that were saved

470
00:25:36.839 --> 00:25:39.480
to collect donations and cards and thank yous and gifts

471
00:25:39.720 --> 00:25:43.000
and money to thank the first responders. And of course,

472
00:25:43.039 --> 00:25:46.359
in a fire of that magnitude and speed, the biggest

473
00:25:46.440 --> 00:25:49.960
challenge for her was who do we actually think who

474
00:25:50.039 --> 00:25:52.119
is on our street? We have no idea. There's hundreds

475
00:25:52.160 --> 00:25:55.200
of units from not only Colorado, but from Kansas and

476
00:25:55.279 --> 00:25:58.960
Wyoming and Utah that came to assist this particular fire,

477
00:25:59.039 --> 00:26:01.759
and so there's no master plan. It was chaos when

478
00:26:01.759 --> 00:26:07.400
it was being protected or attempted to be saved. She

479
00:26:07.720 --> 00:26:12.039
went through a diligent effort of finding, discovering, and determining

480
00:26:12.079 --> 00:26:16.160
who to thank, and finally found thirteen departments, mostly located

481
00:26:16.200 --> 00:26:24.119
around Colorado, that were on our streets. And she could

482
00:26:24.160 --> 00:26:26.039
have just given the boxes and gift cards, she could

483
00:26:26.079 --> 00:26:28.839
have just said, okay, thank you, but she didn't. She

484
00:26:29.240 --> 00:26:33.720
invited us into conversations. We went to visits to these

485
00:26:34.480 --> 00:26:39.279
firehouses to meet them in person, to thank them, and man,

486
00:26:39.559 --> 00:26:44.559
was it some of the most powerful moments that I've

487
00:26:44.599 --> 00:26:48.680
ever experienced as a human. I think the firefighters needed

488
00:26:48.680 --> 00:26:53.720
it as much as we did. It would describe experienced

489
00:26:54.119 --> 00:26:57.400
long living firefighters described this as the most intense they've

490
00:26:57.440 --> 00:27:00.400
ever faced in their career. Some have said that they've

491
00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:04.039
never been personally thanked after a fire. They would show

492
00:27:04.119 --> 00:27:06.759
videos and that they took during the fire and tell

493
00:27:06.839 --> 00:27:12.599
stories and it was just an impactful experience. I learned

494
00:27:12.640 --> 00:27:16.599
so much more than I thought going through that process.

495
00:27:17.720 --> 00:27:23.440
The reveal the leadership lesson here. Number one, my Nahbor

496
00:27:23.559 --> 00:27:27.079
did not have a title. There's no community organizer title

497
00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:29.559
that she held. She just saw a gap and chose

498
00:27:29.559 --> 00:27:32.799
to fill it invite us on the journey. The other

499
00:27:32.839 --> 00:27:38.880
reveal is she's my partner, my wife Janna, and I

500
00:27:39.039 --> 00:27:40.960
hesitated to share that at the beginning because I wanted

501
00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:44.880
people to follow this person unbiased, But to me, it

502
00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:49.079
actually pointed something even more valuable out that in our

503
00:27:49.119 --> 00:27:52.400
relationship with thirty five years, she's been a supporter of

504
00:27:52.400 --> 00:27:55.039
my leadership journey. I've been the one more on the forefront.

505
00:27:55.039 --> 00:27:57.400
She's been in the supporting role of working nonprofits and

506
00:27:57.480 --> 00:28:01.559
supporting our business. And yet here's she was profoundly shaping

507
00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:06.680
what I saw as leadership. And she's not loud, she's

508
00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:10.680
not strong, she's quiet, she connects, she relates, And how

509
00:28:10.799 --> 00:28:15.640
powerful that authentic leadership showed up and how people respected

510
00:28:15.680 --> 00:28:19.759
her for this journey, and it just it was one

511
00:28:19.799 --> 00:28:21.960
of those light bulb moments where you just sometimes have

512
00:28:22.039 --> 00:28:24.519
to get hit in the head again. Hey, that's leadership.

513
00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:28.559
I think that's such an important story to share for

514
00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:30.599
a number of reasons, but also just to also help

515
00:28:30.680 --> 00:28:33.200
invite our listeners and viewers, you know, who maybe haven't

516
00:28:33.240 --> 00:28:34.720
quite stepped in to this or the level if they

517
00:28:34.759 --> 00:28:38.880
want to take that leap, because it's such a powerful story.

518
00:28:38.880 --> 00:28:41.000
You talk about impact and even you look come up.

519
00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:41.599
To sympact you.

520
00:28:42.200 --> 00:28:45.559
It's wonderful, right, it's just wonderful. Well, and I'll show

521
00:28:45.640 --> 00:28:48.000
this just quickly because it also speaks to you know,

522
00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:49.799
accepting the summons.

523
00:28:49.880 --> 00:28:50.039
Right.

524
00:28:50.160 --> 00:28:54.079
So, you know, you and I travel all the time.

525
00:28:54.200 --> 00:28:56.960
We're on airplanes. Many listeners and viewers do as well,

526
00:28:57.400 --> 00:29:00.559
and we all know that situation when we maybe leave

527
00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:03.119
a city a little bit late and we arrived to

528
00:29:03.359 --> 00:29:05.480
our arrive and then you get the announcement that says,

529
00:29:05.519 --> 00:29:07.799
ladies and gentlemen, there are people here with tight connecting flights,

530
00:29:08.079 --> 00:29:10.640
this is your final destination. Please stay seated and let

531
00:29:10.720 --> 00:29:14.519
those get off the plane. And without exception, every human

532
00:29:14.559 --> 00:29:16.920
stands to their feet and starts rushing down the aisle,

533
00:29:17.720 --> 00:29:22.680
and so I started doing this last fall Pete where

534
00:29:23.480 --> 00:29:25.359
I got like, I'd be like in row twelves for

535
00:29:25.400 --> 00:29:28.000
another twenty rows behind me, and we get that message,

536
00:29:28.039 --> 00:29:29.880
and so I would try I started doing this.

537
00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:32.720
I'm like the first time I did, I was like, oh.

538
00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:34.839
Okay, all of you in the back, would of you

539
00:29:35.039 --> 00:29:35.920
have connecting flights?

540
00:29:35.920 --> 00:29:37.160
Could you put your handuff for me?

541
00:29:37.880 --> 00:29:40.119
Okay? And they'd be like, you know, urgently putting their

542
00:29:40.119 --> 00:29:42.440
hand up, and I'm like, ok okay, great. All the

543
00:29:42.440 --> 00:29:44.720
rest of us, we all know it's like, you know,

544
00:29:44.759 --> 00:29:46.960
to be running for that next flight, and we're not

545
00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:49.240
sure if we're going to make it. Let's just oh,

546
00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:51.240
it's so great to see us all working together on this.

547
00:29:51.519 --> 00:29:54.039
Stay seated and let them go. So I'm sitting there

548
00:29:54.079 --> 00:29:55.720
and there was a woman next to me this first time,

549
00:29:55.799 --> 00:29:58.880
big tall woman, clearly an athlete of some kind, and

550
00:29:58.920 --> 00:30:01.839
she is less to this and she's like holding herself rigid,

551
00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:03.920
like waiting for the command of when when.

552
00:30:03.759 --> 00:30:04.960
Can she go? Kind of thing.

553
00:30:05.359 --> 00:30:07.359
People are getting off the plane and they're saying.

554
00:30:07.160 --> 00:30:09.039
Thank you, thank you so much, thank you so much.

555
00:30:09.559 --> 00:30:11.799
And then once everybody's off, what that has to get off?

556
00:30:11.839 --> 00:30:14.200
Then I can start getting off too, and get off

557
00:30:14.240 --> 00:30:17.440
the plane. There's a young woman behind me and she

558
00:30:17.599 --> 00:30:19.799
says to me, you're my hero, and I'm like, that's

559
00:30:19.839 --> 00:30:22.759
all it takes to be a euro these days. And

560
00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:24.720
the cleaning crew had gotten on and they were watching

561
00:30:24.759 --> 00:30:26.200
all this and they were like, man, you should be

562
00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:30.119
on every flight. But but you know, it's so simple, right.

563
00:30:30.160 --> 00:30:32.279
I had been wanting to do this forever and I

564
00:30:32.400 --> 00:30:34.839
finally got to the place that's it.

565
00:30:34.839 --> 00:30:36.000
It's the right thing to do.

566
00:30:36.480 --> 00:30:39.920
And the really cool thing was everybody joined in and

567
00:30:39.960 --> 00:30:42.480
then you know, let's not make them wrong or bad.

568
00:30:42.680 --> 00:30:46.799
Let's celebrate that they're good humans. So easy, right, And

569
00:30:46.839 --> 00:30:49.640
that's then we're also modeling it for other people as well.

570
00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:52.839
But the courage it took you, it did, yeah, to

571
00:30:52.920 --> 00:30:57.519
stand up like that, and you know, have no guarantee

572
00:30:57.519 --> 00:30:58.480
that that was going to work.

573
00:30:58.640 --> 00:31:00.519
Yeah, yeah, And because it could have been.

574
00:31:00.720 --> 00:31:03.000
And if they had gotten up and just try and started,

575
00:31:03.039 --> 00:31:05.240
you know, run and running over me, I mean I

576
00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:08.519
would have still had held strong on that. But anyway, yes,

577
00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:13.559
and so yes, and I recognize it as such, and

578
00:31:13.839 --> 00:31:15.759
I want to live it as such. Right, I do

579
00:31:15.880 --> 00:31:18.359
want to be that human that you know is doing

580
00:31:18.400 --> 00:31:22.039
something to help my fellow people. So let's just let's

581
00:31:22.039 --> 00:31:24.319
take our last break so that our listeners and viewers

582
00:31:24.319 --> 00:31:27.079
can also think about their opportunities to where where could

583
00:31:27.079 --> 00:31:29.599
they step up into the next place of impact and

584
00:31:29.960 --> 00:31:33.279
contribution that maybe they've been beholding for themselves. While we

585
00:31:33.319 --> 00:31:36.319
take this last break, I'm your host, Doctor Lee's Cortes.

586
00:31:36.359 --> 00:31:38.240
We've been on the airic Pete Barons. He's the founder

587
00:31:38.279 --> 00:31:41.000
and CEO of Agile Leadership Journey, where he spent over

588
00:31:41.079 --> 00:31:43.720
three decades of guiding leaders through uncertainty.

589
00:31:44.079 --> 00:31:45.200
We've been getting into some of.

590
00:31:45.200 --> 00:31:48.079
The examples of how you can activate the principles in

591
00:31:48.119 --> 00:31:51.279
his book. After the break, we're going to continue the storytelling,

592
00:31:51.279 --> 00:31:53.119
which will help illuminate what it is we're here to

593
00:31:53.119 --> 00:31:53.440
teach you.

594
00:31:53.519 --> 00:31:54.279
We'll be right back.

595
00:32:09.200 --> 00:32:12.759
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning

596
00:32:12.799 --> 00:32:16.640
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author. She helps companies

597
00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:20.519
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired

598
00:32:20.599 --> 00:32:24.559
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and

599
00:32:24.640 --> 00:32:27.839
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite

600
00:32:27.839 --> 00:32:30.599
a lease to speak to your organization. Please visit her

601
00:32:30.680 --> 00:32:33.920
at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get

602
00:32:33.920 --> 00:32:42.720
your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose

603
00:32:42.839 --> 00:32:46.079
with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or

604
00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:48.920
to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to

605
00:32:48.960 --> 00:32:54.359
Alise A. L Se at elisecortes dot com. Now back

606
00:32:54.400 --> 00:32:55.759
to working on Purpose.

607
00:33:01.400 --> 00:33:03.079
Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to working

608
00:33:03.160 --> 00:33:05.680
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Relie Cortes. As you

609
00:33:05.720 --> 00:33:07.920
know by now, this problem is dedicated to empowering and

610
00:33:07.960 --> 00:33:10.640
inspiring you along your journey to realize more of your potential.

611
00:33:10.960 --> 00:33:12.160
If you want to learn more about how we can

612
00:33:12.200 --> 00:33:14.359
work together and learn about the Gusto Now Academy for

613
00:33:14.480 --> 00:33:17.119
leaders and individuals on various journeys alike, make your way

614
00:33:17.160 --> 00:33:19.839
to Gusto dashnow dot com and then go to the

615
00:33:19.880 --> 00:33:22.000
training tab and you can find the academy there. Hope

616
00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:24.240
to see you on that side if you are just

617
00:33:24.279 --> 00:33:26.359
joining us. My guest is Pete Bearns. He's the author

618
00:33:26.400 --> 00:33:29.319
of Into the Fog Leadership Stories from the Edge of Uncertainty,

619
00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:33.960
which we've been we've been exploring in today's conversation. So next,

620
00:33:34.119 --> 00:33:36.039
what I would love to have you do. I thought,

621
00:33:36.079 --> 00:33:38.200
I really on a number of levels, A felt that

622
00:33:38.319 --> 00:33:41.440
your story of how you were talking about working with

623
00:33:41.480 --> 00:33:44.400
the high performing healthcare tech company that we're dealing with

624
00:33:44.440 --> 00:33:47.359
some problems of collaboration and adaptability. There's so many aspects

625
00:33:47.359 --> 00:33:50.799
of that story that I think are important to share.

626
00:33:51.359 --> 00:33:53.440
One the work that we get to do to help

627
00:33:53.559 --> 00:33:57.160
organizations that then they need this kind of help, but

628
00:33:57.240 --> 00:34:00.000
too just the impact of the story is so incredible,

629
00:34:00.279 --> 00:34:02.759
especially when it comes to leadership and where it came

630
00:34:02.799 --> 00:34:03.720
from in that story.

631
00:34:04.279 --> 00:34:08.960
Yeah, Yeah, I was leading a as you mentioned, a

632
00:34:09.039 --> 00:34:14.800
leadership education program for a really impactful healthcare company. They

633
00:34:14.840 --> 00:34:20.239
were they hire exclusively from the IVY leagues in you know,

634
00:34:20.280 --> 00:34:23.960
in the northeast there, and they prided themselves on the

635
00:34:23.960 --> 00:34:27.840
best and the brightest people, and that showed what was

636
00:34:27.880 --> 00:34:31.000
really interesting though, is as you develop a culture like that,

637
00:34:31.480 --> 00:34:34.239
it's a culture of heroes. It's a culture of individuals,

638
00:34:34.280 --> 00:34:38.000
not a collaborative culture by nature. So we were there

639
00:34:38.079 --> 00:34:41.519
to work a lot with not only leadership development, but

640
00:34:41.960 --> 00:34:48.119
a leadership culture where it's more collaborative and collective than

641
00:34:48.159 --> 00:34:53.480
it is solo adventurers. In this particular session, we're talking

642
00:34:53.480 --> 00:34:57.519
about leadership power, and I mentioned the concept of what's

643
00:34:57.599 --> 00:35:01.599
called the double bind in terms of leadership power that

644
00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:07.159
females face in the workplace. This is the bind between

645
00:35:07.400 --> 00:35:10.480
your role in society as being a nurture and supporter

646
00:35:10.800 --> 00:35:14.480
and the role of leadership, which requires some assertiveness, and

647
00:35:14.519 --> 00:35:18.400
that when women often try to try to find that

648
00:35:18.480 --> 00:35:23.159
balance in this role, they're often seen as say bad words,

649
00:35:23.519 --> 00:35:32.079
bitchy or you know, too emotional. And in this particular moment,

650
00:35:33.320 --> 00:35:38.159
one of the gentlemen yelled out and explicitive and I

651
00:35:38.199 --> 00:35:44.679
was like, oh okay, threw me back, caused me to pause,

652
00:35:46.039 --> 00:35:48.760
partly because I was shocked, partly because I'm like, okay,

653
00:35:48.760 --> 00:35:53.800
where do we take this? And in the story, Rebecca

654
00:35:54.519 --> 00:35:57.719
is the one who shakes and breaks the silence. She

655
00:35:57.920 --> 00:36:04.239
speaks up, authentic about her experience. When she says things

656
00:36:04.440 --> 00:36:07.960
it isn't accepted until a man repeats it, being looked

657
00:36:07.960 --> 00:36:12.800
over in terms of leadership positions. And what was interesting

658
00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:16.559
is I talk about this as this is leadership. This

659
00:36:16.719 --> 00:36:18.559
is the courage to speak into a room that doesn't

660
00:36:18.559 --> 00:36:20.000
want to hear what you have to say, with no

661
00:36:20.079 --> 00:36:24.280
guarantee of what's going to happen next. And what that

662
00:36:24.519 --> 00:36:27.599
opened was a door and other women spoke, and then

663
00:36:27.719 --> 00:36:31.960
other men spoke to the challenge, and I felt like

664
00:36:32.079 --> 00:36:36.079
the individual who yelled the explicitive was left on an island.

665
00:36:36.079 --> 00:36:38.039
I don't think they were ever changed in that session,

666
00:36:38.679 --> 00:36:42.079
but they were definitely felt that they were on the island.

667
00:36:43.239 --> 00:36:51.039
And it's a representation of what both the courage leadership takes,

668
00:36:51.039 --> 00:36:55.360
but the simplicity that leadership can be. Rebecca speaking in

669
00:36:55.400 --> 00:36:59.119
that moment created an opportunity, a door open for others

670
00:36:59.119 --> 00:37:04.000
to follow, and they did not changed, didn't change the

671
00:37:04.039 --> 00:37:05.840
culture on that day, but it changed the direction of

672
00:37:05.840 --> 00:37:06.760
the culture on that day.

673
00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:10.599
What I also want to celebrate about that story too,

674
00:37:10.639 --> 00:37:14.239
that is so important is we started with the podcast

675
00:37:14.360 --> 00:37:16.960
conversation with this in the beginning, and that is the

676
00:37:17.079 --> 00:37:20.519
criticality of ongoing learning and evolution. We have to unlearned things,

677
00:37:20.559 --> 00:37:22.760
we have to learn new things to be effective today.

678
00:37:22.840 --> 00:37:27.679
And you know we are vastly, you know, being outpaced

679
00:37:27.719 --> 00:37:30.599
by all the other changes. So they need to examine

680
00:37:30.599 --> 00:37:33.360
those mindsets and how we behave and respond and react

681
00:37:33.360 --> 00:37:35.679
from those mindsets. It's so, so so critical to be

682
00:37:35.719 --> 00:37:38.519
effective as a leader today, especially the bigger the organization

683
00:37:38.559 --> 00:37:41.880
that you have, So I think that that story has

684
00:37:41.960 --> 00:37:43.760
so much power and potency to it.

685
00:37:44.079 --> 00:37:48.480
Thank you. Yeah, it's definitely one. I'm hearing a lot

686
00:37:49.119 --> 00:37:55.119
from women in leadership positions and describing their entire careers

687
00:37:55.559 --> 00:37:58.840
and how they've had to live through this this this

688
00:37:59.039 --> 00:38:02.239
type of situation, and in the book I couldn't even

689
00:38:02.280 --> 00:38:05.559
speak to it enough. I invited my COEO woman, Tracy

690
00:38:05.599 --> 00:38:08.800
Wilson to speak on my behalf in the book to

691
00:38:08.920 --> 00:38:10.480
help some of that gap too.

692
00:38:11.039 --> 00:38:14.199
Yeah, well, I can appreciate that. I also work with

693
00:38:14.239 --> 00:38:15.800
a lot of those things too in my work too.

694
00:38:15.800 --> 00:38:20.599
It's just it's so pervasive. So there's so many things

695
00:38:20.599 --> 00:38:22.159
that we could still talk about from your book, but

696
00:38:22.199 --> 00:38:23.679
so I'm going to cherry pick a few that I

697
00:38:23.719 --> 00:38:28.000
really really gravitated too. I'd love how you talk about

698
00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:32.679
this idea of leaders recognizing where you are here marker

699
00:38:32.840 --> 00:38:36.599
is placed and and and that is really amazing. And

700
00:38:36.599 --> 00:38:39.360
there's always a disconnect there right between where they think

701
00:38:39.360 --> 00:38:41.400
they are and where their followers think they are, et cetera.

702
00:38:41.960 --> 00:38:46.119
So how how can leaders more adeptly discern where they

703
00:38:46.159 --> 00:38:48.840
think they are versus where their leader or where their

704
00:38:48.840 --> 00:38:50.000
followers think they are.

705
00:38:50.079 --> 00:38:54.639
Sure that story shows up in the construct of inner fog,

706
00:38:54.760 --> 00:38:57.920
and just to provide listeners and watchers a little bit

707
00:38:57.960 --> 00:39:01.320
more context. We often think the fog is an external event,

708
00:39:01.440 --> 00:39:03.800
something outside of us, something we have to navigate, but

709
00:39:03.960 --> 00:39:06.920
just as often it gets inside of our head, between

710
00:39:06.920 --> 00:39:11.480
our ears. This represents our ego, our blind spots, our

711
00:39:11.519 --> 00:39:16.719
assumptions that we make, and these are equally as damaging,

712
00:39:16.880 --> 00:39:20.880
maybe even more so, because it's kind of like on

713
00:39:20.920 --> 00:39:25.159
a humid, rainy day, the windows from the inside fog up,

714
00:39:26.039 --> 00:39:29.880
so what we're seeing we're not actually even seeing, and

715
00:39:29.920 --> 00:39:32.320
so we often think it's fog, but it's actually something

716
00:39:32.360 --> 00:39:34.400
going on inside our heads. So the question that you

717
00:39:34.760 --> 00:39:37.880
have is all right that you are here? Is a

718
00:39:37.880 --> 00:39:40.000
fun little story about a leader I worked with. It's

719
00:39:40.039 --> 00:39:42.719
like I'm an old dog and not really really willing

720
00:39:42.760 --> 00:39:45.639
to learn new tricks. I'm like, well, congratulations on knowing

721
00:39:45.679 --> 00:39:48.400
who you are and what you want. That's great. The

722
00:39:48.440 --> 00:39:50.679
bigger challenge I have as the leaders who think they're

723
00:39:50.719 --> 00:39:54.480
this place when they're really back here, because they're often

724
00:39:54.960 --> 00:39:59.559
in their head they believe they're collaborative, but in their

725
00:39:59.599 --> 00:40:04.280
mind they're just having people agree to them and It's

726
00:40:04.320 --> 00:40:07.039
this really confusing state that a lot of leaders find

727
00:40:07.360 --> 00:40:09.679
where it feels like, yeah, we're doing this together. Yeah,

728
00:40:09.719 --> 00:40:12.719
we're all a consensus, where it's really no, we're just

729
00:40:12.719 --> 00:40:15.800
saying whatever the leader wants us saying whatever the leader

730
00:40:15.800 --> 00:40:20.599
wants to hear. These moments, these blind spots in my

731
00:40:20.840 --> 00:40:25.800
career have only shown up when others have the courage

732
00:40:26.079 --> 00:40:30.679
to say something like the emperor has no clothes to me, Yeah,

733
00:40:31.079 --> 00:40:34.679
somebody else in my career, through a three sixty feedback,

734
00:40:34.719 --> 00:40:37.199
through the courage of a one on one, through whatever

735
00:40:37.239 --> 00:40:40.880
it was said, Pete may not have heard that right,

736
00:40:40.920 --> 00:40:43.960
but this doesn't make sense to me. And only in

737
00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:48.599
those moments was that fog starting to clear up. So

738
00:40:48.679 --> 00:40:51.440
what does that mean for a leader? It means you've

739
00:40:51.480 --> 00:40:54.280
got to create the space for those moments to occur.

740
00:40:54.480 --> 00:40:57.079
You've got to create that psychological safety, which I know

741
00:40:57.119 --> 00:40:59.599
you talk a lot about, in order for others to

742
00:40:59.639 --> 00:41:03.719
be able to break that fog that might be in

743
00:41:03.760 --> 00:41:04.159
your head.

744
00:41:05.119 --> 00:41:07.480
I think that is so powerful. I had Jeff Wetsler

745
00:41:07.519 --> 00:41:10.239
on my podcast some years ago. He wrote a book

746
00:41:10.239 --> 00:41:13.079
called Ask. I think it was but it was developing

747
00:41:13.119 --> 00:41:17.440
this capacity to constantly solicit feedback and make it safe

748
00:41:17.440 --> 00:41:19.280
for people to tell you the truth. So you were

749
00:41:19.360 --> 00:41:22.880
constantly getting feedback about yourself before it became an issue,

750
00:41:23.559 --> 00:41:25.639
and I think that's really really powerful if you can

751
00:41:25.719 --> 00:41:27.599
learn how to do that. But boy, you know, if

752
00:41:27.639 --> 00:41:30.400
you could take in that information about where you are

753
00:41:31.559 --> 00:41:34.760
powerful and speaking of that, I'm not going to let

754
00:41:34.800 --> 00:41:37.639
you go without talking about the kindergarten story. Here, Pete's

755
00:41:37.920 --> 00:41:42.360
got it happened. Sorry, so you know, so listeners and viewers,

756
00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:46.039
Pete shares a story from when he's in kindergarten. His

757
00:41:46.159 --> 00:41:50.599
kindergarten teacher sends a note home to his mom that says, quote,

758
00:41:50.599 --> 00:41:53.880
Pete has become quite a discipline problem lately, challenge is

759
00:41:53.920 --> 00:41:57.239
authority by doing what he wants end quote. And so

760
00:41:57.559 --> 00:41:59.679
you know, you and your mom both seem to recognize

761
00:41:59.679 --> 00:42:02.840
that this is experiments in leadership, and of course in

762
00:42:02.840 --> 00:42:05.639
a funny and revealing way. And of course, what I

763
00:42:05.679 --> 00:42:07.800
love about that is a couple of things. One, I

764
00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:09.599
love that this kind of showed up early in you.

765
00:42:10.119 --> 00:42:11.880
But the other thing I want to celebrate that is

766
00:42:11.880 --> 00:42:13.800
from the vanished point of leadership, is I want all

767
00:42:13.880 --> 00:42:17.119
leaders to do that is to notice this what seems

768
00:42:17.159 --> 00:42:20.400
to be unusual behavior or activity, and look for what's

769
00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:23.039
great about it, not for what's wrong with it, but

770
00:42:23.119 --> 00:42:25.360
what's great about it. And that's one of the.

771
00:42:25.280 --> 00:42:27.880
Things that I think that story also shows.

772
00:42:28.679 --> 00:42:31.639
Yeah, it's one of my favorite stories to tell. It

773
00:42:31.800 --> 00:42:38.000
usually open my keynotes with it as a confession. It's

774
00:42:39.960 --> 00:42:42.719
I want to have a confession here too. I don't

775
00:42:42.719 --> 00:42:45.760
know that my mom necessarily agreed with me that it's leadership.

776
00:42:45.760 --> 00:42:46.679
It may have just been me.

777
00:42:47.159 --> 00:42:50.000
Right, and you didn't say that. You said, yeah, book.

778
00:42:50.079 --> 00:42:54.159
Yeah, At the same time, you're right. When it comes

779
00:42:54.199 --> 00:42:58.719
to this construct of right and wrong. Leaders, the further

780
00:42:58.800 --> 00:43:02.679
they go along their journey often get pretty stagnant in

781
00:43:02.800 --> 00:43:07.239
what those judgments are, especially as we break gender and

782
00:43:07.320 --> 00:43:13.639
we break social cultural as we break generational lines. These

783
00:43:13.679 --> 00:43:19.119
are things where what looks right to a leader comes

784
00:43:19.119 --> 00:43:22.199
across as them judgment and it blocks me from learning.

785
00:43:23.599 --> 00:43:26.320
And so it's these moments, and the fog generates these

786
00:43:26.360 --> 00:43:29.159
all the time. There was a great story that actually

787
00:43:29.199 --> 00:43:32.400
didn't put in the book about Old Navy. The CEO

788
00:43:32.719 --> 00:43:35.760
basically said, our culture is just too much blame, blame, blame,

789
00:43:35.840 --> 00:43:39.079
judge a judge, and it's creating a culture of negativity.

790
00:43:39.199 --> 00:43:41.760
He says, I'm refusing to use the words right and

791
00:43:41.800 --> 00:43:44.880
wrong anymore in any of our assessments of our business

792
00:43:44.880 --> 00:43:47.840
models and results. We can only say what happened and

793
00:43:47.840 --> 00:43:51.440
what do we learn from it. That's the trigger, the

794
00:43:51.480 --> 00:43:53.920
mindset change we have to think about as leaders in

795
00:43:53.960 --> 00:43:58.079
the fog. Judgment hurts, it kills, it stumps, it puts

796
00:43:58.119 --> 00:44:01.880
us backwards. It creates more tension in the fog. But

797
00:44:01.960 --> 00:44:04.440
there is the concept of what is this and how

798
00:44:04.480 --> 00:44:07.400
can we learn from it? And that's incredibly valuable.

799
00:44:08.920 --> 00:44:11.119
Well, so that speaks too. If you could speak just

800
00:44:11.199 --> 00:44:13.840
maybe briefly, i'd this question one more than I wanted to.

801
00:44:13.880 --> 00:44:16.079
I want to get out is just this idea of

802
00:44:16.800 --> 00:44:19.599
letting go. And you know what, what use leaders from

803
00:44:19.679 --> 00:44:23.199
letting go when it's time and so that you're really

804
00:44:23.199 --> 00:44:24.679
speaking to that, how do we let go of this

805
00:44:24.719 --> 00:44:27.039
old behavior, this being, this old wave of relating.

806
00:44:27.880 --> 00:44:31.360
Yeah, leadership is a journey of continuously letting go. And

807
00:44:31.400 --> 00:44:36.000
that's the fear. Is I move from you know, a

808
00:44:36.039 --> 00:44:39.360
line worker into a manager or a manager into a director.

809
00:44:39.400 --> 00:44:41.400
Each one of those steps you're letting go of what

810
00:44:41.599 --> 00:44:44.599
used to be. And one of the interesting things about

811
00:44:44.639 --> 00:44:48.119
letting go that we've learned over time is if I

812
00:44:48.239 --> 00:44:52.000
let go and yet I don't grab something new, I

813
00:44:52.079 --> 00:44:56.039
end up being that hovering parent, that that helicopter manager.

814
00:44:56.679 --> 00:44:59.400
I micromanage because what else am I going to do?

815
00:44:59.639 --> 00:45:01.840
I'm doing doing the same thing you are only at

816
00:45:01.880 --> 00:45:06.360
one step above. That's a very negative relationship as a manager.

817
00:45:06.880 --> 00:45:09.880
What we've learned is if I let go, what am

818
00:45:09.920 --> 00:45:11.800
I grab? What's the next wrong? What is it that

819
00:45:11.840 --> 00:45:13.960
I'm driving on to? And that could be anything. It

820
00:45:14.039 --> 00:45:15.719
might be I want to learn a new skill, I

821
00:45:15.760 --> 00:45:19.280
want to be strategic. I want to focus on the

822
00:45:19.840 --> 00:45:24.440
next generation of technology, whatever that is. Find something so

823
00:45:24.480 --> 00:45:26.599
that you're not doing the exact same thing the people

824
00:45:26.639 --> 00:45:30.719
you're leading, and that's that tends to be. That releases

825
00:45:30.800 --> 00:45:32.719
a little bit of that tension that we feel in

826
00:45:32.800 --> 00:45:34.960
letting go, that I've got a purpose. I still have

827
00:45:35.039 --> 00:45:38.639
something valuable that I'm doing for this organization that wasn't

828
00:45:38.639 --> 00:45:39.639
what I was doing before.

829
00:45:41.920 --> 00:45:46.039
Love it, absolutely, love it, so so inviting. Okay, so

830
00:45:46.079 --> 00:45:48.239
the last formal question I want to ask you, which

831
00:45:48.280 --> 00:45:49.599
is going to bring us back to really that you

832
00:45:49.639 --> 00:45:50.840
know your book and why I wrote it in the

833
00:45:50.840 --> 00:45:51.360
first place.

834
00:45:51.400 --> 00:45:54.000
But to me, this is incredibly timely.

835
00:45:54.079 --> 00:45:56.519
So you say, quote, the real challenge isn't the next

836
00:45:56.559 --> 00:45:59.599
wave of technology, it's the new leadership mindset required to

837
00:46:00.280 --> 00:46:01.239
the wave effectively.

838
00:46:01.840 --> 00:46:02.480
I know I.

839
00:46:02.400 --> 00:46:06.360
Cannot you know, I can't imagine a more apt two

840
00:46:06.440 --> 00:46:08.239
sets of senses than those.

841
00:46:08.519 --> 00:46:12.760
Thank you. Yes. It comes in one of our last chapters,

842
00:46:12.800 --> 00:46:15.480
the Enduring fog, you know, as a reminder number one,

843
00:46:15.599 --> 00:46:20.159
this isn't going away. Number two, Technology is a massive

844
00:46:20.239 --> 00:46:25.960
fog generator. AI specifically today is an incredible fog navigator,

845
00:46:25.960 --> 00:46:28.280
but also a fog generator and what it's doing to

846
00:46:28.360 --> 00:46:33.840
society and workplace culture. And again this is a reminder

847
00:46:33.840 --> 00:46:37.239
to leaders it's not who you are, it's how you

848
00:46:37.280 --> 00:46:39.920
show up in the world that makes the difference. This

849
00:46:40.119 --> 00:46:42.679
is a reminder that technology will always There's always going

850
00:46:42.760 --> 00:46:44.519
to be another wave. There's always going to be yet

851
00:46:44.559 --> 00:46:47.000
another wave crashing. And think of it the ocean, and

852
00:46:47.039 --> 00:46:49.119
these waves will continue to come, and they've come. And

853
00:46:49.159 --> 00:46:51.119
I've been in this business for thirty five years and

854
00:46:51.119 --> 00:46:55.760
we've seen dozens and dozens of technology waves, and each

855
00:46:55.760 --> 00:46:59.400
one of those it's not about the wave of the technology,

856
00:46:59.400 --> 00:47:02.000
it's how we're showing up in the mindset we are

857
00:47:02.559 --> 00:47:04.880
to address it and deal with it and navigate it.

858
00:47:05.559 --> 00:47:07.840
And that's just a lesson for all of us to

859
00:47:07.960 --> 00:47:09.639
take as we carry this board.

860
00:47:10.760 --> 00:47:14.760
Indeed, indeed, well, I'm so grateful that our pass across

861
00:47:14.880 --> 00:47:16.480
that I've got to learn from you from your book,

862
00:47:16.480 --> 00:47:18.639
that you've come on to be able to share your

863
00:47:18.639 --> 00:47:21.320
perspective and bring to lives of these stories so that

864
00:47:21.360 --> 00:47:24.039
people recognize what's in your book and available to them.

865
00:47:25.079 --> 00:47:27.280
You probably know by now that this show is listened

866
00:47:27.320 --> 00:47:30.000
by people around the world, and they tune in to

867
00:47:30.239 --> 00:47:32.519
improve their own leadership. They tune in to better understand

868
00:47:32.519 --> 00:47:34.639
the world of work, to become better at story and

869
00:47:34.679 --> 00:47:36.719
their cultures. What would you like to leave them with?

870
00:47:37.920 --> 00:47:41.880
Yeah, you know, I just maybe say leadership doesn't begin

871
00:47:41.960 --> 00:47:46.360
with clarity. It begins with courage and the choice to

872
00:47:46.440 --> 00:47:50.679
step in even when it's not clear. And so don't

873
00:47:50.760 --> 00:47:54.239
wait for that flog clear, don't wait for permission, have

874
00:47:54.320 --> 00:47:55.800
the courage to step into the fog.

875
00:47:57.320 --> 00:48:00.079
Beautiful way to finish, Pete, Thank you so much. Stay

876
00:48:00.119 --> 00:48:00.280
with me.

877
00:48:00.400 --> 00:48:02.199
Let me just go ahead and tell our listeners and

878
00:48:02.239 --> 00:48:04.840
viewers where to find you. So, listeners and viewers, you're

879
00:48:04.840 --> 00:48:06.400
going to want to learn more about Pete Bearns, the

880
00:48:06.400 --> 00:48:09.000
work that he and his team do at Agile Leadership Journey,

881
00:48:09.320 --> 00:48:11.239
and the book he just wrote, Into the Fog, So

882
00:48:11.280 --> 00:48:13.679
you can start by making your way to the website

883
00:48:13.920 --> 00:48:17.079
Into the fogbook dot com. That's the best way to

884
00:48:17.079 --> 00:48:20.320
find and connect with all that he's up to. Last week,

885
00:48:20.320 --> 00:48:22.039
you give missed the live show, you can always sketch

886
00:48:22.079 --> 00:48:23.880
it be a recorded podcast. We were on air with

887
00:48:23.960 --> 00:48:26.960
doctor Monica Mitchell, who spent decades in a Fortune fifty

888
00:48:27.000 --> 00:48:29.840
company as an executive. We talked about her research and

889
00:48:29.880 --> 00:48:32.559
the area of employee engagement in the era of return

890
00:48:32.639 --> 00:48:35.679
to office in AI ethics. We talked about the case

891
00:48:35.679 --> 00:48:39.920
for return to office mandates, why employees often heartily dislike them,

892
00:48:40.239 --> 00:48:43.199
and some possible ways forward to make them work. Next

893
00:48:43.239 --> 00:48:45.199
week will be on the air with Norman Wolf talking

894
00:48:45.199 --> 00:48:48.559
about his latest book, Leading the Living Organization, which is

895
00:48:48.559 --> 00:48:51.280
the practical leadership guide that brings to life the paradigm

896
00:48:51.280 --> 00:48:54.440
introduced in his first book that organizations are not machines

897
00:48:54.480 --> 00:48:57.760
to be engineered, nor generic living systems. They are living

898
00:48:57.800 --> 00:49:00.760
persons whose outcomes arise from what they believe, how they

899
00:49:00.800 --> 00:49:02.960
relate on what they consistently.

900
00:49:02.400 --> 00:49:03.159
Do see you.

901
00:49:03.239 --> 00:49:06.079
Then let's continue leaning into discovering how to elevate your

902
00:49:06.079 --> 00:49:09.719
operating system as a leader, becoming inspirational, and create destination

903
00:49:09.800 --> 00:49:11.960
workplaces where legendary business takes place.

904
00:49:12.079 --> 00:49:13.199
Let's work on Purpose.

905
00:49:15.920 --> 00:49:18.559
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to

906
00:49:18.599 --> 00:49:22.280
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes,

907
00:49:22.400 --> 00:49:25.719
each week on W four CY. Together, we'll create a

908
00:49:25.719 --> 00:49:30.360
world where business operates conscientiously. Leadership inspires and passion performance

909
00:49:30.440 --> 00:49:33.199
and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning

910
00:49:33.239 --> 00:49:37.039
and purpose they crave. See you there, Let's work on Purpose.