Leaders Have Been Kicked Upstairs: How to Steward Today’s Empowered Workforce

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Any questions or comments should be directed
to those show hosts. Thank you for

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choosing W FORCY Radio. What's Working
on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we

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ponder the answer to this question.
People ache for meaning and purpose at work,

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to contribute their talents passionately and know
their lives really matter. They crave

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being part of an organization that inspires
them and helps them grow into realizing their

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highest potential. Business can be such
a force for good in the world,

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elevating humanity. In our program,
we provide guidance and inspiration to help usher

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in this world we all want Working
on Purpose. Now, here's your host,

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Doctor Release Cortez. Welcome back to
the Working and Purpose program, now

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on air for eight and a half
years. Thanks to tune it again this

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week I'm your host, doctor Elis
Cortez. If we've not met yet,

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I'm a management consultant, organizational logo
therapist, speaker and author. My team

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and I it Elise Cortez and Associates
help companies enliven their operations by articulating their

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purpose and building inspirational leaders and cultures
activated by meeting and purpose to turn those

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companies from a flatline EKG to a
vibrant workplace. There people are intrinsically motivated

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to perform at their best, growner
their vullid potential, and are committed to

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stay and help deliver on the company's
mission. You can learn more about us

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and now we can work together at
Elise Cortez dot com. Now getting in

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today's program. With us today are
the authors of the empathy advantage, leading

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the empowered workforce. We have Heather
McGowan, a future of work strategist,

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thought leader, researcher and author and
a leading voice on the future of work.

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She's transforming mindsets and entire organizations around
the globe with her message about how

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the next phase of work will focus
on tenuous learning and our leadership must shift

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to guide these expeditions. Also with
us as Chris Shipley, who has documented,

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influenced, and predicted the impact of
technology on business society for more than

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thirty years. Today to focuses our
work on the human and organizational challenges in

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the face of technology and economically driven
disruption. Father and Chris, welcome to

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Working on Purpose. It's amazing to
have you on. I want to show

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and to show off this beautiful work. Look at this thing. It is

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just where I do find it remarkable. And Chris, you and I were

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talking about, you know, having
children, what you did here is actually

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harder than bringing your child into the
world, just so you know, because

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I have done both really really amazing
work. So I want to You're welcome.

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You're so welcome. As I said, I'm a huge fan of what

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you've done, and I aligned so
much with your message, so I want

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to get into you. There's so
much in your book that we could cover

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here, but I really want to
talk and start by talking about just how

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radically the workforce has changed, and
I aligned with that terrifically. And you

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really talk about how where, the
why, where and how we work has

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changed forever in that work is almost
unrecognizable, and I find that really interesting.

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You also talk about the different backgrounds, the different generations, five generations

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now in the workplace, and you
talk about how increasingly they're leaders who resist

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this new way of being will be
the ones that struggle. So it could

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you just start by giving us just
a little bit of perspective on how what's

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happened here and just in the last
few years has radically changed the workplace.

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Sure. What happened is, you
know, nobody seems to want to talk

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about the pandemic. When I go
out and give talks, which is my

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primary method of earning a living,
people said to me, yeah, but

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don't talk about the pandemic, and
I think, no, actually, we

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need to talk about the pandemic.
What happened is we had about a thousand

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days of a force social experiment,
and it caused us to see the fragility

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of life, the finiteis of the
time, and that's I'm at home and

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where our loved ones. We're in
isolation, had us for folks who do

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not live alone, had us thinking
is this really what I'm doing with my

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life? And so when people started
asking me initially to give talks on remote

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work, I said, you know, sure, I can pull something together

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for that, no doubt, But
I think we're missing the bigger picture.

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It's not just where we work,
but it's where work fits in our lives.

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And I think it's the bigger discussion. And it brought up five questions.

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Who works The workplace was designed for
a single profile, and that's largely

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a white straight man who had a
wife at home to manage all the careagam

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responsibilities. What we do for work, we still train people largely to do

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routine and predictable tasks, even at
high cognitive loads. How we work,

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we train people mostly to work in
isolation, and we hire people into singular

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jobs when increasingly we're going to work
in collaboration. And then the why we

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work is what really bubbled to the
surface. So it's the existential crisis.

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It's labor shortages that will continue unabated
for decades, and it's it's the entrance

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of gen z into the workplace,
who is not going to compromise in the

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way prior generations have in terms of
what they'll put up with or what's worth

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it for them in the workforce.
So collectively that gives you an empowered workforce

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that wants to work with a sense
of purpose, and if you know how

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to engage them, there's never been
a more exciting time. But if you're

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trying to use the methods and structures
the past prepared, you know, there's

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just so much quotable material in your
book, Ladies, just really so much.

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And one of the things that I
also really found really intriguing was when

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you talk about, of course,
the pandemic. You talk you say that

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plagues reorder society, and you say
they are they are in an existential crisis

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from which survivors emerge fundamentally changed.
Then you go on, you talked about

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in the thirteen hundreds we had the
bubotic bubotic plague, which gave way to

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the Renaissance. The nineteen eighteen influence
of pandemic sparked the Roaring twenties. And

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then you say, the COVID nineteen
has given us the Great Resignation, which

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is a reckoning that started in America, and it has catalyzed significant and rapid

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economic transformation of the workforce since the
greatest since the rise of the Industrial Revolution.

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I think that is so critical,
particularly that because I think that's what

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I tried to do in my book
too, is to really help leaders recognized.

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Look, I mean, the world
is profoundly, fundamentally and irrevocably changed,

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and I think the way that you
did that for us is just really

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dynamic. Chris, you on the
way in on that one. Yeah,

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No, I think that that's right. I think it's important to recognize so

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that the pandemic amplifies so many of
these things that we're already trend lines.

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We were already experiencing a lot of
these behaviors, a lot of these concerns

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and trends that just put a magnifying
glass on it all. And I think

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that it's the point that they're just
made. What got us to that point

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in twenty twenty and the sort of
rethinking that went on for the next thousand

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days. Really the conclusion really is
that you can't go back. You got

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it. What got you here isn't
going to get you where you're going in

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the future. And it is a
great opportunity to really rethink everything about your

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work environment. Yes, and I
really appreciate that. And then and then

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you go on to talk about how
this and there's this massive study of thirty

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thousand people in thirty one countries.
Microsoft's latest work trends index found that many

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of the things workers were accepting in
twenty nineteen, they just simply won't anymore.

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Things like the commute, the cost
of childcare, We're no longer worth

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it. Then you'll also go want
to talk about just how the push for

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productivity is driving work is too exhaustion. So this burnout stuff is real gen

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zs or especially at risk for brunout. So I really thought that too,

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the way that you really depict just
how the force of what has happened here

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over the last whatever it's been fifty
some years has come to come to a

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culmination that again requires some some change. And I think that's worth speaking about

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too, if you would weigh in
on that. Yeah, and when when

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folks ask me to, you know, can we speak about can you give

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a talk on resilient And I've put
together talks on resilience and say, you

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know, you folks seem to want
to go back to twenty nineteen. Let's

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look at how we were doing back
then. We were burnt out, then

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we had mental distress, then we
were disengaged. Then we actually had a

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spike in trust, engagement and productivity
at the height of the pandemic. You

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know, when we were washing our
packages on the front porch, we had

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higher levels of trust and higher levels
of productivity. Now we have lower levels

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of trust, especially trust in leadership, and lower levels of productivity. So

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let's look at that. What you
had there in the height of the pandemic

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because you didn't have a choice,
so you trusted your people, they had

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agency, you gave them autonomy,
and they performed. Why don't we tap

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back into that because it's such a
high correlation with employees that have autonomy.

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Seventy nine percent of employees we have
autonomy are actually engaged higher levels of trust.

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You have a multiple cut, multiple
times, higher levels of performance,

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high performing teams, high performing organizations
are rooted in trust. So those are

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the kinds of things we got to
get back to. And that's what I

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think the opportunity is with the empowered
workforce is figure out how to activate them.

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You're not going to control them with
the command and control stuff in the

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past. You've got to engage them
with intrinsic motivation. I completely agree,

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which is why I'm all about the
meeting and purpose stuff. So I completely

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align with that. And that's one
thing head that you mentioned this, but

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I wanted to go a little bit
deeper on it because it really does speak

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to something important and critical, and
this notion of this this shift from work

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from home and get that autonomy and
trust that you were talking about. It

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allowed workers, as you say,
to find their agency in other words,

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to be activated, to be to
be awakened to what they could actually do.

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And in my view, that's so
much of what's missing inside of organizations

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is that is the capacity creating an
environment where people can be activated on that

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level. Yeah, so I mean, I'm going to draw some pictures because

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those pictures in the book. That's
how before the pandemic we had a smaller

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circle that was called our personal and
our personal life is frankly fodder for our

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eulogy, and we had agency over
it. And we had a bigger circle

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for which the smaller circle was subordinated, which is our professional life, which

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is our quarter for our resume CV
LinkedIn what have you and what happened during

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the pandemic. As these two overlapped, the personal grew a little bit,

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the professional shrank a little bit,
and we had agency and autonomy over both.

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And I think that was a moment
in where people felt a sense of

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I want to work with a sense
of purpose. I have higher levels of

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engagement, I have higher levels of
performance when I'm activated with a sense of

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self expression and performance. And one
of the things we saw between twenty twenty

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one and twenty twenty two, fifty
three percent of people who left their jobs,

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according to Pew Research, went into
a different industry or function or area.

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And I think that's really good news
because that's people saying, you know

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what, I always hated the financial
sector, I love the travel agency,

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or I've always wanted to be a
teacher, whatever it may be. They

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switched to find something that more lines
with their sense of purpose and is a

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sense of self expression for them.
So that's I think where we need to

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get to more often is focusing on
trust, focusing on purpose, focusing on

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self expression, and focusing less on
fixed jobs, and having people attracted to

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your organization because they know they can
learn faster with you than on their own.

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They know that they can express themselves
fully at work with psychological safety,

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and they know they have trust.
And when you give people that, it's

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better than any dollar you could ever
give them. But let's also be really

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clear that the agency bringing people back
to the office. There's not a way

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to quell their agencies. Say you're
back now, I can watch you work,

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I can make you at ten meetings
and all of the things that you

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know we've come to understand are the
trappings of being in a workplace versus in

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a hybrid or even work from home
environment. That agency still exists. People

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might be going into an office,
but there's still in their minds thinking is

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this what I want to be doing? Is this who I want to be

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doing it for? Is this the
work that does give me purpose and meaning?

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And they may not be walking out
or striking, but if you don't

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understand that that agency is there and
it will be used, you are going

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to lose people. You're going to
lose them to underperformance. You're going to

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lose them to quiet quitting, and
you're going to lose them to other organizations

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or other opportunities, other industries where
they feel that they are allowed to be

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a full person at work and where
their agency, where they're their full self

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is to tapped. Their intrinjet motivation
is tapped in their work, and that,

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I think is where you get this
much higher level of performance because people

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are now doing that which gives them
a sense of purpose. Yeah, and

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let me just jump in and say
clearly, we don't have a dog in

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the fight about where work takes place. I don't think we know. I

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think we've had a for social experiments
taught us a bunch of things, but

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I don't think we know where we're
Where we optimize human performance, it may

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be some in, some out,
maybe all out for some, may all

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be all in for others. It
really depends on the job of the task,

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the team fairness. I speak virtually, you know, like this is

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this would be a setup for a
virtual talk, but I speak in person.

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I just got back from Vancouver.
I'm going to Denver next week,

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so there's and I can see it
from that perspective. There's a different experience

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from and in person talk to a
virtual talk. There are advantages to virtual

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ones because there are environments I can't
get to physically, can't get there in

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time, or people don't have the
budget to do it. So when we

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look at work, it's really we
got to figure out how we activate human

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performance. And we have to also
have empathy for the leaders who are in

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place right now, because the leaders
in most organizations do not become leaders during

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the pandemic. They were leaders prior
to the pandemic, and they were successful

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in the arena of the office,
right, And what makes them comfortable?

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If they don't see people, they
get nervous. Right, So we have

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to have empathy for them because they
don't know how to manage a remote team

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or a hybrid team because we haven't
tapped them in and we haven't figured that

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out yet. So we have to
have empathy when we can call it the

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empathy advantage all around, including for
the leaders right now that are struggling,

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and we have to give them the
tools they need to unleash that human performance.

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Completely agree with that, Heather,
and I love that you call your

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book the empathy advantage because we do
need to get invited for that. And

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that's again why I do a lot
of the work that I do, and

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I certainly like you ladies, am
out to try to help create find that

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way forward for how do we actually
well lead and manage the workforce of today

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and tomorrow, because it is rather
from from yesterday. If we look at

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what you say in your book here
that you know this is a pretty bleak

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picture currently that Gallup says that from
twenty twenty two, the Global Engagement Story.

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We found that just twenty one percent
of employees say that they're engaged at

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work, and only a third say
that they are worth thriving in their overall

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well being. In other words,
we have a lot of work to do

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here, you do. And when
you take that even further and you look

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at our issues around burnout, mental
health, mental distress, it's even more

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troubling and isolation. So in the
interesting thing is a couple of surveys,

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three of them actually came out emphasizing
the role that both a job and the

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manager has on people's well being.
So sixty nine percent of people asked said

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that their boss was their greatest influence
over their mental health home, on par

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with their spouster partner and more than
their doctor or therapists. Sixty percent of

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folks and another survey said the job
is the greatest factor affecting their mental health.

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And then a longitudinal study that looked
at how managers affect caregiving. So

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if you are a manager, if
you have a manager who gives you autonomy

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and gives you agency at work and
trusts you, you go home and your

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or warmer and more engaged parent and
as a results, because this was a

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longitudinal study, your children have greater
financial, academic, and social success.

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So we really need to arm these
leaders because the impact is not just the

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workplace in society, but it's the
next generation in the next workforce. Yes,

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completely aligned without Heather, I've been
staying this ripple effect for quite some

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time. Completely aligned. I want
to come with you on your road trip.

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By the way, ladies, this
is fantastic. Let's grab our first

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break. I'm your host, doctor
Elias Quartez. We were on the air

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with Heavy McGowan and Chris Shipley.
They are the authors of the in the

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Advantage Leading the Empowered Workforce. See
with us. We'll be right back.

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Doctor Elise Quartez is a management consultant
specializing in meaning and purpose. An inspirational

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speaker and author, she helps companies
visioneer for a greater purpose among stakeholders and

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develop purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused
cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and

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commitment within the workforce. To learn
more or to fight a lease to speak

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00:17:00.919 --> 00:17:04.440
to your organization, please visit her
at Elise Cortez dot com. Let's talk

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about how to get your employees working
on Purpose. This is working on Purpose

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00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:18.559
with doctor Elise Cortez. To reach
our program today or to open a conversation

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00:17:18.599 --> 00:17:23.039
with a lease, send an email
to a lease a l I se at

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00:17:23.079 --> 00:17:33.319
Elise Cortez dot com. Now back
to working on Purpose. Thanks for sting

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00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:36.880
with us, and welcome back to
Working on Purpose. I'm your host,

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00:17:36.880 --> 00:17:40.680
doctor Elise Cortez, as I'm dedicated
to helping create a world where people realize

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the potential at work, are led
by inspirational leaders that help them find and

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contribute their greatness and would your business
that better is the world? I keep

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writing my own books. One of
my latest came out in March of twenty

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twenty three. It's called The Great
Revitalization. How activating meeting and purpose can

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radically enliven your business and it helps
leaders understand what today's workforce really wants and

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then offers twenty one best practices to
equip them to provide it through their leadership

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and culture. You learn more about
my books at at least cortez dot com

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and buy them on Amazon or wherever
you find your favorite booksellers. If you're

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just now joining the program. My
guests are Heather McGowan, a future of

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Work strategist, thought leader, researcher
and author in leading voice on the future

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of work, and Chris Shipley,
who focuses her work on the human and

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organizational challenges in a face of technology
and accountanly driven disruption. So let's pick

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up where we were again. There's
so many things we could talk about in

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your book that are so worth talking
about. But one thing that I want

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to go to next, which I
was really really shaken by in your book.

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I did not know this at all, is you talk about You say,

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by twenty nineteen, the US federal
hourly minimum wage had been stuck at

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seven dollars and twenty five cents for
a decade. You say, had them

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minimum wage kept pace with inflation,
hourly workers would be making twenty four dollars

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an hour. Had wages kept pace
with productivity, the hourly rate would be

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twenty six dollars. But wages didn't
keep pace. And so I think about,

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gosh, you know this, this
is incredible, No wonder we're having

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such an issue here. We saw
so many people leaving those jobs during the

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pandemic. But if you could comment
a bit on this, how in the

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world could this possibly have happened,
well, we would we had enough workers

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to fill those jobs so that we
could continue to keep those those wages compressed.

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And then we're seeing the way labor
shortage now and what is effectively a

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collective strike. And we've seen I
think a lot of places it's nowhere near

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where it should be. But we're
seeing wages in the sixteen seventeen eighteen dollars

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an hour, and there are some
parts of the country where they're fighting for

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fifteen as the federal minimum wage we
ought to be given. How along it

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takes us to win these fights.
We ought to be fighting for thirty now,

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and because it's gonna take a decade
to get there, you know,

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So I think some of the inflation
we're experiencing will persist a bit because I

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don't think the wages are going to
go back down, nor should they Listen.

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The argument as always, well,
we can't raise the minimum wage because

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it's going to affect small businesses,
and small businesses won't be able to survive

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if they have to their employees a
living wage, and so their employees work

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in a state of misery, often
at multiple jobs, in order to just

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patch together a living meaning they don't
have the income to actually buy the goods

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and services of those small businesses.
So there's this sort of specious argument that

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says if we pay people more,
we'll go out of business, and a

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lot of that I think is just
run around this this you know, idea

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that capitalism accrues value to the to
the owners and people are treated like cogs

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and a wheel, and I think
that fun there's a fundamental awareness that labor

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is not valued as as a human
capacity, but is a resource, as

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an asset, as a something to
be used up. And I think this

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is what you know, we go
back to the discussion on agency. This

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is what people are understanding. Now, Wait a minute, I'm worth more

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than twenty five or even fifteen dollars
an hour. I'm not going to work

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in this role that doesn't honor the
value I contribute. And I think we're

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at an approaching a tipping point where
workers are going to just say, listen,

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it's not you go fight all you
want in DC that's going to take

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ten years. How there's absolutely right, or you can just recognize for the

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good of your business and our economy
generally, we need to reshift the balance

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and in our economy in capitalism,
and treat human beings like human beings,

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not as chattel labor that can simply
be replaced because we're just not in that

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place anymore. Yeah, And I
think that's only possible because of the labor

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shortages. If you have a labor
surplus, you'd never win that argument.

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One of the other things that came
up, and this was somewhere in the

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middle of the pandemic, one of
Edelman trust barometers found that customers were looking

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more and more at the brands they
bought and how they treated their employees.

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So if you were treating you were
right by your employees and keeping them safe

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during the pandemic and paying them fairly
or paying them not to work in the

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industries that were shut down, people
were more likely to trust that support those

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brands. So I saw that as
a as a bright spine, because we

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either have to have the consumer push
or we have to have a labor shortage,

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and then we had for a little
bit we had both. I'd see

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a little bit less on the consumer
stiff, but the labor shortages continue so

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much there to be able to delve
into. I talked a little bit about

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that in my book as well,
But as a social scientists too, I

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really really fascinate with all ends that
you that you circuits here. And we've

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already talked about the wear of work
here, but when I want to get

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to next that I thought was really
compelling about what your rote, ladies,

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is you talk about how, of
course we're so long we've centered on lives,

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on our jobs. That's so true, where we work determined, you

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know, where we lived, where
our kids went to school, with whom

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we socialize, all those kind of
things. What I find fascinating though,

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is what you then say is what's
happened now is we want to build our

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lives around belong in community. So
we were settling our homes in our places

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to fulfill our physical and emotional needs, and then layering in our jobs.

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You know, working remotely, you're
finding work that is more purpose aligned in

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the place we want to be.
I find that incredibly compelling that the way

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that you have written about that you
know, this idea of what you mentioned

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that the circles before, Heather,
but if you would speak a bit about

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this, this more this calling for
belonging and community here, sure, so

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the circles that you took about and
all going to draw them in the air

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again. So, first you had
your job, whatever your job was located,

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that meant the geography in which you
lived, and you've built the layers

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around that from your spouse's job most
likely, because we're most mostly too family

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incomes two income families. Where you
bought your home, which was usually a

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school system and real estate decision,
and then out of that you sort of

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accidentally got community and belonging and now
putting community and belonging at the center,

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and then the job on the outer
edge. I say to companies all the

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time because that's what I do all
day long. I will do we will

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make better value when work fits the
right place in our lives. So when

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you get people who are not burnt
out and not lonely and not exhausted and

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enriched by their community and thriving because
of the environments that they're in, they'll

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bring that into the work that they
do, especially when it's purpose aligned in

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its self expression. Agreed, you
know. So one of the things I

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wrote about in my book is I
live here close in East Dallas, and

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I have this big, huge bay
window in front living area, and I

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during the pandemic I literally saw moving
caravans and reconnection. What I saw was

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the adults walking along, sipping on
some kind of a beverage. The kids

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were happily rolling along on a bicycle
or a skateboard or whatever, and that

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the pets were happily coming along.
And it was something I had never seen

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before and it was magical. Yeah, we got we had a collective pause

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button moment. My only concern right
now is we seem to be losing many

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of the things we learned in that
moment, you know, if we looked

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at it and delve into politics.
Really but we became more di I hated

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during this rather than united. But
we did depressing to me. But we

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had moments of community and smaller scale, like in bigger scale in terms of

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how we've up and we see each
other as other. I see more so

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on the community level, on the
street level and the neighborhood level. We

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saw a bit more cohesion, and
I was hoping that it would be sort

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of a contagion that would grow from
there. And that trust that we saw

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employees have with their people, I
was expecting and hoping that to be a

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contagion as well. So one of
our messages is why In one of my

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messages when I'm out there is why
are we not going back? Why are

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we missing the learning in this crisis? Yeah, and so one of the

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pleasures we had in writing this book
was talking to David Allison, who's written

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a book called Value Graphics, and
he argues that marketers look at things like

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gender and age and income and zip
code to figure out how to segment markets.

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But at the end of the day, no matter how you're segment them

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about, you'll reach about ten percent
with your message. But if you look

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at what people value, and he's
interviewed three quarters of a million people around

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the world, you can very clearly
understand what motivates people. And there are

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you know, it changes from region
to region what's top and bottom, but

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there are about fifty six fifty eight
values that people share around the world,

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regardless of culture, in any of
the demographic data. Interestingly, belonging is

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always in near the top of those
lists, regardless of where you are in

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the world. I think what's happened
is that if you recognize it, belonging

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also taps into our very primal sense
of tribalism, right, and so if

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I can belong to a community of
people in Dallas who are willing to take

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the kids for a walk and have
their nightly cocktails out on the street and

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wave and belonged to this neighborhood going
through this crisis together. That's a very

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sweet thing. I can also use
belonging is a way to separate people by

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grievances. I can use belonging to
separate people by all sorts of things.

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And I think that belonging is a
tool for leaders to say, what what

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do I want my people to belong
to? Not to be a family?

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I think that's just that language is
not outstated organization. Right. We're not

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a family. We are people that
come to work. But if we can

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belong to our work in a way
that we have ownership of it, that

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we feel a sense of shared purpose, that we have a shared commitment to

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one another because we're all working toward
a shared goal, that's a magic for

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opening this sort of intrinsic motivation to
come to work and be part of something

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that's that's special. And I think
those are the kinds of things that leaders

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need to be looking for, not
this sort of how do I drive more

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productivity and get more widgets out of
my folks. It's uh, you know,

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how do I create an environment where
people feel like this is where they

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want to be? And that's where
you really where I saw you speak to

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00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:07.359
this notion of moving away from designing
workplaces and designing people places, and I

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really appreciated that. And then you
go on to say, these people places

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a space and structure where employees come
together to learn, collaborate, and get

407
00:28:15.599 --> 00:28:18.839
the needed resources to do the work
that they do either at home or some

408
00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:22.119
other place, which is a paradigm
shift. And again, all three of

409
00:28:22.200 --> 00:28:26.160
us are working together to try to
help equip leaders of the future to do

410
00:28:26.200 --> 00:28:29.759
this. But I think even just
saying that this is not a workplace,

411
00:28:29.799 --> 00:28:32.720
it's a people place, it's a
great thing. And Chris, no surprise,

412
00:28:33.079 --> 00:28:37.559
what you just elucidated there, of
course takes what is happening in the

413
00:28:37.599 --> 00:28:41.799
diversity, equity, inclusion, and
now belonging space to a whole other level.

414
00:28:41.880 --> 00:28:45.359
You just created something much bigger there
than I've ever heard anybody actually articulate

415
00:28:45.400 --> 00:28:51.720
around the space of belonging. So
thank you again for that brilliance. Yeah,

416
00:28:51.759 --> 00:28:53.480
and you know, since we wrote
the book, Seth Godin's come up

417
00:28:53.519 --> 00:28:56.759
with a book called The Song of
Celimfication. Yes, I'm reading it now.

418
00:28:57.160 --> 00:29:02.119
Yeah, And if you're in through
the introduction party goes through the survey

419
00:29:02.160 --> 00:29:06.000
he did with ten thousand people in
ninety countries on the best job they've ever

420
00:29:06.039 --> 00:29:08.880
had, and he gave them a
predescribed list of things, so it was

421
00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:11.799
you know, it could it could
have some cohesion to it. Which I

422
00:29:11.799 --> 00:29:15.759
think it's interesting is is it the
bottom of the list or the ten things

423
00:29:15.759 --> 00:29:18.039
we tend to put at the top
of the list, and we're designing a

424
00:29:18.119 --> 00:29:19.839
job which were I got paid a
lot, I got to travel, I

425
00:29:19.839 --> 00:29:22.559
got to tell people what to do, it wasn't difficult, and I got

426
00:29:22.599 --> 00:29:27.160
fired. Those are the bottom reasons. The top reasons are I surprised myself

427
00:29:27.160 --> 00:29:32.200
with what I could accomplish. I
could work independently, the team built something

428
00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:36.119
important, people treated me with respect. And really what we're talking about is

429
00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:38.359
people are looking for four things and
working. They're looking for growth, they're

430
00:29:38.400 --> 00:29:41.839
looking for autonomy, they're looking for
achievement, and they're looking for respect.

431
00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:45.799
And imagine the world that we could
live in if we design jobs that way

432
00:29:47.319 --> 00:29:51.319
right right well, and then to
go on further, I thought This was

433
00:29:51.319 --> 00:29:53.400
a really interesting too. You talk
about Roger Martin's work as well, and

434
00:29:53.480 --> 00:29:59.720
this idea of organizing people not around
jobs but around projects really interesting and that

435
00:30:00.200 --> 00:30:03.559
to me spoke to something that I
had on some people on talking about the

436
00:30:03.599 --> 00:30:07.920
idea of holocricy leading through holocricy.
That was really interesting. Could you speak

437
00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:11.799
a bit more to this idea of
organizing work around projects but not jobs.

438
00:30:11.960 --> 00:30:15.880
Yeah, I mean, we tend
to work around jobs, and a job

439
00:30:15.960 --> 00:30:19.200
is a box that's generally defined by
the last occupant, so it's filled with

440
00:30:19.319 --> 00:30:23.160
bias and irrelevant information, but we
fill it. And by the time we

441
00:30:23.200 --> 00:30:26.440
fill a job, if you look
at the speed of change in the time

442
00:30:26.440 --> 00:30:30.079
it can take to do that,
most of what you're looking for is probably

443
00:30:30.119 --> 00:30:34.240
no longer relevant. So we end
up with these people who are sort of

444
00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:38.119
misfit for the job we used to
be searching for. So if we could

445
00:30:38.119 --> 00:30:42.759
attract people around a sense of agency, a sense of purpose, appensis of

446
00:30:42.839 --> 00:30:47.920
shared values, a desire to learn, a desire to grow, and then

447
00:30:47.960 --> 00:30:52.480
some fundamental skills and literacy so that
they can enter the first few tasks you

448
00:30:52.559 --> 00:30:56.880
have them to do at first few
projects, then they can go on what

449
00:30:56.039 --> 00:31:00.279
rid Hoffmann called tours of duty.
It was just another way of talk with

450
00:31:00.359 --> 00:31:02.799
some of the things that Roger talked
about. And if you looked at you

451
00:31:02.799 --> 00:31:07.359
know, things like management consulting firms
or innovation strategy groups. People who learn

452
00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:10.920
them have a functional role, you
know, marketing and design and engineering and

453
00:31:11.079 --> 00:31:14.559
what have you, but they swarm
to a project and they're on a project

454
00:31:14.680 --> 00:31:17.720
for a period of time. And
I think most of our work is going

455
00:31:17.799 --> 00:31:18.960
to move more that way, especially
when we hand off more and more to

456
00:31:19.079 --> 00:31:23.039
technology. We're going to have people
in these collaborative explorations where you're going to

457
00:31:23.119 --> 00:31:26.039
go on tours and you're going to
swarm to the project, and then you're

458
00:31:26.039 --> 00:31:29.799
going to go back. You might
be on the bench and do some learning,

459
00:31:29.799 --> 00:31:33.640
and you'll swarm to the next project. I love the way you describe

460
00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:37.240
that, how they're it's it's so
compelling. Let's let our listeners and viewers

461
00:31:37.240 --> 00:31:40.559
think on that for a second as
we grab our last break. I'm your

462
00:31:40.559 --> 00:31:44.079
host Doctor at Least. Cortez were
on the air with Heather McGowan and Chris

463
00:31:44.079 --> 00:31:48.640
Shipley, who are the authors of
the Empathy Advantage leading to Empowered Workforce stick

464
00:31:48.720 --> 00:32:07.720
with us. We'll be right back. Doctor Elise Cortez is a management consultant

465
00:32:07.720 --> 00:32:12.759
specializing in meaning and purpose. An
inspirational speaker and author. She helps companies

466
00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:17.160
visioneer for a greater purpose among stakeholders
and develop purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused

467
00:32:17.160 --> 00:32:22.039
cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance,
and commitment within the workforce. To learn

468
00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:25.759
more or to invite a lease to
speak to your organization, please visit her

469
00:32:25.799 --> 00:32:30.240
at Elise Cortez dot com. Let's
talk about how to get your employees working

470
00:32:30.319 --> 00:32:40.079
on purpose. This is working on
Purpose with doctor Elise Cortez. To reach

471
00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:44.880
our program today or to open a
conversation with a Lease, send an email

472
00:32:44.960 --> 00:32:50.599
to elease a l I se at
Elise Cortez dot com. Now back to

473
00:32:50.759 --> 00:32:59.279
working on Purpose. Thanks for staying
well us and welcome back to working on

474
00:32:59.359 --> 00:33:01.440
purpose on your doctor at least Quartez. I mentioned in the last break.

475
00:33:01.480 --> 00:33:05.759
My latest book is called The Great
Vitalization, How activating meeting a purpose can

476
00:33:05.839 --> 00:33:09.319
radically enliven your business. I wrote
that actually for leaders to be able to

477
00:33:09.400 --> 00:33:13.240
understand what's happening in the workforce,
like Heather and Chris have been talking about

478
00:33:13.240 --> 00:33:15.599
as well. I also added an
assessment on my website that you can actually

479
00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:20.200
go through and look and see to
what extent our easier leadership and culture meeting

480
00:33:20.200 --> 00:33:22.960
today's workforce. You can find it
at at least cortez dot com. All

481
00:33:23.039 --> 00:33:25.839
right, Heather and Chris, let's
come back. We have just our last

482
00:33:25.839 --> 00:33:29.440
segment here, and I want to
continue what you were saying there before the

483
00:33:29.480 --> 00:33:32.839
break. Heather. This idea of
you know about the job descriptions and you

484
00:33:32.839 --> 00:33:36.759
actually have a segment and there to
fire the job description, which I think

485
00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:39.119
is great. And what I like
about what you're putting forth instead of a

486
00:33:39.240 --> 00:33:47.519
job description is to the practice you
want to actually hire fill work around outstanding

487
00:33:47.599 --> 00:33:52.759
people instead. That is really really
compelling and definitely something on its side as

488
00:33:52.759 --> 00:33:57.519
well on its ear as well.
How in the world could organizations actually start

489
00:33:58.400 --> 00:34:02.799
creating work and jobs around outstanding people. I have to start by saying it's

490
00:34:02.799 --> 00:34:10.000
not easy organizations who've done it to
some extent. It works better in smaller

491
00:34:10.039 --> 00:34:15.239
organizations or smaller divisions. It's hardest
scale because it's so much easier in a

492
00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:19.440
large scaling organization to say this job
does these tasks and fits under this person.

493
00:34:19.519 --> 00:34:22.800
And that's how you run it.
But when you look at increasingly how

494
00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:28.760
we're going to be facing much more
uncertainty, imperfect information, and rapid pivots,

495
00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:31.119
then it's really hard. Because you've
got these people who know how to

496
00:34:31.159 --> 00:34:34.880
do certain tasks, what do you
do when they're relevant? And I think

497
00:34:34.880 --> 00:34:38.679
we've proven that the spill and film
model doesn't really work. When you lay

498
00:34:38.679 --> 00:34:44.519
out large swaths to the workforce who
hire new and shinier skills, you've got

499
00:34:44.559 --> 00:34:50.400
a compression of enthusiasm and motivation and
performance for some period of time, not

500
00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:52.920
just with the people who left,
with the people who stay. Who kind

501
00:34:52.920 --> 00:34:54.840
of wonder one of my next and
two is this how they treat people?

502
00:34:54.920 --> 00:34:59.280
And you know, I'm not really
motivated anymore. So we have to come

503
00:34:59.360 --> 00:35:04.960
up with a different way of retaining
and repurposing people because the organizations that repurpose

504
00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:09.599
people have higher levels of engagement and
higher levels. Yeah, and just to

505
00:35:09.639 --> 00:35:14.880
reinforce what how they're saying a moment
ago about job descriptions. Most job descriptions

506
00:35:14.920 --> 00:35:20.280
are written for the past, what
we needed back then. They're very traditional,

507
00:35:20.400 --> 00:35:22.480
right, we don't think about how
do we hire people for what we

508
00:35:22.519 --> 00:35:27.719
don't even know we need yet?
And so there you're not hiring for specific

509
00:35:27.760 --> 00:35:32.719
skills necessarily. You might be hiring
for a capacity to understand the world marketing,

510
00:35:32.840 --> 00:35:37.800
or be an engineer, or you
certain skill sets at large, but

511
00:35:37.880 --> 00:35:45.000
you're really wanting to investigate what is
someone's capacity to learn, to collaborate,

512
00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:49.239
to be part of a team,
to be okay with not knowing something and

513
00:35:49.320 --> 00:35:52.800
figuring it out. Those are not
typical interview questions, But we have to

514
00:35:52.840 --> 00:35:57.559
reframe what did this person? What
has this person done in the past?

515
00:35:57.719 --> 00:36:00.800
Great, that might be good for
us in the future because we don't know

516
00:36:00.599 --> 00:36:07.920
to think about what is this person's
capacity to adapt and learn and to engage

517
00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:13.440
with our team to discover new opportunities. Yeah, and if I can just

518
00:36:13.480 --> 00:36:15.079
grab onto that. I also think
we need to do a far, far

519
00:36:15.159 --> 00:36:20.960
better job at internal mobility. We
tend to think somebody externally is more valuable

520
00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:24.880
than somebody internally, and we don't
look beyond the things that show up often

521
00:36:25.039 --> 00:36:30.559
on CVS and LinkedIn. I remember
I was working at a university and there

522
00:36:30.639 --> 00:36:32.760
was somebody in the office in which
I was working well, I wanted to

523
00:36:32.760 --> 00:36:37.199
put on my team and elevate who
had not finished her degree yet. And

524
00:36:37.440 --> 00:36:40.920
universities have a lot of places to
have it biased about the Certainly universities do

525
00:36:40.960 --> 00:36:45.599
because that's the business they're in.
But I also had discovered that she raised

526
00:36:45.599 --> 00:36:49.119
triplets and that her husband was gone
off and for work, so she often

527
00:36:49.199 --> 00:36:52.000
raised triplets by herself. Wow,
And I said, there's nothing that's going

528
00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:55.000
to come up that she can't handle
better than any of us, regardless of

529
00:36:55.000 --> 00:37:00.840
our seriously. So I didn't end
up eventually getting me on her, getting

530
00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:01.920
her on my team, and now
she's at you know, in a senior

531
00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:07.280
leadership position at the university. But
those are the kinds of things that we

532
00:37:07.320 --> 00:37:09.519
need to look for, particularly when
it comes to women who often leave the

533
00:37:09.559 --> 00:37:14.199
workforce to raise their children and then
they come back at a lower rung on

534
00:37:14.239 --> 00:37:15.840
the bladder, where I think they
should come back at a much higher level,

535
00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:20.480
because if you've raised a human,
and if you've raised more than human

536
00:37:20.639 --> 00:37:24.199
human at once, you are more
than equipped to handle much of the stuff

537
00:37:24.199 --> 00:37:29.039
and the s up at work.
I love that Heather so really focusing on

538
00:37:29.079 --> 00:37:32.960
the full human right and all of
his or her element. It's just so

539
00:37:32.960 --> 00:37:37.800
so important. That also goes for
a military experience as well. I mean

540
00:37:37.800 --> 00:37:39.760
there's a lot of a lot of
things that we're not looking closely enough for

541
00:37:39.800 --> 00:37:45.400
because in this BUCA or bratt rupt
world, there's all the new acronyms for

542
00:37:45.559 --> 00:37:49.719
volatile and certain complex and ambiguous.
We need to look and tap into those

543
00:37:49.760 --> 00:37:54.199
skill sets that people develop in real
time out of out of necessity. Yeah,

544
00:37:54.239 --> 00:38:00.079
and I like how you're talking about
really a new model and UNIVERSI on

545
00:38:00.199 --> 00:38:02.400
work and jobs, etc. And
I like how you're really focused on an

546
00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:08.119
outcome focused collaboration among people of different
and complementary skills who come together focused on

547
00:38:08.119 --> 00:38:13.039
a defined objective. And I think
what I love also about that is that

548
00:38:13.159 --> 00:38:16.679
again we're moving away from that whole
I focused on presenteeism to productivity, and

549
00:38:16.719 --> 00:38:21.400
I know we need a better vehicle
to deliver that for our leaders, and

550
00:38:21.400 --> 00:38:23.639
of course, like you, I'm
out to support them too because it's this

551
00:38:23.760 --> 00:38:28.519
is what we know presenteeism. But
I really appreciate that whole notion of outcome

552
00:38:28.519 --> 00:38:32.679
focused collaboration. Can you speak a
bit more to that, Yeah, I

553
00:38:32.679 --> 00:38:37.039
mean, even if you look at
this way outside the traditional bound. I

554
00:38:37.079 --> 00:38:42.599
remember reading a study and it was
back in like the nineties that looked at

555
00:38:42.639 --> 00:38:50.280
the efficiency of drug based gangs and
how they organized and operated in a way

556
00:38:50.320 --> 00:38:53.360
that was very efficient, more so
than what you learn at Harbor business.

557
00:38:54.119 --> 00:39:00.360
So we sometimes have to who are
we going to go, yeah, finds

558
00:39:00.039 --> 00:39:04.159
and I wouldn't encourage that because they
think, you know, I'm not encouraging

559
00:39:04.159 --> 00:39:08.039
illegal activity or some of the things
that happen in those environments. But there's

560
00:39:08.079 --> 00:39:13.119
sort of an efficiency to things that
we learn in extreme environments, whether it's

561
00:39:13.400 --> 00:39:17.320
the military, parent raising or being
in a gang, yeah, or even

562
00:39:17.360 --> 00:39:21.760
just being in the pressure of an
organization that's continuously changing, which is what

563
00:39:21.800 --> 00:39:28.920
it's doing. And I think we
talk about things like presenteees and productivity because

564
00:39:28.920 --> 00:39:32.440
these are things that we can measure, or how hard time really embracing the

565
00:39:32.480 --> 00:39:37.840
idea of what is really performance?
What does it mean for our team to

566
00:39:37.840 --> 00:39:42.440
come together, I perform well,
to achieve some goal together, to recognize

567
00:39:42.440 --> 00:39:47.559
an opportunity to go forward together when
these new opportunities arise. So we need

568
00:39:47.599 --> 00:39:52.880
to find better metrics so that we
can measure the things that matter. Agreed,

569
00:39:53.000 --> 00:39:57.719
Absolutely, agreed, and I appreciate
that where all of us and back

570
00:39:57.719 --> 00:40:00.000
to your point, how they're early
on is being empathetic toward our leaders who

571
00:40:00.039 --> 00:40:05.440
are trying to try their best to
steward this This workforce in helping them find

572
00:40:05.480 --> 00:40:08.480
their way is important. And even
moving away from you also mentioned in your

573
00:40:08.480 --> 00:40:12.960
book, is moving away from that
the long tenured roles, the concept of

574
00:40:13.000 --> 00:40:16.840
lifetime employment to shorter engagements. Right, the idea that a project might require

575
00:40:16.840 --> 00:40:21.559
two to three years of concentrated effort, And this to me sounded an awful

576
00:40:21.559 --> 00:40:24.440
lot like what you see in you
know, consulting companies. So I thought

577
00:40:24.440 --> 00:40:28.639
that was kind of interesting to think
about too, which you speak to what

578
00:40:28.719 --> 00:40:32.039
that might look like in an organization
to focus more on that sort of a

579
00:40:32.480 --> 00:40:36.679
concept. Yeah, And I think
this sort of brings back the best language

580
00:40:36.679 --> 00:40:38.840
I have for is is the Reid
Hoffmann's concept of towards the duty. So

581
00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:43.360
it's not stay with an organization because
a lot of people can stay with one

582
00:40:43.440 --> 00:40:47.400
organization for a very long time but
move around to different projects in different divisions.

583
00:40:47.880 --> 00:40:52.360
And so I think the real focus
there is what are you learning?

584
00:40:52.400 --> 00:40:54.800
What are you contributing? Should you
still be in this role, is a

585
00:40:54.920 --> 00:40:59.760
time for you to move to another
role? Are we continuing to develop your

586
00:40:59.760 --> 00:41:02.079
skill? Where we continue even to
engage you because the models we had in

587
00:41:02.119 --> 00:41:06.239
the past were basically like, you
know, we took somebody, say they

588
00:41:06.239 --> 00:41:09.239
were an engineer or a salesperson,
and if they were good at it,

589
00:41:09.480 --> 00:41:13.920
we elevated them out of the position
they were good at into a position of

590
00:41:14.000 --> 00:41:17.079
management they may or may not have
wanted to have. And we selected people.

591
00:41:17.519 --> 00:41:22.719
I often let people self select based
upon sometimes ego and insecurity. They

592
00:41:22.800 --> 00:41:27.320
felt better being the boss. And
so we picked people who could you know,

593
00:41:27.440 --> 00:41:31.800
drive productivity bitmiopically, sometimes with domination, fear or even humiliation. They

594
00:41:31.840 --> 00:41:37.280
could make you know, they could
be unquestioned experts who could make decisions in

595
00:41:37.360 --> 00:41:39.559
certainty. And if you just look
at those two sets of factors right now,

596
00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:44.920
they're liabilities because most people are managing
teams of people who have skills and

597
00:41:44.960 --> 00:41:47.840
knowledge that they do not, so
they can't be an unquestioned expert making a

598
00:41:47.880 --> 00:41:52.960
decision in certainty. And a leader
who is a little bit insecure and leads

599
00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:57.880
with the domination, fear or even
humiliation. That's going to backfire on this

600
00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:04.360
workforce because it's this work is looking
for people who are authentic and vulnerable who

601
00:42:04.400 --> 00:42:07.280
trust them. So the leadership profile, which has been wrong for a long

602
00:42:07.320 --> 00:42:12.159
time, really did a one eight
out of necessity over the last couple of

603
00:42:12.239 --> 00:42:19.760
years. Oh so I again that
goes back to having empathy for those that

604
00:42:19.800 --> 00:42:22.400
are trying to actually stuarse organizations.
And we would be remiss if we didn't

605
00:42:22.400 --> 00:42:25.519
say a little bit more about this
notion of hybrid work. I know that

606
00:42:25.559 --> 00:42:30.239
if a lot of organizations and leaders
are really struggling with that. And one

607
00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:32.079
of the things again that I appreciated
about what you talk about in your book,

608
00:42:32.079 --> 00:42:37.119
and you mentioned Roger Merrin again as
well, but also you talked about

609
00:42:37.119 --> 00:42:40.039
this notion of Mark what Mark Crowley
said in May of twenty twenty two a

610
00:42:40.079 --> 00:42:46.639
podcast interview looking to actually create curated
experiences for people, but I found incredibly

611
00:42:46.679 --> 00:42:51.440
compelling. One I will say that
one thing I've gotten from being in the

612
00:42:51.440 --> 00:42:57.400
pandemic is the importance that it seems
to have immersed of a focus on experience

613
00:42:57.480 --> 00:43:01.119
as something really central for people.
So providing the you know, what's the

614
00:43:01.159 --> 00:43:05.199
experience of actually being in the office, and so could you say a little

615
00:43:05.239 --> 00:43:09.079
something about this notion of curated experiences
when it comes to hybrid and our leaders

616
00:43:09.079 --> 00:43:15.280
can support that or steward that fascinating
concept Yeah, too much of too much

617
00:43:15.280 --> 00:43:20.079
of the hybrid work has been again
counting things that we think we can count.

618
00:43:20.360 --> 00:43:22.960
How many times does somebody swipe into
the building, how many hours are

619
00:43:22.960 --> 00:43:24.960
they there? You need to be
their X number of days a week or

620
00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:30.079
a month. And you know if
your days are Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday,

621
00:43:30.280 --> 00:43:32.800
or Monday Friday or Monday Tuesday Friday, whatever it may be, if

622
00:43:32.800 --> 00:43:36.719
you're on one of those three day
rotations, if you go on the days

623
00:43:37.079 --> 00:43:38.599
that work for you, the day
you can get trial care, or the

624
00:43:38.639 --> 00:43:42.280
way you can get elder care,
or the way your remmunity or spouse or

625
00:43:42.320 --> 00:43:45.639
partner can manage things. A lot
of times I hear from folks so while

626
00:43:45.639 --> 00:43:49.119
I'm going in on my required days, but I get there, I sit

627
00:43:49.159 --> 00:43:52.360
in the cubicle and I zum to
people who are home. Right, it's

628
00:43:52.400 --> 00:43:58.679
not motivating, that's very demotivating.
So curate experiences are I went in and

629
00:43:58.719 --> 00:44:00.880
there was a reason for so A
lot of the work that I do,

630
00:44:00.920 --> 00:44:04.840
I find myself more than confidence speaking, I already do. Some of that

631
00:44:05.000 --> 00:44:09.599
is going into organizations like this past
Monday night, I know, sorry,

632
00:44:09.599 --> 00:44:14.400
Tuesday morning, I was in Vancouver. I spoke to nine people nine not

633
00:44:14.559 --> 00:44:15.719
nine. I've read the sheet and
I was like, is that a typo

634
00:44:16.239 --> 00:44:21.920
ninete who wants you to lead a
conversation and have you know, an in

635
00:44:21.960 --> 00:44:25.199
depth conversation where people can ask you
anything? Or bringing people into a central

636
00:44:25.239 --> 00:44:29.519
location for them to have this experience. And I think, and it's not

637
00:44:29.519 --> 00:44:32.599
just about speakers, but you have
to have something that's the gravity to get

638
00:44:32.719 --> 00:44:36.920
people there. What is the thing
that you want them to do that they

639
00:44:36.960 --> 00:44:39.719
can't do from zoom that they're going
to have some sort of experience, whether

640
00:44:39.719 --> 00:44:45.440
it's a learning experience, a collaborative
experience, it's a brainstorming session, it's

641
00:44:45.480 --> 00:44:51.480
something that works better in person.
I don't think culture is limited to in

642
00:44:51.519 --> 00:44:54.039
person experiences. It helps, but
I don't think it's limited to in person

643
00:44:54.119 --> 00:44:59.519
experiences. Certainly you can develop culture
and belonging remotely as well, but those

644
00:44:59.599 --> 00:45:02.239
in person and experiences have to have
a moment of gravity that gives us a

645
00:45:02.320 --> 00:45:06.280
reason to be there. So people
walk away from it and say that was

646
00:45:06.360 --> 00:45:09.119
worth fighting traffic, That was worth
paying for daycare, that was worth you

647
00:45:09.159 --> 00:45:14.119
know, it was worth it?
Yeah? Yes, And if we think

648
00:45:14.119 --> 00:45:17.280
about this in terms of the when
we come together what's happening, How does

649
00:45:17.360 --> 00:45:22.719
the how does leadership curate create an
experience of that reason to be together?

650
00:45:22.760 --> 00:45:25.239
And that's absolutely true, I think, And this is where we really do

651
00:45:25.320 --> 00:45:30.679
need to have great empathy for people
leading today. Is we're moving from I

652
00:45:30.719 --> 00:45:35.079
think, an idea of leading meaning
you know often, you know this kind

653
00:45:35.079 --> 00:45:39.119
of command and control, here's the
hill, let's go take it to even

654
00:45:39.639 --> 00:45:44.159
kind of being coaching. We talk
a lot about leaders now as coaches and

655
00:45:44.280 --> 00:45:47.320
mentors. I think they're moving into
a role of being curators, curators of

656
00:45:47.360 --> 00:45:51.639
the work, curators of the project, curators of the culture. And it

657
00:45:51.679 --> 00:45:54.880
doesn't matter whether that means people are
in an office coming together for a purpose

658
00:45:55.320 --> 00:46:00.079
like sitting down having a great experience
with Heather or being at home, but

659
00:46:01.880 --> 00:46:06.239
given the tools and resources they need, the access they need to do something

660
00:46:06.599 --> 00:46:12.559
different special there. Curation now is
leadership or leadership is now curation. And

661
00:46:12.639 --> 00:46:17.440
that's a major mind shift, mindset
shift that's going to be really challenging for

662
00:46:17.480 --> 00:46:21.079
a lot of leaders. But those
who can do it, I think,

663
00:46:21.119 --> 00:46:23.960
are going to find that their people
are engaged, they feel trusted, They

664
00:46:24.519 --> 00:46:30.039
leverage their agency to work in a
way that's far more beneficial creates much more

665
00:46:30.119 --> 00:46:34.920
value for the organization. Yeah,
and if I could just jump on that.

666
00:46:35.719 --> 00:46:37.800
In addition to that, when you
start looking at the technology tools that

667
00:46:37.840 --> 00:46:40.960
are moving merging, like everyone's talking
about chat GDP and playing with it,

668
00:46:42.400 --> 00:46:45.039
when you start looking at what the
human does in that role, it's prompt,

669
00:46:46.159 --> 00:46:53.199
curate, refine, make meaning,
and then deploy at scale. Now,

670
00:46:53.320 --> 00:46:55.880
if you look at that, you're
really looking at people who are getting

671
00:46:55.960 --> 00:47:01.480
better at collaboration and curation and refine
and prompting, whether it be in leadership

672
00:47:01.599 --> 00:47:07.000
or in the actual creation of the
work that we do every day. Well,

673
00:47:07.039 --> 00:47:09.679
and this is why I couldn't resist
calling this episode. You know that

674
00:47:09.840 --> 00:47:15.960
leaders have been kicked upstairs, and
I understand and empathize so deeply with what

675
00:47:15.400 --> 00:47:19.519
how terrifying that must be if you're
running an organization, You're like, wow,

676
00:47:19.559 --> 00:47:22.960
you know, I'm I have Now
there's an expectation that I need to

677
00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:25.760
be performing on this level and with
a whole other set of skills in this

678
00:47:25.960 --> 00:47:30.119
you know, it's like we're playing
on Mars or whatever it is. And

679
00:47:30.480 --> 00:47:34.440
I really really appreciate, admire,
and I'm grateful and feel privileged that I

680
00:47:34.519 --> 00:47:37.800
get to alongside you get to help
steward this place for our leaders in the

681
00:47:37.840 --> 00:47:42.639
workplace of the future. It's incredibly
compelling and gratifying work to get to do.

682
00:47:43.760 --> 00:47:45.320
So. On that note, here
we are at the close. Already

683
00:47:45.360 --> 00:47:49.159
this show is listening to my people
around the world that are trying to help

684
00:47:49.199 --> 00:47:52.519
create those workplaces where people can realize
their potential. They're led by those inspirational

685
00:47:52.679 --> 00:47:57.840
now curated leaders, and we do
business at betters in the world. What

686
00:47:57.920 --> 00:48:01.599
would you like to leave our listeners
with. I'd like to leave with the

687
00:48:01.760 --> 00:48:06.360
idea that we have not put forth
now. We call the book the Empathy

688
00:48:06.360 --> 00:48:07.719
Advantage of People are like, well, how do I get started? I

689
00:48:07.800 --> 00:48:12.000
say, listen, listen, listen, listen. If you look at your

690
00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:15.800
head, you have two eyes,
a nose, a mouth, and two

691
00:48:15.800 --> 00:48:19.960
ears. There's only one output device. The other is our input devices,

692
00:48:19.960 --> 00:48:23.039
and that some be looking at communication. If you really want to help and

693
00:48:23.119 --> 00:48:27.880
understand your people, really try to
listen, understand where they're coming from,

694
00:48:27.880 --> 00:48:31.719
and help them become the next best
version of themselves. Yeah, I would

695
00:48:31.719 --> 00:48:37.320
just add to that. I think
we often see empathy as something leaders should

696
00:48:37.400 --> 00:48:40.800
have for their people. I would
like leaders to start with self empathy.

697
00:48:40.960 --> 00:48:45.559
Understand that this is a really challenging
place that you're in. You're not going

698
00:48:45.639 --> 00:48:51.199
to be brilliant at this from the
get go. You're you're finding new ways

699
00:48:51.239 --> 00:48:54.039
to be and lead and curate your
purporce. And that's hard, and so

700
00:48:54.079 --> 00:48:59.639
give yourself a break, give yourself
the opportunity to make some mistakes and learn

701
00:48:59.679 --> 00:49:02.760
from that. Work closely with your
people to understand what is working, what's

702
00:49:02.800 --> 00:49:07.480
not working, how you can change
and adapt. But start with a level

703
00:49:07.480 --> 00:49:12.559
of self empathy. It allows you
to give yourself the latitude to figure this

704
00:49:12.599 --> 00:49:15.320
stuff out. A great way to
finish both of you, Heather, Chris.

705
00:49:15.360 --> 00:49:19.159
I'm delighted to know you both.
As you know, I read your

706
00:49:19.159 --> 00:49:21.719
book cover to cover, which is
what I do with each of the books,

707
00:49:21.719 --> 00:49:24.559
and you really have created something profoundly
important. IM very happy to share

708
00:49:24.559 --> 00:49:28.719
with my listeners across the world.
Thank you for being on working on purpose.

709
00:49:29.360 --> 00:49:31.679
Thanks so much for having us.
You're welcome, listeners and viewers.

710
00:49:31.719 --> 00:49:35.599
I highly encourage you to get in
touch with either of these ladies or both

711
00:49:35.639 --> 00:49:37.159
of them. If you want to
learn more about Heather McGowan, you can

712
00:49:37.199 --> 00:49:40.360
go to her website, which is
Heather McGowan dot com. Let me spell

713
00:49:40.400 --> 00:49:45.079
that for you Heather h e A
t h e R. And then McGowan

714
00:49:45.320 --> 00:49:50.880
mcgowa n Heather McGowan dot com.
And for Chris Shipley you can go to

715
00:49:51.119 --> 00:49:54.159
c Shipley dot com. Last week, Give You Much the live show,

716
00:49:54.159 --> 00:49:57.800
you can always catch it via recorded
podcast. We were on the air with

717
00:49:57.880 --> 00:50:00.800
Robert Lindell talking about his new book
A Place for Tea, Giving Voice to

718
00:50:00.800 --> 00:50:06.440
the Tortoise on our hair Brained World, which addresses the business that stresses relationships,

719
00:50:06.679 --> 00:50:08.960
kill spirit and trust in the workplace, and silences the voices of dissent

720
00:50:09.039 --> 00:50:13.400
that would otherwise break down communication.
Next week, we'll be on the air

721
00:50:13.440 --> 00:50:16.800
with Atiq Rafique talking about his book
Decision Sprint, the new way to innovate

722
00:50:16.840 --> 00:50:20.880
into the unknown and move from strategy
to action. See you there, and

723
00:50:20.920 --> 00:50:22.840
remember that work is an integral and
important part of our lives. It can

724
00:50:22.880 --> 00:50:27.199
be one of the best adventures and
means of realizing potential in making the impact

725
00:50:27.199 --> 00:50:32.920
we crave. So let's work on
Purpose. We hope you've enjoyed this week's

726
00:50:32.920 --> 00:50:37.920
program. Be sure to tune into
Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor

727
00:50:37.960 --> 00:50:42.320
Elise Cortez. Each week on W
four C. Why together we'll create a

728
00:50:42.360 --> 00:50:47.400
world where business operates conscientiously. Leadership
inspires and passion performance and employees are fulfilled

729
00:50:47.400 --> 00:50:51.960
in work that provides the meaning and
purpose they crave. See you there.

730
00:50:52.239 --> 00:50:52.639
Let's work on purpose.