Everyone Has a Story – But Is Yours Serving You?

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or comments should be directed to those
show hosts. Thank you for choosing W

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FOURCY Radio. What's Working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the

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answer to this question. People ache
for meaning and purpose at work, to

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contribute their talents passionately and know their
lives really matter. They crave being part

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of an organization that inspires them and
helps them grow into realizing their highest potential.

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Business can be such a force for
good in the world, elevating humanity.

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In our program, we provide guidance
and inspiration to help usher in this

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world we all want Working on Purpose. Now, here's your host, Doctor

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Relise Cortez. Welcome back to the
Working on Purpose Program. Thanks you training

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again this week. Great to have
you. This show has been brought to

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you with passion and pride since February
of twenty fifteen, and I'm happy to

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share that this show has been ranked
on the top ten most inspirational leadership podcasts

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on the web. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes, and if we've

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not met, I am an organizational
psychologist and MOBO therapist, speaker and author.

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My team and I at gusto Now
help companies to enliven and fortify their

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operations by building a culture in leadership
activated by meaning and purpose. Our mission

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is to help our clients create a
destination workplace where people flock to join,

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are intrinsically motivated to perform at their
best, can grow into their full potential,

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and are committed to stay. And
we deliver on the company's mission always

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translates to higher profits for you.
You can learn more about us now.

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We can work together at gustodashnow dot
com or my personal site at least Coortes

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dot com. Getting into today's program
we have with us today. Karina Kilcoin

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a former trial lawyer who specialized in
criminal defense, including complex, white collar

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and civil litigation in federal and state
courts. Today, she passionately shares her

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own personal story of trauma and healing
to teach others how to rise above their

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own stories and find true peace and
emotional freedom. She's the author of Rise

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Above, the story Free Yourself from
past Trauma and Create the life you want,

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which we're talking about today. She
joins her today from Tampa, Florida,

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Karina. Welcome to Working on Purpose. Thank you, Elise. I'm

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so happy to be here. I
thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed reading every single word

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of this beautiful book that you created, and I'm really really impressed. What

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I want to start with is,
you know, this is a It's both

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really beautifully written, but it's also
incredibly transparent and personal. So the very

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first thing that I have to ask
you, my friend, is how did

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you summon the courage the bravery to
be that brave and bold? And what

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you shared it is true. I
am very honest and transparent and raw in

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this book, and I would say
that courage came in levels and layers and

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stages. So there was so much
of my life that was stowed away,

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and I was so ashamed of so
much of what I went through, that

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I was stuffed and suppressed so much
of who I was and who I thought

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I was and where I came from. So I would say that after decades

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of living like that, I understood
when I started to go on my healing

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journey that I had to go back
in there to those dark places of where

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I hid all those pieces of myself
and bring them into the light. So

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through therapy and the different modalities of
therapy I tried, they would come out

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piece by piece, little by little, and then I started to realize that

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there was no shame in what I
had experienced, and I started to take

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a lot of pride and who I
was at those different points in my life.

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And that was kind of the first
level and the first layer and the

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first and peeling of it, if
you really consider it like an onion almost.

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And then I would say I really
got courageous about it when I realized

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at the end of it all that
I really wanted to create this book that

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I wanted to write essentially a guidebook
for people and how to heal from trauma.

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And I knew that to do that, I had to do it authentically

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and to really share my journey,
I had to share those stories, my

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past stories, my history. And
I knew that if I could show people,

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if I could take people along through
my own personal journey and show them

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through example of what it feels like
and what it looks like to share yourself

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in that way, that the book
would be so powerful and an authentic for

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people and would really encourage them to
do the same. And that's really what

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healing takes, is to find that
courage to go back into the past and

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pull forward those pieces of your self
that you left behind beautifully rendered and kicking

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us off, Karina, So,
since I have read the book, and

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I do know about the trauma that
you were talking about, because you really

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detail in the book very well,
but our listeners and viewers don't yet know.

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So let's situate that next so they
understand really what you were pulling from.

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So. I was born in a
rusted out steel town on the Ohio

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Pennsylvania border. I came from a
very dysfunctional, violent family. My mother

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and father fought and argued as long
as I can remember, as far back

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as I can remember the number of
incidents that I witnessed and was involved in

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and trying to protect my mother in
domestic violent situations countless. My father went

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to My father started to have legal
trouble. He was a very astute businessman,

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my father, and very much a
hustler. And when he was in

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the picture, we had we had
a good living, We had a good

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lifestyle. But when he was not
in the picture, we didn't, and

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he got in trouble with the law. When I would say I was about

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eleven, I remember the FBI starting
to surveil our home and such, and

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he went to prison, to the
federal penitentiary. And when he left,

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my mother, who suffered from mental
health issues, was unable to cope.

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She was unable to cope with the
stress with a financial aspect of him leaving

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us as a family. And at
the time when he left, there was

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me, I was the oldest,
and I had a younger brother and a

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younger sister. I was about twelve, and all of this was going on,

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and my mother, like I said, was just really unable to cope.

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So there were long period stretches of
time where she would be in bed

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depressed. You know, this was
you know, the eighties in Ohio,

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and people weren't going to psychologists in
that group and in that era. So

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if I had to look back on
it now, knowing what I know about

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mental health. I would speculate that
my mother had severe depression, anxiety,

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and probably some kind of bipolar.
There were massive, massive bouts of spending

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the money that my father left us
on silly things, and then we were

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in extreme, extreme poverty. We
would go without hot water, without electricity,

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countless countless times. I remember sharing
a bathtub a type of water that

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I would make up and my brothers
and sister and I would bathe one after

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the other. A few years later, my mother had my youngest brother,

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and I decided that I was going
to get myself out of all of this.

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And the only road I saw out
of all this poverty and all of

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this chaos was too was through education. So I was a good student and

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I would always prioritize education, and
I chose to go to law school.

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So I put myself through law school. There was a little bit more trauma

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than occurred during that time, and
that was when I was in my early

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twenties. My mother was diagnosed with
cancer, so even during law school,

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I was taking care of her while
she was dying. When I was twenty

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four, my mother died and I
adopted my nine year old brother. So

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there was this trauma of course situational
trauma, family trauma. But there was

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this bigger problem, which was that
I never had the space to process it.

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I didn't have the tools, and
none of us do at that age,

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and I wasn't with a parent who
knew how to help me process it,

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and I never, as I got
older, didn't even know the difference

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of what that meant. I didn't
know how to do it, so I

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continued to suppress it, and then
adopting my nine year old brother put me

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even deeper into fight or flight,
into survival mode, because it wasn't just

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me anymore that I was trying to
make sure that I survived. It was

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now my nine year old brother.
So it was quite a long time of

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quite a many years of trauma.
And then it was this idea and this

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this huge burden I carried of carrying
all of this old, old emotional energy

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in me that continued to feel like
trauma over and over and over again.

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Such a such a burden, and
too, and if I have, if

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I remember right, too, your
mother also tried to give you away when

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you were first born. She told
you that, yes, there was that

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little thing which is a really heavy, heavy, heavy thing to carry as

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a child to know that your mother
tells you that she tried to give you

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away. So I wanted to make
sure our listeners and viewers kind of were

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anchored in what kind of trauma we
were talking about here and the length of

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it, so that they could understand
just why you've been so motivated to write

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this book, to research this book
and write this book. I am curious

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how, if at all, your
experience as a trial attorney served you to

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the research, the writing, and
in the healing journey. I can't imagine

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that it wasn't present. Yes,
it absolutely was present. And so this

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whole even younger than even you know, when I was younger than going through

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college in law school, I loved
to read. That was my that was

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my escape, that was my world. I got to live in other places

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besides the traumatized, violent world in
which I was being raised. So reading

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and you know, books and storytelling
was always a thing for me. But

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law school and the way they teach
you to think in law school and and

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then as a as a trial lawyer, the main skills that I took that

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transposed so beautifully into this is the
idea, especially in trial work, of

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taking really complicated matters and distilling them
down into some simple form so that people

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like jurors can understand what you're saying. And so the law can be very

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complex. And then you know,
there were types of law I practice,

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So even when I got into more
white collar criminal defense, and there are

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complicated financial aspects in addition to criminal
law aspects that you had to explain to

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jurors. That is a skill that
you learn in law school, and that

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is a skill that you develop as
a lawyer. So in writing this book,

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I had to take really complicated ideas
and this is all things that I

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went through on my own healing journey. I am such a researcher and such

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a reader and such a nerd about
health and mental health and emotional health and

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physical health. So it was always
something I was interested in. But when

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you really get into the ideas of
trauma and what it does to you and

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how what it does to your brain
or what your brain is doing in the

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presence of trauma, it's really complicated. And a lot of times I think

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that that is what makes people shy
away from it. They don't really want

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to get into that aspect, and
so they keep going to somebody to a

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therapist like, well, tell me, just tell me and tell me how

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to fix it. And that's not
really how it works. You have to

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be very proactive in your healing.
So what I really wanted to do was

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do exactly what I did as a
trial, where is take this really complicated

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information about your brain and your brain
and what it does in the presence of

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trauma, and simplify it for people
in one chapter so that people could really

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understand it. And I will say
that it is a lot of you know

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you and people out there who love
to read a written books. It's like

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it's a lot. It takes a
long time to write a book. It

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takes a really long time to write
a really good book. And really what

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you try to do is you put
it all out there and you really try

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to simplify it for people. And
that chapter I wrote on the brain science

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was the chapter that took me the
most, not because of the information,

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but because I wanted to make it
so simple. I wanted to keep,

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you know, making it simple,
simple, simple, simple, so that

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as you asked, the qualities and
the skill that I learned and I developed

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came in super handy. And writing
this kind of a book. Indeed,

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well, kudos, I mean it
is, you're right. I mean I've

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been hosting the show for nine and
a half years, Karina and I generally

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bring on authors and I read their
books or to cover, so I've got

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a really quite quite a deep experience
in how to be able to read books

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and how looking at how they're organized
and how well can I understand them,

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and the easier to understand, the
better written it is. So here we

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go. So this let's situate here
before we take our first break here of

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this idea. I mean, everybody's
heard the idea. Everybody has a story.

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Of course, we all have a
story, but you have a particular

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way of describing just what stories are
that I think it would be helpful to

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say at this point, what are
stories? In your view? Stories are

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your brain's emotional interpretation of what happened
to you. So the traumatic response is

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there's an objective quality to it.
There's an objective nature to you experience something

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traumatic that goes without a doubt.
But the story that we all have,

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because we all have one or one
hundred we all have about ourselves. I'm

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unlovable, I'm not worthy, I'm
always abandoned, I'm not worth being loved,

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like whatever your story is, and
those three were always you know my

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story. But whatever your story is, it comes from your brain's subjective,

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emotional interpretation of what happened to you, and it creates that story for you

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to keep you quote unquote safe,
beautifully rendered. And that is going to

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set us up here, ladies and
gentlemen, for what we're going to cover

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after the break. So we're going
to get We're going to get into the

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difference between the emotional and the thinking
brain in terms of all this sort of

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thing that. Let us take our
first break. I'm your host, doctor

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Elise Cortes. We've been on the
air with Karina Killcoin, who shares her

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own personal story of trauma and healing
to teach others how to rise above their

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own stories and find true piece and
emotional freedom. We've been talking a bit

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about where this book came from,
why it's important. After the rec're going

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to get into this more of the
nitty greeting of the techniques that she covers.

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We'll be right back. Doctor Elise
Cortez is a management consultant specializing in

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meaning and purpose, an inspirational speaker, and author. She helps companies visioneer

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for a greater purpose among stakeholders and
develop purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures

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that elevate fulfillment, performance, and
commitment within the workforce. To learn more

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or to invite Elise to speak to
your organization, please visit her at elisecortes

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dot com. Let's talk about how
to get your employees working on purpose.

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This is working on Purpose with doctor
Elise Cortes. To reach our program today

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or to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Elise alisee at

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elisecortes dot com. Now back to
working on Purpose. Thanks for staying with

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us, and welcome back to working
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor

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Elise Cortes, as I am dedicated
to creating a world where people can realize

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the potential at work and are led
by inspirational leaders, and they are part

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of the urization that does business that
betters the world. I keep researching and

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writing my own books. So the
last one came out in March of twenty

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twenty three. It's called The Great
Revitalization. How activating meeting and purpose can

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radically enliven your business. And I
wrote it for leaders to really understand that

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the lay of today's talent landscape,
what do they want to stay motivated to

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stay with you? And then I
offer twenty two best practices to help equip

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the organization with culture to be able
to provide that. You can find my

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books at at leastquotest dot com or
on Amazon if you are just joining the

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program. My guest today is Karin
at Kilcoin. She's the author of Rise

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Above, the Story for Yourself from
the past, trauma and Create the life

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you want, which is what we're
talking about today. So now I appreciate

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you very much how you did distill
as an organizational psychologist. Right, I've

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studied a lot about emotions in the
brain, etc. And I like how

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you describe the brain as a master's
storyteller and then you distinguish the emotional and

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thinking brains. Can you kind of
expand on that a little bit for us?

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Yes, So, as we were
discussing earlier, the brain is so

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complicated and complex when it comes to
trauma and what it does in the face

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of trauma. So I read a
lot of books and one of the things

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that I learned in my healing journey
was how important the role of your brain

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is and understanding and how your brain
works when these traumatic things happened to us,

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your brain is doing And when I
first learned these ideas, it's the

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thing that really broke me open the
most. It seemed so seems so like

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just the light went on, like
it was like, oh my gosh,

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So all this time, in all
these years, I have been defaulting to

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this mindset, to these stories,
to these limiting stories of who I thought

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I was because of how my brain
works. So the way I describe it

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in my book again really simplified,
but I want people to really be able

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to absorb this and understand it.
So the way I describe it as there's

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two parts to your brain, the
emotional brain, which is comprised of the

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reptilian part of your brain and the
mammalion part of your brain. And those

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two parts of your brain register and
control all the things you have no control

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over. You're breathing, your heart
rate, all these things. So it

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also those two parts of your brain
also control fight or flight. So something

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if something happens to you some kind
of you're in danger, like the old

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stories about like the dinosaurs chasing your
bear's chosing something's chasing you. Your body

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goes into this whole or system of
staying and fighting or running away. There's

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also the idea of freezing. But
that emotional part of your brain, as

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I call it, is what controls
all of the things that you don't even

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think about. And then there's your
thinking brain, which is what I kind

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of group together as your cortex,
your subral cortex, your frontal cortex.

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So all these areas of your brain, the upper part of your brain that

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are the more sophisticated parts of your
brain that are free Will you know that

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all of these ideas about self awareness, self love, it's all of this

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and that all happens in this different
part of your brain that I call the

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thinking brain in the book. So
where it goes awry is when you experience

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trauma, and your emotional brain,
in order to keep you safe, registers

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and ignites this fight flight response.
And when it does that, it does

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all these things physically to your body, right, but it also creates a

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story that keeps you safe, as
I said earlier, quote unquote safe because

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what your brain is doing, your
emotional brain is doing, is it is

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trying to make sure that you don't
get hurt. The brain is wired first

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and foremost for survival. So when
you experience something traumatic, your emotional brain

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initiates fight or flight, and it
creates a story in your head that keeps

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you living a smaller life, like, Oh, I don't know, don't

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take that risk. I wouldn't do
that. I wouldn't quit your job.

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I wouldn't fall that dream. What
that doesn't pan out? What if you

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don't make the money then you're going
to make I wouldn't fall for that person.

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I wouldn't do that. And what
if they don't love you back?

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What if they leave you? Everybody
leaves you. These are the kinds of

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negative self loops that play in our
head, and they're all brought about by

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the emotional brain. How do we
stop those? How do we stop the

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fear loop and negative self talk?
How do we get out of it?

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We create self awareness and you do
that in your thinking brain. So we

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all have these loops. In fact, I just saw this great reel on

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Instagram and it's a comedian. He
had Jerry Seinfeld on and he said,

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Jerry Seinfeld, you have written,
you know, arguably the best show ever

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on television. Do you still have
that negative voice in your head when you're

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writing, and do you know Jerry
Seinfeld said, yes, I do.

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Every day in your voice tells me
I am not a good writer, I

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am a comedian. I'm not this, I'm not that, and I'm thinking,

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see everybody's story. And so what
you want to do is is you

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want to get into the self awareness
where you know what the story is and

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you stop it. You find the
awareness about it, you hear it,

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you hear the story, and you
reset yourself and you say, that's not

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true. This trauma isn't happening anymore. I don't have to stay in this

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safe box anymore. That's not happening
to me any more. So it's all

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about developing this self awareness and this
pattern of self awareness. And that's ultimately

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once you start getting that going like
an engine revving, like once you get

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enough of that self awareness going,
the stories don't ever completely stop what they

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get lighter, and you know how
to put them in their place, and

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you know how to say, I
know you're trying to protect me emotional brain,

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but I don't need that right now. What I need right now is

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to take this risk. I need
to make this jump. I need to

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tell this person I love them.
Right. So that's where we get into

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the difference. Because your brain is
a master storyteller, and if you default

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to your emotional brain and you let
your emotional brain tell you what's happening,

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you are living a limited small life, no question, I think so much.

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I've had so many amazing people on
this program over the year's Koreina,

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and one of the things we've talked
about is just if we could literally spring

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more people so that they're operating from
much more of all of their talents and

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their capabilities, and they were then
empowered to contribute those what kind of a

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world will will be living in it? It's amazing, right, It's just

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amazing. So the limitation is incredible. Now, what you were talking about,

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that three step process that you just
mentioned to us, is that the

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same thing as removing the victim mindset? Or is that something else the victim

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mindset removing? That is definitely related
and parallel, Okay, I would say

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that. I would say that to
me, this was a huge part of

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my healing. I carried around for
decades this idea that like I was the

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daughter of a felon, and you
know, if people knew that about me,

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what would they think, Who am
I? Because I'm the daughter of

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a felon, And so I had
to really I had to let that go

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if I wanted to get to the
next phase of healing. So to me,

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that came out to be that I
had to know. I boiled it

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down to basically three steps that they
put in the book of Realizations I had

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about victimhood. And the first one
is is that the trauma, the bad

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thing that happened to you, to
any of us, doesn't happen because we

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deserve it. We get into this
mentality that, oh, somehow, when

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something bad happens to us, we
caused it, or it's our fault,

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or we could have said no,
or we should have did in this stuff

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differently, and that's just human nature. That's again something the brain does.

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And what we need to realize is
is that that's not the truth. That's

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not reality, that the bad thing
didn't happen because we deserve it. The

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second thing we need to do is
again know that this idea you're right,

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this parallel here, is that your
story is a distortion. It is your

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brain, your emotional brain, creating
this loop, is trying to keep you

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pushed down and safe within the little
bubble it's creating for you. So your

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story about your abandonment or your worthlessness, your own loveability, or your that

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you fail and everything that that's a
distortion. And the third thing about the

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victim mindset is that to get out
of it, you have to understand that

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and accept and look for the bigger
purpose and what happened. There is always

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one. It's hard to pinpoint sometimes
because especially when it's something so terrible and

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so traumatic, and there's always something
if you can find it, a silver

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lining, a bigger purpose, some
benefit that came out of it for you.

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And then all the times I talk
about this in groups and I speak,

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and that's the one that gets people
the most because you think, what

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good could have come out of that? But there is if you look.

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It might be that you moved,
It might be it took another job,

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It might be that you met somebody
different, It might be that you learned

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something new about yourself. There could
always be a silver lining, and resetting

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your brain from negative to positive takes
that kind of self awareness. It takes

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that kind of using the thinking brain
to analyze the situation and to say there

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was something bigger and brighter for this
that happened to me. I know.

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It's what I love about that Koreina
and what I align with. I'm,

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among other things, I'm a meaning
and work and an identity researcher. And

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when we look at what we've gone
through, what things that we've had like

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crawl through the mud through to get
to get to the other side, or

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what we've transcended, if we peel
that back and say, if that hadn't

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happened to me, what would I
would what would I would not have become

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as a result, So then we
see how those things really layered into our

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sense of identity and our sense of
strength and perspective and talents and skills.

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I think that's a lot of what
we can get in terms of that silver

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lane that you talk about and true
And I would say this too, that

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I look back on my life and
I think, would I ever want to

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go through all of that? Again? Absolutely not? But standing where I

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stand today, am I thankful for
it all? Absolutely? I wouldn't be

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like you said, I wouldn't be
who I am today had I not gone

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through all of that. So I
love what you say. I think that's

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beautiful. Thank you. I am
really As I was thinking about you coming

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on the program today, I was
thinking, you know, I really am

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convinced that, you know, the
people that have really done something in their

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lives and they've gone through this stuff, it's almost like a not quite a

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direct correlation, but there's something in
it, like we humans, you know,

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almost need to be catalyzed. You
know. It's the rom Dos would

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call it the sandpaper of life.
Right, And so your story, you

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couldn't have written this book. You
couldn't be doing the work that you're doing

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today in the world. Had you
not had to go through and find a

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way through all of that trauma that
you had in life, you wouldn't be

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equipped. Absolutely, that's so true. So you have a way, this

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idea of rising above the story.
You have a method for that, a

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methodology for that. And I don't
know if the steps you've already covered really

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speak to that, but I think
everybody who's listening to at this point it's

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like, Okay, great, I
know I've got a story. How do

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I rise above it? So I
love this question because again to this point

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of I wanted to create a guide
book for people. There are a lot

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of beautiful books out there and actually
really heady, intelligent books out there on

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trauma, and I actually read them
and quote a lot of them in the

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book. And there's you know,
seventy two end notes in my book.

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So there's a lot of these big
ideas, and if you want to go

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back and research, you know,
some other things are dive deeper. That's

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great. But what I wanted to
do is really simplify the journey for people

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through reading the passages of my book. So I took my own healing journey

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and what worked for me, and
I broke it down into three steps.

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And the three steps the three big
steps, and there's lots of fun things

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under each step. But the three
big steps are acknowledging your story number one.

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And that's sometimes the most powerful,
most difficult work for people because so

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many times, like I said,
we're walking around the earth with our head

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and the sand or a head and
the clouds about Oh yeah, I guess

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this is just the life I have, because you know, they're defaulting their

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emotional brain. So acknowledging your story
is this idea of what happened to me

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and really analyzing this objective and the
subjective part of it, so you know,

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I give this example in the book
of a Trial Experience, right,

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and I really like to explain it
to people this way. So if you

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were testifying on the stand, Let's
say you were robbed and you're testifying on

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the stand and you're supposed to be
talking about what happened to you, and

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they're asking you very factual questions.
You know, they want to know,

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where were you, what did the
person look like, like, what did

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they say to you? What were
they wearing? And instead of instead of

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giving them the who, what,
where, when of what happened to you,

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you you sit on the stand and
you say, oh, my god,

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the whole thing was my fault.
I shouldn't have been out after midnight.

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Why was I walking the street like
that? I shouldn't have been on

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the left side, I should have
been on the right side, and I

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should never have been wearing my good
watch. So that would be objected to

410
00:30:23.720 --> 00:30:26.480
all over the place. That membered
a lot, and you would be driven

411
00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:30.960
back to the objective facts of what
happened. So similar in this acknowledging your

412
00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:37.799
story, understanding the objective part of
what happened to you, laying that out,

413
00:30:37.000 --> 00:30:41.079
Yes, this happened to me.
A B and C no doubt about

414
00:30:41.079 --> 00:30:45.799
it. But the next part is
acknowledging the story that your brain wrote about

415
00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:48.960
it. My case, my story
where my objective thing was my father went

416
00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:52.640
to prison. The story I wrote
about it was that I was unworthy and

417
00:30:52.720 --> 00:30:59.599
unlovable because my father included left me
when I was little. And so there's

418
00:30:59.640 --> 00:31:03.079
a story that we create. So
acknowledging that story and that you're telling yourself

419
00:31:03.079 --> 00:31:07.400
a story and that you're living in
a little bubble of your story is the

420
00:31:07.519 --> 00:31:11.079
number one part. The second part
is releasing your story. Second big step.

421
00:31:11.759 --> 00:31:17.440
This is all this idea of Okay, now you acknowledged it, we

422
00:31:17.559 --> 00:31:21.839
have to go back a little bit
further and understand how you got so tangled

423
00:31:21.920 --> 00:31:25.640
up in it, all the times
it repeated itself, how patterns happened,

424
00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:30.920
how it took over your life.
And then you start doing some work on

425
00:31:30.039 --> 00:31:34.200
releasing the story. And that's a
lot of work about you know, you're

426
00:31:34.240 --> 00:31:38.200
inner child, work forgiveness, it's
all these types of things in there.

427
00:31:38.599 --> 00:31:45.039
Then the third step is rising above
your story, and this is all about

428
00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:51.160
finding real self love and how you
tap into that and how you finally,

429
00:31:51.440 --> 00:31:56.039
after all this time, know exactly
who you are, and you love exactly

430
00:31:56.079 --> 00:31:59.079
who you are and you're not ashamed
of it, and you put it out

431
00:31:59.079 --> 00:32:01.559
into the world because, as you
said earlier, could you imagine a world?

432
00:32:02.079 --> 00:32:07.119
Or we all did that? Or
we have these gifts in us and

433
00:32:07.160 --> 00:32:08.839
we handle them, but we tend
to like bury them and like because we

434
00:32:08.920 --> 00:32:13.359
got the emotional loop going, Yeah, you're not good at that, and

435
00:32:13.400 --> 00:32:15.160
I wouldn't do that. You'll fail
at that. Don't do that? So

436
00:32:15.240 --> 00:32:19.119
can you imagine? So it's all
about I teach you all the ways in

437
00:32:19.160 --> 00:32:23.400
which I do this on earthing,
excavating the real you, and loving the

438
00:32:23.559 --> 00:32:28.880
real you. So that's the world
that I want to live in, Koreina,

439
00:32:28.920 --> 00:32:31.319
That's where I want to live.
Yes, let's brum our next break

440
00:32:31.319 --> 00:32:34.640
here. I'm your host, doctor
Earles Cortez, who are on here with

441
00:32:34.720 --> 00:32:37.559
Karina Kilcoin, who shares her own
personal story of trauma and healing to teach

442
00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:42.519
others to rise above their own stories
and find true peace and emotional freedom.

443
00:32:42.880 --> 00:32:45.559
We're getting more into the details of
just how it is that we tell the

444
00:32:45.640 --> 00:32:49.039
stories, how we are a master
storyteller. After the break, we're going

445
00:32:49.119 --> 00:32:52.240
to talk more about how to extract
our true self to be very powerful.

446
00:32:52.640 --> 00:33:13.279
We'll be right back. Doctor Elise
Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning

447
00:33:13.319 --> 00:33:17.200
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and
author, she helps companies visioneer for greater

448
00:33:17.240 --> 00:33:23.240
purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment,

449
00:33:23.359 --> 00:33:28.359
performance, and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite

450
00:33:28.359 --> 00:33:32.079
a lease to speak to your organization, please visit her at elisecortes dot com.

451
00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:42.279
Let's talk about how to get your
employees working on purpose. This is

452
00:33:42.319 --> 00:33:45.759
working on Purpose with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or to

453
00:33:45.839 --> 00:33:51.720
open a conversation with Elise, send
an email to a lease a l Se

454
00:33:52.079 --> 00:34:01.319
at elisecortes dot com. Now back
to working on purpose. Thankteresting with us,

455
00:34:01.319 --> 00:34:04.799
and welcome back to working on Purpose. I'm your host, Doctor Lei's

456
00:34:04.839 --> 00:34:07.680
Cortes. I mentioned in the last
break that my last book came out in

457
00:34:07.680 --> 00:34:09.800
March of twenty twenty three. It's
called The Great Vitalization. What I did

458
00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:14.159
for you is I built you a
three page assessment you can pull off my

459
00:34:14.199 --> 00:34:17.239
website to They've learned the extent to
which your organization is actually operating at for

460
00:34:17.400 --> 00:34:22.719
today's talent discerning standards. You can
find it at gustodashnow dot com if you

461
00:34:22.760 --> 00:34:25.800
are just now joining the program.
My guess is Karina Kilcoin. She's the

462
00:34:25.800 --> 00:34:30.559
author of Rise Above, the Story
for Yourself from past trauma and Create the

463
00:34:30.599 --> 00:34:32.800
life you want. So as we
were on break there, I was thinking

464
00:34:32.800 --> 00:34:36.320
about this Koreina, and one thing
that I want to say to our listeners

465
00:34:36.320 --> 00:34:40.039
and viewers is is that none of
us are immune to trauma and pain.

466
00:34:40.119 --> 00:34:45.960
We are all walking wounded human beings. And my work inside organizations to help

467
00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:52.599
develop leaders and cultures that are really
destination in nature. Think about how there

468
00:34:52.599 --> 00:34:55.079
are so many people that have no
idea how truly wounded they are. If

469
00:34:55.079 --> 00:34:59.920
they did this kind of work that
Karina is putting forth, they wouldn't be

470
00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:02.960
the tyrants that you actually report to, or they maybe they would, you

471
00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:07.000
know, create a whole new company
that would be something else. So I

472
00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:09.199
really am a huge fan of this
work, Comrena. It's so so so

473
00:35:09.320 --> 00:35:13.159
important. One of the many reasons
I wanted to have you on. So

474
00:35:13.599 --> 00:35:15.239
I just want you to know that
for me, this the work that we're

475
00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:19.880
doing here in this program is integral
to the kind of work that I try

476
00:35:19.920 --> 00:35:24.239
to do. Some companies as well. I agree with that that's so powerful

477
00:35:24.280 --> 00:35:29.599
because I've been thinking a lot about
that myself. That we take all of

478
00:35:29.639 --> 00:35:34.159
this with us everywhere everywhere we go. That's right, not just our family

479
00:35:34.199 --> 00:35:37.400
and our friends. It goes to
our work, to the workplace. And

480
00:35:37.559 --> 00:35:40.280
I think back on it now having
been healed, and I think back with

481
00:35:40.360 --> 00:35:45.159
people that I have worked with,
and I think, Wow, how different

482
00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:49.920
the company would have felt, or
the environment would have felt had we had

483
00:35:49.920 --> 00:35:55.559
this kind of training or this kind
of thinking available to sea level, especially

484
00:35:55.760 --> 00:36:00.440
right Who's kind of like it's all
coming down the attitude of the leadership.

485
00:36:00.559 --> 00:36:05.480
So well, it's so thank you. I mean, you know, a

486
00:36:05.679 --> 00:36:08.519
huge dobnorable one for leadership is self
awareness, and most people just scratch the

487
00:36:08.559 --> 00:36:13.880
surface of that. So so getting
to that then I where I wanted to

488
00:36:13.880 --> 00:36:17.360
go next is I just found it
so powerful. You have these four steps

489
00:36:17.400 --> 00:36:22.480
to extracting our true self, say
more, tell us about those the people

490
00:36:22.480 --> 00:36:27.119
that haven't read your book kit.
So, as we talked about earlier,

491
00:36:27.280 --> 00:36:30.360
I had a really hard time even
knowing who the real me was because I

492
00:36:30.519 --> 00:36:35.440
was I'd stuffed so much of what
had happened to me, and then I

493
00:36:35.519 --> 00:36:39.000
spent so much time time trying to
be anything but who I thought I was.

494
00:36:39.760 --> 00:36:43.599
And I think this is also something
that we all fall into. So

495
00:36:43.880 --> 00:36:46.440
I chase success, thinking, oh, you know, if I'm this lawyer

496
00:36:46.440 --> 00:36:50.119
and I went all these cases and
I have all these clients, like I'm

497
00:36:50.159 --> 00:36:53.360
going to be this person and I'm
suddenly going to be healed and happy and

498
00:36:53.400 --> 00:36:57.760
not all the shame inside of me, And that's not really how it works.

499
00:36:58.079 --> 00:37:00.840
And in fact, I felt I
had a poster syndrome for you know,

500
00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:04.880
most of my career, I just
never felt like I was good enough.

501
00:37:05.559 --> 00:37:09.280
So this part about extracting our true
self and excavating our true self is

502
00:37:09.400 --> 00:37:15.679
so powerful and needed in this idea
of healing and you know, really finding

503
00:37:15.760 --> 00:37:21.760
ultimate self love. So the four
buckets of that, the four steps that

504
00:37:21.840 --> 00:37:24.199
I had to do a lot of
work in and I think we all probably

505
00:37:24.280 --> 00:37:30.039
do, is Number one, rid
ourselves of shame. So we get so

506
00:37:30.559 --> 00:37:35.280
caught up and bound up in our
shame, and we keep these secrets about

507
00:37:35.280 --> 00:37:37.639
ourselves and we think, oh,
you know, nobody can know this about

508
00:37:37.639 --> 00:37:39.880
me. They're not going to like
me if they knew this about me,

509
00:37:40.679 --> 00:37:47.360
and it makes us feel less than
and dirty and not worthy of things.

510
00:37:47.400 --> 00:37:52.960
So the biggest thing in there is
riading yourself of shame, and that is

511
00:37:52.039 --> 00:37:58.039
really about talking about what happened to
you. And an easy way to start

512
00:37:58.079 --> 00:38:00.679
doing that is just you know,
journaling things, writing it out yourself,

513
00:38:01.400 --> 00:38:06.400
and then taking it to somebody you
trust. I am not espousing you know,

514
00:38:06.440 --> 00:38:09.199
putting this all o our social media
or going to work and letting it

515
00:38:09.239 --> 00:38:15.039
all out on the on the conference
table. I'm saying being responsible about how

516
00:38:15.079 --> 00:38:19.960
you are going to free yourself from
this shame, any secrets you have that

517
00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:23.360
you're keeping. And this miraculous thing
happens for me and I witnessed it with

518
00:38:23.400 --> 00:38:29.679
so many people, is that when
you do this, suddenly nothing feels shameful

519
00:38:29.760 --> 00:38:31.719
or turty anymore. It's like you
just felt like that because you were holding

520
00:38:31.760 --> 00:38:37.039
it in the second step. And
this is soothing your inner child. So

521
00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:42.880
many of us have something that happened
as a child in those formative years.

522
00:38:42.880 --> 00:38:45.119
Like I mentioned earlier, we don't
have the capacity yet, we don't have

523
00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:51.360
the brain capacity yet to process what
happens to us. So so many times

524
00:38:51.440 --> 00:38:57.519
we carry around those wounds or our
brain actually as it's forming, is impacted

525
00:38:57.599 --> 00:39:01.639
by these different traumatic events, and
so we need to learn how to dial

526
00:39:01.719 --> 00:39:07.519
back down into that child that's so
wounded, and learn how to parent that

527
00:39:07.599 --> 00:39:10.400
child, learn how to nurture that
child, know how to love and soothe

528
00:39:10.440 --> 00:39:14.880
that child. And that that didn't
take a fair amount of work, but

529
00:39:14.920 --> 00:39:19.599
it's absolutely worth it. The third
step is forgiving others. Oh my gosh,

530
00:39:19.639 --> 00:39:22.320
this was This was huge for me. And this was like forgiving my

531
00:39:22.440 --> 00:39:28.159
parents. And it was interesting because
I could more easily find forgiveness for my

532
00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:31.079
father than for my mother. I
felt like my mother was supposed to have

533
00:39:31.119 --> 00:39:37.559
been my protector. So it took
me a long time and releasing a lot

534
00:39:37.599 --> 00:39:42.840
of rage. And I mean I
had rage for her. And that's something

535
00:39:42.880 --> 00:39:45.920
else. I think when we have
these emotions, we get ashamed of them

536
00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:47.559
and we think, oh, we
can't, can't say that against have rage

537
00:39:47.559 --> 00:39:52.840
against my mother. Yeah, you
actually can, and you should express these

538
00:39:52.880 --> 00:39:57.360
emotions because emotions have energy, and
if you keep suppressing them, they will

539
00:39:57.400 --> 00:40:01.360
cause disease in your body and very
possibly disease. I mean that is like,

540
00:40:01.519 --> 00:40:05.760
that is scientific. I am not
making that up, and the last

541
00:40:05.800 --> 00:40:12.440
four step is forgiving ourselves. We
get so caught up in this idea of

542
00:40:12.519 --> 00:40:15.280
all the things we did wrong.
And I know, for me it was

543
00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:17.719
interesting because I really didn't get into
this until, you know, my early

544
00:40:17.880 --> 00:40:23.960
forties, and I had to grieve
this whole situation of well, gosh,

545
00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:29.920
I spent like you know, twenty
years locked up in this half lifehere I

546
00:40:29.960 --> 00:40:34.119
could have been really being my real
self and really being like who I'm in

547
00:40:34.239 --> 00:40:38.039
here to be, and really loving
myself. But everything happens when it happens,

548
00:40:38.039 --> 00:40:43.559
and healing takes as long as it
takes. So forgiving ourselves is crucial

549
00:40:43.800 --> 00:40:47.400
and important, and it requires a
lot of compassion and a lot of patience.

550
00:40:49.719 --> 00:40:52.280
Indeed, indeed, well that brings
me where I wanted to come next.

551
00:40:52.280 --> 00:40:59.400
I mean, I'm well aware,
you know, at least concretely or

552
00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:05.960
that researching, writing, and sharing
this book has had to profoundly change you.

553
00:41:06.599 --> 00:41:09.360
So I'm interested in how would you
describe that transformation? What was that

554
00:41:09.480 --> 00:41:15.800
for you? I had so many
versions of this book. I worked on

555
00:41:15.840 --> 00:41:20.079
this book for a very long time, and I mean eight years. I

556
00:41:20.119 --> 00:41:25.320
had different versions of this book,
and none of them seemed to really hit

557
00:41:25.480 --> 00:41:30.960
or to really feel right, or
I would not quite get a deal I

558
00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:34.199
wanted, or I don't know,
just something never felt right about it.

559
00:41:34.239 --> 00:41:39.480
And when I took it off the
market and I reformatted it into this formula

560
00:41:39.880 --> 00:41:45.079
right and then really made it more, this journey of this mixture of a

561
00:41:45.159 --> 00:41:49.840
memoir and self help, it really
felt like this is it, this has

562
00:41:49.880 --> 00:41:52.360
to be it. Like I mentioned
in the beginning, I wanted people to

563
00:41:52.440 --> 00:41:55.360
feel like they wanted to They wanted
to feel like we were friends and I

564
00:41:55.480 --> 00:42:01.239
was walking them through this journey they
were on. So that whole process was

565
00:42:01.239 --> 00:42:07.719
so cathartic for me because I started
out sobbing and crying in all these early

566
00:42:07.800 --> 00:42:09.960
journals and these early drafts, and
somebody very wise told me, they said,

567
00:42:10.679 --> 00:42:14.199
Okay, these aren't the ones you're
going to use, right, Like

568
00:42:14.280 --> 00:42:16.880
you have to like let all that
out. So one big thing I want

569
00:42:16.920 --> 00:42:21.800
to say to people about that I
could draw parallel to this and this whole

570
00:42:21.840 --> 00:42:24.239
journey of me writing this is that, And where I want people to get

571
00:42:24.280 --> 00:42:28.599
in their journey is all of these
things I was able to write about them

572
00:42:28.599 --> 00:42:31.639
in this version of this book that
people could buy and read. I don't

573
00:42:31.679 --> 00:42:37.280
have an emotional charge to them anymore, and now they almost feel like somebody

574
00:42:37.280 --> 00:42:44.360
else's stories. And so I want
people to get there. I want that

575
00:42:44.800 --> 00:42:50.719
sense of emotional freedom for people where
they don't have an emotional charge to those

576
00:42:50.760 --> 00:42:55.639
things that happened to them anymore.
And I would say that the beauty of

577
00:42:55.679 --> 00:43:00.280
what happens also to me at the
end of this or where I am not

578
00:43:00.320 --> 00:43:01.679
in the end, but where I
am right now in this journey, is

579
00:43:01.719 --> 00:43:06.320
that I run across people. I
run into people and they tell me,

580
00:43:06.480 --> 00:43:08.360
oh my gosh, I just had
I just met somebody the other day and

581
00:43:08.400 --> 00:43:12.960
they said, I read your book
and it broke me wide open, and

582
00:43:13.079 --> 00:43:16.320
I was like in a good way, and yes, I actually took time

583
00:43:16.360 --> 00:43:20.880
off from work and I went deep
into therapy and I took your book and

584
00:43:20.920 --> 00:43:22.480
I answered all the journal prompts and
I took it to my therapist and I

585
00:43:22.519 --> 00:43:24.840
was like, this is what I
want to work on. I had been

586
00:43:24.920 --> 00:43:30.880
hiding all this emotional, this childhood
trauma. So it is this continual,

587
00:43:30.119 --> 00:43:36.880
beautiful journey for me where I am
helping people get to this emotional freedom part

588
00:43:36.920 --> 00:43:42.079
where they don't have this charge about
the negative things that they've that they've happened

589
00:43:42.559 --> 00:43:45.840
that have happened to them, and
they've left those bags behind at the railway

590
00:43:45.880 --> 00:43:50.679
station where they should be. Yeah, well so then then the next logical

591
00:43:50.719 --> 00:43:52.199
place for me to go then,
And I've been very interested, I mean

592
00:43:52.239 --> 00:43:55.920
the transformations in life. I mean, you don't practice law anymore, correct?

593
00:43:58.320 --> 00:44:01.000
Is that right? You left it
behind? So I know that you're

594
00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:05.119
out helping people with their stories and
such, but how are what are you

595
00:44:05.159 --> 00:44:10.840
doing with your precious energies in your
time? I am such a believer in

596
00:44:12.360 --> 00:44:15.159
this book, so I am out
there speaking, So I'm doing you know,

597
00:44:15.239 --> 00:44:20.480
keynotes, So I'm speaking wherever I
can. I am right now trying

598
00:44:20.519 --> 00:44:24.400
to get a ted talk lined up. I'm building a course around this book

599
00:44:24.559 --> 00:44:30.719
and this idea because I want to
offer more information and I want to expand

600
00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:35.239
on it, and I want to
offer some meditations and things and other assets

601
00:44:35.239 --> 00:44:37.840
that really helped me that I couldn't
make part of the book just because of

602
00:44:37.880 --> 00:44:43.400
what it is in the format.
It isn't So I'm continuing this. This

603
00:44:43.599 --> 00:44:46.559
my life's work of this. And
I will say that growing up I told

604
00:44:46.599 --> 00:44:50.880
you I loved books, and I
don't know, maybe five six years old.

605
00:44:50.920 --> 00:44:52.480
I remember thinking that I wanted to
be a writer, and I didn't

606
00:44:52.519 --> 00:44:55.239
really know what that meant. I
knew like I wanted to put words together

607
00:44:55.280 --> 00:44:59.280
and things, and law school,
like I said, was my way out.

608
00:45:00.119 --> 00:45:01.360
It was, you know, an
escape for me in a way that

609
00:45:01.400 --> 00:45:06.760
I saw that I could survive and
make money. But I would say that

610
00:45:06.840 --> 00:45:12.840
it was a beautiful choice because those
skills have come so in handy and I

611
00:45:12.880 --> 00:45:16.199
would never change one day of that, And it makes me appreciate being a

612
00:45:16.199 --> 00:45:22.159
writer and having this freedom to be
a writer so much more so. Two

613
00:45:22.159 --> 00:45:24.519
things. One, it's not lost
on me that you know your father went

614
00:45:24.559 --> 00:45:29.559
to the penitentiary when you were age
twelve and you became a trial lawyer.

615
00:45:29.599 --> 00:45:32.159
That's just a very interesting sort of
piece of your story. Second thing I

616
00:45:32.159 --> 00:45:36.199
want to say, right, trial
lawyer, Yeah, No, less right

617
00:45:37.119 --> 00:45:40.039
is I curated an anthology of women's
stories of how they discovered their purpose and

618
00:45:40.199 --> 00:45:44.559
our serving from it. And one
of the very known paths of purpose is

619
00:45:45.480 --> 00:45:49.480
in learning how what ails you in
life? What has ailed you in life?

620
00:45:49.519 --> 00:45:52.480
What have you learned about dealing with
that that you can teach other people?

621
00:45:52.559 --> 00:45:54.760
And that seems to be to me
to be your path. So I

622
00:45:54.840 --> 00:46:00.840
am wildly happy that you are pursuing
this full time. I think the world

623
00:46:00.840 --> 00:46:04.599
desperately needs it and you are uniquely
positioned to be able to give this the

624
00:46:04.639 --> 00:46:10.079
message and the teaching in a way
that is so raw and accessible. Thank

625
00:46:10.119 --> 00:46:14.079
you. I appreciate that. I
really do feel that it is my life's

626
00:46:14.119 --> 00:46:16.800
calling. And when I meet people
like I shared that story with you,

627
00:46:16.880 --> 00:46:21.440
it it just makes me. It
just I just got a chill. Whenever

628
00:46:21.440 --> 00:46:24.159
that happens, I know I'm doing
something good or sing right. That is

629
00:46:24.199 --> 00:46:28.199
exactly right, Karina. No,
I'm delighted, you know. I'm just

630
00:46:28.679 --> 00:46:31.079
very grateful that our pass acrossite.
I think your work is very very powerful.

631
00:46:31.960 --> 00:46:35.400
We're coming to a close here,
and you may not know, but

632
00:46:35.440 --> 00:46:37.559
this show is listened to by people
around the world, and they care about

633
00:46:38.039 --> 00:46:42.519
trying to either improve or better connect
with their work in a more meaningful way

634
00:46:42.559 --> 00:46:45.800
that allows us to contribute. They
want to grow into becoming more inspirational leaders.

635
00:46:45.960 --> 00:46:47.920
They wanted part organizations that are doing
something that better is the world.

636
00:46:49.159 --> 00:46:52.480
What would you like to leave them
with. I would like to leave them

637
00:46:52.519 --> 00:46:57.840
with the idea that no matter what
has happened to you in the past.

638
00:46:57.960 --> 00:47:05.159
You are worthy of a big,
beautiful right life and there is no reason

639
00:47:05.280 --> 00:47:10.679
to hide anymore in that negative self
talk, the negative loop, the stories

640
00:47:10.719 --> 00:47:15.679
that we play in their heads.
And I would also love to offer your

641
00:47:15.719 --> 00:47:19.800
audience you know that very important first
step we talked about the acknowledging your story

642
00:47:19.800 --> 00:47:23.159
and how hard that can be.
On my website, I do offer free

643
00:47:23.199 --> 00:47:29.559
acknowledgment guide, which is a beautiful
way to get started in the journey,

644
00:47:29.719 --> 00:47:32.400
so they can find that on my
website. Awesome, Krein and I will

645
00:47:32.400 --> 00:47:35.840
give that to them in just a
second. I want to thank you for

646
00:47:35.920 --> 00:47:38.440
coming on the Working Purpose podcast.
You have but a beautiful contribution. Happy

647
00:47:38.480 --> 00:47:42.280
to know you, and I can't
wait to get this out into more people's

648
00:47:42.280 --> 00:47:44.840
hands. And I want to see
you do that Ted talk. Let's get

649
00:47:44.880 --> 00:47:45.559
to it already. I have to
do one too, by the way,

650
00:47:45.599 --> 00:47:49.440
so maybe we could do it.
Yeah, let's do it, Okay,

651
00:47:49.440 --> 00:47:52.280
awesome, all right, thank you
so much, Alis, So welcome,

652
00:47:52.360 --> 00:47:55.480
so welcome, listeners and viewers.
You are going to want to continue connecting

653
00:47:55.519 --> 00:47:59.960
with Karina Killcoin the work she does, and definitely check out her book.

654
00:48:00.079 --> 00:48:01.360
You can start by going to the
website she mentioned, let me give it

655
00:48:01.400 --> 00:48:04.719
to you and then I'm going to
spell it for you as well. It's

656
00:48:04.800 --> 00:48:09.599
Karina killcoin dot com. So that's
k A r e n A k I

657
00:48:09.840 --> 00:48:16.079
l c O y n E Karina
killcoin dot com. Last weekend also get

658
00:48:16.079 --> 00:48:21.840
their release with Rise Above the Story. That might be easier. That's Rise

659
00:48:21.880 --> 00:48:24.039
Above Thestory dot Com. That's even
easier. Okay, if you missed the

660
00:48:24.039 --> 00:48:28.000
show last week, you can always
catch it via recorded podcast. We were

661
00:48:28.039 --> 00:48:30.559
on air with David Pearl, the
creator and founder of Street Wisdom, which

662
00:48:30.599 --> 00:48:36.360
provides walkshops of curious discovery around the
world. He's also the author of Wonderful

663
00:48:36.559 --> 00:48:40.280
First First Wonder in the every day
See you next week for you at another

664
00:48:40.360 --> 00:48:45.719
nourishing conversation to help you become more
of an inspirational leader and build your destination

665
00:48:45.760 --> 00:48:49.400
workplace. Remember that work is one
of the best adventures and means of realizing

666
00:48:49.400 --> 00:48:52.760
our potential and making the impact we
crave. So let's work on Purpose.

667
00:48:54.559 --> 00:48:59.159
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to tune into Working on

668
00:48:59.199 --> 00:49:02.800
Purpose feature your host, doctor Elise
Cortes, each week on W four cy

669
00:49:04.320 --> 00:49:09.000
Together We'll create a world where business
operates conscientiously. Leadership inspires and passion performance

670
00:49:09.119 --> 00:49:13.960
and employees are fulfilled in work that
provides the meaning and purpose they crave.

671
00:49:14.400 --> 00:49:15.719
See you there. Let's work on
purpose.