Elevate Yourself to Enlightened Leadership

0:00 The topics and opinions expressed in the following show are solely those of the hosts and their guests and not those of W Forcy Radio. It's employees are affiliates. We make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show programs, services, or products mentioned on air or on our web. No liability explicit or implies shall be extended to W Forcy Radio or its employees are affiliates. Any questions or comments should be directed to those show hosts. Thank you for choosing W Forcy Radio. What's Working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their highest potential.

0:45 Business can be such a force for good in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we all want Working on Purpose. Now here's your host, Doctor Release Cortez. Welcome back to Working and Purpose program again this week. Great to have you. I have been hosting the show since February of twenty fifteen, and it's great to have you. I'm your host, Doctor least Cortez. If we have not met yet and you don't know me, I'm a management consultant, organizational law of therapists, speaker and author. My team and I at least Cortez and associates help companies to enliven and fortify their operations by articulating their purpose and building inspirational leaders and cultures activated by needing and purpose to turn those companies from a flatline EKG to a vibrant destination workplace. There, people are intrinsically motivated to perform with their best regular full of potential, and are committed to stay dynamically deliver on the company's mission. You can learn more about us now we can work together at at least cortez dot com. Getting into today's program, we have with us doctor Matt Pepsil. He's the author of expand the Circle, Enlightened Leadership for Our New World of Work, and host of Lead the People podcast. He serves as VP of Enterprise Solutions at the Predictive Index. Today we'll be talking about his concept of enlightened leadership and discuss a few tips to help develop it and put it into practice. You judge it today from Cape Cod, Massachusetts, doctor Pepsil, Welcome to working on purpose.

2:08 Thank you so much for having me at least excited about today's conversation. Me too, And as I'm prone to do, I'm going to go ahead and just put this up here, and I'm going to tell you something that you probably don't know about your book. Are you ready? I'm ready. What you did in creating this book was easier than bringing a child into or harder than bringing a child into the world. Do you know that? Yeah? I really, I've done both, and so I can I can say it's true. It is much harder to bring a book into the world than it is a child. So hats off, my friend, Thank you, thank you. Yeah, you're welcome. So, of course you know you know that as I as I'm prone to do, I read my guest books cover to cover, and I learned a lot from yours. Before we get into some of the content, I wanted to talk a little bit about your background because I think it's getting clear to me that your background has informed as we us, all of ours. Two, how we look at the world and our work, etc. So let's talk about first, you were a sergeant in the Marines some moons ago and you were serving as an Arabic linguist and radio reconnaissance marine. So interested in what that experience taught you about life, about leadership, about what you do now. Yeah, one of the first things that taught me was how exceptional proper leadership development, how rare it is exceptionally rare, I should say. So. One of the things that I learned early on is that was my first adult job. So I just assume this is how adults go about learning how to do their work. They study leadership and they practice it, and they take it very seriously. And it wasn't until I separated from the military service that I realized that's not always

3:39 the case, of course. So the other thing I think that I really realized at an early age is that not only do you have to study it, it's a craft that has to be studied. It doesn't just happen and manifest on its own. You have to take it seriously, but you also have to reflect on it, you know, and observe what's working on what isn't in your own leadership. When you're getting the results you want and you don't, and then you have to practice it every day. It's that's just the deal. So those are some of the most formative experiences I had about leadership in the Marine Corps. Awesome, and of course I know later on we'll figure out that you learn how to layer in. That's it's an ever ongoing unfolding and you need to keep reaching, so we'll get there. Okay. The next thing I want to talk about, which I don't know if you feel like it's related or at all or has any tenants of a relationship, but fascinating to me that you're also an ironman athlete. That is no small deal. Let me if I can break on what that is for listeners and years we don't know what that is. And you correct me on the numbers on this, because I probably won't get them exactly right. But you start this thing swimming what two point one miles point four am two point four miles, and then you get on a bicycle and you ride for one hundred twelve miles and then you finish that little thing up with a marathon of twenty six point two miles on foot. That's right, It's really something to witness Matt. When I was married, my ex husband did one full iron Man two halves, and I gotta say, you know, it's it's something to watch somebody trained for that and it's amazing to watch them compete. So talk

5:10 to us about what it's like for you to be an iron Man and how that contributes to how you see life world leadership. Yeah, random a marathon a long time ago, and I immediately was plunged into this almost like a minor postpartum depression where I wasn't happy. I thought the marathon is gonna make me happy, and it certainly didn't. A couple of years later, I learned of iron Man as a as a feat right that people can can actually accomplish, and I thought, I don't know that I could do that. And there was a part of my brain that went off and it said, who said that? Let me? And the rational part of my brain kicked in and said, well, let's let's take an inventory here. You're painfully slow runner, you can't swim the link of a pool, you don't own a bike, So let me makes you think you want to do this?

5:55 Is I'm doing it? So it just started to decide that this was a goal that I wanted to pursue, and it took four years of training to get ready for me to tackle that race. That was still a painfully slow runner, and I learned I'm a painfully slow swimmer and bike rider. So I was one of the slowest finishers of one of the world's most iconic races. I have to share a quick story that comes to mind as you're talking about So you're taking me back to two thousand and two, and that's when my then husband did his first half Iron Man in Kona, and I remember just think we all got up early in the morning and they went down and got greased, all their numbers, everything else. And the race starts and everybody's jumping into the sea to do their two point four miles, and you know, and I'm just thinking, man, that's a flurious stuff going on in there. I was really happy to be observing from you know, the beach shore. Anyway, So as they made their swimmers made their turnaround and they were starting to come back, I noticed that, you know, people were getting out of the water and walking very gingerly over what must have been very sharp rocks to get out into the biking area. However, all of a sudden, I saw like three people come, you know, running into the water and they were going to aid the swimmer. I thought, so, but the this person gets help and they reached in and they pulled him up. He has no legs, oh, brings him into the bike area, and I went wow, you know, and I was like, that's so amazing. One of the greatest things what I love about it for me, Matt, is it really showcases the magnificence of the human spirit. So I see this guy card off whatever, and I did the leap frog through

7:27 a race through and saw many of the participants as the race wore on. After the race was over, I told my husband about about This guy's name was Bear. I heard him say their name Barrett, and he said I didn't see that guy. I said, oh, no, no, no, he finished way ahead of you. Yeah. A similar experience where I was almost finished with the run. I had done maybe one loop and there was like three to go, and this woman pulled over on the side to greet her family and she was she was nearly finished. She was well ahead of me and they were holding up side iron mom. You know, they were rooting for their iron mom and it was her first time she had done that race, and it was very moving and I thought, I still have a long way to go. People running with prosalytic limbs. I mean, it's just it's a it's a true thing. So listeners and viewers, if you have never looked at on iron Man, I'm not saying you need to go do on yourself, but just go look at it. It's incredibly inspiring.

8:18 So Matt, thank you for being an inspiration that you did it, and it's fantastic. I'll tell you the one thing too, at least not to spend too much time on this, but the other thing that I recognize is that I finished iron Man knowing it wouldn't make me happy. So when we talk about elevation and personal growth, that was something that I still had the goal, but I let go of this attachment to the notion that it was going to complete me or fulfill me or give me self worth. I had abandoned that somehow between a marathon that I thought was going to make me happy. I still finished iron Man, but not because I thought it would. But I still enjoyed it all the more. It's beautiful. I loved being a cheerlead. Let me say, I'm happy to be a runner, but I'm happy to cheerlead on that particular event. Yeah, okay, So let's talk about what you're doing at the Predictive Index today. I'm known at this organization for many, many, many years, but I don't know that I'm really clear about what it does and certainly what your role is. Yeah, certainly, the predict Ve Index produces what's known as a talent optimization platform.

9:13 So when you think about collecting data about people about the work that we ask people to do leadership at every level, it's a really great opportunity to collect behavioral data as an example, and really use it for our coaching and development, the way we hire people, the way we onboard them and grow them. You know, if we do that without data, it's a little bit reckless. My role there is to work with some of the largest, most complex accounts on the planet, so working with clients in Fortune five hundred, federal government, some of the more pioneering aspects, and really enjoy that work. I've been there over ten years. That's awesome, that's so great. It should be like that as doctors. Who says you should enjoy what you're doing, so many people don't. That's part of the reason we host this show. Okay, so let's get into some of the content here.

9:56 What I want to do here is I want to talk about some of the concepts that you talk by the book that I think are pretty interesting, and then toward the end of the show, I want to get into some of the tips that listeners and viewers can can start to apply to use what you put forth perfectly. So. So one of the first things you said in the book that grabbed me was you you said that many workers can adequately meet their basic needs, you know, through most any any employer, but beyond that, they continue to experience what you refer to as the three killer bees you talk about these killer bees. Yeah, absolutely, it's it's something that if you think about the way that we used to work to meet our minimal needs, it was fairly challenging. You think about factory work and these sorts of things. Well, today, if you think about what's truly required in life, a lot of our knowledge workers, for example, could could meet those needs pretty pretty straightforward. But when we talk about more existential needs, we've graduated to a point where we expect and need and demand more from our work and than we ever have in the course of human history. And when I started to think about this, the three bees that I that you had, that I had talked talked about was being, belonging, and something bigger than myself. Those are the three existential needs that I feel that workers have really started to embrace. And I kind of, to be honest with you, at least I kind of it was kind of throwaway line from me.

11:13 It was memorable, sure, but it encapsulated something and people are like that, yes, that's what I'm feeling, and they really just took hold of this concept and it really demanded that I included in the book in a big way. The reason why I call them the killer bees is because when we don't meet those needs, it kills our performance and our productivity, our intent to stay, our loyalty, all these things. And so this is where I believe that leaders in the future are going to have to reconcile that it's not just pay that keeps people in place. It's not you know, the old foodsball table analogies that we used to use, but it is really helping people become something closer to their full potential right, realizing and learning what they're all about and starting to manifest that, developing real, nurturing social ties with the people around them and feeling a part of something, and then that something had better be something bigger than themselves because their own self interests are too limiting.

12:05 And I see this with people who who are successful and realize that is this all there is? I feel like there, I feel like I've missed something, and this opportunity to connect our companies why with our individuals why as an example, hugely important. So I feel like the three bees are here to stay, being in belonging and something bigger than myself and the wise leaders, the more evolved, the more enlightened leaders will recognize how to help people connect those dots for themselves within the context of the company's mission. Beautifully and eloquently cited. Thank you for that, Matt. You know that I agree with every single last word that you uttered, because that's the work that I'm trying to do in companies too, is to help them create a workplace, a destination workplace where people can be their best and they can realize their potential and it work. Is that wonderful playground that I wanted to be instead of the bad negative for a letter work that it is for so many people, very true. Further to this, excuse me, you go on to say that, of course, you know money isn't enough to retain workers, although you know workers are now better aware of their own value, But you do go on to talk about job fulfillment and the ability to be one's true self are among the three top deciding factors for people to stay or to lead jobs.

13:18 So I want to I want to dig into that ability to be one's true self at work. Yeah. Absolutely, well, And even before I comment on that, I think you know, what I enjoyed about the book is that it doesn't include sources from more new age. Sometimes we think about these woo woo type stuff. This is McKinsey, this is PwC, this is Deloitte, These are you know, very specific, this is what's happening. And our management consultants, who you know, we like to cite them for so many different reasons, they're recognizing this as well. So I believe that was a Price Waterhouse Cooper's study that you had cited there. Yes, it is. Yeah, and it's so so critical when we think about the ability to bring our full selves to work. So the diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, all these types of movement hugely important. But we're also talking about just strength. When I feel like I have to hold something back because it wouldn't be appreciated at work, that takes energy from me and it makes me feel less than what I truly am. And so how can a leader create opportunities, demonstrate an interest, maybe help individuals find out what their natural strengths are they may be hidden even to them, and help them channel and find ways to express them through their work. That's what's going to keep the workers in place. I see so many gen Z employees coming into the workforce now, latest generation, and the environment in which they're entering is crafted by people who are at the top of that organization that are boomers and gen x and have a very different mindset when it comes to work, and they're

14:50 watching top talent come in the door and it's a revolving door and they go right back out because they just are not going to put up with having that sort of feeling about what work is supposed to be for them, and we're it's supposed to lead them if that does. If that it doesn't get scratched, you know, there's no penalty for them to move on to the next opportunity. There's they're not seeing his job hoppers anymore. So that's where I feel like that's got to come together. Beautifully excited. I want to give our listeners and dear as a chance to chew on that, because I want to respond to what you said. But let's take our first break here. We've been on the air with Matt Pepsil. He is the author of expand the Circle, Enlightened Leadership for Our New World of Work. He's also the host of Lead the People podcast serves as the VP of Enterprise Solution at the Predictive Index. I'm your host at least Cortez. We've been talking about about his background and some of the immediate concepts in his book. After the Breaker, are going to cover a few more and then get into the tips.

15:43 Stay with us. We'll be right back. Doctor Elise Cortez as a management consultant specializing in meaning and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite a lease to speak to your organization, please visit her at Elise Cortez dot com. Let's talk about how to get your employees working on purpose. This is Working on Purpose with doctor Elise Cortez. To reach our program today or to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Elise ali Se at Elise Cortez dot com. Now back to working on Purpose.

16:52 Thanks for staying with this and welcome back to working on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortez, as I too, am dedicated to helping create a world where people realize the potential. I work like we've been talking about, and they are led by inspirational leaders that help them find and contribute their greatness. And we do business at Bettors in the world. I continue to write my own books, and so one of my latest books that came out in March of twenty three is called The Great Revitalization, How activating meaning and purpose can radically enliven your business, and that's designed to help leaders understand what today's workforce really wants and then offers twenty two best projects to help equip them provide the leadership and culture that can actually can actually do. So you've learn more about my books and how to get them out at least Cortez dot com if you are just now joining us. My guest is doctor Matt Pepsil.

17:33 He's the author of expand the Circle, Enlightened Leadership for Our World, our New World of Work, and is the host of Lead the People podcast. So if I can comment on while you were just talking about with the new gen Z generation coming in their math that I think is really fascinating. My daughter is a gen Z but from when I talk about generations, I really like to think that every generation that comes makes us better as as a species. And so you know, we when we can I'm the very end of Gen X. We came in and you know, we were we were we were interested in experience, et cetera, but responsibility but also just being there was a freedom element that there's important to our generation. When when the Millennials or wise came in, they taught us we didn't have to work eighty hours a week or even sixty hours for that matter, and that they could that there was a way to be able to do your work within through an expression of your values. And gen Z is teaching us that we can and should expect that we can make a difference in the world through the work that we do. There's purpose in that. And because between the two of them, the WISE and z's, they will the zs will be what thirty percent of the workforce by twenty thirty, and then together the Y and Z will be fifty percent by about that time. It's forcing the hand and that means that organizations must address the meeting a purpose element if they want to stay. They want, if they want workers to actually do something, to be able to bring their mission to life. And it can't just be lips are of us.

19:00 It can't just be your website that says it. But then when they get inside the four walls, virtual or otherwise, it turns out not to be true. I think that they've proven time and again that if they take a job and it turns out to be not what they thought it was, you know, they'll move on very quickly, and more power to them. And I think many are opting for the gig economy too as well, you know, But basically saying I think that to some extent, corporate is reaping what we've sown when it comes to showing disloyalty by having massive layoffs to try to make the numbers look the way the street wants them to. And you know, gen Z is like, we're well informed and we don't have to put up with that. We have options, And so they're speaking loud and clear, both through their actions and through just being vocal as they are.

19:41 And I think the wise leaders will listen and say, you know, the way that we were that we came up, like I'm gen X, the way that my senior leadership would have, you know, communicated to me through norms and mores. What it took to get to the top is not what it's going to take anymore. Everything in the world of work has changed. We have to realize that, and we have to be prepared to change along with it. I think it's great news, and I'll comment on that more, but but I want to hear I think that your idea of enlightened leadership is spot on. I think it's time has come. Tell us about what you mean by enlightened leadership. Yeah, and when we talk about enlightened leadership, we're talking about taking new beliefs, new attitudes, and out throwing out the old ones. I think so much of what passes for leadership sort of state of the art thinking inside of how we do management training programs today is actually fifty sixty seventy years old at least, and it hasn't been updated.

20:37 And so for me, when I talk about enlightened, it's really kind of if you think about the age of Enlightenment and coming out of the dark ages, and that's really what I like to to channel in terms of an analogy and what I find in my personal view of this and my own personal experience, it's been this infusion and an integration of ancient wisdom traditions predominantly from the along with Western psychological science. And I feel that we don't have to leave one for the other, We don't have to go backwards in time. We can integrate the two and really bring them together in a way that does light the path for the future. And so that's when I think of enlightenment, I think that's really the opportunity we have is to move past some of the outdated practices that are so common today by turning to the past when there was a different time one that looks vague, you know, very familiar to for example, the gen z that you pointed out, meaning and purpose. These are not new topics over the course of human history and philosophy. We just need to have the courage to you to go there and to bring it bring it in. Yeah, and I think people, organizations and layers need to be equipped to do that. It's it's it's so obvious, but it's not immediately natural. And that's why I like doing the work that I do.

21:52 So Okay, so now from here, I think now is a good time to bring in and introduce that you have been long studying Buddhists. So where did you get that interest and what do you what has that practice taught you again about life and leadership? Yeah, you may have had the same experience as I did once and we started our doctoral programs and one of the things that they asked is to do so I'm just getting started. I was so excited I enrolled in this PhD program. I knew it was going to be you know, four to five to six years of study and dissertation work, etc. Very first class. They said, you have to find somebody who's practicing in an area similar to what you might want to do, so you can interview them and just just learn about them. Okay, great, so I said, I found an executive coach in Brookline, Massachusetts. Got on the phone with this person and he said, before I tell you anything about what I do, tell me about what you're trying to do. And I had not really thought about how to articulate the answer that question, I said.

22:45 I said, well, sir, I look around and I see people suffering, and I see them regardless of socioeconomic status, their level in the organization, their skills, there's nothing, there's no commonality. I just see people suffering and I want to help them. And he said that to me, sounds like a bodhisattva, and I said, I have no idea what you're talking about. Come to find out that he was referring to a realized being within Buddhist philosophy that has basically worked really hard to drop a lot of the negativity that comes along with the human condition long and grained. But rather than enter into nirvana their state, they stayed behind to help everyone sort of realize and make a similar achievement before you know, moving on to the next stage. And so I found that very compelling, and I thought, well, let me look into this a little bit. And I had a friend at the time who had studied a little bit more than I had, and gave me a book on that was called The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying.

23:44 And I read the book and it was very interesting, but I got busy with life kind of put it on the shelf and didn't really look at it for another fifteen years or so. And then right during the pandemic, when all of us had a very profound experience about our work and our life change and a reprioritization, if you will, I started to have the same questions of what role do I want work to play in my life? And I didn't have the answers, and so I went back to my bookshelf and I found that book that I hadn't looked at in fifteen years, and it said, in order to before we're going to die, in order to die well, we have to first learn how to live well. And I said, well, I knew that first part was going to happen. You know, I'm ready. I'm right in the middle of my midlife crisis. Is fine, I'm I'm not terribly afraid of my mortality, but that that middle part, or the second part about learning how to live well, I said, Man, that's not me right now. So that brought me back and I started to sharpen up my studies and really kind of delve into the philosophy of it a lot more. I really appreciate that story, Matt. A couple of things to add on to that or to comment on. As you and I talked about before we got on air, I am and increasingly got my finger on the pulse that there is so much talk going on about elevated consciousness and wholeness, integrity and its even the spirituality of our connections, etc.

25:03 And I've had some amazing guests on the show. We're doing remarkable work in that realm. And then just recently I happened to somebody recommended me and I did read the whole book. Author excuse me, actor and author Rain Wilson wrote a book called Soul Boom, and it's why we need a spiritual revolution. Anyway. He puts forth this idea of this new this idea of what that could look like. It's pretty interesting and compelling, and by the way, listeners and viewers, if anybody knows how to get a hold of that man, and I would love to have them on my show. But so really interesting and I appreciate so much. And I agree with you. And you wrote in the book too about this, about how the pandemic elevated our desire to want something more meaningful from our lives, less big, less busy, and more meaningful, and I completely agree with that. Yeah, And I also feel like there's this technological advancement that we've enjoyed for decades now, and it seems like every day there's a new capability and new gadget.

26:00 Some holy can I can't believe this is It works this way, but it hasn't absolved the reality that there's a fundamental part of the human condition that's challenging to us. And I think there always will be, you know, no matter how much advancement we get, how much we think we can make things efficient and run a certain way. People you know, in their mental health state right now is worse than it's ever been by many measures. And I think there's a certain price to be paid for the pace and constantly the driver consumerism, etc. You can't engineer yourself out of the human condition. And so I think when people see that and they hit the boundary of what we can reasonably expect, we're left with those existential questions. And I think that might be one of those things where people realize that we're so comfortable, we're miserable and they're looking for a way out. And I think that bringing consciousness into the work and having seeing works as a pathway to our full potential and forward progress, you know, as a society. I think it's very compelling for an increasing percentage of the working population. I know it is when I go out and to what instance to speak about that, I mean, people are leaning forward, like yeah, I want that. And to that end, I want to also share. You talk about Martha Beck, who's an author and a Harvard trained psychologist in your book, and I really like how you quote what she talks about the importance of, you know, bringing our full and genuine selves to work, which we've been talking about, but you talk about in her book the Way of Integrity, finding the path to our true self. You write and you quote of her, when you experience unity

27:33 of intention, fascination and purpose, you live like a bloodhound on a scent, joyfully doing what feels truest in each moment. Isn't that beautiful? That is incredibly stunningly beautiful, achingly beautiful. Yeah. So when I read that research at the time, and she really talks about integrity is in a form of like structural integrity, like an airplane. If you're writing in a plane, you're hoping that it has structural integrity, not just not just merely the ethics and the truthfulness of that word sometimes. And I think that that's very, very fair. But I think what I came to learn later, through the course of many conversations and research as well, what holds us back from being our full integral selves is fear. It's fear. And I saw fear show up time and again in our relationships and in our organizations. It's what prevents psychological safety. But you know what, it also deeply affects us individually.

28:25 So I feel like what prevents us sometimes from bringing our full selves to work is not merely that other people are tamping it down. It's that we ourselves are holding ourselves back because of fear. And so I had not gone into this book project expecting to see fear show up the way that it did. And it was very impactful for me to see that beautiful And by the way, Matt, you know, as I'm a connoisseur of books, I read a book every single week for this radio program and other books as well. I really like your writing style. It's just so easy to read. I love how you introduce the authors. I love how you use pause to be able to interact and engage with us readers. It's lovely. Thank you so much. Yes, I was. I really enjoyed the writing process.

29:10 I think it's something that not everyone does. I get that, but the chance to do a long format piece like this and really do the research and learn how to become a better writer is something that is It was part of the process and something that really connected me to the work. So I really appreciate you saying that. I see you consume a lot of books. It's very impressive. Yeah, thank you. You're very welcome. It's really beautiful. It's important for me for me and to be my true self, is to acknowledge when I see my guests doing something amazing, I want to be sure and tell themselves so well, And you mentioned so as we're on the topic too, you know, I was, I was afraid. I was afraid to write this book. I was afraid to be authentic and share some of my more advanced thinking and concepts, things I haven't figured out yet, and be as i'll say, vulnerable. I guess it's transparent as possible about you know, some of the underpinnings of my work, and also to use humor. You know, I'm not saying it always war, but I try to incorporate some humans. That's a natural part of who I am. And if I was to try to write a strictly academic book, it wouldn't be me. And not everyone's going to groove with my book. I get that, because you know, I'm not for everybody either. But it took a certain amount of willingness to pursue the integrity I was writing about in terms of embracing an authentic writing style. But I tell you in the end, I'm glad I did. I understand, my friends, I really understand you are being vulnerable. You are putting yourself out there in a very very vulnerable way when you put your words, in your thoughts out there. I get it.

30:36 Yeah, sure, that okay, So now we got to do something totally different here that I just think is really really fantastic. In your book that I just riveted on, you went on and talked about a couple of studies here that really spoke to the idea of empathic capacity, and you write about rats and babies, and I am really compelled by that research. Would you just briefly talk to us a bit about, you know, how these two pieces of research relate to our empathic capacity and our ability that on that neurobiological level to connect with each other. Yeah. I found that the study with rats was just incredible. So what had happened is the research team put a rat in a cage, and they had a second cage, a smaller cage in the center, and they would put a toy rat in there, and the rats that the subject rats, would not free the toy rat at all, but if they put another rat into the trapped in the center cage, they would spring the cage open so that the two of them could kind of run about together. And so you're like, okay, that makes sense.

31:37 But then when they decided to up the stakes a little bit, they put chocolate in the cage, and so now the rat had the free rat had the chance to either eat all the chocolate or to help its buddy, and it's sprung its buddy before be consuming all the chocolate, and you're like, wait a second. They could either sense the distress in the rat, they felt some empathic connection, they acted in this altruistic way, and and so it really showed sort of the biological basis of empathy in that way. Well, the complimentary study about babies was fascinating to me too, because there was this I'll summarize it very briefly, but there was a research team at Yale who put together a puppet show and basically had these toys acting out either being a helper or a hinderer to a third toy that was trying to achieve its goal. And then at the end they were putting on this play for a baby, and so they would go to the six month old or whatever it was baby and say, okay, here are the toys that we just featured in the play, and without fail, it would reach for the helper toy and it wouldn't want to play with the hinderer toy. So it's almost as if like at such an early age, we're prewired for this. Later on in that same chapter, I do bring in the neurobiological research from doctor Helen Reece and others who are actually studying empathy, and it makes sense that we're as a survival mechanism or for whatever reason, it's wired into our brains to have empathy. What that means is that when we act in a way that's not empathic, when we're more self oriented than other oriented, we're actually

33:07 over overwriting our natural wiring and there's something causing that to happen. Again, back to fear, So it's it was fascinating a tight little chapter there with lots of different inputs for us to kind of gnawn. I thought it was tremendous. I really really jam when I when I can read about things that really take me out of the you know this standard leadership or a business from and really make me think. So it was beautiful. Mat I tried to do that a couple of times. We're pulling in some unexpected sources of inspiration and some analogies that might not be be everyday analogies, because I think we all those of us who study the craft like as you do, as I do and your listeners do. We consume a lot of content and you start to hear some of the same analogies over and over again, or the same people get cited, and that's great. But I think that giving some people something unexpected it kind of opens the mind a little bit and creates an opportuned to plant some new seeds. And that was very deliberate on my part.

34:02 Well, I loved it. In fact, we're going to cover one of those in just a second. Here, I'm gonna I'm gonna dangle it in just a second. So I'm your host, doctor Elias Cortez. We're going on the air with doctor Matt Pepsil. He's the author of expand the Circle, Enlightened Leadership for Our New World of Work. Is also the host of Lead the People podcast. He serves as the VP of Enterprise Solutions at the Predictive Index as well. We've been talking a bit about some of the content of a book here again that relates to the importance of just bringing our full self, meaning all the sort of thing. After the break, we're going to first talk about what we can learn from what has been learned from near death experiences, and then we're going to also get into some of those tips that you can actually use immediately in your own leadership. Stay with us, We'll be right back. Doctor Relie Ease Cortez is a management consultant specializing and meaning and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author. She helps companies visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite a lease to speak to your organization, please visit her at Elise Cortez dot com. Let's talk about how to get your employees working on purpose.

35:30 This is working on Purpose with doctor Elise Cortez. To reach our program today or to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Elise ali Se at Elise Cortez dot com. Now back to working on Purpose. Thankteresting with us, and welcome back to working on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortez. As I mentioned in the last break about my latest book, The Great Revitalization That's Out, I want to did to accompany. That is, I created an assessment for you to be able to see if to what extent your organization actually is activated by and working for meeting a purpose. You can find it on my website at least Cortes dot com and then navigate to how we can help tap to actually find it if you're just joining us.

36:15 My guest is Matt Pepsil. He is the author of Expand the Circle, Enlightened Leadership for our New World of Work, and also the host of the Lead the People podcast. So before we get into this idea of near death, which is fascinating in and of itself, I do want to go back and connect the dots for our readers and listeners here. So back that story about the rats and the babies and the empathy and their neurological connection. There you talked about one tip that you put forth in your book was to increase your awareness and appreciation regarding how we're all intrinsically connected in ways that we don't always consider, and tap into our unique human bond to boost the flow of positive intent and action between us. So, what does that look like in the real world? What is that? Can you put that forward for us in terms of an example of what that looks like, how somebody could actually do that. Yeah, I think one of the examples that I see quite often right now is change management. You know, we're often as leaders in a position where we're trying to lead our organizations and help them navigate some sort of change. So let's say that I'm working with an individual and I'm asking them to change up something about the way they approach their work or whatever it might be to accommodate and support this bigger organizational change. Well, if I come at from my me issues, right, I'm like, we've got to get this done. We've been talking about this for weeks at the executive level.

37:35 It's now time for us to go all eyes are on me. I got to make sure my function in my department is like on board with this. Wait a second time out. You have an individual, you know, who's in your office, virtual or otherwise, and they're dealing and processing this change. So knowing that we're connected, back to your question, have you ever been on the receiving end of change? Like, how did that feel? Like you have that shared experience? Can you find that opportunity to not sort of come from that place of I'm driving, I'm leading in this egocentric bit, but to realize like we've all been there, like this is a shared experience that we have or Let's say that you know you have like like in my life right now, I have older pets and they're all not doing so well right now. Has the people that I worked with have do they have older pets? Have they lost a pet? Like? What does this have to do with work? It doesn't. It has to do with human connection, and that's what work is built on top of. So I think the ability to recognize that we're more connected both in terms of our shared experience is much less the metaphysical aspects that I talk about a little bit in the book as well. It's just about understanding the universality of the human condition and using that as a way to make sure that we're understanding that level of connection.

38:51 You know that, I love that beautiful. Okay, So now I've already mentioned this. I do want to get into what you addressed in your book about your experiences and some of the literature and studies that you read about that and to do so, let me just set it up here for our listeners and viewers. You say in your book that in less than an estimated five percent of cases, subjects reported having a negative experience, such as feeling themselves in a sensory deprived, black void, and then you went on. Fortunately, positive near death experiences are much more common. In these cases, the subject often reports having had a sense of timelessness, peace, cosmic unity, a profound connectingness to others, and being the recipient of unconditional love. That's pretty pretty miraculous. Yeah, it sounds better. Let's go with that.

39:36 It does. Yeah, well, it's unusual to open up a leadership book and start reading near death experiences. I acknowledge and admit that, But I think the reality is, if we're truly going to step into the definition what leadership is all about, Leadership is about life, Leadership is about love, and I think you can't escape it. You can try to pretend like, you know, the work we do in organizations very superficial and just kind of hang out the surface of the water, but it's not the full depth in the domain of leadership in my opinion. So when I decided to write this framework of mine, and I teach in the book how to lead yourself and how to lead others, and lead your team, lead your organization, finally get out to lead the world, and you're talking about again, inspired by some of these meditative techniques, how do you stretch as far as you can you reach the limits of kind of what we know. So for me that led me to study research from Bruce Grayson, and he's out of the University of Virginia, talking about in a book of his called After that was all about documenting scientifically as we can near death experiences. So for me, what this really showed in terms of this research was, I don't know if i'd call it reassuring, but I think it's it's beyond you know, coincidental that across all of these different demographics and parts of the world, and they've done so much research about people who've had near death experiences to see the commonalities.

40:52 It was very, very compelling to me that there's things that we absolutely just don't understand but that are absolute part of that type of an experience. Yeah, it was really compelling. And to your point, I love that you introduced something that otherwise wouldn't otherwise show up in a leadership book and I really commend that. And to take that further that one of the other tips that you give us here, And by the way, listeners and viewers, what he does so beautifully is you know, he's got all this beautiful conceptual framework. But then he gives you all of these tips and takeaways at each at the end of each of the chapters. It's awesome. So one of the tips that you give us is you call it says go beyond, and you say, don't ignore the existential questions that shape our lives and our work. Kind of what we were talking about before, and to push past the boundary and connect with your enlightened leadership potential. So again, what does that look like on the basis of what we were just talking about. Yeah, if I think back to some of the most memorable conversations I've had and the most connection I've had, the most breakthrough realizations I've had with co workers, it's often come from these pushing the boundary type conversations. I remember an old boss of mine. We would stay in his office late at night. We talked about quantum physics and he was very into this and telling me things and this is not the normal stuff of a business conversation, but we effortlessly weaved you know, concepts of work and beyond work and all these kinds of things.

42:14 And uh, and in fact, I was I learned about Bruce Grayson's work from near death experiences from a coworker. And so if I had only restricted our conversations and we were only comfortable having those superficial hallway type conversations that we think work is supposed to be about, and let's not go to those existential type questions, what a missed opportunity, not even just to you know, deepen ourselves, but to truly practice leadership. So you know, we don't want to go beyond whatever someone's comfortable with. Proselytizing and going deep into dogma is never okay. But I think that being willing to explore together sort of and pressing those boundaries beyond what is conventional, I think has been some of the most landmark, most progressive, the most beneficial the way that I can show up in my leadership for those around me. They comment to me later and talk about the impact that I've had on them because of a willingness to go there and to really explore those things together. So I don't want to see us miss an opportunity to truly demonstrate leadership because of very outdated conventions are very isolationist type thinking. Totally agree, which is why the last chapter and the re revitalization is on spiritual intelligence in the workplace, So in cultivating that so for me, they'll see only kind of conversations I like to have if you're not going to shore, so with me, don't waste my time.

43:37 It's one of my mantras which is really great for dating. Let me tell you you ever see anybody run so fast? Well, and here's the other thing that's important too, leadership. I'll give you the cliffs Notes version. It ain't about you, right right, It's about the mission and it's about them. Like the more you can remove yourself and the ego from the equation and sort of be an interest for this to flow more naturally, all the better. Well what does that mean in terms of you use the S word, Oh my gosh, spiritual. Well, here's the reality. When you start looking at the new entrance to the workforce that are more exploring, more comfortable with everything from from yoga to this, that and the other thing, and they're willing to talk about these things. You have to be prepared to give the people what they want, right the old adage, and I think that people are looking for something in their lives. They want something meaningful.

44:29 You mentioned gen Z and even millennials talking about things like sustainability is important to them, so it's better to be important to you. And the reality is that mental wellness is important to them, and mind training and meditative practices, mindfulness at work. When these things are important to your followers, they're important to you, or at least they'd better be. I agreed. Coming up to the end of the show already, man, it goes by so fast. So before we go, I want to make sure that what we do here is we kind of bring up land the plane, if you will, Brian Williams, that's for you. That's what he says all the time, Land the Plane. So what I want to get to here is you in your chapter lighting the lamp for others. If you talk about starting small in an organization, you know, really maybe starting a pilot program. So many organizations don't invest in developing their people. So could you say a little bit about just getting started with something like this. Yeah, absolutely, I feel like I agree with one hundred percent. Too many organizations aren't making the investment. They either don't know how they're they're not aware of how. It's absolutely showing up at work every day, meaning the gaps so, but at the same time, taking it on a big, monolithic leadership development program is probably too much for some people to take on. So a pilot program is a great opportunity, whether there's one progressive function or division. Maybe you have a team of high potentials that you want to do something special to let them know that you really care about their their long term development. Great place to start. Don't be surprised if others start asking for which is a really good thing too. So I feel like making it manageable, starting, you know, with a progressive I think we're talking about my specific book, which has

46:00 a nice natural framework to unfold it over time with real practical tips. I think it's got to pertain to the business, the day to day work. It has to be tangible, has to be grounded in science, you know. So make sure you do that. But start small and just kind of let it go. Yeah, get the thing moving. Okay. So you know by now math that this program is listened to by people around the world, and what we are really in together for is helping to create a place where people people can really come alive within their work, they can realize their potential. They are led by inspirational leaders that do see their value, their strengths and lead them to their greatness. And we do business betters in the world, what which you'll have to leave them with. I think seeing work is the opportunity it is for us to progress individually. Collectively, Our work is an opportunity to practice some of these types of enlightened techniques. When we talk today about empathy, we could be talking about vision and cohesion, cooperation, lots of themes from the book. Work isn't something we do and then we go home to try to figure out sort of the rest of life.

47:04 I think that those barriers, if they were ever had a place, they're long gone. You know. Now today everything is so integrated and intertwined, entangled even and I think when we've tried to pretend like I can have my work life and then I go home and have my home life, that's not the case. When we look at work as an opportunity to develop ourselves and to grow and to contribute to those around us, and to pour our energies into an organization that ideally is making you. Stakeholder capitalism and you had a guests and recently talk about stakeholder capitalism. It has a chance to make the world a better place. Pouring our energy in that way and not diverting it, I think is the opportunity we have with work if we can do it right. Completely agree, Matt. And it's really a delight to get to know you, have you on my program and it's happened before. I'll give you the same threat as I have other people. I have been known to show up on my guest stoorsteps, So just you know, okay, warning, I love it. Okay, And I'll add one more thing to what you said there. Listeners and viewers, let me just give you a pose.

48:01 This question to you. Do you think you're not actually living when you're working? So working is also a living something to ponder Listeners and viewers. If you want to learn more about doctor Matt Pepsol, his book, podcast, or the work he does at the Predictive Index, you can start by going to his personal website. It's Matt Pepsol. Let me spell that for you because it's not obvious. Matt. Matt Pepsil is p O E p sel so Matt Pepsil dot com. Last week we missed the live show. You can always catch it be recorded podcast. We were on the Eric doctor Peter Kim talking about his fantastic new book, How Trust Works, The science of how relationships are built, broken and repaired. We've got so many new insights about trust and why sometimes an apology is a bad idea. Next week we'll be on the Eric Paulina Marinova pomp Piano talking about her book Hidden Genius, The secret ways of thinking that power the world's most successful people. See you there, and remember work as an integral part of our lives and one of our best adventures and means of Let's our potential making the impact we create.

49:01 So let's work on purpose. We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortez, each week on W four CY. Together we'll create a world where business operates conscientiously, Leadership inspires and passion performance, and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning and purpose they create. See you there, Let's work on Purpose.