Decoding the Mystery of Personality – Unlocking Deeper Connection and More Dynamic Results

0:00 The topics and opinions express in the following show are solely those of the hosts and their guests and not those of W FOURCY Radio. It's employees are affiliates. We make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show programs, services, or products mentioned on air or on our web. No liability explicit or implies shall be extended to W four CY Radio or its employees are affiliates. Any questions or comments should be directed to those show hosts. Thank you for choosing W FOURCY Radio. What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their highest potential. Business can be such a force for good in the world, elevating humanity.

0:49 In our program, we provide guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we all want working on Purpose. Now here's your host, doctor Elise Cortes. Welcome back to the Working Purpose Program, which has been brought to you with passionate price since February of twenty fifteen. Thanks for tuning in this week. Great to have you. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes. I'm joining you today from McCallan, Texas, where I'm down here speaking for a conference. If we have not met before and you don't know me, I'm an organizational psychologist and logoist, speaker and author, and my team and I at Gusto Now help companies to enliven it and fortify their operations by building a dynamic, high performance culture and inspirational leadership activated by needing a purpose.

1:32 You learn more about and how we can work together at Gusto dashnow dot com or my personal site, Atliscortes dot com. Before we get into today's program, I'm thrilled to announce that registration is now open for a fabulous new conference for women, for which I'll serve as the MC is called Thrive in twenty five and as a jam packed few days in Chicago, June twenty fifth through twenty eighth, twenty twenty five, designed to develop women as whole selves, from bolstering your mindset to your financial acumen to leadership, to incorporating nature and art into your life to raise consciousness and much more. You can visit Thrive dash in twenty five the number thrive in two five for information and to register. Use my promo code Gusto all caps to gain access to free books and programs all the gifting residents as well. See you there now getting in today's program we have with us today. Eric Gee who has administered personality based life coaching for more than twenty years. He built a successful education company that used his personality typing method to better their lives of more than twenty thousand students, parents and teachers. As the creator of the Utopia Project website and the Utopia sixteen assessment, he has disseminated his method to over half a million users since the website's creation in twenty sixteen. His coaching program has been used in companies like Hulu and Disney, universities and over forty school districts. He's the author of the Power of Personality. Unlock the secrets you understand everyone in your life, including yourself, which will be talking about today.

2:56 He jointed to take from Los Angeles. Eric A very hearty welcome to working on purpose own. I thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here all the way from Elan. I love it, and I got to tell you, brilliant one. I loved reading your book. I thought it was delightful. It had way more personality than any book that I can ever remember. By the way, my friend and I took forty six pages of typewritten notes because that's how much I got from it. Yeah, and you know, I'm sure that not a whole lot of personality types or personality books will mention like the barrel joke and also Robert Rory's last second shot against the Sacramento Kings. But that's just my role. That's how I like the right. I want like engage people. I think personality should be fun because in the sense, we're reading about ourselves and the people around us, and I think that should be fun, right, I mean, people are fun, they are.

3:42 I couldn't agree more. Well, you really brought it to life. I was. I was really dazzled by your work. I'm so happy to know you and we met right here on LinkedIn, which is amazing. So thank you for seeing yes to my invite. And thank you for inviting me. You're welcome. Well, we have to start with the obvious question, Eric, and that is, you know, We've got to talk about your back and just how you found your way into personality and education. How come not accounting? Why not architecture? What are we doing in personality and education? Oh gosh, I'm glad that I didn't go in accounting, and I'm sure a lot of people are glad that I'm not your accountant, you know. You know, I started, like everything else that starts more young, right, and for me when I was young, like I didn't always feel like I always got along and fit in only because I had to work for it. But you know, at the end of the day, like I found like the things that I really liked and the things that I valued were maybe a little different than some of my friends the people around me, And that really got me into studying like that people can be different, so that all the different types of personality methodology, right, Like there's Meers Briggs slash MBTI, the nogram, you know, disc like all those different versions. And I studied that quite a bit, like when I was in high school and in college, and then it eventually led to me owning my own education company and I'd work with maybe a thousand students a year, as mentioned in the intro, and I through that, I started experimenting and kind of developing the personality typing methodologies that I learned and kind of improving on them.

5:05 And that's kind of where the book came about. Is basically that just like the culmination of all the research and practical experience that I dealt with working with the education company that I owned. How did you use your personality methodology in an education format with students? You know? It's you know, it's the most important thing is for my teachers. I would definitely teach it to the teachers that work for my company, right, because teachers tend to be or fall into a specific kind of personality type. And now, of course I'm throwing out a wide net. That's not every teacher, but a large majority of teachers do, and I felt it was important for them to understand their own bias. Right, Like, if you're a teacher and you value safety and security, then let's say you meet a student. You have a student who that's not their core value. Their core value is excitement, right, And if you value excitement, then you also like taking risks, right, Because taking a risk is exciting the natural instinct for a teacher who value safety and security is to say be careful, right, But if you tell that to student who values excitement and risk taking, that basically takes away their power, right, because their power comes from their ability to take calculator risk. And if you tell them be careful, especially at a young age, they're going to They're going to think they're weird or is there's something wrong with them.

6:19 So I would always tell my teachers tell them to concentrate or tell them to focus, because essentially that's kind of what you're doing, is telling them to be careful, like, but it's a different way, right. The way they'll read it is it's okay for me to be who I am. It's okay for me to take risks. I just have to focus when I do it, and I think that will lend itself to a better learning outcome for that particular student. And that's just one of the many examples that I get, you know, my experience. There no doubt it also hats off you know, you say in your book that you know here you are a young you know, self proclaimed Asian twenty seven year older. I think you said, running this education company, And of course the students and parents were looking right past. You wanted to know where the boss was. And I just want to commend you for just what you birthed, Derek, what you did, what you created, the lives you touched.

7:02 Just it's one of the reasons I wanted to have you on the shows. You're inspiring. Oh well, thank you. I mean, I don't even inspire myself, but I'm glad that I inspired you my book, you know, And that is a funny story. Yeah, Like when I was like I was twenty seven, I probably looked like I was twenty one. And what's funnier is my director, who is five years younger than me, looked like she was probably a high school And here we were standing trying to tell parents, hey, we can educate your kids and help them grow, you know, and they're just like, yeah, they'd be like, where's your boss, and we're going to go on to the AUA. Yeah, And we always made sure to dress up really nicely because we're like, we got to like dress the part, you know, because people are going to think we're kids. But yeah, thank you for doing all those nice things. Though. You're welcome. You're ahead of your time, and I'm really happy to know you and have you in my circle now, So it really is inspiring to see you just step out there and just go for it anyway, which brings meeak to my next question is what in the world are you doing at Utopia Creative today? I couldn't quite keep drag of all the things that were happening in that space or frankly all of your amazing interests.

7:59 You are deaf fully of renaissance man, But what are you doing at Utopia Creative? So if you don't be a creative as a space, I mean right now actually, so right now I'm technically I'm taking part in this interview, But it's a space where people come to work on whatever projects they have. It's kind of like I would say, we work for creatives. It's more than we work and more social, but it's a little bit more productive, i'd say, than just going to a coffee house, you know, Like we do talk to each other at the end. We have a little breakout groups where we kind of talk about what each project everyone's working on, and we kind of lend ourselves support. We have feedback groups. So it's kind of like a mishmash of all like the workspaces and writing feedback groups that you have here in LA and that was pretty much the goal was to make it a little bit less pretentious, warmer, and more.

8:48 Social, gorgeous. Love it. That helped a lot, because that's not quite what I understood. So great, Okay, now let's get into the nitty gritty here. I want to help our listeners and viewers learn as much as they can about what you put forth in your book. I thought it was incredibly useful. You're really trying to help us be able to type ourselves but also other people in our lives. So the first thing that I want to get to is you very much distinguish method versus theory in your work. So if you can kind of explicate that event and to situate what you mean by your focus on method versus theory. Right, I mean, I think when you think of theory, we think of, oh, these are these ideas and they're always going to work a certain way. But really my thing is like, let's take advantage of all the experience that every single person has in their collective consciousness.

9:33 Right. We all meet probably hundreds of thousands of people throughout our lives, right, maybe small for bits of time, maybe for long amounts of time, but we don't necessarily utilize all that experience. So and my method focuses on taking all of the people that we know and all the things that we've seen and observed, and like giving it some kind of intellectual weight. Right, let's say, oh, this person did this, and this is probably the reason why, right versus like these theories that people have that are quite objective and may or may not necessarily fit like versus extraversion and introversion. Right, I feel like that's one thing that's really pushed out there, and I feel like it's only relevant like maybe forty or fifty percent of the time because it's irrelevant for a specific subset of people.

10:16 When in fact, if you just ask someone like on a practical level, they see, well, I'm extroverted in this situation, but I'm introverted in this situation, right, And so my method focus is more on like focusing on values because I feel our values definitely are the thing that dictate our behavior and our actions. Totally aligned. I appreciate that, and you're also also talk about it personally. Tapping is not a scientis it's more of a craft. And I really also appreciate that too, and so you know, we can be miscast in our typing and people can mistype us, and that's important. The other thing that I want to make sure we situate I know that you're aligned, is that we're not trying to put people into boxes per se, but we're trying to understand ourselves and our and each other. And I really like that idea of reaching to understand someone. I think there's so much need in the world for that.

11:04 And I think your four packs that you created, Eric are just so accessible. And I know you have a reverence for and you draw from David Keirsey's works. I want to honor that. I'm also on a researcher. I'm a social scientist, so I always want to honor those who came before me in the shoulders that I stood upon. So I want to recognize your reverence for him, and let's get into these four packs. So, ladies and gentlemen, as you listen to Eric talk about these four packs, just immediately start thinking about who might you know that sort of sort of sounds like this person. I just think you make it accessible. So four packs the gatherers, the hunters, the Shamans, and the smiths, shamans and the smiths. Who are they? What are they value? Right? So if you imagine their percentages in our population, they might fit like their percentages in a old medieval village. Right, you're gonna have a lot more gathers. So they make about half the population, and they're the ones you value safety and securities. So when you think about how our society is run, it's pretty much run in that manner, right.

11:58 That's why we have laws and order and rules and structure. It's they're there to make this safe, or at least feel safe, and to secure our place in a kind of dangerous world. Right. And so that's half the population. I'd say about a third of the population are the hunters. And just like hunters, they seek out things, right, Hunters value excitement, this sooral excitement. They're the people who are like, I want to go on a roller coaster because I think it throws me around, and in throwing me around, it kind of makes me feel like I'm going to die. I know I'm not going to die, but there's a slow, small, tiny percent chance that I might, and that cites me to no end, Which is funny because you'd imagine someone who values safeing and security would be totally opposite of that, right, the'd be like, why would I want to feel like I'm going to die, Like I want to feel like I'm not going to die ever? Right, And so already you see, like one makes fifty percent, the other makes a third of the population. They're going to clash quite a bit, right, And I think that's the clash that we often associate in pop culture. You know, when you think of the odd couple, you think of Burt and Ernie, you know, you think of that like really spontaneous, fun loving, risk taking, you know, rogue, and then you think of the steady, secure, responsible, I don't know, like gatherer type, right, And those are the two major packs. And then the Shamans, of course, they seek self knowledge. That's their number one value.

13:16 So I'm sure listeners this show and yourself, right, you yourself said you're a shaman. I think we talked about that off the air, and that's kind of they want to know and learn more about themselves and also teach that to other people, and they really emphasize that. Like, so obviously counselors and psychologists would often fit into this mold. And then the Smiths they seek information, so they would be to the type. All they want is to learn about things. Maybe they're useful, maybe the things they're learning are not useful, but they just like pulling together information because they just find that exciting. And those are basically the four packs in a nutshell. Thank you, Eric, and I have to say, I think Ben, and now I know especially why did I take you forty six pages of notes from your book. I do tend to take usually five to twenty eight from books.

14:02 Yours was forty six. And yes, you're right, guilty as charged. I am very very interested in, you know, self identity, self understanding, helping those notes same. So it helps me to see that if hunters and gatherers are eighty five percent of the population, and that means that shaman's and smith's combineder fifteen. I have always felt weird and like, you know, a little bit like I don't you know, I get all of you, but I'm sort of standing on the outside. I like all of you, most of you kind of, but I'm totally standing on the outside. And it just really helped me so much, Eric, to really situate why that was so So I want to personally thank you for how much I got out of your book just for me. Oh that's nice, so nice for you to say that in your welcome. I mean that's why I wrote it, I really and I experienced that same thing, and I realized that it's such like a it's such a tough thing, especially when you're younger, to feel like weird and left out, and Shamans tend to always feel that way. I always say, Shawman's don't have a mid life crisis, their whole life is a midlife crisis. Right, it's just.

15:00 Definitely yeah, no question. Yeah. And but then in that regard, like it's kind of nice, right because once we reached middle of a certain age, we're not like reflecting, oh my gosh, the things that I've been doing my whole life, was it worth it? Like I don't know, like I spent my whole life not even thinking about that. Where maybe another pack, like maybe a gatherer who kind of took the lining approach because it was more certain faith, but never thought about whether it really matched them and whether they really enjoyed it. They go in like they become like forty or forty five and they're like, oh my god, like I think I've lived a life that I don't want anymore. So yeah, there's somebody else's life, Thank you very much. Yeah, I want to dive into which on take a guest as to which pack you're in. But before we do that, let's take our first break.

15:42 Eric. I'm your host, Doctor Release Cortest. We were on Eric E, the creator of the Utopia Project website and Utopia sixteen assessment. We've been talking a bit about where his fascination with personality came from, how he early developed his capacity and competency for it. We got into the four packs of personnel. After the break, we're going to dive into the unique organizational and personal skills of each of those pacts. We'll be right back. Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired leadership and meaning imfused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite a lease to speak to your organization, please visit her at Elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to a lease Alis at Eleascortes dot com. Now back to working on Purpose. Thanks for staying with us, and welcome

17:15 back to working on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Release Cortes, as I too, am dedicated to help them create a world where people realize their potential at work, are led by inspirational leaders that help them find and contribute their greatness. And we do business at Betters the World. I keep researching and writing my own books, so my last one came out in March of twenty twenty three. It's called a Great Revitalization. How activating meeting and purpose can radically enliven your business. And I wanted to help leaders and business owners understand the needs of today's workforce. What do they want and need to give you their best and stick around? And then I provide a twenty two best packets to help you to create that for them. You can learn more about my books at my websites at leastcoretest dot com or find them on Amazon if you are just now joining us. My guest is Eric Gee.

17:57 He's the author of the Power of Personality Unlawfice secret is to understand everyone in your life, including yourself. So I as I was going through this, of course, I kept asking myself which pack and which type is Eric? And I think you are probably in the shaman type because you are like me because you care about self identity and self understanding. But you could be a smith because you've also invented several things. Where are you which time? I mean, I'm always like, go with your first instinct, right, because you're taking, like, you know, different parts of your intuitions. Yeah, I'm a shaman, you know. Obviously the book is about self knowledge and helping people reach self knowledge. And that was kind of a thing I felt. I felt weird, you know, and try to kind of fit in a little bit as a kid. And you know that ever works out very well, right, And that's something I feel like shamans can really relate to. And we all feel like aliens at a certain point until we learn about these kinds of things. And yeah, I'm a shaman, so you know. And then obviously there are four animals within the shaman, and I do believe I think we're different animal types or personality types within that pack. But yeah, you were right, your for instance, think was right.

19:02 So just to give a little bit of an inkling to that listeners and viewers. So what Eric has done is he's created the animal types. Each of the four packs have four different animal types that really distinguish the kind of paths and what they care about, what they're focused on. It's brilliant that one page that you capture the whole set of the sixteen types. Seric is. It's brilliant work, it really is. And I think I am the humpback whale? Was that that's one of them? Right? Right? Right? Right? Because I'm I'm a shaman. So the humpback whale is not a not a smith? Right? No? No, no, that's not a smith. Yeah, okay, whales, I think. That's I'm not a baboon. I don't think I'm a baboon, right. Okay, yeah, I'm a baboon. Actually, so when you thought you might be a humpback whale? Yeah, And there's just a question I always ask. It's a really random one.

19:48 If someone doesn't know whether they're one of the bab boon and the hump back whale. I was going to ask, like, how many times have you gone into a fist fight or started a fight? And that's generally baboons are a little bit more aggressive, so they might have started clentable amount of fights arguments. Run that I can think of. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, humpback whales are definitely going to take it more and more and more and then they'll just explode. Then then at certain point that they're going to hold it in and then someone's going to do something and finally bam and they just explode. I think I read write a book like a supernova, you know, and that's like one of the lass Okay, and. You definitely know that I've read the book and understand you definitely exhibit more of the colorfulness of the baboon for sure, and especially the way you wrote your personality book Eric off the charts. Okay, So let's do this for our listeners of viewers. Let's help them better understand the foundation and organizational skills of each of the four packs, starting with the gatherers. So just you can kind of walk through a little bit about you know, their specific I think you list three foundational skills and four organizational skills.

20:51 But what do they tend to be known for. I think if I had to just whittle down to one single thing in terms of the workforce that they're great at, it's logistics. You know, they're fantastic, not just fantastic like they're they're perfect logistics, like they're great at knowing the supply count. I know, sometimes people like, oh, that sounds so boring, but it's not like there's a reason why we need toilet paper. They are always going to have enough toilet paper in the household. I guarantee you that, you know, And that's their strength is keeping things together. One of the examples I believe I use in the book is George Washington, right, he would not have you know, oftentimes people think of great generals as being great strategists. Washington himself was not particularly a great strategist. He was a great logistics and funny enough, that's how we won the Revolutionary War. It wasn't his strategy that helped us win battles. He lost more battles than he won.

21:38 It was just that he outsurvived the British because he was able to keep more of his men alive during the winter here and they just finally gave up, And that would be a great example of the gatherer's strength. Right, it's pure logistics and supply keeping things in order. Okay, okay. You all had also mentioned social intelligence and being practical, and I can think of several to gatherers that I think, I know that I think are incredibly practical, very just good at making sense of things and making things work right. And I will say the difference is oftentimes people associate practical with logical, and that's the big difference. Gatherers are not necessarily logical. They can be, but when push comes to shove, they will be more practical than logical, meaning they will do what works and what has worked in the past because what worked in the past is more than likely going to work in the present and also going to work in the future. That's always their mindset, like why change traditional change what's working for some theory that we don't necessarily know even if it makes like logical sense, it doesn't necessarily I haven't seen in the real world, so why should I believe it. That's kind of the mindset they often have, where versus a smith say that helps.

22:51 That helps. Now do you want to say anything about some of their organizational skills or do you want to go on to the next pack. I don't know how wanky you wanted me to get, you know, their organizational skills like they tend to you know, it depends on within each animal, so like there, I don't know, do you want me to mention the four animals to get brilliant? Sure? Great? Yeah, so we have the stags, we have the beavers, we have the gosh, I remember the elephants and the bears, and their organizational skills are a little different based on which animals. So the stag might be more supervisory, Like they're always the person who follows chain of command, so they're really like, okay, this is what I do. I'm the school principal, I'm the CEO. I'm in charge. You follow me. Don't park in my parking space. You know, my mom was a school principal and she was a stag, so I definitely know that answer that question. Once. I'm like, if would you get mad if someone parking your parking spot?

23:41 And she's like, well no, because no one would. And I'm like, okay, come on, like that is exactly what a stag would say. You know, no one's going in my authority, right we have. The beavers are more they're more about like supply, like I said, rules focused and such like that, Like each one has their own individual strengths even within the overall skill set of logistics. I'd say, okay, all right. So listeners and viewer is one of the things that Eric sent too, that will I really want to encourage you to pick up the book for is. He's also even included some good fit positions and careers for each of the personality types or his his types, which I think is really useful. I found myself right in there.

24:21 By the way, Eric, you totally nailed it. Well, let's talk about the hunter next, and again it also me. I know I have two of my friends that I know are spot on hunters, now that you've helped me elucidate that. So what would be their foundation their foundational skills? So there, I always say, their foundational skill is tactics, meaning like the ability to adjust whatever situation is best in this moment. And the great thing too, like depending on the sector you're in, there's a lot of different roles within each sector that could work for different like personalities, right, like it's not like, oh, are you in You're in tech, Okay, you're going to be this type. It's like no, like in tech. Even in tech, like I found, there's something called I believe they're called the knock, and those are the people who work kind of like twenty four to seven.

25:05 So they have some have the graveyard shift, and it's like when a website gets shut down, like Hulu. When Hulu, like when there's a glitch, obviously you need someone to fix that glitch right away because you never know hands on deck, Yeah, exactly, you don't want that glitch. And so that's called the knock. And they're like kind of like the SWAT team members in the software arena, and those would be hunters, right. Hunters have to just go into a situation without necessarily knowing what the situation is and then just be confident enough to adjust. Obviously, firefighters would be probably the greatest example of a hunter. They go into situations where their lives are in danger and they don't know what's coming at them and they just have to be confident that they're going to be able to do the best thing in that moment, and that's kind of their job strength.

25:48 Okay, And then do you want to say that the four animals for the hunters, and then one's at peacock the peacocks. So there's a peacocks, butterflies, foxes, and sharks, and I think think we can distinguish the foxes and sharks over here and the peacocks and the butterflies over here, and that peacocks and butterflies are a lot more about consuming and creating works of art and works of beauty. Now that can be very like subjective, right. A work of beauty could be something like a great meal, you know, or a great performance, or maybe they could be an interior designer like things where they are viscerally affected by their surroundings. They're very sensitive, where the foxes and the sharks are a lot more like aggressive in their risk taking.

26:29 They're adrenaline junkies. They're going to be a lot more based on taking risks, which is why when they're younger, they can't have teachers telling them that it's bad to take risks. They have to have teachers telling them, take your risks, just get it. You do so so exciting. I know, I can't totally know two of my friends that are hunters and they're married. I married them and they're totally hunters. He's definitely a shark and she's a peacock. It's like, amazing, what. Do they do? Okay, Well, I was just wondering what they did for a living and if it fit, Like, you know, I'm always curious. Well, they're both she's he's He's been a very strong entrepreneur like Blaze Trails, like just you know, you know, you know, hack down the forest to create something out of nothing and like unstoppable man. And she has this incredible aesthetic sense to her and it's created beautiful artwork and websites and just like it's just funny stuff.

27:25 Yeah, I always I always describe hunters in the workforce, and I take I'm saying this as a compliment, but hunters are hustlers. They're the hustler, the holy hustlers. Yeah, they don't go the safe route. They just have confidence and like, what are we gonna do? I'll just make something up with myself, which is why oftentimes in school they don't necessarily do as well because school is just really not for them, at least traditional school. They're just like, I don't care about this stuff book. Just get me out there and I'll figure it out, you know, I'll figure I'll follow my bait and pick myself back up and learn from that. So yeah, yeah, I love this. This is so good. So listeners and viewers think about this. If you're starting to recognize that sounds like me, you know, is this is just stuff really helps. So now we talk about the third pact. That's to Shamans, that's us. So our foundational skill.

28:07 Is it is well empathy and like obviously diplomacy, understanding like what someone is feeling, obviously because we're so connected with our own feelings, and basically understanding how some the best way someone can grow, the best way that we can grow, and not only that, but how we can grow together? Right, how can we work? How can teams mesh? They're also about morale. I mean you're going to find them in HR quite a bit. HR is a big thing for Shamans because they're all about helping people become the best version of themselves and obviously within a company, how can this person become the best version themselves because that best version will help the company, and how will they fit into the company the best in the best possible way, right, Like, you wouldn't want like a shaman being in charge of, like I don't know, supply and logistics.

28:55 That would be the worst situation. The wait what for everybody? Yeah, exactly, So it's really you don't have them being your taxes either, you know, like I don't do my own taxes. I would be terrible of it. I would be audited like that, you know. So that's our skill set tends to be working with people for the most part. Okay, and again, let's let's talk about the four animal types there. Yes, so they're the dolphins and the pandas, and I usually separate them the dolphins of the pandas over here, the baboons and the humpback whales. You and me we're over on this side, and I usually just describe them as are the big difference being humpback whales and dolt humps are. Humpback whales and baboons are more about principle and ethics, and the dolphins and the pandas are more about people. And obviously, as shamans, we're going to like both of those things. But when push comes to shove, I think dolphins and pandas tend to be more communal.

29:47 They're all about building community and working with individuals for the greater good of the whole. And whereas like baboons and humpback whales are more about like, what are my ideas, what are the principles that we can add advocate for? How can we get them out there? How can we voice them without necessarily organizing communities of people? Yeah, why am I down here McCallan speaking in a conference because I want to spread those ideals. I am out to create destination workplaces. I want a world eric where people come alive at work, not where they are dead and by work. That is what I'm out to champion. So I'm guilty as charge and I'm happy to carry that the sword. And that's super inspiration, right, It's inspirational and aspirational, right, And Shamans We're all like that where it's like we want to inspire people, but we also have we want to inspire them to hire goals versus like make as much money as you can. It's like money is great, but like you don't want to make money doing something you hate because then you basically waste your life and that ain't coming back, right, Like it's about how can we reach the best possible version ourselves because we're probably it's probably going to make us the happiest.

30:50 I completely agree, and I've been willing to take the road less travel to realize that and to live that, and I'm grateful for that. Okay, So now let's talk about the smith Smith's the skills of the Smiths. So what's their foundational skill? So their foundational skill is strategy, and I always say like they're found like basically they create things, tools or systems that will help us in the future, maybe at the cost of the present. Right, So then the most comments that maybe take a few hits, because that's essentially what strategy is. Right. Strategy is really thinking about future goals or future gain for possible short term loss, Which is funny because that's the exact opposite of tactics, even though we often like associate those two things as being the same, but they are the mirror opposite of the hunters. Hunters are all about the now, and they're like, we'll screw later because we don't even know what later when later comes, what's going to happen. So let's just do it works now, Where smiths are always about planning ahead and thinking, Okay, what's going to happen in the future, what can we do now to set us up best for the future, even if it hurts us now. And I think in the book I mentioned the marshmallow test, right, they are key.

31:53 They are the winners of the marshmallow test because they will wait, they will wait for that big result at the end, versus what's like the I guess, say, the present day game. Yeah, okay, I love that so well explained. And I know several Smith's. I've fallen in love with at least one Smith that I know of, and those four animals. Are that's generally a good match Smith. Yeah, I know, I saw that. In your book. I read that. I don't think it's gotten past me. And that's what That's what a lot of people want to know this stuff, right, who should have hooked up with? Who should I really like? You know, I don't have a believer in I don't believe in like soulmates per se. But you know, theoretically certain types are going to gel. The way that they gel together is more conducive generally in the long run. But yeah, so we have Sorry, we had the killer whales and the spiders, and they're on this side, and then we have the chimpanzees and owls on this side. And since they both since all smiths seek information, the way I divide the two is by how they go about seeing that information and what do they want it for. So chimpanzees and owls just think information is cool. So they're like, they of going Wikipedia and they'll just read every single Wikipedia page and then link link link link, and it could be about professional wrestlers in the nineteen eighties and they'll just be like, Okay, Hulkgan, you know, Ultimate Warrior, you know. Whereas the killer whales and the spiders, they're more about information that's useful, right, So they are probably not going to get on that, you know, go down that rabbit hole of professional wrestling in the eighties. But what they're going to do is

33:24 they're going to look for information that they can use, which means they tend to be better students, especially in college. They tend to be your best students. But once again, since they're all about strategy, they're all about creating structures in which society can thrive. So the CEO type the killer whales are often called the CEO type because a lot of CEOs are killer whales. Even though they make up about two percent of the population, they probably make up about thirty percent of CEOs, which is a pretty large part. So well explained. I just so appreciate this. Now I recognize I think I've been saying your name wrong. How do we say your name correctly? Oh? Yeah, it's like g like it's like a gangster in the early nineties.

34:05 Eric g G. Yeah, nothing like that. We can make that switch. Yeah, okay, let's take our last break. I'm your host, doctor Early Cortez. We do on hear with Eric G. G G. Yeah, er G. He's the creator of the Utopia Project website and the Utopia sixteen assessment. We've been talking now more in depth about the four packs. What is it that they really value, what are their skills, what distinguishes them. After the break, we're going to talk a little bit more about how to recognize these four packs and why do so. It actually helps relationships and results. We'll be right back.

34:53 Doctor Elise Cortez is a management consultant specializing in meaning and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, he helps companies visioneer for a greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite a lease to speak to your organization, please visit her at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to a lease a LISEE at elisecortes dot com. Now back to working on Purpose. Interesting with listen. Welcome back to working on Purpose. I am your host, doctor Release Cortes.

35:49 As I mentioned in the last break, my latest book came out in Marshall twenty thirty three. It's called The Great Vitalization. How activating meaning and a purpose can retically enlighten your business. And what I did for you is I created a three page assessment you can download off my site to help you ascertain the extent to which your current culture meets the discerning needs of today's workforce. You can find it at gustodeshnow dot com. If you are just tuning in my guess is Eric Ee. He's the author of the Power of Personality, Unlock the secrets to understand everyone in life, including yourself. So for this next last part here, I just wanted to spend this time Eric just talking about, you know, how can we recognize these four packs with people that we're working with and maybe it's a friend, a prospective person you might want to date, and help us really understand why doing so helps the relationship and what you're trying to achieve in life.

36:38 Right, you know, the story I've been telling quite a bit in terms of why it's so important. As you know, I was shucking oysters with my cousin's kid this New Year's and I was asking. He had just graduated from pharmacy school, and so I was like, WHOA, Like, so, what do you want to do now? You know? And I already know what. He's a hunter. He's a shark. Sharks like to use tools. That's probably something I forgot to mention, Like hunters really are good with tools, and for sharks, they're very good with actual literal tools like a hammer and nail, you know. And so we're shocking oysters because and he was teaching him and he picked up really quickly, and so anyway, I did digress it. So I said, what do you want to do now? And he's like, I don't know. As long as I don't have to be in the same place all day long. I'm like, yeah, right, you got went to pharmacy school, a pharmacist stay in the same place. And so I was like, well, you know, maybe you could do pharmaceutical sales, because that would involve traveling, you know, going to different places, meeting different people. You'd have to hustle, you'd have to like you're not going to have like some steady kind of thing, like it's going to be based on how well you do. But hunters are fine with hustling. They don't mind them. In fact, it's kind of fun for them.

37:39 It's exciting. And I gave him that suggestion, and I think he was good to take it. Like he at first he said, He's like, well, I don't want to waste all the time that I spent in pharmacy school learning this stuff. And I was like, well, yeah, but she only got one late life, so do you really want to waste that? You know, you're not getting that back. He said, oh, yeah, you have a good point. There. So I think if he had known that going in, and I've I had a chance to talk to him, now, I knew that he was a shark before he started pharmacy school. But you know, it's none of my business. I didn't say anything. His mom is a pharmacist, his dad's a doctor. They're both gatherers, so they're kind of their mindset, of course, is like that gathering mindset of like, no, we got to do it safe and secure. What's a safe job? Pharmacist does a safe job? Go to pharmacy school, do that path. But I don't think that's like the path that's going to make him happy or to the amount of success that you probably want. I think he'd do really well in pharmaceutical sales because that's kind of like the C suite path, right, And I could see him doing that. So that's a long story of saying that's why it's so important. I feel like we take these paths and we're just like we diagnose something, We're like, okay, this is what I am. I'm just going to do this, But what of the diagnosis is wrong? You know? I think once we figure out what that is and find the right path at least, it'll give us confidence as we move forward.

38:46 Yeah, that's a brilliant story, and Eric, I really appreciate that. I mean, I'm a twenty one year old daughter. She's graduated dealing with a degree in psychology, which I think was a good feel for her to study, and you know, she's trying to find her way in and a lot of women and people along the way have encouraged her to go be a start urgent, you know, go be a dentist and go all these things. And I'm like, hang on a second. You're the one that's got to do this job and get up every day and just log through it. You know, let's get it right. So how you know, I can look back in my earlier years, you know, when I did a lot of outside sales, and I love the relational component to it, and I love this service and I love the I didn't ever sell anything that was you know, tangible. It was always intangible stuff. I needed that sort of ideological, conceptual aspect of it. But what I'm wondering for our listeners and viewers, we're probably going to think about this themselves. Do you, from your research and your experience to people's personalities change or evolve over time or is it pretty much the same and differently maybe differently expressed.

39:43 I definitely, I definitely agree with it evolving, right, I mean, essentially it changes. But I always like, I mean, this is something I say in the book as well, like, I don't think people can change, at least not for the good. I think if you're changing who you are, then that's probably you've either become you've become less emotional than a healthy But I think we can grow, and we can grow into better versions of ourselves, or we can grow into worse versions of ourselves. Right, Like puppies don't grow into cats, they grow into dogs. Right, So if you start off a certain way, you're not going to change into a different animal. But what you could do is grow into an older, more mature, or evolved version of the one that you start off being. That's kind of what I believe, that's the danger is of we believe in changing them. Essentially. What that means is a lot of types, especially the more minority types where they only make up two percent of the population, they're in danger of changing to be something they're not because either their parents or like people who have a great influence on them, are telling them what they're doing is wrong and they need to change, and that's what I'm most afraid of by saying that.

40:43 So I really appreciate that, and that makes so much sense when you just look at the sheer volume that is, you know, against people that are in a two percent, you know, sort of category. I can rick this pretty early in my life, some of my shame and shuman tendencies, I can. I can recognize that. And I would say to your point about evolving, I would say that especially when I really chose to step on the path of truth, I was choosing truth to myself and it did take me into a much deeper self employed path because really I don't want to work for somebody else's ideas. That's why I work for myself. So I can recognize that, and that really also gave me a lot of affirmation and appreciation that I had followed that path. So I appreciate that that, you know, the evolving piece of the of the personalities. And then to say, just help some of the other types in recognizing you've done such a great job of helping to distinguish gatherers, hunter's, shaman's Smith's.

41:41 Can you kind of think about your other stories that would help somebody recognize, Oh, yeah, I'm definitely a Smith. Well, Smith's just like Seman Smith's have that kind of like gosh, I'm like kind of weird, aren't I. However, there reacting is different than ours, and which with good and bad results, right, just like everything with personality, r I take the good with the bad bad with a good Smith's will be like, Wow, I'm different than these people and they're idiots, so why would I want to be like that? Be myself? Right? And of course let's say kind of cool. Right. I was like, Wow, that's really strong. That's like a very cool kind of take. However, if you have that attitude with the most of people's, then you're going to be like the recluse, right, or you're gonna be like the person who might be thought of as a jerk. Right, Like I think of like I use a lot of pop culture. Obviously, he read the book like I think of like the show House, right, where he's a Smith, he's more specifically a chimpanzee, and nobody likes him, right, because he's kind of arrogant and he's always like now, these guys are idiots. I'm gonna do my thing and I don't need to be like anyone else. But sometimes it's to his detriment right where he doesn't fully connect with people. He fully doesn't he doesn't fully understand what people are. And I think that would be a good indicator if someone knows that they're a smith, is that where they feel different but in an almost antagonistic way.

42:54 And I mean that's a small percentage of population. But if you're reading Wikipedia quite a bit, and if you're a big collector of things, oftentimes you're a smith. You know you have like they have like specific interests that they're very proud of that are not necessarily the most popular interest Like I have a friend who's an al, and a good example of an al is like Einstein. The problem is when you tell people, oh, Einstein was a smith, they're like, oh, what you're saying is smith's are geniuses, And I'm like, no, Einstein was a genius. You happen to be a smith, but there are other smiths who just like information. And a friend of mine is like, hey, I'm the same type as out Einstein, but that doesn't mean like I'm a genius. That just means that I know a lot about fantasy football and I know a lot about massage because those are the two things that I'm really interested in, right, And I think that's a good way to figure out if you're a Smith. If you just love that information, like finding it and you're not ashamed about doing it, that would be Yeah, that's the way to find out.

43:46 Well. And then again, I just I think your your guidance in your book about where that might show up as a career is just so incredibly useful. So I'm not going to well go into a lot of that. Just ladies and gentlemen pick up the book. It's amazing. Think about how you can use this for yourself, loved ones in your life, people on your team. So you know, if you're a Smith, there's lots of ways you can use this personality. And what I really want to situate here for our listeners and viewers is that we are talking about honoring our personalities, honoring who we are, and the opportunity is to figure out where do we make that work in the world. How do we make that work in the world, Not how do we change ourselves, but how do we where do we bring that so that we can really bring it strong and honor who we are through. It, right, And it's about I think the best thing is identifying like either whether it's in fiction or real life, like models of success, right models like oh, this person is like actually like me, this person has his personality.

44:37 That means I don't have to change because this person didn't have to change. Like someone who thinks they're a jerk might look at Steve Jobs and go, hey, you know what he use thought of as a jerk as well. You know, but he made the iPhone, you know, like, so like they can use that as like okay, like it worked for him, you know, worked for her. Let mean like it's okay to be myself. I just need to work on that and be a better version of myself. M hm. So let's talk a little bit more about gatherers. You know, how might they recognize themselves? You know, I know that you say their number one value is security, So I would certainly, you know, imagine that people who like, you know, the steady work, the steady paycheck, you know, might fall into that into that category. I have been self employed for mostly most of twenty years, and so I haven't recognized that steady paycheck. It would be really nice once in a while, but that that is so isn't what governs me. So saying a little bit more for our gatherers, how they might recognize themselves.

45:32 Yeah, you know, gatherers. Actually, they're the one type when I work with them as my clients and students that I never really have to worry about giving them confidence in themselves, just because if you're gatherer, you basically have always felt like the world was made for you. And but not like in like in some entitled way. It's more just like, okay, like the things that I like are the things that we should like because it's been structured in a way that just fits right. It's like just putting on a shoe and you're just like, wow, this fits perfectly. So in a weird way, gatherers don't know might not know that they're gatherers unless they have that feeling of they've never had the feeling of not belonging, you know, Like it's a weird kind of like, oh I don't they don't know how other people don't feel that way. So I'm always starting to teach my gatherer students that no learn about the personalitype so you can understand like that other people are different and you should be able to adjust to those differences versus like being confident in what you're doing, because most of the time gathers are pretty confident in how they go about the world. Eric, that is so.

46:36 Gold to just think about it from the mate point. You know, it's just like the water to swim in, and that water is the large pond that most people you know swim in as well, so they are among the good company and you know, really nice friends, and you know, this just makes sense, and so that that really helps and for you know, those of us who are Shamans and smiths, who make it more of fifteen percent of the population combined, it helps us better understand, you know why we have often stood on the edge of that pond, wondering should we put a foot in there? Or maybe should we leave it right where it is right? So just to think your work is brilliant. We have just really a couple of minutes left here, and I want to give you the chance to kind of close the show as you like, Eric, knowing that people listen to the show from around the world and they really care about becoming a better version of themselves, becoming a better leader. They want to create organizations where people can realize their potential and they do better through what they're doing through through their work and their organization. What would you like to leave them with?

47:32 You know, I like to leave them with the fact I like that you mentioned before. It's not about categorizing, it's not about putting people into boxes. I think the method is like something that we can constantly live with, right, Like I always think of like this story Franny and Zoe from J. D. Salinger, where the main character is just like repeating this Jesus prayer over and over again because she thinks repeating it over and over again is going to make her a hole year person. But the epiphany she gets to the end is no, Like, it's not about saying it, it's about living it within your actions in life, right And I think that's the same thing with this. It's not about like understand it's not just about understanding the differences in people and what make us different. It's about living that way where we're constantly everything that we see from our loved ones or just the people around us. We're constantly trying to understand what it really means. We're trying to get a deeper perspective of who they are because I think that will lead to just a better society and that's just a happier life.

48:23 And I think so much of what we think of what people are is based on such surface values. But if we were just to like make that how we live our lives, just figuring out what all these things genuinely mean. That's my aspiration is that if we were to do that, I. Really appreciate that, Eric and I would also, you know, put forth that my my contribution to that is. And in addition, I want everyone to appreciate and respect other people for who they are and for their difference. I think the WORL will be a lot better place if we could drop some, you know, a lot of the condition judgment kind of look for a curiosity, appreciation, and respect. People are a lot quite two cents, Yeah, right.

49:05 Go ahead. People are a lot different. Oh, I would say, we're a lot different. I think that's the thing we will. That's why I focus so much on values. I think oftentimes we associate when someone says, oh, people are different, So yeah, they're different because they're like a little bit more spontaneous, I'm more organized. It's like that might be true, but there are deeper differences. And I think as long as we accept that values are different, that's when real change matters, because I think those are things that can often be a hang up, right when we're like, oh no, we both value family, we both and there's like, well that person might not value family as much as you value family, right, Like when's the last Einstein's family? Right? He had a daughter, but no one's talking because he spent most of his time right doing research. Right, So yeah.

49:45 Well, Eric, I am. I'm definitely better by having encountered you, and I really really am a fan of your work. I am happy to share it and celebrated. Listeners and viewers, you are going to want to learn more about Eric his his work with Utopia Project as well as his work on the personality the Utopia sixteen. So one place you can start to look for him is his website, which is Utopia project dot com. Let me spell that for you, so it's you you Topia to Opia project dot com Utopia project dot com. Definitely go check him out connect with him on LinkedIn. Last week if you missed the live show. You can catch it via recorded podcast. We were on air with doctor Anny Malinsky talking about the importance of and how to be effective at cross culture relationships in communication, it must have skill in today's global marketplace. Next week, we'll be on air with Colin O'Neill talking about his new book, Take Control By Giving Up Control, the value centered FastTrack for organizational Growth. See you then and for another inspiring and educational conversation on working on purpose and remember, work is one of the best adventures and means of realizing our potential and making the impact we crave. So let's work on Purpose.

50:55 We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to tune into Working on Purpose featuring your health host doctor Elise Cortes each week on W four CY. Together we'll create a world where business operates conscientiously, Leadership inspires and passion performance, and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning and purpose they Crave'll see you there. Let's work on Purpose.