Oct. 15, 2024

Cultural Keys to Success: Navigating International Business Relationships with Finesse

Cultural Keys to Success: Navigating International Business Relationships with Finesse

Step into the dynamic world of global business as we explore the essential skills needed to excel across cultures. In this episode, we delve into the secrets to thriving in today's interconnected marketplace, where cultural intelligence reigns...

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Step into the dynamic world of global business as we explore the essential skills needed to excel across cultures. In this episode, we delve into the secrets to thriving in today's interconnected marketplace, where cultural intelligence reigns supreme. From decoding behavioral nuances to mastering effective communication strategies, join us as we uncover the art of building fruitful relationships and driving impactful collaborations across borders.

Working on Purpose is broadcast live Tuesdays at 6PM ET and Music on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Working on Purpose is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).

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WEBVTT

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The topics and opinions express in the following show are

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solely those of the hosts and their guests and not

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those of W FOURCY Radio. It's employees are affiliates. We

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make no recommendations or endorsements radio show, programs, services, or

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explicit or implied shall be extended to W FOURCY Radio

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be directed to those show hosts. Thank you for choosing

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W FOURCY Radio.

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What's Working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the

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answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose

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at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their

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lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization

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that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their

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highest potential. Business can be such a force for good

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in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide

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guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we

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all want Working on Purpose. Now, here's your host, Doctor

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Elise Cortez.

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Welcome back to the Working on Purpose program. Great to

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have you back. This show has been brought to you

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with passion and Pride since February of twenty fifteen. Already

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I'm your host, doctor Elis Cortes. If we've not met

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yet before, you don't know me. I'm an organizational psychologist

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and loco therapist, speaker and author. My team and I

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at Gusto Now help companies to enliven and fortify their

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operations at increase profitability by articulating their purpose and building

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inspirational leaders and cultures activated by meaning and purpose. Our

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mission is to help the companies we serve create a

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destination workplace where people flock to join, are intrinsically motivated

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to perform with their best, can grow into their fuller potential,

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and are committed to stay and dynamically deliver on the

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company's mission, which translates to higher profits. Of course, you

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can learn more about us and now we can work

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together at gustodashnow dot com and my personal site at

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Leiscortes dot com. Getting into today's program we have with

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us today, Doctor Andy Malinsky. He is a professor of

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organizational behavior and International Management at Brandy's International Business School.

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His work helps people develop the insights and courage necessary

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to act outside their personal and cultural comfort zones. When

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doing important but challenging tasks in work and life. He

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is the co author of Forging Bonds in a Global

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Workforce build rapport, camaraderie, and optimal performance no matter the

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time zone, which we'll be talking about today. He joins

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us today from Boston, Doctor Molinsky, Welcome to Working on Purpose.

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Thank you for having me. Happy to be here.

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Absolutely, let's celebrate this thing you brought into the world,

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this little, small, little piece of work that you you birthed.

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It's gorgeous. Congratulations. I know how what a feat that is.

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Thank you very much. It is a beautiful book. It's

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a little shiny, but it's a beautiful book. You can

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see the glare on there. It's been a it's been

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a long process. Anyone who's written a book knows that.

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And we're really proud to have it out there and

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hopefully it hopefully it helps people. That's why we wrote it.

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All right, Well, I think already indeed, you know, there's

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so much that to learn about this big, beautiful world

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that we live in, and I think to start this conversation,

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it does make sense for each of us just to

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share a little bit about our own experiences. I mean,

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I have an idea where this book came from because

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of how you started. I know that you've lived in

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Spain and worked in France. I lived in Spain and Brazil.

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Those experiences were phenomenal in opening each of us. So

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let's just start there. Andy, How is it that you

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were living in Spain first?

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So I actually studied abroad in Spain in college, Okay,

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and it was my very first experience being outside my

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cultural comfort zone. The funny story, well, I don't know

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how funny, but the story is that I actually was

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studying Russian in college, but it turned out that I

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didn't have enough Russian to go to Russia to study.

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That dates me. It was before the Wall came down.

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There were real strong constraints on being able to study

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broad and Russia. So I quickly pivoted. I started learning Spanish.

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I went to Spain and it was just it was

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just really or a remarkable experience for me. This is

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pre internet. These are in the days where you know,

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you didn't really know that much about another culture. You

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couldn't just sort of pop it up on your phone

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or Google image it or anything. And that discovery inspired

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me to ultimately go back to Europe and work in

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France after college, and that really just excited me about

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the idea and the challenges of building relationships and connecting

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across cultures. I then decided to study it. I did

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a PhD in organizational behavior in social psychology. I now

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teach it at business school and my Brandeis University in Boston, Massachusetts.

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And let's say, of my MBA students, I want to

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say about maybe twenty twenty five percent or American, even

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though we're in Boston. So I live in a little

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world of a little global world in my MBA classes.

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So I've continued that interest, you know, up until today.

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That's so wonderful, Andy, And what I'll share too, And

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I want to put this forth through one of the

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major lenses that I read in your book, and that's

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this idea of curiosity celebrating curiosity. So I found myself

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living in Madrid, Spain in nineteen ninety one when I

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was twenty six. I was there because my boyfriend go

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transferred and he said you should come with. I'm like,

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this is amazing. So I'm from a very small town

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in northeastern Oregon. It was very homodeously white, so that

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experience of living in Spain was fantastic. The first thing

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that I got was everybody was kissing openly in the street.

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I'm like, oh my gosh, this is what a loving place, right.

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So I always stoke and say that the Spaniards taught

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me about relationships. They really did. And then I got

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to go all over Western Europe and I'd learned so

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much about that. And then two years in rue de

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Gennio and Rio, what I learned is the importance of communication.

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You really can't communicate with somebody, at least at that

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time without touching them. That was a beautiful thing that

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the Brazilians taught me to communicate. So I've taken this

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all back with me. These are now part of me, Andy,

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this is who I am. I'm married to Costa Rican.

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That's how I got the named Cortez. Even though we're

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not married anymore, I'm keeping the name. It's mine, and

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I consider myself a Latina Cordida, So I consider myself

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someone who really, you know, embraces the Latino culture and languages.

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So it's it's really colored me. Wow.

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Interesting story. Yeah, Well, you know, there's so many people

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like us with their own story about how they've been,

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you know, inspired to live and work globally. And you know,

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today very as I tell the graduates of our school,

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very few if any of them are going to work

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in a non global company. So, I mean, it's twenty

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twenty four where we're you know, recording this, it's it's

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many many of us are are going global.

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Yes, And to your point, you know, writing a whole

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book about being able to do this, well, I for me,

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I think it's hard and harder to come into a

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place where you haven't traveled outside of the United States.

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Haven't you haven't come into contact with somebody whose second

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language or third language is English. You know, it's just everywhere.

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And so this idea of this increasingly global workplace it

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really and I think the pandemic also helped us really

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see just how small and interconnected the world really is

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as well.

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Absolutely. I mean you can sit on I'm sitting on

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a chair right now, but I could be in the

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other room in a couch and I can be connecting

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with people from all over the world. In fact, for

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the book, we interviewed I think over seventy five people,

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and many of those interviews were done you know from

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my couch, so you know, it's it's it really is.

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It's really remarkable, actually, I mean and for people who

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who are sort of digital natives, young young people younger

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than me, maybe it's not as remarkable. For someone of

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my age, it's pretty remarkable. Yes, you know, build these

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relationships just you know, a click.

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Indeed, and even on this program, Andy, I've had the

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privilege of hosting people from all over the world that

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have joined me from vast time zones, you know, on

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the other side of the world, and we come together

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and we we and now what they don't really realize

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that was now they're stuck with me because I I

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love my guests, so they don't They're not getting away

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from me just yet. But but let's do this if

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we can. One of the things that I many things

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I appreciate about your book, and I love the stories

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in your book as well, I think it would be

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helpful for us to paint a picture of what it

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looks like when when things are disastrous, when really somebody

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really messes up the whole cultural connection, especially when it

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relates to business. Give us an exact an idea what

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what that can just look like?

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Uh so, so many examples when someone messes it up.

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I mean, you you know, I think there there are

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a lot of we call them trip wires that people

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can fall into, you know, assuming that someone is characteristic

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of the culture that they come from, which is a

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big one, you know, of course, anyone coming from any country.

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There's there's you know, hundreds of thousands of people even

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hundreds of millions of people in the US from a

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given country. So it's kind of crazy to imagine that

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someone's going to be characteristic of your sort of stereotype

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of the country they come from. But that's what we

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often do, use these shortcuts for example. You know, of course,

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there are many examples of people making faux pause, you know,

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saying the wrong thing, and and those are doing the

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wrong thing, and those are the ones that really kind

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of dominate the you know, the stories that you hear

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in terms of you know, people saying or doing the

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wrong thing. I think though that I think that the reality,

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though is that if you can start to build a connection,

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even sort of the seeds of trust and the seeds

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of rapport and a connection, you know, saying and doing

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the wrong thing isn't isn't so bad. I mean, you've

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you've got some slack there. As long as you're starting

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to show that you're interested in the other person, that

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you care about them, about their culture, that you're you

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know that that that you're not perfect, but you're interested

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in learning, and you're curious, as we talked about before.

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And I think that really buffers you a lot. So

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that's what I would say.

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Hmm, I completely agree with that, being leaning in and

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saying I want to learn about you. I'm not I

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don't I don't know. I'm very ignorant about your culture

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and what's important to you. I want to learn from you,

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Please help me. And I've I've just found that that

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really you can you can get through an awful lot

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if you situate yourself like that.

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Yeah. Absolutely, I mean, and and you know, I think

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it's I think be be open to being curious, as

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we talked about before, and also be willing to be surprised.

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I remember, I remember I do tell a story in

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the book about I think it was a couple of

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summers ago. I was meeting a Singaporean CEO of a

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company in Boston. He happened to be traveling through Boston.

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We were talking about doing some work together. He wanted

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to bring me on for for some of his assignments,

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and I it was it was the middle of the summer,

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and and and and I expected this guy. It was

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this career, this Singapore and Chinese CEO, and we were

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meeting in in in this in this restaurant. I was

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sort of expecting him to be dressed up, and so

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I dressed up as well. And by the way, I'm

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a very very casual person, always bordering on the edge

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of like slightly and appropriately too casual. But so I

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dressed up for me, which means, you know, like I

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think I had like a nice shirt and pants and

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so on, and maybe even a jacket. I don't know.

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I walk up, I see him there. I also thought

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he'd be pretty formal. That was sort of my expectation.

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I walk up. He's wearing shorts, he's wearing sandals. He

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comes up to me and gives me a big bear hug.

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Not what I was expecting. But that's what I mean.

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That people aren't necessarily characteristic of the culture that you

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come from, so that they come from or your impression

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of that culture. So you know, be willing to be open,

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be willing to be surprised, treat people as they are

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as individuals.

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So one of the things I love doing on this program, Andy,

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is I like to be able to educate and inspire.

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So I want people to always be able to walk

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away from this program immediately putting to use what we

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talk about. So I want to now if we can't

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address the four critical errors that people tend to make

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when they're cultivating across cultural relationship, I think this really

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helps situate, you know, what to be aware of here,

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So let's talk about all four of those.

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Sure, happy to do that. So let's see. The first

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error would be fixating a national culture sort of alluded

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to that alluded to that before, the idea that you

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might have this image of someone from the culture that

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they come from, and that's certainly not the case. That

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would be an example of before. Another one is what

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I would call stereotyping instead of prototyping. So I find

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this one really interesting because what a stereotype is we

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all know the word, But what a stereotype is is

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assuming someone is characteristic of the impression or the image

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that we have of the group that they belong to.

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And so that's obviously it's obviously a heuristic, a mental shortcut,

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and it really gets you into trouble and it's unfair

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actually obviously too. But prototyping, what prototyping is is saying, Okay,

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there is variability across cultures, and this variability within a culture,

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you're trying to predict if Swedes or Italians are going

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to be more emotionally expressive, and you're going to meet

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with someone from Sweden, you're going to meet with someone

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from Italy. A prototype would be the guess, a hypothesis,

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an incoming guess that the person from Italy will probably

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be a little bit more emotionally expressive. You don't know

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by the way that person might not be at all,

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but it's sort of an incoming hypothesis, a guess, a

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prototype you might have with the culture, but you are

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very willing to be proved wrong. And so that's that's

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the stance that I think would be a correction to

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that error. Third error, assuming that other people are like you,

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I think that's that's a big error. I think a

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lot of people are pretty lazy in there in their

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sense making. And we do what psychologists call projection. We

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project onto other people what we think, feel, assume, and

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I think that that's another error that people often make

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when trying to build relationships across cultures. And then the

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fourth error is what is what I call reducing relationship

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complexity to peach and coconuts. And the reason that I

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talk about this is because there is a common, well

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known in the cross cultural world idea that certain cultures

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are peach cultures and certain cultures are coconut cultures. And

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you can imagine the metaphor. A peach has soft flesh

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and then a hard interior, right a pit, whereas a

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coconuts the reverse. The coconut has the hard exterior and

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a soft er interior. And so people say, oh, well,

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Americans are peaches because they're very easy to get to know,

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that's the soft peach sort of exterior. But then at

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some point you just hit a wall and it's really

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all just superficial chitchack in small talk, and it's really

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hard to get through that pit. Whereas Germans, on the

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other hand, might be coconuts. It might be hard to

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make small talk, hard to build that initial rapport. It

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takes time to actually move from the informal version I'm sorry,

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from the formality of calling someone in or many Z

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versus the informal DO, and along with that the notion

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that it's appropriate and okay to call them do, that

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you've achieved that level of informality in a relationship in

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the US that might happen in two seconds. In Germany,

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it might take two months. The reason that I think

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that this is a mistake is just what I talked to,

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just what I alluded to before. I think it's a

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mistake because I think that there is so much variability

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within a culture. People are influenced by their organizational cultures,

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by their regional cultures, by their life stories, by their

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life experiences, and by their personalities, and so it's really

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a mistake to assume any of these sort of conventions,

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even if they are is memorable as a peach in

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a coconut.

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I do agree with you that we do tend to

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be lazy, and I'm a big fan of not the

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golden rule, but the platinum rule. Right, the golden rules

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do under those as you would like to have them

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do to you. Who cares? The platinum erulea is really

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about you on those as they would like that to

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be done for them or with them, So your focus

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is on the other person, not yourself, So I really

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really applaud what you've said. There Andy much more to cover.

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Let's grab our first break. I'm your host, Doctor Release Cortez.

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Weve run the air with doctor Andy Malinsky's professor of

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organizational behavior and International Management at Brandeis International Business School.

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His work helps people develop the insights and courage necessary

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to act outside their personal and cultural comfort zones. We're

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doing important to put challenging tasks and work in life.

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We've been talking a bit about the importance of global relationships.

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After the break, we're going to get into more of

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his methodology to master the logic of relationship building, using

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what he calls the six p's. Stay with us. We'll

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be right back.

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Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning

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and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies

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visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired

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leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and

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commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite

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a lease to speak to your organization, please visit her

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at Elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get

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your employees Working on Purpose. This is working on Purpose

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with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or

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to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to

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Alise A Lise at Elisecortes dot com. Now back to

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working on Purpose.

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Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to working

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on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes. As ITU

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am dedicated to helping create a world where people can

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realize the potential at work and they actually enjoyed those

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relationships and their contribution to the work. I keep researching

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and writing my own books. So the last one came

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out in March of twenty twenty three. It's called The

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Great Revitalization. How activating meeting and purpose can radically and

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liven your business. And I wrote it to help leaders

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understand the lay of today's workforce land what do they

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want to be connected to? You stay and give their

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best and then I offer you twenty two best practices

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to create a culture that will actually surface that for them.

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You can find it on my website at least core

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test dot com or Amazon if you are just joining

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Joining me now. My guest is doctor Andy Malinsky. He's

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the author of forging bonds in a global workforce, build rapport, camaraderie,

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and optimal performance no matter the time zone. Such a

356
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great title. By the way, Andy, such is an important thing.

357
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Titlers are so important. Okay, so this is fantastic, this

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is gold. You're six p's Andy, our goal. Let's talk

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about those. The first one especially is very intriguing to

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me and really understanding that that being power. So if

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you could just kind of talk us through these six

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piece why they're important and really how someone might actually

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use them to evaluate or to navigate a relationship.

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Yeah, So I'll just say quickly that the six piece

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came from our research for the book when we were

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talking with many, many people from different cultures, different professions,

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different industries about their experiences successful and unsuccessful at building relationships.

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These factors kept coming up time and time again in

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terms of distinguishing some of the cultural challenges in relationship building.

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So I thought that was interesting. So yeah, so the

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six piece our place, power, purpose, privacy, presence, and pacing. Pacing,

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and so the idea here is that when we grow

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up and are socialized into a particular culture, we have

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a certain schema or a script for how relationships happen.

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It's just seems so obvious to us. But the thing

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is is that people who are born and raised in

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different cultures with different scripts and schemas for relationships can

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have very different understandings. And when you and these can

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be a source of miscommunication, misperception and all. And and

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when you have these miscommunications and misperceptions, it can sort

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of like increase, I'm sorry, decrease the odds of a

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successful relationship launching or even rapport launching, you know, So

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that that's that's the idea. They're really they're important to understand,

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pay attention to. So should we go through a few

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of them?

386
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Yeah, yeah, please, it's definitely. I'm definitely very interested in

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the power and power one fit to start. I think

388
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that's just so critical to really understand.

389
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Sure, absolutely so. Power, I mean, power is a universal

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factor all the all the different frameworks about cultural differences

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emphasize power and that power that that sort of in

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the context of relationships, powers about who can have a

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relationship with whom so so for example, uh, in let's

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say Israel, Sweden, Denmark, I'm thinking about non hierarchical cultures

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globally speaking, it's not unusual to build a relationship with

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the superior in these countries. You also probably had very

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informal relationships with your teachers at school, perhaps even calling

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them by their first names. Whereas you know, all this

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stuff of course starts early. It starts also with how

400
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your parents praise you, and what the roles of parents are,

401
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and then the roles of teachers are, and how you

402
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interact with teachers. That's all about power, and then when

403
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you get to the workplace it influences as well, So

404
00:21:38.079 --> 00:21:41.960
building a relationship with the superior in Israel, Sweden, Denmark,

405
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maybe even the US too. In some ways it's not unusual.

406
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Of course, organizational culture matters too, But let's just talk

407
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about national culture in other cultures however, like East Asian

408
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cultures in particular, broadly speaking, but we can zero in

409
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on somewhere like Korea, for instance. In Korean corporate culture,

410
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it's highly unus usual for a junior worker to approach

411
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a senior colleague and try to get to know them

412
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on a personal level, very very very unusual Japan as well.

413
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You have to look for potential signals, and those signals

414
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if you're not from that culture and don't have an

415
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intimate knowledge of the culture. You probably overlook or misread

416
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the signals in the first place about when someone's opening

417
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the door for you, and it might take very very

418
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very long time given that power dynamic. So so so

419
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that's at the workplace, and so that those are important

420
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to know, right you could you could, very inadvertently, uh

421
00:22:34.440 --> 00:22:37.599
uh make a cultural faux pas uh in your efforts

422
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to try to build a relationship as an expad or

423
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a foreign worker, even on a short time abroad, and

424
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that could, you know, decrease the odds of building trust

425
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and creating rapport and ultimately a relationship. So that that's

426
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that that's power.

427
00:22:50.359 --> 00:22:53.599
Mm hmm. Maybe just talk about one more maybe privacy.

428
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Sure, yeah, privacy, privacy, uh you know, for instance, privacy

429
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would be uh. I'm trying to think of a good

430
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example here in Brazil, for instance, a lot of the

431
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interviewees that we talked with in Brazil said that there's

432
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almost no topic that they wouldn't discuss with their workmates.

433
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I remember when Brazilian like, what's the big deal, We're

434
00:23:17.359 --> 00:23:22.720
all just people, right, Whereas I remember a Taiwanese manager

435
00:23:22.759 --> 00:23:24.559
we interviewed, and of course we interviewed people from all

436
00:23:24.559 --> 00:23:28.000
around the world. The Taiwanese manager gave the absolute opposite perspective.

437
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He said, you know, he was talking about the American

438
00:23:31.400 --> 00:23:34.079
style getting to know you questions. He'd say, you know,

439
00:23:34.119 --> 00:23:36.039
they say these things, these things like tell me about

440
00:23:36.039 --> 00:23:39.079
yourself or ask questions about my background and my family,

441
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and I'm thinking to myself, slow down, I just met you.

442
00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:46.240
Let's talk about something less personal first, so that I mean,

443
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those would be some some illustrations and again, uh you

444
00:23:53.039 --> 00:23:56.319
could you could really create a make someone feel awkward

445
00:23:56.359 --> 00:24:00.839
and uncomfortable, uh, not understanding these cultural nor and and

446
00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:04.119
it might be you know, it might sort of make

447
00:24:04.160 --> 00:24:07.039
it difficult for the relationship to succeed, at least initially.

448
00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:09.400
So so that's why that's why some of these are important.

449
00:24:09.960 --> 00:24:12.440
Yeah, And what I want to also emphasize what you

450
00:24:12.440 --> 00:24:14.440
do beautifully in the book as well, is that you know,

451
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when we have these kinds of interactions and now we are,

452
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we are expecting the person that we're conversing with from

453
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across the world to either behave the same way we

454
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do communicate or want the same kind of connection that

455
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we do. And when they don't, we then either oftentimes

456
00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:31.880
decide we don't like them or we don't trust them.

457
00:24:32.279 --> 00:24:34.480
So now we're now we're getting into the you know,

458
00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:36.799
into the very opposite of what you're trying to put

459
00:24:36.839 --> 00:24:38.960
forth in your book. Here, You're you're we're looking for

460
00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:43.200
productive and meaningful relationships here. So this is why this

461
00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:44.440
stuff is just so important.

462
00:24:44.839 --> 00:24:46.960
Absolutely. We in fact, we have a little diagram in

463
00:24:46.960 --> 00:24:49.039
the book where we talk about very simply like they

464
00:24:49.119 --> 00:24:51.279
they act. The other person acts in a confusing or

465
00:24:51.359 --> 00:24:54.720
unexpected way. Maybe they don't show as much positive emotion

466
00:24:54.799 --> 00:24:57.400
as you're used to, or they're asking questions that are

467
00:24:57.599 --> 00:24:59.559
that are too private, or whatever it might be. And

468
00:24:59.599 --> 00:25:03.200
then you and immediately make that negative impression of their behavior,

469
00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:10.920
and I mean immediate, like instinctual, unconscious reflexive interpretations like

470
00:25:11.119 --> 00:25:13.160
I don't like them, they're weird or something like that,

471
00:25:13.279 --> 00:25:15.720
right right, And then you feel negative emotions. This is

472
00:25:15.759 --> 00:25:18.559
uncomfortable and anxious, and then you start to drift away,

473
00:25:18.680 --> 00:25:22.000
you develop a negative attitude. And all this happened so quickly.

474
00:25:22.759 --> 00:25:26.480
If you if anyone's read Danny Conneman's book Rest in Peace,

475
00:25:26.519 --> 00:25:29.480
he died a couple of months ago. Uh, thinking fast,

476
00:25:29.480 --> 00:25:32.160
thinking slow, These are the thinking fast. These are the

477
00:25:32.279 --> 00:25:35.480
unconscious ways that we process things right, and it happens

478
00:25:35.599 --> 00:25:37.599
very fast, and that's why this stuff's important to know.

479
00:25:38.680 --> 00:25:40.839
So good, so good, and I love this. This is

480
00:25:40.880 --> 00:25:42.960
just right up my alley. So very glad to have

481
00:25:43.039 --> 00:25:45.039
met you and be sharing you with my listeners and viewers.

482
00:25:46.200 --> 00:25:48.640
So you have a section here, I think it's actually

483
00:25:48.680 --> 00:25:51.039
a whole chapter on starting a conversation with someone that

484
00:25:51.079 --> 00:25:53.279
you don't know, and you know, you offer some different things,

485
00:25:53.400 --> 00:25:56.000
using even such things as small talk, which I personally

486
00:25:56.079 --> 00:25:58.880
don't like, but some people other cultures do like that,

487
00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:01.440
and focusing on things like what you have in common,

488
00:26:01.519 --> 00:26:04.400
and asking open end questions of course, showing interest, all

489
00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:06.839
these kinds of things that we can start to employ

490
00:26:06.960 --> 00:26:09.640
to reach across the aisle. If you will, I think

491
00:26:09.640 --> 00:26:11.799
it would be really interesting, because I loved reading this

492
00:26:11.880 --> 00:26:14.400
in your book, if you could share a little bit about,

493
00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:16.359
like you did in the book, some examples of how

494
00:26:16.359 --> 00:26:20.079
different cultures approach and engage just in small talk, for example,

495
00:26:20.920 --> 00:26:23.400
that was fascinating to me to really discover. I know

496
00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:28.440
you talked about from the Russian view, China, Korea, Namibia,

497
00:26:28.559 --> 00:26:29.440
and Nicaragua.

498
00:26:30.440 --> 00:26:35.640
Yeah, yeah, so so so you know, I can tell

499
00:26:35.640 --> 00:26:38.839
you right away that making small talk with strangers in

500
00:26:38.920 --> 00:26:44.039
China is incredibly Unusual's that's one example, Okay, you know

501
00:26:44.079 --> 00:26:45.720
that that we wouldn't have known necessary. I mean I

502
00:26:45.799 --> 00:26:47.400
certainly know it because I have I have a lot

503
00:26:47.440 --> 00:26:50.720
of Chinese NBA students and as a project in one

504
00:26:50.759 --> 00:26:53.920
of my classes, they have to pick something that's unfamiliar

505
00:26:53.960 --> 00:26:56.119
and uncomfortable for them, but they know that's important in

506
00:26:56.160 --> 00:26:59.000
the US, and that's one that people often do. So

507
00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:03.440
that that's that. It's a good example. So where small

508
00:27:03.480 --> 00:27:06.440
talk happens is another one. Like I don't think I

509
00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:09.079
have it in this particular chapter, but in general, in Japan,

510
00:27:09.160 --> 00:27:11.640
for instance, you're not typically going to make small talk,

511
00:27:11.720 --> 00:27:14.039
certainly not with a superior at work. It just doesn't happen.

512
00:27:14.119 --> 00:27:16.440
It's just sort of like all professional I mean, of

513
00:27:16.440 --> 00:27:18.880
course organizational culture matters too, I need to say that,

514
00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:20.960
but in general, but then if you go to a

515
00:27:21.039 --> 00:27:23.799
karaoke bar out for dinner and have some drinks afterwards

516
00:27:23.839 --> 00:27:27.440
in that space, in that place, those norms are relaxed,

517
00:27:27.759 --> 00:27:29.960
and you might very well make small talk with someone.

518
00:27:29.960 --> 00:27:33.079
But then what's really interesting is it doesn't necessarily carry

519
00:27:33.119 --> 00:27:35.039
back over to work the next day, as it might

520
00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:37.640
in the United States, where you share a crazy evening

521
00:27:37.759 --> 00:27:39.960
and you're making small talk and you did karaoke or

522
00:27:39.960 --> 00:27:42.039
whatever you're doing, and then the next day at work

523
00:27:42.079 --> 00:27:45.079
you might imagine sort of a softer, more friendly connection

524
00:27:45.160 --> 00:27:47.200
that you might even have with a superior and so on.

525
00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:50.039
In the US, that's not the case in Japan. Usually,

526
00:27:50.079 --> 00:27:53.759
typically it will just sort of like that that relationship

527
00:27:53.799 --> 00:27:56.599
building is sort of like sectioned off into that into

528
00:27:56.680 --> 00:28:03.119
that particular place and space. Uh. Lots of different examples.

529
00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:08.079
Russia is another example where it's it's power matters a lot,

530
00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:10.480
so you're typically making small talk with people of your

531
00:28:10.599 --> 00:28:15.400
level or lower. That's another example. There's so many different examples. Uh,

532
00:28:15.640 --> 00:28:19.799
you know. Uh, Nicaragua, for instance, is sort of like

533
00:28:19.839 --> 00:28:22.839
Brazil in the sense that it's very small talks, very

534
00:28:23.079 --> 00:28:27.359
very common, casual, unstructured. It can become very personal, very

535
00:28:27.400 --> 00:28:31.200
quickly fluid, you know what I mean. So so so

536
00:28:31.319 --> 00:28:34.440
it's you know, very different from Germany, where small talk

537
00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:38.880
is fairly unusual. It's it's not that all it's not

538
00:28:38.920 --> 00:28:41.599
that all Germans don't like small talk, but but the

539
00:28:41.599 --> 00:28:45.519
the cultural tendency I would say is to avoid small talk,

540
00:28:45.880 --> 00:28:50.000
avoid chit chat. And what's interesting the cultural logic there

541
00:28:50.200 --> 00:28:55.799
would be that typically small talk is seen as inefficient. Uh,

542
00:28:55.920 --> 00:29:02.759
it's seen as you know, uh, unimportant, not serious and

543
00:29:02.799 --> 00:29:05.359
so on, because of course, after all, we're here to

544
00:29:05.359 --> 00:29:07.680
talk business, you know what I mean. So so people

545
00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:09.799
can have different perspectives on it. But yeah, there's lot

546
00:29:09.920 --> 00:29:11.880
lots more in the book, of course. Yeah. Yeah.

547
00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:13.680
One of the other things that I was very intrigued

548
00:29:13.720 --> 00:29:16.519
by Andy was just this notion of how you share.

549
00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:21.039
How Finns finished people tend to be very, very comfortable

550
00:29:21.079 --> 00:29:24.039
with silence, and they don't need to fill the room

551
00:29:24.119 --> 00:29:27.400
with just random just talking. They're very comfortable with silence.

552
00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:32.240
And I think that's really fascinating and I could hang

553
00:29:32.279 --> 00:29:32.960
with that crowd.

554
00:29:34.599 --> 00:29:41.079
Yeah, it is. It is interesting. And again, the reason

555
00:29:41.240 --> 00:29:44.200
to me that that's so interesting is that sort of

556
00:29:44.519 --> 00:29:48.519
unconscious sense making that we would make. Again, like let's

557
00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:52.400
say a Finn were very wasn't making any you know,

558
00:29:52.400 --> 00:29:55.039
we said something, they said something, and then there's this

559
00:29:55.119 --> 00:29:58.480
long period to an American perspective, from an American perspective

560
00:29:58.480 --> 00:30:01.160
of silence, the key question is is how do we

561
00:30:01.200 --> 00:30:03.720
interpret that and you might very well interpret it that

562
00:30:03.759 --> 00:30:07.200
this this this person isn't interested in me, or this

563
00:30:07.240 --> 00:30:09.359
person is awkward and I don't like them, or whatever

564
00:30:09.400 --> 00:30:11.359
it might be. But from a finished perspective, it could

565
00:30:11.359 --> 00:30:12.559
be absolutely normal.

566
00:30:13.039 --> 00:30:16.519
So yeah, it's just it's delightful. I mean, I just,

567
00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:19.680
I just I'm a social scientist like you, and and

568
00:30:19.720 --> 00:30:23.039
so I find all this stuff completely fascinating and riveting

569
00:30:23.039 --> 00:30:26.559
that we're this wonderful mix of stew across the whole world,

570
00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:29.839
and together we can prize the globe, and yet we

571
00:30:30.039 --> 00:30:33.680
know we act and behave and prefer such different things.

572
00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:38.599
And I think it's delightful. I fell I knew you

573
00:30:38.680 --> 00:30:41.599
would well now speaking of that. You know, here I am.

574
00:30:41.680 --> 00:30:44.319
This is that's this is me expressing who I am.

575
00:30:44.400 --> 00:30:47.119
You have a whole chapter which I thought was fascinating

576
00:30:47.720 --> 00:30:52.359
on how and when to let our personalities shine through

577
00:30:52.400 --> 00:30:54.839
when we're meeting people of different cultures, and you give

578
00:30:54.920 --> 00:30:57.799
us some different tips about you know, when to do

579
00:30:57.839 --> 00:30:59.920
that when that's appropriate. So maybe we can just cover

580
00:31:00.039 --> 00:31:02.759
a couple of those things. That was fascinating, by the way.

581
00:31:04.440 --> 00:31:09.279
Yeah, and that's always that's always an interesting question about

582
00:31:10.440 --> 00:31:14.119
do I suppress who I am? To be appropriate or

583
00:31:14.279 --> 00:31:18.400
do I or do I just be myself? And you

584
00:31:18.440 --> 00:31:21.519
get very different views on that from very different people.

585
00:31:21.640 --> 00:31:25.799
My view always has been that it's important to have

586
00:31:25.839 --> 00:31:29.000
your cake and eat it too, to do both that

587
00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:32.519
and that's well. I actually wrote a whole book about

588
00:31:32.559 --> 00:31:36.359
that in twenty thirteen. My book Global Dexterity is about

589
00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:41.519
the challenges and opportunities to step outside your cultural comfort zone,

590
00:31:41.799 --> 00:31:44.680
to adapt and adjust your behavior, but not lose yourself

591
00:31:44.680 --> 00:31:47.000
in the process. So there, what I find is there

592
00:31:47.039 --> 00:31:49.359
are ways. There's no perfect way to make small talk,

593
00:31:49.400 --> 00:31:52.160
there's no perfect way to make conversation. There are sort

594
00:31:52.200 --> 00:31:56.039
of cultural norms, let's say, but you can often find

595
00:31:56.039 --> 00:31:59.279
a place within the norms of a new culture and

596
00:31:59.359 --> 00:32:04.079
still simntaneously be yourself or enough of yourself to feel comfortable.

597
00:32:04.359 --> 00:32:08.240
And that's what I think is really important to remember

598
00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:11.000
that you can have your cake and need it too.

599
00:32:11.039 --> 00:32:13.519
You can find ways to be yourself and be effective

600
00:32:13.519 --> 00:32:15.319
and appropriate in a new culture. It's sort of like,

601
00:32:15.759 --> 00:32:18.079
to be honest, I often think about it. I like

602
00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:19.920
to cook, and I often think about it as like

603
00:32:19.960 --> 00:32:23.359
being a fusion chef. It's like you're bringing together different

604
00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:26.160
ingredients you can't just slap them together. It's probably not

605
00:32:26.200 --> 00:32:29.119
going to taste good, but it's a process of experimentation

606
00:32:29.240 --> 00:32:31.519
and tasting and refining, and that's the same thing you'll

607
00:32:31.519 --> 00:32:32.759
do with your behavior as well.

608
00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:37.039
Beautiful Andy, let's grab our last break. I'm your host,

609
00:32:37.079 --> 00:32:40.119
Doctor Release Cortez. We're on the air with doctor Andy Malinsky,

610
00:32:40.200 --> 00:32:43.799
Professor of Organizational behavior in International Management at Brandeis International

611
00:32:43.880 --> 00:32:47.319
Business School. IS work helps people develop the insights encourage

612
00:32:47.359 --> 00:32:50.519
necessary to act outside their personal and cultural comfort zones

613
00:32:50.920 --> 00:32:53.920
when doing important but challenging tasking work in life. We've

614
00:32:53.920 --> 00:32:56.160
been talking a bit about some of the pearls from

615
00:32:56.200 --> 00:32:59.759
his book about how to really develop cross culture relationships.

616
00:33:00.119 --> 00:33:01.759
After the rec we're going to get into the critical

617
00:33:01.799 --> 00:33:05.000
piece of developing trust in those relationships. Stay what's we

618
00:33:05.119 --> 00:33:05.559
write back?

619
00:33:20.599 --> 00:33:24.160
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning

620
00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:28.039
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author. She helps companies

621
00:33:28.119 --> 00:33:31.920
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired

622
00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:35.960
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and

623
00:33:36.039 --> 00:33:39.279
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite

624
00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:42.039
a lease to speak to your organization. Please visit her

625
00:33:42.079 --> 00:33:45.319
at Elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get

626
00:33:45.359 --> 00:33:54.160
your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose

627
00:33:54.279 --> 00:33:57.519
with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or

628
00:33:57.559 --> 00:34:00.359
to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to

629
00:34:00.400 --> 00:34:05.319
a lease A Lisee at a lascortes dot com. Now

630
00:34:05.599 --> 00:34:07.160
back to working on purpose.

631
00:34:12.719 --> 00:34:14.440
Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to working

632
00:34:14.519 --> 00:34:17.320
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor release Cortes. As I

633
00:34:17.400 --> 00:34:20.079
mentioned in the last break, my latest book coming out,

634
00:34:20.119 --> 00:34:22.440
the Great Revitalization. What I did for you is I

635
00:34:22.480 --> 00:34:25.400
built a three page assessment that you can download from

636
00:34:25.400 --> 00:34:28.719
my website gustodeshnow dot com that will be able to

637
00:34:28.760 --> 00:34:30.880
tell you the extent to which your current culture actually

638
00:34:30.880 --> 00:34:34.280
meets the discerning needs of today's workforce. If you are

639
00:34:34.400 --> 00:34:36.880
just now joining us. My guest is doctor Andy Malinski.

640
00:34:36.920 --> 00:34:39.679
He's the author of Forging Bonds in a Global Workforce,

641
00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:44.400
Build rapport, camaraderie, and optimal performance no matter the time zone.

642
00:34:44.800 --> 00:34:47.320
So this next bit here about trust, I thought was

643
00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:50.280
just really delicious and really important. And trust is such

644
00:34:50.280 --> 00:34:53.000
an important part of relationships, especially if we're wanting to

645
00:34:53.000 --> 00:34:56.000
do business and anything in a long term way. So

646
00:34:56.239 --> 00:34:59.519
I like how you offer this idea, Andy that you

647
00:34:59.559 --> 00:35:02.400
say that meta messages are really important to send in

648
00:35:02.440 --> 00:35:05.400
your communication when dealing with people of different cultures than

649
00:35:05.440 --> 00:35:07.239
your own. And I want to talk about each one

650
00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:09.400
of those four because they're just so important, I think.

651
00:35:10.360 --> 00:35:12.360
But the first one is you say, you know that

652
00:35:12.400 --> 00:35:16.000
this notion of conveying that I respect your culture even

653
00:35:16.039 --> 00:35:18.239
if it's not my own so important.

654
00:35:20.199 --> 00:35:23.519
Yeah, I respect your culture even if it's not my own.

655
00:35:23.599 --> 00:35:26.440
And there are many different I mean, you can say that,

656
00:35:26.639 --> 00:35:30.360
but what's really important is to actually show that. Yes,

657
00:35:30.639 --> 00:35:36.320
instead of saying it, is showing it. For example, it

658
00:35:36.360 --> 00:35:39.679
could be little things, such little things like here's an example,

659
00:35:39.719 --> 00:35:45.000
someone who when going abroad for a meeting always goes

660
00:35:45.039 --> 00:35:49.639
the day before or two asks for some suggestions ahead

661
00:35:49.679 --> 00:35:52.440
of time of what to see in the city, seize them,

662
00:35:52.599 --> 00:35:56.599
does them, goes to restaurants whatever that the host is recommended.

663
00:35:57.000 --> 00:36:00.280
And then what an amazing amount of sort of like

664
00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:05.599
meaningful small talk fodder. You've got right, and you've showed it.

665
00:36:05.679 --> 00:36:07.800
You've showed that you're interested, you know, and you you

666
00:36:07.880 --> 00:36:10.159
might you know, it's not that you're probably going to

667
00:36:10.199 --> 00:36:14.159
be genuinely and authentically interested in every single part of that,

668
00:36:15.079 --> 00:36:17.480
every single aspect that you visited. And you probably won't

669
00:36:17.519 --> 00:36:18.960
like all the restaurants or even all the food, but

670
00:36:19.000 --> 00:36:23.480
there'll be some things that you are authentically interested in,

671
00:36:23.719 --> 00:36:27.159
that you were excited about, maybe that you're even curious about,

672
00:36:27.559 --> 00:36:29.800
you know, like I saw all these posters, I saw

673
00:36:29.800 --> 00:36:33.599
all these science for cricket matches. You know, I love sports.

674
00:36:33.639 --> 00:36:36.559
I've never seen a cricket match. I mean, can you

675
00:36:36.559 --> 00:36:38.920
explain that to me? You know, like, whatever it might

676
00:36:38.960 --> 00:36:41.880
be because you're showing interest, but it has to be genuine,

677
00:36:41.920 --> 00:36:46.079
it has to be you know, authentic. And what's nice

678
00:36:46.159 --> 00:36:48.480
is that there's so many it's like a it's like

679
00:36:48.519 --> 00:36:50.840
a I guess I keep thinking of these food metaphors.

680
00:36:50.840 --> 00:36:52.599
It's like a big buffet, and you're not going to

681
00:36:52.719 --> 00:36:54.800
like everything, but there's gonna be some things you like.

682
00:36:55.159 --> 00:36:57.800
Find the things you like, hone in on those, and

683
00:36:57.840 --> 00:37:00.880
that shows your your your true interest. And I think

684
00:37:00.920 --> 00:37:03.559
that's a great way that in and of itself doesn't

685
00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:05.920
build trust, but it shows the seeds you.

686
00:37:05.880 --> 00:37:08.800
Know well, and let's just contrast what that looks like

687
00:37:08.840 --> 00:37:11.400
when it's not present, you know, when somebody goes to

688
00:37:11.440 --> 00:37:13.519
a different country and they just refuse to eat any

689
00:37:13.559 --> 00:37:15.880
of the local food. I don't like it. It's not

690
00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:18.239
what I eat at home, and it just boy, that

691
00:37:18.400 --> 00:37:22.559
just slams the brakes on any kind of connection and such. So, yeah,

692
00:37:22.599 --> 00:37:26.000
the showing the interest and the respect is so so important.

693
00:37:26.599 --> 00:37:28.840
And then along that line, their second one is I'm

694
00:37:28.840 --> 00:37:30.039
willing to meet you halfway.

695
00:37:31.559 --> 00:37:33.920
Yeah, So I mean, I don't know if this was

696
00:37:33.960 --> 00:37:37.079
an example that related to that exact point in the book,

697
00:37:37.519 --> 00:37:40.320
but I have there's a great story that's very along

698
00:37:40.360 --> 00:37:43.920
the lines of that. It's an American born HR manager

699
00:37:43.920 --> 00:37:47.480
who goes up to Canada and he is starting to

700
00:37:47.599 --> 00:37:52.840
manage a very large French speaking workforce in Montreal and

701
00:37:53.000 --> 00:37:56.679
Quebec and he has to give a big speech to

702
00:37:57.000 --> 00:37:59.199
a lot of the new employees and he does it

703
00:37:59.239 --> 00:38:02.000
in French. Now, I should tell you he didn't major

704
00:38:02.039 --> 00:38:04.320
in French. He's not good at language. Yes, it was

705
00:38:04.400 --> 00:38:06.400
really I didn't hear the speech, but I think it

706
00:38:06.480 --> 00:38:10.239
was pretty butchered French. But he really tried. And he also,

707
00:38:10.360 --> 00:38:13.440
by the way, tried to learn. He could skate already,

708
00:38:13.440 --> 00:38:15.679
but he didn't play hockey, and so he woke up

709
00:38:15.719 --> 00:38:17.480
with him at six in the morning to play hockey

710
00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:21.840
and he ended up actually breaking a rib. But that's

711
00:38:21.880 --> 00:38:26.599
a side point. But he's kind of he's kind of

712
00:38:26.639 --> 00:38:28.840
given it a go. He's you know, now, I don't

713
00:38:28.840 --> 00:38:31.800
think he's probably gonnac commodate in every single way. They're

714
00:38:31.800 --> 00:38:34.559
probably gonna be some ways that he wants to that that,

715
00:38:34.679 --> 00:38:36.719
you know, sort of his ways of doing things that

716
00:38:36.760 --> 00:38:40.360
he wants to introduce and incorporate. But it is you

717
00:38:40.639 --> 00:38:44.320
do have to show you do have to show some

718
00:38:44.320 --> 00:38:47.760
some respect. You know that that that I value you.

719
00:38:47.840 --> 00:38:52.000
I value the relationship. You know what I mean, I value.

720
00:38:51.960 --> 00:38:54.199
Yeah, And I think to your point, Andy, and reach

721
00:38:54.239 --> 00:38:56.599
across the aisle. I'm trying French. I'm not great at

722
00:38:56.719 --> 00:38:59.119
maybe maybe I'm not great at foreign languages, but I

723
00:38:59.239 --> 00:39:02.400
learned these things about your language and your culture and

724
00:39:02.559 --> 00:39:05.960
I'm putting them forth to you. And I've seen that

725
00:39:06.079 --> 00:39:08.840
over and over again. People so appreciate that I learned

726
00:39:08.840 --> 00:39:11.039
Italian when I was there for the first month thyk

727
00:39:11.039 --> 00:39:14.719
in twenty thirteen. And what was delightful was they didn't

728
00:39:14.760 --> 00:39:17.159
respond back to me in English. They responded back to

729
00:39:17.199 --> 00:39:19.119
me in Italian. I'm like, Oh, this must be good.

730
00:39:19.559 --> 00:39:21.559
I must be at least able to convey my what

731
00:39:21.599 --> 00:39:24.639
I'm trying to say. So yeah, meeting them halfway so

732
00:39:24.639 --> 00:39:27.519
so important. And then number three is I'm someone you

733
00:39:27.559 --> 00:39:28.239
can relate to.

734
00:39:29.519 --> 00:39:32.840
Yeah, And I mean that comes from that comes from

735
00:39:32.920 --> 00:39:37.960
your your ability to try to find connections and find similarities.

736
00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:41.679
So much of cross cultural Anyone listening to this who

737
00:39:41.719 --> 00:39:44.519
knows anything about sort of culture and global business, they've

738
00:39:44.519 --> 00:39:47.360
probably heard about cultural differences. I mean that's I think

739
00:39:47.400 --> 00:39:50.880
that the field is my field. This field is obsessed

740
00:39:50.920 --> 00:39:55.079
with differences, right. The problem is is that you don't

741
00:39:55.079 --> 00:39:58.079
build relationships by focusing on differences. That's not how you

742
00:39:58.079 --> 00:40:00.840
do it in your own culture. You build relationships by

743
00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:05.400
discovering similarities, commonalities, That's how you build your relationships. I

744
00:40:05.480 --> 00:40:08.480
remember one time I was doing an executive ED program

745
00:40:08.519 --> 00:40:12.199
executive education program. I was teaching in it, and it

746
00:40:12.239 --> 00:40:15.280
was with a Korean company and a large Korean company,

747
00:40:15.320 --> 00:40:19.199
and I remember going at lunchtime to have lunch with

748
00:40:19.239 --> 00:40:21.400
some of the folks that I was that I was teaching.

749
00:40:22.159 --> 00:40:24.519
There was only one table that was open, and there

750
00:40:24.559 --> 00:40:27.239
was a Korean guy who was asleep on the table.

751
00:40:27.280 --> 00:40:28.960
His head was on the table. I was like the

752
00:40:29.000 --> 00:40:32.599
only seat open in the entire like cafe, a cafeterian.

753
00:40:32.639 --> 00:40:34.800
So I joined him and he sees me. He knows

754
00:40:34.840 --> 00:40:36.719
who I am. I was a professor, and he's like

755
00:40:36.760 --> 00:40:38.199
he gets up and he says, oh, I'm so sorry,

756
00:40:38.239 --> 00:40:40.079
I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm just so tired.

757
00:40:40.119 --> 00:40:43.079
And so I could have stopped it there, you know,

758
00:40:43.159 --> 00:40:45.519
and said, okay, I accept your apology or something like that,

759
00:40:45.559 --> 00:40:47.880
but I didn't do that. I actually asked him. I

760
00:40:47.920 --> 00:40:51.559
was curious. I said, oh, so you know what, you know.

761
00:40:52.079 --> 00:40:54.079
I must have asked him why he was tired. Not

762
00:40:54.400 --> 00:40:56.039
in a sort of blaming way, but it's sort of

763
00:40:56.039 --> 00:40:58.960
in a curious way. Turns out, like long story short,

764
00:40:59.199 --> 00:41:02.400
he has he has two he had two very young children. Uh,

765
00:41:03.320 --> 00:41:05.679
and he was getting no sleep at home, and then

766
00:41:05.679 --> 00:41:08.039
he flew all the way from Korea to this to this,

767
00:41:08.159 --> 00:41:10.519
you know session, and so he was exhausted, and he said,

768
00:41:10.639 --> 00:41:12.679
you know, I'm tired here, but I'm so happy because

769
00:41:12.719 --> 00:41:14.239
this is the only place I've been able to get

770
00:41:14.280 --> 00:41:17.360
sleep for months. And I said to him, what was

771
00:41:17.400 --> 00:41:21.079
funny at the time was that I too had two

772
00:41:21.320 --> 00:41:24.679
very young children. And I completely identified what he was

773
00:41:24.719 --> 00:41:28.960
talking about, and we built this connection through small talk

774
00:41:29.199 --> 00:41:32.000
in a sense, through finding a similarity. I didn't have

775
00:41:32.079 --> 00:41:34.719
much in common with this guy at all, I don't think,

776
00:41:34.800 --> 00:41:37.440
but we absolutely had this in common and it was

777
00:41:37.480 --> 00:41:39.280
sort of it started to sow the seeds of a

778
00:41:39.320 --> 00:41:41.920
potential connection. That's what I mean. I think when you're

779
00:41:41.920 --> 00:41:44.920
trying to build trust across cultures, you want to be respectful,

780
00:41:45.159 --> 00:41:47.599
you want to be relatable, and you also want to

781
00:41:47.639 --> 00:41:49.920
be reliable. And then that that has to do with

782
00:41:50.119 --> 00:41:53.519
you know, work and you know, following through and all that.

783
00:41:53.639 --> 00:41:55.639
But respectful, relatable, and reliable.

784
00:41:56.079 --> 00:41:58.960
Yeah, uh, on the point of I'm someone you can

785
00:41:59.039 --> 00:42:01.199
relate to. Just one thing I like to share is

786
00:42:01.679 --> 00:42:04.719
I don't know a lot about Asian cultures. I'm very

787
00:42:04.719 --> 00:42:07.320
interested to learn and spend more time over there. But

788
00:42:07.400 --> 00:42:09.559
what I think I know. You please correct me, Andy

789
00:42:09.599 --> 00:42:11.360
if I've got I'm missing a point here. But I

790
00:42:11.360 --> 00:42:15.400
believe in maybe the Chinese culture, maybe the Japanese culture,

791
00:42:15.400 --> 00:42:17.920
that when someone gives you their business card, or you

792
00:42:17.960 --> 00:42:20.760
give them their your business card, they take it in

793
00:42:20.840 --> 00:42:24.400
both their hands and then they read the whole thing,

794
00:42:24.480 --> 00:42:28.079
They study the whole thing, that's respectful. We Americans tend

795
00:42:28.119 --> 00:42:31.159
to grab it and just put in our pocket. Right, So,

796
00:42:31.280 --> 00:42:34.800
when I'm interacting with someone and from there where, I

797
00:42:34.840 --> 00:42:36.760
believe that that would be the way they want me

798
00:42:36.880 --> 00:42:39.440
to receive their business card. I do that. I take

799
00:42:39.480 --> 00:42:42.920
it with both my hands and read that I read it,

800
00:42:42.960 --> 00:42:46.159
and I usually will say something about the card to

801
00:42:46.320 --> 00:42:49.199
show that I did read it. What culture is that?

802
00:42:49.519 --> 00:42:50.320
Do I have that right?

803
00:42:50.599 --> 00:42:53.320
Japan? Yeah? Japan. And you also want to make sure

804
00:42:53.360 --> 00:42:56.239
that when you're handing someone in your card that the

805
00:42:56.360 --> 00:43:01.159
writing is facing them. Okay, yeah, is another sign of respect.

806
00:43:02.320 --> 00:43:05.119
Just I just think it's just beautiful. So, you know,

807
00:43:05.159 --> 00:43:07.000
little things that you can do to step out of

808
00:43:07.039 --> 00:43:09.679
your normal way of being and relating to show this

809
00:43:09.719 --> 00:43:12.159
person I see you. I know this is important to you.

810
00:43:13.880 --> 00:43:15.719
I've made an effort, and I made an.

811
00:43:15.599 --> 00:43:19.480
Effort exactly right. So so and you do talk about

812
00:43:19.599 --> 00:43:21.480
I'm going to go because we're coming close to I

813
00:43:21.519 --> 00:43:23.719
don't know where the time goes, so fast, let's go on.

814
00:43:23.800 --> 00:43:27.079
I want to talk about building relationships in a team environment,

815
00:43:27.559 --> 00:43:29.679
especially today, as you say, you know we've we can

816
00:43:29.760 --> 00:43:32.719
have a team of that might represent you know, fourteen

817
00:43:32.760 --> 00:43:35.920
different countries so interesting, So let's talk a little bit.

818
00:43:35.960 --> 00:43:39.360
You offer five conditions for a team's success, plus an insight,

819
00:43:39.440 --> 00:43:42.880
you say, on leveraging cultural brokers. Maybe we can just

820
00:43:42.880 --> 00:43:44.440
talk briefly about those that'd be great.

821
00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:49.079
Yeah, sure, so so those those So the cultural broker

822
00:43:49.159 --> 00:43:51.480
idea I'll just quickly say, is that there is some

823
00:43:51.599 --> 00:43:54.679
interesting research by a colleague of Mind and NCID in France,

824
00:43:54.840 --> 00:43:59.480
the Business Glanciad that says that teams that have people

825
00:43:59.480 --> 00:44:03.119
who fulfill the role of a cultural broker tend to

826
00:44:03.119 --> 00:44:06.159
be more effective, more creative, and so on. And what

827
00:44:06.159 --> 00:44:09.400
a cultural broker is is it someone who's either familiar

828
00:44:09.440 --> 00:44:11.679
with the two cultures on the team, in other words,

829
00:44:11.719 --> 00:44:14.800
they're bilingual by cultural or very skilled in both, or

830
00:44:15.159 --> 00:44:19.199
they're very knowledgeable about crossing cultures in general. And it's

831
00:44:19.199 --> 00:44:21.800
sort of like a resource that the team actually has

832
00:44:21.800 --> 00:44:24.400
within it. And so when we're staffing teams and when

833
00:44:24.440 --> 00:44:27.800
we're creating global teams, we don't often necessarily think about that, right,

834
00:44:28.599 --> 00:44:31.280
we just think about, you know, the who's on the

835
00:44:31.440 --> 00:44:33.800
team because of the particular function that they have, or

836
00:44:34.119 --> 00:44:35.679
you know, so on, and how it relates to the

837
00:44:35.719 --> 00:44:38.960
actual work. But the cross cultural softer. You know, let's

838
00:44:38.960 --> 00:44:42.239
say element I think is also quite important. The other

839
00:44:42.320 --> 00:44:45.679
aspects of building a team in that chapter have to

840
00:44:45.679 --> 00:44:50.599
do with some classic features of team building. Actually, you

841
00:44:50.639 --> 00:44:57.360
know then they have to do with things like having

842
00:44:57.360 --> 00:45:01.880
the right people on the team, providing the critical resources

843
00:45:01.920 --> 00:45:07.800
information that the team needs, uh, establishing norms early on

844
00:45:08.239 --> 00:45:11.079
for being successful as a team. Uh. And you know

845
00:45:11.320 --> 00:45:13.119
it's it's like, you know, we might come from we

846
00:45:13.199 --> 00:45:16.639
might all come from different cultures, but you know what,

847
00:45:16.639 --> 00:45:19.840
what's what's this team's culture going to be? I think

848
00:45:19.880 --> 00:45:24.000
that's a really important, uh, really important thing to do

849
00:45:24.079 --> 00:45:26.119
as a team leader or just even as a self

850
00:45:26.159 --> 00:45:29.079
managing team to decide what the norms how we're going

851
00:45:29.159 --> 00:45:31.880
to operate, right, because otherwise people just bring their default

852
00:45:31.920 --> 00:45:35.239
perspectives and it might just be sort of like a mismatch.

853
00:45:35.599 --> 00:45:39.480
Uh and and and potentially cause misperception. So those are

854
00:45:39.480 --> 00:45:41.239
some of the ideas mm hm.

855
00:45:41.760 --> 00:45:45.159
So I did chuckle about this. Andy. You also put

856
00:45:45.199 --> 00:45:48.480
forth in that one to provide competent coaching, I would say,

857
00:45:48.519 --> 00:45:53.000
as opposed to incompetent coaching, But it just made me laugh.

858
00:45:53.000 --> 00:45:54.400
I'm like, that's part of what I do in my work.

859
00:45:54.400 --> 00:45:56.199
So I just I had a little small giggle on that.

860
00:45:56.719 --> 00:45:59.719
Yeah, so we're probably the less time.

861
00:45:59.599 --> 00:46:01.880
We can cover here. Just this is so important to

862
00:46:01.880 --> 00:46:04.880
recognize that we are going to have disagreements in conflicts

863
00:46:04.880 --> 00:46:08.239
when we were working across culturally. It's a natural manifestation

864
00:46:08.360 --> 00:46:11.679
of working with people from different perspectives and ways of operating.

865
00:46:12.159 --> 00:46:13.960
And I love the example that you have in the

866
00:46:14.000 --> 00:46:16.800
book about Clara and Philippe that you know they and

867
00:46:16.840 --> 00:46:19.280
what I love about that is the way she especially

868
00:46:19.320 --> 00:46:22.559
handled that. She had the confidence because she had, you know,

869
00:46:22.599 --> 00:46:25.239
done her homework and worked in schooling herself in this

870
00:46:25.280 --> 00:46:29.639
way so that when she got Phelipe's very strong response

871
00:46:29.760 --> 00:46:33.000
to how he perceived her workshop, that she didn't take

872
00:46:33.039 --> 00:46:34.920
it personally and she didn't she wasn't crushed by it.

873
00:46:34.960 --> 00:46:36.920
So can you just say a little bit about this

874
00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:40.760
notion of like like with maybe in a minute navigating

875
00:46:40.880 --> 00:46:42.440
you know, disagreements in conflict.

876
00:46:43.320 --> 00:46:45.639
Yeah, I think so what I would say is disagreement

877
00:46:45.639 --> 00:46:49.400
in conflict is quasi inevitable. And I think that what

878
00:46:49.440 --> 00:46:51.119
you really want to do is you want to try

879
00:46:51.199 --> 00:46:56.360
to stabilize a relationship by sending three critical messages. However

880
00:46:56.480 --> 00:46:58.920
you want to send them. However you can send them

881
00:46:58.960 --> 00:47:02.480
given the content, text, your personality, your style, whatever, and

882
00:47:02.519 --> 00:47:04.280
what you want to see, what you want to show,

883
00:47:04.559 --> 00:47:06.159
and what you want to say, and what you want

884
00:47:06.199 --> 00:47:08.840
to do is show that you value the other person,

885
00:47:09.559 --> 00:47:14.760
you value the relationship, and that you value yourself. You know,

886
00:47:14.920 --> 00:47:19.199
and however you do that, those those meta messages I

887
00:47:19.280 --> 00:47:23.039
value the relationship, I value you, and I value myself.

888
00:47:23.320 --> 00:47:26.039
And I think by communicating those things and however you

889
00:47:26.079 --> 00:47:28.119
do them, I think those are really critical to be

890
00:47:28.159 --> 00:47:31.840
able to stabilize and potentially even grow the relationship, transform

891
00:47:32.199 --> 00:47:36.800
a conflict into an opportunity for learning, understanding, maybe even deepening.

892
00:47:37.719 --> 00:47:41.159
Beautiful Andy, So you know by now, I think that

893
00:47:41.239 --> 00:47:43.840
this show has has been on air for nine years.

894
00:47:43.960 --> 00:47:46.440
It's listened to by people around the world who tune

895
00:47:46.440 --> 00:47:48.679
in because they want to either learn more about how

896
00:47:48.719 --> 00:47:51.719
they can have a more meaningful work experience, they want

897
00:47:51.719 --> 00:47:54.320
to be part of helping to create those destination workplaces.

898
00:47:54.880 --> 00:47:58.360
What would you like to leave them with today?

899
00:47:58.079 --> 00:48:04.440
That crossing cultures building relationships across cultures is not rocket science,

900
00:48:04.719 --> 00:48:08.119
but there are some really important tips and things to consider,

901
00:48:08.519 --> 00:48:12.199
and it's a skill that is absolutely learnable. And don't

902
00:48:12.199 --> 00:48:16.159
just focus on cultural differences. That's what I would say.

903
00:48:16.599 --> 00:48:19.079
Love it, Andy. I'm so happy to know you, happy

904
00:48:19.079 --> 00:48:20.880
to share you with my listeners and viewers around the world.

905
00:48:21.119 --> 00:48:23.280
And as you heard me say before we got on air,

906
00:48:23.719 --> 00:48:25.639
you're in Boston. I come through Boston. You could get

907
00:48:25.639 --> 00:48:27.320
a knock on your door. So just so you know

908
00:48:27.360 --> 00:48:28.280
you've been forewarned.

909
00:48:28.599 --> 00:48:29.559
Yeah, that sounds good.

910
00:48:30.199 --> 00:48:31.920
All right, listeners and viewers, You've got to learn more

911
00:48:31.920 --> 00:48:34.559
about doctor Andy Malinsky, the work he does helping people

912
00:48:34.599 --> 00:48:37.719
to develop the insights and courage necessary to act outside

913
00:48:37.760 --> 00:48:40.760
their personal and cultural comfort zones, and the various books

914
00:48:40.760 --> 00:48:43.559
that he has written, including Forging Bonds. Start by visiting

915
00:48:43.599 --> 00:48:47.679
his personal website. It's Andymolinsky dot com. Let me spell

916
00:48:47.719 --> 00:48:51.199
that for you A N D y mo l I

917
00:48:51.440 --> 00:48:54.920
N sky Andy Mlinsky dot com. You can also find

918
00:48:55.000 --> 00:48:57.880
him on LinkedIn as well. Last week, if you missed

919
00:48:57.880 --> 00:48:59.599
the live show, you can always catch youv you record

920
00:48:59.599 --> 00:49:02.119
a podcast as whenever or wherever you get your podcast.

921
00:49:02.159 --> 00:49:04.960
We were on air with doctor Raj Sisodia talking about

922
00:49:05.000 --> 00:49:08.079
his latest book, which is number sixteen. It's called Awaken,

923
00:49:08.440 --> 00:49:11.559
The Path to Purpose, Inner Peace and Healing. It was

924
00:49:11.599 --> 00:49:13.480
an incredible honor to have him back on and have

925
00:49:13.599 --> 00:49:16.159
him share so deeply and openly and vulnerably about his

926
00:49:16.280 --> 00:49:18.400
life and all he's gone through to become who he

927
00:49:18.559 --> 00:49:21.719
is today. I dare say you will laugh, cry, and

928
00:49:21.800 --> 00:49:24.679
be inspired by the interview in his book. See you

929
00:49:24.679 --> 00:49:27.599
next week for another vitalizing and uplifting conversation that will

930
00:49:27.599 --> 00:49:30.320
help you more meaningfully connect with your work while providing

931
00:49:30.360 --> 00:49:33.199
insight on creating destination workplaces where people can do the

932
00:49:33.199 --> 00:49:35.960
best work of their lives while becoming the best version

933
00:49:35.960 --> 00:49:38.559
of themselves. See you there. Remember our work is one

934
00:49:38.599 --> 00:49:40.840
of the best adventures and means of realizing our potential

935
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and making the impact we crave. So let's work on Purpose.

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We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to

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tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes,

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each week on W four C. Why Together We'll create

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a world where business operates conscientiously, leadership and inspires and

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passion performance and employees are fulfilled in work that provides

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the meaning and purpose they crave. See you there, Let's

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work on Purpose.