Sept. 30, 2025

Cultivating Followership: Unlocking the Potential of Today’s Teams

Cultivating Followership: Unlocking the Potential of Today’s Teams
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True leadership is not about power or hierarchy—it’s about inspiring others to step into their best selves. In this conversation, Tamra Ryan, longtime CEO and social enterprise leader, reveals 16 timeless lessons on building trust, courage, and shared purpose. We explore how leaders can nurture authentic followership and spark collective achievement that exceeds expectations.

Working on Purpose is broadcast live Tuesdays at 6PM ET and Music on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Working on Purpose is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).

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WEBVTT

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The topics and opinions expressed in the following show are

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solely those of the hosts and their guests and not

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those of W FOURCY Radio. It's employees are affiliates. We

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choosing W FOURCY Radio.

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What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the

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answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose

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at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their

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lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization

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that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their

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highest potential. Business can be such a force for good

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in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide

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guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we

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all want Working on Purpose. Now, here's your host, doctor

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Elise Cortez.

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Welcome back to the Working on Purpose program, which has

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been brought to you with passion and pride since February

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of twenty fifteen. Thanks for tuning again this week. Great

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to have you. I'm your host, doctor A Release Cortes.

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If you don't know me and we haven't met before,

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I'm a workforce advisor, organizational psychologist, management consultant, logo therapists,

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speaker and author. My team and I at Gusto Now

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help companies enliven and fortify their operations by building a dynamic,

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high performance culture, inspirational leadership and nurturing managers activated by

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meaning and purpose. And did you know that inspired employees

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outperform their satisfied peers by a factor of two point

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twenty five to one. In other words, inspiration is good

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for the bottom line. You can learn more about us

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at and how we can work together at gustodashnow dot

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com or my personal site at Lascortes dot com. Getting

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into today's program, we have with us back with us.

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This is our second time. Tamra Ryan a nationally recognized speaker, author,

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and leadership expert who is redefining what it means to

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lead with purpose and compassion. She served as CEO of

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Women's Being Project from two thousand and three to twenty

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twenty five. It's a social enterprise transforming lives through transitional employment.

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And now she now dedicates herself to empowering others to

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become leaders worth following. She's the author of two books,

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one of which we'll be talking about today, Followship Sixteen

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Lessons to Become a Leader Worth Following. She joins us

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today from Denver, Temra. Welcome back to Working on Purpose.

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It's great to see you. It is. Indeed, look at

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this beautiful thing that you put out into the world.

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It's just gorgeous. And I really, as I told you

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in our exchange, is align with everything that you said

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in that book, and so much of it is really

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what I have been trying to teach leaders too in

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my practice. So I'm excited to get into this conversation

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with you. But let's first open for our listeners and

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viewers who don't know you the way that I do.

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Share a bit about where this book came from and

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some of the things you're drawing from from your previous experience.

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Well, it was I think any book is sort of

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a labor of love.

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Definitely, most definitely.

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You definitely don't write a book because it's easy to do,

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and you know, as I was as I led an organization,

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a mission based organization for twenty two years. I know

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that I changed and I became, I believe, a better

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person and a better leader. And while I was learning

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the things that I think made me those things, I

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watched as so many people were either disappointed by the

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leaders they were working with. As a society, we can

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see in the news all the time poor models of leadership,

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and then there were also some models where I'd look

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at people's success and say, Okay, what allowed them to

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become so visionary and to change a culture or to

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change an industry. So I really began thinking about as

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I interacted with the people I worked with, what really

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inspired them to want to be there with me and

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what conversely turned them off. And so I really felt

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like there was an opportunity to write about the things

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that I learned during my experience as CEO of Women's

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Being Project in a way that might save a lot

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of other people time, Because I think the challenge of

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leadership is that you don't go into the job thinking

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knowing exactly how to do it. It put your first

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leadership role and I can't tell you how many people

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just this week I was in a CEO group, and

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to a person, everyone around the room talked about the

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amount of time it took them, and this was in

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years before they actually really became the CEO. And what

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they meant by that was I had to grow into

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the role of learning how to lead, and I didn't

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know how to do it at the beginning.

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And yet none of.

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Us are going to say that when we first are hired,

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because you've just been hired to lead. So the motivation

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of the book really was to say, here's an opportunity

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to save you some time and really get to what

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I think people are looking for today in their leaders.

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You definitely make a really strong case for this lack

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of trust that people have in their leaders, and that

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you make a case for doing leadership differently, and I

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really this is what I really want to embrace. You

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say it's time to turn the focus away from what

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leaders want to give and toward what followers are seeking

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from their leaders, what entices people and enlist them to

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join the leader and accomplishing great things. I call this

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new way of leading followship, and I think.

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That the reason I call it followship is that instead

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of thinking about how do I lead, it is instead

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it is looking at it what inspires somebody to want

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to be there with me. I often joke that if

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you're a leader and you turn around and look behind

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you and no one's there, you're actually not leading. And

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I think too often, almost maybe by definition, leadership is

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a very singular role. When you're leading a company, it's

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very lonely, and often we as a society put the

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leader on the pedestal, especially very public facing leadership roles,

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and as a result, I think that the risk is

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leaders begin to think it's about them. And what I

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often said leading a very prominent social enterprise, that people

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made the decision whether or not to support our organization

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based on meeting me. But the moment I began to

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think it was about me, we were all in trouble.

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It was never about me. It was a role that

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I had in a responsibility. I had to inspire people

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to want to join us on our on our quest

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to change the world. And the same thing goes for

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the people who are working with you. Your job as

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a leader is to inspire people to want to be

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with you to accomplish great things, and to accomplish a

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mission and the purpose of the organization and I think

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this is true whether or not you're leading a mission

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based organization or a for profit organization.

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I completely agree a couple of things. I really want

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to call it. There's so many specific things about your

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work and your book that I really want a position

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for listeners and viewers. So first I want to situate

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and listeners and viewers listen to this carefully. If you're

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a leader, I really want you to listen to this

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and hear this you say in your book camera. Many

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leaders are caught in the gap between where they currently

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sit because of their training background and role models and

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where their followers expect them to be. And that's back

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on thinking that you know there it's about them, but

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I think it's important to call it that they are

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stuck in that gap. And as soon as they can

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they realized that they are stuck in the gap, they

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can do something about that.

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Yes, And I think that everything around them is reinforcing

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where they're stuck and not and not giving them a

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path or even insisting they find a path to be different.

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So I think, you know, you think about our society

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and how we view leaders and how we treat leaders,

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and how we have in some instances sort of a

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heroship worship of leaders, and yet we're very at the

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same time often very turned off by that by when

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someone behaves as though they deserve it, and so we're

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not giving anyone the opportunity to see the path to

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maybe it's a more enlightened leadership of recognizing it's not

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about them. And that's I think why we're stuck is

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because we put leaders on a pedestal, and then we

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resent them for being on that pedestal.

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Yes, and the other thing that I'm so present to

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and I've written about it a little bit in my

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last book, The Great Vitalization, but you speak to it

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quite quite eloquently in your book. You say that leaders

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are learning that the hard way, that the relationship between

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them and their follower has been democratized. Followers now understand

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their power to choose whether or not to stay with

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the leader, and I think that's really important. I think

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for a lot of leaders, especially some of these really

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really high level CEOs of large companies, I think this

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is really really devastating for them.

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I think that is true, it's devastating for them, or

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they blame it on the generational difference.

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Oh, definitely, No, question.

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I've been in so many conversations where the CEO will

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lament uh uh, you know kids these days kind of

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conversation where like what's going on with this next generation

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that's coming up? And what I think is that's that's

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a representation of this gap, is that you know, I

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do think I I came up in my career at

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a time where you you showed up, you just did

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what the leader said, you didn't question it, and there

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was it was maybe a lot more fear based development

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as as a professional. And now so now we have

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leaders who came up during that time who are looking

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to their their younger employees and saying, I don't understand

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why you think you should have a voice here, right?

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And and so in the difference I think when when

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I talk about followship is recognizing I do have a voice,

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because if you want them to come with you, you

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need to hear what they have to say and gosh,

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they might actually have something great to say. But that

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you as a collective will be much more powerful together.

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That this isn't about how strong you are as a leader,

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as a soul leader, This is about your ability to

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again inspire people to want to be there with you,

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and I think I talk about this in the book. Also,

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that doesn't mean that you aren't ultimately the decision maker.

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It means that you are. You are providing a platform

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for people to have voice and ultimately knowing that you're

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making a decision. And so I talk about how to

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communicate those decisions, how to communicate to the followers what

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the process is going to be, how to understand why

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people have resistance because people don't like change. And usually

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leaders like change because they're the ones leading the change. Generally,

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people don't like change because it's being done to them, right,

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So I talked about those kinds of things in the past.

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I think you just as a leader, you implement a change,

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and you sort of said, you know, suck it up

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and come with me, or don't. And I'm really trying

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to make the case that we will. We will be

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better together.

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Yes, completely agree. A couple of things that came up

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from that camera. First, I attended a dinner a few

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weeks ago and there was a gentleman there who had

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mentioned he offered that he was seventy six and had

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worked all over the world, and he was talking about

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today's workforce, and he said he said, these new younger

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people need to learn how to just be quiet, and

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I said, excuse me, sir, with all due respect, I

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completely disagree with you. And we went into a conversation

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about that, and it was just so it's kind of

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along the lines of we we're talking about here. And

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then last night I attended a conscious capitalism event here

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in Dallas and we got into a conversation about the

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speaker was saying that I am a voice for the voiceless,

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and someone else got up into the crowd and said,

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I must, I must be controversial and tell you that

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I used to say that same thing. And she said, now,

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I recognize everyone has a voice, it's just that they

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haven't been able to use it so frequently. And now

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I'm about enabling more people to use that voice, not

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to speak on behalf of others for their voice. And

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so I think there's I think you've really hit on

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something important here. I think that this exasperation is an

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expression of not understanding that that this that we have

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a we are a bigger, fuller workforce of multiple voices

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and generations, and yes, we are better together. So I

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think you've really articulated that really well well.

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Thanks, and and I think also what gets what has

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been lost is that you can and then lists people

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to come with you if they understand where they're going

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and they buy into the vision. And so there is

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a whole section about this idea that your responsibility as

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a leader is to create a vision that those who

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are around you contribute to, but to create a vision

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of where you're going and how much better the world

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is going to be when you accomplish that vision and

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then enless people to come with you. And I think

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too often what happens is the leader does not give

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a lot of thought to that vision, and potentially that

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there is no vision. It's just about shareholder value. And

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so everybody's marching forward, or the leader is hoping everyone

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marches forward to creating this shareholder value that potentially nobody

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but the leader has any interest in helping to create.

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I think that that's that's also what gets lost, is

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that this isn't about a bunch of automatons who are

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going to follow this leader. It's about people being bought

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into where you're.

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Headed, no question, no question. One of things that we

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learned last night, the speaker had been a CEO of

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various companies, and you know, and he's he said that

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for most CEOs, the contract is that they are there

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to serve the company, and they're absolutely set there the

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shareholder that's in their contract. So of course everything that

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they're compensated and incentivized to do has to do serving

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that shareholder. And of course there are all these other

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stakeholders that that are interested in that effort as well,

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and that's a major disconnect. And that came up with

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around the conversation of what did the speaker think about

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us moving from a quarterly earnings to a biennial quarterly

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or earnings set up? And he said, it's not going

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to solve the problem, might even make it worse anyway.

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It's I think that's a really important thing to understand too.

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In the mix of all this year, there's some really

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divided interest here at work that I think need to

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be addressed at some point.

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And I think both divided interest and divide a perspective.

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I talked my book about a meeting where I was

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with a group of women CEOs and that conversation, yes,

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and and the what was so interesting was and I

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so we were going around the table and giving this

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one CEO our advice or input about her concern that

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nobody seemed to work as hard as she did as

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she was building her company, and she didn't understand why

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they didn't put in the hours, et cetera. And I

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just was really struck by how obsessed she it felt

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she was with people but being in their seats, right.

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And so when it came to my turn, I said,

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you know, I I guess it depends on what you want.

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Do you want to be the manager of these people

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or do you want to lead these people? And it

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seems to me, as the leader of the company, you

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want to lead them. And so if they understand where

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you're headed and how they benefit. You know, it was

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a small company, so they would benefit from the success

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of the company. And you have clearly articulated where you're

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all headed, then why does it matter how long and

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how much time their butts are in their seats? And

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it was this moment of for me, it was actually

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a revelation of we say we have leaders and they're

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really just managers right with leader titles?

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Right? I completely agree, and I want to dive more

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into that. Let's grab our first break. I'm your host,

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doctor e Lease Qurtes. We were in the year Timerryan,

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a nationally recognized speaker, author, and leadership expert who was

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redefining what it means to lead with purpose and compassion

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through the concept of followship. We've been talking about some

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of why this is an important topic to talk about

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in today's times. After the break, we're going to get

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into what are the essential characteristics of a strong leader.

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We'll be right back.

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Doctor Elise Cortez is a management consultant specializing in meaning

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and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies

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visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired

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leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and

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commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite

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a lease to speak to your organization, please visit her

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at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get

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your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose

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with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or

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to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to

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Alise A Lisee at elisecortes dot com. Now back to

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working on Purpose.

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Thanks for staying with us and welcome back to Working

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on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Release Cortes as I

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am dedicated to helping create a world where organizations thrive

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because their people thrive are led by inspirational leaders that

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help them find and contribute their greatness. And we do

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business at Betters the World. I keep researching and writing

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my own books. So one of my latest came out

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called The Great Revitalization, How activating meaning and purpose can

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radically enliven your business. And I wrote it in many

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ways to situate what Tamra's also out to do, and

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that is to help leaders understand today's very diverse and

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discerning workforce and what do they want from you as

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a leader and an opportunity an employment experience, and then

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I provide you twenty two best practices to equip you

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to provide that for them. You can find my books

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on m or at my personal site at least quare

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test dot com if you are just now joining us.

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My guest is Tama Ryan. She's the author of Followship

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sixteen Lessons to become a Leader Worth Following. So that

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last spit we were talking about about before the break

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there about are you a manager or a leader? And

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I want to situate that for our leaders because I

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think it's really really important for our listeners to discern

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this because those two words get conflated all the time,

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manager and leader, and they're distinctively different, of course, as

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you and I align, and so to call that out.

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You know, and this person you were helping to counsel,

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she was wanting to tell people how to do their work.

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That's what a manager does. A leader, to your earlier point,

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creates and situates a compelling vision for people to get

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to and they autonomously find the best way to get there,

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with support of course and along the way. And I

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think it's really critical that what you just said is

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I have a client here in Dallas that has about

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one hundred people, and their leader, the president, is absolutely

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this company as a manager. Everything goes through this person.

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So that's important to distinguish.

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I think it's important to distinguish, and I think it's

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not an uncommon gap for people to have. And you

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think about how our careers progress. You know, you start

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as an individual contributor, and often you're hired for your

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knowledge and as we you know, have moved to a

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knowledge world, so you're hired for your knowledge and then

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if you do a good job, and then maybe you're

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you work with a couple other people, and so you're

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kind of a collaborative contributor. And as you keep moving up,

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you become responsible for more and more people's work. That

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is very different than being made a leader, but that's

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a natural progression for people as they continue to move

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up in their career, and nobody really teaches you. Okay,

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I am no longer overseeing work. I'm actually responsible. And

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how I think about it is a manager sort of

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looks looks down and out. So in other words, they're

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looking across the people who are doing the work and

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the work that's being done and the work product that's

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being created. A leader needs to look up and out.

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The leader is focused on the horizon and where the

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group is going. And again, as you said, creating an

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environment and hiring the right people who can figure out

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how to get there. The leader is responsible for the what.

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The team is responsible.

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For the how.

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And I think, well, first of all, I don't think

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anybody teaches you that, and I think over time you

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either learn it or you fail, or you become the

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leader of a company who really a manager.

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Yeah, absolutely, this is just so critical to call out. Now,

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let's contrast that, this is such an interesting concept you

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had in your book when you were talking about discerning

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what really makes for a strong, effective leader, and you

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said that you started asking people the question who in

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your career has so inspired her that you would crawl

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through broken glass to follow them? And you found that

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people would answer in one of two varieties.

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What were they Well, what would happen was that either

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someone got sort of either a concerned look on their face,

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like should I have had somebody like that?

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Does that actually happen?

402
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Yeah? Or they would get this kind of glowy look.

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The interesting thing was if they had had someone like that,

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they knew immediately who it was. There was no question,

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They didn't have to think for a while, and so

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they got this really sort of glowy, proud look and

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then they begin to describe what it was about that

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person that was so special. But I thought it was interesting,

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and I didn't expect this at all, but I thought

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it was interesting. You either didn't ever have anybody like that,

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or you absolutely had someone. But I didn't really talk

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to anybody who had more than one person, which I

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also think is a bit of a statement about the

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state of leadership. Wouldn't it be amazing if, as we

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come up in our careers, if over and over and

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over again we had leaders like that. But no one

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I've spoken with has ever had that.

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Yeah, and I have. I did once upon a time,

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and that was it was really my first boss. And

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so I can appreciate that. And so, of course the answer,

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ladies and gentlemen listening when we talk about what makes

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for a strong effective leader are these sixteen qualities that

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Tama wrote about, which we're going to try to hit

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at least a few of them as we go. But

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I wanted to situate that because how many of you

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have had a leader that you would crawl through glass for?

427
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I mean, gosh, I mean, so I want to talk

428
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about this notion that you that you put in your

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book that I really feel like it's important to discuss,

430
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especially for the female audience members here, And that's this

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idea of being kind versus nice me distinguish those terms

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for us. Yeah.

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So I can't tell you how many times as I've

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been out in the community in situations where there are

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young women, younger women who are earlier in their careers,

436
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who maybe move up into a position and they worry

437
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about whether or not they're liked. They spend a lot

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of time worrying about whether or not they're liked, and

439
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and the word nice comes up a lot. I, you know,

440
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I just want to be nice. And I really think

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what gets lost is nice is about you. It's your

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worry that you're not that you not being perceived, that

443
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you're being perceived as too harsh or.

444
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A bitch.

445
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You know that this is all about You're worried about

446
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how you're being perceived. Kind is about the other person.

447
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And I think that when you make that transition and

448
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you begin to realize that, and Brene Brown says this

449
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very very concisely clear, is kind And when when you

450
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think about when we are worried about being nice, we

451
00:26:33.079 --> 00:26:36.119
beat around the bush. We try to say it, and

452
00:26:36.160 --> 00:26:39.400
we couch and we do the you know, give you

453
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a compliment, say what you really need to say that

454
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it might be kind of harsh, and then give another compliment,

455
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and the person walks away from the conversation not really

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understanding what the message was. Clear, is kind? Nice is

457
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when you're worried about how you are being perceived.

458
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I think that's a very powerful distinguished there. One of

459
00:27:03.480 --> 00:27:06.839
the it's always delightful when I see authors that put

460
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forth what and play with language, and the way that

461
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you do that is gorgeous. And especially I gravitated to

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your word hum vision. Let's talk about then. That really

463
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speaks to what we said before. It's not about you.

464
00:27:19.640 --> 00:27:21.920
So what's hum vision?

465
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Well, I think it's a it's a term that's been

466
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around a little bit, and I'm kind of shocked that

467
00:27:27.799 --> 00:27:29.160
it hasn't gotten more attention.

468
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It's not yours.

469
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I thought it was, Yes, It's the reason it resonated

470
00:27:35.480 --> 00:27:38.119
with me is that the reality is in order to

471
00:27:38.200 --> 00:27:43.599
be willing to lead an organization or division, or to

472
00:27:43.720 --> 00:27:46.039
lead in general, you have to have a certain amount

473
00:27:46.119 --> 00:27:50.119
of ego to be able to do that. And yet

474
00:27:50.200 --> 00:27:53.160
at the same time you always have to be balancing

475
00:27:53.160 --> 00:27:55.559
that with the fact that it's not about you that

476
00:27:55.920 --> 00:27:59.240
and bring the humility to the rule to understand that

477
00:27:59.599 --> 00:28:03.799
my job is as the leader is to bring people

478
00:28:03.880 --> 00:28:07.160
with me. It is not to be the hero or

479
00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:12.160
the savior of this project or this organization, and it's

480
00:28:13.640 --> 00:28:17.480
I think often in a leadership role, one of the

481
00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:21.160
challenges is that you often have to be able to

482
00:28:21.319 --> 00:28:24.119
have the ability to entertain two opposing ideas at the

483
00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:32.559
same time that and be comfortable enough in that cognitive

484
00:28:32.599 --> 00:28:37.400
dissonance to be able to do your work and to

485
00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:41.720
lead the team. And to me, that's what ambition is.

486
00:28:42.079 --> 00:28:44.799
It is this idea that you need to be a

487
00:28:44.839 --> 00:28:48.400
strong leader, you need to have enough sense of yourself

488
00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:51.079
and ego to be able to lead, while at the

489
00:28:51.119 --> 00:28:54.359
same time recognizing that the moment you begin to think

490
00:28:54.359 --> 00:28:58.079
it's actually about you, everybody's in trouble.

491
00:28:58.599 --> 00:29:01.880
Yeah. Yeah. That you go on to say that leaders

492
00:29:01.920 --> 00:29:05.519
had embraced this idea that they give space for the

493
00:29:05.559 --> 00:29:08.799
follower to become the most confident version of themselves while

494
00:29:08.799 --> 00:29:12.119
modeling what's striving to become better looks like. And I

495
00:29:12.119 --> 00:29:16.119
think that's really important for me as somebody who teaches

496
00:29:16.680 --> 00:29:21.440
inspirational leadership, and really the idea that part of a

497
00:29:21.480 --> 00:29:24.759
leader's job is help people realize their greatness. Well, how

498
00:29:24.799 --> 00:29:26.759
do you do that? If you model what better looks

499
00:29:26.839 --> 00:29:29.039
like and you are encouraging them to develop their sense

500
00:29:29.079 --> 00:29:31.400
of self and their confidence, you can help them get there.

501
00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:37.240
Yes, And I think that it's also too often when

502
00:29:37.240 --> 00:29:40.400
someone is struggling, we have a tendency to want to

503
00:29:40.440 --> 00:29:45.960
save them, and when you've saved someone from themselves, you

504
00:29:46.079 --> 00:29:51.359
really haven't helped them help them learn. I talked about

505
00:29:51.559 --> 00:29:55.559
in the book how often I would have a conversation

506
00:29:55.640 --> 00:29:59.799
with myself before going into a challenging a challenging meeting,

507
00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:06.319
or a meeting where someone perhaps wasn't wasn't performing well,

508
00:30:06.599 --> 00:30:08.680
and I would ask myself, am I committed to this

509
00:30:08.720 --> 00:30:12.960
person's success? Because if I am committed to their success,

510
00:30:13.319 --> 00:30:15.160
how I show up to that meeting is going to

511
00:30:15.160 --> 00:30:20.240
look very different and and also defining in my mind

512
00:30:20.359 --> 00:30:25.000
what success looks like, because that's what I need to communicate.

513
00:30:25.039 --> 00:30:28.440
If I'm committed to your success, and I'm clear on

514
00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:31.160
what success looks like, then I can coach you to

515
00:30:31.400 --> 00:30:35.359
get closer to that. And I think too often we

516
00:30:36.759 --> 00:30:42.200
have an expectation of people and we don't necessarily clearly

517
00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:45.000
communicate it, and we say it more general terms like

518
00:30:45.039 --> 00:30:48.440
I just need to do to do your job. And

519
00:30:49.799 --> 00:30:52.880
so maybe I have an idea of what do your

520
00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:55.559
job looks like? And maybe the person I'm saying this

521
00:30:55.640 --> 00:30:57.640
too has an idea of what do your job looks like?

522
00:30:58.119 --> 00:31:01.039
But if you've never had that conversation about what your

523
00:31:01.079 --> 00:31:04.319
expectations are and what do your job does look like?

524
00:31:05.079 --> 00:31:09.359
Then why would you expect to be successful?

525
00:31:09.799 --> 00:31:13.960
Mm hmm. Yeah, there's so much value in learning to

526
00:31:13.960 --> 00:31:17.279
communicate clearly and also helping support people when they need it.

527
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:20.279
Let's grab our last break here. I'm your host, Doctor

528
00:31:20.279 --> 00:31:22.440
Release Cortez, who've been on the air with Taram Ryan,

529
00:31:22.519 --> 00:31:25.640
a nationally recognized speaker, author, and leadership expert who is

530
00:31:25.720 --> 00:31:28.200
redefining what it means to lead with purpose and compassion

531
00:31:28.279 --> 00:31:31.440
through her concept of followship. We've been talking about some

532
00:31:31.480 --> 00:31:34.200
of the nuances of really being an effective leader. Today.

533
00:31:34.200 --> 00:31:36.359
We're going to continue the conversation after the break. We'll

534
00:31:36.400 --> 00:31:36.920
be right back.

535
00:31:52.599 --> 00:31:56.160
Doctor Release Cortez is a management consultant specializing in meaning

536
00:31:56.200 --> 00:31:59.960
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author. She helps companies

537
00:32:00.119 --> 00:32:03.880
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired

538
00:32:03.960 --> 00:32:07.920
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and

539
00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:11.240
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite

540
00:32:11.240 --> 00:32:14.240
Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her at

541
00:32:14.240 --> 00:32:17.480
Elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your

542
00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:26.319
employees working on purpose. This is Working on Purpose with

543
00:32:26.440 --> 00:32:29.640
doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or to

544
00:32:29.680 --> 00:32:32.759
open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Alise

545
00:32:33.079 --> 00:32:38.400
a Lise at Elisecortes dot com. Now back to Working

546
00:32:38.480 --> 00:32:39.160
on Purpose.

547
00:32:44.200 --> 00:32:46.000
Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to Working

548
00:32:46.039 --> 00:32:48.680
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes. As you

549
00:32:48.720 --> 00:32:50.920
know by now, this program is dedicated to empowering and

550
00:32:50.960 --> 00:32:53.680
inspiring you along your journey to realize more of your potential.

551
00:32:54.079 --> 00:32:55.599
If you will learn more about how we can work

552
00:32:55.599 --> 00:32:58.160
together and learn about the Gustro Now Academy for leaders

553
00:32:58.160 --> 00:33:00.880
and individuals on various journeys alike, make your way to

554
00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:04.039
Gusto dashdown dot com and then navigate to the training

555
00:33:04.039 --> 00:33:06.279
tap and you'll find it there if you are just

556
00:33:06.319 --> 00:33:09.960
now joining us. My guest is the author of Followship

557
00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:13.039
sixteen authors to Become a Leader worth Following. That's Tama

558
00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:15.400
Ryan So, Tama. One of the things I want to

559
00:33:15.400 --> 00:33:16.960
get into next or is a couple of pieces. There's

560
00:33:17.319 --> 00:33:19.799
several of the lessons that are really especially poignant for me.

561
00:33:19.880 --> 00:33:21.680
But I want to talk about one of the next

562
00:33:21.720 --> 00:33:24.359
and that is the idea that your word is your bond.

563
00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:27.319
How critical this is, and especially you say that a

564
00:33:27.400 --> 00:33:30.160
leader worth following holds themselves to a higher standard for

565
00:33:30.200 --> 00:33:32.319
their accountability than they do others.

566
00:33:35.119 --> 00:33:39.839
Well, I think that this is one that probably we

567
00:33:39.920 --> 00:33:43.319
could almost anyone in our country today could look around

568
00:33:43.480 --> 00:33:50.480
and say that we're disappointed with our leaders because they

569
00:33:50.559 --> 00:34:00.359
don't espouse this view. I think that this idea of

570
00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:03.519
understanding both the weight of your words, that when you're

571
00:34:03.559 --> 00:34:07.440
in a leadership role and people begin to have respect

572
00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:11.079
for you in that role, they're paying attention to everything

573
00:34:11.119 --> 00:34:16.920
that you say. Yes, And I think that depending on

574
00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:19.800
the type of person we are, and I am, I'm

575
00:34:19.800 --> 00:34:25.079
an ideator, So I like to say, I wonder if

576
00:34:26.079 --> 00:34:30.119
such and such, you know, might work, or I might

577
00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:35.599
if I if I don't watch myself, I might say

578
00:34:35.639 --> 00:34:38.280
something that's sort of a throwaway thing, or I might

579
00:34:38.400 --> 00:34:41.480
try on an opinion for size, just like do I,

580
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:44.119
you know, say something and then wonder do I really

581
00:34:44.880 --> 00:34:47.920
believe that? And what I've learned over time is that

582
00:34:48.119 --> 00:34:52.360
first of all, you're the everyone is paying attention to

583
00:34:52.400 --> 00:34:58.880
your words, and and if you're not careful enough, they

584
00:34:58.920 --> 00:35:02.079
will take your words and run with them, both in

585
00:35:02.119 --> 00:35:05.639
good ways and bad ways. And so I would preface

586
00:35:05.679 --> 00:35:08.400
it by saying that's the first part of that lesson.

587
00:35:08.840 --> 00:35:11.280
The second is that when you say you're going to

588
00:35:11.320 --> 00:35:16.320
do something, because your words carry so much weight, people

589
00:35:16.360 --> 00:35:20.880
are going to take you for your word, and then

590
00:35:20.920 --> 00:35:23.480
they're going to pay attention to whether or not you

591
00:35:23.559 --> 00:35:26.360
did what you said you were going to do. And

592
00:35:26.920 --> 00:35:30.840
that could be things as simple as I'm going to

593
00:35:30.880 --> 00:35:35.119
talk to Joe about this situation and then getting busy

594
00:35:35.519 --> 00:35:39.039
or wanting to avoid conflict and not actually having the

595
00:35:39.039 --> 00:35:42.599
conversation with Joe that you might not think as a

596
00:35:42.679 --> 00:35:45.239
leader that's that big of a deal, like, oh, I'll

597
00:35:45.239 --> 00:35:49.079
get to it eventually. The person you've made that commitment

598
00:35:49.079 --> 00:35:52.440
to thinks it's a big deal. And I think we

599
00:35:53.000 --> 00:35:56.880
forget that people are paying close attention to what we

600
00:35:56.920 --> 00:36:00.360
say and close attention to what we say we will do,

601
00:36:01.159 --> 00:36:05.719
and we don't think of our word as being things

602
00:36:05.719 --> 00:36:09.159
that we say as being a commitment often enough, and

603
00:36:09.199 --> 00:36:14.280
we're surrounded I think by people in really every sector

604
00:36:14.599 --> 00:36:16.960
who don't see their word as their bond.

605
00:36:18.239 --> 00:36:20.360
Completely agree, and that's one of the reasons I wanted

606
00:36:20.360 --> 00:36:22.440
to you to talk about this specific lesson. And one

607
00:36:22.480 --> 00:36:25.079
thing I would say, listeners and viewers is in my

608
00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:28.119
work with leaders, what I have discovered the same thing

609
00:36:28.159 --> 00:36:30.440
that Tammer's talking about over and over again. People are saying,

610
00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:33.119
we don't trust the leader because they don't follow through

611
00:36:33.159 --> 00:36:35.159
what they said they're going to do. And I think

612
00:36:35.199 --> 00:36:38.400
it's oftentimes as simple as not having a system to

613
00:36:38.480 --> 00:36:40.960
capture what you said you were going to do. Right,

614
00:36:41.000 --> 00:36:42.760
and you said you were going to have a conversation

615
00:36:42.840 --> 00:36:45.039
with Joe, but you completely slipped your mind as you

616
00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:47.360
ran to the next meeting. And I think that part

617
00:36:47.400 --> 00:36:49.559
of the opportunity here is just to simply find a

618
00:36:49.599 --> 00:36:53.400
way to really really hold yourself accountable by capturing for

619
00:36:53.440 --> 00:36:55.199
yourself what you said you were going to do.

620
00:36:56.719 --> 00:37:01.119
Well, you know, it's funny you'd say that, And I've

621
00:37:01.239 --> 00:37:05.239
just flashed to any number of one on one conversations

622
00:37:05.239 --> 00:37:08.559
I would have with my direct reports, and in that conversation,

623
00:37:08.760 --> 00:37:12.079
often what would come out of it is I would

624
00:37:12.159 --> 00:37:17.239
say something like, well, let me look into that file

625
00:37:17.320 --> 00:37:20.239
and see if I can find that history, or let

626
00:37:20.320 --> 00:37:23.360
me find so and so's phone numbers so that you

627
00:37:23.400 --> 00:37:26.840
can call them, whatever, very simple things, but I would

628
00:37:26.920 --> 00:37:30.719
never say it and not write it down. So I

629
00:37:30.719 --> 00:37:33.760
would sit in that meeting, and you know, of course

630
00:37:33.800 --> 00:37:35.760
I would go into all of those one on ones

631
00:37:35.800 --> 00:37:39.159
prepared for the topics that I wanted to discuss and

632
00:37:39.239 --> 00:37:41.960
check in on. But I would never walk out of

633
00:37:41.960 --> 00:37:45.159
that meeting without having written that down on the list

634
00:37:45.199 --> 00:37:47.559
of things that I had to do. And I think

635
00:37:47.679 --> 00:37:52.599
something as simple as that keeps you accountable. I also

636
00:37:52.639 --> 00:37:55.920
think sometimes we miss the fact as leaders, we miss

637
00:37:55.960 --> 00:38:01.239
the fact that we hold and you talked about this

638
00:38:01.480 --> 00:38:06.639
before the break, that we hold everyone accountable, but are

639
00:38:06.679 --> 00:38:10.599
we holding ourselves accountable? Two? I believe we need to

640
00:38:10.599 --> 00:38:13.760
hold our selves accountable, even to a higher standard, But

641
00:38:14.199 --> 00:38:17.760
I think too often we're so focused on holding everyone

642
00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:20.239
else accountable we haven't given a lot of thought to

643
00:38:20.280 --> 00:38:24.960
how we're holding ourselves accountable in the same or even

644
00:38:25.000 --> 00:38:26.000
a more rigorous way.

645
00:38:26.400 --> 00:38:29.519
Yeah, Agreed's such an opportunity. Some of that is just

646
00:38:29.559 --> 00:38:31.639
self awareness and having a system to be able to

647
00:38:31.639 --> 00:38:34.400
do that. But one of the things that you mentioned

648
00:38:34.400 --> 00:38:36.199
earlier that I definitely wanted to talk about when you

649
00:38:36.239 --> 00:38:37.960
were talking about the example of you know, I'm going

650
00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:41.599
to talk circle back with Joe, as you said something

651
00:38:41.599 --> 00:38:44.440
about you know, maybe you're running from conflict or afraid

652
00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:47.159
of conflict. And I think this is a critical one.

653
00:38:47.199 --> 00:38:49.000
This is some one of your lessons here not to

654
00:38:49.079 --> 00:38:51.239
run away from conflicts. So let's talk about that one.

655
00:38:52.320 --> 00:38:56.360
Well, she smiles when I say that, Yeah, really likes

656
00:38:56.440 --> 00:39:01.800
conflict and yet at the same time and in conflict,

657
00:39:01.840 --> 00:39:03.239
I think in our minds.

658
00:39:03.840 --> 00:39:07.760
Uh, you know, that is multiple levels. It can be

659
00:39:07.800 --> 00:39:12.320
something as simple as that you need to have a

660
00:39:12.360 --> 00:39:15.960
tough conversation with someone that's going to be a message

661
00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:19.719
that's really hard to deliver. I mean that's one version

662
00:39:19.840 --> 00:39:25.400
of that, and I agree it's it is way more

663
00:39:26.639 --> 00:39:32.320
way easier from a mental anguish standpoint to avoid having

664
00:39:32.360 --> 00:39:33.480
hard conversations.

665
00:39:34.159 --> 00:39:38.440
Uh. And and to ignore.

666
00:39:38.320 --> 00:39:43.599
The subtle cues that there there's something going on. But

667
00:39:43.760 --> 00:39:47.960
I guarantee that if things not addressed, will blow up,

668
00:39:48.599 --> 00:39:51.320
and they'll and blow up. Might not be a big

669
00:39:51.400 --> 00:39:54.760
dramatic thing, but you will lose good team members, you

670
00:39:54.840 --> 00:40:01.519
will lose credibility, you will lose profitable uh. And So

671
00:40:02.400 --> 00:40:06.320
having being willing to have the hard conversations and being

672
00:40:06.400 --> 00:40:13.639
willing to address conflict in a productive, non confrontational way

673
00:40:13.880 --> 00:40:17.599
is is probably one of the most important skills you

674
00:40:18.320 --> 00:40:25.880
anyone as a leader can can learn and I often

675
00:40:25.960 --> 00:40:29.960
I think that often what happens is that it's never

676
00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:32.639
as bad as we imagine it to be. It's the

677
00:40:32.719 --> 00:40:37.320
avoidance of it that that that makes it seem bigger.

678
00:40:38.039 --> 00:40:40.519
I also in the book, I talk about a situation

679
00:40:40.760 --> 00:40:43.840
that UH that occurred where I knew and it was

680
00:40:43.880 --> 00:40:48.599
a huge conflict with multiple team members, and I knew

681
00:40:48.639 --> 00:40:52.559
in that situation I was not equipped to address it,

682
00:40:53.480 --> 00:40:55.440
but I didn't want to avoid it. That there was

683
00:40:55.519 --> 00:41:00.559
no scenario in which avoiding addressing it was was a

684
00:41:00.599 --> 00:41:04.119
good solution. So in that situation, I actually brought someone

685
00:41:04.199 --> 00:41:08.320
in to help with it. So I guess I don't

686
00:41:08.320 --> 00:41:12.639
want to come across as saying that a leader must

687
00:41:12.679 --> 00:41:16.719
always know how to handle the conflict, because I don't

688
00:41:16.760 --> 00:41:20.880
think that that's realistic. I think we all bring our

689
00:41:21.039 --> 00:41:25.599
own baggage to our work situations, and when you put

690
00:41:25.639 --> 00:41:29.199
a group of people together, sometimes it conflates into something

691
00:41:29.280 --> 00:41:31.800
much bigger than you, as a leader can handle. The

692
00:41:31.880 --> 00:41:36.559
key is recognizing it's when it's your role to address it,

693
00:41:36.639 --> 00:41:39.840
and when perhaps you need to get some help to

694
00:41:39.880 --> 00:41:43.159
address it. But the whole point of it is not

695
00:41:43.239 --> 00:41:44.320
addressing It's not a.

696
00:41:44.320 --> 00:41:47.519
Choice, right, right, And just quickly on that. There's so

697
00:41:47.599 --> 00:41:49.719
much we could say about this, but even just understanding

698
00:41:49.760 --> 00:41:53.280
how you relate to conflict yourself, Thomas Killman's five styles

699
00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:55.239
can help you with that. And when you start looking

700
00:41:55.280 --> 00:41:58.000
at what's the source of the conflict. Is this about values?

701
00:41:58.119 --> 00:41:59.880
Is this about the process of work that we're trying

702
00:41:59.880 --> 00:42:02.840
to to accomplish. There is this about power or status?

703
00:42:02.920 --> 00:42:06.119
Is it about the relationship? That just really helps to

704
00:42:06.199 --> 00:42:09.519
start to make the conversation much more productive right out

705
00:42:09.519 --> 00:42:10.199
of the gate.

706
00:42:10.840 --> 00:42:13.159
Well exactly, And I do talk about that in the

707
00:42:13.159 --> 00:42:17.719
book of Really a lot of the book is about

708
00:42:17.760 --> 00:42:21.079
knowing thyself, you know, with the theory of theory being

709
00:42:21.199 --> 00:42:24.599
that when you know yourself you can show up as

710
00:42:24.679 --> 00:42:29.840
a better leader, but also really getting more in tune

711
00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:33.079
with the people who you work with so that you

712
00:42:33.119 --> 00:42:39.880
really understand the perspective they bring to conflict, to work.

713
00:42:41.559 --> 00:42:42.480
To success.

714
00:42:43.440 --> 00:42:43.639
You know.

715
00:42:44.400 --> 00:42:46.840
At Women's Being Projects, I worked in an environment where

716
00:42:46.880 --> 00:42:50.800
there were many people who were just we're more afraid

717
00:42:50.840 --> 00:42:57.800
of success than failure because they failure was familiar. Success

718
00:42:57.880 --> 00:43:04.079
began to create is comfort because it said things like, well,

719
00:43:04.119 --> 00:43:06.199
they're going to hold me to a higher standard. Now

720
00:43:07.639 --> 00:43:11.360
when I failed. Everybody knew, you know, to expect that

721
00:43:11.480 --> 00:43:15.400
of me, and so even understanding that of the people

722
00:43:15.519 --> 00:43:18.519
I worked with was super helpful in terms of how

723
00:43:18.599 --> 00:43:24.400
I could work with them and how I could better

724
00:43:24.519 --> 00:43:25.920
frame their behavior.

725
00:43:28.480 --> 00:43:31.119
Yes, and in many ways, what you've been just discussing

726
00:43:31.159 --> 00:43:34.159
there really does speak to in smacks of emotional intelligence,

727
00:43:34.159 --> 00:43:37.679
which we really can't go a day without hearing that phrase. However,

728
00:43:37.760 --> 00:43:39.920
what I would say is that many people really don't

729
00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:43.000
understand what that entails. One, they don't understand that if

730
00:43:43.000 --> 00:43:46.000
you look at the Goldman model, the four aspects of it.

731
00:43:46.199 --> 00:43:48.119
But part of what you also talk about is how

732
00:43:48.159 --> 00:43:52.480
important it is for leaders to understand and correctly label

733
00:43:52.559 --> 00:43:56.199
their own feelings before they can even be adapt at

734
00:43:56.199 --> 00:43:57.719
helping others connect with their own.

735
00:43:58.280 --> 00:44:02.320
Yeah. I talk in the book about and this was,

736
00:44:02.360 --> 00:44:05.519
you know, part of a personal evolution for me. But

737
00:44:07.039 --> 00:44:09.400
this happens to us all the time. And I think

738
00:44:09.440 --> 00:44:12.639
your listeners will be able to relate things happen around

739
00:44:12.760 --> 00:44:17.400
us and we have responses, you know, we have emotional responses.

740
00:44:17.480 --> 00:44:21.800
I think that's not uncommon. What is uncommon, though, is

741
00:44:22.199 --> 00:44:25.360
taking a step back and saying, gosh, why did I

742
00:44:25.719 --> 00:44:28.360
why does that make me so mad? What is that

743
00:44:28.559 --> 00:44:31.119
situation reminding me of or what is that bringing up

744
00:44:31.119 --> 00:44:34.480
for me? And taking that next step to really understand

745
00:44:34.599 --> 00:44:39.519
why you have that emotional response before you react or

746
00:44:39.679 --> 00:44:45.199
act is probably one of the most important skills relative

747
00:44:45.239 --> 00:44:49.119
to emotional intelligence that I've learned personally, and just getting

748
00:44:49.199 --> 00:44:52.440
in touch with Holy cow, that really kind of ticks

749
00:44:52.480 --> 00:44:56.239
me off, what's going on for me? Not We have

750
00:44:56.320 --> 00:44:59.039
a tendency I think as humans to say you really

751
00:44:59.079 --> 00:45:03.280
made me mad instead of saying, huh, that really actually

752
00:45:03.320 --> 00:45:05.360
kind of made me mad. I wonder what's going on

753
00:45:05.440 --> 00:45:09.840
for me that, what does that trigger for me? And

754
00:45:09.880 --> 00:45:13.320
that isn't about being all, you know, all up in

755
00:45:13.360 --> 00:45:19.199
our feelings. It's really having this self awareness of understanding

756
00:45:19.280 --> 00:45:22.559
why we behave or react in a way to the

757
00:45:22.679 --> 00:45:27.559
external environment, because most of the time, you know, it's

758
00:45:27.599 --> 00:45:31.480
sort of bringing our middle school selves to our adult lives,

759
00:45:31.800 --> 00:45:34.239
which is, you know, in middle school, you think everybody's

760
00:45:34.320 --> 00:45:38.199
looking at your stupid haircut or your you know, your

761
00:45:38.320 --> 00:45:41.800
pants that your mom made you wear or whatever. And really,

762
00:45:42.360 --> 00:45:44.639
as we get older, what we should begin to realize

763
00:45:44.679 --> 00:45:46.679
is the fact of the matter is most people aren't

764
00:45:46.679 --> 00:45:50.239
thinking about us at allst of the time, and they're

765
00:45:51.199 --> 00:45:54.320
doing things not to make you mad or to make

766
00:45:54.360 --> 00:45:57.000
you upset. They're doing things because of their own reasons

767
00:45:57.000 --> 00:45:59.559
why they do things. And in the same way that

768
00:45:59.599 --> 00:46:02.360
we need to understand why we're responding in the way

769
00:46:02.400 --> 00:46:07.440
that we are. It's not being done to us being

770
00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:11.719
it is being done and we're having feelings about it.

771
00:46:13.480 --> 00:46:15.400
Yeah, And to bring this point home, I'm sure many

772
00:46:15.440 --> 00:46:17.199
the listeners and viewers are like, yeah, huh, yeah, I

773
00:46:17.239 --> 00:46:19.039
got all that. I know, all that makes complete sense.

774
00:46:19.360 --> 00:46:21.519
And then let's just throw some numbers at you, ladies

775
00:46:21.519 --> 00:46:27.760
and gentlemen. You quote an organizational psychologist, Tasha Urick in

776
00:46:27.800 --> 00:46:30.039
your book and who says that ninety five percent of

777
00:46:30.079 --> 00:46:33.440
people believe they are self aware, ninety five percent, but

778
00:46:33.559 --> 00:46:36.880
only ten to fifteen percent actually fit the criteria of

779
00:46:36.960 --> 00:46:40.280
being self aware. I think this is really important, right,

780
00:46:40.320 --> 00:46:41.920
you know, we're not nearly as with it as we

781
00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:42.559
think we are.

782
00:46:43.119 --> 00:46:45.760
Well, yes, and that goes back to the ego part, right,

783
00:46:46.960 --> 00:46:53.000
So it's the one question I would ask is is

784
00:46:53.119 --> 00:46:57.679
the ninety five percent comes from the ambition, right and

785
00:46:57.719 --> 00:47:01.679
a ten to fifteen percent really comes when humility actually.

786
00:47:01.320 --> 00:47:03.559
Ends up being combined with that.

787
00:47:05.880 --> 00:47:09.599
I thought that that was fascinating because if you think

788
00:47:09.639 --> 00:47:14.119
about that and how that's showing up leaders walking around

789
00:47:14.280 --> 00:47:18.840
and their companies ninety five percent thinking they've got it

790
00:47:18.880 --> 00:47:23.639
going on, and really only ten to fifteen percent actually do.

791
00:47:24.920 --> 00:47:27.960
No wonder people are quitting their jobs or not inspired

792
00:47:27.960 --> 00:47:30.400
by their leaders, or not trusting their leaders.

793
00:47:30.880 --> 00:47:34.719
Right right, Oh, so important. I'm so glad that you're

794
00:47:34.760 --> 00:47:37.840
on this next venture of your life. I'm so grateful

795
00:47:37.920 --> 00:47:40.199
that I got to read your book. As as I

796
00:47:40.239 --> 00:47:43.079
said too, I'm completely aligned with this. So much of

797
00:47:43.119 --> 00:47:44.760
this is what I've been trying to teach as well.

798
00:47:44.840 --> 00:47:48.320
So now we're locking arms. We're doing this together. You know,

799
00:47:48.360 --> 00:47:50.239
the show's listened by people around the world who are

800
00:47:50.239 --> 00:47:54.119
trying to develop their leadership. They're trying to find companies

801
00:47:54.159 --> 00:47:56.800
that will help them realize their greatness. What would you

802
00:47:56.840 --> 00:47:57.800
like to leave them with today?

803
00:47:59.199 --> 00:48:04.920
Well, I think that when we think about leadership as

804
00:48:04.920 --> 00:48:08.440
a journey, not a destination, then that opens us up

805
00:48:08.480 --> 00:48:14.079
to a continuous improvement and then we will never entirely

806
00:48:14.119 --> 00:48:18.000
be there, But gosh, how fulfilling to wake up every

807
00:48:18.079 --> 00:48:22.480
day and try and so, you know, I invite people

808
00:48:22.519 --> 00:48:25.960
to read the book it's available and it can be

809
00:48:26.079 --> 00:48:29.079
ordered at any bookstore. It's also available on Amazon and

810
00:48:29.159 --> 00:48:33.199
it's also available in the kindle version. But really, think

811
00:48:33.280 --> 00:48:37.400
of this your leadership as your journey. Is what I'd

812
00:48:37.400 --> 00:48:40.679
like to leave with is that it really isn't a destination.

813
00:48:40.840 --> 00:48:43.199
There's not a day I think that you wake up

814
00:48:43.239 --> 00:48:47.559
and say, oh I got it. Instead, there's all there

815
00:48:47.559 --> 00:48:48.599
are always new things to.

816
00:48:48.679 --> 00:48:52.159
Learn, completely agree, which is why I continue to champion

817
00:48:52.280 --> 00:48:55.599
lifelong learning. Tamra. It's a delight to know you. Thanks

818
00:48:55.639 --> 00:48:57.199
for coming back on to working a purpose.

819
00:48:58.119 --> 00:48:59.880
I'm delighted to be here. Thank you, Alise.

820
00:49:00.679 --> 00:49:03.480
Listeners and interviewers, you're want to learn more about Tamara Ryan,

821
00:49:03.800 --> 00:49:06.360
her book, Followship, and her the work that she's doing

822
00:49:06.360 --> 00:49:10.039
to elevate leaders, visit her website tam Ryan dot com.

823
00:49:10.119 --> 00:49:12.400
Let me spell that for you. Tamra is t A

824
00:49:12.719 --> 00:49:16.679
M R A Ryan R y A N Tamra Ryan

825
00:49:16.719 --> 00:49:19.280
dot com. Last week, if you missed the live show,

826
00:49:19.280 --> 00:49:21.719
you can always catch it via recorded podcast. We were

827
00:49:21.719 --> 00:49:24.480
on air with Elizabeth Weingarten talking about her new book,

828
00:49:24.639 --> 00:49:26.880
How To Fall in Love with Questions, A New Way

829
00:49:26.920 --> 00:49:30.119
to Thrive in Times of Uncertainty. We talked about how

830
00:49:30.199 --> 00:49:33.719
to use questions to help us when we feel stuck, powerless,

831
00:49:33.800 --> 00:49:36.400
or drained, and unlock self discovery to help us feel

832
00:49:36.400 --> 00:49:40.119
fully alive while working through uncertainty. Next week will be

833
00:49:40.159 --> 00:49:42.639
on the air with Wes Adams talking about his book

834
00:49:43.079 --> 00:49:46.639
Meaningful Work, how to ignite passion and performance in every employee.

835
00:49:46.840 --> 00:49:49.000
See you then, and together, let's lean in and learn

836
00:49:49.199 --> 00:49:51.920
how to make work workplaces work for everyone and find

837
00:49:51.920 --> 00:49:54.199
ways to do business in a way that betters the world.

838
00:49:54.440 --> 00:49:55.599
Let's work on Purpose.

839
00:49:58.679 --> 00:50:01.320
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to

840
00:50:01.360 --> 00:50:05.000
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes,

841
00:50:05.119 --> 00:50:08.440
each week on W four CY. Together we'll create a

842
00:50:08.480 --> 00:50:13.079
world where business operates conscientiously, Leadership inspires and passion performance,

843
00:50:13.199 --> 00:50:15.960
and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning

844
00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:19.800
and purpose they crave. See you there, Let's work on Purpose.